From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Protection, was iMac Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 20:27:03 +0000 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <35EDAA17.666B724B@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <6sfuft$p0k$1@news.latrobe.edu.au> <3298243.83812.15555@kcbbs.gen.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 904768492 nnrp-07:1545 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 21 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Rob Hafernik wrote: > them. They don't want kids bringing in wierd stuff and loading it on the > machines and they don't want their software illegally copied by the > students. This practice is especially prevalent in the k-12 market, I've > seen it a number of times. OTOH if they were running unix/linux systems with the protections set properly, I don't see that this would be a problem. It would also have the advantage of the kids learning about a real os (a reliable one with documentation). IMO inflicting windoze on schoolkids should be seen as a form of child abuse. Seriously though, this is the sort of situation that 'nix was invented for, and is very good at. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Protection, was iMac Date: 2 Sep 1998 22:01:20 GMT Organization: TRIUMF, Canada's National Meson Facility Lines: 34 Message-ID: <6skf7g$7sd$1@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> References: <6sfuft$p0k$1@news.latrobe.edu.au> <3298243.83812.15555@kcbbs.gen.nz> <35EDAA17.666B724B@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: alph02.triumf.ca Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!alph02.triumf.ca!shoppa In article <35EDAA17.666B724B@tnglwood.demon.co.uk>, Robert Billing wrote: >Rob Hafernik wrote: >> them. They don't want kids bringing in wierd stuff and loading it on the >> machines and they don't want their software illegally copied by the >> students. This practice is especially prevalent in the k-12 market, I've >> seen it a number of times. > > OTOH if they were running unix/linux systems with the protections set >properly, I don't see that this would be a problem. The only proper protections for removable media under Unix/Linux are root access to drive only. Ever hear of "setuid" programs ? >It would also have >the advantage of the kids learning about a real os (a reliable one with >documentation). You ever try running a half-dozen "tail /dev/zero"s from a "normal user" account under Unix? >IMO inflicting windoze on schoolkids should be seen as a >form of child abuse. How is inflicting an OS (Unix) that was obsolete in 1973 on them any better? There are lots of robust, reliable OS's out there - but none of them run on PC-clone hardware. ----- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 ###### From: crosby@nag.cs.colorado.edu (Matthew Crosby) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Protection, was iMac Date: 2 Sep 1998 22:43:39 GMT Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder Lines: 10 Message-ID: <6skhmr$g27$1@csnews.cs.colorado.edu> References: <6sfuft$p0k$1@news.latrobe.edu.au> <35EDAA17.666B724B@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <6skf7g$7sd$1@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: nag.cs.colorado.edu Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!199.45.255.100!coop.net!csnews!nag.cs.colorado.edu!crosby In article <6skf7g$7sd$1@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>, Tim Shoppa wrote: >There are lots of robust, reliable OS's out there - but none of them >run on PC-clone hardware. > Oh, come on. Both Plan 9 and QNX run on PC hardware. -- Matthew Crosby crosby@cs.colorado.edu Disclaimer: It was in another country, and besides, the wench is dead. ###### From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Protection, was iMac Date: 4 Sep 1998 18:35:31 GMT Message-ID: <6spbtj$62l$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <6skf7g$7sd$1@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-136.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: irk.zetnet.co.uk 904934131 6229 194.247.40.173 (4 Sep 1998 18:35:31 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Sep 1998 18:35:31 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 13 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1998-09-02 shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca(TimShoppa) said: :>IMO inflicting windoze on schoolkids should be seen as a :>form of child abuse. :How is inflicting an OS (Unix) that was obsolete in 1973 on them :any better? Hell, Tim, any OS is better than no OS... -- Communa (so who's going to say "in my day, we wrote our own" then?) you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... ###### From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Protection, was iMac Date: 4 Sep 1998 18:35:35 GMT Message-ID: <6spbtn$62l$3@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <6skhmr$g27$1@csnews.cs.colorado.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-136.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: irk.zetnet.co.uk 904934135 6229 194.247.40.173 (4 Sep 1998 18:35:35 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Sep 1998 18:35:35 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 30 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1998-09-02 crosby@nag.cs.colorado.edu(MatthewCrosby) said: :Tim Shoppa wrote: :>There are lots of robust, reliable OS's out there - but none of :>them run on PC-clone hardware. :Oh, come on. Both Plan 9 and QNX run on PC hardware. As do VSTa, polyForth/386, Amoeba, NextStep, Chorus, Elate, OK... There are many systems which are perfectly robust and run on PC hardware, and are neither DOS nor Unix. (In fact, Linux isn't Unix either; it's a closely Unix-compatible, POSIX-compliant kernel.) Whether or not Unix is (a) obsolete, (b) technically any good, it's still a hell of a lot better than the pre-installed alternative. But it largely depends what you want to use computers for in the classroom. In terms of OS design, a small system with complete source and a textbook is probably not a bad idea (MMURTL, perhaps, for a more modern paradigm). For "this is what a word processor does/this is what the internet is" lessons, you just need something that will run either of the above; even a DOS machine would do, at a pinch. For market-based skills training, you probably need courses using the systems that are used in industry (Quark XPress for DTP, Word 7 for WP, etc). And for programming, I'd recommend a Unixy system every time, whether for Perl or for C++. -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Protection, was iMac References: <6skhmr$g27$1@csnews.cs.colorado.edu> <6spbtn$62l$3@irk.zetnet.co.uk> Organization: Plethora . Net - More Net, Less Spam! X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test62 (21 February 1998) From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Lines: 18 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 20:32:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.166.146.8 X-Trace: ptah.visi.com 904941138 205.166.146.8 (Fri, 04 Sep 1998 15:32:18 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 15:32:18 CDT Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail In article <6spbtn$62l$3@irk.zetnet.co.uk>, wrote: >There are many systems which are perfectly robust and run on PC >hardware, and are neither DOS nor Unix. (In fact, Linux isn't Unix >either; it's a closely Unix-compatible, POSIX-compliant kernel.) Whether >or not Unix is (a) obsolete, (b) technically any good, it's still a hell >of a lot better than the pre-installed alternative. What's pre-installed about it? I certainly don't sell computers with any of the Microsoft stuff pre-installed. -s -- Copyright 1998, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! Seeking interesting programming projects. Not interested in commuting. Visit my new ISP --- More Net, Less Spam! ###### From: Mike Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Protection, was iMac Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 01:55:06 -0400 Organization: Sentex Communications Lines: 20 Message-ID: <35F0D23A.CEB4AE36@sentex.net> References: <6skf7g$7sd$1@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> <6spbtj$62l$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.245.212.67 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win95; I) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.clark.net!205.252.116.205!howland.erols.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!wesley.videotron.net!news.ott.rns.net!news.rns.net!flint.sentex.net!not-for-mail lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: > > On 1998-09-02 shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca(TimShoppa) said: > :>IMO inflicting windoze on schoolkids should be seen as a > :>form of child abuse. > > :How is inflicting an OS (Unix) that was obsolete in 1973 on them > :any better? > > Hell, Tim, any OS is better than no OS... Even DOS 4.0? --Mike. :) -- As the complexity of chips approaches the | Michael Habicher, 3A EE, IEEE complexity of software, the behaviour | Ontario, Canada of chips approaches the behaviour of | * To unravel my Email address, software. --Moore's Lament | * follow the clue therein. ###### From: Matthias Heidbrink <*NOSPAM*mh@cs.tu-berlin.de> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Protection, was iMac Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 15:46:33 +0100 Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany Lines: 28 Message-ID: <35F14EC9.7A82@cs.tu-berlin.de> References: <6skhmr$g27$1@csnews.cs.colorado.edu> <6spbtn$62l$3@irk.zetnet.co.uk> Reply-To: *NOSPAM*mh@cs.tu-berlin.de NNTP-Posting-Host: mh.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (OS/2; I) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!wuff.mayn.de!unlisys!news.snafu.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!not-for-mail Hi, lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: > On 1998-09-02 crosby@nag.cs.colorado.edu(MatthewCrosby) said: > :Tim Shoppa wrote: > :>There are lots of robust, reliable OS's out there - but none of > :>them run on PC-clone hardware. > > :Oh, come on. Both Plan 9 and QNX run on PC hardware. > > As do VSTa, polyForth/386, Amoeba, NextStep, Chorus, Elate, OK... I wouldn't call NeXTstep robust. I've seen kernel panics quite often, as well with NeXTstep 3.3 on my NeXTstation as with Rhapsody DR2 on a PC. Most of the time it had to do with file system stuff. > And for > programming, I'd recommend a Unixy system every time, whether for Perl > or for C++. I've never seen anything better than Delphi, although I have to suffer using Windows NT to run it. I think that most people who say that the programming language, the compiler and the development environment don't make a large difference have never worked with a really good development environment or on projects of serious size. Ciao, Matthias ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Protection, was iMac Date: 05 Sep 1998 23:13:34 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <6skhmr$g27$1@csnews.cs.colorado.edu> <6spbtn$62l$3@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <35F14EC9.7A82@cs.tu-berlin.de> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Matthias Heidbrink <*NOSPAM*mh@cs.tu-berlin.de> writes: > > I wouldn't call NeXTstep robust. I've seen kernel panics quite often, as > well with NeXTstep 3.3 on my NeXTstation as with Rhapsody DR2 on a PC. > Most of the time it had to do with file system stuff. As an ex NeXTstep user (2.1, 3.0, 3.1, 3.2 on NeXTcube) and prospective Rhapsody user a small experience: I saw exactly 5 kernal panics, all filesystem related, all under 2.1. The first happend after I put in an new (large HD) and the series stopped after I had it replaced by its manufacturer (with same model, never firmware). NeXTstep seems to be intolerant of HDs sporadically failing to deliver. I would advise you to look into trying an other HD. It may stop them panic attacks. -- home: neil@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~neil/ work: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ *** It's true ! I read it on Usenet and the Web ! *** ###### From: Matthias Heidbrink <*NOSPAM*mh@cs.tu-berlin.de> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Protection, was iMac Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 03:11:16 +0100 Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany Message-ID: <35F340C4.2D18@cs.tu-berlin.de> References: <6skhmr$g27$1@csnews.cs.colorado.edu> <6spbtn$62l$3@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <35F14EC9.7A82@cs.tu-berlin.de> Reply-To: *NOSPAM*mh@cs.tu-berlin.de NNTP-Posting-Host: mh.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (OS/2; I) Lines: 35 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!netnews.globalip.ch!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news-hh.maz.net!unlisys!news.snafu.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!not-for-mail Hi Neil, Neil Franklin wrote: > > I wouldn't call NeXTstep robust. I've seen kernel panics quite often, as > > well with NeXTstep 3.3 on my NeXTstation as with Rhapsody DR2 on a PC. > > Most of the time it had to do with file system stuff. > I would advise you to look into trying an other HD. It may stop them > panic attacks. No, that was definitely not the problem. On the NeXTstation, I build in another hard disk for which I had to create a disktab entry. At first I took a block size or something like that in the legal range, but different from the default. mkfs said that everything was OK, but every try to write onto this disk caused a kernel panic. Afer I tried nearly everything I could, I reformatted the whole drive with a changed disktab entry with the default block size. I never had such problems again. I have Rhapsody DR2 on my PC. I once tried to write a floppy disk image, but it didn't work and the file system on the disk seemed to be quite mixed-up. Accessing this floppy disk caused some error messages and also caused a kernel panic, but not immediately, but a short time later when I tried to do something on the hard disk. NeXTstep/Rhapsody is a very beautyful system, the only UNIX-like system which I would give to "ordinary" users. But unfortunately it is far from being as stable as other UNIX systems. But I have also seen kernel panics and crashes on all other computer systems with which I have worked for some time. OS/2, NT, BSD, Solaris, ... Ciao, Matthias ###### From: Matthias Heidbrink <*NOSPAM*mh@cs.tu-berlin.de> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Protection, was iMac Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 03:11:36 +0100 Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany Lines: 35 Message-ID: <35F340D8.76A8@cs.tu-berlin.de> References: <6skhmr$g27$1@csnews.cs.colorado.edu> <6spbtn$62l$3@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <35F14EC9.7A82@cs.tu-berlin.de> Reply-To: *NOSPAM*mh@cs.tu-berlin.de NNTP-Posting-Host: mh.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (OS/2; I) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!cs.tu-berlin.de!not-for-mail Hi Neil, Neil Franklin wrote: > > I wouldn't call NeXTstep robust. I've seen kernel panics quite often, as > > well with NeXTstep 3.3 on my NeXTstation as with Rhapsody DR2 on a PC. > > Most of the time it had to do with file system stuff. > I would advise you to look into trying an other HD. It may stop them > panic attacks. No, that was definitely not the problem. On the NeXTstation, I build in another hard disk for which I had to create a disktab entry. At first I took a block size or something like that in the legal range, but different from the default. mkfs said that everything was OK, but every try to write onto this disk caused a kernel panic. Afer I tried nearly everything I could, I reformatted the whole drive with a changed disktab entry with the default block size. I never had such problems again. I have Rhapsody DR2 on my PC. I once tried to write a floppy disk image, but it didn't work and the file system on the disk seemed to be quite mixed-up. Accessing this floppy disk caused some error messages and also caused a kernel panic, but not immediately, but a short time later when I tried to do something on the hard disk. NeXTstep/Rhapsody is a very beautyful system, the only UNIX-like system which I would give to "ordinary" users. But unfortunately it is far from being as stable as other UNIX systems. But I have also seen kernel panics and crashes on all other computer systems with which I have worked for some time. OS/2, NT, BSD, Solaris, ... Ciao, Matthias