Message-ID: <3601AA3E.329D@gazonk.del> Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 20:33:02 -0400 From: "Foobar T. Clown" Reply-To: foobar@gazonk.del Organization: Blurp X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTL... References: <905982083@ablelink.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.133.110.49 X-Trace: 17 Sep 1998 20:35:28 -0500, 198.133.110.49 Lines: 27 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-dc.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!ix.netcom.com!zeus.nomos.com!198.133.110.49 Justin Frim wrote: > > Oh yes, right, some other systems could have user-defined > byte lengths... but those are deviant systems! See, "bit" is a > contraction of "BInary digiT". "Byte" is a contraction of "By > eighT" (and I guess the "e" was added to the end because "byt" > just didn't look right?). So a true "byte" should be 8 of whatever > units. From the Jargon File: ["Byte"] was coined by Werner Buchholz in 1956 during the early design phase for the IBM Stretch computer; originally it was described as 1 to 6 bits (typical I/O equipment of the period used 6-bit chunks of information). The move to an 8-bit byte happened in late 1956, and this size was later adopted and promulgated as a standard by the System/360. The word was coined by mutating the word `bite' so it would not be accidentally misspelled as bit. I don't completely agree with the Jargon File because, despite rumors to the contrary, System/360 and System/370 were not the ONLY computers in their time. Other computer manufacturers continued to use seven and nine bit bytes into the 80's. I don't think it really came to mean eight bits until journalists started writing about 8-bit PCs for the masses. Apparently, someone told them that a byte was eight bits, and forgot to add, "on this system." ###### From: "Rick Lugg" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTL... Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 10:53:52 +0200 Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 36 Message-ID: <6tt74m$e8g$1@news2.saix.net> References: <905982083@ablelink.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: qit-prxy-0000.telkom.co.za X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2120.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!news2.saix.net!not-for-mail Justin Frim wrote in message <905982083@ablelink.org>... >CARL.FRIEND@STONEWEB.COM wrote: <> >CM> How long is a "byte"? They vary, you know. The "octet" codifies > >the 8-bit notion, so ko or Mo works nicely. > >Oh yes, right, some other systems could have user-defined byte >lengths... but those are deviant systems! See, "bit" is a contraction >of "BInary digiT". "Byte" is a contraction of "By eighT" (and I guess >the "e" was added to the end because "byt" just didn't look right?). >So a true "byte" should be 8 of whatever units. I haven't come across >any tri-state logic computer, so I think we can all assume the standard >unit is a Binary digiT, aka bit. (I wonder what they called the units >of the ENIAC which was a base-10 system, and if they grouped the units >sort of like how we group 8 bits into a byte...) > <> The NCR 315 range used a 12 bit "slab" and split it as three numeric or two (6-bit) characters. It seemed a pretty efficient solution until 8-bit characters became more common. On the Elliott 4100 we sold in the UK, there was a 24 bit "word". IIRC it could do word level arithmetic or "decimal" arithmetic with 6 x 4bit numeric. The slab and word were the documented names we used throughout NCR for those devices. -- Rick Lugg ###### From: atbowler@thinkage.on.ca (Alan Bowler) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTL... Date: 18 Sep 1998 18:25:11 GMT Organization: Thinkage Ltd. Lines: 10 Message-ID: <6tu8i7$t3a$1@goblin.uunet.ca> References: <905982083@ablelink.org> <3601AA3E.329D@gazonk.del> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.102.11.4 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!atbowler In article <3601AA3E.329D@gazonk.del> foobar@gazonk.del writes: >Justin Frim wrote: > >I don't completely agree with the Jargon File because, despite rumors to >the contrary, System/360 and System/370 were not the ONLY computers in >their time. Other computer manufacturers continued to use seven and >nine bit bytes into the 80's. Minor correction. Other manufacturers are still using nine bit bytes today. The Bull DPS-9000 systems have 9 bit bytes. ###### From: Shez Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTL... Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 22:20:29 +0100 Organization: a thousand miles from home Message-ID: <$cmUGCAd6sA2Ewnw@xerez.demon.co.uk> References: <905982083@ablelink.org> <6tt74m$e8g$1@news2.saix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: xerez.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: xerez.demon.co.uk:193.237.22.174 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 906155242 nnrp-09:4774 NO-IDENT xerez.demon.co.uk:193.237.22.174 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike (32) Trial Version 3.05 Lines: 43 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!btnet-peer!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!xerez.demon.co.uk!Gnus Rick Lugg of The South African Internet Exchange writes: >The NCR 315 range used a 12 bit "slab" and split it as three numeric or two >(6-bit) characters. It seemed a pretty efficient solution until 8-bit >characters became more common. > >On the Elliott 4100 we sold in the UK, there was a 24 bit "word". IIRC it >could do word level arithmetic or "decimal" arithmetic with 6 x 4bit >numeric. Prior to the invention of those damned fiddly lower case characters, Algol 68-R had defined data types based round a 24 bit words that neatly considered bytes to be 6 bits: type BYTES for instance is 4 characters packed in a 24 bit word @ 6 bits / char (64 char character set). The handbook encourages you to use these fiddly data type instead of type STRING ( [1:0]FLEX CHAR) wherever possible on grounds of efficiency. (Bit of a sell out to the real programmer mob if you ask me) BTW having found the jargon file, I've added the story of Mel the REAL real programmer to my website. Quiz: can anyone guess what program the hex border to the page denotes? (it's a 41 byte DOS (Intel) implementation of a UNIX command). The MIT ftp link for the jargon file that is given at the earthspace.net jargon site is out of date BTW. I've added working URLs for both HTML and ftp (text) versions to the hacker's table at my site. (as previously given by another poster) and as determined empirically by me last night. -Shez. -- _________________________________________________________________________ How long before is 'well before' in 'Shake well before using'? _________________________________________________________________________ Email to Gnus will be rejected: if replying by email, address it to Shez. (c)Shez asserts the moral rights of authorship under the Berne Convention Take a break at the Last Stop Cafe at ###### From: Terry Richards Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTL... Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 18:10:59 -0400 Organization: Terry Richards Software Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3602DA73.2D00@idt.net> References: <905982083@ablelink.org> <6tt74m$e8g$1@news2.saix.net> <$cmUGCAd6sA2Ewnw@xerez.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: trs@idt.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-12.ts-10.hp.idt.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-IDT-v5 (WinNT; U) To: Shez Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.clark.net!204.59.152.222!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!news Shez wrote: > > BTW having found the jargon file, I've added the story of Mel the REAL > real programmer to my website. Quiz: can anyone guess what program the > hex border to the page denotes? (it's a 41 byte DOS (Intel) > implementation of a UNIX command). > > That link is broken -- Terry Richards Terry Richards Software ###### From: Shez Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTL... Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 00:12:11 +0100 Organization: a thousand miles from home Message-ID: References: <905982083@ablelink.org> <6tt74m$e8g$1@news2.saix.net> <$cmUGCAd6sA2Ewnw@xerez.demon.co.uk> <3602DA73.2D00@idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: xerez.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: xerez.demon.co.uk:193.237.22.174 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 906160446 nnrp-06:29327 NO-IDENT xerez.demon.co.uk:193.237.22.174 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike (32) Trial Version 3.05 Lines: 22 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!btnet-peer!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!xerez.demon.co.uk!Gnus Terry Richards of Terry Richards Software writes: >Shez wrote: > > BTW having found the jargon file, I've added the story of Mel the > > real programmer to my website. Quiz: can anyone guess what program >the > > hex border to the page denotes? (it's a 41 byte DOS (Intel) > > implementation of a UNIX command). > > > >That link is broken Whoops, forgot to upload the site updates. Try now. Shez. -- _________________________________________________________________________ How long before is 'well before' in 'Shake well before using'? _________________________________________________________________________ Email to Gnus will be rejected: if replying by email, address it to Shez. (c)Shez asserts the moral rights of authorship under the Berne Convention Take a break at the Last Stop Cafe at ###### From: colincampbell@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTL... Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 21:02:37 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 28 Message-ID: <6u165c$9oj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <905982083@ablelink.org> <6tt74m$e8g$1@news2.saix.net> <$cmUGCAd6sA2Ewnw@xerez.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 139.142.50.74 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Sep 19 21:02:37 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.06 [en] (Win95; I ;Nav) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x2.dejanews.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 139.142.50.74 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.enteract.com!netnews.com!news.idt.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!204.238.120.130!news-feeds.jump.net!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail In article <$cmUGCAd6sA2Ewnw@xerez.demon.co.uk>, Shez wrote: > Rick Lugg of The South African Internet > Exchange writes: > >The NCR 315 range used a 12 bit "slab" and split it as three numeric or two > >(6-bit) characters. It seemed a pretty efficient solution until 8-bit > >characters became more common. > > > >On the Elliott 4100 we sold in the UK, there was a 24 bit "word". IIRC it > >could do word level arithmetic or "decimal" arithmetic with 6 x 4bit > >numeric. > > Prior to the invention of those damned fiddly lower case characters, > Algol 68-R had defined data types based round a 24 bit words that neatly > considered bytes to be 6 bits: type BYTES for instance is 4 characters > packed in a 24 bit word @ 6 bits / char (64 char character set). The > handbook encourages you to use these fiddly data type instead of type > STRING ( [1:0]FLEX CHAR) wherever possible on grounds of efficiency. > (Bit of a sell out to the real programmer mob if you ask me) ISTR that Sperry mainframes used a 36 bit word split into 6 x 6 bits of FIELDATA _or_ 4x9 bits of "ASCII" (dunno what the ninth bit was about, though I have my suspicions, based on the way some of my runs performed!) Database designers working in MAPPER had the option of storing data in either character set depending on efficiency of record length -- Ecc. 12:13-14 -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum ###### From: jnickelsen@acm.org (Juergen Nickelsen) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTL... Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:09:40 +0200 Organization: [Posted via] Interactive Networx Message-ID: <1dfmtt1.1fcdj4nx47mxaN@n35-38.berlin.snafu.de> References: <6s2ati$br6$1@newshost.comnet.co.nz> <35E4D93C.6335@cbr.dwr.csiro.au.NOSPAM> <487f73d505ezral@argonet.co.uk>

<35fdcd85.195763623@news.cyberport.com> <905812985@ablelink.org> <35fe78c4.0@news.iglou.com> <6tm2oh$pn4$1@agate.berkeley.edu> <35FED25A.C001D7FC@erols.com> <905982083@ablelink.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: n35-38.berlin.snafu.de X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.3.3 Lines: 12 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news-hh.maz.net!unlisys!news.snafu.de!jnickelsen Justin Frim wrote: > "Byte" is a contraction of "By eighT" (and I guess the "e" was added to > the end because "byt" just didn't look right?). So a true "byte" should be > 8 of whatever units. Can you give any references for the "By eighT" part? That would surely add something new to the (at least) perennial discussion of "how many bits are in one byte." -- Juergen Nickelsen ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: linley@netcom.com (Bruce James Robert Linley) Subject: Re: YKYBHTL... Message-ID: Organization: Megami no Belldandy-sama no deshi References: <35FED25A.C001D7FC@erols.com> <905982083@ablelink.org> <1dfmtt1.1fcdj4nx47mxaN@n35-38.berlin.snafu.de> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 01:42:53 GMT Lines: 43 Sender: linley@netcom12.netcom.com Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!ubnnews.unisource.ch!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newsfeed.mad.ibernet.es!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!ix.netcom.com!linley In ye olden post jnickelsen@acm.org (Juergen Nickelsen) spake... >Justin Frim wrote: > >> "Byte" is a contraction of "By eighT" (and I guess the "e" was added to >> the end because "byt" just didn't look right?). So a true "byte" should be >> 8 of whatever units. > >Can you give any references for the "By eighT" part? That would surely >add something new to the (at least) perennial discussion of "how many >bits are in one byte." I think not. Some names are based on the number of bits, others on a silly grade of eating synonyms. Bit, nybble, byte for 1, 4, and 8 bits. Nickles and Deckles for 5 and 10 bits. (mostly obsolete) I think byte came from bite for a "bite sized chunk of data" And then there's the infamous "word" where disagreement rages on. Is it 16 bits or is it 32 bits [1] (16 being a half-word). As far as where the name "word" originated. I'm not sure. Assuming one spells in ASCII, 4 bytes (8th bit for parity or unused) can't hold the bulk of words, in the English language anyway. I think 5 lettered words outnumber words of any other length. But 40 bits would make for an oddball sized chunk of data to deal with, for the more common CPUs at least. What is 64 bits called? A double word? A Quad word? [1] The answer, of course, is that a word is composed of 32 bits. :) IMO, standardized names are needed for units of 16, 32, 64 ... numbers of bits just as bit, nybble, and byte have largely come to universally mean 1, 4, and 8 bits. Saying a word is 16 bits on intel architecture and 32 bits on Motorola architecture and 666 bits on Luciferic architecture is unacceptable and needs to be settled once and for all. -- Bruce James Robert Linley | +---+---+--_ | "Tea is always bitter... but linley@netcom.com | | |NV | UT | blood is warm and sweet." Programmer, Fortunet Inc. | \ CA \ |___ | Las Vegas, Nevada, USA ----------> \*| AZ | - Miyu ###### From: William.Hamblen@nashville.com (William Hamblen) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTL... Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 02:57:00 GMT Organization: Utterly Disorganized Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3607c037.2229899@news.nashville.com> References: <35FED25A.C001D7FC@erols.com> <905982083@ablelink.org> <1dfmtt1.1fcdj4nx47mxaN@n35-38.berlin.snafu.de> Reply-To: William.Hamblen@nashville.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.65.180.159 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 906346883 4TJCV727NB49FCF41C usenet78.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!ubnnews.unisource.ch!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newsfeed.mad.ibernet.es!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!peerfeed.ncal.verio.net!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 01:42:53 GMT, linley@netcom.com (Bruce James Robert Linley) wrote: >What is 64 bits called? A double word? A Quad word? > >[1] The answer, of course, is that a word is composed of 32 bits. :) > IMO, standardized names are needed for units of 16, 32, 64 ... > numbers of bits just as bit, nybble, and byte have largely > come to universally mean 1, 4, and 8 bits. Saying a word is 16 bits > on intel architecture and 32 bits on Motorola architecture and 666 > bits on Luciferic architecture is unacceptable and needs to be > settled once and for all. Of course, Motorola MC68000 assembly language calls 16 bits a word (.w) and 32 bits a long (.l). A word is what the manufacturer of the hardware [2] calls it. [2] Or Humpty-Dumpty. ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTL... Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:41:13 -0400 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 79 Message-ID: <3605BCC9.4CF9278E@stoneweb.com> References: <35FED25A.C001D7FC@erols.com> <905982083@ablelink.org> <1dfmtt1.1fcdj4nx47mxaN@n35-38.berlin.snafu.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: zephyr.ultranet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 21 Sep 1998 02:41:19 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.ultranet.com!not-for-mail Bruce James Robert Linley wrote: > > And then there's the infamous "word" where disagreement rages on. Is > it 16 bits or is it 32 bits [1] (16 being a half-word). Nope. A "word" is the number of bits that the CPU data paths (the ALU) can process, conveniently, in a single shot. Multiple precision usually involves multiple words. Hence, a PDP-10 has a 36-bit word, a DG Nova a 16-bit word, a Packard Bell 250 a 22 bit word, an 8080 an 8-bit word. Others were (and may still be) used. CDC machines, IIRC, used 60-bit words. > As far as where the name "word" originated. I'm not sure. Any hints from our old-timers here? I, too, am curious. > Assuming one spells in ASCII, 4 bytes (8th bit for parity or > unused) can't hold the bulk of words, in the English language > anyway. I think 5 lettered words outnumber words of any other > length. Text formatting was not one of the original purposes of computers; they were much more likely to be used for mathematical purposes, in which case a wide word-width meant you could minimise the amount of multiple precision work you needed to do. > But 40 bits would make for an oddball sized chunk of data to deal > with, for the more common CPUs at least. Insert the word "now" just before the period for best effect. The "standardisation" on the 8-bit "byte" is reasonably new. As far as I can remember, a "nybble" (also nibble) has pretty much always been one-half of a byte (and from what I've seen, only 8-bit bytes at that) and came into use in the late '60s or early '70s with mini- computers. > What is 64 bits called? A double word? A Quad word? What's the width of your ALU? Note that this, too, can be somewhat misleading, depending on the marketing context. Take, for instance, the Interdata Model 3 and 4, which were produced in substantial numbers in the late '60s. Those machines called a 16-bit quantity a "halfword" (to fall into line with the IBM S/360 which their assembler codes were based on). The thing to note here is that the Model 4 had a 16-bit ALU and the Model 3 an 8-bit ALU, but the convention (from a programming standpoint) was to call 16 bits a "half" word. Go figure. In the "purest" sense, the Model 3 (in this case) is an 8-bit word machine (though the programmer never saw it as it emulated a larger machine) and the Model 4 a 16-bit machine. > [1] The answer, of course, is that a word is composed of 32 bits. :) > IMO, standardized names are needed for units of 16, 32, 64 ... > numbers of bits just as bit, nybble, and byte have largely > come to universally mean 1, 4, and 8 bits. Saying a word is 16 > bits on intel architecture and 32 bits on Motorola architecture > and 666 bits on Luciferic architecture is unacceptable and needs > to be settled once and for all. (The smiley is noted.) What does one do with historic hardware, the bit-widths of which could be truly staggering? For one, I'm glad we're seeing a return to wide word-widths; it's very nice to see wide words making a comeback after so long. As far as I care, the "word width" of the machine will always be how wide its ALU is. Your mileage, of course, may vary. -- ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| ###### From: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTL... Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 02:01:27 -0400 Organization: Kettering University (formerly GMI E&MI) - Flint MI Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <35FED25A.C001D7FC@erols.com> <905982083@ablelink.org> <1dfmtt1.1fcdj4nx47mxaN@n35-38.berlin.snafu.de> <3605BCC9.4CF9278E@stoneweb.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: nova.kettering.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: <3605BCC9.4CF9278E@stoneweb.com> Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!24.130.1.14!lsnws01.we.mediaone.net!24.131.1.12!denws01.mw.mediaone.net!news.gmi.edu!nova.kettering.edu!lee1089 On Sun, 20 Sep 1998, Carl R. Friend wrote: > Bruce James Robert Linley wrote: > > > > And then there's the infamous "word" where disagreement rages on. Is > > it 16 bits or is it 32 bits [1] (16 being a half-word). > > Nope. A "word" is the number of bits that the CPU data paths (the > ALU) can process, conveniently, in a single shot. Multiple precision > usually involves multiple words. > > Hence, a PDP-10 has a 36-bit word, a DG Nova a 16-bit word, a > Packard Bell 250 a 22 bit word, an 8080 an 8-bit word. Others were > (and may still be) used. CDC machines, IIRC, used 60-bit words. Ah, but the Motorola 68000 series had 16 bit words even though they had 32 bit ALUs. 32 bit quantities were called long words and 64 bits were quad words. Basically, a word is whatever the manufacturer deems it to be. Although that is usually the ALU or data bus size. (The 68000 had a 16 bit data bus but the others in the family had 32 bit busses. So words can also be based on the ALU or bus size of an older member of the family.) ____________________________________________________________________________ | "A little nonsense now and then, | "If it walks out of the fridge, let Is relished by the wisest men." | it go" -- John Dougherty --W.W. | "If it loves you it will come back." | -- Ian Davis __________________________________|_________________________________________ ###### Message-ID: <36066084.6357@gazonk.del> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:19:48 -0400 From: "Foobar T. Clown" Reply-To: foobar@gazonk.del Organization: Blurp X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTL... References: <35FED25A.C001D7FC@erols.com> <905982083@ablelink.org> <1dfmtt1.1fcdj4nx47mxaN@n35-38.berlin.snafu.de> <3605BCC9.4CF9278E@stoneweb.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.133.110.49 X-Trace: 21 Sep 1998 10:22:19 -0500, 198.133.110.49 Lines: 12 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!bullseye.news.demon.net!demon!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!zeus.nomos.com!198.133.110.49 Carl R. Friend wrote: > > Hence, a PDP-10 has a 36-bit word, a DG Nova a 16-bit word, a > Packard Bell 250 a 22 bit word, an 8080 an 8-bit word. Others were > (and may still be) used. CDC machines, IIRC, used 60-bit words. And a PDP-15 had an 18 bit word, and a PDP-8 had a 12 bit word, and PIC microprocessors have a 14 bit or 12 bit instruction words, and an H.P. saturn has a 4 bit data word, and an IBM 1401 word consisted of an arbitrary number of six bit bytes. I don't doubt there's many other examples. ###### Date: 21 Sep 98 15:22:08 -0800 From: "Charlie Gibbs" Subject: Re: YKYBHTL... References: <1dfmtt1.1fcdj4nx47mxaN@n35-38.berlin.snafu.de> <3605BCC9.4CF9278E@stoneweb.com> Message-ID: <552.568T423T9223396@sky.bus.com> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Lines: 14 X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) NNTP-Posting-Host: news.skybus.com Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!204.244.4.2!news.westel.com!news.skybus.com!204.244.247.118 In article linley@netcom.com (Bruce James Robert Linley) writes: >[2] Considering the layered nature of and backward compatibility > built into x86/Pentium architecture, this line of processors > must therefore be considered "historical hardware". This allows > it's 16 bit chunks to continue to be called "words" in the new > world order. :) ... and its little-endian architecture to be the new word order. :-) -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: linley@netcom.com (Bruce James Robert Linley) Subject: Re: YKYBHTL... Message-ID: Organization: Megami no Belldandy-sama no deshi References: <1dfmtt1.1fcdj4nx47mxaN@n35-38.berlin.snafu.de> <3605BCC9.4CF9278E@stoneweb.com> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 16:08:33 GMT Lines: 35 Sender: linley@netcom11.netcom.com Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!linley In ye olden post "Carl R. Friend" spake... >Bruce James Robert Linley wrote: > >> [1] The answer, of course, is that a word is composed of 32 bits. :) >> IMO, standardized names are needed for units of 16, 32, 64 ... >> numbers of bits just as bit, nybble, and byte have largely >> come to universally mean 1, 4, and 8 bits. Saying a word is 16 >> bits on intel architecture and 32 bits on Motorola architecture >> and 666 bits on Luciferic architecture is unacceptable and needs >> to be settled once and for all. > > (The smiley is noted.) > > What does one do with historic hardware, the bit-widths of which >could be truly staggering? For one, I'm glad we're seeing a return >to wide word-widths; it's very nice to see wide words making a >comeback after so long. I have no objection to wider data paths. I just don't think that the term "word" should expand/shrink to fit the data path du jour. It is beneficial to be able to discuss bits and bytes and words, etc. in an academic setting and have everyone know what size things are independent of vendor specific hardware. This would be a Good Thing, IMO. Historic hardware will always be a special case [2]. Just my $0.02. [2] Considering the layered nature of and backward compatibility built into x86/Pentium architecture, this line of processors must therefore be considered "historical hardware". This allows it's 16 bit chunks to continue to be called "words" in the new world order. :) -- Bruce James Robert Linley | +---+---+--_ | "Tea is always bitter... but linley@netcom.com | | |NV | UT | blood is warm and sweet." Programmer, Fortunet Inc. | \ CA \ |___ | Las Vegas, Nevada, USA ----------> \*| AZ | - Miyu ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTL... Date: 21 Sep 1998 20:23:00 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 50 Message-ID: References: <35FED25A.C001D7FC@erols.com> <905982083@ablelink.org> <1dfmtt1.1fcdj4nx47mxaN@n35-38.berlin.snafu.de> <3605BCC9.4CF9278E@stoneweb.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 writes: > > On Sun, 20 Sep 1998, Carl R. Friend wrote: > > > Hence, a PDP-10 has a 36-bit word, a DG Nova a 16-bit word, a > > Packard Bell 250 a 22 bit word, an 8080 an 8-bit word. Others were > > (and may still be) used. CDC machines, IIRC, used 60-bit words. > > Ah, but the Motorola 68000 series had 16 bit words even though they had > 32 bit ALUs. Error. 680[01]0 have 16bit ALUs (actually entirely 16bit data paths (data lines, ALU, registers) at mirocode engine level). Only the instruction set was "32bit" (actually 16bit opcodes, 8/16/32bit operands, 32bit registers). The 680[2...]0 then use 32bit data paths to fit the 32bit registers of the instruction set. Yes the same trick as some of the small vs larger 360s. Question: did any of the VAXen use 16bit microarchitectures? > 32 bit quantities were called long words and 64 bits were > quad words. Basically, a word is whatever the manufacturer deems it > to be. That one is true. Motorola calles word=16bit. > Although that is usually the ALU or data bus size. (The 68000 had a 16 bit > data bus but the others in the family had 32 bit busses. So words can also > be based on the ALU or bus size of an older member of the family.) Or on the whims of the marketing department or the bosses shoe size divided by 3.14159 and that subtracted from 42. But technically a word ist the "natural" operand size of the machine. The 68k should therefore be word=32bit, but the marketroids most likely did not find an cute term for 16bits, so the bastardised the technical notation. -- home: neil@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~neil/ work: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ Microsoft is Software Communism, Fight for GNU Freedom! ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTL... Date: 21 Sep 1998 20:31:55 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <1dfmtt1.1fcdj4nx47mxaN@n35-38.berlin.snafu.de> <3605BCC9.4CF9278E@stoneweb.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 linley@netcom.com (Bruce James Robert Linley) writes: > > In ye olden post "Carl R. Friend" spake... > > > > What does one do with historic hardware, the bit-widths of which > >could be truly staggering? For one, I'm glad we're seeing a return > >to wide word-widths; it's very nice to see wide words making a > >comeback after so long. > > I have no objection to wider data paths. I just don't think that the > term "word" should expand/shrink to fit the data path du jour. It is > beneficial to be able to discuss bits and bytes and words, etc. in > an academic setting and have everyone know what size things are > independent of vendor specific hardware. This would be a Good Thing, IMO. Bit = 1 (that one is stable :-)) Octet = 8 (so are these :-)) BiOctet = 16 QuadOctet = 32 OctoOctet = 64. Sedec(sp?)Octet = 128 Nybble = smaller than Byte Byte = nice part of Word Word = what the machine does "Academic" constancy (more likely bookkeeperisch mentality) and flexibility both provided. And 100% backwards compatible :-). > Historic hardware will always be a special case [2]. Just my $0.02. Why an special case? They just cause bugs. Costs more than you are paying. -- home: neil@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~neil/ work: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ Microsoft is Software Communism, Fight for GNU Freedom! ###### From: atbowler@thinkage.on.ca (Alan Bowler) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTL... Date: 22 Sep 1998 19:05:29 GMT Organization: Thinkage Ltd. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <6u8sdp$eq5$1@nntp3.uunet.ca> References: <1dfmtt1.1fcdj4nx47mxaN@n35-38.berlin.snafu.de> <3605BCC9.4CF9278E@stoneweb.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.102.11.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cyclone.news.idirect.com!island.idirect.com!news.uunet.ca!atbowler In article <3605BCC9.4CF9278E@stoneweb.com> "Carl R. Friend" writes: > > Hence, a PDP-10 has a 36-bit word, a DG Nova a 16-bit word, a >Packard Bell 250 a 22 bit word, an 8080 an 8-bit word. Others were >(and may still be) used. CDC machines, IIRC, used 60-bit words. > >> As far as where the name "word" originated. I'm not sure. > > Any hints from our old-timers here? I, too, am curious. The term originated at a time when the common architectures (IBM 700 and 7000 series, Univac and GE ) all had a 36 bit word as the standard addressable unit. (1 instruction = 1 word = 1 operand). This would hold six six-bit characters of text data. I had always assumed that the use of the term "word" came about because it describes about the amount of text data that could be held. I.e. in normal English text the average word length is about 5 characters add one for spaces between words and you get 6. I.e. in 2000 machine words you would store about 2000 words of English text. It made a convenient mental reference when you talked about storage capacities. ###### From: justin.frim@ablelink.org (Justin Frim) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTL... Message-ID: <906521341@ablelink.org> Organization: Ability Online Support Network Lines: 17 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 02:27:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.146.155.2 X-Complaints-To: abuse@netcom.ca X-Trace: tor-nn1.netcom.ca 906523313 209.146.155.2 (Wed, 23 Sep 1998 00:01:53 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 00:01:53 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!tor-nn1.netcom.ca.POSTED!ntserv1!justin.frim JNICKELSEN@ACM.ORG wrote: JG>Can you give any references for the "By eighT" part? That would surely >add something new to the (at least) perennial discussion of "how many >bits are in one byte." Some book I read a long time ago in my high school library... I don't remember... sorry, it's just one of those things your brain hears (or reads), and even though it was a long time ago and just a wee little bit of information it happened to come across, it stored it because it was interesting. :) TTYL, Justin Frim justin.frim@ablelink.org * 1st 2.00 ~ Ability OnLine - Our Teens know how to XPRESS themselves. ###### From: justin.frim@ablelink.org (Justin Frim) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTL... Message-ID: <906521342@ablelink.org> Organization: Ability Online Support Network Lines: 37 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 02:31:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.146.155.2 X-Complaints-To: abuse@netcom.ca X-Trace: tor-nn1.netcom.ca 906523313 209.146.155.2 (Wed, 23 Sep 1998 00:01:53 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 00:01:53 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!tor-nn1.netcom.ca.POSTED!ntserv1!justin.frim LINLEY@NETCOM.COM wrote: LM>And then there's the infamous "word" where disagreement rages on. Is >it 16 bits or is it 32 bits [1] (16 being a half-word). As far as >where the name "word" originated. I'm not sure. Assuming one spells >in ASCII, 4 bytes (8th bit for parity or unused) can't hold the bulk >of words, in the English language anyway. I think 5 lettered words >outnumber words of any other length. But 40 bits would make for an >oddball sized chunk of data to deal with, for the more common CPUs >at least. LM>What is 64 bits called? A double word? A Quad word? LM>[1] The answer, of course, is that a word is composed of 32 bits. :) > IMO, standardized names are needed for units of 16, 32, 64 ... > numbers of bits just as bit, nybble, and byte have largely > come to universally mean 1, 4, and 8 bits. Saying a word is 16 bits > on intel architecture and 32 bits on Motorola architecture and 666 > bits on Luciferic architecture is unacceptable and needs to be > settled once and for all. I always thought a "word" was dynamic from system to system, or should I say configuation of a system to configuration of a system! ie. the RS-232c standard defines a word as a single character enclosed by a start bit, 1, 2, or 1.5 stop bit(s), an optional parity bit, and a series of data bits ranging from 5 to 8. And for parallel processing systems and communications ports, I always heard a "word" was the size of a single unit of data that can be transmitted on 1 clock cycle. So if a parallel port had 16 data lines, 1 word was 16 bits, or 2 bytes (assuming a byte is 8 bits). TTYL, Justin Frim justin.frim@ablelink.org * 1st 2.00 ~ Ability OnLine - Toronto Canada - (416) 650-5411 ###### From: raphael@research.canon.com.au Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTL... Date: 23 Sep 1998 09:56:26 GMT Organization: Canon Information Systems Research Australia Lines: 7 Message-ID: <6uagka$65v$1@cass.research.canon.com.au> References: <906521342@ablelink.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: cass.research.canon.com.au X-Trace: cass.research.canon.com.au 906544586 6335 203.12.174.231 (23 Sep 1998 09:56:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@research.canon.com.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Sep 1998 09:56:26 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.syd.connect.com.au!news.research.canon.com.au!not-for-mail In article <906521342@ablelink.org> justin.frim@ablelink.org (Justin Frim) writes: >LINLEY@NETCOM.COM wrote: >LM>What is 64 bits called? A double word? A Quad word? Eight bucks. ;-) ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTL... From: riplin@kcbbs.gen.nz (Richard Plinston) Date: 23 Sep 98 18:37:59 GMT Message-ID: <3298265.67079.20897@kcbbs.gen.nz> References: <906521342@ablelink.org> Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!202.14.100.1!status.gen.nz!kcbbs!riplin > LM>And then there's the infamous "word" where disagreement rages on. Is > >it 16 bits or is it 32 bits [1] (16 being a half-word). As far as > >where the name "word" originated. I'm not sure. Assuming one spells > >in ASCII, 4 bytes (8th bit for parity or unused) can't hold the bulk > >of words, in the English language anyway. I think 5 lettered words > >outnumber words of any other length. But 40 bits would make for an > >oddball sized chunk of data to deal with, for the more common CPUs > >at least. > There were machines with 18bit, 24bit, 36bit, 60bit and other sized 'words'. The 'word' is the natural unit of access for the processor. 'byte' sizes may be 6, 8 or 9bit or whatever is the smallest unit of memory access for the processor (eg using a secondary or character index in the instruction). ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTL... Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 21:00:25 -0400 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 27 Message-ID: <360999A9.45056FF6@stoneweb.com> References: <906521342@ablelink.org> <3298265.67079.20897@kcbbs.gen.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: zephyr.ultranet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 24 Sep 1998 01:00:30 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!209.244.253.199!newsfeed.xcom.net!news.ultranet.com!not-for-mail Richard Plinston wrote: > > There were machines with 18bit, 24bit, 36bit, 60bit and other > sized 'words'. Somehow I suspect that if all of us look long enough, we'll find that there was an example of every conceiveable bit-width built. > The 'word' is the natural unit of access for the processor. 'byte' > sizes may be 6, 8 or 9bit or whatever is the smallest unit of memory > access for the processor (eg using a secondary or character index in > the instruction). This definition breaks in the DG Nova which had the notion of "bytes" (an octet, in fact) but could _only_ fetch 16-bit words from memory. "Byte" access was performed by halfword swapping and masking. Also, in the PDP-10 memory access was by 36-bit word with "bytes" being variable in length from 1-bit to 36-bits. -- ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| ###### From: jnickelsen@acm.org (Juergen Nickelsen) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTL... Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 21:36:02 +0200 Organization: [Posted via] Interactive Networx Lines: 12 Message-ID: <1dfsb3e.jewfh61md8r5dN@[10.0.0.3]> References: <6s2ati$br6$1@newshost.comnet.co.nz> <35E4D93C.6335@cbr.dwr.csiro.au.NOSPAM> <487f73d505ezral@argonet.co.uk>

<35fdcd85.195763623@news.cyberport.com> <905812985@ablelink.org> <35fe78c4.0@news.iglou.com> <6tm2oh$pn4$1@agate.berkeley.edu> <35FED25A.C001D7FC@erols.com> <905982083@ablelink.org> <1dfmtt1.1fcdj4nx47mxaN@n35-38.berlin.snafu.de> <3605BCC9.4CF9278E@stoneweb.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: n247-77.berlin.snafu.de X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.3.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.maz.net!news-hh.maz.net!unlisys!news.snafu.de!jnickelsen Carl R. Friend wrote: > CDC machines, IIRC, used 60-bit words. The older ones did, e. g. the 6600. I was told that the two I took my first programming course on (IIRC a 175 and a 185) had 64-bit words in hardware, but most of the software used the 6600 emulation (or compatibility) and thus utilized only 60 bits. This included at least some of the compilers. -- Juergen Nickelsen