From: cjacquet@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: first bitmap interface? Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 08:22:34 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 8 Message-ID: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 153.37.88.184 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Nov 08 07:14:22 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.05 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x2.dejanews.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 153.37.88.184 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news.tele2.nl!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail What was the first interface that used bitmap? I am having such a hard time finding this in web pages, either history is about computers or computer graphics in advanced 3-d form. help! thanks. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own ###### From: huge@nospam.demon.co.uk (Hugh Davies) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Date: 8 Nov 1998 11:36:10 GMT Organization: Piglet's Pickles and Preserves Message-ID: <723vna$4fc@axalotl.demon.co.uk> References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Reply-To: huge@nospam.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: axalotl.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: axalotl.demon.co.uk:158.152.24.143 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 910526451 nnrp-11:1419 NO-IDENT axalotl.demon.co.uk:158.152.24.143 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net x-no-archive: yes Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!btnet-peer!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!axalotl.demon.co.uk!axalotl!usenet In article <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, cjacquet@my-dejanews.com writes: >What was the first interface that used bitmap? I am >having such a hard time finding this in web pages, >either history is about computers or computer >graphics in advanced 3-d form. >help! thanks. Possibly the SmallTalk system at Xerox PARC. Possibly the Athena system. -- "The road to Paradise is through Intercourse." The uk.transport FAQ; http://www.axalotl.demon.co.uk/transport/FAQ.html [Substitute "axalotl" for "nospam" to email me] ###### From: jones@cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Date: 8 Nov 1998 17:02:43 GMT Organization: The University of Iowa Lines: 31 Message-ID: <724irj$e8q$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!NewsNG.Chicago.Qual.Net!news.uiowa.edu!not-for-mail From article <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, by cjacquet@my-dejanews.com: > What was the first interface that used bitmap? Bitmaps were common in the days of Williams tube memory. For your typical 40 bit-per-word machine with 4K bits of memory, the main memory would consist of 40 Williams tubes, each of which was, conceptually, a 64 by 64 pixel bitmap display. It was fairly common to slave an auxiliary CRT to one of the Williams tubes in order to view this display (the actual tubes were inconvenient to view because they had an electrode (frequently copper window-screen) glued over the screen. These auxiliary CRT's were there for memory diagnostic purposes, but once you hang a display on a computer, users will start writing software to use it, and that happened very early on. A specific example I remember seeing in a textbook involved a computer where, fortunately for display purposes, the sign bit of instruction words was ignored. If the auxiliary CRT was set up to display the sign bit of the memory, therefore, all 4K pixels were available for plotting, so long as the program always ignored the sign bit on all the data words it manipulated. I've seen photos of histograms and other scientific data plots taken off the scope on this machine. For a more recent data point, the DEC PDP-8 certainly offered a bit-map display option, as an operating mode of the VT8E display option. The VT8E was a DMA interface that generated video output from the contents of memory, and it had at least two operating modes, one to generate text and one to use memory as a bitmap. This was in the early 1970's. Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu ###### From: atwoodj@bronze.CS.ORST.EDU (John Atwood) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Date: 9 Nov 1998 00:54:30 GMT Organization: Oregon State University, College of Engineering Lines: 14 Message-ID: <725eg6$qbo$1@news.NERO.NET> References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <723vna$4fc@axalotl.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: bronze.cs.orst.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!isdnet!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.nero.net!atwoodj how about Sutherland's Sketchpad in 1963? John Atwood >In article <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, cjacquet@my-dejanews.com writes: >>What was the first interface that used bitmap? I am >>having such a hard time finding this in web pages, >>either history is about computers or computer >>graphics in advanced 3-d form. >>help! thanks. Hugh Davies wrote: >Possibly the SmallTalk system at Xerox PARC. >Possibly the Athena system. ###### From: dpeschel@u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Date: 9 Nov 1998 01:16:57 GMT Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Lines: 26 Message-ID: <725fq9$mfc$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <723vna$4fc@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <725eg6$qbo$1@news.NERO.NET> NNTP-Posting-Host: saul4.u.washington.edu X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 910574217 23020 (None) 140.142.17.38 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-User: dpeschel Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!btnet-peer!btnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!192.220.250.21!netnews1.nw.verio.net!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!dpeschel In article <725eg6$qbo$1@news.NERO.NET>, John Atwood wrote: > >how about Sutherland's Sketchpad in 1963? > >John Atwood That's an interesting claim. I was going to disagree (because it gave you only a vector-graphics interface) but then I remembered that it used a display list of points. I don't know if you could trick it into displaying real bitmap images (with arbitrary points on or off). I doubt that would have looked very good -- wasn't the display designed to have adjacent points bleed into each other? And in any case, you would have been limited to small bitmaps. I guess I would not nominate Sketchpad since it didn't provide the abstraction of bitmaps to the user. Now I could nominate Whirlwind and/or SAGE, since they *did* provide the user with a way to toggle specific bits. I just saw a picture of this (a plot of a sine wave using clearly separated points, with bitmapped labels) -- I think it was Whirlwind, not SAGE. And I don't remember where the picture was. -- Derek ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: eric@fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? X-Nntp-Posting-Host: fudge.uchicago.edu Message-ID: Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) X-Newsposter: Pnews 4.0-test51 (15 Jan 97) Organization: The University of Chicago References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <723vna$4fc@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <725eg6$qbo$1@news.NERO.NET> <725fq9$mfc$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 18:08:35 GMT Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail D. Peschel wrote: > Now I could nominate Whirlwind and/or SAGE, since they *did* provide the user > with a way to toggle specific bits. I just saw a picture of this (a plot of a > sine wave using clearly separated points, with bitmapped labels) -- I think > it was Whirlwind, not SAGE. And I don't remember where the picture was. It may not be the same thing you're thinking of, but there are some figures like this accompanying J.C.R. Licklider and Welden E. Clark's paper, "On-Line Man-Computer Communication", in the Proceedings of the 1962 Spring Joint Computer Conference. My copy isn't good enough to tell whether individual dots are visible in the parabola plot figures, but you can definitely make them out in the bar and line plots (figs. 3 and 5) and the architectural drawing (fig. 4). (Actually, I imagine these were plotted point by point rather than from a bitmap, but it's still an example of a picture made out of points in a grid.) eric ###### From: Dan Strychalski Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Date: 10 Nov 1998 11:12:31 GMT Organization: Cameo Communications, Inc. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <72972v$k41$1@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.72.104.4 Originator: dski@ Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!spring.edu.tw!feeder.seed.net.tw!news.seed.net.tw!!dski Quoth cjacquet@my-dejanews.com in : > What was the first interface that used bitmap? I am having such a hard > time finding this in web pages, either history is about computers or > computer graphics in advanced 3-d form. According to the article "Computer Graphics," by Andries van Dam of Brown University, in the _Encyclopedia of Computer Science and Engineering_, Second Edition (Anthony Ralston, editor, Edwin D. Reilly, Jr., associate editor; copyright 1983 Van Nostrand Reinhold Company Inc., ISBN 0-442-24496-7), Whirlwind, SAGE, SketchPad, an unnamed early General Motors design system, Itek's (later CDC's) Digigraphic system, and the IBM 2250 (which was based on GM's design) all used "_vector_, stroke, or calligraphic" displays. Tektronix's development of the direct-view storage tube (DVST) in the late 1960s helped make interactive graphics (still vector-based) affordable. Bitmapped graphics are referred to in the article as _raster graphics_. I quote: The mid-1970s development likely to contribute most to the development of the field [of computer graphics] is that of cheap raster graphics based on television technology. [...] The storage needed is greatly increased [....] On the other hand, the actual display of the simple image can now be handled by very cheap, absolutely standard television technology. [...] The development that made raster graphics possible was that of very cheap solid-state memory [....] Dan Strychalski dski at cameonet, cameo, com, tw (no _x_) Apologies for the anti-spam devices and non-threading newsreader. ###### Message-ID: <3648B343.D9993C99@zen.co.uk> From: "Alan J. Wylie" Organization: X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 36 Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:42:27 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.23.8.2 X-Trace: news-reader.bt.net 910734267 212.23.8.2 (Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:44:27 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:44:27 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed.ecrc.net!btnet-peer!btnet-feed1!btnet!news-reader.bt.net!not-for-mail cjacquet@my-dejanews.com wrote: > > What was the first interface that used bitmap? I am > having such a hard time finding this in web pages, > either history is about computers or computer > graphics in advanced 3-d form. > help! thanks. My 1973 copy of "Principles of Interactive Computer Graphics" by Newman and Sproul doesn't even have "bitmap" in the index. The majority of displays described are vector, with storage (a la Tektronix 4010) tubes mentioned as a recent development. There is one entry for "raster", which starts with a description of all the difficulties associated with it. There were some strange mutant systems in those days - combinations of vector CRT's face to face with Vidicon (television) tubes. The digital storage technique has only recently become economically feasible: a low cost terminal that uses integrated-circuit shift registers for picture storage is now being marketed [250]. Only one brightness level, however is permitted . . . [250] Ruder, D. 'Data Disc Television Display System,' Proceedings 1968 UAIDE Annual Meeting, Stromberg Datagraphix, 338. ###### Message-ID: <3649C4A6.DFB0B399@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:08:54 -0800 From: Dale DePriest X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!isdnet!arl-news-svc-4.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!nntp-ntawwabp.compuserve.com Mike Hore wrote: > cjacquet@my-dejanews.com wrote in message > <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>... > >What was the first interface that used bitmap? I am > >having such a hard time finding this in web pages, > >either history is about computers or computer > >graphics in advanced 3-d form. > >help! thanks. > > Would it have been the PARC Alto? The first instance I ever heard of was in 1952. The Britsh computer (I forget the name at the moment) used crt technology for main memory. There is an example of the machine playing a game of tic-tac-toe on the face of the crt memory. The machine itself was invented in 1948 and has one of the calims of being the first stored program computer. I have a mac emulator that actually has the code for the machine tic-tac-toe game running on it. The crt is emulated as well. If you are interested I can look up the name of the computer but it should be easy to find. Dale ###### Message-ID: <3649E67A.3C9E44F8@zen.co.uk> From: "Alan J. Wylie" Organization: X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3649C4A6.DFB0B399@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:33:14 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.23.8.2 X-Trace: news-reader.bt.net 910812796 212.23.8.2 (Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:33:16 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:33:16 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!btnet-peer!btnet-feed1!btnet!news-reader.bt.net!not-for-mail Dale DePriest wrote: > > The first instance I ever heard of was in 1952. The Britsh computer (I > forget the name at the moment) used crt technology for main memory. > There is an example of the machine playing a game of tic-tac-toe on the > face of the crt memory. The machine itself was invented in 1948 and has > one of the calims of being the first stored program computer. I have a > mac emulator that actually has the code for the machine tic-tac-toe game > running on it. The crt is emulated as well. If you are interested I > can look up the name of the computer but it should be easy to find. Baby, or the Manchester Mk 1 See: http://www.computer50.org/mark1/mark1.html The Jeff^H^H^H^HWilliams Tubes had a plate over the face to allow the stored charge to be read, but a second tube could be run in parallel to display the memory (http://www.computer50.org/kgill/williams/williams.html) ###### From: dpeschel@u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Date: 12 Nov 1998 04:56:13 GMT Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Lines: 17 Message-ID: <72dppd$mha$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3649C4A6.DFB0B399@compuserve.com> <3649E67A.3C9E44F8@zen.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: saul6.u.washington.edu X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 910846573 23082 (None) 140.142.17.38 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-User: dpeschel Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.u.washington.edu!dpeschel In article <3649E67A.3C9E44F8@zen.co.uk>, Alan J. Wylie wrote: >Dale DePriest wrote: >> >> The first instance I ever heard of was in 1952. The Britsh computer (I >> forget the name at the moment) used crt technology for main memory. >Baby, or the Manchester Mk 1 > >See: http://www.computer50.org/mark1/mark1.html The tic-tac-toe program I've seen runs on EDSAC, not the Mark I. (Actually, it's "OXO" or "NOUGHTS AND CROSSES".) See: http://www.dcs.warwick.ac.uk/~edsac/ -- Derek ###### From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Date: 13 Nov 1998 08:18:27 GMT Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE Lines: 28 Message-ID: <72gq0j$6f5@darkstar.ucsc.edu> References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <723vna$4fc@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <725eg6$qbo$1@news.NERO.NET> NNTP-Posting-Host: arapaho.cse.ucsc.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.ucsc.edu!eugene In article <725eg6$qbo$1@news.NERO.NET>, John Atwood wrote: >how about Sutherland's Sketchpad in 1963? Ivan just gave a talk about this two weeks ago at SUN B 6. It was caligraphic. >>In article <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, cjacquet@my-dejanews.com writes: >>>What was the first interface that used bitmap? I am >>>having such a hard time finding this in web pages, >>>either history is about computers or computer >>>graphics in advanced 3-d form. >>>help! thanks. >Hugh Davies wrote: >>Possibly the SmallTalk system at Xerox PARC. Probably not but close. You mean the Pilot OS, the Bravo editor, and other tools. Get a copy of Sieworek, Bell and Newell. The original Alto paper is reproduced. It illustrated how bitmaps worked with the title block of the original TR/paper: "Alto: a ...." as 0s and 1s. >>Possibly the Athena system. No way. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: alderson@netcom.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? In-Reply-To: "Alan J. Wylie"'s message of Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:42:27 +0000 Message-ID: Sender: alderson@netcom.netcom.com Reply-To: alderson@netcom.com Organization: NETCOM On-line services References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3648B343.D9993C99@zen.co.uk> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 22:17:03 GMT Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!btnet-peer!btnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!209.244.253.199!newsfeed.xcom.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom!alderson In article <3648B343.D9993C99@zen.co.uk> "Alan J. Wylie" writes: >My 1973 copy of "Principles of Interactive Computer Graphics" by Newman and >Sproul Ooh, that's the first edition, with all the algorithms described in SAIL, isn't it? A large appendix on the LEAP data structures, among other goodies that got left out of the second. >[250] Ruder, D. 'Data Disc Television Display System,' Proceedings 1968 UAIDE >Annual Meeting, Stromberg Datagraphix, 338. I think the Data Disc was still in use on the SAIL computer in 1991, when I left Stanford. Or was that the III ("triple-I") terminals? No, I'm sure it was the Data Disc displays. -- Rich Alderson Last LOTS Tops-20 Systems Programmer, 1984-1991 Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170) last name @ XKL dot COM Chief systems administrator, XKL LLC, 1998-now ###### From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Date: 18 Nov 1998 00:02:10 GMT Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE Lines: 25 Message-ID: <72t2q2$qsq@darkstar.ucsc.edu> References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3648B343.D9993C99@zen.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: arapaho.cse.ucsc.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!xmission!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.ucsc.edu!eugene In article <3648B343.D9993C99@zen.co.uk> "Alan J. Wylie" writes: >>My 1973 copy of "Principles of Interactive Computer Graphics" by Newman and >>Sproul In article , Richard M. Alderson III wrote: >Ooh, that's the first edition, with all the algorithms described in SAIL, > >>[250] Ruder, D. 'Data Disc Television Display System,' Proceedings 1968 UAIDE >>Annual Meeting, Stromberg Datagraphix, 338. > >I think the Data Disc was still in use on the SAIL computer in 1991, when I >left Stanford. Or was that the III ("triple-I") terminals? No, I'm sure it >was the Data Disc displays. SAIL terminals, the purpose for the existence of SUN. Now that's a blast. Here it is, Sieworek, Bell, and Newell. Chap. 33, figure 8, on the Alto, section 3.2. ###### Reply-To: "Dennis J. Minette" From: "Dennis J. Minette" References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <723vna$4fc@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <725eg6$qbo$1@news.NERO.NET> Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 04:19:58 -0500 Lines: 21 Organization: Minette Data Systems, Inc. X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers NNTP-Posting-Host: 1Cust125.tnt1.sarasota.fl.da.uu.net [153.37.162.125] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!207.68.152.14!upnetnews04!upnetnews03 I always thought that bitmaps began with Etch-a-Sketch devices (in the early 50's?) John Atwood wrote in message <725eg6$qbo$1@news.NERO.NET>... > >how about Sutherland's Sketchpad in 1963? > >John Atwood > >>In article <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, cjacquet@my-dejanews.com writes: >>>What was the first interface that used bitmap? I am >>>having such a hard time finding this in web pages, >>>either history is about computers or computer >>>graphics in advanced 3-d form. >>>help! thanks. >Hugh Davies wrote: >>Possibly the SmallTalk system at Xerox PARC. >>Possibly the Athena system. ###### From: dessaig2@beast.Trenton.EDU (Shawn Dessaigne) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Date: 19 Nov 1998 13:39:25 GMT Organization: The College of New Jersey Lines: 17 Message-ID: <73172d$igd@simba> References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <723vna$4fc@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <725eg6$qbo$1@news.NERO.NET> NNTP-Posting-Host: beast X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!newsfeed.nyu.edu!newshub.northeast.verio.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!news.Trenton.EDU!beast!dessaig2 Dennis J. Minette (dennis_minette@email.msn.com) wrote: : I always thought that bitmaps began with Etch-a-Sketch devices (in the early : 50's?) I would consider the Etch-a-Sketch to be a vector display system. :) -- Shawn Dessaigne -*- at The College of New Jersey /----------------------------------------------------\ | dessaig2@tcnj.edu | "You can't play Brahms | | www.tcnj.edu/~dessaig2/ | on a canoe paddle, sir." | |-------------------------| -Marcie, "Peanuts" | | Music Education Major |--------------------------| | Class of 2001 | Ici on parle français! | \----------------------------------------------------/ ###### Message-ID: <3654A827.D5025E86@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:22:15 -0800 From: Dale DePriest X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <723vna$4fc@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <725eg6$qbo$1@news.NERO.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!tfl450.tfl.hk-r.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!newsfeed.ecrc.net!arl-news-svc-3.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!nntp-nih2naaa.compuserve.com "Dennis J. Minette" wrote: > I always thought that bitmaps began with Etch-a-Sketch devices (in the early > 50's?) > Actually Etch-a-Sketch is not a bitmap but rather a vector display. Vector displays were much more predominate in early Computers than were bitmap graphic displays. Both oscilliscope and storage scopes displays were used for graphic display devices. Using a memory mapped bitmap display was often a by product rather than being the graphics decision of choice. Dale DePriest ###### From: Larry Anderson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 18:23:48 -0800 Organization: Goldrush World Access, Ltd. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3654D2B4.389573E0@goldrush.com> References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <723vna$4fc@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <725eg6$qbo$1@news.NERO.NET> <73172d$igd@simba> Reply-To: foxnhare@goldrush.com NNTP-Posting-Host: jx-116.goldrush.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.pbi.net!206.171.171.4!news.goldrush.com!usenet Shawn Dessaigne wrote: > > Dennis J. Minette (dennis_minette@email.msn.com) wrote: > : I always thought that bitmaps began with Etch-a-Sketch devices (in the early > : 50's?) > > I would consider the Etch-a-Sketch to be a vector display system. > > :) > High persistance - slooooowww scan vector display :) One of the few displays where they 'required' you to shake the device. -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (300-2400bd) (209) 754-1363 Visit my Commodore 8-Bit web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/commodore.html -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- ###### Message-ID: <36602AB0.5D325ACC@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 08:54:08 -0800 From: Dale DePriest X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <723vna$4fc@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <725eg6$qbo$1@news.NERO.NET> <3654A827.D5025E86@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!arl-news-svc-4.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!nntp-nih2naac.compuserve.com David O'Bedlam wrote: > Dale DePriest wrote: > > > Both oscilliscope and storage scopes displays were used for graphic > > display devices. > > Imagine say MS Word -- or Netscape -- with those displays. > Actually Netscape reminds me quite a bit of the storage scopes. You cleared the page, waited quite a bit while the new page was displayed. Looked at it and repeated the process. The only difference is that the screen was monochrome. Dale DePriest ###### From: David O'Bedlam Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <723vna$4fc@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <725eg6$qbo$1@news.NERO.NET> Organization: Gehenna-By-The-Sea Lines: 19 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.201.34.8 X-Trace: news14.ispnews.com 912243286 207.201.34.8 (Sat, 28 Nov 1998 03:54:46 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 03:54:46 EDT Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 08:54:46 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!howland.erols.net!hub1.ispnews.com!news14.ispnews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Dennis J. Minette wrote: > I always thought that bitmaps began with Etch-a-Sketch devices > (in the early 50's?) I always thought there was some kind of "processed" sand inside those things. Remember that shaking the thing cleared the screen? If that's a bitmap display I'm glad it didn't catch on at IBM; for one thing I live in San Francisco. *rumble shake* D. -- "I can't gracefully accept the universe. But I've found I that I *can* gracefully accept the fact that the universe should not exist." -- Satanas Uxora, on alt.angst ###### From: David O'Bedlam Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <723vna$4fc@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <725eg6$qbo$1@news.NERO.NET> <3654A827.D5025E86@compuserve.com> Organization: Gehenna-By-The-Sea Lines: 15 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.201.34.8 X-Trace: news14.ispnews.com 912243421 207.201.34.8 (Sat, 28 Nov 1998 03:57:01 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 03:57:01 EDT Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 08:57:01 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!209.44.33.119!hub1.ispnews.com!news14.ispnews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Dale DePriest wrote: > Both oscilliscope and storage scopes displays were used for graphic > display devices. Imagine say MS Word -- or Netscape -- with those displays. Wincing, D. -- "I can't gracefully accept the universe. But I've found I that I *can* gracefully accept the fact that the universe should not exist." -- Satanas Uxora, on alt.angst ###### Message-ID: <3660422B.3006@gazonk.del> Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 13:34:19 -0500 From: "Foobar T. Clown" Organization: Blurp X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <723vna$4fc@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <725eg6$qbo$1@news.NERO.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.133.110.49 X-Trace: 28 Nov 1998 13:35:28 -0500, 198.133.110.49 Lines: 13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ix.netcom.com!zeus.nomos.com!198.133.110.49 David O'Bedlam wrote: > > Dennis J. Minette wrote: > > > I always thought that bitmaps began with Etch-a-Sketch devices > > (in the early 50's?) > > If that's a bitmap display I'm glad it didn't catch on at IBM; > for one thing I live in San Francisco. Uh uh. Etch-A-Sketch is a vector graphics / storage technology. The principles are the same as the old Tektronics storage tube vector graphics terminals, but the implementation is somewhat different. ###### From: The Bakers Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Date: 28 Nov 1998 20:40:02 GMT Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 20 Message-ID: <36605F9C.F0D614F6@no.spam> References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <723vna$4fc@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <725eg6$qbo$1@news.NERO.NET> <3654A827.D5025E86@compuserve.com> Reply-To: donteventry@no.spam NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.250.113.179 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!europa.clark.net!204.127.161.3!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.225!attworldnet!newsadm David O'Bedlam wrote: > Dale DePriest wrote: > > > Both oscilliscope and storage scopes displays were used for graphic > > display devices. > > Imagine say MS Word -- or Netscape -- with those displays. > Don't forget the SYM-1 6502-based single board computer....you could hack an V-H-Z (or maybe just V & Z -- perhaps the H sweep was internal to the scope triggered by banging a bit on one of the parallel ports) oscilloscope interface to it (minimal work involved), and run the code thoughtfully provided in the manual. A little fiddling with the scope knobs and presto --- an alphanumeric display! Pretty neat stuff. I'm sure other machines had something similar cobbled onto them at one time or another. ###### From: David O'Bedlam Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <723vna$4fc@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <725eg6$qbo$1@news.NERO.NET> <3654A827.D5025E86@compuserve.com> <36605F9C.F0D614F6@no.spam> Organization: Gehenna-By-The-Sea Lines: 26 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.201.34.8 X-Trace: news6.ispnews.com 912338724 207.201.34.8 (Sun, 29 Nov 1998 06:25:24 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 06:25:24 EDT Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 11:25:24 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!209.44.33.119!hub1.ispnews.com!news6.ispnews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail The Bakers wrote: > David O'Bedlam wrote: >> Dale DePriest wrote: >> >> > Both oscilliscope and storage scopes displays were used for graphic >> > display devices. >> >> Imagine say MS Word -- or Netscape -- with those displays. > Don't forget the SYM-1 6502-based single board computer....you could hack > an V-H-Z (or maybe just V & Z -- perhaps the H sweep was internal to the > scope triggered by banging a bit on one of the parallel ports) > oscilloscope interface to it (minimal work involved), and run the code > thoughtfully provided in the manual. A little fiddling with the scope > knobs and presto --- an alphanumeric display! Why not just use a TELEVISION? Or hadn't they been invented yet? *Ducking*, David -- "I can't gracefully accept the universe. But I've found I that I *can* gracefully accept the fact that the universe should not exist." -- Satanas Uxora, on alt.angst ###### From: David O'Bedlam Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <723vna$4fc@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <725eg6$qbo$1@news.NERO.NET> <3660422B.3006@gazonk.del> Organization: Gehenna-By-The-Sea Lines: 12 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.201.34.8 X-Trace: news6.ispnews.com 912338850 207.201.34.8 (Sun, 29 Nov 1998 06:27:30 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 06:27:30 EDT Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 11:27:30 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news.tele2.nl!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!209.44.33.119!hub1.ispnews.com!news6.ispnews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Foobar T. Clown wrote: > Uh uh. Etch-A-Sketch is a vector graphics / storage technology. So there's really no magnetized sand inside? Confused, David -- 'I know I don't belong here, I just think you folks are FUN.' ###### From: The Bakers Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Date: 29 Nov 1998 15:04:26 GMT Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 21 Message-ID: <36616274.854EC8ED@no.spam> References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <723vna$4fc@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <725eg6$qbo$1@news.NERO.NET> <3654A827.D5025E86@compuserve.com> <36605F9C.F0D614F6@no.spam> Reply-To: donteventry@no.spam NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.250.113.145 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!news.idt.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.225!attworldnet!newsadm David O'Bedlam wrote: > Why not just use a TELEVISION? Or hadn't they been invented yet? Think mid 1970s. The SYM-1 probably would've required at least a non-trivial bit of additional hardware for a character generator of some sort, and then you would've needed an RF modulator unless the TV had a video input (not common then) or had been modified to provide one safely [i.e., isolated from the AC line]. Furthermore, the SYM-1 was a singleboard computer which was quite nice for "embedded" applications (vs "personal desktop computer" use, although it could certainly be used for the latter). It would not be worth including a built-in video display in most of these devices [or even practical] but a technician working on the unit during a repair/upgrade visit would be very likely to have a portable oscilloscope with him anyhow for troubleshooting, etc. --- hence he could hook it up to the system and read diagnostics, instructions, etc. ###### Message-ID: <3661B82E.70E9@gazonk.del> Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 16:10:06 -0500 From: "Foobar T. Clown" Organization: Blurp X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <723vna$4fc@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <725eg6$qbo$1@news.NERO.NET> <3660422B.3006@gazonk.del> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.133.110.49 X-Trace: 29 Nov 1998 16:11:16 -0500, 198.133.110.49 Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ix.netcom.com!zeus.nomos.com!198.133.110.49 David O'Bedlam wrote: > > Foobar T. Clown wrote: > > > Uh uh. Etch-A-Sketch is a vector graphics / storage technology. > > So there's really no magnetized sand inside? But seriously, An Etch-A-Sketch contains aluminum dust, and maybe something like sand to help spread it around. There's nothing magnetic. I don't know why the aluminum sticks to the inside of the glass, but if you've ever got your hands on the stuff (e.g., by breaking open an Etch-A-Sketch) then you'll know that aluminum dust sticks to just about anything and everything. ###### From: Richard Lamb Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 23:46:12 -0600 Organization: Tapestry Software Lines: 15 Message-ID: <36623123.8F53411B@flash.net> References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <723vna$4fc@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <725eg6$qbo$1@news.NERO.NET> <3654A827.D5025E86@compuserve.com> <36605F9C.F0D614F6@no.spam> Reply-To: lamb01@flash.net NNTP-Posting-Host: p126.amax3.dialup.sat1.flash.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sender: "Richard Lamb" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-FLASHNET (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.flash.net!excalibur.flash.net!not-for-mail The Sym-1, oh yes. My first 'bought' computer. (And I still have it too!) THe monitor was far ahead of it's time.... REALLY neat stuff... Hook up a terminal or not... power it up and hit a key on the terminal or on the keypad, and that becomes the 'console' device. And the O-SCOPE display was a BLAST at the PDP-11/70 maintenamce class at Dec. Had the processor drawer open - already found the piece of scotch tape that was the 'problem'. Sym was hidden under some junk with a lantern battery. Instructor came by to check progress and looked at the scope which said, 'Good'. Yea-haw, what fun we're having now.... ###### Date: 30 Nov 98 11:43:45 -0800 From: "Charlie Gibbs" Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <723vna$4fc@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <725eg6$qbo$1@news.NERO.NET> <3654A827.D5025E86@compuserve.com> <36605F9C.F0D614F6@no.spam> Message-ID: <1599.638T2272T7035337@sky.bus.com> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Lines: 31 X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) NNTP-Posting-Host: news.skybus.com X-Trace: 30 Nov 1998 14:08:12 -0800, news.skybus.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news-peer1.sprintlink.net!news-in-east1.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.westel.com!news.skybus.com!204.244.247.120 In article <36605F9C.F0D614F6@no.spam> donteventry@no.spam (The Bakers) writes: >Don't forget the SYM-1 6502-based single board computer....you could >hack an V-H-Z (or maybe just V & Z -- perhaps the H sweep was internal >to the scope triggered by banging a bit on one of the parallel ports) >oscilloscope interface to it (minimal work involved), and run the code >thoughtfully provided in the manual. A little fiddling with the scope >knobs and presto --- an alphanumeric display! Fun. But since this is a.f.c, let's go all the way back. I once read an article from the late '60s, describing how a (IIRC) university research lab built an alphanumeric display. They figured out how the beam would have to move to draw a character, then did some Fourier analysis, wound a lot of coils, and build a display that drew each character individually. (Raster technology hadn't yet left the realm of TV.) As for commercial applications, the Uniscope 100 terminal used a similar scheme (although it drew little straight strokes instead of calculated curves). If you turned the brightness way up on a blank screen, you could see a grid of 12x80 or 16x64 dots (depending on the screen size option). These were the home positions for each character cell, and the terminal would draw little strokes in the vicinity of that position to form the character. Its A looked quite nice - two diagonal lines meeting at the top with a stroke across the middle, and no jaggies (although characters like 8 had a few). -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: william.hamblen@localhost (William Hamblen) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:24:07 -0600 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here! Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <723vna$4fc@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <725eg6$qbo$1@news.NERO.NET> <3654A827.D5025E86@compuserve.com> <36605F9C.F0D614F6@no.spam> <36616274.854EC8ED@no.spam> Reply-To: william.hamblen@nashville.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.65.139.21 X-Trace: 912506447 4TJCV727N8B15CF41C usenet80.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!william.hamblen The Bakers (donteventry@no.spam) wrote: : David O'Bedlam wrote: : > Why not just use a TELEVISION? Or hadn't they been invented yet? : Think mid 1970s. The SYM-1 probably would've required at least a non-trivial : bit of additional hardware for a character generator of some sort, and then you : would've needed an RF modulator unless the TV had a video input (not common : then) or had been modified to provide one safely [i.e., isolated from the AC : line]. Don Lancaster's TV Typewriter was a definite mid-70s gadget. Plenty of people had their microcomputers connected to 32 character by 16 line displays. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Date: 02 Dec 1998 00:52:11 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 34 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <723vna$4fc@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <725eg6$qbo$1@news.NERO.NET> <3654A827.D5025E86@compuserve.com> <36605F9C.F0D614F6@no.spam> <36616274.854EC8ED@no.spam> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 william.hamblen@localhost (William Hamblen) writes: > > The Bakers (donteventry@no.spam) wrote: > > : David O'Bedlam wrote: > > : > Why not just use a TELEVISION? Or hadn't they been invented yet? > > : Think mid 1970s. > > Don Lancaster's TV Typewriter was a definite mid-70s gadget. Plenty of people > had their microcomputers connected to 32 character by 16 line displays. The problem in early computers was not the TV (invented in the 1940s). The problem was that bitmapped displays require giving each pixel its own personal bit (on/off) in memory. Even for 32*16 characters with an 8*8 font this requires 32*16*8*8=32k bits = 8kByte RAM for the raster data. In the days when computers had only a few kWords of memory (which cost 10000s of $$$) that was out of the question. So instead one used oscilloscopes and had the software draw the output by controlling directly via DACs the X/Y position of the electron beam. Such a system is called an vector display. -- Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Guru, Hacker, Mystic neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ "No, it was a JOKE! You can't RUN this!" Ken Thompson ###### From: spalding@iol.ie (Nick Spalding) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 11:37:52 GMT Organization: Ireland On-Line Lines: 10 Message-ID: <3669256e.99178383@news.iol.ie> References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <723vna$4fc@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <725eg6$qbo$1@news.NERO.NET> <3654A827.D5025E86@compuserve.com> <36605F9C.F0D614F6@no.spam> <36616274.854EC8ED@no.spam> Reply-To: spalding@iol.ie NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-0049.dublin.iol.ie Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news.tele2.nl!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!194.125.2.233!iol!iol.ie!not-for-mail Neil Franklin wrote: > The problem in early computers was not the TV (invented in the > 1940s). The BBC was broadcasting TV in 1936, the receivers used CRTs in raster mode in essentially the same way as todays except they were monochrome. -- Nick Spalding ###### From: cpierce1@mail.ford.com (Clinton Pierce) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 17:42:26 GMT Organization: Ford Motor Company Lines: 33 Message-ID: <36687b27.93843775@news.ford.com> References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <723vna$4fc@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <725eg6$qbo$1@news.NERO.NET> <3660422B.3006@gazonk.del> <3661B82E.70E9@gazonk.del> NNTP-Posting-Host: 19.88.81.157 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!141.211.144.13!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!jobone!dailyplanet.srl.ford.com!eccws1.dearborn.ford.com!news On Sun, 29 Nov 1998 16:10:06 -0500, "Foobar T. Clown" wrote: >David O'Bedlam wrote: >> >> Foobar T. Clown wrote: >> >> > Uh uh. Etch-A-Sketch is a vector graphics / storage technology. >> >> So there's really no magnetized sand inside? > >But seriously, > >An Etch-A-Sketch contains aluminum dust, and maybe something like sand >to help spread it around. There's nothing magnetic. I don't know why >the aluminum sticks to the inside of the glass, but if you've ever got >your hands on the stuff (e.g., by breaking open an Etch-A-Sketch) then >you'll know that aluminum dust sticks to just about anything and >everything. Drifting waaaaay off topic for a.f.c, but here's some useful info: http://web.mit.edu/invent/www/inventorsA-H/etchy.html Gives some details how it works. Basically, the aluminum dust sticks to the glass, and is wiped off to create the lines. For a good look inside of an Etch-A-Sketch, you can leave one flat, face up, and gently vibrate it. The dust/beads fall off the glass eventually, and with a strong flashlight you can look through the screen to examine the machanism. ###### From: sam@greenaum.demonARSE!ARSE!ARSE!.co.uk (Sam.) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 22:11:28 GMT Organization: Rossum's Universal Robots Message-ID: <3666b83d.330533@158.152.254.70> References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <723vna$4fc@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <725eg6$qbo$1@news.NERO.NET> <3654A827.D5025E86@compuserve.com> <36605F9C.F0D614F6@no.spam> <36616274.854EC8ED@no.spam> Reply-To: sam@greenaum.demonARSE!ARSE!ARSE!.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: greenaum.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: greenaum.demon.co.uk:194.222.71.189 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 912636736 nnrp-06:18800 NO-IDENT greenaum.demon.co.uk:194.222.71.189 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!diablo.theplanet.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!greenaum.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail On 02 Dec 1998 00:52:11 +0100, Neil Franklin sprachen: >The problem was that bitmapped displays require giving each pixel >its own personal bit (on/off) in memory. > >Even for 32*16 characters with an 8*8 font this requires 32*16*8*8=32k >bits = 8kByte RAM for the raster data. The ZX81 managed with 1K, mostly by storing lines as characters, and generating their bitmaps on the fly. In any case you don't need a full byte for each pixel, you can use a 1-bit screen for what you suggest above in 4K. Also the Atari 2600, with 500-odd games, had no video memory, games had to write to the single line screen registers at the start of every horizontal sync. There are lots of ways of doing it, though you need to sync to the screen redraw and drive it in software, but that's not really different to having to drive an oscilloscope. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The person who said he was a crap presenter knows nothing because compared to the outwardly camp stuart miles, speech impediment Katy Hill and nothing upstairs Konnie Huq, he was a true professional. Heh heh heh. ###### From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 12:35:15 -0000 Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 19 Message-ID: <7460lc$cg4@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <723vna$4fc@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <725eg6$qbo$1@news.NERO.NET> <3654A827.D5025E86@compuserve.com> <36605F9C.F0D614F6@no.spam> <36616274.854EC8ED@no.spam> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak6d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2120.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!server4.netnews.ja.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news Neil Franklin wrote in message ... :william.hamblen@localhost (William Hamblen) writes: :The problem was that bitmapped displays require giving each pixel :its own personal bit (on/off) in memory. : :Even for 32*16 characters with an 8*8 font this requires 32*16*8*8=32k :bits = 8kByte RAM for the raster data. In the days when computers had :only a few kWords of memory (which cost 10000s of $$$) that was out of :the question. Erm, I think your maths is a little off there, 32Kb = 4KB. Many computers used less than that, like the C64 and ZX81. AndyC ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Date: 03 Dec 1998 21:10:26 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 53 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <723vna$4fc@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <725eg6$qbo$1@news.NERO.NET> <3654A827.D5025E86@compuserve.com> <36605F9C.F0D614F6@no.spam> <36616274.854EC8ED@no.spam> <7460lc$cg4@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 "Andrew Cadley" writes: > > Neil Franklin wrote in message ... > :The problem was that bitmapped displays require giving each pixel > :its own personal bit (on/off) in memory. > : > :Even for 32*16 characters with an 8*8 font this requires 32*16*8*8=32k > :bits = 8kByte RAM for the raster data. In the days when computers had > :only a few kWords of memory (which cost 10000s of $$$) that was out of > :the question. > > Erm, I think your maths is a little off there, 32Kb = 4KB. Oops. That comes from doing calculations at 1:00am after being up 18 hours including an visit to the dentist. Definitely not recommended (the calculating, not the dentist). > Many computers > used less than that, like the C64 and ZX81. This was done by producing an pseudo-bitmap by using character cells. For the above example it would need 32*16*[6..8] bits (= 512 bytes) of character indexes and [64..256]*8*8 bits (= 512..2048 bytes) of character bitmaps (each character 8*8 pixel = 8 bytes). I call this pseudo-bitmap because unlike real bitmap you can not set/clear each pixel independant of the others (all equal charcters share an single bitmap). The ZX81 had AFAIK 32*24 character indexes in RAM (768* of 1024 bytes) and 64 or 128 character bitmaps in ROM (1/2 or 1 of 8 kBytes). * I once heard they did not need to be all present, the video generator could be set to only display the part of the picture containing text. Empty space at the end of an line and empty lines at the end of the screen did not require RAM. But I have never had this confirmed. OTOH the C64 had 40*25 character indexes in RAM (1000 of 64k) and twice 256 character bitmaps in ROM (4k of 20k). So 32*16 character real bitmap would actually be smaller that the C64s indexes and bitmaps (but of course less pixels, C64 real bitmap was 8000 bytes). -- Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Guru, Hacker, Mystic neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ "No, it was a JOKE! You can't RUN this!" Ken Thompson ###### From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Date: 4 Dec 1998 20:30:28 GMT Lines: 19 Message-ID: <749gp4$hdk$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <3669256e.99178383@news.iol.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-185.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: irk.zetnet.co.uk 912803428 17844 194.247.40.235 (4 Dec 1998 20:30:28 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Dec 1998 20:30:28 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!btnet-peer!btnet-feed1!btnet!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1998-12-02 spalding@iol.ie said: :Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers :Neil Franklin wrote: :> The problem in early computers was not the TV (invented in the :> 1940s). :The BBC was broadcasting TV in 1936, the receivers used CRTs in :raster mode in essentially the same way as todays except they were :monochrome. However, Logie Baird's first TV prototypes (mid-20s) were actually mechanical in nature. Another company was left to come up with the electronic receiver. (At least, that's what a nagging part of my memory is telling me. If you know different, please correct.) -- Communa (lisard@zetnet.co.uk) -- you know soft spoken changes nothing ###### From: spalding@iol.ie (Nick Spalding) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 20:53:47 GMT Organization: Ireland On-Line Lines: 36 Message-ID: <366849b1.203427815@news.iol.ie> References: <3669256e.99178383@news.iol.ie> <749gp4$hdk$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> Reply-To: spalding@iol.ie NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-0076.dublin.iol.ie Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!iol!not-for-mail lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: > > > On 1998-12-02 spalding@iol.ie said: > :Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers > :Neil Franklin wrote: > :> The problem in early computers was not the TV (invented in the > :> 1940s). > :The BBC was broadcasting TV in 1936, the receivers used CRTs in > :raster mode in essentially the same way as todays except they were > :monochrome. > > However, Logie Baird's first TV prototypes (mid-20s) were actually > mechanical in nature. Another company was left to come up with the > electronic receiver. > > (At least, that's what a nagging part of my memory is telling me. If you > know different, please correct.) Quite true. The 1936 BBC system developed by EMI was all electronic 405 lines 25 fps interlaced, identical in principle to today's TV. Baird's electro-mechanical system, using a flying-spot scanner for transmission and I think a combination of rotating disk and rotating mirrors for reception, used about 250 lines and was initially tried out on alternate nights. Originally the dual trial was supposed to continue for something like six months but the BBC system was so obviously superior that the Baird system was dropped after a few weeks. My post was in answer to the assertion that TV was invented in the 40s, the context being the use of CRTs. -- Nick Spalding ###### From: jones@cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Date: 4 Dec 1998 22:00:30 GMT Organization: The University of Iowa Lines: 44 Message-ID: <749m1u$a4m$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> References: <366849b1.203427815@news.iol.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!newspeer1.nac.net!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.131.128.14!elnws02.ce.mediaone.net!24.131.1.12!denws01.mw.mediaone.net!news.altair.com!NewsNG.Chicago.Qual.Net!news.uiowa.edu!not-for-mail From article <366849b1.203427815@news.iol.ie>, by spalding@iol.ie (Nick Spalding): > The 1936 BBC system developed by EMI was all electronic 405 lines 25 > fps interlaced, identical in principle to today's TV. Baird's > electro-mechanical system, using a flying-spot scanner for > transmission and I think a combination of rotating disk and rotating > mirrors for reception, used about 250 lines and was initially tried > out on alternate nights. ... But, of course, the transmission of images using a raster predates all this TV stuff by a century. The first raster transmission of images was done by the French under Napolean II, using a massive and wonderful machine called the pendulotelefacsimily machine. This even incorporated the concept of a sync pulse at the start of each scan line! The machine consisted of a pair of pendulums, one at the transmitter and one at the receiver. The pendulums were synchronized telegraphically; the master pendulum closed a switch each time it approached one of its end stops. This energized a local electromagnet and (via a telegraph line) energized a remote electromagnet at the receiver, keeping that pendulum in sync. The transmitting and receiving pendulums were equipped with sheet feeders that advanced sheets of paper under the pendulums one scan line per swing of the pendulum. The transmitter had a scanner on its tip that swept across the original copy, looking for conductive spots and closing the telegraph circuit every time such a spot was found. The receiver pendulum had an electrode on its tip that swept over the wet sheet of blank paper that was being advanced through the receiver and electrodeposited a mark on the paper whenever the telegraph line delivered a pulse. The result was a working fax system, working at two scan lines per second, (the pendulums were 1 meter long, therefore, the period was 1 second), with the slightly annoying limitation that the original had to be written using conductive ink. The machine was a success, and the texefacsimile line, running between, If I remember correctly, Lyons and Milan, was heavily used. The competition was a transalpine postal route relying on horses and me to cross some very difficult territory. Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu ###### From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Date: 5 Dec 1998 01:43:54 GMT Message-ID: <74a34q$hrf$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <749m1u$a4m$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-059.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: irk.zetnet.co.uk 912822234 18287 194.247.41.73 (5 Dec 1998 01:43:54 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Dec 1998 01:43:54 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1998-12-04 jones@cs.uiowa.edu wrote: [details of first fax snipped] :The machine was a success, and the texefacsimile line, running :between, If I remember correctly, Lyons and Milan, was heavily used. :The competition was a transalpine postal route relying on horses :and me to cross some very difficult territory. ^^ If you have documentary evidence of this, I'm sure the Guinness Book of Records (not to mention various medical authorities) would be greatly interested to hear from you. (Otherwise, a fascinating description - thanks.) -- Communa (lisard@zetnet.co.uk) -- you know soft spoken changes nothing ###### Reply-To: "Dennis J. Minette" From: "Dennis J. Minette" References: <366849b1.203427815@news.iol.ie> <749m1u$a4m$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 06:47:23 -0500 Lines: 57 Organization: Minette Data Systems, Inc. X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: <#Io0PeEI#GA.306@upnetnews03> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers NNTP-Posting-Host: 1Cust181.tnt1.sarasota.fl.da.uu.net [153.37.162.181] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!207.68.152.14!upnetnews04!upnetnews03 Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879 wrote in message <749m1u$a4m$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu>... >From article <366849b1.203427815@news.iol.ie>, >by spalding@iol.ie (Nick Spalding): > >> The 1936 BBC system developed by EMI was all electronic 405 lines 25 >> fps interlaced, identical in principle to today's TV. Baird's >> electro-mechanical system, using a flying-spot scanner for >> transmission and I think a combination of rotating disk and rotating >> mirrors for reception, used about 250 lines and was initially tried >> out on alternate nights. ... > >But, of course, the transmission of images using a raster predates all >this TV stuff by a century. The first raster transmission of images >was done by the French under Napolean II, using a massive and wonderful >machine called the pendulotelefacsimily machine. This even incorporated >the concept of a sync pulse at the start of each scan line! > >The machine consisted of a pair of pendulums, one at the transmitter and >one at the receiver. The pendulums were synchronized telegraphically; >the master pendulum closed a switch each time it approached one of its >end stops. This energized a local electromagnet and (via a telegraph >line) energized a remote electromagnet at the receiver, keeping that >pendulum in sync. > >The transmitting and receiving pendulums were equipped with sheet feeders >that advanced sheets of paper under the pendulums one scan line per swing >of the pendulum. The transmitter had a scanner on its tip that swept >across the original copy, looking for conductive spots and closing the >telegraph circuit every time such a spot was found. The receiver pendulum >had an electrode on its tip that swept over the wet sheet of blank paper >that was being advanced through the receiver and electrodeposited a mark >on the paper whenever the telegraph line delivered a pulse. > >The result was a working fax system, working at two scan lines per second, >(the pendulums were 1 meter long, therefore, the period was 1 second), >with the slightly annoying limitation that the original had to be written >using conductive ink. Was this the first application of MICR coding? > >The machine was a success, and the texefacsimile line, running between, >If I remember correctly, Lyons and Milan, was heavily used. The competition >was a transalpine postal route relying on horses and me to cross some very >difficult territory. "horses and me?" You were actually running an Alpine Pony Express? I think you must be jerking our chain a bit there. :-) > Doug Jones > jones@cs.uiowa.edu ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 11:24:42 +0000 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <366917FA.D4A97041@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <3669256e.99178383@news.iol.ie> <749gp4$hdk$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <366849b1.203427815@news.iol.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 912858296 nnrp-04:5783 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!bullseye.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Nick Spalding wrote: [Interesting stuff about early TV] See http://homepages.wyenet.co.uk/gdixon/nbtva.html and follow the link to the restored recordings. Incidentally, these chaps were at IBC Amsterdam last year with a restored Iconoscope camera. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 14:26:47 +0000 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <366942A7.CF72110D@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <366849b1.203427815@news.iol.ie> <749m1u$a4m$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <#Io0PeEI#GA.306@upnetnews03> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 912877313 nnrp-01:16824 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!diablo.theplanet.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Dennis J. Minette wrote: > "horses and me?" You were actually running an Alpine Pony Express? I think > you must be jerking our chain a bit there. :-) Ok, so he typed "me" for "men", is he supposed to be a poof reader or something? -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: sam@greenaum.demonARSE!ARSE!ARSE!.co.uk (Sam.) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 14:28:36 GMT Organization: Rossum's Universal Robots Message-ID: <366d4219.414729@158.152.254.70> References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <723vna$4fc@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <725eg6$qbo$1@news.NERO.NET> <3654A827.D5025E86@compuserve.com> <36605F9C.F0D614F6@no.spam> <36616274.854EC8ED@no.spam> <7460lc$cg4@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam@greenaum.demonARSE!ARSE!ARSE!.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: greenaum.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: greenaum.demon.co.uk:194.222.71.189 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 912868173 nnrp-06:24983 NO-IDENT greenaum.demon.co.uk:194.222.71.189 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!greenaum.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail On 03 Dec 1998 21:10:26 +0100, Neil Franklin sprachen: >* I once heard they did not need to be all present, the video generator >could be set to only display the part of the picture containing text. >Empty space at the end of an line and empty lines at the end of the >screen did not require RAM. But I have never had this confirmed. sright, if you only had a 1K machine, it was difficult to write programs that used a lot of screen. The screen was basically stored as rows of characters, with a CR at the end, an empty row was just a single byte. I believe the particular code for CR (it wasn't ASCII so it wasn't 13) was chosed because it coincided with a certain Z80 opcode. This is covered in the manual, which you can find on the web. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The person who said he was a crap presenter knows nothing because compared to the outwardly camp stuart miles, speech impediment Katy Hill and nothing upstairs Konnie Huq, he was a true professional. Heh heh heh. ###### From: David Wragg Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Organization: French Toast! Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <723kcb$n0n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <723vna$4fc@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <725eg6$qbo$1@news.NERO.NET> <3654A827.D5025E86@compuserve.com> <36605F9C.F0D614F6@no.spam> <36616274.854EC8ED@no.spam> <7460lc$cg4@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Date: 05 Dec 1998 15:15:59 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.119.176.228 X-Complaints-To: news@u-net.net X-Trace: newsr2.u-net.net 912888745 194.119.176.228 (Sat, 05 Dec 1998 20:12:25 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 20:12:25 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!195.200.0.51.MISMATCH!newshub.bart.net!ayres.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!peer.news.zetnet.net!peer.news.bb.u-net.net!u-net!newsr2.u-net.net.POSTED!gatsby.u-net.com!not-for-mail Neil Franklin writes: > The ZX81 had AFAIK 32*24 character indexes in RAM (768* of 1024 bytes) > and 64 or 128 character bitmaps in ROM (1/2 or 1 of 8 kBytes). > > * I once heard they did not need to be all present, the video generator > could be set to only display the part of the picture containing text. > Empty space at the end of an line and empty lines at the end of the > screen did not require RAM. But I have never had this confirmed. My ZX81 died long ago, but I still have the manual. From chapter 27: The display file is the memory copy of the television picture. It begins with a NEWLINE character, & then has the twenty four lines of text, each finishing with a NEWLINE. The system is so designed that a line of text does not need space a full thirty two characters: final spaces can be omitted. This is used to save space when the memory is small. When the total amount of memory (according to the system variable RAMTOP) is less than 3 1/4 K, then a clear screen - as set up at the start or by CLS - consists of just twenty five NEWLINEs. When the memory is bigger than a clear screen is padded out with 24*32 spaces & on the whole it stays at its full size; SCROLL, however, & certain conditions where the lower part of the screen expands to more than two lines, can upset this by introducing short lines at the bottom. That's verbatim. Doesn't look like they had much time for proofreading. Dave Wragg ###### From: arargh@arargh.com (Arargh!) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 19:36:39 GMT Organization: Arargh!! Lines: 18 Message-ID: <366a8add.134981904@news.mcs.net> References: <366849b1.203427815@news.iol.ie> <749m1u$a4m$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <#Io0PeEI#GA.306@upnetnews03> Reply-To: arargh@arargh.com NNTP-Posting-Host: jwright.pr.mcs.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news.tele2.nl!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntp.abs.net!news.mcs.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!not-for-mail On Sat, 5 Dec 1998 06:47:23 -0500, "Dennis J. Minette" wrote: > >Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879 wrote in message ><749m1u$a4m$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu>... >>From article <366849b1.203427815@news.iol.ie>, >>by spalding@iol.ie (Nick Spalding): >> > >Was this the first application of MICR coding? > MICR = Magnetic Ink Character Recognition No, I don't think so. arargh ###### Reply-To: "Dennis J. Minette" From: "Dennis J. Minette" References: <366849b1.203427815@news.iol.ie> <749m1u$a4m$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <#Io0PeEI#GA.306@upnetnews03> <366942A7.CF72110D@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: first bitmap interface? Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 17:15:36 -0500 Lines: 23 Organization: Minette Data Systems, Inc. X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers NNTP-Posting-Host: 1Cust69.tnt1.sarasota.fl.da.uu.net [153.37.162.69] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!207.68.152.14!upnetnews04!upnetnews03 Robert Billing wrote in message <366942A7.CF72110D@tnglwood.demon.co.uk>... >Dennis J. Minette wrote: > >> "horses and me?" You were actually running an Alpine Pony Express? I think >> you must be jerking our chain a bit there. :-) > > Ok, so he typed "me" for "men", is he supposed to be a poof reader or >something? > >-- >I am Robert Billing, "poof reader"? ROMALTFO! Very well put, Robert. I have always had a problem determining what people actually mean when all I have to work with is what they say (or write.)