From: nickb@primenet.com (Nick S Bensema) Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: 23 Sep 1998 03:01:08 GMT Organization: PrImE NuT (602)864-1005 <--- <--- <--- Lines: 98 Message-ID: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@globalcenter.net X-Posted-By: nickb@206.165.6.202 (nickb) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test58 (13 May 97) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!worldfeed.news.gte.net!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail For all you guys out there in the trenches, fixing those Y2K programs... The rolling-over of a two-digit year can cause a great deal of problems, I am aware. And these problems come up in many different ways. For example, comparisons could come out wrong, ninety years of negative interest is applied, etc. And the catastrophic consequences of not fixing this problem have been pointed out on many levels. And I know that if the analysts and managers are bozos, it will slow everything down. However, I can't seem to imagine the problem as being that difficult to fix in a practical sense. After all, the nature of the problem is obvious, and the implementation solutions, while varied and tedious, are easier to fix than those mysterious bugs. You know the type, the bugs that make the database think all the users are named Mary Anderson and nobody knows why. But, since I haven't worked in the industry yet, I know that my opinion is stained by naïveté. Therefore, I don't know which of two possibilities is the case: that the fixes are easy but it's a matter of tedium and time constraints, or that the fixes have more difficult solutions than I am led to believe. Therefore, I would like to know about the most common manifestations of these bugs, and whether there are any where the fix is less than obvious. What I'd like to know is, are there any Y2K-related bugs which are less obvious than what I'm thinking of? Here are the elements of a program I know of that will stop working when dealing with a century barrier. 1. Subtraction, for both interval and progressive calculations. 99 - 97, should be 2, result is 2. Good. 01 - 99, should be 2, result is 98. Bad. 2. Comparison: 99 > 97, should be true, result is true. Good. 01 > 97, should be true, result is false. Bad. 3. Leap year for interval calculations. I imagine the biggest consequence of this will be the wrath of predatory lawyers, heading million-dollar class action suits for all those five-cent interest discrepancies. 4. Sort routines. I had an idea recently of a neat, if strange, theory on how to fix this in certain types of year fields. If I found one that was a single BCD byte (usage is comp-6), I could do this: ENVIRONMENT DIVISION. SPECIAL-NAMES. ALPHABET DATE-ELEMENTS IS X'77' THROUGH X'99'. And, for SORT commands I would simply need to use the COLLATING SEQUENCE IS DATE-ELEMENTS clause. If I'm not mistaken, the remaining years (2000 through 2076) would be sorted after 1999, though I'm not yet sure if this will be the case on a descending sort. If this is the case, one could use this alphabet for the month and day as well. 5. Addition. 97 + 2 should be 99, result is 99, good. 99 + 2 should be 01, result is 01, good. This bug's biggest problem is it lets you think subtraction works the same way, and otherwise disguises the underlying problems. 6. Leap year for scheduling purposes. Suppose your program thinks there is a February 29 but your computer does not, or vice-versa. This is probably an embedded systems issue, though. OK, that's six I can think of. And they can all be fixed in one way or another. As evidenced in #4, one could work around a lot of these in clever ways if one wants to simply survive the new millenium in lieu of working over the whole database for four-digit years. I"d like to know if there's some kind of "Top 10 Parts of a Program That Will Break In Y2K" list, and if not, can someone with more experience point out what I missed? Or, will I be spending most of my time on concerns other than this? Because, right now, I'm not scared. Well, OK, the long hours and the testing and the time constraints and the imminent collapse of civilization are all a little intimidating. Once I get hired, however, I'm not yet sure I'll find anything within the scope of my job that will stump me. -- Nick Bensema 98-KUPD Red Card #710563 UIN: 2135445 ~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ duh ###### From: "George R. Gonzalez" Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 23:47:55 -0500 Organization: SkyPoint Communications, Inc. Lines: 31 Message-ID: <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial343.skypoint.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!news.pagesat.net!skypoint.com!not-for-mail Nick S Bensema wrote in message <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>... >However, I can't seem to imagine the problem as being that difficult >to fix in a practical sense. The problems are "practical" problems... You have to find: (1) The source code. (2) A device that will read the source code. (3) Someone that knows the programming language. (4) Someone that knows that dialect. (5) A compiler that will compile that particular dialect of FORTRAN IV (68) or whatever. (6) The third-party library that the program calls 864 times. (7) The deck of compiler and link directives that the program needs. (8) The test data to validate the program. (9) Someone to write a new program to generate new test data. (10) For safety related programs, the govt. inspector to pass judgement. --- Any one of these can be a real show-stopper, or at least make the job non-trivial. duh ###### From: nickb@primenet.com (Nick S Bensema) Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: 23 Sep 1998 06:53:25 GMT Organization: PrImE NuT (602)864-1005 <--- <--- <--- Lines: 53 Message-ID: <6ua5t5$nao$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net> X-Complaints-To: abuse@globalcenter.net X-Posted-By: nickb@206.165.6.201 (nickb) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test58 (13 May 97) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail In article <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net>, George R. Gonzalez wrote: > >The problems are "practical" problems... You have to find: > >(1) The source code. >(2) A device that will read the source code. I bet someone has hacked an OCR program that reads punched cards or paper tape coming in from a fax line. I bet someone is even selling such a thing. >(4) Someone that knows that dialect. A lot of students at DeVry are wondering why we're learning CICS when only, like, 5% of all on-line systems are using it. Now I know, I guess. >(5) A compiler that will compile that particular dialect of FORTRAN IV >(68) or whatever. I think you skipped a few, there, and number 68 is sort of vague. Though, converting between dialects seems more tedious than hairy. >(8) The test data to validate the program. The cool thing would be if the test data found out that the program was functionally Y2K compliant the whole time... I imagine it's rare but I can't imagine it never ever happening. >(9) Someone to write a new program to generate new test data. We've gotten through eight items, through feeding punched cards one-by-one into a fax machine, through tracking down a BOZOL compiler that only your company bought (hopefully without having to exhume any systems analysts), through converting BOZOL '63 code into the new, improved BOZOL '65 code, reverse-engineering and rewriting an often-used library, not to mention making the Y2K fixes and/or workarounds. If all you need is test data at this point, you probably have someone in your firm who can generate it telepathically. >Any one of these can be a real show-stopper, or at least make the job >non-trivial. hmm...not yet part of an entry-level job, though. -- Nick Bensema 98-KUPD Red Card #710563 UIN: 2135445 ~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ duh ###### Message-ID: <3608BC44.277FBC85@trailing-edge.com> From: Tim Shoppa Organization: Trailing Edge Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.0 DEC 3000 Model 300L) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net> <6ua5t5$nao$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:15:48 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.232.144.27 X-Trace: audrey2.cais.com 906556999 198.232.144.27 (Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:23:19 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:23:19 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!outfeed1.news.cais.net!in1.nntp.cais.net!199.0.216.204.MISMATCH!audrey2.cais.com!not-for-mail Nick S Bensema wrote: > In article <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net>, > George R. Gonzalez wrote: > >The problems are "practical" problems... You have to find: > >(1) The source code. > >(2) A device that will read the source code. > > I bet someone has hacked an OCR program that reads punched cards > or paper tape coming in from a fax line. > > I bet someone is even selling such a thing. Why bother, when I (and many others) sell services for reading such media using real paper tape readers and real punched card readers? Even the slowest card readers read at a rate of a several cards a second; and optical paper tape readers that read at hundreds of characters per second are readily available. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 ###### From: "G. van Vlimmeren" Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: 23 Sep 1998 09:23:41 GMT Organization: World Online Lines: 37 Message-ID: <01bde6d4$9efa4920$2c050380@s70> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net> <6ua5t5$nao$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vp207-92.worldonline.nl X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!btnet-peer!btnet!news-feed1.eu.concert.net!news.worldonline.nl!not-for-mail Nick, I have to agree with you that the Y2K problems aren't really trivial. It's basically calculating the right year and calculating a leap year, that's it. But.... For example, we're working on a mainframe that uses timestamps on files. This is a 250+ users machine that runs 24 hours a day. We had to rent a similar machine to go to the year '2000' and test if all would work well, be cause we coudn't use our own machine. We had to scan all software for date-related jokes beforehand (some proggies dating back to 1967, non-documented of course). We had to look at files that had to be stretched and to modify the proggies that used those files, and of course divise a method of testing this stuff.... All that combined with regular day-to-day work. So the problem is time and money, not intellect. Other Y2K related problems are a bit more dangerous. We're talking 'embedded' software. Software that's driving parts of production facilities, etc... Will the nuclear power plant shut down on a wrong leap day? Stuff like that, that's almost impossible to detect and difficult to test. There's 3 steps everyone has to go through 1. Do we have a problem? 2. Fix the problem 3. Test the fix. That 3 times money & time. 2 is the easiest part. Gerben van Vlimmeren Syson Automatisering Bull DPS Cobol ###### From: "Judson McClendon" Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Lines: 17 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: <864O1.317$R_4.693780@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 10:31:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.214.104.89 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 06:31:32 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net!news3.mia.bellsouth.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Nick S Bensema wrote: > >However, I can't seem to imagine the problem as being that difficult >to fix in a practical sense. Nick, the issue isn't that the bugs are hard to fix. The issue is the enormous amount of code which must be fixed in a very short period of time. In most instances Y2K remediation can be done by programmer newbies. But fixing several billion lines of code just takes a while. -- Judson McClendon judmc123@bellsouth.net (remove numbers) Sun Valley Systems http://personal.bhm.bellsouth.net/~judmc "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." ###### From: "George R. Gonzalez" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:30:36 -0500 Organization: University of Minnesota, Twin Cities Campus Lines: 27 Message-ID: <6ub7u7$ofr$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net> <6uatp2$kd2$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: grg1.micro.umn.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsbottom.ais.net!newshub.tc.umn.edu!news1.tc.umn.edu!not-for-mail glass2@glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com wrote in message <6uatp2$kd2$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>... >Quite a bit of the source code out there is very poorly commented, >if it's commented at all, and, perhaps worse, even when it is >commented, the comments are wrong On my first day of my first real job I was supposed to figure out several pages of assembly language code that was used to drive a special, custom made speech synthesizer. The only comment was on a line that had: 6417 / ** ZAP THE CLOCK ** Needless to say, I already knew the I/O op code was "6", the clock was device "41", and function "7" would clear the clock. So the only comment in the whole thing was redundant. And no, the clock didnt have a year 2000 problem. It overflowed every 4096 ticks, so the horizon was much closer... ###### From: Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:33:22 -0400 Organization: Kettering University (formerly GMI E&MI) - Flint MI Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6uauai$7pe@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: nova.kettering.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: <6uauai$7pe@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!24.128.1.125!chnws03.mediaone.net!24.131.1.12!denws01.mw.mediaone.net!news.gmi.edu!nova.kettering.edu!lee1089 All this talk about the problems of converting old software has me wondering something. Wouldn't it be easier to rewrite the programs than to modify the existing ones? You know, look at the data files and I/O from the current program and use that info to design a new program that used 4 digit dates and a conversion program to convert the data files to 4 digit dates as well. ____________________________________________________________________________ | "A little nonsense now and then, | "If it walks out of the fridge, let Is relished by the wisest men." | it go" -- John Dougherty --W.W. | "If it loves you it will come back." | -- Ian Davis __________________________________|_________________________________________ ###### From: "George R. Gonzalez" Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:39:47 -0500 Organization: University of Minnesota, Twin Cities Campus Lines: 31 Message-ID: <6ub8fe$om6$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6uauai$7pe@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: grg1.micro.umn.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!199.0.154.57!newsbottom.ais.net!newshub.tc.umn.edu!news1.tc.umn.edu!not-for-mail lee1089@kettering.edu wrote in message ... > >All this talk about the problems of converting old software has me >wondering something. Wouldn't it be easier to rewrite the programs than to >modify the existing ones? You know, look at the data files and I/O >from the current program and use that info to design a new program that >used 4 digit dates and a conversion program to convert the data files to 4 >digit dates as well. That would be swell but often you can't deduce exactly what goes on by just looking at input and output of test cases. There are plenty of programs that have been patched to recognize that ZIP code XXXXX is a high-crime area, so those shipments should go by shipper X instead of Y, because X's drivers are meaner. There's probably many programs that depend on subtle undocumented features... Such as DEC FORTRAN would automatically ignore spaces and tabs in some contexts. Or the next program down the line watches out for "RUN TIME ERROR 4223" in its input stream and compensates for it. Or someone made a binary patch to change the page width... Or programs X and Y communicate using some long-lost binary file format known only to the 1963 FORTRAN II compiler... The list is almost endless... ###### Message-ID: <360954DA.DF6921DB@oz.net> Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 13:06:50 -0700 From: Dave Brockman Organization: Acme Anvil Works X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net> <6uatp2$kd2$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <6ub7u7$ofr$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!204.71.0.51!news-out.internetmci.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.oz.net!206.71.127.183 George R. Gonzalez wrote: > > 6417 / ** ZAP THE CLOCK ** > > Needless to say, I already knew the I/O op code was "6", the clock was > device "41", and function "7" would clear the clock. So the only comment > in the whole thing was redundant. > > And no, the clock didnt have a year 2000 problem. It overflowed every > 4096 ticks, so the horizon was much closer... A PDP-8 perhaps? ************************** Dave Brockman/Portable http://www.oz.net/~daveb ************************** ###### From: glass2@glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: 23 Sep 1998 13:40:50 GMT Organization: IBM Austin Lines: 102 Message-ID: <6uatp2$kd2$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net> Reply-To: wa4qal@vnet.ibm.com NNTP-Posting-Host: glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsgate.tandem.com!uunet!in4.uu.net!an02.austin.ibm.com!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!not-for-mail In <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net>, "George R. Gonzalez" writes: > >Nick S Bensema wrote in message <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>... > > >>However, I can't seem to imagine the problem as being that difficult >>to fix in a practical sense. > >The problems are "practical" problems... You have to find: > > >(1) The source code. >(2) A device that will read the source code. >(3) Someone that knows the programming language. >(4) Someone that knows that dialect. >(5) A compiler that will compile that particular dialect of FORTRAN IV >(68) or whatever. >(6) The third-party library that the program calls 864 times. >(7) The deck of compiler and link directives that the program needs. >(8) The test data to validate the program. >(9) Someone to write a new program to generate new test data. >(10) For safety related programs, the govt. inspector to pass judgement. > >--- > >Any one of these can be a real show-stopper, or at least make the job >non-trivial. > > > >duh > Oh, and you left a few problems out. If the proposed solution involves changing the year fields in a database, then you have to make sure the database is updated at the same time that every tool which accesses the database is updated. Including that home-grown little tool that Bill uses once every four years to strip out any entries in the database with invalid year information, which he's squirreled away on a tape in his lower left desk drawer. Oh, and after he's run that tool and messed up the database, don't even think about recovering a backup that was made before the year fields were enlarged. In the early 1990s, I worked on a piece of production level code which had a cryptic comment of the form: The following two lines of code are a temporary fix for the multiple assignment problem. September 17, 1971 Now, did I touch those two lines of code? NO! That's the only explanation and documentation that was available. I figured if that temporary fix had survived for over 20 years, it was good enough to last another 20. :*) (And, they're still in the product.) Quite a bit of the source code out there is very poorly commented, if it's commented at all, and, perhaps worse, even when it is commented, the comments are wrong (Oh, if I only had a nickle for every incorrect comment I've seen.). It can literally take years for someone to read the source code in order to figure out what it's doing. And, try as we might, none of us has been able to push back the scheduled changed of the century. :*) Also, don't forget that memory was expensive back then. VERY expensive (Factoid: In 1957, IBM set a low price for memory. For the first time, it sold memory at less than US$1.00 per bit. It was selling a memory unit which contained approximately one million bits of memory (bits, not bytes), for about US$987,000!). Thus, programmers were very careful about how much storage they used. And, they'd frequently reuse variables for different purposes, just to minimize storage usage. And, we don't even want to get into self modifying code, do we? I think the biggest concern, though, is with applications for which the source has been lost. Or, even worse, maybe there are a dozen different possible source copies, and no one knows which one is the real source and which are buggy versions. Oh, and the compiler which was used to compile that source only runs on OS/360, and the last hardware which ran that operating system was ripped out 20 years ago (I've actually had experience with this problem!). And, even if you could get one of the sources compiled, what about all of the machine instruction patches which have been applied to the executable code over the past 25 years? Or, does anyone now even remember it's been patched? IBM is actually working on a product to assist with the detection and remediation of Year/2000 problems, for their MVS/ESA and OS/390 operating systems, in executable object code form (e.g. no source available). More information can be found on the IBM web-page. In any case, it'll be interesting to watch the turn of the century, ideally from a nice small island somewhere in the South Pacific. :*) Dave P.S. Standard Disclaimer: I work for them, but I don't speak for them. ###### From: lingman@wcars05r.nortel.ca (Danny Lingman) Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: 23 Sep 1998 13:50:10 GMT Organization: Northern Telecom Lines: 25 Message-ID: <6uauai$7pe@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: wcars05r.ca.nortel.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!btnet-peer!btnet-feed2!btnet!bmdhh222.europe.nortel.com!bcarh8ac.ca.nortel.com!bcarh8ab.bnr.ca!wcars05r!lingman Another thing to watch out for is offsets, caching etc. Ie - you have a 2 digit date field imbedded into the middle of a DB record. Your C program allocates enough room to accept an entire record. (or a block of 500 of them). You have now changed your record size from 764 bytes to 766 bytes. You not only have to look for numbers that are 764 bytes (and multiples), but anything that does math to access a field in that block of memory. Some edge conditions can cause problems - you expand a structure from 32K bytes to 32K+2 bytes. Your evil and braindead memory allocator gives you memory in blocks of 2^n bytes. instead of getting 32K chunks, you now get 64K chunks. (to make things worse, the structure may have been padded out to 32K, and youforgot to alter the padding). All of a sudden, after your change is in place, you start getting out of memory errors. In another part of the program completely that you didn't touch, but that some intern named Atok touched a month ago to fix a comment. You spend weeks because it had to be his fault, even though he denies touching any running code. The possiblities are endless, the amount of money to be made from cleaning things up is huge, and the impact to society is probably not as bad as people think. Dan. ###### Date: 23 Sep 98 14:40:26 -0800 From: "Charlie Gibbs" Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6uauai$7pe@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> Message-ID: <1495.570T1332T8805005@sky.bus.com> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Lines: 30 X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) NNTP-Posting-Host: news.skybus.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!204.244.4.2!news.westel.com!news.skybus.com!204.244.247.130 In article <6uauai$7pe@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> lingman@wcars05r.nortel.ca (Danny Lingman) writes: >Some edge conditions can cause problems - you expand a structure >from 32K bytes to 32K+2 bytes. Your evil and braindead memory >allocator gives you memory in blocks of 2^n bytes. instead of >getting 32K chunks, you now get 64K chunks. (to make things worse, >the structure may have been padded out to 32K, and you forgot to >alter the padding). All of a sudden, after your change is in place, >you start getting out of memory errors. Even worse, your program was written for MS-DOS or Windows 3.1, and you start getting segment wraparounds as you break the infamous 64K barrier (which for me has been more of a pain than the 640K barrier that everyone talks about). You may have made the length of all of your structures a power of 2, and the alteration breaks this, and suddenly you start reading (or worse, writing), random memory locations when the offset wraps. Of course, you don't see this until you execute a totally unrelated routine that accesses the damaged memory locations. Or maybe it happened in someone else's program and it clobbered a part of DOS, so nobody knows anything is wrong until your program comes in and accesses the damaged area via a system call that the other program never uses. Q: What's the difference between an IBM PC and a boat anchor? A: Segment registers. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: Manzari Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:57:53 -0400 Organization: Arrow Electronics, Inc. Lines: 44 Message-ID: <360952C1.6B4C@arrow.com> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pmanzari.arrow.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03 (Win16; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!psinntp!inetserv.arrow.com!not-for-mail Nick S Bensema wrote: > > For all you guys out there in the trenches, fixing those Y2K > programs... > > The rolling-over of a two-digit year can cause a great deal of problems, > I am aware. And these problems come up in many different ways. For > example, comparisons could come out wrong, ninety years of negative > interest is applied, etc. And the catastrophic consequences of not > fixing this problem have been pointed out on many levels. And I know > that if the analysts and managers are bozos, it will slow everything > down. > . . . . . . . > > Nick Bensema 98-KUPD Red Card #710563 UIN: 2135445 > ~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You've identified several Y2K related problems. Now, here are 10,000 Cobol programs. Step 1) Identify all date related code within those programs Step 2) Fix the programs Step 3) Test all of the programs... Ready... Go... What? you have no documentation to tell you how to test the program?... Try to find someone who does... What?, the person who knew that part of the system retired ten years ago? Oh well ...What's that you say?... There are about 200 programs with no source code?...Some of the load module create dates do not match the latest version of the source code?... I guess that the source code that you have is not the latest production version... Let's hope there are no Y2K issues in those programs...Did you say that several dozen of your 20 year old production source modules no longer compile cleanly because some copybooks have disappeared over the decades? ... Did you remember the 150 VSAM files that use a 6 digit YYMMDD date as part of the key?... No? Well, the deadline isn't going to change. Suddenly the simple solution no longer looks so simple. Here's an example... pull your car out of the garage, polish it, then put it back. Very simple. Now, do the same to 10,000 cars while they're driving on the highway. ###### From: docdwarf@clark.net () Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: 23 Sep 1998 16:49:03 GMT Organization: Clark Internet Services, Inc., Ellicott City, MD USA Lines: 10 Message-ID: <6ub8pv$s5j$1@clarknet.clark.net> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6uauai$7pe@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell.clark.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-dc.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!europa.clark.net!206.55.3.15!news.clark.net!docdwarf In article , wrote: > >All this talk about the problems of converting old software has me >wondering something. Wouldn't it be easier to rewrite the programs than to >modify the existing ones? No, it wouldn't. Next? DD ###### From: "Samael" Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 17:05:40 +0100 Lines: 18 Message-ID: <36091c55.0@122.122.122.1> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6uauai$7pe@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.147.15.218 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.itg.net.uk!122.122.122.1!122.122.122.1 lee1089@kettering.edu wrote in message ... > >All this talk about the problems of converting old software has me >wondering something. Wouldn't it be easier to rewrite the programs than to >modify the existing ones? You know, look at the data files and I/O >from the current program and use that info to design a new program that >used 4 digit dates and a conversion program to convert the data files to 4 >digit dates as well. Unless of course your system is running on 20 year old mainframes and hiring programmers that can use them in to write a few million lines of code would bankrupt the company. Samael ###### From: "Judson McClendon" Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6uauai$7pe@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Lines: 23 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 19:06:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: host-209-214-106-165.bhm.bellsouth.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:06:22 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net!news2.mia.bellsouth.net.POSTED!not-for-mail lee1089@kettering.edu wrote: > >All this talk about the problems of converting old software has me >wondering something. Wouldn't it be easier to rewrite the programs than to >modify the existing ones? You know, look at the data files and I/O >from the current program and use that info to design a new program that >used 4 digit dates and a conversion program to convert the data files to 4 >digit dates as well. If the system needs rewriting anyway, and time permitting, this might be a good idea. But why rewrite an otherwise good system just because it needs the years changed to 4 digits? I and my team of 4 programmers just finished remediating a bit over 1.7 million lines of COBOL at a cost of 8.5 cents/LOC. There is no way those systems could be rewritten for less than five to ten times that amount. Plus there is no conversion, no retraining, etc. -- Judson McClendon judmc123@bellsouth.net (remove numbers) Sun Valley Systems http://personal.bhm.bellsouth.net/~judmc "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." ###### From: "Bart Cotton" Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 19:39:04 -0700 Organization: ELI.NET Leased Newsreader Service Lines: 49 Message-ID: <6ucbiv$o60$1@news.eli.net> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-sac80.cwo.com X-Trace: news.eli.net 906604959 24768 209.63.107.90 (24 Sep 1998 02:42:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@eli.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Sep 1998 02:42:39 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!207.0.56.122!news.eli.net!not-for-path-mail A couple of more - (11) The test procedure has 11 dates that need to pass. (12) If you have a system with two interactive pieces of software, a computer that has a clock, and a remote device which needs to communcate, all 11 dates have to work under all circumstances. (13) After all the 11 dates roll over successfully, or unsuccessfuly, a full power down is required during the roll-over period and then the dates have to be checked again. All I know is these 11 dates were dreamed up by someone in a big Western bank and they have propagated to little companies like Intel, etc. Every vendor has to test and prove that it conforms. The eleven dates range from 1999 to 2004, mainly revolve around leap dates and year rollovers. George R. Gonzalez wrote in message <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net>... > >Nick S Bensema wrote in message <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>... > > >>However, I can't seem to imagine the problem as being that difficult >>to fix in a practical sense. > >The problems are "practical" problems... You have to find: > > >(1) The source code. >(2) A device that will read the source code. >(3) Someone that knows the programming language. >(4) Someone that knows that dialect. >(5) A compiler that will compile that particular dialect of FORTRAN IV >(68) or whatever. >(6) The third-party library that the program calls 864 times. >(7) The deck of compiler and link directives that the program needs. >(8) The test data to validate the program. >(9) Someone to write a new program to generate new test data. >(10) For safety related programs, the govt. inspector to pass judgement. > >--- > >Any one of these can be a real show-stopper, or at least make the job >non-trivial. > > > >duh > ###### From: Bill Lynch Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: 24 Sep 1998 05:14:07 GMT Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 15 Message-ID: <3609D519.B74BF1BE@att.net> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6uauai$7pe@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.68.162.53 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.225!attworldnet!newsadm Judson McClendon wrote: > (snip) > If the system needs rewriting anyway, and time permitting, this might be a > good idea. But why rewrite an otherwise good system just because it needs > the years changed to 4 digits? I and my team of 4 programmers just finished > remediating a bit over 1.7 million lines of COBOL at a cost of 8.5 cents/LOC. > There is no way those systems could be rewritten for less than five to ten > times that amount. Plus there is no conversion, no retraining, etc. Agree completely, plus all the business rules remained intact. New software pretty much guarantees at least some will be broken, there's a lot more testing involved. Bill Lynch ###### From: Greg Berigan Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: 24 Sep 1998 07:12:32 GMT Organization: http://cse.unl.edu/~gberigan/ Lines: 32 Message-ID: <6ucrd0$dqs$1@unlnews.unl.edu> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cse.unl.edu User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980618 (UNIX) (IRIX64/6.2 (IP25)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!netnews.com!newsfeed.enteract.com!newsfeed.inetnebr.com!unlnews.unl.edu!cse.unl.edu!gberigan In alt.folklore.computers, nickb@primenet.com (Nick S Bensema) wrote: > 3. Leap year for interval calculations. I imagine the biggest > consequence of this will be the wrath of predatory lawyers, > heading million-dollar class action suits for all those > five-cent interest discrepancies. : > 6. Leap year for scheduling purposes. > Suppose your program thinks there is a February 29 but your > computer does not, or vice-versa. This is probably an > embedded systems issue, though. I don't think leap years are that much concern with Y2K. Consider this: they didn't think that the software would even be used past 1999; do you think they went to the extra trouble to not have 1900 be a leap year? If it erroneously thinks 1900 is a leap year, it will correctly think 2000 is one as well and won't screw up in this regard until 2100. (No programmer will have immunity to Year 2100 problems.) I have a VCR that is worse off. It only dedicated one nibble to the year, reserving one value for the undefined state. And they didn't use the manufacturing date as the base value. IMO, the Y2K problem is nothing compared to the fallout afterwards where systems will be failing at bizarre times in the 51 years thereafter due to the hodge podge of half-fixes applied now. -- ,=<#)-=# (The War of the Worlds) ,_--//--_, _-~_-(####)-_~-_ "Did you see that Parkins boy's body in the tunnels?" "Just (#>_--'~--~`--_<#) the photos. Worst thing I've ever seen; kid had no face." ###### From: Larry Anderson Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 15:09:13 -0700 Organization: Goldrush World Access, Ltd. Lines: 130 Message-ID: <360AC309.FE2DF7C@goldrush.com> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> Reply-To: foxnhare@goldrush.com NNTP-Posting-Host: jx-086.goldrush.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; 68K) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!diablo.theplanet.net!peer.news-uk.wisper.net!peer.news-uk.wisper.net!nac!newsfeed.yosemite.net!nntp.lsan03.pbi.net!news.pbi.net!news.goldrush.com!usenet Nick S Bensema wrote: > > For all you guys out there in the trenches, fixing those Y2K > programs... > > The rolling-over of a two-digit year can cause a great deal of problems, > I am aware. And these problems come up in many different ways. For > example, comparisons could come out wrong, ninety years of negative > interest is applied, etc. And the catastrophic consequences of not > fixing this problem have been pointed out on many levels. And I know > that if the analysts and managers are bozos, it will slow everything > down. > > However, I can't seem to imagine the problem as being that difficult > to fix in a practical sense. After all, the nature of the problem > is obvious, and the implementation solutions, while varied and > tedious, are easier to fix than those mysterious bugs. You know > the type, the bugs that make the database think all the users are > named Mary Anderson and nobody knows why. > > But, since I haven't worked in the industry yet, I know that my > opinion is stained by naïveté. Therefore, I don't know which of two > possibilities is the case: that the fixes are easy but it's a matter > of tedium and time constraints, or that the fixes have more difficult > solutions than I am led to believe. > > Therefore, I would like to know about the most common manifestations > of these bugs, and whether there are any where the fix is less than > obvious. > > What I'd like to know is, are there any Y2K-related bugs which are > less obvious than what I'm thinking of? > > Here are the elements of a program I know of that will stop working > when dealing with a century barrier. > > 1. Subtraction, for both interval and progressive calculations. > 99 - 97, should be 2, result is 2. Good. > 01 - 99, should be 2, result is 98. Bad. 01-99 may be 225 also (8-bit signed integer) Even worse. [snip] > 3. Leap year for interval calculations. I imagine the biggest > consequence of this will be the wrath of predatory lawyers, > heading million-dollar class action suits for all those > five-cent interest discrepancies. That and scheduling systems being a day off for the remainder of the year. [snip] > > 5. Addition. > 97 + 2 should be 99, result is 99, good. > 99 + 2 should be 01, result is 01, good. > This bug's biggest problem is it lets you think subtraction > works the same way, and otherwise disguises the underlying > problems. again intergers 99+2=101 (again 8-bit signed integer), again bad. > > 6. Leap year for scheduling purposes. > Suppose your program thinks there is a February 29 but your > computer does not, or vice-versa. This is probably an > embedded systems issue, though. Not always, some programs determine the date based on the count of days or seconds from a particular point in time, if you have not included the leap year for 2000 in your math then the day will be off the rest of the year (and possibly the years following) > > OK, that's six I can think of. And they can all be fixed in one > way or another. As evidenced in #4, one could work around a lot > of these in clever ways if one wants to simply survive the new > millenium in lieu of working over the whole database for four-digit > years. Here's number 7: 7. Dummy dates: Let's say company X has a massive accounts database and for staticical/accounting purposes they prefer to keep inactive accounts listed. Those accounts are dated "9/9/99" (a daye that surely will never happen), on September 9, 1999 some businesses are going to have problems... Number 8 8. Global Positioning System uses a week counter in part of it's date calculations starting at a specified date (don't ask me, I'm recalling this from readings) Those 'weeks' run out (255) on August 21, 1999. Though not technically a year 2000 problem, it's one that is upcoming. What it will mean for us I am uncertain. > > I"d like to know if there's some kind of "Top 10 Parts of a Program > That Will Break In Y2K" list, and if not, can someone with more > experience point out what I missed? > Go to Yahoo - Computers & Internet - Year 2000 Problem - There is a very good FAQ listing there. > Or, will I be spending most of my time on concerns other than this? > > Because, right now, I'm not scared. Well, OK, the long hours and > the testing and the time constraints and the imminent collapse of > civilization are all a little intimidating. Once I get hired, > however, I'm not yet sure I'll find anything within the scope of > my job that will stump me. > Alot of these doomsayers are assuming that people will not be involved when all these things happen and that without computers we cannot conduct business. Well some will happen, but there will be many people on-hand to deal with it. I amount it to the inconvinence we experience during localized disasters or power outages. Yes things might look bad for a few days but within a month or two you have forgotten most of it. The biggest problems are going to be in other countries as some places haven't a clue on how to handle their dilemma or fix their imported systems and/or software. > -- > Nick Bensema 98-KUPD Red Card #710563 UIN: 2135445 > ~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > duh -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (300-2400bd) (209) 754-1363 Visit my Commodore 8-Bit web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/commodore.html -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- ###### From: atbowler@thinkage.on.ca (Alan Bowler) Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: 24 Sep 1998 17:39:48 GMT Organization: Thinkage Ltd. Lines: 7 Message-ID: <6ue055$ccb$1@goblin.uunet.ca> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <360952C1.6B4C@arrow.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.102.11.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.172.150.11!news1.bellglobal.com!news.uunet.ca!atbowler In article <360952C1.6B4C@arrow.com> Manzari writes: > >What? you have no documentation to tell you how to test the program?... >Try to find someone who does... What?, the person who knew that part of >the system retired ten years ago? Or was laid off in a round of corporate dumbsizing, ###### From: "William M. Klein" Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year-2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 20:50:44 -0500 Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 27 Message-ID: <6uet0k$lcc@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <360952C1.6B4C@arrow.com> <360AEC65.B1177258@mindspring.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chf-il5-196.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 24 8:52:20 PM CDT 1998 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!ix.netcom.com!news skidmike wrote in message <360AEC65.B1177258@mindspring.com>... >ok, changing the subject a little but bear with me. >from a consumer's p.o.v. >just how much anarchy can we expect on 1/1/00? as a survivalist, i keep >up with other ng's and sites and doom and gloom is foretold. i don't >believe in the gov't storming in a new world order or anything. but >from personal experience with my lenders and the insurance companies >etc. i can tell you that these people seem to have "computer errors" >every time someone farts. so will my phone work? will my lights be on? >will that one last piece of Skylab suddenly fall into my living room? > If anyone knew the answer to that question for sure, it would cut the "noise level" down in several NGs. There are those who are positive that the lights will go out; your paper money will be worthless; and the starving throngs will be breaking down your door within weeks. On the other hand, there are those who think a few minor business will fail; you may get a polite letter from a utility or 2 saying that your monthly bill will be late; and that phone calls to certain places in Africa may be delayed. There is sufficient "proof" on both sides of this issue to make for noisy debate and not much convincing of one side upon the other. ###### From: skidmike Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 21:05:41 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 38 Message-ID: <360AEC65.B1177258@mindspring.com> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <360952C1.6B4C@arrow.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: user-38lc1s9.dialup.mindspring.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 25 Sep 1998 01:06:05 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!firehose.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail ok, changing the subject a little but bear with me. from a consumer's p.o.v. just how much anarchy can we expect on 1/1/00? as a survivalist, i keep up with other ng's and sites and doom and gloom is foretold. i don't believe in the gov't storming in a new world order or anything. but from personal experience with my lenders and the insurance companies etc. i can tell you that these people seem to have "computer errors" every time someone farts. so will my phone work? will my lights be on? will that one last piece of Skylab suddenly fall into my living room? Neil Franklin wrote: > > Manzari writes: > > > > You've identified several Y2K related problems. > > > > Now, here are 10,000 Cobol programs. > > Step 1) Identify all date related code within those programs > > Step 2) Fix the programs > > Step 3) Test all of the programs... > > Those are the _easy_ problems. What about these: > > Now here you have an environment. > Step 1) identify all computers contained within > this includes all embedded ones > Step 2) identify all programs on each one, then fix them > or have them fixed if the maker still exists > Step 3) identify all external dependancies > power, WANs, supplies/personel transport, personel medical/family > then try to fix all that. > > This is where the _real_ fun will begin. > > -- > home: neil@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~neil/ > work: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ > Microsoft is Software Communism, Fight for GNU Freedom! ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: 24 Sep 1998 23:17:46 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 27 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <360952C1.6B4C@arrow.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Manzari writes: > > You've identified several Y2K related problems. > > Now, here are 10,000 Cobol programs. > Step 1) Identify all date related code within those programs > Step 2) Fix the programs > Step 3) Test all of the programs... Those are the _easy_ problems. What about these: Now here you have an environment. Step 1) identify all computers contained within this includes all embedded ones Step 2) identify all programs on each one, then fix them or have them fixed if the maker still exists Step 3) identify all external dependancies power, WANs, supplies/personel transport, personel medical/family then try to fix all that. This is where the _real_ fun will begin. -- home: neil@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~neil/ work: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ Microsoft is Software Communism, Fight for GNU Freedom! ###### From: gorilla@elaine.drink.com (Alan Barclay) Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: 25 Sep 1998 01:43:28 GMT Organization: Gorilla & Hamster Zoo of Toronto Lines: 29 Message-ID: <906687803.272660@elaine.drink.com> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net> <6ua5t5$nao$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: elaine.drink.com NNTP-Posting-Time: 25 Sep 1998 01:43:28 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test60 (5 October 1997) Cache-Post-Path: elaine.drink.com!gorilla@127.0.0.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!News.Toronto.iSTAR.net!news.istar.net!newsfeed.interlog.com!news.interlog.com!elaine.drink.com!not-for-mail In article <6ua5t5$nao$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>, Nick S Bensema wrote: >In article <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net>, >George R. Gonzalez wrote: >> >>The problems are "practical" problems... You have to find: >> >>(1) The source code. >>(2) A device that will read the source code. > >I bet someone has hacked an OCR program that reads punched cards >or paper tape coming in from a fax line. > >I bet someone is even selling such a thing. Optically read formats are easy, if you dont' have the original device, you can make your own. Magnetic formats are much harder to read though, and the effort to build a reader could easily be prohibative, if it's an old dead format that isn't used any more. While 1200 bpi 9 track tapes are still in common use, 7 track tapes are almost impossible to read (I hear the last few remaining 7 track tape heads are reserved for their owners to read their own tapes). Removable disks may require both a physical device to read the data, and some program which has knowledge of the directory/file structure - realativly easy if you're talking about a successful format from a well known manufacturer, but harder if you're talking about a format used for 6 months by a manufacturer who went bankrupt 40 years ago. ###### From: Tracy Nelson Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 14:50:38 -0400 Organization: Ralph Spoilsport Motors Lines: 18 Message-ID: <360BE5FE.2B27141C@fast.net> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net> <6ua5t5$nao$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: maxtnt04-phl-134.fast.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.33 i686) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!Cabal.CESspool!bofh.vszbr.cz!nntp.abs.net!newsfeed.fast.net!news.fast.net!not-for-mail Nick S Bensema wrote: > > In article <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net>, > George R. Gonzalez wrote: > > > >The problems are "practical" problems... You have to find: > > > >(1) The source code. > >(2) A device that will read the source code. Heh, I like the way everyone just skips over #1. Nobody's ever worked in a shop with applications from a defunct vendor for which the source is not available? Nobody works in a shop where the main application's been patched so much that the source is now only a general guideline as to how the program works? Don't get me started about THAT job... Cheers! -- Tracy Nelson ###### From: "Michael F. Coyle" Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 17:39:28 -0400 Lines: 25 Message-ID: <6uhav2$pvc$1@winter.news.erols.com> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net> <6ucbiv$o60$1@news.eli.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209-122-192-200.s200.tnt1.smt.erols.com X-Trace: winter.news.erols.com 906768162 26604 209.122.192.200 (26 Sep 1998 00:02:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.clark.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!master.news.rcn.net!not-for-mail Bart Cotton wrote in message <6ucbiv$o60$1@news.eli.net>... >(11) The test procedure has 11 dates that need to pass. >(12) If you have a system with two interactive pieces of software, a >computer that has a clock, and a remote device which needs to communcate, >all 11 dates have to work under all circumstances. >(13) After all the 11 dates roll over successfully, or unsuccessfuly, a >full power down is required during the roll-over period and then the dates >have to be checked again. > >All I know is these 11 dates were dreamed up by someone in a big Western >bank and they have propagated to little companies like Intel, etc. Every >vendor has to test and prove that it conforms. The eleven dates range from >1999 to 2004, mainly revolve around leap dates and year rollovers. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what the 11 dates are...I've done some Y2K testing and I'd like to see if I missed any "good ones." Thanks. - Michael ###### From: "Bart Cotton" Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 19:22:45 -0700 Organization: ELI.NET Leased Newsreader Service Lines: 56 Message-ID: <6uhjad$4s9$1@news.eli.net> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net> <6ucbiv$o60$1@news.eli.net> <6uhav2$pvc$1@winter.news.erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-sac69.cwo.com X-Trace: news.eli.net 906776717 5001 209.63.107.79 (26 Sep 1998 02:25:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@eli.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Sep 1998 02:25:17 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!207.0.56.122!news.eli.net!not-for-path-mail Michael F. Coyle wrote in message <6uhav2$pvc$1@winter.news.erols.com>... >Bart Cotton wrote in message <6ucbiv$o60$1@news.eli.net>... > >>(11) The test procedure has 11 dates that need to pass. >>(12) If you have a system with two interactive pieces of software, a >>computer that has a clock, and a remote device which needs to communcate, >>all 11 dates have to work under all circumstances. >>(13) After all the 11 dates roll over successfully, or unsuccessfuly, a >>full power down is required during the roll-over period and then the dates >>have to be checked again. >> >>All I know is these 11 dates were dreamed up by someone in a big Western >>bank and they have propagated to little companies like Intel, etc. Every >>vendor has to test and prove that it conforms. The eleven dates range from >>1999 to 2004, mainly revolve around leap dates and year rollovers. > > >Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what the 11 dates are...I've done some >Y2K testing and I'd like to see if I missed any "good ones." 1/1/99 9/9/99 12/31/99 1/1/00 1/2/00 2/1/00 2/28/00 2/29/00 3/1/00 1/1/01 2/29/04 Additional statement says if tests 1-9 fail, go back 10 or 28 years. I have no clue what this objective is. Test document is confidential and proprietary, can't tell you where it came from or where I got the info. This is an example of what this will cost us. I have a proposal in for 80 hours of testing for 10 remote special purpose systems hooked by telephone modem to one host PC running propietary windows based software that is y2k compliant. Dates have to be changed in each remote system, in host software, and in host PC. After rollovers check out OK, then it must be done again with rollover while powered down. Hope they hire me. >Thanks. > >- Michael > > > ###### From: John@kirsta.NOSPAM.demon.co.uk (John Morris) Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Fri, 25 Sep 98 20:06:32 GMT Organization: the end of the universe Message-ID: <906753992anb@kirsta.NOSPAM.demon.co.uk> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net> <6ua5t5$nao$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <360BE5FE.2B27141C@fast.net> Reply-To: John@kirsta.NOSPAM.demon.co.uk X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 906764829 mail2news:29404 mail2news mail2news.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mail2News-Path: news.demon.net!kirsta.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: GM4ANB's version of Snews v1.29 Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail In article <360BE5FE.2B27141C@fast.net> tnelson@fast.net "Tracy Nelson" writes: > > In article <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net>, > > George R. Gonzalez wrote: > > > > > >The problems are "practical" problems... You have to find: > > > > > >(1) The source code. > > >(2) A device that will read the source code. > > Heh, I like the way everyone just skips over #1. Nobody's ever worked > in a shop with applications from a defunct vendor for which the source > is not available? In a previous job we called this "stiffware" - software you've lost the source code for. J. ###### From: Marco S Hyman Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers Date: 25 Sep 1998 20:30:23 -0700 Organization: S.N.A.F.U. (www.snafu.org) Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net> <6ua5t5$nao$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <360BE5FE.2B27141C@fast.net> <906753992anb@kirsta.NOSPAM.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: dumbcat.codewright.com X-Trace: 906780653 25273 marc 206.86.0.12 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news1.best.com!nntp2.ba.best.com!not-for-mail John@kirsta.NOSPAM.demon.co.uk (John Morris) writes: > > > >The problems are "practical" problems... You have to find: > > > > > > > >(1) The source code. > > > >(2) A device that will read the source code. > > > > Heh, I like the way everyone just skips over #1. Nobody's ever worked > > in a shop with applications from a defunct vendor for which the source > > is not available? > > In a previous job we called this "stiffware" - software you've lost > the source code for. What do you call software that never had source code? I mean where someone sat down and typed his code directly into a debugger and then saved the file. // marc ###### From: stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us Newsgroups: comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 00:19:27 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 27 Message-ID: <6uhbue$46n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <360952C1.6B4C@arrow.com> <360AEC65.B1177258@mindspring.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.238.140.203 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Sep 26 00:19:27 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.06 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.34 i586) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x5.dejanews.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 208.238.140.203 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail In article <360AEC65.B1177258@mindspring.com>, skidmike wrote: > ok, changing the subject a little but bear with me. > from a consumer's p.o.v. > just how much anarchy can we expect on 1/1/00? as a survivalist, i keep > up with other ng's and sites and doom and gloom is foretold. i don't > believe in the gov't storming in a new world order or anything. but > from personal experience with my lenders and the insurance companies > etc. i can tell you that these people seem to have "computer errors" > every time someone farts. so will my phone work? will my lights be on? > will that one last piece of Skylab suddenly fall into my living room? > Actually, more economic turmoil may be caused by people frantically pulling their money out of the banking system. The panic may be worse than the problem. All one has to do to precipitate a financial crisis is to convince enough people to immediately draw all their money out of the economy. The only people to benefit from that will be the freeze dried food sellers and the trash disposal services that profit ten years later from being paid to remove and dispose of all that out-of-date food from the forgotten bunkers. And humor writers, of course. And the advertisers, actors, and producers of the "Stupid Things People Do" television programs. (anybody catching my drift?) -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum ###### Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers From: dxmixxer@netdirect.net (Doug Miller) Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Organization: Performance Solutions Consulting References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net> <6ucbiv$o60$1@news.eli.net> <6uhav2$pvc$1@winter.news.erols.com> <6uhjad$4s9$1@news.eli.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Message-ID: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> Lines: 51 Date: Sat, 26 Sep 98 02:37:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.248.213.99 X-Trace: news.netdirect.net 906781254 204.248.213.99 (Fri, 25 Sep 1998 22:40:54 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 22:40:54 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!204.120.164.3!news.netdirect.net!p17-term1-and In article <6uhjad$4s9$1@news.eli.net>, "Bart Cotton" wrote: + +Michael F. Coyle wrote in message <6uhav2$pvc$1@winter.news.erols.com>... +>Bart Cotton wrote in message <6ucbiv$o60$1@news.eli.net>... +> +>>(11) The test procedure has 11 dates that need to pass. +>>(12) If you have a system with two interactive pieces of software, a +>>computer that has a clock, and a remote device which needs to communcate, +>>all 11 dates have to work under all circumstances. +>>(13) After all the 11 dates roll over successfully, or unsuccessfuly, a +>>full power down is required during the roll-over period and then the dates +>>have to be checked again. +>> +>>All I know is these 11 dates were dreamed up by someone in a big Western +>>bank and they have propagated to little companies like Intel, etc. Every +>>vendor has to test and prove that it conforms. The eleven dates range +from +>>1999 to 2004, mainly revolve around leap dates and year rollovers. +> +> +>Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what the 11 dates are...I've done some +>Y2K testing and I'd like to see if I missed any "good ones." + + +1/1/99 Why should this be any more special than 1/1/98 ? +9/9/99 Why would there be a problem with this? 9 Sept 1999 would *not* be stored as 9999, as many people seem to think, but as 990909. I see no reason to believe that anything will break on that day. +12/31/99 +1/1/00 Agree with both of the above... +1/2/00 +2/1/00 ..but disagree with these. What's the rationale for these dates? +2/28/00 +2/29/00 Gotta agree with those -- make sure the computer realizes 28 Feb 2000 is followed by 29 Feb 2000. +3/1/00 Why this? Are you afraid of seeing 30 Feb? If 30 Feb didn't happen in 1996, it's pretty unlikely to occur in 2000, don't you think? +1/1/01 And why this? +2/29/04 Here, too, I wonder if the test is really necessary. Code that correctly recognizes 1996 and 2000 as leap years is highly unlikely to break in 2004. -- dlmiller.at.inetdirect.dot.net ###### From: hnsngr@sirius.com (Ron Hunsinger) Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 03:51:36 -0700 Organization: ErsteSoft Lines: 90 Message-ID: References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6uauai$7pe@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-asok07--130.sirius.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.concentric.net!166.90.101.17.MISMATCH!news-xfer.geo.net!newshub.sirius.com!newsfiler.sirius.com!hnsngr In article , wrote: > All this talk about the problems of converting old software has me > wondering something. Wouldn't it be easier to rewrite the programs than to > modify the existing ones? You know, look at the data files and I/O > from the current program and use that info to design a new program that > used 4 digit dates and a conversion program to convert the data files to 4 > digit dates as well. There were lots of times when I'd be given a program that needed fixing, and I'd decide that it would be faster and easier to just rewrite the program (using the existing source code as authoritative documentation for what it was supposed to do). If I proposed doing that to my boss, the answer invariably was "No. We don't need a new program. We just need you to change this one thing." No amount of explanation by me would convince him that rewriting really would be easier. I learned not to ask, and just do it. That having been said, that isn't the best way to fix the Y2K problem. The reason rewriting the code is sometimes easier is that the logic in the old program is faulty. It's easier to write good logic than to twist bad logic. But Y2K isn't a logic problem. It's a representation problem. It's unlikely that the program is handling dates wrong, only that the dates themselves are wrong. Rewriting the programs is not likely to be faster or easier. Of course, if you're rewriting the programs anyway... When the company that I worked for needed to convert a bunch of programs from one computer to another, we were faced with the problem that the COBOL compilers were incompatible, even though they came from the same vendor. PICTURE S9999 put the sign at one end on one compiler, and at the other end on the other. What one compiler called COMP, the other called CMP-2. (They didn't even agree on how to abbreviate COMPUTATIONAL.) And on and on. We had some tools to automate the rewriting, but the tools weren't perfect, and every program needed to be inspected by hand anyway. In the process, I noticed that every single one of them had some bug in its date routines. (Not the same bug. Some programmers had lifted buggy code from other programs, other programmers wrote new code with new bugs.) So what I did was write some system routines to do date manipulations. Then, I told everybody to just rip out any existing date routines they found, and insert calls on my routines. I managed to pull it off because: I could accept and produce dates in any of the existing formats, so record layouts did not change. Calling my routines was easier than checking the existing code to be sure it was right, so programmers were willing to do it. The database was built from scratch, and I managed to get the designer to standardize on my preferred date format throughout the database. This gave a strong incentive to standardize on that format outside the database as well. My preferred format used 5 digits for a date, rather than 6. I really think this was the major selling point. The mindset back then (1974) was still such that saving a digit was considered a huge win. Oh, and it had one other selling point that I gave up mentioning. I thought it was important, but everyone else laughed at me every time I brought it up. It was century compliant. (Basically, I just counted days from March 19, 1823 (at least, I think that's the zero date), so that day number 99999 would be December 31, 2099. That handled dates across BOTH nearby century boundaries. I had already, at another job, run into problems with birthdates for centenarians. It just doesn't look good to tell a 100-year-old that she's too young to qualify for OAS (Old Age and Survivors) benefits. Or to qualify a 99-year-old for pre-natal care.) I did say in the documentation that the date routines were guaranteed correct across a timespan wide enough for anything we might deal with, including birthdates, contract expiration dates, bond maturity dates, and so on. It was a timespan that began before the Civil War, and might extend beyond Armageddon. Nobody cared back then. All that mattered was that I saved them a digit on every date in the database. And, more importantly, that they were having to rewrite big chunks of almost everything anyway, and so this could just be factored in. Had I proposed modifying all those programs just to solve Y2K, I'd have been laughed out of the room. Now, of course, they're smiling smugly at all the other companies that are having Y2K problems. They had the foresight to fix theirs decades ago! Sometimes, you get to laugh first and last. -Ron Hunsinger ###### From: huge@nospam.demon.co.uk (Hugh Davies) Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: 26 Sep 1998 09:50:13 GMT Organization: Piglet's Pickles and Preserves Message-ID: <6uidcl$klu@axalotl.demon.co.uk> References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> Reply-To: huge@nospam.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: axalotl.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: axalotl.demon.co.uk:158.152.24.143 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 906807724 nnrp-08:1636 NO-IDENT axalotl.demon.co.uk:158.152.24.143 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net x-no-archive: yes Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!axalotl.demon.co.uk!axalotl!usenet In article <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net>, dxmixxer@netdirect.net (Doug Miller) writes: >+1/1/99 >Why should this be any more special than 1/1/98 ? Because many programmers overloaded the meaning of year 99 to mean "invalid data" or somesuch. >+9/9/99 >Why would there be a problem with this? Ditto. >+2/29/04 >Here, too, I wonder if the test is really necessary. Code that correctly >recognizes 1996 and 2000 as leap years is highly unlikely to break in 2004. You're happy to predict the behaviour of broken code? -- "The road to Paradise is through Intercourse." The uk.transport FAQ; http://www.axalotl.demon.co.uk/transport/FAQ.html [Substitute "axalotl" for "nospam" to email me] ###### From: "Mike" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 08:00:47 -0000 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <6uivkv$knh$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net> <6ucbiv$o60$1@news.eli.net> <6uhav2$pvc$1@winter.news.erols.com> <6uhjad$4s9$1@news.eli.net> <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> X-Complaints-To: abuse@globalcenter.net X-Posted-By: @206.165.21.172 (fozzy) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.clark.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail Doug Miller wrote in message <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net>... (and cross posts removed) >+ >+1/1/99 >Why should this be any more special than 1/1/98 ? Ok, how about this scenario. A log file is generated every day that must be archived for one year and then is automatically deleted. Mike ###### From: "Judson McClendon" Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year-2000,alt.folklore.computers References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <360952C1.6B4C@arrow.com> <360AEC65.B1177258@mindspring.com> <6uet0k$lcc@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Lines: 52 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 13:16:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.214.104.51 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 09:16:39 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net!news3.mia.bellsouth.net.POSTED!not-for-mail William M. Klein wrote: > >skidmike wrote: >>ok, changing the subject a little but bear with me. >>from a consumer's p.o.v. >>just how much anarchy can we expect on 1/1/00? as a survivalist, i keep >>up with other ng's and sites and doom and gloom is foretold. i don't >>believe in the gov't storming in a new world order or anything. but >>from personal experience with my lenders and the insurance companies >>etc. i can tell you that these people seem to have "computer errors" >>every time someone farts. so will my phone work? will my lights be on? >>will that one last piece of Skylab suddenly fall into my living room? > >If anyone knew the answer to that question for sure, it would cut the "noise >level" down in several NGs. There are those who are positive that the >lights will go out; your paper money will be worthless; and the starving >throngs will be breaking down your door within weeks. On the other hand, >there are those who think a few minor business will fail; you may get a >polite letter from a utility or 2 saying that your monthly bill will be >late; and that phone calls to certain places in Africa may be delayed. > >There is sufficient "proof" on both sides of this issue to make for noisy >debate and not much convincing of one side upon the other. Bill is absolutely correct. I would add that the difference between the viewpoints is based on how much critical software the proponents expect to remain not compliant on 1/1/2000. This breaks down into three areas, the software we don't have (or frittered away on Y2K planning meetings) time to fix, the software we didn't think to fix, and the software we thought we fixed, but missed something. All of my clients are coming along nicely, except for one, who is still politicking. I have no idea how the phone company is doing, but I would think there are plenty of folks at the power company who can manually override, cut out, or run a bussbar across an inoperative computer controlled switch. And the people who run coal and shipping companies have a pretty good idea who does what every day. I can't see those services completely folding for weeks or months while everybody stands around wringing their hands. If England and Germany could continue operating during the vast destruction of WWII, with the infrastructure itself largely destroyed, I cannot imagine the whole world being unable to at least function. It may not be pretty, but it will work, at least enough to get by. But I'm not going to be in an airplane on 1/1/2000, you can believe that. ;-) -- Judson McClendon judmc123@bellsouth.net (remove numbers) Sun Valley Systems http://personal.bhm.bellsouth.net/~judmc "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." ###### Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers From: dxmixxer@netdirect.net (Doug Miller) Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Organization: Performance Solutions Consulting References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uidcl$klu@axalotl.demon.co.uk> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Message-ID: <6ujdqp$r9c_005@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> Lines: 43 Date: Sat, 26 Sep 98 19:03:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.248.213.88 X-Trace: news.netdirect.net 906840450 204.248.213.88 (Sat, 26 Sep 1998 15:07:30 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 15:07:30 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!204.120.164.3!news.netdirect.net!p19-term2-and In article <6uidcl$klu@axalotl.demon.co.uk>, huge@nospam.demon.co.uk (Hugh Davies) wrote: +In article <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net>, dxmixxer@netdirect.net (Doug Miller) writes: + +>+1/1/99 +>Why should this be any more special than 1/1/98 ? + +Because many programmers overloaded the meaning of year 99 to mean +"invalid data" or somesuch. I agree that many programmers overloaded the meaning of the 6-digit date 999999 to mean invalid data or an infinite date. But year 99? Personally, I've never seen that. Maybe you program like that. I don't. + +>+9/9/99 +>Why would there be a problem with this? + +Ditto. Wrong. In 6-digit form, this would be 990909, not 9999 as many people seem to think. + +>+2/29/04 +>Here, too, I wonder if the test is really necessary. Code that correctly +>recognizes 1996 and 2000 as leap years is highly unlikely to break in 2004. + +You're happy to predict the behaviour of broken code? + I guess you didn't read too carefully. "Code that correctly recognizes 1996 and 2000 as leap years" is not by any definition "broken code." So what is the basis for your assumption that I am attempting to predict the behavior of broken code? My statement made it very clear that I am predicting that correctly functioning code will continue to function correctly. If you disagree, please provide a realistic example of code that correctly recognizes 1996 and 2000 as leap years and fails to recognize 2004 as a leap year. -- dlmiller.at.inetdirect.dot.net ###### From: huge@nospam.demon.co.uk (Hugh Davies) Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: 26 Sep 1998 21:31:41 GMT Organization: Piglet's Pickles and Preserves Message-ID: <6ujmft$lm3@axalotl.demon.co.uk> References: <6ujdqp$r9c_005@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> Reply-To: huge@nospam.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: axalotl.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: axalotl.demon.co.uk:158.152.24.143 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 906864444 nnrp-11:133 NO-IDENT axalotl.demon.co.uk:158.152.24.143 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net x-no-archive: yes Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!axalotl.demon.co.uk!axalotl!usenet In article <6ujdqp$r9c_005@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net>, dxmixxer@netdirect.net (Doug Miller) writes: >I agree that many programmers overloaded the meaning of the 6-digit >date 999999 to mean invalid data or an infinite date. But year 99? >Personally, I've never seen that. Maybe you program like that. I don't. And the simple answer is that you don't know. So it has to be tested. >+Ditto. > >Wrong. In 6-digit form, this would be 990909, not 9999 as many >people seem to think. Sigh. You still don't know. -- "The road to Paradise is through Intercourse." The uk.transport FAQ; http://www.axalotl.demon.co.uk/transport/FAQ.html [Substitute "axalotl" for "nospam" to email me] ###### From: "Donald Tees" Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 22:52:14 -0400 Organization: IGS - Information Gateway Services Lines: 16 Message-ID: <6uk8uh$sqf$1@news.igs.net> References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uidcl$klu@axalotl.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: ttye01.kw.igs.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.clark.net!205.252.116.205!howland.erols.net!torn!nntp.igs.net!news.igs.net!not-for-mail Hugh Davies wrote in message <6uidcl$klu@axalotl.demon.co.uk>... >In article <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net>, dxmixxer@netdirect.net (Doug Miller) writes: >>+1/1/99 >>Why should this be any more special than 1/1/98 ? >Because many programmers overloaded the meaning of year 99 to mean Not to mention the billion or so users that have been using the date 99/12/31 for about a billion years to disable a data check. For example, name of contract(in data file)"this contract never expires", expiry date(in data file:99/12/31). Result, 10,000,000 policies become due. "High values" have a special meaning in data files. ###### Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uidcl$klu@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <6ujdqp$r9c_005@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> Organization: Plethora . Net - More Net, Less Spam! X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test62 (21 February 1998) From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Lines: 50 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 00:22:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.166.146.8 X-Trace: ptah.visi.com 906855762 205.166.146.8 (Sat, 26 Sep 1998 19:22:42 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 19:22:42 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!feeder.qis.net!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail In article <6ujdqp$r9c_005@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net>, Doug Miller wrote: >+>+9/9/99 >+>Why would there be a problem with this? >Wrong. In 6-digit form, this would be 990909, not 9999 as many >people seem to think. True. However, there is a *known* Y2K problem with some in-home dialysis machines which go into self-cleaning mode. My assumption is that the people doing the "enter a date" routine were too lazy to allow for an exception for the "magic dates", so they just said "oh, just use 9/9/99". >I guess you didn't read too carefully. "Code that correctly recognizes >1996 and 2000 as leap years" is not by any definition "broken code." Yes, but it is quite possible that code which is broken might be broken in a way where it gets 1996 and 2000 right, but 2004 wrong. >So what is the basis for your assumption that I am attempting to predict >the behavior of broken code? My statement made it very clear that I am >predicting that correctly functioning code will continue to function >correctly. If you disagree, please provide a realistic example of code >that correctly recognizes 1996 and 2000 as leap years and fails to recognize >2004 as a leap year. When people propose things like if (y % 4) { return 0; } if (y < 2000) { return 1; } if (y == 2000) { return 1; } return 0; don't be too hasty to say "that's unrealistic", real code is often *at least* that stupid. -s -- Copyright 1998, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! Seeking interesting programming projects. Not interested in commuting. Visit my new ISP --- More Net, Less Spam! ###### Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers From: dxmixxer@netdirect.net (Doug Miller) Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Organization: Performance Solutions Consulting References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uidcl$klu@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <6ujdqp$r9c_005@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Message-ID: <6uk8ha$l7s_001@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> Lines: 46 Date: Sun, 27 Sep 98 02:39:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.248.213.58 X-Trace: news.netdirect.net 906867795 204.248.213.58 (Sat, 26 Sep 1998 22:43:15 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 22:43:15 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!204.120.164.3!news.netdirect.net!p19-term2-and In article , seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) wrote: +In article <6ujdqp$r9c_005@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net>, +Doug Miller wrote: [...] +>So what is the basis for your assumption that I am attempting to predict +>the behavior of broken code? My statement made it very clear that I am +>predicting that correctly functioning code will continue to function +>correctly. If you disagree, please provide a realistic example of code +>that correctly recognizes 1996 and 2000 as leap years and fails to recognize +>2004 as a leap year. + +When people propose things like + + if (y % 4) { + return 0; + } + if (y < 2000) { + return 1; + } + if (y == 2000) { + return 1; + } + return 0; + +don't be too hasty to say "that's unrealistic", real code is often *at least* +that stupid. + I don't think it's hasty at all to say that this example is clearly contrived, and obviously completely unrealistic. A naive implementation of leap year, testing only for divisibility by 4 and ignoring century, is much more likely to look something like if (y % 4) { return 1; } else { return 0; } This produces correct results for all years from 1901 to 2099 inclusive. So once again, I ask: can anyone provide a *realistic* example of code which recognizes 1996 and 2000 as leap years, and fails to recognize 2004? -- dlmiller.at.inetdirect.dot.net ###### Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers From: dxmixxer@netdirect.net (Doug Miller) Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Organization: Performance Solutions Consulting References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net> <6ucbiv$o60$1@news.eli.net> <6uhav2$pvc$1@winter.news.erols.com> <6uhjad$4s9$1@news.eli.net> <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <1dg07th.91mootcfzu1eN@qtns01023.singnet.com.sg> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Message-ID: <6uk8nq$l7s_002@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> Lines: 10 Date: Sun, 27 Sep 98 02:43:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.248.213.58 X-Trace: news.netdirect.net 906868003 204.248.213.58 (Sat, 26 Sep 1998 22:46:43 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 22:46:43 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!204.120.164.3!news.netdirect.net!p19-term2-and In article <1dg07th.91mootcfzu1eN@qtns01023.singnet.com.sg>, keithlim@pobox.com (keith lim) wrote: [...] + 9 Sep 1999 all "9"s in fields (with day & month bounds)--flags? I still say this is ridiculous. Does anyone have an actual example of code that will break on 9 Sept 1999? -- dlmiller.at.inetdirect.dot.net ###### Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6ujdqp$r9c_005@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> <6uk8ha$l7s_001@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> Organization: Plethora . Net - More Net, Less Spam! X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test62 (21 February 1998) From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Lines: 92 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 05:08:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.166.146.8 X-Trace: ptah.visi.com 906872911 205.166.146.8 (Sun, 27 Sep 1998 00:08:31 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 00:08:31 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!feeder.qis.net!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail In article <6uk8ha$l7s_001@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net>, Doug Miller wrote: [re:] >+ if (y % 4) { >+ return 0; >+ } >+ if (y < 2000) { >+ return 1; >+ } >+ if (y == 2000) { >+ return 1; >+ } >+ return 0; >+ >+don't be too hasty to say "that's unrealistic", real code is often *at least* >+that stupid. >I don't think it's hasty at all to say that this example is clearly contrived, >and obviously completely unrealistic. Nonsense! We are talking about *OLD CODE*, often code written by *more than one person*, with *poor maintenance*. REVISION 1: "make a function check for a leap year" return !(y%4); REVISION 2: "someone says the leap year code is too tricky" /* leap years are divisible by 4, so a remainder is not a leap year */ if (y % 4) return 0; return 1; REVISION 3: "one of our customers said 2000 isn't a leap year, because it's a century" /* leap years are divisible by 4, so a remainder is not a leap year */ if (y % 4) return 0; /* because centuries aren't leap years */ if (y < 2000) return 1; return 0; REVISION 4: "one of our customers says our leap year code is wrong, 2000 is a leap year". if (y % 4) return 0; /* because centuries aren't leap years */ if (y < 2000) return 1; /* but 2000 is */ if (y == 2000) return 1; return 0; Sure, it's stupid. REAL PROGRAMMERS MAKE STUPID MISTAKES. >A naive implementation of leap year, >testing only for divisibility by 4 and ignoring century, is much more likely >to look something like > if (y % 4) { > return 1; > } > else { > return 0; > } >This produces correct results for all years from 1901 to 2099 inclusive. Yes, it does. But we're *assuming* that we know that, somewhere in the last 20 years, at least one developer did something wrong. I think checking for 2004 is a good idea. >So once again, I ask: can anyone provide a *realistic* example of code which >recognizes 1996 and 2000 as leap years, and fails to recognize 2004? I put it to you that if you don't think that code is realistic, you've never worked with a wide cross section of the sorts of morons who produce code in this reality. Maybe you've just been lucky? -s -- Copyright 1998, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! Seeking interesting programming projects. Not interested in commuting. Visit my new ISP --- More Net, Less Spam! ###### Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <1dg07th.91mootcfzu1eN@qtns01023.singnet.com.sg> <6uk8nq$l7s_002@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> Organization: Plethora . Net - More Net, Less Spam! X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test62 (21 February 1998) From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3MjP1.2443$Ge.7916374@ptah.visi.com> Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 05:09:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.166.146.8 X-Trace: ptah.visi.com 906872959 205.166.146.8 (Sun, 27 Sep 1998 00:09:19 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 00:09:19 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!europa.clark.net!209.98.98.32!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail In article <6uk8nq$l7s_002@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net>, Doug Miller wrote: >In article <1dg07th.91mootcfzu1eN@qtns01023.singnet.com.sg>, > keithlim@pobox.com (keith lim) wrote: >[...] >+ 9 Sep 1999 all "9"s in fields (with day & month bounds)--flags? >I still say this is ridiculous. Does anyone have an actual example >of code that will break on 9 Sept 1999? Yes. There's a home dialysis machine which goes into self-cleaning mode that day. Probably fixed by now, I should hope, but it existed, and it was a *very* nice example of a potentially fatal failure. -s -- Copyright 1998, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! Seeking interesting programming projects. Not interested in commuting. Visit my new ISP --- More Net, Less Spam! ###### From: Bill Lynch Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: 27 Sep 1998 06:49:00 GMT Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 18 Message-ID: <360DDFDD.D5F51DD0@att.net> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net> <6ucbiv$o60$1@news.eli.net> <6uhav2$pvc$1@winter.news.erols.com> <6uhjad$4s9$1@news.eli.net> <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <1dg07th.91mootcfzu1eN@qtns01023.singnet.com.sg> <6uk8nq$l7s_002@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.69.0.81 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.225!attworldnet!newsadm Doug Miller wrote: > (snip) > > I still say this is ridiculous. Does anyone have an actual example > of code that will break on 9 Sept 1999? I had some:-) In my application, Securities Movement & Control, we used 99/09/09 as a maturity date for an open-ended financial instrument, i.e., one that does not mature in a fixed time. These instruments usually carry a floating interest rate and can endure for years. This (using 990909) was changed 2-3 months ago at the tail end of our Y2K mods, so I don't expect it to break anymore. If this had not been updated, our batch system would have considered them matured on 9 Sep 1999 and delivered the securities, which would have been quite a mess. Bill Lynch ###### From: keithlim@pobox.com (keith lim) Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 10:00:41 +0800 Organization: Cthuloops Breakfast Cereal Lines: 156 Message-ID: <1dg07th.91mootcfzu1eN@qtns01023.singnet.com.sg> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net> <6ucbiv$o60$1@news.eli.net> <6uhav2$pvc$1@winter.news.erols.com> <6uhjad$4s9$1@news.eli.net> <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: qtns03409.singnet.com.sg X-Face: "'pdw$\jg~fmNx{[\*l-,HnKMqxE:F+c7i!4s!2B*?RkGZ/2=HEJMImJ:M(u) +3$M+VQS|gCoc`CfY$"~k{4__xd8FdOv X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.3.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.191.82.230!prairie.attcanada.net!attcanada!wn4feed!135.173.83.24!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!198.6.0.40!uunet!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.attap.net!mango.singnet.com.sg!dahlia.singnet.com.sg!mawar.singnet.com.sg!keithlim Doug Miller wrote: >"Bart Cotton" wrote: > +1/1/99 > Why should this be any more special than 1/1/98 ? As the largest two-digit number (in base 10, anyway), "99" may have been used as a flag rather than as a valid year (e.g. the flag meaning something like "last database entry", "no expiry", "unknown year", etc.) Misbehaviors may occur on the first day that the year becomes this number. > +9/9/99 > Why would there be a problem with this? 9 Sept 1999 would *not* be > stored as 9999, as many people seem to think, but as 990909. I see > no reason to believe that anything will break on that day. Similar to previous. All-fields-set-to-9 may have been used as a special flag rather than as a valid date. And there is no reason to assume that "9" automagically gets padded with a leading zero to become "09". Day, month, and year may very reasonably be stored as separate fields, just as they are (e.g. as integers or strings), rather than being combined into a single YYMMDD form, with padding for single-digit months and days. For that matter, if there were no range checks done on the fields (often the case, since it does take some effort to build a lookup table for how many days each month has, not to mention dealing with the leap year cases), then the date "99/99/99" had better be checked too. Add that to the list of magic test dates. > +1/2/00 > +2/1/00 > ..but disagree with these. What's the rationale for these dates? First rollover of the day field *in* (not to) the "00" year. First rollover of the month field in the "00" year. Additional test dates that should be added are 1 Jan and 31 Jan. Dates have to be set to just *before* the rollover; else how to test if the rollover happens correctly? Dates immediately *after* a crucial rollover (e.g. the 2 Jan and 1 Feb dates mentioned) can be tested for persistence, i.e. set them, power down, power up again, and see if they're still there, or have reverted to something else. > +2/28/00 > +2/29/00 > Gotta agree with those -- make sure the computer realizes 28 Feb 2000 > is followed by 29 Feb 2000. Exactly correct for the 28 Feb test date. As for the 29 Feb test date, it is to see if the system rolls over correctly to 1 Mar (and not 30 Feb). See below. > +3/1/00 > Why this? Are you afraid of seeing 30 Feb? If 30 Feb didn't happen in > 1996, it's pretty unlikely to occur in 2000, don't you think? The more important test date should really be 30 Feb. This tests for the somewhat unlikely, yet not all that farfetched, possibility that some programmer misunderstood the rules for leap years, and thought that end-of-century (ending in "00") years had an extra leap day *in addition to* the usual 29 Feb leap day. In other words, testing for the possibility of the programmer coding for divisible by 4 --> leap year --> add extra day --> 29 Feb divisible by 400 --> leap year for end-of-century years --> add *another* extra day --> 30 Feb If you enter 30 Feb as the system date or in the date field(s) of your database, etc., and get no error message or any indication that anything is amiss, you've got a problem--check any leap-year related code. On the other hand, it may just be the result of no bounds checking on days and months (see the bit about "99/99/99" above). This means that there may be all kinds of invalid dates hiding in existing databases (32 Aug, 99 Sep, etc.) 1 Mar is one of the "after-the-rollover" dates that can be tested for persistence (see above). > +1/1/01 > And why this? First rollover of the year field (after the initial "00" rollover). As with the earlier test for the first rollovers of the day and month fields, the more important test date should be 31 Dec '00 (test correctness of actual rollover). 1 Jan '01 can be tested for persistence. > +2/29/04 > Here, too, I wonder if the test is really necessary. Code that correctly > recognizes 1996 and 2000 as leap years is highly unlikely to break in 2004. Leap day of the first leap year after the "00" year--is it recognized as valid. 28 Feb '04 should be added as a test date as well, to check for correct rollover. Agreed, these are not particularly crucial dates either (at the moment; *always* "at the moment"), but they are 'special dates' and special dates are when systems are most likely to have problems. They occur over three years after the basic Y2K problem and all the other special dates mentioned above, so even *testing* for them could be delayed until those earlier dates have been tested (and fixed if necessary). To sum up, here is the now much longer list of test dates: "99/99/99" all "9"s in fields, no day & month bounds--flags? 31 Dec 1998 before rollover to first day of '99 (year "99") 1 Jan 1999 after rollover to first day of '99 (year "99") 9 Sep 1999 all "9"s in fields (with day & month bounds)--flags? 31 Dec 1999 before rollover to '00 (year "00") 1 Jan 2000 after rollover to '00 (year "00"); before first rollover of day in '00 2 Jan 2000 after first rollover of day in '00 31 Jan 2000 before first rollover of month in '00 1 Feb 2000 after first rollover of month in '00 28 Feb 2000 before rollover to leap day in '00 29 Feb 2000 after rollover to leap day in '00; before rollover from leap day in '00 30 Feb 2000 non-existent (invalid) date--is it recognized as invalid? 1 Mar 2000 after (correct) rollover from leap day in '00 31 Dec 2000 before first rollover of year from '00 1 Jan 2001 after first rollover of year from '00 28 Feb 2004 before rollover to first leap day after '00 29 Feb 2004 after (correct) rollover to first leap day after '00 Disclaimer: I am not a Y2K consultant; I do not do any Y2K-related work; I have never done any Y2K-related work; I have no intention of doing any Y2K-related work [*shudder*] -- keith lim keithlim@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~keithlim/ Booting a PC doesn't hurt if you're wearing combat boots. ###### From: huge@nospam.demon.co.uk (Hugh Davies) Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: 27 Sep 1998 10:01:12 GMT Organization: Piglet's Pickles and Preserves Message-ID: <6ul2d8$m97@axalotl.demon.co.uk> References: <6uk8ha$l7s_001@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> Reply-To: huge@nospam.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: axalotl.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: axalotl.demon.co.uk:158.152.24.143 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 906894054 nnrp-03:9873 NO-IDENT axalotl.demon.co.uk:158.152.24.143 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net x-no-archive: yes Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!axalotl.demon.co.uk!axalotl!usenet In article <6uk8ha$l7s_001@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net>, dxmixxer@netdirect.net (Doug Miller) writes: >So once again, I ask: can anyone provide a *realistic* example of code which >recognizes 1996 and 2000 as leap years, and fails to recognize 2004? Like I say, you can't know. And if you can, why aren't you using your psychic powers to win the lottery? -- "The road to Paradise is through Intercourse." The uk.transport FAQ; http://www.axalotl.demon.co.uk/transport/FAQ.html [Substitute "axalotl" for "nospam" to email me] ###### From: AS-DATA@t-online.de (Andreas Strzoda) Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: 28 Sep 1998 06:12:28 GMT Lines: 67 Message-ID: <6un9cc$pha$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uidcl$klu@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <6ujdqp$r9c_005@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> <6uk8ha$l7s_001@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------F55F4922E88B60BF4AF66CB9" X-Sender: 0410672048-0001@t-online.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [de] (Win95; I) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.229.87.25!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!194.25.2.138!newsfeed00.btx.dtag.de!news.btx.dtag.de!not-for-mail --------------F55F4922E88B60BF4AF66CB9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > So once again, I ask: can anyone provide a *realistic* example of code > which > recognizes 1996 and 2000 as leap years, and fails to recognize 2004? > > -- > dlmiller.at.inetdirect.dot.net What about this code I've found in a working program? *--- FEBRUAR ---------------------------------- DT-20. IF WD-TEST-JJ = 80 OR WD-TEST-JJ = 84 OR WD-TEST-JJ = 88 OR WD-TEST-JJ = 92 OR WD-TEST-JJ = 96 GO DT-30 ELSE GO DT-40. --------------F55F4922E88B60BF4AF66CB9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <cut>

So once again, I ask: can anyone provide a *realistic* example of code which
recognizes 1996 and 2000 as leap years, and fails to recognize 2004?

--
dlmiller.at.inetdirect.dot.net

What about this code I've found in a working program?

      *--- FEBRUAR ----------------------------------
       DT-20.
           IF WD-TEST-JJ = 80 OR
              WD-TEST-JJ = 84 OR
              WD-TEST-JJ = 88 OR
              WD-TEST-JJ = 92 OR
              WD-TEST-JJ = 96 GO DT-30
             ELSE
              GO DT-40.
 
  --------------F55F4922E88B60BF4AF66CB9-- ###### From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Followup-To: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Date: 28 Sep 1998 15:26:38 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 15 Message-ID: <6uo9re$d73$1@news3.tufts.edu> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6ucrd0$dqs$1@unlnews.unl.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 906996399 13539 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!isdnet!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael Greg Berigan (gberigan@cse.unl.edu) wrote: : IMO, the Y2K problem is nothing compared to the fallout afterwards where : systems will be failing at bizarre times in the 51 years thereafter due : to the hodge podge of half-fixes applied now. I disagree-- individual systems fail fairly regularly. The infrastructure usually has no problem absorbing the loss or providing the support to fix the problem, though obviously some individual companies may go under. It's what happens when so many things fail all at once that's the big scary part. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com "I wish you luck with a capital F." --Elvis Costello ###### From: "Samael" Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 15:34:55 +0100 Lines: 23 Message-ID: <360f9e90.0@122.122.122.1> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net> <6ucbiv$o60$1@news.eli.net> <6uhav2$pvc$1@winter.news.erols.com> <6uhjad$4s9$1@news.eli.net> <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.126.86.177 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.itg.net.uk!122.122.122.1!122.122.122.1 Doug Miller wrote in message <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net>... >In article <6uhjad$4s9$1@news.eli.net>, "Bart Cotton" wrote: >+9/9/99 >Why would there be a problem with this? 9 Sept 1999 would *not* be >stored as 9999, as many people seem to think, but as 990909. I see >no reason to believe that anything will break on that day. Becasue lots of people took to storing 9/9/99 as a test date meaning 'not known', or 'end of file' or somesuch. >+1/1/01 >And why this? Beginning of file marker Samael ###### From: "Samael" Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 15:38:48 +0100 Lines: 24 Message-ID: <360f9f78.0@122.122.122.1> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net> <6ucbiv$o60$1@news.eli.net> <6uhav2$pvc$1@winter.news.erols.com> <6uhjad$4s9$1@news.eli.net> <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <1dg07th.91mootcfzu1eN@qtns01023.singnet.com.sg> <6uk8nq$l7s_002@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.126.86.177 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!btnet-peer!btnet!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.itg.net.uk!122.122.122.1!122.122.122.1 Doug Miller wrote in message <6uk8nq$l7s_002@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net>... >In article <1dg07th.91mootcfzu1eN@qtns01023.singnet.com.sg>, > keithlim@pobox.com (keith lim) wrote: >[...] >+ 9 Sep 1999 all "9"s in fields (with day & month bounds)--flags? > >I still say this is ridiculous. Does anyone have an actual example >of code that will break on 9 Sept 1999? Yes, a system I wrote back in 84, where the users were told to use 9/9/99 as a 'don't know' entry in the system. And I wrote it. And about a year ago I felt really stupid and went and charged them lots of money to fix it. (Well, not lots, but enough to make them feel stupider than me). Samael ###### From: tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Followup-To: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Date: 28 Sep 1998 17:08:09 GMT Organization: Mechanist Industries Lines: 27 Message-ID: <6uofpp$14b4@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uidcl$klu@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <6ujdqp$r9c_005@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> Reply-To: tph@rmi.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cs0053.eld.ford.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!jobone!dailyplanet.srl.ford.com!eccws1.dearborn.ford.com!longhorn!tph Doug Miller (dxmixxer@netdirect.net) wrote: : +>+1/1/99 : +>Why should this be any more special than 1/1/98 ? : + : +Because many programmers overloaded the meaning of year 99 to mean : +"invalid data" or somesuch. : I agree that many programmers overloaded the meaning of the 6-digit : date 999999 to mean invalid data or an infinite date. But year 99? : Personally, I've never seen that. Maybe you program like that. I don't. I don't either. But that's not really the point. The idea is to catch any limitations in code written 20-30 years ago by any of an innumerable population of programmers with currently-unknown amounts of skill, experience, and common sense. How much are you willing to bet that in the history of computing, nobody has ever done anything which might have a problem on this date? In retrospect it may seem silly, but you're dealing with code written in a different world than the one in which we live, one with different concerns. Hindsight is, of course, 20-20, but that doesn't mean that compromises weren't made, or that these compromises didn't make perfect sense at the time. -- Tom Harrington --------- tph@rmii.com -------- http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph "PS. All spelling and gramatical errors in the above piece of writing were 100% and completely intentional so help me Gaia." -Bob Allisat Cookie's Revenge: ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/tph/cookie/cookies-revenge.sit.hqx ###### Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers From: as999@torfree.net (Adrian Boldan) Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Message-ID: Followup-To: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Organization: Toronto Free-Net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net> <6ucbiv$o60$1@news.eli.net> <6uhav2$pvc$1@winter.news.erols.com> <6uhjad$4s9$1@news.eli.net> <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <1dg07th.91mootcfzu1eN@qtns01023.singnet.com.sg> <6uk8nq$l7s_002@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 17:31:27 GMT Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cyclone.news.idirect.com!island.idirect.com!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!torfree!as999 Doug Miller (dxmixxer@netdirect.net) wrote: : + 9 Sep 1999 all "9"s in fields (with day & month bounds)--flags? : I still say this is ridiculous. Does anyone have an actual example : of code that will break on 9 Sept 1999? It is as ridiculous as using only 2 digits for the year. Have you EVER heard about such ridiculous thing? :-) Programmers are VERY inventive guys :-) -- *** Learn Esperanto - the International Language! *** One language for all | Unu por chiuj, the second for everyone! | la dua por chiu! ###### From: alex*@*rockvax.rockefeller.edu (Alexandre Pechtchanski) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Organization: Rockefeller University Hospital (GCRC), New York Message-ID: <3611cf6e.334841565@Rockyd> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net> <6ua5t5$nao$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <360BE5FE.2B27141C@fast.net> <906753992anb@kirsta.NOSPAM.demon.co.uk> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 18:05:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.85.24.56 X-Trace: rockyd.rockefeller.edu 907005947 129.85.24.56 (Mon, 28 Sep 1998 14:05:47 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 14:05:47 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.nyu.edu!rockyd.rockefeller.edu!not-for-mail On 25 Sep 1998 20:30:23 -0700, Marco S Hyman wrote: [ snip: "stiffware" - software with lost source code ] >What do you call software that never had source code? I mean >where someone sat down and typed his code directly into a >debugger and then saved the file. "Nightmareware"? [ When replying, remove *'s from address ] Alexandre Pechtchanski, Systems Manager, RUH, NY ###### From: jgd@alpha3.csd.uwm.edu (John G Dobnick) Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: 28 Sep 1998 18:57:15 GMT Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee Lines: 20 Message-ID: <6uom6b$k5p$1@uwm.edu> References: <6uhav2$pvc$1@winter.news.erols.com> Reply-To: jgd@alpha3.csd.uwm.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.169.203 Originator: jgd@alpha3.csd.uwm.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!alpha3.csd.uwm.edu!jgd From article <6uhav2$pvc$1@winter.news.erols.com>, by "Michael F. Coyle" : > > > Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what the 11 dates are...I've done some > Y2K testing and I'd like to see if I missed any "good ones." > Check out http://www.unravel.com/ and check the section on "Dangerous Dates" - a short paper that lists some interesting, and perhaps non-obvious, pitfalls. Also, check http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/misctime.htm for a much extended list of "interesting" dates. -- John G Dobnick "Knowing how things work is the basis Information & Media Technologies for appreciation, and is thus a University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee source of civilized delight." jgd@csd.uwm.edu ATTnet: (414) 229-5727 -- William Safire ###### Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers From: dxmixxer@netdirect.net (Doug Miller) Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Organization: Performance Solutions Consulting References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uidcl$klu@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <6ujdqp$r9c_005@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> <6uk8ha$l7s_001@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> <6un9cc$pha$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Message-ID: <6up4vf$ovg_003@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net> Lines: 34 Date: Mon, 28 Sep 98 23:09:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.248.213.75 X-Trace: news.netdirect.net 907027998 204.248.213.75 (Mon, 28 Sep 1998 19:13:18 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 19:13:18 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!isdnet!newsfeed.nyu.edu!news-nyc.telia.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.229.87.25!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!204.120.164.3!news.netdirect.net!p4-term3-and In article <6un9cc$pha$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>, AS-DATA@t-online.de (Andreas Strzoda) wrote: + + + + +> So once again, I ask: can anyone provide a *realistic* example of code +> which +> recognizes 1996 and 2000 as leap years, and fails to recognize 2004? +> +> -- +> dlmiller.at.inetdirect.dot.net + +What about this code I've found in a working program? + + *--- FEBRUAR ---------------------------------- + DT-20. + IF WD-TEST-JJ = 80 OR + WD-TEST-JJ = 84 OR + WD-TEST-JJ = 88 OR + WD-TEST-JJ = 92 OR + WD-TEST-JJ = 96 GO DT-30 + ELSE + GO DT-40. + That's amazing. I guess I've been lucky in my career -- in over two decades, I've only worked with one guy dumb enough to have coded that, and we didn't keep him around long. By the way, though, that code doesn't meet the criteria I asked for: it breaks in 2000. -- dlmiller.at.inetdirect.dot.net ###### Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers From: dxmixxer@netdirect.net (Doug Miller) Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Organization: Performance Solutions Consulting References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net> <6ucbiv$o60$1@news.eli.net> <6uhav2$pvc$1@winter.news.erols.com> <6uhjad$4s9$1@news.eli.net> <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <360f9e90.0@122.122.122.1> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Message-ID: <6up55f$ovg_004@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net> Lines: 31 Date: Mon, 28 Sep 98 23:12:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.248.213.75 X-Trace: news.netdirect.net 907028191 204.248.213.75 (Mon, 28 Sep 1998 19:16:31 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 19:16:31 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!btnet-peer!btnet!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.229.87.25!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!204.120.164.3!news.netdirect.net!p4-term3-and In article <360f9e90.0@122.122.122.1>, "Samael" wrote: + +Doug Miller wrote in message <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net>... +>In article <6uhjad$4s9$1@news.eli.net>, "Bart Cotton" +wrote: +>+9/9/99 +>Why would there be a problem with this? 9 Sept 1999 would *not* be +>stored as 9999, as many people seem to think, but as 990909. I see +>no reason to believe that anything will break on that day. + + +Becasue lots of people took to storing 9/9/99 as a test date meaning 'not +known', or 'end of file' or somesuch. This is exactly what I doubt. I believe that "lots of people" used 99/99/99 as a test date meaning unknown or EOF. I doubt that "lots of people" used 09/09/99 for that purpose. I've seen the former many times, the latter never. + + +>+1/1/01 +>And why this? + + +Beginning of file marker + Doubt that too. Seems pretty useless as a beginning of file marker, compared to the obviously better 00/00/00. But then, maybe years of working with and for some really top-flight programmers has biased my judgement. -- dlmiller.at.inetdirect.dot.net ###### Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers From: dxmixxer@netdirect.net (Doug Miller) Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Organization: Performance Solutions Consulting References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net> <6ucbiv$o60$1@news.eli.net> <6uhav2$pvc$1@winter.news.erols.com> <6uhjad$4s9$1@news.eli.net> <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <1dg07th.91mootcfzu1eN@qtns01023.singnet.com.sg> <6uk8nq$l7s_002@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> <360f9f78.0@122.122.122.1> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Message-ID: <6up58i$ovg_005@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net> Lines: 19 Date: Mon, 28 Sep 98 23:14:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.248.213.75 X-Trace: news.netdirect.net 907028289 204.248.213.75 (Mon, 28 Sep 1998 19:18:09 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 19:18:09 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!204.120.164.3!news.netdirect.net!p4-term3-and In article <360f9f78.0@122.122.122.1>, "Samael" wrote: + +Doug Miller wrote in message <6uk8nq$l7s_002@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net>... +>In article <1dg07th.91mootcfzu1eN@qtns01023.singnet.com.sg>, +> keithlim@pobox.com (keith lim) wrote: +>[...] +>+ 9 Sep 1999 all "9"s in fields (with day & month bounds)--flags? +> +>I still say this is ridiculous. Does anyone have an actual example +>of code that will break on 9 Sept 1999? + + +Yes, a system I wrote back in 84, where the users were told to use 9/9/99 as +a 'don't know' entry in the system. + Really? 09/09/99 and not 99/99/99? -- dlmiller.at.inetdirect.dot.net ###### Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers From: dxmixxer@netdirect.net (Doug Miller) Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Organization: Performance Solutions Consulting References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6uk8nq$l7s_002@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> <360f9f78.0@122.122.122.1> <6up58i$ovg_005@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Message-ID: <6up6r2$ovg_009@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net> Lines: 14 Date: Mon, 28 Sep 98 23:41:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.248.213.75 X-Trace: news.netdirect.net 907029906 204.248.213.75 (Mon, 28 Sep 1998 19:45:06 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 19:45:06 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!204.120.164.3!news.netdirect.net!p4-term3-and In article , seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) wrote: +In article <6up58i$ovg_005@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net>, +Doug Miller wrote: +>Really? 09/09/99 and not 99/99/99? + +Seems plausible; the check for months < 12, and dates < 31, would have +prevented that. + Come on, Peter, do you really think that any programmer dumb enough to use 09/09/99 as a flag is smart enough to check month <= 12 and date <= 31? :-) -- dlmiller.at.inetdirect.dot.net ###### Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6uk8nq$l7s_002@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> <360f9f78.0@122.122.122.1> <6up58i$ovg_005@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net> Organization: Plethora . Net - More Net, Less Spam! X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test62 (21 February 1998) From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Lines: 13 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 00:26:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.166.146.8 X-Trace: ptah.visi.com 907028773 205.166.146.8 (Mon, 28 Sep 1998 19:26:13 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 19:26:13 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!europa.clark.net!209.98.98.32!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail In article <6up58i$ovg_005@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net>, Doug Miller wrote: >Really? 09/09/99 and not 99/99/99? Seems plausible; the check for months < 12, and dates < 31, would have prevented that. -s -- Copyright 1998, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! Seeking interesting programming projects. Not interested in commuting. Visit my new ISP --- More Net, Less Spam! ###### Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6up58i$ovg_005@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net> <6up6r2$ovg_009@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net> Organization: Plethora . Net - More Net, Less Spam! X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test62 (21 February 1998) From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Lines: 30 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 00:50:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.166.146.8 X-Trace: ptah.visi.com 907030216 205.166.146.8 (Mon, 28 Sep 1998 19:50:16 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 19:50:16 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-dc.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!europa.clark.net!209.98.98.32!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail In article <6up6r2$ovg_009@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net>, Doug Miller wrote: >In article , > seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) wrote: >+In article <6up58i$ovg_005@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net>, >+Doug Miller wrote: >+>Really? 09/09/99 and not 99/99/99? >+Seems plausible; the check for months < 12, and dates < 31, would have >+prevented that. >Come on, Peter, do you really think that any programmer dumb enough to use >09/09/99 as a flag is smart enough to check month <= 12 and date <= 31? :-) Yes. Because *that* would have been in a spec. Imagine. It's 1985. You've got a spec for a 'date entry' device, and part of the spec is that it only accepts "valid" dates. Later, someone adds a bag on the side of the date entry - a certain value has special meaning. Perhaps you even mention that "this will be a problem in 14 years". No luck. The spec is the spec. You have to use a "valid" date for the special date. Stupid? Sure. So? No one said the Y2K problem was entirely about *well-designed* software. -s -- Copyright 1998, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! Seeking interesting programming projects. Not interested in commuting. Visit my new ISP --- More Net, Less Spam! ###### Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers From: bdb@GTS.Net (Hello Kittyhawk) Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Message-ID: Organization: G.T.S., Toronto, Ontario X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test66 (4 June 1998) References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6uk8nq$l7s_002@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> <360f9f78.0@122.122.122.1> <6up58i$ovg_005@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net> Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 05:35:39 GMT Lines: 31 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!isdnet!newsfeed.nyu.edu!feed.nntp.acc.ca!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!gts!bdb In article <6up58i$ovg_005@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net>, Doug Miller wrote: |In article <360f9f78.0@122.122.122.1>, "Samael" wrote: |+ |+Doug Miller wrote in message <6uk8nq$l7s_002@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net>... |+>In article <1dg07th.91mootcfzu1eN@qtns01023.singnet.com.sg>, |+> keithlim@pobox.com (keith lim) wrote: |+>[...] |+>+ 9 Sep 1999 all "9"s in fields (with day & month bounds)--flags? |+> |+>I still say this is ridiculous. Does anyone have an actual example |+>of code that will break on 9 Sept 1999? |+ |+ |+Yes, a system I wrote back in 84, where the users were told to use 9/9/99 as |+a 'don't know' entry in the system. |+ |Really? 09/09/99 and not 99/99/99? probably because it was easier to invent something that would pass generic validation routines than to create special-exception wrappers or similar code that would do something special with 99/99/99... -- ,u, Bruce Becker Toronto, Ontario 1 416 699 1868 a /i/ Internet: bdb@gts.org Uucp: ...!gts!bdb `\o\-e "Somehow it seems difficult to distinguish the Ken Starr _< /_ Show from Jerry Springer's efforts" -- Elvis Rodham Presley ###### Date: 29 Sep 98 10:30:00 -0800 From: "Charlie Gibbs" Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6up58i$ovg_005@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net> <6up6r2$ovg_009@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net> Message-ID: <1185.576T36T6303493@sky.bus.com> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Lines: 26 X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) NNTP-Posting-Host: news.skybus.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!newsfeed.ecrc.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!204.244.4.2!news.westel.com!news.skybus.com!204.244.247.112 In article seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) writes: >Imagine. It's 1985. You've got a spec for a 'date entry' device, and >part of the spec is that it only accepts "valid" dates. Later, someone >adds a bag on the side of the date entry - a certain value has special >meaning. Perhaps you even mention that "this will be a problem in 14 >years". No luck. The spec is the spec. You have to use a "valid" date >for the special date. I was lucky. Early in my career I got bitten badly by "magic" values in data fields, and I quickly learned that they are Evil. Ever since, I've ferociously fought any attempt to resort to such tricks. I'm sure I've saved myself (and many others) a lot of grief in the long run. A result of this is that I'm very skeptical about when to declare a field as numeric. IMHO a field should be numeric only if you're doing arithmetic on it. In all other cases (e.g. dates or item numbers), the field should be alphanumeric. Then you have the option of leaving the field blank if no value is present, for instance. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Tue, 29 Sep 98 12:42:49 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 31 Message-ID: <6uqoqs$jdo$1@strato.ultra.net> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net> <6ua5t5$nao$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <360BE5FE.2B27141C@fast.net> <906753992anb@kirsta.NOSPAM.demon.co.uk> <3611cf6e.334841565@Rockyd> NNTP-Posting-Host: d3.dial-13.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 29 Sep 1998 13:54:36 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!209.244.253.199!newsfeed.xcom.net!news.ultranet.com!d3 In article <3611cf6e.334841565@Rockyd>, alex*@*rockvax.rockefeller.edu (Alexandre Pechtchanski) wrote: >On 25 Sep 1998 20:30:23 -0700, Marco S Hyman wrote: > >[ snip: "stiffware" - software with lost source code ] > >>What do you call software that never had source code? I mean >>where someone sat down and typed his code directly into a >>debugger and then saved the file. > >"Nightmareware"? Chuckle. However, our assembler was _started_ by someone toggling in the machine instructions. Think about how one would get started when all there was was a hunk of hardware. Later, the toggling became source code which was built on. We created the executable of our assembler using the assembler and a loader which was also written in the assembler language. I spent a good ten years of my life, designing and implementing a build procedure so that our customers could build software that would have the same checksum as the software we shipped. Talk about a CATCH-22. Does anybody remember checksums? /BAH Sigh! - Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Michael F. Coyle" Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 15:44:12 -0400 Lines: 36 Message-ID: <6urdbf$j2u$1@winter.news.erols.com> References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uidcl$klu@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <6ujdqp$r9c_005@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> <6uk8ha$l7s_001@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> <6un9cc$pha$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <6up4vf$ovg_003@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net> <361114f7.4356701@news.vip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209-122-192-220.s220.tnt1.smt.erols.com X-Trace: winter.news.erols.com 907098287 19550 209.122.192.220 (29 Sep 1998 19:44:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!isdnet!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!master.news.rcn.net!not-for-mail Gene Wirchenko wrote in message <361114f7.4356701@news.vip.net>... >dxmixxer@netdirect.net (Doug Miller) wrote: > >>In article <6un9cc$pha$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>, >> AS-DATA@t-online.de (Andreas Strzoda) wrote: > >[snip] > >>+ *--- FEBRUAR ---------------------------------- >>+ DT-20. >>+ IF WD-TEST-JJ = 80 OR >>+ WD-TEST-JJ = 84 OR >>+ WD-TEST-JJ = 88 OR >>+ WD-TEST-JJ = 92 OR >>+ WD-TEST-JJ = 96 GO DT-30 >>+ ELSE >>+ GO DT-40. >>+ >>That's amazing. I guess I've been lucky in my career -- in over two >>decades, I've only worked with one guy dumb enough to have coded that, >>and we didn't keep him around long. >> >>By the way, though, that code doesn't meet the criteria I asked for: >>it breaks in 2000. > > True, but it's close enough. I think the probable next "version" >would be what you asked for. Yech! What barfacious code! In fact, if they wanted it to work for the next century, I'm afraid I know what 25 lines of code they're most likely to add... - Michael ###### Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers From: as999@torfree.net (Adrian Boldan) Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Message-ID: Followup-To: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Organization: Toronto Free-Net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net> <6ucbiv$o60$1@news.eli.net> <6uhav2$pvc$1@winter.news.erols.com> <6uhjad$4s9$1@news.eli.net> <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <1dg07th.91mootcfzu1eN@qtns01023.singnet.com.sg> Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 17:01:56 GMT Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!torfree!as999 : > +1/1/99 : > Why should this be any more special than 1/1/98 ? : As the largest two-digit number (in base 10, anyway), "99" may have been : used as a flag rather than as a valid year (e.g. the flag meaning : something like "last database entry", "no expiry", "unknown year", etc.) : Misbehaviors may occur on the first day that the year becomes this : number. Here is a reasonable piece of... code (don't ask why the 3 dots :-)): READ NEXT WHILE ws-yy NOT = '99' -- *** Learn Esperanto - the International Language! *** One language for all | Unu por chiuj, the second for everyone! | la dua por chiu! ###### From: spalding@iol.ie (Nick Spalding) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 18:40:36 +0100 Organization: Ireland On-Line Message-ID: <36151aff.78388619@news.iol.ie> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net> <6ua5t5$nao$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <360BE5FE.2B27141C@fast.net> <906753992anb@kirsta.NOSPAM.demon.co.uk> <3611cf6e.334841565@Rockyd> <6uqoqs$jdo$1@strato.ultra.net> Reply-To: spalding@iol.ie NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-0435.dublin.iol.ie Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!195.200.0.51.MISMATCH!newshub.bart.net!ayres.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!iol!iol.ie!not-for-mail jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > However, our assembler was _started_ by someone toggling in the > machine instructions. Think about how one would get started > when all there was was a hunk of hardware. Later, the toggling > became source code which was built on. We created the executable > of our assembler using the assembler and a loader which was also > written in the assembler language. The IBM 1410 which in its day (ca 1962) was a largish fastish commercial mainframe had to have two instructions typed in at the console prior to pressing the start button in order to perform an IPL, there being no Load button - God knows why, its predecessor the 1401 had one and its successor the 7010 had one. If I remember them right they were, to IPL from the card reader: L%1000001R Read a card in load mode into location 1 R00001 Clear I/O interlock and branch to location 1 ###### From: genew@vip.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 19:15:16 GMT Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here Lines: 35 Message-ID: <361114f7.4356701@news.vip.net> References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uidcl$klu@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <6ujdqp$r9c_005@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> <6uk8ha$l7s_001@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> <6un9cc$pha$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <6up4vf$ovg_003@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net> Reply-To: genew@vip.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.209.212.40 X-Trace: 907096369 A01OARAUVD428CCD1C usenet53.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!newsfeed.ecrc.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail dxmixxer@netdirect.net (Doug Miller) wrote: >In article <6un9cc$pha$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>, > AS-DATA@t-online.de (Andreas Strzoda) wrote: [snip] >+ *--- FEBRUAR ---------------------------------- >+ DT-20. >+ IF WD-TEST-JJ = 80 OR >+ WD-TEST-JJ = 84 OR >+ WD-TEST-JJ = 88 OR >+ WD-TEST-JJ = 92 OR >+ WD-TEST-JJ = 96 GO DT-30 >+ ELSE >+ GO DT-40. >+ >That's amazing. I guess I've been lucky in my career -- in over two >decades, I've only worked with one guy dumb enough to have coded that, >and we didn't keep him around long. > >By the way, though, that code doesn't meet the criteria I asked for: >it breaks in 2000. True, but it's close enough. I think the probable next "version" would be what you asked for. Yech! What barfacious code! Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### From: genew@vip.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 19:15:20 GMT Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here Lines: 37 Message-ID: <361115a7.4532778@news.vip.net> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6up58i$ovg_005@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net> <6up6r2$ovg_009@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net> Reply-To: genew@vip.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.209.212.40 X-Trace: 907096373 A01OARAUVD428CCD1C usenet53.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) wrote: >In article <6up6r2$ovg_009@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net>, >Doug Miller wrote: >>In article , >> seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) wrote: >>+In article <6up58i$ovg_005@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net>, >>+Doug Miller wrote: >>+>Really? 09/09/99 and not 99/99/99? >>+Seems plausible; the check for months < 12, and dates < 31, would have >>+prevented that. >>Come on, Peter, do you really think that any programmer dumb enough to use >>09/09/99 as a flag is smart enough to check month <= 12 and date <= 31? :-) > >Yes. Because *that* would have been in a spec. > >Imagine. It's 1985. You've got a spec for a 'date entry' device, and >part of the spec is that it only accepts "valid" dates. Later, someone >adds a bag on the side of the date entry - a certain value has special >meaning. Perhaps you even mention that "this will be a problem in 14 >years". No luck. The spec is the spec. You have to use a "valid" date >for the special date. > >Stupid? Sure. So? No one said the Y2K problem was entirely about >*well-designed* software. Peter, are you going for the USENET Understatement of the Year award? Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### From: genew@vip.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 02:00:43 GMT Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here Lines: 46 Message-ID: <361172da.28355295@news.vip.net> References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uidcl$klu@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <6ujdqp$r9c_005@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> <6uk8ha$l7s_001@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> <6un9cc$pha$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <6up4vf$ovg_003@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net> <361114f7.4356701@news.vip.net> <6urdbf$j2u$1@winter.news.erols.com> Reply-To: genew@vip.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.209.212.87 X-Trace: 907120817 A01OARAUVD457CCD1C usenet87.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail "Michael F. Coyle" wrote: >Gene Wirchenko wrote in message <361114f7.4356701@news.vip.net>... >>dxmixxer@netdirect.net (Doug Miller) wrote: >> >>>In article <6un9cc$pha$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>, >>> AS-DATA@t-online.de (Andreas Strzoda) wrote: >> >>[snip] >> >>>+ *--- FEBRUAR ---------------------------------- >>>+ DT-20. >>>+ IF WD-TEST-JJ = 80 OR >>>+ WD-TEST-JJ = 84 OR >>>+ WD-TEST-JJ = 88 OR >>>+ WD-TEST-JJ = 92 OR >>>+ WD-TEST-JJ = 96 GO DT-30 >>>+ ELSE >>>+ GO DT-40. >>>+ >>>That's amazing. I guess I've been lucky in my career -- in over two >>>decades, I've only worked with one guy dumb enough to have coded that, >>>and we didn't keep him around long. >>> >>>By the way, though, that code doesn't meet the criteria I asked for: >>>it breaks in 2000. >> >> True, but it's close enough. I think the probable next "version" >>would be what you asked for. Yech! What barfacious code! > > >In fact, if they wanted it to work for the next century, I'm afraid I know >what 25 lines of code they're most likely to add... Nope. Only twenty. There are five lines of perfectly good (It's a figure of speech, OK?) code already there that can continue to be used. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### From: Bill Lynch Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: 30 Sep 1998 05:55:40 GMT Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3611C7E6.ED43E1BE@att.net> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6uk8nq$l7s_002@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> <360f9f78.0@122.122.122.1> <6up58i$ovg_005@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net> <6up6r2$ovg_009@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.68.162.33 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-dc.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.225!attworldnet!newsadm Doug Miller wrote: > (snip) > + > +Seems plausible; the check for months < 12, and dates < 31, would have > +prevented that. > + > Come on, Peter, do you really think that any programmer dumb enough to use > 09/09/99 as a flag is smart enough to check month <= 12 and date <= 31? :-) The date routine I replaced last year did exactly that, plus it rejected out of hand any date after 1999, and was hard coded to reject any century as a non-leap year, plus, it was written in Assembler (and poorly, too). I suspect 99/09/09 was used for an open settlement date (I wasn't there when it was dreamed up) for two reasons: it's a valid date (which was a requirement), and it was sufficiently far in the future so no one, programmer or manager, dreamed it would be a problem (ha!). Bill lynch ###### From: Bill Lynch Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: 30 Sep 1998 05:57:55 GMT Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 12 Message-ID: <3611C86D.94560E0E@att.net> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6up58i$ovg_005@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net> <6up6r2$ovg_009@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.68.162.33 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!newsfeed.ecrc.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.225!attworldnet!newsadm Peter Seebach wrote: > (snip) > > Stupid? Sure. So? No one said the Y2K problem was entirely about > *well-designed* software. Peter, the above should be in 3 meter high letters in Times Square, and emblazoned on every piece of software delivered for the next few years (shrink wrapped or otherwise). Bill Lynch ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Wed, 30 Sep 98 11:02:21 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 42 Message-ID: <6ut7an$q77$1@strato.ultra.net> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6up58i$ovg_005@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net> <6up6r2$ovg_009@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net> <1185.576T36T6303493@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: d12.dial-12.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 30 Sep 1998 12:14:15 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!isdnet!newsfeed.nyu.edu!newshub.northeast.verio.net!newsfeed.xcom.net!news.ultranet.com!d12 In article <1185.576T36T6303493@sky.bus.com>, "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: >In article seebs@plethora.net >(Peter Seebach) writes: > >>Imagine. It's 1985. You've got a spec for a 'date entry' device, and >>part of the spec is that it only accepts "valid" dates. Later, someone >>adds a bag on the side of the date entry - a certain value has special >>meaning. Perhaps you even mention that "this will be a problem in 14 >>years". No luck. The spec is the spec. You have to use a "valid" date >>for the special date. > >I was lucky. Early in my career I got bitten badly by "magic" >values in data fields, and I quickly learned that they are Evil. When I took programming classes, the specification of all the computer program problems ended all its data with a "99999..." card. It was a very common 'data is done' indicator (at least where I came from). I agree (after experience) that this is not reality. >Ever since, I've ferociously fought any attempt to resort to >such tricks. I'm sure I've saved myself (and many others) a >lot of grief in the long run. > >A result of this is that I'm very skeptical about when to declare >a field as numeric. IMHO a field should be numeric only if you're >doing arithmetic on it. In all other cases (e.g. dates or item >numbers), the field should be alphanumeric. Then you have the >option of leaving the field blank if no value is present, for >instance. > That wasn't my style of programming. If a piece of data was supposed to be numeric and there wasn't any case where any other character was valid, I defined the field to be numeric and let the "bad data input" path be taken. Leaving spaces for the data was not a safe approach (but for the life of me, I can't recall an example right now). /BAH Sigh! - Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Wed, 30 Sep 98 11:05:01 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 39 Message-ID: <6ut7fo$q77$2@strato.ultra.net> References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uidcl$klu@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <6ujdqp$r9c_005@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> <6uk8ha$l7s_001@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> <6un9cc$pha$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <6up4vf$ovg_003@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net> <361114f7.4356701@news.vip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: d12.dial-12.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 30 Sep 1998 12:16:56 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!isdnet!newsfeed.nyu.edu!feeder.qis.net!newsfeed.xcom.net!news.ultranet.com!d12 [snip unfamiliar newsgroups] In article <361114f7.4356701@news.vip.net>, genew@vip.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: >dxmixxer@netdirect.net (Doug Miller) wrote: > >>In article <6un9cc$pha$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>, >> AS-DATA@t-online.de (Andreas Strzoda) wrote: > >[snip] > >>+ *--- FEBRUAR ---------------------------------- >>+ DT-20. >>+ IF WD-TEST-JJ = 80 OR >>+ WD-TEST-JJ = 84 OR >>+ WD-TEST-JJ = 88 OR >>+ WD-TEST-JJ = 92 OR >>+ WD-TEST-JJ = 96 GO DT-30 >>+ ELSE >>+ GO DT-40. >>+ >>That's amazing. I guess I've been lucky in my career -- in over two >>decades, I've only worked with one guy dumb enough to have coded that, >>and we didn't keep him around long. >> >>By the way, though, that code doesn't meet the criteria I asked for: >>it breaks in 2000. > > True, but it's close enough. I think the probable next "version" >would be what you asked for. Yech! What barfacious code! But nobody's asked him where the clueless programmer went to spread further problems. That was always a consideration in my area. A technique was to encourage the person to work at something that was "safe" for the rest of us. /BAH Sigh! - Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,alt.folklore.computers From: dlparker@dlpinc00.com (Dave Parker) Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Message-ID: Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 11:37:10 GMT Reply-To: dlparker@dlpinc00.com References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net> <6ua5t5$nao$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> Organization: minimal X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] Followup-To: comp.lang.cobol,alt.folklore.computers Lines: 64 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!195.200.0.51.MISMATCH!newshub.bart.net!ayres.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!cyclone.i1.net!uunet!uunet!in4.uu.net!dlpinc00!dlparker Nick S Bensema (nickb@primenet.com) wrote: : In article <6u9uov$hk3$1@shadow.skypoint.net>, : George R. Gonzalez wrote: : > : >The problems are "practical" problems... You have to find: : > : >(1) The source code. : >(2) A device that will read the source code. : I bet someone has hacked an OCR program that reads punched cards : or paper tape coming in from a fax line. : I bet someone is even selling such a thing. Like maybe Xerox?? For at least the last two or three years, I believe. : >(4) Someone that knows that dialect. : A lot of students at DeVry are wondering why we're learning CICS : when only, like, 5% of all on-line systems are using it. Now I : know, I guess. I'm a little late in getting in on all this, but surely someone has documented the relative number of users concentrated on each CICS system as opposed to something on the opposite end of the spectrum, such as a VB/Windows system. Along with that goes the number of transactions processed by each system and the net profit/loss per transaction. : >(5) A compiler that will compile that particular dialect of FORTRAN IV : >(68) or whatever. : I think you skipped a few, there, and number 68 is sort of vague. I think the number 68 here refers to the particular ansi std (I'm not a FORTRAN pgmr), not the number of different dialects. : Though, converting between dialects seems more tedious than hairy. If you know the rules, it usually gets down to tedium at some point. Figuring out the rules is the challenging part. : >(8) The test data to validate the program. : The cool thing would be if the test data found out that the program : was functionally Y2K compliant the whole time... I imagine it's rare : but I can't imagine it never ever happening. I don't think Turing machines are that sophisticated yet. : >(9) Someone to write a new program to generate new test data. : We've gotten through eight items, through feeding punched cards one-by-one : into a fax machine, through tracking down a BOZOL compiler that only your : company bought (hopefully without having to exhume any systems analysts), : through converting BOZOL '63 code into the new, improved BOZOL '65 code, : reverse-engineering and rewriting an often-used library, not to mention : making the Y2K fixes and/or workarounds. If all you need is test data : at this point, you probably have someone in your firm who can generate : it telepathically. Do you have to have a degree or certification in Bozology to do this? -- Dave Parker/DLP, Inc dlparker@dlpinc00.com ###### Message-ID: <36128316.43ED@gazonk.del> Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 15:14:30 -0400 From: "Foobar T. Clown" Reply-To: foobar@gazonk.del Organization: Blurp X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uidcl$klu@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <6ujdqp$r9c_005@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> <6uk8ha$l7s_001@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> <6un9cc$pha$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <6up4vf$ovg_003@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net> <361114f7.4356701@news.vip.net> <6urdbf$j2u$1@winter.news.erols.com> <6utr81$uk2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.133.110.49 X-Trace: 30 Sep 1998 15:17:14 -0500, 198.133.110.49 Lines: 13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!isdnet!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!oleane!nntprelay.mathworks.com!ix.netcom.com!zeus.nomos.com!198.133.110.49 gnohmon8715@my-dejanews.com wrote: > > "You shouldn't use loops because it's slower." Somebody told me that > once, with no smiley. I once worked for a manager who held that belief. He didn't actually order me to unroll any loops, but I *DID* have to present a pretty strong argument before he would let me write a subroutine. I guess his reason was O.K.: Our FORTRAN II system stored the executable code for each subroutine in a separate disk file, and our disk OS allowed only five characters for a file name, and no subdirectories. ###### From: gnohmon8715@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 17:54:08 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 38 Message-ID: <6utr81$uk2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uidcl$klu@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <6ujdqp$r9c_005@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> <6uk8ha$l7s_001@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> <6un9cc$pha$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <6up4vf$ovg_003@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net> <361114f7.4356701@news.vip.net> <6urdbf$j2u$1@winter.news.erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 169.71.1.10 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Sep 30 17:54:08 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Lynx/2.7.1 libwww-FM/2.14 X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x9.dejanews.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 169.71.1.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!newsfeed.ecrc.net!newsfeed.enteract.com!netnews.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail In article <6urdbf$j2u$1@winter.news.erols.com>, "Michael F. Coyle" wrote: > Gene Wirchenko wrote in message <361114f7.4356701@news.vip.net>... > >dxmixxer@netdirect.net (Doug Miller) wrote: > > > >>In article <6un9cc$pha$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>, > >> AS-DATA@t-online.de (Andreas Strzoda) wrote: > > > >[snip] > > > >>+ *--- FEBRUAR ---------------------------------- > >>+ DT-20. > >>+ IF WD-TEST-JJ = 80 OR > >>+ WD-TEST-JJ = 84 OR > >>+ WD-TEST-JJ = 88 OR > >>+ WD-TEST-JJ = 92 OR > >>+ WD-TEST-JJ = 96 GO DT-30 > >>+ ELSE > >>+ GO DT-40. Barfacious? Well, you see, instead of an expensive divide-and-get-remainder operation, it does a nice simple (and cheap) compare. If it fails, it does another one. By the time you start to get dates like 96, the code is running on much faster hardware, so it doesn't matter that it fails 4 compares before passing one. (If you cannot see the invisible smiley, go ahead and flame me. If you believe I don't realize what happens when date equals 77, please point it out.)) "You shouldn't use loops because it's slower." Somebody told me that once, with no smiley. Catastrophic-looking cobol code could be caused by credence in such creeds. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own ###### From: glass2@glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: 30 Sep 1998 23:02:15 GMT Organization: IBM Austin Lines: 34 Message-ID: <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uidcl$klu@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <6ujdqp$r9c_005@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> <6uk8ha$l7s_001@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> <6un9cc$pha$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <6up4vf$ovg_003@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net> <361114f7.4356701@news.vip.net> <6urdbf$j2u$1@winter.news.erols.com> <6utr81$uk2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36128316.43ED@gazonk.del> Reply-To: wa4qal@vnet.ibm.com NNTP-Posting-Host: glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.shore.net!uunet!uunet!in4.uu.net!an02.austin.ibm.com!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!not-for-mail In <36128316.43ED@gazonk.del>, "Foobar T. Clown" writes: >gnohmon8715@my-dejanews.com wrote: >> >> "You shouldn't use loops because it's slower." Somebody told me that >> once, with no smiley. > >I once worked for a manager who held that belief. He didn't actually >order me to unroll any loops, but I *DID* have to present a pretty >strong argument before he would let me write a subroutine. > >I guess his reason was O.K.: Our FORTRAN II system stored the >executable code for each subroutine in a separate disk file, and our >disk OS allowed only five characters for a file name, and no >subdirectories. Actually, loop-unrolling is a known optimization technique. Given the performance implications of a branch on pipelined processors, a significant speed boost may be obtained by unrolling a loop. However, if I found a programmer doing this, I'd be tempted to flog him senseless, unless he had a VERY good reason for doing it. It tends to make maintenance more expensive, and I pity the guy who has to try to understand the code. So, in general, compilers can do it and get away with it when certain levels of optimization are enabled, but programmers should stay away from it, except in very certain specialized cases. Dave P.S. Standard Disclaimer: I work for them, but I don't speak for them. ###### From: nickb@primenet.com (Nick S Bensema) Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: 1 Oct 1998 05:59:36 GMT Organization: PrImE NuT (602)864-1005 <--- <--- <--- Lines: 29 Message-ID: <6uv5o8$e5s$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6up6r2$ovg_009@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net> X-Complaints-To: abuse@globalcenter.net X-Posted-By: nickb@206.165.6.202 (nickb) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test58 (13 May 97) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail In article , Peter Seebach wrote: > >Imagine. It's 1985. You've got a spec for a 'date entry' device, and >part of the spec is that it only accepts "valid" dates. Later, someone >adds a bag on the side of the date entry - a certain value has special >meaning. Perhaps you even mention that "this will be a problem in 14 >years". No luck. The spec is the spec. You have to use a "valid" date >for the special date. I would have picked 11/11/11, which wouldn't become a problem until my 35th birthday, and wouldn't fudge ever if we implemented four-digit years and rendered the 11s as either 0011 or 1111. Saving space is one thing, but I hope that Prince song would have brought enough attention to the fact that we won't be dead in 1999. ...and by the way, I wonder if there are any programs which fudged on August 8, 1988? Or July 7, 1977? And if you can give me a documented example of a date-related fudge revolving around June 6, 1966, I will move to Montana and live in a shack made entirely from Lincoln logs. -- Nick Bensema 98-KUPD Red Card #710563 UIN: 2135445 ~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ duh ###### From: Mathias Koerber Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: 1 Oct 1998 09:19:09 GMT Organization: SingNet Lines: 51 Message-ID: <6uvhed$jjj$3@mawar.singnet.com.sg> References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <360952C1.6B4C@arrow.com> Reply-To: mathias@singnet.com.sg NNTP-Posting-Host: singapura.singnet.com.sg User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971224 (UNIX) (OSF1/V3.2 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.ntr.net!uunet!in4.uu.net!newsfeed.attap.net!mango.singnet.com.sg!dahlia.singnet.com.sg!mawar.singnet.com.sg!not-for-mail In alt.folklore.computers Manzari wrote: : Nick S Bensema wrote: : : You've identified several Y2K related problems. : Now, here are 10,000 Cobol programs. : Step 1) Identify all date related code within those programs : Step 2) Fix the programs : Step 3) Test all of the programs... : Ready... Go... And then go throuh all the stored data in your archives and fix it, so that the newly fixed programs can read the old data when it needs to. How about data you shipped to external parties long time ago, and may need to read again in future? Will they fix the data-tape or expect you to be able to read the old tapes and apply any fixes on the fly? Then make sure that all your interfaces to(easy) and from(hard) external systems are Y2K fixed. Make sure everyone has used the *same* solutions you have, or data can still be corrupted. These things come up often when dealing with banks, insurences, statutory boards, regulators etc. : What? you have no documentation to tell you how to test the program?... : Try to find someone who does... What?, the person who knew that part of : the system retired ten years ago? Oh well ...What's that you say?... : There are about 200 programs with no source code?...Some of the load : module create dates do not match the latest version of the source : code?... I guess that the source code that you have is not the latest : production version... Let's hope there are no Y2K issues in those : programs...Did you say that several dozen of your 20 year old production : source modules no longer compile cleanly because some copybooks have : disappeared over the decades? ... Did you remember the 150 VSAM files : that use a 6 digit YYMMDD date as part of the key?... No? Well, the : deadline isn't going to change. : Suddenly the simple solution no longer looks so simple. Here's an : example... pull your car out of the garage, polish it, then put it : back. Very simple. Now, do the same to 10,000 cars while they're : driving on the highway. -- Mathias Koerber | Tel: +65 / 471 9820 | mathias@staff.singnet.com.sg SingNet NOC | Fax: +65 / 475 3273 | mathias@koerber.org Q'town Tel. Exch. | PGP: Keyid: 768/25E082BD finger mathias@singnet.com.sg 2 Stirling Rd | 1A 8B FC D4 93 F1 9A FC BD 98 A3 1A 0E 73 01 65 S'pore 148943 | Disclaimer: I speak only for myself **** Dial 911! Make a cop come !!! **** ###### Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers From: dlparker@dlpinc00.com (Dave Parker) Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 11:13:52 GMT Reply-To: dlparker@dlpinc00.com References: <6u9o9k$hkn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6up6r2$ovg_009@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net> <6uv5o8$e5s$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> Organization: minimal X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] Followup-To: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.new-york.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!dlpinc00!dlparker Nick S Bensema (nickb@primenet.com) wrote: : In article , : Peter Seebach wrote: : > : >Imagine. It's 1985. You've got a spec for a 'date entry' device, and : >part of the spec is that it only accepts "valid" dates. Later, someone : >adds a bag on the side of the date entry - a certain value has special : >meaning. Perhaps you even mention that "this will be a problem in 14 : >years". No luck. The spec is the spec. You have to use a "valid" date : >for the special date. : I would have picked 11/11/11, which wouldn't become a problem until : my 35th birthday, and wouldn't fudge ever if we implemented four-digit : years and rendered the 11s as either 0011 or 1111. Whereas, MY hindsight being not only 20-20, but also more mercenary, would have sold all my IBM stock and bought M$ stock. (But I'd still use unix/linux - just don't tell anybody..) -- Dave Parker/DLP, Inc dlparker@dlpinc00.com ###### From: gnohmon8715@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 14:45:16 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 25 Message-ID: <6v04hs$iar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uidcl$klu@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <6ujdqp$r9c_005@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> <6uk8ha$l7s_001@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> <6un9cc$pha$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <6up4vf$ovg_003@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net> <361114f7.4356701@news.vip.net> <6urdbf$j2u$1@winter.news.erols.com> <6utr81$uk2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36128316.43ED@gazonk.del> <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 169.71.1.11 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Oct 01 14:45:16 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Lynx/2.7.1 libwww-FM/2.14 X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x11.dejanews.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 169.71.1.11 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail In article <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>, wa4qal@vnet.ibm.com wrote: > However, if I found a programmer doing this, I'd be tempted > to flog him senseless, unless he had a VERY good reason for > doing it. It tends to make maintenance more expensive, and > I pity the guy who has to try to understand the code. So, > in general, compilers can do it and get away with it when > certain levels of optimization are enabled, but programmers > should stay away from it, except in very certain specialized > cases. Well, yes, aren't you supposed to let the optimizer take care of this? I am certain that much more than half of all programming horrors are caused by people who don't understand optimization saying "it's more efficient". I've been fortunate enough to have had the chance to spend months cycle-squeezing and byte-squeezing, on different architectures -- which taught me that most commonly-held ideas on this subject are false, that the "free" optimizer bundled with the system is barely worth its price, and that some techniques are architecture-specific, but that there are a few things you can do that are both portable and readable. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own ###### From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: 1 Oct 1998 17:41:31 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 10 Message-ID: <6v0esb$omv$1@news3.tufts.edu> References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uidcl$klu@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <6ujdqp$r9c_005@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> <6uk8ha$l7s_001@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> <6un9cc$pha$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <6up4vf$ovg_003@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net> <361114f7.4356701@news.vip.net> <6urdbf$j2u$1@winter.news.erols.com> <6utr81$uk2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36128316.43ED@gazonk.del> <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <6v04hs$iar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 907263691 25311 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael Are most a.f.c'ers more on the "gloom-n-doom" or on the "pollyanna" side of Y2Ks final impact? Seems here we have a fine collection of many people intimately involved with the problem, and I'd like to know their takes. Are you guys all shacking up with nothing but your guns, food, and an old PDP-11 for company? Or just bracing for some minor glitch-age? -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com I was feeling sorry for myself / because I had no shoes / but then I met a man who had no feet / And I said, "friend, can I have your shoes?" -FFH ###### From: genew@vip.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 19:05:41 GMT Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here Lines: 52 Message-ID: <3613b7c6.3122092@news.vip.net> References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uidcl$klu@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <6ujdqp$r9c_005@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> <6uk8ha$l7s_001@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> <6un9cc$pha$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <6up4vf$ovg_003@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net> <361114f7.4356701@news.vip.net> <6urdbf$j2u$1@winter.news.erols.com> <6utr81$uk2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36128316.43ED@gazonk.del> <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <6v04hs$iar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Reply-To: genew@vip.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.209.212.40 X-Trace: 907268588 A01OARAUVD428CCD1C usenet57.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!logbridge.uoregon.edu!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail gnohmon8715@my-dejanews.com wrote: >In article <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>, > wa4qal@vnet.ibm.com wrote: >> However, if I found a programmer doing this, I'd be tempted >> to flog him senseless, unless he had a VERY good reason for >> doing it. It tends to make maintenance more expensive, and >> I pity the guy who has to try to understand the code. So, >> in general, compilers can do it and get away with it when >> certain levels of optimization are enabled, but programmers >> should stay away from it, except in very certain specialized >> cases. > >Well, yes, aren't you supposed to let the optimizer take care of this? > >I am certain that much more than half of all programming horrors are caused >by people who don't understand optimization saying "it's more efficient". Sometimes, they assume what was true on another system must be universally true. Sometimes, they assume that because two systems have similarities that the optimizations must be similar, too. I think mostly, they don't check for bottlenecks empirically but merely go by feel and can end up optimizing something that doesn't help. I don't remember who it was, but there was apparently a early case of optimization gone overboard and the system idle loop got optimized (of course, to no useful effect). >I've been fortunate enough to have had the chance to spend months >cycle-squeezing and byte-squeezing, on different architectures -- which >taught me that most commonly-held ideas on this subject are false, that the >"free" optimizer bundled with the system is barely worth its price, and that >some techniques are architecture-specific, but that there are a few things >you can do that are both portable and readable. Steve McConnell in "Code Complete" (Microsoft Press) mentions an optimization cycle he went through with one program. He notes that as the program become more optimized, it became less readable. If you optimize for speed, you've probably deoptimized severely for readability and maintainability. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <36128316.43ED@gazonk.del> <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <6v04hs$iar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Organization: Plethora . Net - More Net, Less Spam! X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test62 (21 February 1998) From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Lines: 20 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 19:55:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.166.146.8 X-Trace: ptah.visi.com 907271701 205.166.146.8 (Thu, 01 Oct 1998 14:55:01 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 14:55:01 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!feeder.qis.net!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail In article <6v04hs$iar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, wrote: >Well, yes, aren't you supposed to let the optimizer take care of this? Now, probably. >I am certain that much more than half of all programming horrors are caused >by people who don't understand optimization saying "it's more efficient". Easily. The famed "Duff's device" was a reaction to a not-good-enough optimizer, in no small part. -s -- Copyright 1998, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! Seeking interesting programming projects. Not interested in commuting. Visit my new ISP --- More Net, Less Spam! ###### From: nickb@primenet.com (Nick S Bensema) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.kibology Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: 1 Oct 1998 21:46:34 GMT Organization: PrImE NuT (602)864-1005 <--- <--- <--- Lines: 26 Message-ID: <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <6v04hs$iar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v0esb$omv$1@news3.tufts.edu> X-Complaints-To: abuse@globalcenter.net X-Posted-By: nickb@206.165.6.202 (nickb) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test58 (13 May 97) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!206.165.3.11!nntp.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail In article <6v0esb$omv$1@news3.tufts.edu>, Kirk Is wrote: >Are most a.f.c'ers more on the "gloom-n-doom" or on the "pollyanna" side >of Y2Ks final impact? Seems here we have a fine collection of many >people intimately involved with the problem, and I'd like to know their >takes. Are you guys all shacking up with nothing but your guns, food, and >an old PDP-11 for company? Or just bracing for some minor glitch-age? Well, regardless of how I feel, I'm going to buy cans and cans and cans of Spaghetti-Os and canned ravioli, as well as some canned peas and canned corn, in 1999, over a long period of time. Because if there's a disaster, I'll have Spaghetti-Os. And if there's no disaster, I'll have Spaghetti-Os. It's a win-win situation. My big Y2K worry is whether I'll be at a party making out with some chyk like everyone else who is human, or whether I'll be at home drinking a punchbowl full of egg nog while my microwave's timer counts down the new year while making popcorn. And if I'm at work doing Y2K testing during the countdown, and I don't have a girlfriend at work, I will find something to impale myself on. -- Nick Bensema 98-KUPD Red Card #710563 UIN: 2135445 ~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ duh ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.kibology From: bang@netcom.com (B. Chas Parisher) Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.3 (UNIX) Sender: bang@netcom3.netcom.com Reply-To: bang@netcom.com Organization: Fairly poor at best References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <6v04hs$iar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v0esb$omv$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 21:58:40 GMT Lines: 11 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!diablo.theplanet.net!news-lond.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!ix.netcom.com!bang Nick S Bensema sez: :) Well, regardless of how I feel, I'm going to buy cans and cans and :) cans of Spaghetti-Os and canned ravioli, as well as some canned :) peas and canned corn, in 1999, over a long period of time. Because :) if there's a disaster, I'll have Spaghetti-Os. And if there's no :) disaster, I'll have Spaghetti-Os. It's a win-win situation. Until you find out that your electric can opener is not Y2K compliant! Oh the HUMANITY! --B. Chas Parisher ###### From: "Samael" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 10:56:47 +0100 Lines: 22 Message-ID: <3614a360.0@122.122.122.1> References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uidcl$klu@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <6ujdqp$r9c_005@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> <6uk8ha$l7s_001@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> <6un9cc$pha$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <6up4vf$ovg_003@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net> <361114f7.4356701@news.vip.net> <6urdbf$j2u$1@winter.news.erols.com> <6utr81$uk2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36128316.43ED@gazonk.del> <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <6v04hs$iar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v0esb$omv$1@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.147.8.5 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.itg.net.uk!122.122.122.1!122.122.122.1 Kirk Is wrote in message <6v0esb$omv$1@news3.tufts.edu>... >Are most a.f.c'ers more on the "gloom-n-doom" or on the "pollyanna" side >of Y2Ks final impact? Seems here we have a fine collection of many >people intimately involved with the problem, and I'd like to know their >takes. Are you guys all shacking up with nothing but your guns, food, and >an old PDP-11 for company? Or just bracing for some minor glitch-age? I don't expect major problems with Y2k from most people. All the major companies have it under control and if a lod of smaler companies go under, it shouldn't cause a massive problem (some small- prepared companies will make a killing). The only problem I am antcipating is from idiots taking money out of the bank to hoard. If everyone hoards money, there will be a major run on the banks. Samael ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Fri, 02 Oct 98 12:22:20 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 47 Message-ID: <6v2kpb$9at$6@strato.ultra.net> References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <6v04hs$iar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v0esb$omv$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: d14.dial-16.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 2 Oct 1998 13:34:35 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.xcom.net!news.ultranet.com!d14 In article <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, nickb@primenet.com (Nick S Bensema) wrote: >In article <6v0esb$omv$1@news3.tufts.edu>, >Kirk Is wrote: >>Are most a.f.c'ers more on the "gloom-n-doom" or on the "pollyanna" side >>of Y2Ks final impact? Seems here we have a fine collection of many >>people intimately involved with the problem, and I'd like to know their >>takes. Are you guys all shacking up with nothing but your guns, food, and >>an old PDP-11 for company? Or just bracing for some minor glitch-age? > >Well, regardless of how I feel, I'm going to buy cans and cans and >cans of Spaghetti-Os and canned ravioli, as well as some canned >peas and canned corn, in 1999, over a long period of time. Because >if there's a disaster, I'll have Spaghetti-Os. And if there's no >disaster, I'll have Spaghetti-Os. It's a win-win situation. > >My big Y2K worry is whether I'll be at a party making out with some >chyk like everyone else who is human, or whether I'll be at home >drinking a punchbowl full of egg nog while my microwave's timer >counts down the new year while making popcorn. And if I'm at work >doing Y2K testing during the countdown, and I don't have a girlfriend >at work, I will find something to impale myself on. > Funny. I thought that stuff worked the other way around. My worry is the effort and time it's going to take to correct the glitches. Think about getting a bank statement towards the end of January that has problems. Verification of corrections will probably take until June. And then there are all those 1099s that appear at the end of January. In the past, it ususally takes 1099 generators months to get something right (and that takes you past 15Apr2000. And then think about the IRS having problems such that their data expects more money from you. That ususally takes years to iron out. I could go on--I've spent a lot of time thinking about data flow and data correction flow in real time. All in all, having a PDP-10 to verify my sanity would be a good thing :-). /BAH Sigh! - Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: hnsngr@sirius.com (Ron Hunsinger) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.kibology Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 13:56:38 -0700 Organization: ErsteSoft Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <6v04hs$iar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v0esb$omv$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-asft01--027.sirius.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newshub.northeast.verio.net!news1.best.com!newshub.sirius.com!newsfiler.sirius.com!hnsngr Nick S Bensema sez: :) Well, regardless of how I feel, I'm going to buy cans and cans and :) cans of Spaghetti-Os and canned ravioli, as well as some canned :) peas and canned corn, in 1999, over a long period of time. Because :) if there's a disaster, I'll have Spaghetti-Os. And if there's no :) disaster, I'll have Spaghetti-Os. It's a win-win situation. A group of us were discussing this last night, and came to the same conclusion: things are going to be a lot worse after 1/1/2000. Why? Because right now a lot of programmers are putting in lots of paid hours to make system Y2K compliant. And the day after it's over, they're all going to be back in the market, looking for honest work. And programmers' wages are going to plummet. Best strategy? Hop on the bandwagon, make lots of money fixing Y2K problems, and use the money to stockpile enough food to tide yourself over the lean years. Spaghetti-Os? Sure, why not? -Ron Hunsinger ###### From: gnohmon8715@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 15:07:07 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <6v2q6r$c2b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uidcl$klu@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <6ujdqp$r9c_005@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> <6uk8ha$l7s_001@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> <6un9cc$pha$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <6up4vf$ovg_003@p4-term3-and.netdirect.net> <361114f7.4356701@news.vip.net> <6urdbf$j2u$1@winter.news.erols.com> <6utr81$uk2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36128316.43ED@gazonk.del> <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <6v04hs$iar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v0esb$omv$1@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 169.71.1.12 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Oct 02 15:07:07 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Lynx/2.7.1 libwww-FM/2.14 X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x7.dejanews.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 169.71.1.12 Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newshub.bart.net!bullseye.news.demon.net!demon!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!newsfeed.cwix.com!204.238.120.130!news-feeds.jump.net!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail In article <6v0esb$omv$1@news3.tufts.edu>, kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) wrote: > Are most a.f.c'ers more on the "gloom-n-doom" or on the "pollyanna" side > of Y2Ks final impact? Seems here we have a fine collection of many > people intimately involved with the problem, and I'd like to know their > takes. Are you guys all shacking up with nothing but your guns, food, and > an old PDP-11 for company? Or just bracing for some minor glitch-age? I think that the biggest problem with y2k will be that, when the world does not come to an end, all the nuts in the cabins in the hills with guns will be so shocked and disappointed that they will run amok. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own ###### From: Alistair J. R. Young Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.kibology Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: 02 Oct 1998 21:57:00 +0000 Organization: Arkane Systems Ltd. Sender: avatar-usenet@esther.arkane.net Message-ID: References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <6v04hs$iar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v0esb$omv$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: arkane.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: arkane.demon.co.uk:158.152.145.208 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 907365911 nnrp-11:7921 NO-IDENT arkane.demon.co.uk:158.152.145.208 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.95) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Disclaimer: The opinions below ARE my company's, because I OWN it! X-PGP-1: id=0x6A7AB399; fprnt=5C 27 43 25 6B 32 4D 6E E7 69 EC 7B 77 46 13 92 X-PGP-2: Mail pgpkey-avatar@arkane.demon.co.uk for my public key. X-License: For copyright and related information, please see: http://www.arkane.demon.co.uk/avatar/postcopy.html X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.4.56/Emacs 19.33 Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!netnews.globalip.ch!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!arkane.demon.co.uk!whos-awake-out-there!bofh.dot!arkane-co-astarial!arkane-net-esther!not-for-mail On 1 Oct 1998 21:46:34 GMT, in message <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, Nick S Bensema (== nickb) praised Shub-Internet thus: > Well, regardless of how I feel, I'm going to buy cans and cans and > cans of Spaghetti-Os and canned ravioli, as well as some canned ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Why did I just spend minutes wondering how Spaghetti-OS compares to Unix? Alistair -- Computational Thaumaturge -- Sysimperator, dominus retis deusque machinarum. e-mail: avatar-sig@arkane.demon.co.uk WWW: http://www.arkane.demon.co.uk/ "Progress (n.) : The process through which Usenet has evolved from smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front of smart terminals." -- obscurity ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.kibology From: bang@netcom.com (B. Chas Parisher) Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.3 (UNIX) Sender: bang@netcom2.netcom.com Reply-To: bang@netcom.com Organization: Fairly poor at best References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <6v04hs$iar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v0esb$omv$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 22:25:33 GMT Lines: 13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!ix.netcom.com!bang Alistair J. R. Young sez: :) Nick S Bensema praised Shub-Internet thus: :) > Well, regardless of how I feel, I'm going to buy cans and cans and :) > cans of Spaghetti-Os and canned ravioli, as well as some canned :) ^^^^^^^^^^^^ :) Why did I just spend minutes wondering how Spaghetti-OS compares to :) Unix? :) Alistair Probably for the same reason I spent minutes coming up with a lame Altair joke. --B. Chas Parisher ###### From: dbd@panacea.phys.utk.edu (David DeLaney) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.kibology Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: 3 Oct 1998 00:33:21 GMT Organization: Formerly U. Tenn. Knoxville/Physics Dept.; presently extremely dis Lines: 21 Message-ID: <6v3rch$gkr$1@gaia.ns.utk.edu> References: <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panacea.phys.utk.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!utk.edu!panacea.phys.utk.edu!dbd bang@netcom.com writes: >Alistair J. R. Young sez: >:) Nick S Bensema praised Shub-Internet thus: >:) > Well, regardless of how I feel, I'm going to buy cans and cans and >:) > cans of Spaghetti-Os and canned ravioli, as well as some canned >:) ^^^^^^^^^^^^ >:) Why did I just spend minutes wondering how Spaghetti-OS compares to >:) Unix? >:) Alistair > >Probably for the same reason I spent minutes coming up with a lame Altair >joke. "You are in a maze of twisty little operating systems, all alike." Dave "and smelling strongly of marinara.Sauce" DeLaney -- \/David DeLaney dbd@panacea.phys.utk.edu "It's not the pot that grows the flower It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable http://panacea.phys.utk.edu/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ/ I WUV you in all CAPS! --K. ###### From: huge@nospam.demon.co.uk (Hugh Davies) Newsgroups: comp.lang.cobol,comp.software.year2000,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: 3 Oct 1998 17:27:01 GMT Organization: Piglet's Pickles and Preserves Message-ID: <6v5mp5$fb@axalotl.demon.co.uk> References: <6uk8nq$l7s_002@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net> Reply-To: huge@nospam.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: axalotl.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: axalotl.demon.co.uk:158.152.24.143 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 907440395 nnrp-10:10536 NO-IDENT axalotl.demon.co.uk:158.152.24.143 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net x-no-archive: yes Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!axalotl.demon.co.uk!axalotl!usenet In article <6uk8nq$l7s_002@p19-term2-and.netdirect.net>, dxmixxer@netdirect.net (Doug Miller) writes: >In article <1dg07th.91mootcfzu1eN@qtns01023.singnet.com.sg>, > keithlim@pobox.com (keith lim) wrote: >[...] >+ 9 Sep 1999 all "9"s in fields (with day & month bounds)--flags? > >I still say this is ridiculous. How many millions of dollars are you prepared to stake that you are correct? How much time are you prepared to spend explaining to the OCC that you did not do the tests because "this is ridiculous"? -- "The road to Paradise is through Intercourse." The uk.transport FAQ; http://www.axalotl.demon.co.uk/transport/FAQ.html [Substitute "axalotl" for "nospam" to email me] ###### From: gaysex@catholic.org (Jahweh Lynch) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.kibology Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 13:27:28 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 15 Message-ID: <361977a8.1819006@news.newsguy.com> References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <6v04hs$iar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v0esb$omv$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-047.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 X-No-Archive: yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news3 Thus spake Nick S Bensema: >My big Y2K worry is whether I'll be at a party making out with some >chyk like everyone else who is human, or whether I'll be at home >drinking a punchbowl full of egg nog while my microwave's timer >counts down the new year while making popcorn. And if I'm at work >doing Y2K testing during the countdown, and I don't have a girlfriend >at work, I will find something to impale myself on. You know, if you did have a girlfriend at work you'd already have something to impale yourself on. -- Jahweh "Dave" Lynch- Catholic Order of Foresters JIGGY WEEK: http://www.thepoint.net/~twgs/jiggy/jiggy.htm ###### From: David Wragg Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.kibology Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Organization: French Toast! Message-ID: References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <6v04hs$iar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v0esb$omv$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Date: 04 Oct 1998 15:13:25 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.119.176.228 X-Complaints-To: news@u-net.net X-Trace: newsr2.u-net.net 907543687 194.119.176.228 (Mon, 05 Oct 1998 00:28:07 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 00:28:07 BST Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!isdnet!news-raspail.gip.net!netnews.globalip.ch!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!peer.news.bb.u-net.net!u-net!newsr2.u-net.net.POSTED!gatsby.u-net.com!not-for-mail hnsngr@sirius.com (Ron Hunsinger) writes: > Why? Because right now a lot of programmers are putting in lots of paid > hours to make system Y2K compliant. And the day after it's over, they're > all going to be back in the market, looking for honest work. And > programmers' wages are going to plummet. That doesn't necessarily follow. The well-paid Y2K work could have caused some older IT professionals (especially those with lots of COBOL experience) to delay their retirement by a couple of years. So when it is over, they go off to enjoy their piles of cash, counteracting the slump you predict. Whether this effect will be significant I have no idea. Dave Wragg ###### From: Andrea Chen Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.kibology Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 18:24:40 -0700 Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <36181FD8.1D49@earthlink.net> References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <6v04hs$iar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v0esb$omv$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 1cust114.tnt31.sfo3.da.uu.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail X-ELN-Date: Sun Oct 4 18:28:12 1998 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-dc.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!207.217.77.43!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail Ron Hunsinger wrote: > Why? Because right now a lot of programmers are putting in lots of paid > hours to make system Y2K compliant. And the day after it's over, they're > all going to be back in the market, looking for honest work. And > programmers' wages are going to plummet. > > Best strategy? Hop on the bandwagon, make lots of money fixing Y2K > problems, and use the money to stockpile enough food to tide yourself over > the lean years. > Sheesh! No way! The BEST STRATEGY is to put lots and lots of little bugs in your code and not document them and since you're the only one who understands your code they have to keep paying you and if you do it right you can ask for a raise. Haven't you ever heard of job security? The really cool thing about this is that it allows me to make a new, never before heard prediction. Society won't collapse because of the Y2K problem, but because of the fixes. -ac- ###### From: Chris Franks Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.kibology Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 18:40:38 -0700 Organization: Hewlett Packard Lines: 5 Message-ID: <36182396.72AC@nospam.sc.hp.com> References: <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6v3rch$gkr$1@gaia.ns.utk.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: scdpc069.sc.hp.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!usc!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!not-for-mail David DeLaney wrote: > > "You are in a maze of twisty little operating systems, all alike." Turn around, a dwarf is getting ready to throw an axe at you! ###### From: genew@vip.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.kibology Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 20:02:14 GMT Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here Lines: 24 Message-ID: <36171e9d.4939837@news.vip.net> References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <6v04hs$iar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v0esb$omv$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> Reply-To: genew@vip.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.209.212.51 X-Trace: 907531301 A01OARAUVD433CCD1C usenet87.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail Alistair J. R. Young wrote: >On 1 Oct 1998 21:46:34 GMT, in message <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, >Nick S Bensema (== nickb) >praised Shub-Internet thus: > >> Well, regardless of how I feel, I'm going to buy cans and cans and >> cans of Spaghetti-Os and canned ravioli, as well as some canned > ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >Why did I just spend minutes wondering how Spaghetti-OS compares to >Unix? YKYHBHTLW? Mind you, if this didn't occur to you, maybe you haven't. OTOH, maybe you really really have. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: 4 Oct 1998 21:22:22 GMT Message-ID: <6v8oue$a7u$9@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-157.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: irk.zetnet.co.uk 907536142 10494 194.247.40.200 (4 Oct 1998 21:22:22 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Oct 1998 21:22:22 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1998-09-30 wa4qal@vnet.ibm.com said: :Given the performance implications of a branch on pipelined :processors, a significant speed boost may be obtained by :unrolling a loop. :However, if I found a programmer doing this, I'd be tempted :to flog him senseless, unless he had a VERY good reason for :doing it. It tends to make maintenance more expensive, and :I pity the guy who has to try to understand the code. So, See http://www.dnai.com/~jfox/color4th.html for a dissenting view from a veteran. (Also for a truly useful programming language in 1k.) -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... ###### From: ftit@engin.umich.edu (Sergej Roytman) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.kibology Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: 5 Oct 1998 02:35:00 GMT Organization: University of Michigan, Ann Arbor Lines: 10 Message-ID: <6v9b8k$nao@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> References: <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6v3rch$gkr$1@gaia.ns.utk.edu> <36182396.72AC@nospam.sc.hp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: jahn.ummu.umich.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!news.cc.ukans.edu!srvr1.engin.umich.edu!ftit In article <36182396.72AC@nospam.sc.hp.com>, Chris Franks wrote: >David DeLaney wrote: >> "You are in a maze of twisty little operating systems, all alike." > Turn around, a dwarf is getting ready to throw an axe at you! Wasn't that a nasty little knife? -- Sergej Roytman ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Mon, 05 Oct 98 11:57:25 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 33 Message-ID: <6vagff$bni$7@strato.ultra.net> References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <6v04hs$iar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v0esb$omv$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <36181FD8.1D49@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: d8.dial-12.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 5 Oct 1998 13:10:07 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed.ecrc.net!masternews.telia.net!news-nyc.telia.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!news.ultranet.com!d8 In article <36181FD8.1D49@earthlink.net>, Andrea Chen wrote: >Ron Hunsinger wrote: >> Why? Because right now a lot of programmers are putting in lots of paid >> hours to make system Y2K compliant. And the day after it's over, they're >> all going to be back in the market, looking for honest work. And >> programmers' wages are going to plummet. >> >> Best strategy? Hop on the bandwagon, make lots of money fixing Y2K >> problems, and use the money to stockpile enough food to tide yourself over >> the lean years. >> > > Sheesh! No way! The BEST STRATEGY is to put lots and lots of little >bugs in your code and not document them and since you're the only one >who understands your code they have to keep paying you and if you do it >right you can ask for a raise. Haven't you ever heard of job security? But how boring. > > The really cool thing about this is that it allows me to make a new, >never before heard prediction. Society won't collapse because of the >Y2K problem, but because of the fixes. Ermm....no....because of testing the fixes. /BAH Sigh! - Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: asuter@leland.Stanford.EDU (Alex Suter) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.kibology Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: 5 Oct 1998 12:40:22 -0700 Organization: The Island of Duh Lines: 16 Message-ID: <6vb7b6$87c@elaine20.Stanford.EDU> References: <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <36182396.72AC@nospam.sc.hp.com> <6v9b8k$nao@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <3618A78D.4512@fdhoekstra.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: elaine20.stanford.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.stanford.edu!nntp.stanford.edu!not-for-mail Thus spake info@fdhoekstra.nl: >The first one threw an axe, which missed, cursed, and ran away. >You then picked up this axe (despite it's having run away) to >throw at the other dwarves, who threw knives. > >Yes, I am a sorry pedant. You pick up a sorry pedant. You feel infused with an amazing attention to detail and trivia! A spelling flame is here! A cascade is growing to your north. -- Lupus Yonderboy http://world.std.com/~asuter/ "Death by cheese most malevolent." ###### From: info@fdhoekstra.nl Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.kibology Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 13:03:41 +0200 Organization: Drukkerij Uitgeverij F. D. Hoekstra bv Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3618A78D.4512@fdhoekstra.nl> References: <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6v3rch$gkr$1@gaia.ns.utk.edu> <36182396.72AC@nospam.sc.hp.com> <6v9b8k$nao@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: zwl1-p78.worldonline.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news.worldonline.nl!not-for-mail Sergej Roytman wrote: > > In article <36182396.72AC@nospam.sc.hp.com>, > Chris Franks wrote: > >David DeLaney wrote: > >> "You are in a maze of twisty little operating systems, all alike." > > Turn around, a dwarf is getting ready to throw an axe at you! > > Wasn't that a nasty little knife? The first one threw an axe, which missed, cursed, and ran away. You then picked up this axe (despite it's having run away) to throw at the other dwarves, who threw knives. Yes, I am a sorry pedant. Richard ###### From: "Samael" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.kibology Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 13:17:41 +0100 Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3618b8e5.0@122.122.122.1> References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <6v04hs$iar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v0esb$omv$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.147.8.88 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.itg.net.uk!122.122.122.1!122.122.122.1 David Wragg wrote in message ... >hnsngr@sirius.com (Ron Hunsinger) writes: >> Why? Because right now a lot of programmers are putting in lots of paid >> hours to make system Y2K compliant. And the day after it's over, they're >> all going to be back in the market, looking for honest work. And >> programmers' wages are going to plummet. > >That doesn't necessarily follow. The well-paid Y2K work could have >caused some older IT professionals (especially those with lots of >COBOL experience) to delay their retirement by a couple of years. So >when it is over, they go off to enjoy their piles of cash, >counteracting the slump you predict. Whether this effect will be >significant I have no idea. Not a problem over here in the UK, because as soon as we finish the Y2K work, we have the EURO work to get done (European Monetary Union and all that) and _then_ we have all the jobs thath vae been put off for the last 3 years while we did the Y2K work. samael ###### From: "Nathan Sharfi" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.kibology Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 23:38:21 -0700 Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <6vcduv$f49$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <6v04hs$iar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v0esb$omv$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <3618b8e5.0@122.122.122.1> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool042-max4.ontario-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 X-ELN-Date: Mon Oct 5 23:39:27 1998 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!btnet-peer!btnet!newsfeed.corridex.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!la-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail Not really--a lot of Americans have to deal with europeans and their money. We'll be busy, albeit not as much. >Not a problem over here in the UK, because as soon as we finish the Y2K >work, we have the EURO work to get done (European Monetary Union and all >that) and _then_ we have all the jobs thath vae been put off for the last 3 >years while we did the Y2K work. > >samael > > ###### From: Mike Swaim Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.kibology References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <6v04hs$iar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v0esb$omv$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980226 (UNIX) (FreeBSD/2.2.6-RELEASE (i386)) Lines: 16 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 01:24:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.127.0.130 X-Trace: news.giganews.com 907637045 209.127.0.130 (Mon, 05 Oct 1998 20:24:05 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 20:24:05 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!netnews.com!news-b.ais.net!ais.net!nntp.giganews.com!news.giganews.com!gemini.c-com.net!swaim In alt.folklore.computers Ron Hunsinger wrote: : A group of us were discussing this last night, and came to the same : conclusion: things are going to be a lot worse after 1/1/2000. : Why? Because right now a lot of programmers are putting in lots of paid : hours to make system Y2K compliant. And the day after it's over, they're : all going to be back in the market, looking for honest work. And : programmers' wages are going to plummet. But fewer young'uns are entering the market, so the supply's already shrinking. I suspect that things will stay steady for the first few years of the next century, and then things'll pick up. -- Mike Swaim, Avatar of Chaos: Disclaimer:I sometimes lie. Home: swaim@c-com.net Alum: swaim@rice.edu Quote: "Boingie"^4 Y,W&D ###### From: Chris Franks Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.kibology Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 12:48:21 -0700 Organization: Hewlett Packard Lines: 6 Message-ID: <361D1705.69DF@nospam.sc.hp.com> References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <6v04hs$iar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v0esb$omv$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6vined$ls05@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <6vit8u$33p$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: scdpc069.sc.hp.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!128.174.5.49!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!not-for-mail C Lamb wrote: > : poorly-thought-out GOTO statements. Since I now use my bicycle to GOTO work, can you please tell me how to make the bicycle Y2K compliant? I don't want it to be stranded on the Lawrence Expressway! ###### From: tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.kibology Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.kibology Date: 8 Oct 1998 15:58:05 GMT Organization: Mechanist Industries Lines: 20 Message-ID: <6vined$ls05@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <6v04hs$iar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v0esb$omv$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> Reply-To: tph@rmi.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cs0053.eld.ford.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!btnet-peer!btnet!news1.ispnews.com!news2.acs.oakland.edu!jobone!dailyplanet.srl.ford.com!eccws1.dearborn.ford.com!longhorn!tph Alistair J. R. Young (avatar-usenet@arkane.demon.co.uk) wrote: : On 1 Oct 1998 21:46:34 GMT, in message <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, : Nick S Bensema (== nickb) : praised Shub-Internet thus: : > Well, regardless of how I feel, I'm going to buy cans and cans and : > cans of Spaghetti-Os and canned ravioli, as well as some canned : ^^^^^^^^^^^^ : Why did I just spend minutes wondering how Spaghetti-OS compares to : Unix? Rumor has it that the Spaghetti-OS source code relies on a whole lot of poorly-thought-out GOTO statements. -- Tom Harrington --------- tph@rmii.com -------- http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph "Rock 'n' Roll, as a sound, is what grandparents listen to." -Fraser Clark, Mondo 2000 Cookie's Revenge: ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/tph/cookie/cookies-revenge.sit.hqx ###### From: danielt@thranx.dgii.com (Daniel Taylor) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.kibology Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <6v04hs$iar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v0esb$omv$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6vined$ls05@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.3 (UNIX) Lines: 24 Date: 8 Oct 98 16:41:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.86.0.206 X-Trace: ptah.visi.com 907864918 199.86.0.206 (Thu, 08 Oct 1998 11:41:58 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 11:41:58 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub.northeast.verio.net!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!samba!danielt On 8 Oct 1998 15:58:05 GMT, Tom Harrington scribed: >Alistair J. R. Young (avatar-usenet@arkane.demon.co.uk) wrote: >: On 1 Oct 1998 21:46:34 GMT, in message <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, >: Nick S Bensema (== nickb) >: praised Shub-Internet thus: > >: > Well, regardless of how I feel, I'm going to buy cans and cans and >: > cans of Spaghetti-Os and canned ravioli, as well as some canned >: ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >: Why did I just spend minutes wondering how Spaghetti-OS compares to >: Unix? > >Rumor has it that the Spaghetti-OS source code relies on a whole lot of >poorly-thought-out GOTO statements. > Well, it is a multi-threaded(noodled?) environment built on a portable base with object-oriented components(meatballs). All this in a convenient and attractive package. -- Daniel Taylor Unix is a Linux-like operating system. ###### From: cs1cl@stoat.shef.ac.uk (C Lamb) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.kibology Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: 8 Oct 1998 17:37:34 GMT Organization: Sheffield University, UK Lines: 28 Message-ID: <6vit8u$33p$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <6v04hs$iar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v0esb$omv$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6vined$ls05@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> Reply-To: cs1cl@stoat.shef.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: stoat.shef.ac.uk X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!server5.netnews.ja.net!news.shef.ac.uk!stoat!cs1cl Tom Harrington (tph@longhorn.uucp) wrote: : Alistair J. R. Young (avatar-usenet@arkane.demon.co.uk) wrote: : : On 1 Oct 1998 21:46:34 GMT, in message <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, : : Nick S Bensema (== nickb) : : praised Shub-Internet thus: : : > Well, regardless of how I feel, I'm going to buy cans and cans and : : > cans of Spaghetti-Os and canned ravioli, as well as some canned : : ^^^^^^^^^^^^ : : Why did I just spend minutes wondering how Spaghetti-OS compares to : : Unix? : Rumor has it that the Spaghetti-OS source code relies on a whole lot of : poorly-thought-out GOTO statements. Nooooooooooooooo! No comparisons between Spaghetti-OS and Hamilton95 purlease! C : -- : Tom Harrington --------- tph@rmii.com -------- http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph : "Rock 'n' Roll, as a sound, is what grandparents listen to." : -Fraser Clark, Mondo 2000 : Cookie's Revenge: ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/tph/cookie/cookies-revenge.sit.hqx ###### From: scottdav@eng.nospam.COM (Scott Davidson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: 8 Oct 1998 17:46:57 GMT Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc. Lines: 36 Message-ID: <6vitqh$hh1$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> References: Reply-To: scottdav@Eng.nospam.COM NNTP-Posting-Host: voyager2.eng.sun.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!btnet-peer!btnet!newsfeed.corridex.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!venus.sun.com!sunnews1.Eng.Sun.COM!engnews1.eng.sun.com!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!not-for-mail In article danielt@thranx.dgii.com, danielt@thranx.dgii.com (Daniel Taylor) writes: >On 8 Oct 1998 15:58:05 GMT, Tom Harrington scribed: >>Alistair J. R. Young (avatar-usenet@arkane.demon.co.uk) wrote: >>: On 1 Oct 1998 21:46:34 GMT, in message <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, >>: Nick S Bensema (== nickb) >>: praised Shub-Internet thus: >> >>: > Well, regardless of how I feel, I'm going to buy cans and cans and >>: > cans of Spaghetti-Os and canned ravioli, as well as some canned >>: ^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >>: Why did I just spend minutes wondering how Spaghetti-OS compares to >>: Unix? >> >>Rumor has it that the Spaghetti-OS source code relies on a whole lot of >>poorly-thought-out GOTO statements. >> >Well, it is a multi-threaded(noodled?) environment built on >a portable base with object-oriented components(meatballs). > >All this in a convenient and attractive package. > >-- >Daniel Taylor >Unix is a Linux-like operating system. Is it true that this system runs best on Olivetti machines? (Old AT&T 6300s?) We used to call them the pasta processor. Scott Replace nospam with that big light in the sky to email me. ###### From: twillis@sound.net (Theresa Willis) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.kibology Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 19:55:17 GMT Message-ID: <3622188d.23677132@news.sound.net> References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <6v04hs$iar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v0esb$omv$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6vined$ls05@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.153.80.183 X-Trace: 8 Oct 1998 14:42:24 -0600, 209.153.80.183 Lines: 27 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-dc.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!205.242.199.8!news.sound.net!209.153.80.183 danielt@thranx.dgii.com (Daniel Taylor) wrote: >On 8 Oct 1998 15:58:05 GMT, Tom Harrington scribed: >>Alistair J. R. Young (avatar-usenet@arkane.demon.co.uk) wrote: >>: On 1 Oct 1998 21:46:34 GMT, in message <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, >>: Nick S Bensema (== nickb) >>: praised Shub-Internet thus: >> >>: > Well, regardless of how I feel, I'm going to buy cans and cans and >>: > cans of Spaghetti-Os and canned ravioli, as well as some canned >>: ^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >>: Why did I just spend minutes wondering how Spaghetti-OS compares to >>: Unix? >> >>Rumor has it that the Spaghetti-OS source code relies on a whole lot of >>poorly-thought-out GOTO statements. >> >Well, it is a multi-threaded(noodled?) environment built on >a portable base with object-oriented components(meatballs). > >All this in a convenient and attractive package. Attractive? I thought it was just a microwaveable paper cup. --Terri ###### From: Stefan Kapusniak Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.kibology Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: 08 Oct 1998 22:42:33 +0100 Organization: Queen-Architect Court Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <6v04hs$iar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v0esb$omv$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6vined$ls05@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <6vit8u$33p$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <361D1705.69DF@nospam.sc.hp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ler-003.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: irk.zetnet.co.uk 907883117 23812 194.247.40.12 (8 Oct 1998 21:45:17 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Oct 1998 21:45:17 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!ayres.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!queen-architect.court!nobody Chris Franks writes: > Since I now use my bicycle to GOTO work, can you please tell me how to > make the bicycle Y2K compliant? You must ask your Y2K what his demands are. You must tell your Y2K that though _want_ to give in to those reasonable demands but you are being pressured by the Governor to storm the building as its an election year...AND NO, NO, [you say] DON'T EAT THE BICYCLES...tell your Y2K that you're doing your best to keep the freakin' fascist in that state house of his back and he'll get all the Cobol programmers he wants as long as all the bicycles he is holding hostage are released COMPLETELY UNHARMED. Meanwhile in orbit above the planetary surface, a crack team of bio-enhanced imperial marines are strapping into their battle armour in preparation for the assault. Little do they know that have been betrayed by their civilian political masters and are being delivered into a trap of the rebellion from which many, who lack the foresight to be the charismatic yet sensitive commanding officer, will not emerge alive. The story of the survivors resulting defection to the rebellion and bloody space-battles the fight on the way to final victory over those who betrayed them, will be described in a trilogy consisting of five eminently disposable volumes on which the short authors name is rendered in larger lettering than the longer title. However due to the failure of their assault, your bicycle still remains held in the grip of Y2K non-compliance amid its fellow hostages of PDP-8's, symbolics Lisp machines, and Sinclair C5's. Do you not here it crying out your name...? It crying out for you to satisfy your Y2Ks quite reasonable demands...? > I don't want it to be stranded on the > Lawrence Expressway! If you just get us the airplane, and the wanger, and the ICL One Per Desk, we won't have to remove another wheel from your bicycle Mr. Franks. CONDUCT ALL FURTHER NEGOTIATIONS IN ESPERANTO AND SMALLTALK-76 OR SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES. -- Kapusniak, Stefan m ###### From: hnsngr@sirius.com (Ron Hunsinger) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.kibology Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 03:04:30 -0700 Organization: ErsteSoft Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <6v04hs$iar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v0esb$omv$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6vined$ls05@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <6vit8u$33p$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <361D1705.69DF@nospam.sc.hp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-asok01--012.sirius.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.slip.net!news-xfer.geo.net!newshub.sirius.com!newsfiler.sirius.com!hnsngr In article <361D1705.69DF@nospam.sc.hp.com>, Chris Franks wrote: > Since I now use my bicycle to GOTO work, can you please tell me how to > make the bicycle Y2K compliant? I don't want it to be stranded on the > Lawrence Expressway! You just have to learn to start saying G00T00. That is, four wheels instead of two. You'd better start now -- you have under 14 months to get everyone accustomed to the new pronunciation. -Ron Hunsinger ###### From: Chris Franks Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.kibology Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 09:52:49 -0700 Organization: Hewlett Packard Lines: 9 Message-ID: <361E3F61.6694@nospam.sc.hp.com> References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <6v04hs$iar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v0esb$omv$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6vined$ls05@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <6vit8u$33p$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <361D1705.69DF@nospam.sc.hp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: scdpc069.sc.hp.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!212.63.192.161.MISMATCH!newshub.bart.net!news.tele2.nl!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!not-for-mail Ron Hunsinger wrote: > > You just have to learn to start saying G00T00. That is, four wheels > instead of two. That's a great idea, Ron. I can put dually wheels on my bicycle, and then I will be allowed to ride it thru San Jose! I can even put a badge on it that says "Chebby",and race Jesus in his slammed Mustang. Thanks for the tip, and please help keep Stefan's stormtroopers out in orbit where they belong. ###### From: info@fdhoekstra.nl Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 14:08:00 +0200 Organization: Drukkerij Uitgeverij F. D. Hoekstra bv Lines: 21 Message-ID: <361DFCA0.2D1E@fdhoekstra.nl> References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <6v04hs$iar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v0esb$omv$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6vined$ls05@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: zwl1-p97.worldonline.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news.worldonline.nl!not-for-mail Tom Harrington wrote: > > Alistair J. R. Young (avatar-usenet@arkane.demon.co.uk) wrote: > : On 1 Oct 1998 21:46:34 GMT, in message <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, > : Nick S Bensema (== nickb) > : praised Shub-Internet thus: > > : > Well, regardless of how I feel, I'm going to buy cans and cans and > : > cans of Spaghetti-Os and canned ravioli, as well as some canned > : ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > : Why did I just spend minutes wondering how Spaghetti-OS compares to > : Unix? > > Rumor has it that the Spaghetti-OS source code relies on a whole lot of > poorly-thought-out GOTO statements. Ah, so *that*'s why dieticians keep telling us too much pasta is "considered harmful". Richard ###### From: tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.kibology Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.kibology Date: 12 Oct 1998 16:34:15 GMT Organization: Mechanist Industries Lines: 16 Message-ID: <6vtb27$6bi4@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <6v04hs$iar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v0esb$omv$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6vined$ls05@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <6vit8u$33p$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> Reply-To: tph@rmi.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cs0053.eld.ford.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!212.63.192.161.MISMATCH!newshub.bart.net!news.tele2.nl!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!141.211.144.13!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!jobone!dailyplanet.srl.ford.com!eccws1.dearborn.ford.com!longhorn!tph C Lamb (cs1cl@stoat.shef.ac.uk) wrote: : Tom Harrington (tph@longhorn.uucp) wrote: : : Rumor has it that the Spaghetti-OS source code relies on a whole lot of : : poorly-thought-out GOTO statements. : Nooooooooooooooo! No comparisons between Spaghetti-OS and Hamilton95 : purlease! When is Hamilton98 due out, anyway? And what of Hamilton NT 5.0? -- Tom Harrington --------- tph@rmii.com -------- http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph "Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster." -Nietzsche, "Beyond Good and Evil" Cookie's Revenge: ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/tph/cookie/cookies-revenge.sit.hqx ###### From: Alistair J. R. Young Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.kibology Subject: Re: Parts of a program that break in Y2K? Date: 12 Oct 1998 17:40:26 +0000 Organization: Arkane Systems Ltd. Sender: avatar-usenet@esther.arkane.net Message-ID: References: <6uhk17$u14_002@p17-term1-and.netdirect.net> <6uud9n$18mu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <6v04hs$iar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v0esb$omv$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6v0t7q$r1e$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6vined$ls05@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <6vit8u$33p$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6vtb27$6bi4@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: arkane.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: arkane.demon.co.uk:158.152.145.208 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 908218777 nnrp-11:28884 NO-IDENT arkane.demon.co.uk:158.152.145.208 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.95) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Disclaimer: The opinions below ARE my company's, because I OWN it! X-PGP-1: id=0x6A7AB399; fprnt=5C 27 43 25 6B 32 4D 6E E7 69 EC 7B 77 46 13 92 X-PGP-2: Mail pgpkey-avatar@arkane.demon.co.uk for my public key. X-License: For copyright and related information, please see: http://www.arkane.demon.co.uk/avatar/postcopy.html X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.4.56/Emacs 19.33 Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.xcom.net!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!arkane.demon.co.uk!whos-awake-out-there!bofh.dot!arkane-co-astarial!arkane-net-esther!not-for-mail On 12 Oct 1998 16:34:15 GMT, in message <6vtb27$6bi4@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com>, Tom Harrington (== tph) praised Shub-Internet thus: > C Lamb (cs1cl@stoat.shef.ac.uk) wrote: > : Nooooooooooooooo! No comparisons between Spaghetti-OS and Hamilton95 > : purlease! > When is Hamilton98 due out, anyway? And what of Hamilton NT 5.0? Killfiles on standby... -- Computational Thaumaturge -- Sysimperator, dominus retis deusque machinarum. e-mail: avatar-sig@arkane.demon.co.uk WWW: http://www.arkane.demon.co.uk/ "#define SIGHEIL 40 /* fascist process has taken control of cpu */" -- blh@texas.net (Brett Hawn)