From: ajsulliv@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA (Andrew J. Sullivan) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: University networks (was: Diversity in computing) Date: 3 Oct 1998 12:46:21 -0400 Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Lines: 23 Message-ID: <6v5kct$jk2@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA> References: <361342CD.691A6A29@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <6v0dnn$qvg$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!btnet-peer!btnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!130.185.14.36!torn!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA!not-for-mail In article , Peter Seebach wrote: >Most universities have horribly mismanaged computer networks. Why is this? I've noticed at several universities that merely finding out basic things is a kind of trial by fire: no-one knows, and if they knew, they wouldn't tell you anyway. Is it just because of the size of most universities, or the age of the network-controlling organization (you know, entropy & all that), or is it the committee-driven nature of universities? I prefer the latter explanation myself: as an acquaintance of mine observed to me recently, "The problem with committees is that, every now and then, someone decides that he has to sh*t a big pile." But I'd like to know what explanation others, who are wiser than I, can offer. A. -- Andrew Sullivan <---- worse <---- better ###### From: spam@orion-com.com (Joe Thompson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: University networks (was: Diversity in computing) Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 17:08:28 -0400 Organization: Orion Computer Consulting Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <361342CD.691A6A29@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <6v0dnn$qvg$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <6v5kct$jk2@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA> NNTP-Posting-Host: user-37kbabt.dialup.mindspring.com X-Server-Date: 3 Oct 1998 21:08:16 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-dc.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!firehose.mindspring.com!spam In article <6v5kct$jk2@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA>, ajsulliv@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA (Andrew J. Sullivan) wrote: > In article , > Peter Seebach wrote: > > >Most universities have horribly mismanaged computer networks. > > Why is this? I've noticed at several universities that merely finding out > basic things is a kind of trial by fire: no-one knows, and if they knew, > they wouldn't tell you anyway. At least at the University of Virginia, I attribute it to the desire to be held responsible for as little as possible. i.e., "If we tell you how to do that, you'll hold us responsible for making sure it continues to work, and for helping you when you have trouble, and for periodic upgrades, and..." -- Joe -- Joe Thompson | "Boiling, carbonated coffee." -- Thorfinn spam@orion-com.com | http://kensey.home.mindspring.com/ Charlottesville, VA | O- He-Who-Grinds-the-Unworthy | I have brown eyes AND I VOTE! ###### From: Greg Menke Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: University networks (was: Diversity in computing) Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 20:02:08 -0400 Lines: 49 Message-ID: <3616BAFF.889D6ADA@erols.com> References: <361342CD.691A6A29@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <6v0dnn$qvg$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <6v5kct$jk2@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207-172-128-17.s17.tnt1.col.erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: winter.news.erols.com 907459167 7871 207.172.128.17 (3 Oct 1998 23:59:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.35 i586) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!diablo.theplanet.net!btnet-peer!btnet!newshub.northeast.verio.net!howland.erols.net!master.news.rcn.net!not-for-mail Andrew J. Sullivan wrote: > In article , > Peter Seebach wrote: > > >Most universities have horribly mismanaged computer networks. > > Why is this? I've noticed at several universities that merely finding out > basic things is a kind of trial by fire: no-one knows, and if they knew, > they wouldn't tell you anyway. > > Is it just because of the size of most universities, or the age of the > network-controlling organization (you know, entropy & all that), or is it > the committee-driven nature of universities? I prefer the latter > explanation myself: as an acquaintance of mine observed to me recently, > "The problem with committees is that, every now and then, someone decides > that he has to sh*t a big pile." But I'd like to know what explanation > others, who are wiser than I, can offer. > > A. > > -- > Andrew Sullivan > <---- worse > <---- better Its not only Universities, I was a gov't contractor for a few years and their network admin/engineering operations suffered from the same problems- and I don't think the dept I worked for was much different from any of the others, certainly the contractor's wern't. I vote for entropy effect- anyone who administrates email for a large decentralized organization will agree, I think. The think thats bad about the contracting arrangement is you can often get dinosaur federal employees who make policy straight out of PC Magazine (or worse) and you can't disagree with them. Basically you're there on tolerance- your contracting company wants you there to get the billable hours, and if the client complains however stupidly, you can be out of there really quick- the contractor wants the hours, not you. All that works towards an environment where the feds have largely unrestricted controls over goes on (or doesn't)- if they know what they're doing, great, but if they don't- then you get stupidity. From what I've seen so far, the private sector is sort of better- but not a lot. Gregm ###### From: spalding@iol.ie (Nick Spalding) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: University networks (was: Diversity in computing) Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 11:52:21 +0100 Organization: Ireland On-Line Lines: 12 Message-ID: <36225312.237433423@news.iol.ie> References: <361342CD.691A6A29@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <6v0dnn$qvg$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <6v5kct$jk2@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA> Reply-To: spalding@iol.ie NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-0562.dublin.iol.ie Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!iol!iol.ie!not-for-mail Andrew J. Sullivan wrote: > Is it just because of the size of most universities, or the age of the > network-controlling organization (you know, entropy & all that), or is it > the committee-driven nature of universities? I prefer the latter > explanation myself: as an acquaintance of mine observed to me recently, > "The problem with committees is that, every now and then, someone decides > that he has to sh*t a big pile." But I'd like to know what explanation > others, who are wiser than I, can offer. Also "A committee is a group of people who individually can decide nothing but collectively can decide that nothing should be done". ###### From: Bruce Cook Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: University networks (was: Diversity in computing) Date: 05 Oct 1998 01:00:28 -0800 Organization: Synonet Corporation - The Bicycle Factory Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <361342CD.691A6A29@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <6v0dnn$qvg$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <6v5kct$jk2@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA> <36225312.237433423@news.iol.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: per4-224.wantree.com.au X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Cache-Post-Path: cletus.smithst!unknown@donal.tara X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3b3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.per.connect.com.au!news.waia.asn.au!news.wantree.com.au!not-for-mail spalding@iol.ie (Nick Spalding) writes: [...] > Also "A committee is a group of people who individually can decide > nothing but collectively can decide that nothing should be done". "A committee is an animal with many heads but no brain". -- ...BRU Bruce Cook, Synonet Corp. E-Mail: bruce@bicycle.synonet.com Phone: +61 147 967 468 Fax: +61 8 9227 7390 ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: University networks (was: Diversity in computing) Date: 04 Oct 1998 20:50:03 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 54 Message-ID: References: <361342CD.691A6A29@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <6v0dnn$qvg$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <6v5kct$jk2@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 ajsulliv@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA (Andrew J. Sullivan) writes: > > Peter Seebach wrote: > > >Most universities have horribly mismanaged computer networks. > > Why is this? I've noticed at several universities that merely finding out > basic things is a kind of trial by fire: no-one knows, and if they knew, > they wouldn't tell you anyway. > > Is it just because of the size of most universities, Size certainly has its costs. Simply finding the proper person can be needle in haystack stuff. > or the age of the > network-controlling organization (you know, entropy & all that), or is it > the committee-driven nature of universities? I prefer the latter > explanation myself: as an acquaintance of mine observed to me recently, > "The problem with committees is that, every now and then, someone decides > that he has to sh*t a big pile." Or "justify" their existance. > But I'd like to know what explanation > others, who are wiser than I, can offer. That would be an explanation for things that require planning. But normal reliability (mail or web servers not working) are normaly the result of lots of youngsters just cutting their teeth on server administration and not having yet developed an sense for keeping uptime where it belongs. "Quickly change this", "Oh do a quick reboot" and similar things without really thinking of the long range consequences abound in an environment where over 10 people have root passwords. This is particularly so in CS departments (where the original poster was complaining about. Don't ever mention application developers with root passwords and missconfigured timeservers when I am around. Neil "University System Admin" Franklin -- *** New home Addresses Mail and Web *** home: neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ work: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ Microsoft is Software Communism, Fight for GNU Freedom! ###### From: tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: University networks (was: Diversity in computing) Date: 5 Oct 1998 17:31:11 GMT Organization: Mechanist Industries Lines: 39 Message-ID: <6vavov$ffc4@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> References: <361342CD.691A6A29@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <6v0dnn$qvg$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <6v5kct$jk2@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA> Reply-To: tph@rmi.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cs0053.eld.ford.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!208.128.37.8!feeder.lobo.net!feeder.swcp.com!fugu!lynx.unm.edu!jobone!dailyplanet.srl.ford.com!eccws1.dearborn.ford.com!longhorn!tph Andrew J. Sullivan (ajsulliv@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA) wrote: : Is it just because of the size of most universities, or the age of the : network-controlling organization (you know, entropy & all that), or is it : the committee-driven nature of universities? I prefer the latter : explanation myself: as an acquaintance of mine observed to me recently, : "The problem with committees is that, every now and then, someone decides : that he has to sh*t a big pile." But I'd like to know what explanation : others, who are wiser than I, can offer. In at least some cases it results from computing resources that are so decentralized that they fall under the control of people who don't know any better. The Electrical Engineering department of a local university received several Suns via donation a few years ago. They set them up in a room with circuit simulators and the like. They didn't have anyone in the department who had any experience managing such systems, nor any money to hire anyone new. And they didn't want to bring in the university-wide computer services group because (a) this would be a loss of control for the department, and (b) computing services' skills were pretty much limited to Macs and PCs anyway. So they gave the admin job to a lab technician. Not a bad guy, and not stupid or anything, but someone with no experience in this area. Some months later I was taking a class in which I used these Suns. I discovered that the admin had very nearly got a clue on security matters and had run "crack" on the system to find easily-guessed passwords. He had, however, left the results of this run in an easily-located and world- readable file. I wasn't looking for security holes, but I accidentally stumbled across 30-40 valid passwords for the system. I don't know what's up with these Suns anymore, but I don't imagine it's the best-run system in the world. -- Tom Harrington --------- tph@rmii.com -------- http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph "Freedom of choice is what you got! Freedom from choice is what you want!" -Devo Cookie's Revenge: ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/tph/cookie/cookies-revenge.sit.hqx