From: Dennis Ritchie Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Mimeo, ditto Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 04:36:18 +0100 Organization: Bell Labs, Lucent Technologies Lines: 37 Message-ID: <3622CAB1.21F0@bell-labs.com> References: <6vl5a3$tba$8@ligarius.ultra.net> <6vqhdj$1jq$13@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <3620f2b7.0@news.wizvax.net> <6vr0dp$en4$1@csnews.cs.colorado.edu> <3621aa51.5766234@news.vip.net> Reply-To: dmr@bell-labs.com NNTP-Posting-Host: cebu.cs.bell-labs.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; U) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!199.117.161.1!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!nntphub.cb.lucent.com!news Surprising that no one has clarified the technologies for these. I'm weaker on the trademarks and common names. Mimeograph uses a penetrable-fiber waxy paper. Typing on it pushes away the wax at the key impressions. When the masters are attached to a drum with liquid but thick ink inside, some thousands of copies can be produced from each master: the ink "flows" through the master where the wax is pushed aside. The wearout mechanism is just wear on the master. Some solvent smell from the ink. Fair amount of set-up. Ditto or spirit process used masters in two parts: top sheet a carefully-formulated paper, bottom a solid ink surface with a coating so it didn't rub off easily. Typing on the top physically transferred the ink from the bottom sheet to the front. Fairly readily done in more than one color by replacing the bottom ink-sheet and typing (or drawing) some more. Reproduction was done by taking the reverse-inked top and putting in on a similar drum. Good only for a finite (~100) number of copies, because the solvent used during printing softened the ink sticking to the master and transferred it to the copies; when the ink was gone, it was gone. This process definitely generated organic fumes, but the setup was cheaper than mimeograph. The closest analog today is making overhead slides with marker pens. There was also a process (whose name I forget and never actually saw) with the same idea, except that it was manual by sheet: it made a master like the Ditto, transferred the ink to a tray with a gelatin-like surface, and you pressed pieces of paper onto the gelatin. Yuk. But you didn't need to buy a machine with a drum. Dennis ###### From: Louis RAPHAEL Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Mimeo, ditto Date: 13 Oct 1998 05:02:02 GMT Organization: Societe pour la promotion du petoncle vert Lines: 34 Message-ID: <6vumsa$95k@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca> References: <6vl5a3$tba$8@ligarius.ultra.net> <6vqhdj$1jq$13@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <3620f2b7.0@news.wizvax.net> <6vr0dp$en4$1@csnews.cs.colorado.edu> <3621aa51.5766234@news.vip.net> <3622CAB1.21F0@bell-labs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lisa.cs.mcgill.ca X-No-Archive: Yes User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971127 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-dc.gip.net!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!news.mcgill.ca!cs.mcgill.ca!raphael Dennis Ritchie wrote: : Mimeograph uses a penetrable-fiber waxy paper. Typing : on it pushes away the wax at the key impressions. : When the masters are attached : to a drum with liquid but thick ink inside, some thousands of : copies can be produced from each master: the ink "flows" : through the master where the wax is pushed aside. The : wearout mechanism is just wear on the master. Some : solvent smell from the ink. Fair amount of set-up. They work fairly decently, though... About a year ago, someone posted to a local newsgroup that he was trying to get rid of one. I couldn't help myself, and went to pick it up... quite a bit of fun. My dot matrix printer does a fairly decent job of printing on the wax stencils, and the machine itself runs fairly well. The number of copies that it can output per minute is absolutely astounding. That being said, I haven't really found a use for it yet, but I can't bear to see it being thrown out, so I'm keeping it. As I was looking for the wax stencils (hard to find: AB Dick still sells them), I was also offered (but for money, unfortunately - so I passed it up) a scanner to scan an original onto a wax stencil. It seemed to work with electric current melting/burning off pieces of wax, or something like that. Louis -- A definition of employee loyalty: Not looking for your next job on company time. ###### From: viro@math.psu.edu (Alexander Viro) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Mimeo, ditto Date: 13 Oct 1998 05:26:58 GMT Organization: -ENOENT Lines: 18 Message-ID: <6vuob2$1kai@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> References: <6vl5a3$tba$8@ligarius.ultra.net> <6vr0dp$en4$1@csnews.cs.colorado.edu> <3621aa51.5766234@news.vip.net> <3622CAB1.21F0@bell-labs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pascal.math.psu.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!viro In article <3622CAB1.21F0@bell-labs.com>, Dennis Ritchie wrote: [snip] >There was also a process (whose name I forget and never >actually saw) with the same idea, except that it was >manual by sheet: it made a master like the Ditto, transferred >the ink to a tray with a gelatin-like surface, and you >pressed pieces of paper onto the gelatin. Yuk. But you >didn't need to buy a machine with a drum. Hectograph. BDTD. Main advantage being that it's, erm, extremely low-tech. BTW, you don't have to press paper onto the surface - just put it there and pick it up 1-2 seconds later. Main problem: it will be wet, so you'ld better prepare to hang it somewhere for few minutes. -- "You're one of those condescending Unix computer users!" "Here's a nickel, kid. Get yourself a better computer" - Dilbert. ###### From: thvv@best.com (Tom Van Vleck) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Mimeo, ditto Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 07:40:41 -0700 Organization: Multicians Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <6vl5a3$tba$8@ligarius.ultra.net> <6vqhdj$1jq$13@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <3620f2b7.0@news.wizvax.net> <6vr0dp$en4$1@csnews.cs.colorado.edu> <3621aa51.5766234@news.vip.net> <3622CAB1.21F0@bell-labs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: thvv.vip.best.com X-Trace: 908289741 23669 (none) 206.86.0.12 X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.1 X-url: http://www.best.com/~thvv/multics.html Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!btnet-peer!btnet!newshub.northeast.verio.net!news.voicenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp2.ba.best.com!thvv And to tie Dennis's post to computing: back in the sixties, large projects were coordinated by paper documents, and the reproduction of these documents was a major expense and concern. Design memos for the Multics project in 1966 were typically - handwritten by programmers - typed by secretaries - corrected and retyped - typed on ditto masters and distributed for review (These documents came out in bluish-purple ink that faded over time. Some old MIT memos I have are unreadable.) - corrected and retyped on paper-tape Flexowriters by secretaries - mimeographed from masters prepared from the paper tape - distributed to all project members When we got a Xerox machine, it was in a special room next to the Flexowriters, and it was always an adventure to see if you'd get your original back. About one time in a hundred, it used to jam and burn or at least singe the paper inside. We didn't use the CTSS document prep commands TYPSET and RUNOFF, or store documents online, because it was too expensive and hard disk space was too scarce. Jerry Saltzer was unable to find the Flexowriter tapes for the original Multics System Programmers' Manual at Project MAC a few years ago. ###### Message-ID: <3623636E.5D16@gazonk.del> Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 10:27:58 -0400 From: "Foobar T. Clown" Reply-To: foobar@gazonk.del Organization: Blurp X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Mimeo, ditto References: <6vl5a3$tba$8@ligarius.ultra.net> <6vqhdj$1jq$13@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <3620f2b7.0@news.wizvax.net> <6vr0dp$en4$1@csnews.cs.colorado.edu> <3621aa51.5766234@news.vip.net> <3622CAB1.21F0@bell-labs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.133.110.49 X-Trace: 13 Oct 1998 10:28:05 -0500, 198.133.110.49 Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ix.netcom.com!zeus.nomos.com!198.133.110.49 Dennis Ritchie wrote: > > Surprising that no one has clarified the technologies > for [various ways of printing-on-the-cheap]. Not surprising to me. I belong to a lost generation that never knew the difference. Almost every handout I ever got in grade school or high school was printed on a spirit duplicator, and everybody called the process "mimeo." I've never seen a real mimeograph. I suppose that a mimeograph wouldn't have been economical for the small numbers of copies made by my school teachers. Maybe I would have seen mimeos in college if I'd been older, but by the time I got there, all the high volume stuff was done on Xerox machines. ###### From: jones@cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Mimeo, ditto Date: 13 Oct 1998 13:46:52 GMT Organization: The University of Iowa Lines: 48 Message-ID: <6vvlkc$kbi$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> References: <3622CAB1.21F0@bell-labs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!btnet-peer!btnet!newshub.northeast.verio.net!howland.erols.net!netnews.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!feeder1.wwnet.net!streamer1.cleveland.iagnet.net!NewsNG.Chicago.Qual.Net!news.uiowa.edu!not-for-mail From article <3622CAB1.21F0@bell-labs.com>, by Dennis Ritchie : > Surprising that no one has clarified the technologies > for these. I'm weaker on the trademarks and common names. Ah the good old days! > Mimeograph uses a penetrable-fiber waxy paper. ... It's worth noting that Thomas Edison invented the mimeograph process. His original mimeograph stencils were made using a pen that strongly resembles a modern electrical tattoo needle -- the resemblance is so strong that I suspect that many tattoo parlors actually used (and may still use?) Edison mimeograph stencil cutters as tattoo needles. > Ditto or spirit process ... > Good only for a finite (~100) number of copies ... Hah. Good for about 30 good copies, 20 medium quality copies, and about 50 faint but readable impressions. Almost all ditto copies were done in blue ink. Sadly, many of the original technical reports circulated by the various labs developing computers in the 1940's were dittoed, and one property of ditto ink is that it fades with age. I once spent a day looking through very old tech reports at the U of Illinois library, and found that many of the 1940's tech reports are almost entirely unreadable. These are the reports that contain notes on the debugging of the very first generation of digital computers, and as a result, it is correct to say that much of the history of that era is literally fading. > > There was also a process (whose name I forget and never > actually saw) with the same idea, except that it was > manual by sheet ... Hectograph is the name. When I was a kid in the 1950's, we had a hectograph setup at home, used for doing flyers to post around the neighborhood and things like that. My sister used it to print a neighborhood newspaper when she was about 6 years old, and for many years, one issue of the "Neighborhood Gossip" remained legibly printed on the dining room table because she accidentally managed to flip the gelatin tray that served to do the printing. Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu ###### From: jtnospam@epix.net Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Mimeo, ditto Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 15:02:18 -0400 Organization: epix Internet Services Lines: 21 Message-ID: <3623a414$4$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> References: <6vl5a3$tba$8@ligarius.ultra.net> <6vqhdj$1jq$13@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <3620f2b7.0@news.wizvax.net> <6vr0dp$en4$1@csnews.cs.colorado.edu> <3621aa51.5766234@news.vip.net> <3622CAB1.21F0@bell-labs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: itha-125ppp24.epix.net X-Newsreader: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.50 b50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-xfer.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!news-xfer.epix.net!news1.epix.net!epix-news In <3622CAB1.21F0@bell-labs.com>, on 10/13/98 at 04:36 AM, Dennis Ritchie said: >There was also a process (whose name I forget and never >actually saw) with the same idea, except that it was >manual by sheet: it made a master like the Ditto, transferred the ink to >a tray with a gelatin-like surface, and you >pressed pieces of paper onto the gelatin. Yuk. But you >didn't need to buy a machine with a drum. Yes, this was called Hectograph - trade name, afaik, as was Ditto. I believe that Mimeograph was also a trade name (AB Dick). -- Julian Thomas jt at epix dot net http://home.epix.net/~jt In the beautiful Finger Lakes Wine Country of New York State! -------------------------------------------------- Cannot find REALITY.SYS. Universe halted. ###### From: jvarela@mind.spring.com (John Varela) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Mimeo, ditto Date: 13 Oct 1998 17:54:10 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <6vl5a3$tba$8@ligarius.ultra.net> <6vqhdj$1jq$13@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <3620f2b7.0@news.wizvax.net> <6vr0dp$en4$1@csnews.cs.colorado.edu> <3621aa51.5766234@news.vip.net> <3622CAB1.21F0@bell-labs.com> Reply-To: jvarela@mind.spring.com NNTP-Posting-Host: user-38lc478.dialup.mindspring.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: ProNews/2 Version 1.00 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!firehose.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail On Tue, 13 Oct 1998 03:36:18, Dennis Ritchie wrote: > Mimeograph uses a penetrable-fiber waxy paper. Typing > on it pushes away the wax at the key impressions. ..and don't make any mistakes because there's no way to correct it once it's typed. (Although I do recall changing commas to semicolons with a pocket knife, and I think you could sort of smear the wax around to do the inverse.) My theory is that Xerox caused engineering writing to go to hell. In the old days you wrote drafts and revised drafts and you got it right the first time because once you went to mimeo masters there was no way to make editorial changes. Nowadays people write crap and reviewers make wholesale changes and there are endless rewrites because no one takes the trouble to think first and do it right the first time. ObAFU: I've also heard the argument that computer simulation has done the same thing to mathematical analysis. -- John Varela (delete . between mind and spring to e-mail me) ###### From: jcmorris@mwunix.mitre.org (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Mimeo, ditto Date: 13 Oct 1998 17:59:20 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 30 Message-ID: <7004do$2ln@top.mitre.org> References: <3622CAB1.21F0@bell-labs.com> <6vvlkc$kbi$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: mwunix.mitre.org Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!18.24.4.11!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news-f.std.com.MISMATCH!world!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!mwunix!jcmorris jones@cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) writes: > Hah. Good for about 30 good copies, 20 medium quality copies, > and about 50 faint but readable impressions. Almost all ditto > copies were done in blue ink. The standard color was more purple than blue; at my previous shop (a huge state university) in the 20 years I was there from the mid-60s to the mid-80s we published most of our handouts via Ditto (spirit) duplication. Because of the color the handouts were popularly known as "purple passions". > Sadly, many of the original technical reports circulated by > the various labs developing computers in the 1940's were > dittoed, and one property of ditto ink is that it fades with > age. I once spent a day looking through very old tech reports > at the U of Illinois library, and found that many of the 1940's > tech reports are almost entirely unreadable. These are the > reports that contain notes on the debugging of the very first > generation of digital computers, and as a result, it is correct > to say that much of the history of that era is literally fading. As a single data point in opposition, my 1962 vintage MIT handouts for the PDP-1 and TX-0, although they were duplicated via a Ditto (spirit) process, are still quite readable with relatively minor fading. (I'll admit that they've been kept in cool surroundings and out of direct sunlight, however.) Joe Morris ###### From: jgd@alpha3.csd.uwm.edu (John G Dobnick) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Mimeo, ditto Date: 13 Oct 1998 22:24:45 GMT Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee Lines: 16 Message-ID: <700jvd$d54$1@uwm.edu> References: <3622CAB1.21F0@bell-labs.com> Reply-To: jgd@alpha3.csd.uwm.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.169.203 Originator: jgd@alpha3.csd.uwm.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!212.63.192.161.MISMATCH!newshub.bart.net!news.tele2.nl!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!chicago-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!uwm.edu!alpha3.csd.uwm.edu!jgd From article <3622CAB1.21F0@bell-labs.com>, by Dennis Ritchie : > Surprising that no one has clarified the technologies > for these. I'm weaker on the trademarks and common names. > > Ditto or spirit process used masters in two parts: Rex-O-Graph is the brand I'm familiar with. [Just *loved* that duplicator smell. :-) :-) ] -- John G Dobnick "Knowing how things work is the basis Information & Media Technologies for appreciation, and is thus a University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee source of civilized delight." jgd@csd.uwm.edu ATTnet: (414) 229-5727 -- William Safire ###### From: hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com (Lisa or Jeff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Mimeo, ditto Date: 13 Oct 1998 22:59:56 GMT Organization: Net Access BBS Lines: 35 Message-ID: <700m1c$nbd@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bbs.cpcn.com Originator: root@bbs.cpcn.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-xfer.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!netaxs.newsread.com!bbs.cpcn.com!root Do schools use either technology? When I was in school in the 1970s they made heavy use of both machines. My high school used mimeograph for student body wide notices (2,000 copies) and classroom and teacher notices (about 200). Each academic department had its own ditto machine which individual teachers used for class tests and handouts (30 copies per class, perhaps 60-90 copies in a run if the teacher used the same test for multiple classes.) They machines got plenty of use. When I got into industry, we had Xerox machines but they were limited to very serious use. We had to use meter keys and log every use. Much work still used carbon paper. Anything over 10 copies was sent to the company print shop for reproduction there. Eventually the cost of using Xerox machines came down, and they began to be used as high volume machines instead of offset. I wonder how the cost breaks down today. I would think even a first class mimeograph machine would still be cheaper to buy than a _high end_ Xerox machine, and certainly a lot cheaper to run, especially for high volume jobs (ie thousands of copies). But "cutting" stencils was always a pain. (I think the Gestetner company still makes electronic stencil cutters that take your copy and burn out a stencil.) And running a mimeo machine was messy work, you had to be real careful not to get ink on you. I would guess ditto is obsolete. Small volume Xerox machines are probably no more expensive than even a hand cranked spirit machine and obviously a lot easier to use. Any printing people out there? ###### From: David Wragg Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Mimeo, ditto Organization: French Toast! Lines: 61 Message-ID: References: <6vl5a3$tba$8@ligarius.ultra.net> <6vqhdj$1jq$13@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <3620f2b7.0@news.wizvax.net> <6vr0dp$en4$1@csnews.cs.colorado.edu> <3621aa51.5766234@news.vip.net> <3622CAB1.21F0@bell-labs.com> <6vumsa$95k@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Date: 13 Oct 1998 23:28:44 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.119.176.228 X-Complaints-To: news@u-net.net X-Trace: newsr2.u-net.net 908403853 194.119.176.228 (Wed, 14 Oct 1998 23:24:13 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 23:24:13 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!netnews.globalip.ch!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!btnet-peer!btnet-feed1!btnet!peer.news.zetnet.net!peer.news.bb.u-net.net!u-net!newsr2.u-net.net.POSTED!gatsby.u-net.com!not-for-mail Louis RAPHAEL writes: > Dennis Ritchie wrote: > : Mimeograph uses a penetrable-fiber waxy paper. Typing > : on it pushes away the wax at the key impressions. > : When the masters are attached > : to a drum with liquid but thick ink inside, some thousands of > : copies can be produced from each master: the ink "flows" > : through the master where the wax is pushed aside. The > : wearout mechanism is just wear on the master. Some > : solvent smell from the ink. Fair amount of set-up. These are usually just called "duplicators" in the U.K. > They work fairly decently, though... About a year ago, someone posted > to a local newsgroup that he was trying to get rid of one. I couldn't > help myself, and went to pick it up... quite a bit of fun. My dot > matrix printer does a fairly decent job of printing on the wax > stencils, and the machine itself runs fairly well. The number of > copies that it can output per minute is absolutely astounding. That > being said, I haven't really found a use for it yet, but I can't bear > to see it being thrown out, so I'm keeping it. If you want to run off a hundred copies of something, and aren't looking for brilliant print quality, they are great. (The hassle of setting one up with a particular stencil, and removing it afterwards, means that they aren't much good for a short run). And because the technology was pretty basic, they were relatively cheap. I suppose they were mostly killed by the drop in prices of heavy duty photocopiers. Duplicators were harder to operate, and because they involved ink could get messy. The fastest photocopiers I've seen are about the same speed as a duplicator. > As I was looking for the wax stencils (hard to find: AB Dick still > sells them), I was also offered (but for money, unfortunately - so I > passed it up) a scanner to scan an original onto a wax stencil. It > seemed to work with electric current melting/burning off pieces of > wax, or something like that. My dad had (probably still has) one (and a bunch of duplicators -- that's how I know about them). You're right about the mechanism. It has a metal drum a couple of feet long. The sheet to be scanned is wrapped around it at one end, and the stencil at the other. The drum spins (at about 5 r.p.s. I'd guess), an optical sensor reads the sheet, and a metal tip close to the stencil produces a spark (the metal drum is grounded) which melts (maybe even vaporizes) the wax in the appropriate places. The sensor and metal tip are attached to the ends of a long head which slowly moves horizontally across the sheet (at the sensor end) and stencil (at the metal tip end), so that the scan is completed in about 10 mins. The most memorable thing about this machine (it's several years since I last saw it in operation) was the incredible amount of ozone it produced, due to the nearly continuous spark. The smell was intense; I doubt it was within modern saftely levels for ozone. I've heard that modern duplicators are available which have a built-in scanner and automate the whole process (selling point: lower cost per page that photocopying), but I've never seen one. Dave Wragg ###### From: David Wragg Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Mimeo, ditto Organization: French Toast! Message-ID: References: <6vl5a3$tba$8@ligarius.ultra.net> <6vqhdj$1jq$13@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <3620f2b7.0@news.wizvax.net> <6vr0dp$en4$1@csnews.cs.colorado.edu> <3621aa51.5766234@news.vip.net> <3622CAB1.21F0@bell-labs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Date: 13 Oct 1998 23:41:09 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.119.176.228 X-Complaints-To: news@u-net.net X-Trace: newsr2.u-net.net 908403854 194.119.176.228 (Wed, 14 Oct 1998 23:24:14 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 23:24:14 BST Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!peer.news.bb.u-net.net!u-net!newsr2.u-net.net.POSTED!gatsby.u-net.com!not-for-mail jvarela@mind.spring.com (John Varela) writes: > On Tue, 13 Oct 1998 03:36:18, Dennis Ritchie > wrote: > > Mimeograph uses a penetrable-fiber waxy paper. Typing on it pushes > >away the wax at the key impressions. > > ..and don't make any mistakes because there's no way to correct it > once it's typed. (Although I do recall changing commas to semicolons > with a pocket knife, and I think you could sort of smear the wax > around to do the inverse.) There was a way to correct mistakes: a waxy substance dissolved in spirit, in small bottles. You painted it over the mistake waited a minute, and re-typed. Just like Tippex, in fact. Dave Wragg ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: eric@fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Subject: Re: Mimeo, ditto X-Nntp-Posting-Host: fudge.uchicago.edu Message-ID: Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) X-Newsposter: Pnews 4.0-test51 (15 Jan 97) Organization: The University of Chicago References: <3622CAB1.21F0@bell-labs.com> <6vvlkc$kbi$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 23:43:50 GMT Lines: 32 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879 wrote: > It's worth noting that Thomas Edison invented the mimeograph > process. His original mimeograph stencils were made using > a pen that strongly resembles a modern electrical tattoo > needle -- the resemblance is so strong that I suspect that > many tattoo parlors actually used (and may still use?) Edison > mimeograph stencil cutters as tattoo needles. According to an article by Chuck Eldridge in Volume 1, Issue 2 of _Tattoo World_, the equipment used for tattooing is related but not identical. According to the article, By the mid-1880s he [Samuel O'Reilly] had designed an electric machine for tattooing. Actually, a better description would be that he redesigned an existing machine. The existing machine was not made for tattooing, but for the puncture of paper for painting patterns. Thomas A. Edison received a patent for this device in 1876 and called it the autographic printing pen. I don't think you will have to study the illustrations very long to see the resemblance. O'Reilly waited the 14 years for the Edison patent to expire, and then with slight variations applied for and received the first patent for an electric tattoo machine, in December 1891. The U.S. patent, if anyone wants to look it up, is number 464,801. Given the thread this article is part of, I should also mention the use of hectograph technology to transfer tattoo stencils to skin, but someone else will have to fill in the details on that. eric ###### From: Louis RAPHAEL Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Mimeo, ditto Date: 14 Oct 1998 01:32:13 GMT Organization: Societe pour la promotion du petoncle vert Lines: 45 Message-ID: <700uut$f31@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca> References: <700m1c$nbd@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lisa.cs.mcgill.ca X-No-Archive: Yes User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971127 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.mcgill.ca!cs.mcgill.ca!raphael Lisa or Jeff wrote: : I wonder how the cost breaks down today. I would think even a first : class mimeograph machine would still be cheaper to buy than a _high end_ : Xerox machine, and certainly a lot cheaper to run, especially for : high volume jobs (ie thousands of copies). But "cutting" stencils : was always a pain. (I think the Gestetner company still makes : electronic stencil cutters that take your copy and burn out a stencil.) : And running a mimeo machine was messy work, you had to be real careful : not to get ink on you. When I went hunting for stencils for my Gestetner (and found that I could only get them from AB Dick, locally - they're AB Dick stencils, but with a hole punch, I can get them to work on the Gestetner), I had a bit of a chat with the guy at AB Dick (really friendly outfit, at least here in Montreal - obAFC, he used a VT220 to check inventory... and the guy on the next desk still had a printing terminal!), who told me that he had sold wax stencils to people who do printings on T-shirts. He also told me that they've got a modern variant on the ink duplicator, which is largely automated, and competitive for printing moderately large quantities of material in more than one colour. So the technology is /not/ completely dead (yet). YMMV. : I would guess ditto is obsolete. Small volume Xerox machines are : probably no more expensive than even a hand cranked spirit machine : and obviously a lot easier to use. Yes... I haven't seen Ditto in a long time - although I'm sure it could still have a place in the world. There are probably thirld-world schools that would love to have those old Ditto machines that are collecting dust in school board storerooms across North America. They're low-tech, relatively inexpensive to run, can probably be fixed by any reasonably competent person (so long as the problem isn't too serious), and as a bonus in extreme circumstances, the hand-crank models will even run without electricity (my CEGEP still had those - although nobody used them - when I first got there). : Any printing people out there? I think that misc.industry.printing would probably be the place to go for further discussions. Louis ###### From: ftit@engin.umich.edu (Sergej Roytman) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Mimeo, ditto Date: 14 Oct 1998 04:44:40 GMT Organization: University of Michigan, College of Engineering Lines: 23 Message-ID: <701a7o$87r@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> References: <6vl5a3$tba$8@ligarius.ultra.net> <3621aa51.5766234@news.vip.net> <3622CAB1.21F0@bell-labs.com> <3623636E.5D16@gazonk.del> NNTP-Posting-Host: beige.engin.umich.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.eecs.umich.edu!srvr1.engin.umich.edu!ftit In article <3623636E.5D16@gazonk.del>, Foobar T. Clown wrote: >Dennis Ritchie wrote: >> >> Surprising that no one has clarified the technologies >> for [various ways of printing-on-the-cheap]. > >Not surprising to me. I belong to a lost generation that never knew the >difference. Almost every handout I ever got in grade school or high >school was printed on a spirit duplicator, and everybody called the >process "mimeo." I've never seen a real mimeograph. Used to call this a "ditto" back in the days of my youth, I think. Fat (more so as more and more copies were made), light-blue lines on damp pieces of paper? Masters were made by hand, as typed text was too fine a resolution for the process to handle. The machines used to be run by kids called office aides who would later, no doubt, grow up to sit in the front rows of college lecture halls---what a horrible fate! Mmmmm, mm! If I try hard enough, I can still smell the fumes! -- Sergej Roytman ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: chris@transdata.co.nz ("chris 'fufas' grace") Subject: Re: Mimeo, ditto Message-ID: <1998Oct14.180453.22586@transdataco.nz> X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.0 Lines: 87 NNTP-Posting-Host: elizabeth X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 References: <6vl5a3$tba$8@ligarius.ultra.net> <6vqhdj$1jq$13@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <3620f2b7.0@news.wizvax.net> <6vr0dp$en4$1@csnews.cs.colorado.edu> <3621aa51.5766234@news.vip.net> <3622CAB1.21F0@bell-labs.com> Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 06:01:56 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!203.97.37.7!newsfeed.clear.net.nz!status.gen.nz!kcbbs!transdata!not-for-mail John Varela wrote in message ... >On Tue, 13 Oct 1998 03:36:18, Dennis Ritchie wrote: > >> Mimeograph uses a penetrable-fiber waxy paper. Typing >> on it pushes away the wax at the key impressions. > >..and don't make any mistakes because there's no way to correct it once it's >typed. (Although I do recall changing commas to semicolons with a pocket knife, >and I think you could sort of smear the wax around to do the inverse.) They had a correcting fluid for them which smelled something like nail polish, and was a wax solution. You painted over the mistake, let it set, then cut the stencil again. If you were really game, you dissected another stencil to get a pristine bit and patched the original with scotch tape, then used the correcting fluid to fill in the joins. A sort of pre photocomposition paste up. At one place I worked we had the 'electronic' stencil cutter, and the machine itself had four ink/drum units in CYMK. You ran the job through four times, (letting it dry each time), and you ended up with a passable full-colour image. The register on those things was pretty good. The machine was built by Gestetner, who also made spirit duplicators.[1]. We had one of those as well, and that also had an electronic master thingie which would scan originals and make spirit masters from them. I have always assumed that the term 'cut', when used to mean the preparation of military orders and shipping documents, refers to the fact that at one time they were actually physically cut onto stencils. The spirit duplicators were technically hectographs as the process they used was analogous to the jelly based version described by other posters to this thread. I actually received a jelly-based hectograph for my 11th Birthday, prompting an early (1960) entry into the desktop publishing business. It was not a wet process at all. The jelly itself was a mixture of gelatin and glycerine with a preservative, and it set quite hard (you couldn't dig your finger nail in it, for example). The ink was black; I was told you could get colours but never saw them. It had a greenish tinge, which makes me think it was aniline based, and it never really dried. It also stained everything it touched - permanently. Otherwise it was as described. When you had finished with the job, you simply washed the top layer of jelly off with a wet sponge (taking the ink with it), then put the whole thing in a warm oven for 10 minutes. This melted the jelly and removed any washmarks to give a nice smooth surface. I remember seeing several articles about making them in books like 'The Big Boy's Book of Fun' and 'Exciting Projects to make at home'. I'll have a look round some secondhand bookshops and see if I can find an authentic receipt. <-- authentic spelling, too! [1] Whatever happened to Gestetner? The last I heard they had acquired Hanimex, but I haven't heard of them for 7 or 8 years. -- The Market Is Always Right. If you see something that looks like the market is wrong, it is you who are wrong. All hail the mighty market. -- Brian Scearce ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Mimeo, ditto Date: Wed, 14 Oct 98 10:13:36 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <7021re$qrm$5@strato.ultra.net> References: <3622CAB1.21F0@bell-labs.com> <700jvd$d54$1@uwm.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: d14.dial-11.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 14 Oct 1998 11:27:42 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.xcom.net!news.ultranet.com!d14 In article <700jvd$d54$1@uwm.edu>, jgd@alpha3.csd.uwm.edu (John G Dobnick) wrote: >From article <3622CAB1.21F0@bell-labs.com>, by Dennis Ritchie : >> Surprising that no one has clarified the technologies >> for these. I'm weaker on the trademarks and common names. >> >> Ditto or spirit process used masters in two parts: > > Rex-O-Graph is the brand I'm familiar with. > > [Just *loved* that duplicator smell. :-) :-) ] > Yup. Our secretary who frowned on people who drank, plans her afternoons to maximize her exposure to that smell :-). Every once in a while, she'ld let up sniff a recently used master....but only if we were very, very good. /BAH Sigh! - Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Mimeo, ditto Date: Wed, 14 Oct 98 10:19:34 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 32 Message-ID: <70226l$qrm$6@strato.ultra.net> References: <6vl5a3$tba$8@ligarius.ultra.net> <6vqhdj$1jq$13@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <3620f2b7.0@news.wizvax.net> <6vr0dp$en4$1@csnews.cs.colorado.edu> <3621aa51.5766234@news.vip.net> <3622CAB1.21F0@bell-labs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: d14.dial-11.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 14 Oct 1998 11:33:41 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!212.63.192.161.MISMATCH!newshub.bart.net!news.tele2.nl!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!209.244.253.199!newsfeed.xcom.net!news.ultranet.com!d14 In article , thvv@best.com (Tom Van Vleck) wrote: >And to tie Dennis's post to computing: >back in the sixties, large projects were coordinated by >paper documents, and the reproduction of these documents >was a major expense and concern. Design memos for the Multics >project in 1966 were typically >- handwritten by programmers >- typed by secretaries >- corrected and retyped >- typed on ditto masters and distributed for review > (These documents came out in bluish-purple ink that faded over time. > Some old MIT memos I have are unreadable.) >- corrected and retyped on paper-tape Flexowriters by secretaries >- mimeographed from masters prepared from the paper tape >- distributed to all project members And those secretaries were wizards. The only times that I saw the math types be humble was when they needed the secretaries' expertise. I remember one who was a whiz with the switchblade (you all call them Exacto knives) and could mark in all those math symbols upside-down (I can't remember if they had to be inverted) on the masters. And the really, really humble times were when a correction had to be done. The math types didn't quite crawl into the secretary's office on their knees but they made it clear that they would if it was required :-). /BAH Sigh! - Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: ajsulliv@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA (Andrew J. Sullivan) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Mimeo, ditto Date: 15 Oct 1998 16:39:59 -0400 Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <705miv$n4o@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA> References: <6vl5a3$tba$8@ligarius.ultra.net> <3621aa51.5766234@news.vip.net> <3622CAB1.21F0@bell-labs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!130.185.14.36!torn!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA!not-for-mail In article , John Varela wrote: >My theory is that Xerox caused engineering writing to go to hell. . . . >Nowadays people write crap and reviewers make wholesale changes and >there are endless rewrites because no one takes the trouble to think first and >do it right the first time. And this is supposed to be peculiar to engineering writing?! Besides, this leaves out the effect of editors, who too often seem to be people who refuse to believe that they have less mastery of the subject than does the author. -- Andrew Sullivan <---- worse <---- better ###### From: jvarela@mind.spring.com (John Varela) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Mimeo, ditto Date: 16 Oct 1998 22:00:51 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <6vl5a3$tba$8@ligarius.ultra.net> <6vqhdj$1jq$13@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <3620f2b7.0@news.wizvax.net> <6vr0dp$en4$1@csnews.cs.colorado.edu> <3621aa51.5766234@news.vip.net> <3622CAB1.21F0@bell-labs.com> Reply-To: jvarela@mind.spring.com NNTP-Posting-Host: user-37kbm19.dialup.mindspring.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: ProNews/2 Version 1.00 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!firehose.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail On Tue, 13 Oct 1998 23:41:09, David Wragg wrote: > There was a way to correct mistakes: a waxy substance dissolved in > spirit, in small bottles. You painted it over the mistake waited a > minute, and re-typed. Just like Tippex, in fact. Right! I remember that now. The problem was getting the stencil back in the typewriter so that the new typing aligned correctly with the old typing both up-down and left-right. That was OK for changing a single character (or maybe squeezing in an apostrophe) but if more was to be changed then the character count had to be the same. -- John Varela (delete . between mind and spring to e-mail me) ###### From: jtkare@ibm.net (Jordin Kare) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Mimeo, ditto Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 16:35:24 -0700 Organization: Sirius Connections Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <6vl5a3$tba$8@ligarius.ultra.net> <6vqhdj$1jq$13@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <3620f2b7.0@news.wizvax.net> <6vr0dp$en4$1@csnews.cs.colorado.edu> <3621aa51.5766234@news.vip.net> <3622CAB1.21F0@bell-labs.com> <6vumsa$95k@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-asok01--015.sirius.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.wli.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news1.best.com!newshub.sirius.com!newsfiler.sirius.com!ppp-asok01--015.sirius.net!user In article , David Wragg wrote: > > I've heard that modern duplicators are available which have a built-in > scanner and automate the whole process (selling point: lower cost per > page that photocopying), but I've never seen one. The RisoGraph is a Japanese-made automatic duplicator system that uses a mimeograph-type process. Masters are "cut" by a digital printing mechanism at 400 dpi, from either a scanner or computer interface, then printed at (as I recall) up to 120 impressions per minute, which is considerably faster than comparably-priced and -sized copiers. The things are the size of a small desk or large copier with stand. They also have lower per-copy cost than copiers for runs over 50 or so (masters cost something like 70 cents each) and can print in a wider range of colors. Machine cost is somewhere around $15K. Good concept for high volume copying, but apparently has quality and/or reliability problems, as they don't seem to have caught on widely. Another case where the competing technology (xerography) has had much more invested and thus is too hard to overtake. BTW, small offset presses are also fun, and A.B.Dick at one time marketed a "full auto" platemaker/press system (the 1117?) that looked like a large copier. You put a page face-down on a glass plate, pushed one button, and it would a) expose a printing plate b) develop the plate c) mount the plate on the builtin offset press d) run a preset number of copies e) eject the plate A mechanical nightmare, but pretty impressive Jordin Kare