From: "Paul Grayson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 17:13:29 +0100 Lines: 21 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.50.82.193 Message-ID: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!insnet.net!backpost.satin.net!news.saqnet.co.uk!195.50.82.193 Background:- I have a customer who has a Banyan server that someone has managed to created a filename of the name a:log.txt. This causes the backup system to barf. On attempting to delete the file using rm (with of without escaping the colon) I get a message such as the following:- # rm -f a:log.txt rm a:log.txt not removed Not a typewriter Banyan servers run a modified version of AT&T's PC UNIX system. There is only one shell available, which appears to be some early Borne shell. I can delete the file, but only by using fsdb. I wonder if anyone knows what the origin of this error is? Does it come from early implementations of Unix? Is its derivation as convoluted as "Values of beta will give rise to dom!"? Will hooking a Selectric to the serial port allow me to delete the file? :-> ###### From: "Paul Grayson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:12:32 +0100 Lines: 23 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.50.82.193 Message-ID: <3607d6e1.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!insnet.net!backpost.satin.net!news.saqnet.co.uk!195.50.82.193 ># rm -f a:log.txt >rm a:log.txt not removed >Not a typewriter > Further investigation by means of running strings on rm shows the error is returned by rm. I have deduced by means of the other error messages in this dump that the call that rm is making is being returned decimal 25 which translates as ENOTTY. Obviously the error string comes from the days of teletypes, and the source hasn't been updated. But why should rm treat the colon as meaning a TTY device? Was this an old convention from years ago? And is there any other currently shipping executable around which still generate errors of this nature. I am certain that the current release of VINES (8.5) uses the same set of basic utilities. I will have to snarf a PDP emulator and try some of the UNIX images to see if those versions of rm contain the same errors. ###### Message-ID: <3607E8C3.7A387243@danet.com> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:13:23 -0400 From: "J. Benz" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607d6e1.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: pc-135.danet.com Lines: 59 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub.northeast.verio.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!news.nauticom.net!pc-135.danet.com Paul Grayson wrote: > ># rm -f a:log.txt > >rm a:log.txt not removed > >Not a typewriter > > > > Further investigation by means of running strings on rm shows the error is > returned by rm. I have deduced by means of the other error messages in this > dump that the call that rm is making is being returned decimal 25 which > translates as ENOTTY. Obviously the error string comes from the days of > teletypes, and the source hasn't been updated. > > But why should rm treat the colon as meaning a TTY device? Was this an old > convention from years ago? > > And is there any other currently shipping executable around which still > generate errors of this nature. I am certain that the current release of > VINES (8.5) uses the same set of basic utilities. I will have to snarf a PDP > emulator and try some of the UNIX images to see if those versions of rm > contain the same errors. In my 20 or so years as a Unix developer, I've seen this message many times. I don't know what it means, except that it is often returned when dealing with file names that contain special characters (unprintable) (probably why you need fsdb to remove the file - next time, try quoting the name). The error is still there in the most modern Unix versions - on our DEC Alpha version 4.0 OSF, the following line appears in /usr/include/errno.h #define ENOTTY 25 /* Not a typewriter */ This machine is only a few months old. The colon has nothing to do with it - the file name a:log.txt is a perfectly legal Unix filename and rm doesn't bat an eyelash while sending it to the bit bucket. You can prove this to yourself by creating a file with that name and then removing it - both the file creation and the rm command happen without a squeak. It's easy to create names with invisible characters too. Any C program can create any file name out of the entire ASCII character set, excepting shell metas and other obvious ones like '|' or '/'. You can actually create a name that is completely invisible. I'll bet your file name was actually something like 'a:log.txt^M', which in a mixed DROS and Unix environment, is very easy to do (note the ^M, which is a carriage return) - hmm, there's a hint. Carriage return is a typewriter thing. Could be 'not a typewriter' is complaining about 'carriage return' - something that has no meaning on a terminal screen. So here's some detective work for you. A DROS program wrote a file containing this file name a:log.txt. A Unix program read the file, and used the string from the file, including the trailing ^M (standard in DROS, but not in Unix), as a file name. Unix obediently created the file 'a:log.txt^M', which you, being a human and unable to read invisible text, saw as 'a:log.txt'. And when you said 'rm a:log.txt', the shell correctly interpreted the CR as the end of the name and fed it to 'rm' as a command line parm. 'rm' in your Banyan implementation saw the extra char, decided it didn't like it, and spit at you. ###### From: Tony Sweeney Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 16:17:03 -0700 Organization: Informix. Lines: 31 Message-ID: <36082FEE.78EF6A70@informix.com> References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607d6e1.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607E8C3.7A387243@danet.com> <6u8tte$fvi$1@xs2.xs4all.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: golem.oak.informix.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!ix.netcom.com!arl-news-svc-3.compuserve.com!news.informix.com!not-for-mail Jan van den Broek wrote: > > The error is still > >there in the most modern Unix versions - on our DEC Alpha version 4.0 OSF, the > >following line appears in /usr/include/errno.h > > >#define ENOTTY 25 /* Not a typewriter */ > > >This machine is only a few months old. > > Same in FreeBSD 2.2.5. It's likely that there are programs still running > which are using this error. Removing it from newer version would cause > this programs to be broken. > Solaris is altogether more prosaic: golem% cat foo.c # include # include int main(int argc, char *argv[]) { printf("%s: %s\n", argv[0], strerror(ENOTTY) ); } golem% cc foo.c golem% a.out a.out: Inappropriate ioctl for device golem% ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jwbirdsa@picarefy.picarefy.com (James W. Birdsall) Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Message-ID: <1998Sep22.184525.7971@picarefy.picarefy.com> Organization: Green Tiger Software References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607d6e1.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607E8C3.7A387243@danet.com> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:45:25 GMT Lines: 41 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!surfnet.nl!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!199.181.164.14!news.seanet.com!nntp.picarefy.com!picarefy!jwbirdsa In article <3607E8C3.7A387243@danet.com> "J. Benz" writes: > > >Paul Grayson wrote: > >> ># rm -f a:log.txt >> >rm a:log.txt not removed >> >Not a typewriter >> > >> >> Further investigation by means of running strings on rm shows the error is >> returned by rm. I have deduced by means of the other error messages in this >> dump that the call that rm is making is being returned decimal 25 which >> translates as ENOTTY. Obviously the error string comes from the days of >> teletypes, and the source hasn't been updated. > >In my 20 or so years as a Unix developer, I've seen this message many times. I >don't know what it means, except that it is often returned when dealing with >file names that contain special characters (unprintable) (probably why you need >fsdb to remove the file - next time, try quoting the name). The error is still >there in the most modern Unix versions - on our DEC Alpha version 4.0 OSF, the >following line appears in /usr/include/errno.h > >#define ENOTTY 25 /* Not a typewriter */ This has been discussed before. IIRC, the consensus is that 1) ENOTTY is legitimately returned when attempting to do tty-related operations (certain ioctls, for example) on file descriptors which are not connected to tty-like items, and 2) seeing "not a typewriter" in a nonsensical context means that the programmer was using perror() blindly, without caring whether the failure actually set errno -- and in this case, it didn't, so perror() is operating on an old and unrelated value in errno. Why errno seems to wind up with ENOTTY sitting in it so often is a good question, though. -- James W. Birdsall http://www.picarefy.com/~jwbirdsa/ jwbirdsa@picarefy.com "For it is the doom of men that they forget." -- Merlin Get the Sun-2 Hardware Reference from ftp.picarefy.com:/pub/Sun-Hardware-Ref Sun-2 Hardware Reference Web Page: http://sun-www.picarefy.com/ ###### From: Jan van den Broek Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Date: 22 Sep 1998 21:30:54 +0200 Organization: Inktpot & Ganzeveer Lines: 38 Message-ID: <6u8tte$fvi$1@xs2.xs4all.nl> References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607d6e1.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607E8C3.7A387243@danet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: xs2.xs4all.nl X-NNTP-Posting-Host: xs2.xs4all.nl [194.109.6.43] X-XS4ALL-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:30:57 CEST X-No-Ahbou: yes X-Order: Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps, please. X-Question: never, never known not even by many to exist X-rays: Do not expose this message to X-rays. X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!xs4all!xs4all!not-for-mail "J. Benz" writes: >Paul Grayson wrote: >> ># rm -f a:log.txt >> >rm a:log.txt not removed >> >Not a typewriter >> But why should rm treat the colon as meaning a TTY device? Was this an old >> convention from years ago? >> > In my 20 or so years as a Unix developer, I've seen this message many times. I >don't know what it means, except that it is often returned when dealing with >file names that contain special characters (unprintable) (probably why you need >fsdb to remove the file - next time, try quoting the name). Or try "rm a:*" (assuming that there are no other files starting with "a:"). > The error is still >there in the most modern Unix versions - on our DEC Alpha version 4.0 OSF, the >following line appears in /usr/include/errno.h >#define ENOTTY 25 /* Not a typewriter */ >This machine is only a few months old. Same in FreeBSD 2.2.5. It's likely that there are programs still running which are using this error. Removing it from newer version would cause this programs to be broken. (However, I'm quit aware you already knew this, you're 15 years or so ahead of me, I just wanted to point it out).) -- Rozen verwelken, \--------------------\ Schepen vergaan. \ Jan van den Broek \ Een koe moet je melken, \ balglaas@xs4all.nl \ Een paard moet je slaan. \--------------------\ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: hoh@approve.se.NO_JUNK_EMAIL (Goran Larsson) Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Message-ID: <1998Sep23.060113.15097@lorelei.approve.se> Originator: hoh@approve.se.NO_JUNK_EMAIL (Goran Larsson) Sender: hoh@lorelei.approve.se.NO_JUNK_EMAIL (Goran Larsson) Organization: [1] + 5934 done /bin/rm -rf ~/ & X-No-Archive: yes X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test66 (4 June 1998) References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607d6e1.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607E8C3.7A387243@danet.com> <1998Sep22.184525.7971@picarefy.picarefy.com> Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.244.88.22 X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 906530906 130.244.88.22 (Wed, 23 Sep 1998 08:08:26 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 08:08:26 MET DST X-Sender: s-64812@dialup88-2-6.swipnet.se X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 06:01:13 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-stkh.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail In article <1998Sep22.184525.7971@picarefy.picarefy.com>, James W. Birdsall wrote: > Why errno seems to wind up with ENOTTY sitting in it so often is a good > question, though. That has a very simple answer. Quite a number of programs use the c library function isatty(3) directly or indirectly to find out if a file is redirected to a file or if it is the terminal. isatty(3) is very simple, it only does a dummy ioctl(2) (like TCGETS) on the file. If the file descriptor is a file then errno will be ENOTTY after calling isatty(3). A broken program will some time later use perror(3) and the funny message will be shown. -- Goran Larsson hoh AT approve DOT se I was an atheist, http://home1 DOT swipnet DOT se/%7Ew-12153/ until I found out I was God. ###### From: "Paul Grayson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607d6e1.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607E8C3.7A387243@danet.com> Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:27:06 +0100 Lines: 26 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.50.82.193 Message-ID: <3608ad2a.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!WCG!backpost.satin.net!news.saqnet.co.uk!195.50.82.193 >So here's some detective work for you. A DROS program wrote a file containing >this file name a:log.txt. A Unix program read the file, and used the string >from the file, including the trailing ^M (standard in DROS, but not in Unix), as >a file name. Unix obediently created the file 'a:log.txt^M', which you, being a >human and unable to read invisible text, saw as 'a:log.txt'. And when you said >'rm a:log.txt', the shell correctly interpreted the CR as the end of the name >and fed it to 'rm' as a command line parm. 'rm' in your Banyan implementation >saw the extra char, decided it didn't like it, and spit at you. The problem appears to be with rm handling filenames with colons in them - I have created numerous files with colons in them, including one consisting of just a colon. rm fails on all with the same error. There are no extra control characters. Anyway, fsdb nukes them all - and other bits of the disk too. ###### From: Kalle Niemitalo Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Date: 23 Sep 1998 11:22:37 +0300 Organization: University of Oulu, Department of Electrical Engineering, Finland Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607d6e1.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: stekt44.oulu.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-stkh.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed1.funet.fi!ousrvr3.oulu.fi!not-for-mail "Paul Grayson" writes: > And is there any other currently shipping executable around which still > generate errors of this nature. I've seen the same message on Linux/i386 when running this command: lsattr /dev -- Kalle Olavi Niemitalo , http://stekt.oulu.fi/~tosi/ ###### From: jdassen@wi.LeidenUniv.nl (J.H.M. Dassen) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Date: 23 Sep 1998 13:04:31 GMT Organization: Dept. of Math. & Comp. Sc., Leiden University, Leiden, the Netherlands Lines: 22 Message-ID: <6uarkv$qeh$1@noc.wi.leidenuniv.nl> References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: ultra5.wi.leidenuniv.nl X-Trace: noc.wi.leidenuniv.nl 906555871 27089 132.229.128.75 (23 Sep 1998 13:04:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wi.leidenuniv.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Sep 1998 13:04:31 GMT X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.1 UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!surfnet.nl!news.leidenuniv.nl!news.wi.leidenuniv.nl!jdassen Paul Grayson wrote: >Not a typewriter >I wonder if anyone knows what the origin of this error is? Does it come >from early implementations of Unix? Very probably. Even recent Unices still have it (/usr/include/asm/errno.h on Linux: #define ENOTTY 25 /* Not a typewriter */ ). "dict tty" comes up with a reasonable definition, that includes : 2. (Especially {Unix}) Any terminal at all; sometimes used to refer to : the particular terminal controlling a given job (it is also the name : of a Unix command which outputs the name of the current controlling : terminal). Ray -- Cyberspace, a final frontier. These are the voyages of my messages, on a lightspeed mission to explore strange new systems and to boldly go where no data has gone before. ###### From: "George R. Gonzalez" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 13:22:29 -0500 Organization: University of Minnesota, Twin Cities Campus Lines: 14 Message-ID: <6ubeg0$su0$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607d6e1.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607E8C3.7A387243@danet.com> <3608ad2a.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: grg1.micro.umn.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!199.0.154.57!newsbottom.ais.net!newshub.tc.umn.edu!news1.tc.umn.edu!not-for-mail This is the same message we used to get on a certain rainbow-fruit flavor of Unix. If you sent mail to someone whose mailbox was slightly scrozzled, youd get back a msg: theirname - not a typewriter. Once in a while it would say "judy - not a typewriter" which was locally amusing as judy was our secretary, and her fingers were almost always clicking away on a Selectric. ###### From: tph@rmi.net (Tom "Tom" Harrington) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Date: 23 Sep 1998 18:30:00 GMT Organization: Mechanist Industries Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607d6e1.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607E8C3.7A387243@danet.com> <3608ad2a.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell.rmi.net X-Trace: news1.rmi.net 906575400 25042 166.93.8.17 (23 Sep 1998 18:30:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@rmi.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Sep 1998 18:30:00 GMT X-Newsreader: slrn (0.8.6.1) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!166.93.8.12!natasha.rmii.com!news1.rmi.net!tph In article <3608ad2a.0@news.saqnet.co.uk>, "Paul Grayson" wrote: >The problem appears to be with rm handling filenames with colons in them - I >have created numerous files with colons in them, including one consisting of >just a colon. rm fails on all with the same error. There are no extra >control characters. Must be a broken implementation, then. Solaris doesn't seem to mind: $ touch a:b $ ls -l a:b -rw-rw-r-- 1 tph 0 Sep 23 12:28 a:b $ rm a:b $ ls -l a:b a:b not found -- Tom "Tom" Harrington ----- tph@rmi.net ----- http://rainbow.rmi.net/~tph use Perl || die; Cookie's Revenge: ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/tph/cr/cookies-revenge.sit.hqx ###### Message-ID: <3609B2C6.6410@hiwaay.net> Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 21:47:59 -0500 From: David K Cornutt X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607d6e1.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607E8C3.7A387243@danet.com> <3608ad2a.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers NNTP-Posting-Host: tnt1-120.HiWAAY.net 208.147.147.120 Lines: 51 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.vienna.good.net!news.good.net!news.hiwaay.net!pet.hiwaay.net Tom Tom Harrington wrote: > > In article <3608ad2a.0@news.saqnet.co.uk>, "Paul Grayson" wrote: > >The problem appears to be with rm handling filenames with colons in them - I > >have created numerous files with colons in them, including one consisting of > >just a colon. rm fails on all with the same error. There are no extra > >control characters. > > Must be a broken implementation, then. Solaris doesn't seem to mind: Here's my pet theory: Actually I think Paul may have inadvertently hit on what the problem may be. The notation "foo:bar" is a syntax that was originally adopted by the BSD "r-tools" to specify doing things with files on other nodes, as in: rcp myfile.x frankenix:archive/myfile.x which would copy myfile.x to a directory called archive on a network node called "frankenix". Now, I've never heard of "normal" Unix command utilities being implemented to recognize the r-tools syntax. But is it possible that some gonzo programmer on this particular version of the system implemented rm as an r-tool? Maybe it's going out onto the net trying to find a node called "a" and delete a file called "log.txt" there. Presuming that there isn't a node on the network named "a", then maybe rm at that point is trying to a socket-type operation on something that isn't a connected socket, and getting the ENOTTY error. (I didn't realize, though, that there were still systems out there whose perror() routines still translate ENOTTY to the text "not a typewriter".) What ENOTTY means is that an attempt to do an ioctl() was done on a file or device that doesn't support that particular type of ioctl. Back in the bad old days, only serial port drivers supported ioctl's, and so the error was originally defined as "not a serial port" (since there was nothing else to do an ioctl on). And since back in the bad old days the device connected to a serial port was nearly always a Teletype or something of its ilk, the "not a typewriter" translation of ENOTTY evolved. Can you use "mv" to rename the file to something that doesn't have a colon in it? -- David K. Cornutt, Residentially Engineered, Huntsville, AL Advice from the B-29 pilot's manual, on dropping cargo via parachute: "CAUTION: Do not attach static line to any part of one's body when throwing equipment through the opening." ###### Sender: Longi From: Longi Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607d6e1.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607E8C3.7A387243@danet.com> <3608ad2a.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <6ubeg0$su0$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> Organization: Tree-hugging hippy crap! Reply-To: longi@sekurity.org User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980226 (UNIX) (Linux/2.1.115 (i686)) NNTP-Posting-Host: lunchbox.warehouse.net Message-ID: <3609ad86.0@news.aus.warehouse.net> Date: 24 Sep 98 02:25:10 GMT Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-dc.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsgate.cuhk.edu.hk!news-hk.telia.net!d2o501.telia.com!news-hk.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-sydn.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.aus.warehouse.net!not-for-mail George R. Gonzalez wrote: : This is the same message we used to get on a certain rainbow-fruit flavor : of Unix. : If you sent mail to someone whose mailbox was slightly scrozzled, youd : get back a msg: : theirname - not a typewriter. We used to hack the source to say "not a washing machine", someone on the UNIX-HATER mailing list had "not a bicycle". AT&T - You Will (Take Acid). There was a version of Amix (Commodore's Unix for the Amiga 3000UX) that came out with some other amusing lines as well. -- longi@sekurity.org - In the flesh, on the phone, and in your account. - BOFH ###### From: "Paul Grayson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607d6e1.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607E8C3.7A387243@danet.com> <3608ad2a.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3609B2C6.6410@hiwaay.net> Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:12:58 +0100 Lines: 8 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.50.82.193 Message-ID: <360a094f.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!WCG!backpost.satin.net!news.saqnet.co.uk!195.50.82.193 >Can you use "mv" to rename the file to something that doesn't >have a colon in it? No - that fails with a cannot unlink error message. ###### From: "Paul Grayson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607d6e1.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607E8C3.7A387243@danet.com> <3608ad2a.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3609B2C6.6410@hiwaay.net> Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 11:17:05 +0100 Lines: 22 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.50.82.193 Message-ID: <360a1857.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!insnet.net!backpost.satin.net!news.saqnet.co.uk!195.50.82.193 >Actually I think Paul may have inadvertently hit on what the problem may >be. >The notation "foo:bar" is a syntax that was originally adopted by the >BSD "r-tools" to specify doing things with files on other nodes, as in: > >rcp myfile.x frankenix:archive/myfile.x > ..snip.. Very plausible. Banyan VINES is an almost dead UNIX based Network operating system. It is possible that there was some attempt to perform remote file operations. There is an undocumented remote copy deamon that appears to be only avaiable to maintenance personel - it can only be created if the correct activation code or option dongle is used. Perhaps the rm was to be used with this? Also the underlying OS is a very old PC based Unix originally sourced from AT&T which has not really changed in many years, and Banyan only appear to recompile the standard utilities only when needed. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607d6e1.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607E8C3.7A387243@danet.com> <1998Sep22.184525.7971@picarefy.picarefy.com> Organization: Plethora . Net - More Net, Less Spam! X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test62 (21 February 1998) From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Lines: 14 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 17:50:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.166.146.8 X-Trace: ptah.visi.com 906659402 205.166.146.8 (Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:50:02 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:50:02 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-dc.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-nyc.telia.net!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail In article <1998Sep22.184525.7971@picarefy.picarefy.com>, James W. Birdsall wrote: > Why errno seems to wind up with ENOTTY sitting in it so often is a good >question, though. When stdio opens a stream it typically ioctl's to see whether it's a TTY (and thus line buffered) or not (and thus fully buffered), so it gets ENOTTY. -s -- Copyright 1998, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! Seeking interesting programming projects. Not interested in commuting. Visit my new ISP --- More Net, Less Spam! ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3608ad2a.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <6ubeg0$su0$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> <3609ad86.0@news.aus.warehouse.net> Organization: Plethora . Net - More Net, Less Spam! X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test62 (21 February 1998) From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Lines: 13 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 17:51:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.166.146.8 X-Trace: ptah.visi.com 906659491 205.166.146.8 (Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:51:31 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:51:31 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail In article <3609ad86.0@news.aus.warehouse.net>, Longi wrote: >There was a version of Amix (Commodore's Unix for the Amiga 3000UX) that >came out with some other amusing lines as well. What were these? I loved my Amiga Unix box. :) -s -- Copyright 1998, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! Seeking interesting programming projects. Not interested in commuting. Visit my new ISP --- More Net, Less Spam! ###### From: Tony Sweeney Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 18:46:24 -0700 Organization: Informix. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <360AF5F0.8004EA2D@informix.com> References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607d6e1.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607E8C3.7A387243@danet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: golem.oak.informix.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!ix.netcom.com!arl-news-svc-3.compuserve.com!news.informix.com!not-for-mail J. Benz wrote: > > It's easy to create names with invisible characters too. Any C program can > create any file name out of the entire ASCII character set, excepting shell > metas and other obvious ones like '|' or '/'. The _only_ characters unix forbid are the '/' and the nul ('\0'). The slash because it is the directory separator, and the nul because it is the end of string marker. Everything else is allowed, including eight bit characters on som systems, like the Sun Ultra 2 I'm typing this on. Tony. ###### From: das@picknowl.com.au (David Simpson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Message-ID: <360d5dad.4864487@news.picknowl.com.au> References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607d6e1.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 06:37:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.38.162.11 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telstra.net X-Trace: nsw.nnrp.telstra.net 906795466 203.38.162.11 (Sat, 26 Sep 1998 17:37:46 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 17:37:46 EST Organization: Telstra Big Pond Direct Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!not-for-mail On Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:12:32 +0100, "Paul Grayson" wrote: > >># rm -f a:log.txt >>rm a:log.txt not removed >>Not a typewriter >> > > >Further investigation by means of running strings on rm shows the error is >returned by rm. I have deduced by means of the other error messages in this >dump that the call that rm is making is being returned decimal 25 which >translates as ENOTTY. Obviously the error string comes from the days of >teletypes, and the source hasn't been updated. > >But why should rm treat the colon as meaning a TTY device? Was this an old >convention from years ago? > The CP/M OS and early MSDOS treated the trailing colon as a device character. A: was the first disk drive, PRN: was the printer. PRN: could be attached to LPT: (x is number of port) or COM: CON: was the console consisting of keyboard and screen. Later MSDOS allowed the trailing colon to be dropped from PRN. I don't know why this convention was instigated. Gary Kildall was a programmer so he was probably following the convention of whatever hardware he was using at the same time he wrote CP/M in circa 1974. David Simpson das@picknowl.com.au =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Anatomy: Something that everybody has, but it looks better on a girl. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: chris@transdata.co.nz ("chris 'fufas' grace") Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Message-ID: <1998Sep26.215032.27861@transdataco.nz> X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.0 Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: elizabeth X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607d6e1.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <360d5dad.4864487@news.picknowl.com.au> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 09:46:35 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!202.14.100.1!status.gen.nz!kcbbs!transdata!not-for-mail David Simpson wrote in message <360d5dad.4864487@news.picknowl.com.au>... >The CP/M OS and early MSDOS treated the trailing colon as a device >character. A: was the first disk drive, PRN: was the printer. PRN: >could be attached to LPT: (x is number of port) or COM: CON: was the >console consisting of keyboard and screen. Later MSDOS allowed the >trailing colon to be dropped from PRN. I don't know why this >convention was instigated. Gary Kildall was a programmer so he was >probably following the convention of whatever hardware he was using at >the same time he wrote CP/M in circa 1974. It was quite widespread. the Atari 400 and 800 used the same convention, (with the interesting feature that the screen could be used as an input device), and I'm almost certain that the Commodores did as well, although I never owned one of those and am relying on memory here. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: hooft@natlab.research.philips.com (Peter van Hooft) Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Sender: news@natlab.research.philips.com (USEnet Subsystem) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 18:23:44 GMT X-Nntp-Posting-Host: zaphod References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607d6e1.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607E8C3.7A387243@danet.com> <3608ad2a.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> Organization: Philips Research Laboratories Eindhoven, Netherlands Lines: 35 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!sun4nl!phcoms4.seri.philips.nl!newssvr!zaphod!hooft In <3608ad2a.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> "Paul Grayson" writes: >>So here's some detective work for you. A DROS program wrote a file >containing >>this file name a:log.txt. A Unix program read the file, and used the >string >>from the file, including the trailing ^M (standard in DROS, but not in >Unix), as >>a file name. Unix obediently created the file 'a:log.txt^M', which you, >being a >>human and unable to read invisible text, saw as 'a:log.txt'. And when you >said >>'rm a:log.txt', the shell correctly interpreted the CR as the end of the >name >>and fed it to 'rm' as a command line parm. 'rm' in your Banyan >implementation >>saw the extra char, decided it didn't like it, and spit at you. >The problem appears to be with rm handling filenames with colons in them - I >have created numerous files with colons in them, including one consisting of >just a colon. rm fails on all with the same error. There are no extra >control characters. You are not using unix, then. As has been mentioned before, unix doesn't care what characters are used for a filename, except for / and the NUL character. >Anyway, fsdb nukes them all - and other bits of the disk too. If you have to use fsdb often, your system is very, _very_ broken. peter ###### From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 13:17:25 GMT Organization: . Lines: 39 Message-ID: <360e3845.61739@news.innet.be> References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607d6e1.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607E8C3.7A387243@danet.com> <3608ad2a.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-147-40.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!diablo.theplanet.net!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail Also sprach hooft@natlab.research.philips.com (Peter van Hooft) on Sat, 26 Sep 1998 18:23:44 GMT to alt.folklore.computers: > You are not using unix, then. As has been mentioned before, unix doesn't > care what characters are used for a filename, except for / and the NUL > character. Yes and no, I think (and btw, what variety of unix do you call unix?) I know it's not exactly unix, but it's the only manual I have within reach - this comes from the Coherent manual: " Any character can be used to name a file, including a control character. It is recommended, however, that you name files using only upper- or lower-case alphabetic characters, numerals, and the puctuation marks '.' or '_'. " Unix doesn't mind, but I know for sure that the version of bash I'm using doesn't require spaces as delimiters around redirection characters '>', '<' and '|' (well, you can still quote them - but I'd probably forget to do that half the time). Quotation characters can be used for quoting a name, but when you try to include them in a filename: fo"o.ba"r is evaluated as foo.bar and fo"o.bar is evaluated as the C style string "foo.bar\n" (at least I think the \n is included) after which a continuation line is started, because the closing " is missing. ###### Message-ID: <360F874D.D402CB2D@danet.com> Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 08:55:42 -0400 From: "J. Benz" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607d6e1.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607E8C3.7A387243@danet.com> <3608ad2a.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <360e3845.61739@news.innet.be> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: pc-135.danet.com Lines: 29 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub.northeast.verio.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!news.nauticom.net!pc-135.danet.com Luc Van der Veken wrote: > Unix doesn't mind, but I know for sure that the version of bash > I'm using doesn't require spaces as delimiters around redirection > characters '>', '<' and '|' (well, you can still quote them - but > I'd probably forget to do that half the time). > > Quotation characters can be used for quoting a name, but when you > try to include them in a filename: > > fo"o.ba"r > is evaluated as > foo.bar > > and > > fo"o.bar > is evaluated as the C style string > "foo.bar\n" (at least I think the \n is included) > after which a continuation line is started, because the closing " > is missing. The shell isn't Unix. Especially bash. Try building a C program which uses the example file names you mention. Shells do a lot of pre-digesting of your input before passing it off to Unix - and bash isn't even part of a standard Unix release. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: "John D. Burleson" Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. X-Nntp-Posting-Host: help.hv.boeing.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <360F8F7A.1E5B7244@boeing.com> Sender: nntp@news.boeing.com (Boeing NNTP News Access) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: The Boeing Company - Huntsville References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607d6e1.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607E8C3.7A387243@danet.com> <3608ad2a.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <360e3845.61739@news.innet.be> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 13:30:34 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Lines: 32 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!192.220.250.21!netnews1.nw.verio.net!netnews.nwnet.net!xyzzy!not-for-mail Luc Van der Veken wrote: > > > Quotation characters can be used for quoting a name, but when you > try to include them in a filename: > > fo"o.ba"r > is evaluated as > foo.bar This is because you are trying incorrectly. Both fo\".ba\"r and 'fo"o.ba"r' will yield a file name with embedded double quotes. You need to remember that the shell parser will gobble those quotes _before_ the token is interpreted as a filename. > > and > > fo"o.bar > is evaluated as the C style string > "foo.bar\n" (at least I think the \n is included) > after which a continuation line is started, because the closing " > is missing. This is true for Bourne shell derivatives, the csh family will produce an error unless you escape the newline with a backslash, IIRC. john ###### From: "Paul Grayson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607d6e1.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607E8C3.7A387243@danet.com> <3608ad2a.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 15:45:39 +0100 Lines: 19 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.50.82.193 Message-ID: <360f9cdd.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!isdnet!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!194.72.7.126!btnet-peer!btnet!insnet.net!backpost.satin.net!news.saqnet.co.uk!195.50.82.193 >You are not using unix, then. As has been mentioned before, unix doesn't >care what characters are used for a filename, except for / and the NUL >character. Oh yes I am. The unix filesystem itself does not care, but shells and other applications may. In this case rm is treating the colon in a special way, and may be attempting to perform some form of remote procedure call. There is something odd about this implementation of rm. I don't have access to a C compiler on this system, and therefore cannot try compiling the GNU version of rm. An earlier version of VINES does not have this problem with rm, though. The bug was introduced sometime between 1993 and 1996 as far as I can tell. Installing later releases of the software should help me pinpoint exactly when it happened. I did attempt to install a copy from 1990, but cannot find a platform that will not cause a kernel panic when reading the harddisk. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: hooft@natlab.research.philips.com (Peter van Hooft) Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Sender: news@natlab.research.philips.com (USEnet Subsystem) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 19:46:09 GMT X-Nntp-Posting-Host: zaphod References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607d6e1.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607E8C3.7A387243@danet.com> <3608ad2a.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <360e3845.61739@news.innet.be> Organization: Philips Research Laboratories Eindhoven, Netherlands Lines: 56 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!sun4nl!phcoms4.seri.philips.nl!newssvr!zaphod!hooft In <360e3845.61739@news.innet.be> lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) writes: >Also sprach hooft@natlab.research.philips.com (Peter van Hooft) >on Sat, 26 Sep 1998 18:23:44 GMT to alt.folklore.computers: >> You are not using unix, then. As has been mentioned before, unix doesn't >> care what characters are used for a filename, except for / and the NUL >> character. >Yes and no, I think (and btw, what variety of unix do you call >unix?) Any descendant of the operating system created by Thomson and Ritchie? >I know it's not exactly unix, but it's the only manual I have >within reach - this comes from the Coherent manual: >" Any character can be used to name a file, including a control > character. It is recommended, however, that you name files > using only upper- or lower-case alphabetic characters, > numerals, and the puctuation marks '.' or '_'. >" Well, the first is clearly wrong. You can't use / and nul (although there was a version of the cap software that _would_ create filenames with / in it, probably by hacking it in the kernel, creating interesting problems. The recommendation is reasonable, except I wouldn't mind the usage of for example the hyphen and %. >Unix doesn't mind, but I know for sure that the version of bash >I'm using doesn't require spaces as delimiters around redirection >characters '>', '<' and '|' (well, you can still quote them - but >I'd probably forget to do that half the time). >Quotation characters can be used for quoting a name, but when you >try to include them in a filename: > fo"o.ba"r >is evaluated as > foo.bar >and > fo"o.bar >is evaluated as the C style string > "foo.bar\n" (at least I think the \n is included) >after which a continuation line is started, because the closing " >is missing. Yup. Depending on the shell you're using, special characters in filenames can prove interesting. peter ###### From: tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Date: 5 Oct 1998 16:27:53 GMT Organization: Mechanist Industries Lines: 63 Message-ID: <6vas29$fjs4@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607d6e1.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607E8C3.7A387243@danet.com> <3608ad2a.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <360e3845.61739@news.innet.be> Reply-To: tph@rmi.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cs0053.eld.ford.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!news1.ispnews.com!news2.acs.oakland.edu!jobone!dailyplanet.srl.ford.com!eccws1.dearborn.ford.com!longhorn!tph Peter van Hooft (hooft@natlab.research.philips.com) wrote: : In <360e3845.61739@news.innet.be> lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) writes: : >Also sprach hooft@natlab.research.philips.com (Peter van Hooft) : >on Sat, 26 Sep 1998 18:23:44 GMT to alt.folklore.computers: : >> You are not using unix, then. As has been mentioned before, unix doesn't : >> care what characters are used for a filename, except for / and the NUL : >> character. : >Yes and no, I think (and btw, what variety of unix do you call : >unix?) : Any descendant of the operating system created by Thomson and : Ritchie? : >I know it's not exactly unix, but it's the only manual I have : >within reach - this comes from the Coherent manual: : >" Any character can be used to name a file, including a control : > character. It is recommended, however, that you name files : > using only upper- or lower-case alphabetic characters, : > numerals, and the puctuation marks '.' or '_'. : >" : Well, the first is clearly wrong. You can't use / and nul (although : there was a version of the cap software that _would_ create : filenames with / in it, probably by hacking it in the kernel, : creating interesting problems. The recommendation is reasonable, : except I wouldn't mind the usage of for example the hyphen and %. : >Unix doesn't mind, but I know for sure that the version of bash : >I'm using doesn't require spaces as delimiters around redirection : >characters '>', '<' and '|' (well, you can still quote them - but : >I'd probably forget to do that half the time). : >Quotation characters can be used for quoting a name, but when you : >try to include them in a filename: : > fo"o.ba"r : >is evaluated as : > foo.bar : >and : > fo"o.bar : >is evaluated as the C style string : > "foo.bar\n" (at least I think the \n is included) : >after which a continuation line is started, because the closing " : >is missing. : Yup. Depending on the shell you're using, special characters in : filenames can prove interesting. : peter -- Tom Harrington --------- tph@rmii.com -------- http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph "...one can get high scores on intelligence tests, but still be unable to think for one's self." -Revelation X: The "Bob" Apocryphon Cookie's Revenge: ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/tph/cookie/cookies-revenge.sit.hqx ###### From: tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Date: 6 Oct 1998 15:27:43 GMT Organization: Mechanist Industries Lines: 34 Message-ID: <6vdctf$cpg2@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607d6e1.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607E8C3.7A387243@danet.com> <3608ad2a.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <360e3845.61739@news.innet.be> Reply-To: tph@rmi.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cs0053.eld.ford.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news2.acs.oakland.edu!jobone!dailyplanet.srl.ford.com!eccws1.dearborn.ford.com!longhorn!tph Peter van Hooft (hooft@natlab.research.philips.com) wrote: : In <360e3845.61739@news.innet.be> lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) writes: : >Also sprach hooft@natlab.research.philips.com (Peter van Hooft) : >on Sat, 26 Sep 1998 18:23:44 GMT to alt.folklore.computers: : >> You are not using unix, then. As has been mentioned before, unix doesn't : >> care what characters are used for a filename, except for / and the NUL : >> character. : >Yes and no, I think (and btw, what variety of unix do you call : >unix?) : Any descendant of the operating system created by Thomson and : Ritchie? This doesn't seem like a very good test. Does any current Unix include code actually written by Thomson and/or Ritchie? And if a Unix implementation is free of code written by those two, why would its position on the Unix family tree give it some special status? If all the code has at some point been rewritten or reimplemented, then it would seem that it's no more a "true" Unix than systems completely outside of the Thomson/Ritchie realm like Linux. Trademark issues aside, it would seem that the important details are in how a system works, rather than the question of whether a tenuous descendancy from the original Unix can be established. FreeBSD has no original Thomson/Ritchie code, for example; does its ancestry, completely aside from operational issues, make it more of a Unix than Linux? -- Tom Harrington --------- tph@rmii.com -------- http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph "If you think there is a solution, you're part of the problem." -Zippy Cookie's Revenge: ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/tph/cookie/cookies-revenge.sit.hqx ###### From: "Samael" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:20:10 +0100 Lines: 42 Message-ID: <361a433b.0@122.122.122.1> References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607d6e1.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607E8C3.7A387243@danet.com> <3608ad2a.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <360e3845.61739@news.innet.be> <6vdctf$cpg2@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.147.12.6 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.itg.net.uk!122.122.122.1!122.122.122.1 Tom Harrington wrote in message <6vdctf$cpg2@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com>... >Peter van Hooft (hooft@natlab.research.philips.com) wrote: >: In <360e3845.61739@news.innet.be> lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) writes: > >: >Also sprach hooft@natlab.research.philips.com (Peter van Hooft) >: >on Sat, 26 Sep 1998 18:23:44 GMT to alt.folklore.computers: > >: >> You are not using unix, then. As has been mentioned before, unix doesn't >: >> care what characters are used for a filename, except for / and the NUL >: >> character. > >: >Yes and no, I think (and btw, what variety of unix do you call >: >unix?) > >: Any descendant of the operating system created by Thomson and >: Ritchie? > >This doesn't seem like a very good test. Does any current Unix include >code actually written by Thomson and/or Ritchie? And if a Unix >implementation is free of code written by those two, why would its >position on the Unix family tree give it some special status? >If all the code has at some point been rewritten or reimplemented, >then it would seem that it's no more a "true" Unix than systems >completely outside of the Thomson/Ritchie realm like Linux. >Trademark issues aside, it would seem that the important details >are in how a system works, rather than the question of whether a >tenuous descendancy from the original Unix can be established. >FreeBSD has no original Thomson/Ritchie code, for example; does >its ancestry, completely aside from operational issues, make it >more of a Unix than Linux? I was under the impression that Linux was a Unix variant. I would say that a Unix is defined by its conformance to the Unix API and command set. Samael ###### From: harter@feeding.frenzy.com (Sam Hayes Merritt, III) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Message-ID: <3619d600.14814240@207.207.0.105> References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607d6e1.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607E8C3.7A387243@danet.com> <3608ad2a.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <360e3845.61739@news.innet.be> <6vdctf$cpg2@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <361a433b.0@122.122.122.1> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 17 Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 01:22:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.90.217.167 X-Trace: news.giganews.com 907766558 207.90.217.167 (Wed, 07 Oct 1998 08:22:38 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 08:22:38 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.clark.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!nntp.giganews.com!news.giganews.com!not-for-mail On Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:20:10 +0100, "Samael" wrote: I know I will rot for this one. >I was under the impression that Linux was a Unix variant. I was under the impression that it mimics the form and function of a UNIX system. (http://www.unix-systems.org/what_is_unix/). >I would say that a Unix is defined by its conformance to the Unix API and >command set. unix like, yes. Unix... no. Trademarks are a pain. Sam Hayes Merritt, III ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <6vdctf$cpg2@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <361a433b.0@122.122.122.1> <3619d600.14814240@207.207.0.105> Organization: Gehenna-By-The-Sea From: thedavid@tsoft.com (General Panic) Lines: 46 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.201.34.8 X-Trace: news14.ispnews.com 907932678 207.201.34.8 (Fri, 09 Oct 1998 07:31:18 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 07:31:18 EDT Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 11:31:18 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!btnet-peer!btnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!205.252.116.205!howland.erols.net!hub1.ispnews.com!news14.ispnews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Sam Hayes Merritt, III wrote: >On Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:20:10 +0100, "Samael" >wrote: > >I know I will rot for this one. > >>I was under the impression that Linux was a Unix variant. > >I was under the impression that it mimics the form and function of a >UNIX system. (http://www.unix-systems.org/what_is_unix/). According to that page the *BSD(I) stuff ain't Unix either. These are: * Digital UNIX * IBM OS/390 OpenEdition * IBM RS6000 Software * SCO UnixWare * SUN Solaris And Hewlett-Packard's HP-UX would qualify too. Of these I've used HP-UX and Solaris; I recall the ISP that used Solaris didn't buy the C compiler -- after we complained a couple months they installed GCC! >>I would say that a Unix is defined by its conformance to >>the Unix API and command set. > >unix like, yes. Unix... no. Even if an OS comes with vi? :-} > Trademarks are a pain. So is *paying* for an OS, which I *won't* do. ObAFC: What's next for the "unixoid" type o' thing, like what new features/capabilities will it have? (I'm asking for speculations and educated guesses, not trade secrets!) David ###### From: tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Date: 9 Oct 1998 16:11:11 GMT Organization: Mechanist Industries Lines: 50 Message-ID: <6vlciv$8p06@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <6vdctf$cpg2@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <361a433b.0@122.122.122.1> <3619d600.14814240@207.207.0.105> Reply-To: tph@rmi.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cs0053.eld.ford.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!btnet-peer!btnet!newshub.northeast.verio.net!newsfeed.xcom.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!ulowell.uml.edu!news.tacom.army.mil!news2.acs.oakland.edu!jobone!dailyplanet.srl.ford.com!eccws1.dearborn.ford.com!longhorn!tph General Panic (thedavid@tsoft.com) wrote: : Sam Hayes Merritt, III wrote: : >On Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:20:10 +0100, "Samael" : >wrote: : > : >I know I will rot for this one. : > : >>I was under the impression that Linux was a Unix variant. : > : >I was under the impression that it mimics the form and function of a : >UNIX system. (http://www.unix-systems.org/what_is_unix/). But this begs the question: How closely does it need to "mimic" Unix before it becomes indistinguishable from the real thing? That page gives no hint as to where Linux might fail in being a real Unix. : According to that page the *BSD(I) stuff ain't Unix either. They've also got a financial interest in describing Linux as not being a "real" Unix system. You can't use the Unix trademark unless you pay the Open Group somewhere between $25,000 and $110,000 per year. The exact fee depends on the number of copies sold, which raises the question of whether a free system could ever qualify. Describing Linux and BSDI as non-Unix systems is part of protecting the trademark. BSDI is, as they say, "not a UNIX system", but this has more to do with the fact that they haven't bought the trademark than with any operational questions. They never do address the question of what _else_ might separate Linux and BSDI from the trademarked Unixes. The implication seems to be that either of them could be Unix if someone came up with the money. : >>I would say that a Unix is defined by its conformance to : >>the Unix API and command set. : > : >unix like, yes. Unix... no. But the more Unix-like a system becomes, the harder it is to draw a line separating it from Unix. I'd agree that there's more to it than APIs and commands, but if you keep updating an OS to make it more and more Unix-like, it would seem that eventually it _is_ Unix, or could be if you get it close enough. Functionally, that is. Trademark issues are another matter. No system is ever UNIX (tm) unless they pay for the name. BTW, the term "Unix-like" is "an abuse of the UNIX trademark, and should not be used...", according to the Open Group. -- Tom Harrington --------- tph@rmii.com -------- http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph "That which does not kill me makes me stranger." -Larry Wall Cookie's Revenge: ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/tph/cookie/cookies-revenge.sit.hqx ###### From: cpierce1@cp500.fsic.ford.com (Clinton Pierce) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Date: 9 Oct 1998 18:37:47 GMT Organization: Ford Motor Company Lines: 18 Message-ID: <6vll5r$qev5@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3608ad2a.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <360e3845.61739@news.innet.be> <6vdctf$cpg2@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <361a433b.0@122.122.122.1> <3619d600.14814240@207.207.0.105> <6vlciv$8p06@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cp500.fsic.ford.com X-Newsreader: knews 0.9.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!ulowell.uml.edu!news.tacom.army.mil!news2.acs.oakland.edu!jobone!dailyplanet.srl.ford.com!eccws1.dearborn.ford.com!news In article <6vlciv$8p06@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com>, tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) writes: > >BTW, the term "Unix-like" is "an abuse of the UNIX trademark, and should >not be used...", according to the Open Group. > IMHO, the Open Group is an abuse of the UNIX trademark, and should not be used. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Clinton A. Pierce | "If you rush a Miracle Man, | http://www. | | cpierce1@ford.com | you get rotten miracles" | dcicorp.com/ | | fubar@ameritech.net |--Miracle Max, The Princess Bride| ~clintp | +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ GCSd-s+:+a-C++UALIS++++P+++L++E---t++X+b+++DI++++G++e+>++h----r+++y+++>y* ###### From: David Wragg Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Organization: French Toast! Message-ID: References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <6vdctf$cpg2@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <361a433b.0@122.122.122.1> <3619d600.14814240@207.207.0.105> <6vlciv$8p06@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Date: 10 Oct 1998 15:42:30 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.119.176.228 X-Complaints-To: news@u-net.net X-Trace: newsr2.u-net.net 908067229 194.119.176.228 (Sun, 11 Oct 1998 01:53:49 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 01:53:49 BST Lines: 8 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!ayres.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!peer.news.zetnet.net!peer.news.bb.u-net.net!u-net!newsr2.u-net.net.POSTED!gatsby.u-net.com!not-for-mail tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) writes: > But this begs the question: How closely does it need to "mimic" Unix > before it becomes indistinguishable from the real thing? That page > gives no hint as to where Linux might fail in being a real Unix. So would Linux pass a "Turix test" Dave Wragg ###### From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Date: 11 Oct 1998 15:04:06 GMT Message-ID: <6vqhd6$1jq$7@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <6vlciv$8p06@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-043.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: irk.zetnet.co.uk 908118246 1658 194.247.41.53 (11 Oct 1998 15:04:06 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Oct 1998 15:04:06 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1998-10-09 tph@rmi.net said: :BTW, the term "Unix-like" is "an abuse of the UNIX trademark, and :should not be used...", according to the Open Group. Hmm... perhaps we should all start referring to Linux as "like that operating system which we can't name because its trademark is owned by the greedy bastards in the Open Group who keep playing dog-in-the-manger with a name that started out as a bad pun and has about as much right to be a trademark as 386"... if it's not too big a mouthful... -- Communa (so sue) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Date: 11 Oct 1998 22:22:41 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 22 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: References: <6vlciv$8p06@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <6vqhd6$1jq$7@irk.zetnet.co.uk> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 lisard@zetnet.co.uk writes: > > Hmm... perhaps we should all start referring to Linux as "like that > operating system which we can't name because its trademark is owned by > the greedy bastards in the Open Group who keep playing dog-in-the-manger > with a name that started out as a bad pun and has about as much right to > be a trademark as 386"... if it's not too big a mouthful... User error: dumping core. Retch. Why not follow the suggestion in someone heres sig block? Refer to Linux as Linux (everyone knows waht that is) and the rest as Linux-like OSes? -- *** New home Addresses Mail and Web *** home: neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ work: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ Microsoft is Software Communism, Fight for GNU Freedom! ###### From: tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Date: 12 Oct 1998 16:06:46 GMT Organization: Mechanist Industries Lines: 37 Message-ID: <6vt9em$6bi3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> References: <6vlciv$8p06@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> Reply-To: tph@rmi.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cs0053.eld.ford.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!jobone!dailyplanet.srl.ford.com!eccws1.dearborn.ford.com!longhorn!tph Neil Franklin (neil@franklin.ch.remove) wrote: : lisard@zetnet.co.uk writes: : > : > Hmm... perhaps we should all start referring to Linux as "like that : > operating system which we can't name because its trademark is owned by : > the greedy bastards in the Open Group who keep playing dog-in-the-manger : > with a name that started out as a bad pun and has about as much right to : > be a trademark as 386"... if it's not too big a mouthful... "The operating systems formerly known as Unix"? : User error: dumping core. Retch. If you think that one quote is retch-worthy, you should see the official trademark usage guidelines.... Fortunately they don't seem to take enforcement too seriously. A quick check at the OpenBSD and FreeBSD web pages confirms that both are each described as being Unix, even though they're (of course) not Open Group- approved. : Why not follow the suggestion in someone heres sig block? : Refer to Linux as Linux (everyone knows waht that is) and the rest as : Linux-like OSes? As tempting as that is, I'm not partisan enough to want to piss off the *BSD crown that much. I do like the idea of describing Open Group-branded Unix systems as, by definition, costly Linux-like operating systems. Maybe if we referred to official "Unix (tm)" products as either Linux- like systems or BSD-like, depending on personal preference. -- Tom Harrington --------- tph@rmii.com -------- http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph "I know syllables and I use them in almost every word." -Steve Winter (stevwint@ix.netcom.com) Cookie's Revenge: ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/tph/cookie/cookies-revenge.sit.hqx ###### From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 17:50:48 GMT Organization: . Lines: 14 Message-ID: <36273fd3.4660080@news.uunet.be> References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <6vdctf$cpg2@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <361a433b.0@122.122.122.1> <3619d600.14814240@207.207.0.105> <6vlciv$8p06@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-148-134.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!peer.news.th.u-net.net!u-net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail Also sprach tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) on 9 Oct 1998 16:11:11 GMT to alt.folklore.computers: > BTW, the term "Unix-like" is "an abuse of the UNIX trademark, and should > not be used...", according to the Open Group. Then how do they feel about "GNU is Not Unix"? A most blatant trademark violation - claiming they're not selling (or giving away) Unix, but at the same time trying to make people associate them with the name? - Or the ultimate in honesty, telling people it's not what it looks like? ###### From: abuse@quipu.waterloo-rdp.on.ca (Kevin Schoedel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 23:12:52 -0400 Organization: IGS - Information Gateway Services Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <6vlciv$8p06@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <6vt9em$6bi3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ttyc0a.kw.igs.net X-Trace: news.igs.net 908248360 25190 206.248.55.138 (13 Oct 1998 03:12:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@igs.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Oct 1998 03:12:40 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.3.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!torn!nntp.igs.net!news.igs.net!ttyc0a.kw.igs.net!user Tom Harrington wrote: > : lisard@zetnet.co.uk writes: > : > > : > Hmm... perhaps we should all start referring to Linux as "like that > : > operating system which we can't name because its trademark is owned by > : > the greedy bastards in the Open Group who keep playing dog-in-the-manger > : > with a name that started out as a bad pun and has about as much right to > : > be a trademark as 386"... if it's not too big a mouthful... > > "The operating systems formerly known as Unix"? Wonderful! My *BSD-slanted rendering of this (as a 3K gif) is at . -- Kevin Schoedel fpubrqry@xj.vtf.arg ###### From: tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Date: 15 Oct 1998 17:33:42 GMT Organization: Mechanist Industries Lines: 18 Message-ID: <705blm$aem2@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <6vdctf$cpg2@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <361a433b.0@122.122.122.1> <3619d600.14814240@207.207.0.105> <6vlciv$8p06@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> Reply-To: tph@rmi.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cs0053.eld.ford.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!jobone!dailyplanet.srl.ford.com!eccws1.dearborn.ford.com!longhorn!tph David Wragg (dpw@doc.ic.ac.uk) wrote: : tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) writes: : > But this begs the question: How closely does it need to "mimic" Unix : > before it becomes indistinguishable from the real thing? That page : > gives no hint as to where Linux might fail in being a real Unix. : So would Linux pass a "Turix test" Probably, an BSDI and the various free *BSD implementations probably would too. But "Turix" sounds like Unix, implemented on a Turing machine. :-) -- Tom Harrington --------- tph@rmii.com -------- http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph "Television commercials are a form of religious literature." -Neil Postman Cookie's Revenge: ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/tph/cookie/cookies-revenge.sit.hqx ###### From: Hannu Rummukainen Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Date: 17 Oct 1998 08:41:55 GMT Organization: Rubberchicken Owners Anonymous Lines: 7 Message-ID: References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <6vdctf$cpg2@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <361a433b.0@122.122.122.1> <3619d600.14814240@207.207.0.105> <6vlciv$8p06@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <705blm$aem2@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> Reply-To: hrummuka@cc.hut.fi NNTP-Posting-Host: mu.tky.hut.fi X-Trace: nntp.hut.fi 908613715 4017 130.233.19.3 (17 Oct 1998 08:41:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nntp.hut.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Oct 1998 08:41:55 GMT Mail-Spam-To: never X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed2.funet.fi!130.233.224.42.MISMATCH!nntp.hut.fi!not-for-mail tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) writes: > But "Turix" sounds like Unix, implemented on a Turing machine. :-) Has anyone implemented a C compiler for a Turing machine? After that, it wouldn't be that hard to implement Unix as well... Hannu Rummukainen ###### Message-ID: <3628F20D.1AE1@gazonk.del> Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 15:37:49 -0400 From: "Foobar T. Clown" Reply-To: foobar@gazonk.del Organization: Blurp X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <6vdctf$cpg2@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <361a433b.0@122.122.122.1> <3619d600.14814240@207.207.0.105> <6vlciv$8p06@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <705blm$aem2@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.133.110.49 X-Trace: 17 Oct 1998 15:38:01 -0500, 198.133.110.49 Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ix.netcom.com!zeus.nomos.com!198.133.110.49 Hannu Rummukainen wrote: > > Has anyone implemented a C compiler for a Turing machine? Would that be a compiler that reads a C program as its input and writes a Turing machine as its output? Or would that be a Turing machine that reads a C program from its tape and replaces it with the byte codes for some processor? > After that, it wouldn't be that hard to implement Unix as well... O.K., Here's what I'm picturing. The tape initially contains a description of the entire state of a virtual Unix box -- memory, disks, the works -- followed by a sequence of inputs. After the turning machine halts, the tape contains the new state that the box would be in after processing the given input. It's just a small matter of programming. ###### From: martini@heaven7.snafu.de (Martin Ibert) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 18:47:23 GMT Organization: The Seventh Heaven, Berlin, Germany Lines: 16 Message-ID: <3638b7c2.1656800@news.sky.bln.sub.org> References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607d6e1.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607E8C3.7A387243@danet.com> <3608ad2a.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <360e3845.61739@news.innet.be> <6vdctf$cpg2@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: arezzo.sky.bln.sub.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!fu-berlin.de!unlisys!news.snafu.de!heaven7.snafu.de!news On 6 Oct 1998 15:27:43 GMT, tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) wrote: >FreeBSD has no original Thomson/Ritchie code, for example; does >its ancestry, completely aside from operational issues, make it >more of a Unix than Linux? Yes, I would say it does. For example, your body replaces all cells every seven years or so. So you (assuming you are considerably older than 7 years) probably don't contain a single cell from your original body (the body you had as a new-born baby). Aren't you still the same person, just a later (so to speak) "version" of it? -- Please visit http://www.snafu.de/~martini/ for contact information! ------------------------------------------------------------------- |Blind faith in your leaders, or in anything, will get you killed!| ###### From: Wilson Roberto Afonso Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 19:29:04 -0200 Organization: ZAZ/NutecNet Lines: 14 Message-ID: <3638DE20.2AE9D39@best.com> References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607d6e1.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <3607E8C3.7A387243@danet.com> <3608ad2a.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <360e3845.61739@news.innet.be> <6vdctf$cpg2@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <3638b7c2.1656800@news.sky.bln.sub.org> Reply-To: wilson@best.com NNTP-Posting-Host: buzios.poa.zaz.com.br Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: srv4-poa.nutecnet.com.br 909696545 17461 200.248.149.92 (29 Oct 1998 21:29:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@zaz.com.br NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Oct 1998 21:29:05 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!200.255.253.242!newsfeed.embratel.net.br!news.zaz.com.br!not-for-mail Martin Ibert wrote: > > Yes, I would say it does. For example, your body replaces all cells > every seven years or so. So you (assuming you are considerably older > than 7 years) probably don't contain a single cell from your original > body (the body you had as a new-born baby). > Aren't you still the same person, just a later (so to speak) "version" > of it? That rule does not apply to neurons, and I'd say they do a lot to define one's identity... -Wilson ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. References: <3607c90c.0@news.saqnet.co.uk> <6vdctf$cpg2@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <3638b7c2.1656800@news.sky.bln.sub.org> Organization: Plethora . Net - More Net, Less Spam! X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test62 (21 February 1998) From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Lines: 16 Message-ID: <7nc_1.2861$a6.8820383@ptah.visi.com> Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 05:44:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.166.146.8 X-Trace: ptah.visi.com 909726275 205.166.146.8 (Thu, 29 Oct 1998 23:44:35 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 23:44:35 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail In article <3638b7c2.1656800@news.sky.bln.sub.org>, Martin Ibert wrote: >Yes, I would say it does. For example, your body replaces all cells >every seven years or so. Please, post this kind of thing to alt.folklore.urban, not around here. It's obviously untrue. (Neural tissue doesn't replace so much, and I'm not particularly sure about bones.) -s -- Copyright 1998, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! Seeking interesting programming projects. Not interested in commuting. Visit my new ISP --- More Net, Less Spam! ###### From: Tom E Arnold Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Not a typewriter - old UNIX error messages. Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 22:34:12 -0600 Organization: Born to Raise Eyebrows Lines: 11 Message-ID: <71e3n3$58v@newsops.execpc.com> References: <6vlciv$8p06@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <6vt9em$6bi3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> Reply-To: tomea@execpc.com NNTP-Posting-Host: kashyyyk-2-146.mdm.mke.execpc.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: daily-bugle.newsops.execpc.com 909808163 5407 (None) 169.207.133.84 X-Complaints-To: abuse@execpc.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.sol.net!news.execpc.com!newsfeeds.sol.net!newsops.execpc.com!posts.execpc.com!daily-bugle.newsops.execpc.com!usenet Tom Harrington wrote: > > Maybe if we referred to official "Unix (tm)" products as either Linux- > like systems or BSD-like, depending on personal preference. > Or, for a really long stretch, OS/9 like? -- TEA/ My current neighborhood: http://www.coldspringpark.org My next neighborhood: http://www.geocities.com/athens/acropolis/9361