From: shokwave@well.com (Rob Hafernik)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Industrial design in computers
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:14:46 -0600
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The introduction of the iMac has me thinking about industrial design as it
relates to computers.  I never thought much about the original Mac design
(despite the awards it won), because the screen was plainly too small and
that just ruined it for me.

There have been lots of interesting designs over the years however, and
I'd be interested to hear about ones I haven't seen.  Perhaps folks will
be able to post URLs of pictures...

The iMac, by the way, is a pretty nice design, IMHO.  Throwing aside
considerations of operating systems, CPU speed and so on, I think the
industrial design is pretty sharp.  It has covers for the cable ports to
make them look neater.  The footprint is small, the look is sleek and it's
got very decent speakers.  It even has TWO headphone jacks (on the front),
because schools often require two students to share a computer.  The
all-in-one-case is too limiting for serious power users, but outta be just
fine for schools and college students and so on.  The keyboard and mouse
LOOKED fine, but were a little cramped.  On the other hand, they might fit
kids' hands quite well.

Since I have to stare at computers all day long, I appreciate a company
that works to make this more pleasant.  Do you think industrial design
leads to better sales for a given computer?  I wonder, because computers
in business are so often bought by people looking a spec sheets rather
than the actual boxes.  If design really does matter, why do most
computers look so crappy?

######

From: mww@microfocus.com (Michael Wojcik)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 19 Aug 1998 17:02:08 GMT
Organization: Micro Focus Inc.
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In article <shokwave-1908981114460001@as1-dialup-68.io.com>, shokwave@well.com (Rob Hafernik) writes:
> [re iMac]
> 
> Since I have to stare at computers all day long, I appreciate a company
> that works to make this more pleasant.  Do you think industrial design
> leads to better sales for a given computer?  I wonder, because computers
> in business are so often bought by people looking a spec sheets rather
> than the actual boxes.  If design really does matter, why do most
> computers look so crappy?

Personally, I prefer computers that look "crappy", or what I'm
assuming you'd consider crappy - boxy and beige - and I don't care
for the iMac's appearance at all.  Books, plants, furniture I like
pretty.  Appliances and other mechanisms I like plain.

On the other hand, I wouldn't let a pretty case turn my head when
making a purchase, at least in itself.  All too often, though, when
PC makers elect to stand up for aesthetics they forget the most basic
principles of usability.  Not long ago in this group I noted some of
the design flaws in the Dell machines we recently purchased; they
have lovely (well, I'm sure someone at Dell thought they were lovely)
curved bezels for the floppy drives but the pushbutton power and
reset switches are sitting unprotected on the front of the case right
below the CD-ROM's eject button.  Then there was a recent review of
monitors in some trade rag that complained that the IBM entry had an
"old-fashioned" case with squared-off corners.  I *like* square
corners on my monitor case; they help keep the papers I stack on top
of the thing from sliding off.

The Sun "pizza box" case was a similar mistake - bloated the desktop
footprint way up.

I think pretty probably does help sell computers.  It shouldn't be
equated with "design", though; design encompasses a lot more than
appearance (or aesthetics at large).


Michael Wojcik						mww@microfocus.com
AAI Development, Micro Focus Inc.
Department of English, Miami University

He smiled and let his gaze fall to hers, so that her cheek began to
glow.  Ecstatically she waited until his mouth slowly neared her own.
She knew only one thing: rdoeniadtrgove niardgoverdgovnrdgog.
-- Badische Presse

######

From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 19 Aug 1998 18:54:55 GMT
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Rob Hafernik (shokwave@well.com) writes:
> 
> Since I have to stare at computers all day long, I appreciate a company
> that works to make this more pleasant.  Do you think industrial design
> leads to better sales for a given computer?  I wonder, because computers
> in business are so often bought by people looking a spec sheets rather
> than the actual boxes.  If design really does matter, why do most
> computers look so crappy?

  Well, the System 360 line was a fairly nice design IMHO.  In those days
  the big iron was often put on display behind glass.  Having the cabling
  under a raised floor cleaned the "look" up quite a bit.  And Hollywood
  loved all those flashing lights on the main console.

######

From: writer1@Eng.Sun.COM (Bob Morrisette)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 19 Aug 1998 19:47:04 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc.
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In article 1908981114460001@as1-dialup-68.io.com, shokwave@well.com (Rob Hafernik) writes:
> The introduction of the iMac has me thinking about industrial design as it
> relates to computers.  I never thought much about the original Mac design
> (despite the awards it won), because the screen was plainly too small and
> that just ruined it for me.
> 
> There have been lots of interesting designs over the years however, and
> I'd be interested to hear about ones I haven't seen.  Perhaps folks will
> be able to post URLs of pictures...
> 
> The iMac, by the way, is a pretty nice design, IMHO.  Throwing aside
> considerations of operating systems, CPU speed and so on, I think the
> industrial design is pretty sharp.  It has covers for the cable ports to
> make them look neater.  The footprint is small, the look is sleek and it's
> got very decent speakers.  It even has TWO headphone jacks (on the front),
> because schools often require two students to share a computer.  The
> all-in-one-case is too limiting for serious power users, but outta be just
> fine for schools and college students and so on.  The keyboard and mouse
> LOOKED fine, but were a little cramped.  On the other hand, they might fit
> kids' hands quite well.
> 
> Since I have to stare at computers all day long, I appreciate a company
> that works to make this more pleasant.  Do you think industrial design
> leads to better sales for a given computer?  I wonder, because computers
> in business are so often bought by people looking a spec sheets rather
> than the actual boxes.  If design really does matter, why do most
> computers look so crappy?

The coolest design I've seen lately is the Toshiba Equium. It has a door
that lets you slide out the motherboard and work on it or replace
it in 30 seconds. It's designed to be a desktop or tower machine.
Nice lines all around.

Bob Morrisette

######

From: <lee1089@kettering.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 19:55:48 -0400
Organization: Kettering University (formerly GMI E&MI) - Flint MI
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On 19 Aug 1998, Bob Morrisette wrote:

> The coolest design I've seen lately is the Toshiba Equium. It has a door
> that lets you slide out the motherboard and work on it or replace
> it in 30 seconds. It's designed to be a desktop or tower machine.
> Nice lines all around.

That sounds like the Perfoma 575 I bought about 5 years ago.

######

From: shokwave@well.com (Rob Hafernik)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 20:23:47 -0600
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<snip>
> Personally, I prefer computers that look "crappy", or what I'm
> assuming you'd consider crappy - boxy and beige - and I don't care
> for the iMac's appearance at all.  Books, plants, furniture I like
> pretty.  Appliances and other mechanisms I like plain.
<snip>

Well, we disagree.  I like EVERYTHING (even a bottle opener or cocktail
shaker) to have good industrial design.

You have to remember, also, that good industrial design is about more than
looks.  It means that the product in question has (in the lingo of the
trade) good affordances.  This means that its use is clear and it works
the way you think it will and it does what it is supposed to.  This is why
I pointed out the twin headphone jacks on the front panel of the iMac. 
Good design.

######

From: Pete Fenelon <pete@fenelon.zetnet.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 20:54:51 +0100
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Rob Hafernik <shokwave@well.com> wrote:

> The iMac, by the way, is a pretty nice design, IMHO.  Throwing aside
> considerations of operating systems, CPU speed and so on, I think the
> industrial design is pretty sharp.  It has covers for the cable ports to
> make them look neater.  The footprint is small, the look is sleek and it's

Haven't seen an iMac in the flesh (plastic?) yet -- but we've just got a G3
minitower at work and it's noticeably a lot better-engineered than any PC
I've ever seen (with the possible exception of the very early IBMs and
Compaqs) -- everything fits beautifully and it feels rock solid. It also
looks nice. SGI are good at that, too.

pete
-- 
Pete Fenelon, 3 Beckside Gardens, York, YO10 3TX, UK (pete.fenelon@zetnet.co.uk)
``there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas'' 

######

From: Pete Fenelon <pete@fenelon.zetnet.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 20:56:06 +0100
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Michael Wojcik <mww@microfocus.com> wrote:
> The Sun "pizza box" case was a similar mistake - bloated the desktop
> footprint way up.

Given that a Sun typically has a ruddy great huge monitor sat on it, or
is in a rack, I don't find the pizzabox to be a problem. My 3/80 is dwarfed
by its monitor -- and it looks a lot better than the 3/50 or 3/60 did :)

pete
-- 
Pete Fenelon, 3 Beckside Gardens, York, YO10 3TX, UK (pete.fenelon@zetnet.co.uk)
``there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas'' 

######

From: jcmorris@mwunix.mitre.org (Joe Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 19 Aug 1998 21:03:59 GMT
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
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ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) writes:

>  Well, the System 360 line was a fairly nice design IMHO.  In those days
>  the big iron was often put on display behind glass.  Having the cabling
>  under a raised floor cleaned the "look" up quite a bit.  

Running the cables below the floor had little to do with esthetics, and
everything to do with practical matters.  If you've ever been in a
facility that installed computers in a room without raised floors (or
trenches) then you know just how difficult it is to move around, because
you're always tripping on the cables.  Also, with the cables running
under the floor they can be run more directly than if they have to
dodge the various boxes.  (The I/O cables for many years were limited
to 200' maximum -- and it's surprisingly easy to reach that limit.)

And the underfloor area also serves in most mainframe shops as the
cold air plenum, with the cold air rising through cutouts under
each of the boxes where the cables pass into the floor.  (It's also
an excellent breeding ground for dust bunnies, although raised floor
vendors seldom advertise the fact.)

Joe Morris

######

From: stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 23:49:48 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
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In article <shokwave-1908981114460001@as1-dialup-68.io.com>,
  shokwave@well.com (Rob Hafernik) wrote:
> The introduction of the iMac has me thinking about industrial design as it
> relates to computers.  I never thought much about the original Mac design
> (despite the awards it won), because the screen was plainly too small and
> that just ruined it for me.
>
> There have been lots of interesting designs over the years however, and
> I'd be interested to hear about ones I haven't seen.  Perhaps folks will
> be able to post URLs of pictures...
>
> The iMac, by the way, is a pretty nice design, IMHO.  Throwing aside
> considerations of operating systems, CPU speed and so on, I think the
> industrial design is pretty sharp.  It has covers for the cable ports to
> make them look neater.  The footprint is small, the look is sleek and it's
> got very decent speakers.  It even has TWO headphone jacks (on the front),
> because schools often require two students to share a computer.  The
> all-in-one-case is too limiting for serious power users, but outta be just
> fine for schools and college students and so on.  The keyboard and mouse
> LOOKED fine, but were a little cramped.  On the other hand, they might fit
> kids' hands quite well.
>
> Since I have to stare at computers all day long, I appreciate a company
> that works to make this more pleasant.  Do you think industrial design
> leads to better sales for a given computer?  I wonder, because computers
> in business are so often bought by people looking a spec sheets rather
> than the actual boxes.  If design really does matter, why do most
> computers look so crappy?
>

Personally, I have a hard time seeing any design for a desktop PC where the
display and cpu box are permanently attached as "nice."  It forces the user
to have the CPU box "in their face" wether they choose to or not.  It also
prevents display upgrades, and requires expensive repairs if the CRT goes
out.  (I see a secondary market ten years from now for attractive overlays to
cover dead iMac displays when they are used with a replacement display- why
does this seem so ugly to me?)	Several PC manufacturers have put out
"integrated" designs of this type in the last few years, and I disliked them
as well.  Corel Computers makes a "net computer" now with that sort of
design, too.  The only thing I like about it (of course) is that it runs
embedded Linux on an ARM processor (and that it's extremely cheap, right now
one of the lowest cost ways to get onto the net).

The DOS/Windows "PC" market degenerated into a "commodity" market (with the
low costs and anarchic quality issues that implies) so many years ago that
most aesthetic considerations have become "extra frills."  People who want a
pretty box can pretty much pay for one if they like.  Someday I'd like to
make a case out of Lego (internally shielded, of course) or hardwood.

If I had my personal choice (and unlimited money) for the "attractive"
computing environment of my choice, I would probably want a newer PowerMac
(does the iMac have fast ethernet?) running MkLinux, connected by fast
ethernet as an X-terminal to a farm of fast Dec Alpha machines hidden in the
next room (guess which OS this is possible with- guess with which ones it's
not).  With a gateway to a cluster of hoary old x86 boxes running Amoeba of
course (money is no object, and we're talking about ultimate toys, right?).


-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum

######

From: stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 23:55:10 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Lines: 27
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In article <6rf71v$ka6@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
  ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) wrote:
>
> Rob Hafernik (shokwave@well.com) writes:
> >
> > Since I have to stare at computers all day long, I appreciate a company
> > that works to make this more pleasant.  Do you think industrial design
> > leads to better sales for a given computer?  I wonder, because computers
> > in business are so often bought by people looking a spec sheets rather
> > than the actual boxes.  If design really does matter, why do most
> > computers look so crappy?
>
>   Well, the System 360 line was a fairly nice design IMHO.  In those days
>   the big iron was often put on display behind glass.  Having the cabling
>   under a raised floor cleaned the "look" up quite a bit.  And Hollywood
>   loved all those flashing lights on the main console.
>
>

I have the matching ashtray for the System 360 (given away as a promotion
when Big Blue was selling that iron).  I also have one of the wooden "Think"
signs put out by IBM in the way-olden-days (late 50's?).  (being an IBM brat
has it's privledges).


-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum

######

From: hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com (Lisa or Jeff)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 20 Aug 1998 02:58:07 GMT
Organization: Net Access BBS
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The early Hollerith machines were made of wood.

IBM machines had Queen Anne legs with gold trim.

The postwar machines were streamlined with a chrome strip.

The 7090 pictures are on the web.

S/360 introduced the geometric design, just like on the orig Star Trek.

Of course, today's IBM boxes look like Sears tool chests--red and black.  I
took a Sears ad from the newspaper and showed it to our AS/400 person
and said to him "hey look, Sears is selling AS/400s".  He looked at it
and initially agreed until he realized they were Sears Toolchests.

######

From: hnsngr@sirius.com (Ron Hunsinger)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 13:09:39 -0700
Organization: ErsteSoft
Lines: 9
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In article <6rfoas$olc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us wrote:

> (I see a secondary market ten years from now for attractive overlays to
> cover dead iMac displays when they are used with a replacement display- why
> does this seem so ugly to me?)

Ten-year-old iMacs will make gorgeous fish tanks. They're even the right color.

-Ron Hunsinger

######

From: shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 20 Aug 1998 13:12:44 GMT
Organization: TRIUMF, Canada's National Meson Facility
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In article <shokwave-1908981114460001@as1-dialup-68.io.com>,
Rob Hafernik <shokwave@well.com> wrote:
>The introduction of the iMac has me thinking about industrial design as it
>relates to computers.  I never thought much about the original Mac design
>(despite the awards it won), because the screen was plainly too small and
>that just ruined it for me.

When thinking about "industrial design", I tend to think not only of
external appearance and functionality, but also of what is inside the
box.  For me, the real winner in efficient design has been Hewlett
Packard; all of their test equipment is both easy to use and easily
serviced.  And the all-time winner has to be HP's early desktop
calculator, the HP9100A/B.  See Dave Hick's "Museum of HP Calculators"
(http://www.teleport.com/~dgh/hpmuseum.html) to see why my HP9100B is
my favorite calculator still :-).

Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca)

######

From: glass2@glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 20 Aug 1998 13:27:10 GMT
Organization: IBM Austin 
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In <6rfokv$p7o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us writes:
>
>I have the matching ashtray for the System 360 (given away as a promotion
>when Big Blue was selling that iron).  I also have one of the wooden "Think"
>signs put out by IBM in the way-olden-days (late 50's?).  (being an IBM brat
>has it's privledges).
>
>
>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum

There was a later series of "Think" signs made out of blue plastic
with the word "Think" imprinted on an aluminium background.  What's
unique is that these signs were available in a variety of languages.
I happen to have one in Arabic.

Dave

P.S. Standard disclaimer: I work for them, but I don't speak for them.

######

From: mww@microfocus.com (Michael Wojcik)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 20 Aug 1998 14:34:04 GMT
Organization: Micro Focus Inc.
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In article <shokwave-1908982023480001@as3-dialup-31.io.com>, shokwave@well.com (Rob Hafernik) writes:
> <snip>
> > Personally, I prefer computers that look "crappy", or what I'm
> > assuming you'd consider crappy - boxy and beige - and I don't care
> > for the iMac's appearance at all.  Books, plants, furniture I like
> > pretty.  Appliances and other mechanisms I like plain.
> <snip>

When quoting, it's considered common courtesy to attribute.

> Well, we disagree.  I like EVERYTHING (even a bottle opener or cocktail
> shaker) to have good industrial design.

I didn't say I didn't want my appliances to have poor design.  I said
I didn't want them to be pretty.

> You have to remember, also, that good industrial design is about more than
> looks.

Precisely the point that most of my post - the part you cut - expounded.
In what sense did I fail to remember this?

> It means that the product in question has (in the lingo of the
> trade) good affordances.

Yes, I've read Norman too.

> This means that its use is clear and it works
> the way you think it will and it does what it is supposed to.  This is why
> I pointed out the twin headphone jacks on the front panel of the iMac. 
> Good design.

Against which we could point out any number of design errors.  No
removable writable media, which discourages users from making
backups.  Display connected to the processor case, which makes
upgrading and spacial arrangement difficult.

Disagreement is fine, but could you please frame your arguments with
what I actually wrote?


Michael Wojcik						mww@microfocus.com
AAI Development, Micro Focus Inc.
Department of English, Miami University

Please enjoy the stereo action fully that will surprise you.
-- Pizzicato Five

######

From: mww@microfocus.com (Michael Wojcik)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 20 Aug 1998 14:37:57 GMT
Organization: Micro Focus Inc.
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In article <6rg3bv$976@netaxs.com>, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com (Lisa or Jeff) writes:
> 
> Of course, today's IBM boxes look like Sears tool chests--red and black.  I
> took a Sears ad from the newspaper and showed it to our AS/400 person
> and said to him "hey look, Sears is selling AS/400s".  He looked at it
> and initially agreed until he realized they were Sears Toolchests.

Our latest 390 is black with a yellow half-column tacked on the front.
A couple of us considered pulling the yellow thing off - it's ungodly
garish - but decided it was probably best not to.  Case modifications
probably void the warantee.


Michael Wojcik						mww@microfocus.com
AAI Development, Micro Focus Inc.
Department of English, Miami University

Viewers are bugs for famous brands.
-- unknown subtitler, Jackie Chan's _Thunderbolt_

######

From: tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 20 Aug 1998 15:37:38 GMT
Organization: Mechanist Industries
Lines: 20
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stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us wrote:
: Corel Computers makes a "net computer" now with that sort of
: design, too.  The only thing I like about it (of course) is that it runs
: embedded Linux on an ARM processor (and that it's extremely cheap, right now
: one of the lowest cost ways to get onto the net).

Interesting.  I had no idea.  I'll have to find more info on this.

: If I had my personal choice (and unlimited money) for the "attractive"
: computing environment of my choice, I would probably want a newer PowerMac
: (does the iMac have fast ethernet?) running MkLinux, connected by fast

Just FYI, yes the iMac has fast ethernet.  But it won't run MkLinux or
LinuxPPC until they get USB support.  The crew at www.linuxppc.org seems
to be attacking the problem enthusiastically.

--
Tom Harrington --------- tph@rmii.com -------- http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph
   "And you may ask yourself, well, how did I get here?" -Talking Heads
Cookie's Revenge: ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/tph/cookie/cookies-revenge.sit.hqx

######

From: spalding@iol.ie (Nick Spalding)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 15:38:06 +0100
Organization: Ireland On-Line
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glass2@glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com wrote:

> There was a later series of "Think" signs made out of blue plastic
> with the word "Think" imprinted on an aluminium background.  What's
> unique is that these signs were available in a variety of languages.
> I happen to have one in Arabic.

I liked the one I saw somewhere, possibly NOT an IBM product, which
read:

Think
  or Thwim

######

From: dpeschel@u.washington.edu (D. Peschel)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 20 Aug 1998 16:39:20 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
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In article <6rhcc5$mqm@news1.newsguy.com>,
Michael Wojcik <mww@microfocus.com> wrote:

>Our latest 390 is black with a yellow half-column tacked on the front.
>A couple of us considered pulling the yellow thing off - it's ungodly
>garish - but decided it was probably best not to.  Case modifications
>probably void the warantee.

Maybe you could put in an RPQ.  (Does IBM still honor RPQ's?)

Of course, most RPQ's are given before the system is built...

[For people reading this thread and saying "Huh?" -- RPQ = Request Price
Quotation (I think) = You tell IBM what you want, they name the price, you
decide if you really want it that badly.  Things like extra instructions in
the CPU and custom paint jobs are/were typical RPQ's.]

-- Derek

######

From: bayko@borealis.cs.uregina.ca (John  Bayko)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 20 Aug 1998 23:05:41 GMT
Organization: University of Regina, Dept. of Computer Science
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <6ria45$pge$1@sue.cc.uregina.ca>
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In article <6rfoas$olc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
    <stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us> wrote:
[...]
>Personally, I have a hard time seeing any design for a desktop PC where the
>display and cpu box are permanently attached as "nice."  It forces the user
>to have the CPU box "in their face" wether they choose to or not.

    For very low cost, user-proof systems, the only way to minimise
pieces is to put the CPU in the same case as either the monitor or the
keyboard, the keyboard option is worse (Amiga? ST?).
    It does tie you to a display. A better option might be to make the
CPU box small enough to 'clip on' to the monitor, making both upgradable
but still eliminating connectors and power cords.

--
John Bayko (Tau).
bayko@cs.uregina.ca
http://www.cs.uregina.ca/~bayko

######

From: hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com (Lisa or Jeff)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 21 Aug 1998 01:55:25 GMT
Organization: Net Access BBS
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> There was a later series of "Think" signs made out of blue plastic
> with the word "Think" imprinted on an aluminium background.  What's
> unique is that these signs were available in a variety of languages.
> I happen to have one in Arabic.

Does IBM still make the signs or use them?  In my last visit to their
offices in Somers NY (beautiful campus BTW) I didn't see any.  At a
trade show, the reps didn't know what I was talking about.

######

From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 21 Aug 1998 02:21:38 GMT
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
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Joe Morris (jcmorris@mwunix.mitre.org) writes:
[snip]> facility that installed computers in a room without raised floors (or
> trenches) then you know just how difficult it is to move around, because
> you're always tripping on the cables.  Also, with the cables running
> under the floor they can be run more directly than if they have to
> dodge the various boxes.  (The I/O cables for many years were limited
> to 200' maximum -- and it's surprisingly easy to reach that limit.)
> 
> And the underfloor area also serves in most mainframe shops as the
> cold air plenum, with the cold air rising through cutouts under
> each of the boxes where the cables pass into the floor.

  Of course I was aware of these considerations.  In my last POE, the
  company whizards decided to shut down the general building A/C, but
  kept the Machine Room A/C running one hot summer long weekend (so that
  us computer sluggards would be able to enhance the revenue stream for
  a badly mismanaged outfit).  The result was pools of water in the 
  underfloor area because the machine room A/C units were drying the air
  for the rest of the building.

  Would you like to lift one of the raised floor tiles and reach into
  that plenum to check or fix a cable?

  It's a miracle noone was killed.

######

From: shokwave@well.com (Rob Hafernik)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 12:32:19 -0600
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<snip>

> Against which we could point out any number of design errors.  No
> removable writable media, which discourages users from making
> backups.  Display connected to the processor case, which makes
> upgrading and spacial arrangement difficult.

Depends on the market.  Schools, for example, kinda LIKE the idea of no
removable media.  Many schools LOCK the floppy drives on computers that
have them.  Ditto for the display: that which is detachable can be lost or
mismatched.  It also goes to cost; one set of molds is cheaper than two,
one power supply cheaper than two.

######

From: ajsulliv@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA (Andrew J. Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 21 Aug 1998 17:14:34 -0400
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.
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In article <6rf0eg$q1k@news1.newsguy.com>,
Michael Wojcik <mww@microfocus.com> wrote:

> [. . .] design encompasses a lot more than appearance (or aesthetics at
large). 

Well, at least, _good_ design.  Seems to me that most contemporary
architecture, automotive design, and the like suggest that many people
think there is a simple equation: design = howitlooks.
-- 
Andrew Sullivan
<ajsulliv@mcmaster.ca> <---- worse
<asullivan@sprint.ca>  <---- better

######

From: Charles Richmond <richmond@plano.net>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 21:45:20 +0000
Organization: Cannine Computer Center
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This thread must *not* go by without mentioning the beautiful and functional
designs of Seymour Cray.  One of his well-known designs (I think it is the
Cray I) has a group of tall computer cabinets arranged in a "C" shape that is
almost closed.  A couch runs around the outside of this "C".  I understand
that the "C" shape allowed wires to be shorter.  It also shows that Mr. Cray
had an eye for the aesthetic.

Another of his supercomputers had a petro-chemical coolant that bubbled and
oozed around the computer module in what might be a fish tank.  Was this the
Cray 2?

Someone who has more *first* hand knowledge of these designs, please post
details.  (...and corrections.)

-- 
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
|     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+

######

Path: ccw.ch!usenet
From: Neil Franklin <Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 21 Aug 1998 22:49:46 +0200
Organization: My own Private Self
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mww@microfocus.com (Michael Wojcik) writes:
>
> In article <shokwave-1908982023480001@as3-dialup-31.io.com>, shokwave@well.com
 (Rob Hafernik) writes:
>
> > This means that its use is clear and it works
> > the way you think it will and it does what it is supposed to.  This is why
> > I pointed out the twin headphone jacks on the front panel of the iMac.
> > Good design.
>
> Against which we could point out any number of design errors.  No
> removable writable media,

Apart from the favourite removable writable media at the university I
work at: an Ethernet link to an Notebook or Powerbook (or in my case
an Palmtop (IBM PC110, 80MByte Flash, 10baseT).


> which discourages users from making backups.

Do your lusers do backups? That is what that cron job on the server is
for. And them networked home directories. And that NIS. The iMac has
an 100Mbit Ethernet to support this.


>  Display connected to the processor case, which makes
> upgrading

Most people when they upgrade the CPU want an better graphics card and
that leads to an new monitor. At universities power users buy full new
machines and then pass the older ones down the ladder. In large firms
it is the same. Reconfiguring hardware takes time, that costs.


> and spacial arrangement difficult.

Move the monitor to the right place, the CPU follows (it is
insignificant in size, 1 or 2 cm thickness.


And the halved size of the rats nest of cables reduces certain types
of faillures involving lusers (students) and computers.


Neil "there is too little styling in computers" Franklin

I use(d) NeXTdimension, Sparcstation 10, SGI Indy and O2.

BTW: the iMac reminds me of the VT320 in its styling.

--
home: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/
work: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/
*** It's true ! I read it on Usenet and the Web ! ***

######

From: mww@microfocus.com (Michael Wojcik)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 22 Aug 1998 01:02:42 GMT
Organization: Micro Focus Inc.
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In article <mkafr6.io.ln@fenelon.zetnet.co.uk>, Pete Fenelon <pete@fenelon.zetnet.co.uk> writes:
> Michael Wojcik <mww@microfocus.com> wrote:
> > The Sun "pizza box" case was a similar mistake - bloated the desktop
> > footprint way up.
> 
> Given that a Sun typically has a ruddy great huge monitor sat on it, or
> is in a rack, I don't find the pizzabox to be a problem. My 3/80 is dwarfed
> by its monitor -- and it looks a lot better than the 3/50 or 3/60 did :)

True, both my SPARCstation 10 and my Ultra 5 have monitors sitting on
top of them.  In both cases, though, the system box is large enough
that the front of the monitor barely overhangs the front of the
system box.  I'd like to be able to slide the keyboard up to the
front of the monitor, as I can with my HP 712; the 712 came with a
stand for tower mounting (mine's on the floor next to the table leg)
and its monitor has a small, flat, round base that allows the leading
edge of the keyboard to fit slightly under the leading edge of the
monitor case.

It's a small difference, but noticeable.  (Maybe I should get a rack.)


Michael Wojcik						mww@microfocus.com
AAI Development, Micro Focus Inc.
Department of English, Miami University

The history of Namco begins in 1955 when the Company's predecessor
began operating rocking-horse rides on the rooftop of a department
store in Yokohama.  Since then, we have pioneered diverse forms of
amusement and entertainment that help people live their dreams.  As
we approach the 21st century, an "Era of Spirituality", Namco will
help to spread dynamic entertainment throughout the world.
-- video game producer Namco's English-language Japanese web page

######

From: stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 04:08:11 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
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In article <m37m02jc0l.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch>,
  Neil Franklin <Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove> wrote:
> mww@microfocus.com (Michael Wojcik) writes:
> >
> > In article <shokwave-1908982023480001@as3-dialup-31.io.com>,
shokwave@well.com
>  (Rob Hafernik) writes:
> >
> > > This means that its use is clear and it works
> > > the way you think it will and it does what it is supposed to.  This is why
> > > I pointed out the twin headphone jacks on the front panel of the iMac.
> > > Good design.
> >
> > Against which we could point out any number of design errors.  No
> > removable writable media,
>
> Apart from the favourite removable writable media at the university I
> work at: an Ethernet link to an Notebook or Powerbook (or in my case
> an Palmtop (IBM PC110, 80MByte Flash, 10baseT).
>

So you are saying that home users who make the mistake of buying an iMac
should be expected to purchase a Notebook or Powerbook to move files off
their iMac because Apple didn't include a floppy drive??  Maybe they should
install an NT server, just for good measure...

> > which discourages users from making backups.
>
> Do your lusers do backups? That is what that cron job on the server is
> for. And them networked home directories. And that NIS. The iMac has
> an 100Mbit Ethernet to support this.

Oh, you advocate the home user installing a Unix server.  I see....


-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum

######

Message-ID: <35DEFAF1.8312040F@mailhost.ind.ameritech.net>
From: Philip Jern <pajern@mailhost.ind.ameritech.net>
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Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
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stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us wrote:

> 
> Oh, you advocate the home user installing a Unix server.  I see....
> 
>

What's wrong with that?

Phil

######

From: <lee1089@kettering.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 14:22:03 -0400
Organization: Kettering University (formerly GMI E&MI) - Flint MI
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On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us wrote:

> In article <m37m02jc0l.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch>,
>   Neil Franklin <Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove> wrote:
> > mww@microfocus.com (Michael Wojcik) writes:
> > >
> > > In article <shokwave-1908982023480001@as3-dialup-31.io.com>,
> shokwave@well.com
> >  (Rob Hafernik) writes:
> > >
> > > > This means that its use is clear and it works
> > > > the way you think it will and it does what it is supposed to.  This is why
> > > > I pointed out the twin headphone jacks on the front panel of the iMac.
> > > > Good design.
> > >
> > > Against which we could point out any number of design errors.  No
> > > removable writable media,
> >
> > Apart from the favourite removable writable media at the university I
> > work at: an Ethernet link to an Notebook or Powerbook (or in my case
> > an Palmtop (IBM PC110, 80MByte Flash, 10baseT).
> >
> 
> So you are saying that home users who make the mistake of buying an iMac
> should be expected to purchase a Notebook or Powerbook to move files off
> their iMac because Apple didn't include a floppy drive??  Maybe they should
> install an NT server, just for good measure...

No, I don't think he was saying that at all.

I would like to take this opportunity to point out that most (all?) home
users don't make backups. I know I don't. I really don't have anything
that important to backup. If I lose something it's not like in a business
where I'm going to loose money. I just sigh and move on. Also, would you
like to backup onto floppies? The iMac comes with a 4GB drive that has
almost 1GB used up if you install the programs on the CDs. That comes to
about 1000 floppies. Steve Jobs was right. What use is a floppy drive
anymore? With files and HDs getting bigger and bigger the floppy is
quickly becoming a very tiny dinosaur. It's about time a computer company
realized this and encouraged the use of other technologies. Besides, if
having a microfloppy drive it that important to you then get a superdrive
or the USB floppy both of which can read and write 1.44 meg floppies and
the superdrive also gives you the ability to use 120MB super disks. Even
better yet, get the new USB Zip drive. Hell, almost the entire free world
has a Zip any more. (Of course I'd like to see Iomega produce a USB Jaz
drive.)

> > > which discourages users from making backups.
> >
> > Do your lusers do backups? That is what that cron job on the server is
> > for. And them networked home directories. And that NIS. The iMac has
> > an 100Mbit Ethernet to support this.
> 
> Oh, you advocate the home user installing a Unix server.  I see....

Another possibility is backing up over the internet. Several services
exist already. You just pay a fee and all your stuff is backed up
somewhere where you don't have to worry about it. No stacks of floppies in
your house, no having to buy a special drive. Just connect and back up. If
something goes wrong and you lose your HD you just reinstall the OS from
the CD and then connect to the Internet to restore all your data.
(Obviously ethernet or ISDN helps but a 33.6k or 56k modem would still be
somewhat tolerable.)

######

From: stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 19:56:39 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
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In article <35DEFAF1.8312040F@mailhost.ind.ameritech.net>,
  pajern@ameritech.net wrote:
> stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us wrote:
>
> >
> > Oh, you advocate the home user installing a Unix server.  I see....
> >
> >
>
> What's wrong with that?
>
> Phil
>

There is nothing wrong with that at all.  In fact I have done such myself.  I
guess I should have written "Oh, you advocate all new iMac customers
installing a Unix server."

My point was that a Unix server is not a practical backup solution for many
potential iMac customers, many of whom supposedly are buying their first
computer.  (but most of whom, many suspect, are merely die-hard Mac fanatics
buying another Mac).

Please read what I put in that article in context (which you've prevented
anybody reading this from doing by quoting my single line)

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum

######

From: stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 19:56:39 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <6rn7pn$5ap$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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In article <35DEFAF1.8312040F@mailhost.ind.ameritech.net>,
  pajern@ameritech.net wrote:
> stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us wrote:
>
> >
> > Oh, you advocate the home user installing a Unix server.  I see....
> >
> >
>
> What's wrong with that?
>
> Phil
>

There is nothing wrong with that at all.  In fact I have done such myself.  I
guess I should have written "Oh, you advocate all new iMac customers
installing a Unix server."

My point was that a Unix server is not a practical backup solution for many
potential iMac customers, many of whom supposedly are buying their first
computer.  (but most of whom, many suspect, are merely die-hard Mac fanatics
buying another Mac).

Please read what I put in that article in context (which you've prevented
anybody reading this from doing by quoting my single line)

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum

######

From: <lee1089@kettering.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 20:40:18 -0400
Organization: Kettering University (formerly GMI E&MI) - Flint MI
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On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us wrote:

> In article <Pine.GSO.3.95q.980822141246.13985A-100000@nova.kettering.edu>,
>   <lee1089@kettering.edu> wrote:
> > On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us wrote:
> >
> > > In article <m37m02jc0l.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch>,
> > >   Neil Franklin <Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove> wrote:
> > > > mww@microfocus.com (Michael Wojcik) writes:
> > > > >
> > > > > In article <shokwave-1908982023480001@as3-dialup-31.io.com>,
> > > shokwave@well.com
> > > >  (Rob Hafernik) writes:
> > > > >
> > > > > > This means that its use is clear and it works
> > > > > > the way you think it will and it does what it is supposed to.  This is
> why
> > > > > > I pointed out the twin headphone jacks on the front panel of the iMac.
> > > > > > Good design.
> > > > >
> > > > > Against which we could point out any number of design errors.  No
> > > > > removable writable media,
> > > >
> > > > Apart from the favourite removable writable media at the university I
> > > > work at: an Ethernet link to an Notebook or Powerbook (or in my case
> > > > an Palmtop (IBM PC110, 80MByte Flash, 10baseT).
> > > >
> > >
> > > So you are saying that home users who make the mistake of buying an iMac
> > > should be expected to purchase a Notebook or Powerbook to move files off
> > > their iMac because Apple didn't include a floppy drive??  Maybe they should
> > > install an NT server, just for good measure...
> >
> > No, I don't think he was saying that at all.
> >
> > I would like to take this opportunity to point out that most (all?) home
> > users don't make backups. I know I don't. I really don't have anything
> > that important to backup.
> 
> For many people the work they accomplish on their computer is not throwaway
> material.  Perhaps you just have different priorities with what you do on a
> computer.  You certainly don't speak for the "creative core of users" who
> Apple is always parading about in their advetisements.

Again, most home users I've run across do *not* make backup copies of
anything. Why should Apple include something that many people simply do
not use? Why should I or anyone else who doesn't use it have to pay for
it? I would rather have the choice of buying the add-on removeable drive
of my preferences (Zip, floppy, and SuperDisk being the first choices and
surely Jaz can't be far off.)

> > If I lose something it's not like in a business
> > where I'm going to loose money. I just sigh and move on. Also, would you
> > like to backup onto floppies? The iMac comes with a 4GB drive that has
> > almost 1GB used up if you install the programs on the CDs. That comes to
> > about 1000 floppies. Steve Jobs was right. What use is a floppy drive
> > anymore?
> 
> You've really missed the point.  If, say, a writer spends 4 hours a day
> writing her novel, and there's no way to back up the text, that writer is
> totally dependant on the hard drive not crashing.  In a household that has
> children, they very well may have Mac computers at school.  They may want to
> bring home work, or bring things they have worked on at home into school for
> printing.  The floppy drive has MANY such uses, and it's pure arrogance on
> the part of Apple (doubtless inspired by Mr. Jobs, who is a "pioneer" in the
> field of arrogant computer design) to exclude a commonly used form of
> removable media.

Again, how many floppies would be required to back up this four-hour-a-day
text file? At first it would conveniently fit on one but it will quickly
grow to be too large to fit on a floppy. Then what? The user will have to
buy some type of file segmenting or backup program all just to save one
measily file. OTOH this writer can instead use the money they saved by not
having a floppy drive to put toward a Zip drive.

> > With files and HDs getting bigger and bigger the floppy is
> > quickly becoming a very tiny dinosaur. It's about time a computer company
> > realized this and encouraged the use of other technologies.
> 
> "Encourage" is a gentle word.  Apple prefers it to the word "force" which is
> their practice here.

They aren't forcing anything. Anyone who really *wants* a floppy drive can
get the USB floppy. I have no need for a floppy so I don't have to pay for
one.

> > Besides, if
> > having a microfloppy drive it that important to you then get a superdrive
> > or the USB floppy both of which can read and write 1.44 meg floppies and
> > the superdrive also gives you the ability to use 120MB super disks. Even
> > better yet, get the new USB Zip drive. Hell, almost the entire free world
> > has a Zip any more. (Of course I'd like to see Iomega produce a USB Jaz
> > drive.)
> 
> Yes, spend more money on what should be a standard peripheral. Hang it
> off the back of the machine on a wire.  Whoops, what happened to that

No, you can just hang it off the side of the keyboard with a short USB
cable. That's probably where it would sit anyway. Why don't you stop and
think for a moment and tell us when was the last time you used a floppy
and what it was for. I almost *never* use them. I suspect most home users
are the same way.

> "clean design" everone is hyping?  KK > > > > > which discourages users
> from making backups.  > > > > > > Do your lusers do backups? That is
> what that cron job on the server is > > > for. And them networked home
> directories. And that NIS. The iMac has > > > an 100Mbit Ethernet to
> support this.  > > > > Oh, you advocate the home user installing a Unix
> server.  I see....  > > Another possibility is backing up over the
> internet. Several services > exist already. You just pay a fee and all
> your stuff is backed up > somewhere where you don't have to worry about
> it. No stacks of floppies in > your house, no having to buy a special
> drive. Just connect and back up. If > something goes wrong and you lose
> your HD you just reinstall the OS from > the CD and then connect to the
> Internet to restore all your data.  > (Obviously ethernet or ISDN helps
> but a 33.6k or 56k modem would still be > somewhat tolerable.)  >
> 
> This is starting to sound like "network computing" though.  If this is
> the direction things are headed why does the purchaser need the 4 GB
> hard drive at all? 

Because things aren't headed in that direction. The iMac is not a NC. It
is still a PC. One that isn't burdened down by all the decades old
peripherals like floppies.

> People are not going to feel comfortable (and they shouldn't feel
> comfortable) uploading all the personal and financial data they've entered
> into their machine to a networked server.  It's obscene to offer it as the
> only method of backup to people who might not even recognize the risks
> involved.

Obviously, you have been missing (more like ignoring) the obvious here.
INTERNET BACKUPS ARE AN *OPTION* not the only possibility. People already
back up over networks. Sure the internet is much more open than say a LAN
but with the proper incryption techniques it can be nearly as safe. If you
are squeamish about backing up over the net then get a Zip or Jaz drive
and save yourself several *thousand* floppies. Or get the SuperDisk drive 
and you still have access to floppies if need be but you can also use a
much more reasonable 120 MB medium. I don't know about you but *I* for one
am not going to sit at the computer for hours swapping floppies to back up
my data. They don't call them microfloppies for nothing.

######

From: stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 21:48:37 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Lines: 111
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In article <Pine.GSO.3.95q.980822141246.13985A-100000@nova.kettering.edu>,
  <lee1089@kettering.edu> wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us wrote:
>
> > In article <m37m02jc0l.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch>,
> >   Neil Franklin <Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove> wrote:
> > > mww@microfocus.com (Michael Wojcik) writes:
> > > >
> > > > In article <shokwave-1908982023480001@as3-dialup-31.io.com>,
> > shokwave@well.com
> > >  (Rob Hafernik) writes:
> > > >
> > > > > This means that its use is clear and it works
> > > > > the way you think it will and it does what it is supposed to.  This is
why
> > > > > I pointed out the twin headphone jacks on the front panel of the iMac.
> > > > > Good design.
> > > >
> > > > Against which we could point out any number of design errors.  No
> > > > removable writable media,
> > >
> > > Apart from the favourite removable writable media at the university I
> > > work at: an Ethernet link to an Notebook or Powerbook (or in my case
> > > an Palmtop (IBM PC110, 80MByte Flash, 10baseT).
> > >
> >
> > So you are saying that home users who make the mistake of buying an iMac
> > should be expected to purchase a Notebook or Powerbook to move files off
> > their iMac because Apple didn't include a floppy drive??  Maybe they should
> > install an NT server, just for good measure...
>
> No, I don't think he was saying that at all.
>
> I would like to take this opportunity to point out that most (all?) home
> users don't make backups. I know I don't. I really don't have anything
> that important to backup.

For many people the work they accomplish on their computer is not throwaway
material.  Perhaps you just have different priorities with what you do on a
computer.  You certainly don't speak for the "creative core of users" who
Apple is always parading about in their advetisements.

> If I lose something it's not like in a business
> where I'm going to loose money. I just sigh and move on. Also, would you
> like to backup onto floppies? The iMac comes with a 4GB drive that has
> almost 1GB used up if you install the programs on the CDs. That comes to
> about 1000 floppies. Steve Jobs was right. What use is a floppy drive
> anymore?

You've really missed the point.  If, say, a writer spends 4 hours a day
writing her novel, and there's no way to back up the text, that writer is
totally dependant on the hard drive not crashing.  In a household that has
children, they very well may have Mac computers at school.  They may want to
bring home work, or bring things they have worked on at home into school for
printing.  The floppy drive has MANY such uses, and it's pure arrogance on
the part of Apple (doubtless inspired by Mr. Jobs, who is a "pioneer" in the
field of arrogant computer design) to exclude a commonly used form of
removable media.

> With files and HDs getting bigger and bigger the floppy is
> quickly becoming a very tiny dinosaur. It's about time a computer company
> realized this and encouraged the use of other technologies.

"Encourage" is a gentle word.  Apple prefers it to the word "force" which is
their practice here.

> Besides, if
> having a microfloppy drive it that important to you then get a superdrive
> or the USB floppy both of which can read and write 1.44 meg floppies and
> the superdrive also gives you the ability to use 120MB super disks. Even
> better yet, get the new USB Zip drive. Hell, almost the entire free world
> has a Zip any more. (Of course I'd like to see Iomega produce a USB Jaz
> drive.)

Yes, spend more money on what should be a standard peripheral.	Hang it off
the back of the machine on a wire.  Whoops, what happened to that "clean
design" everone is hyping?

>
> > > > which discourages users from making backups.
> > >
> > > Do your lusers do backups? That is what that cron job on the server is
> > > for. And them networked home directories. And that NIS. The iMac has
> > > an 100Mbit Ethernet to support this.
> >
> > Oh, you advocate the home user installing a Unix server.  I see....
>
> Another possibility is backing up over the internet. Several services
> exist already. You just pay a fee and all your stuff is backed up
> somewhere where you don't have to worry about it. No stacks of floppies in
> your house, no having to buy a special drive. Just connect and back up. If
> something goes wrong and you lose your HD you just reinstall the OS from
> the CD and then connect to the Internet to restore all your data.
> (Obviously ethernet or ISDN helps but a 33.6k or 56k modem would still be
> somewhat tolerable.)
>

This is starting to sound like "network computing" though.  If this is the
direction things are headed why does the purchaser need the 4 GB hard drive at
all?

People are not going to feel comfortable (and they shouldn't feel
comfortable) uploading all the personal and financial data they've entered
into their machine to a networked server.  It's obscene to offer it as the
only method of backup to people who might not even recognize the risks
involved.

>

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum

######

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 01:52:44 +0200
Message-ID: <peterk.1qut@combo.ganesha.com>
From: peterk@combo.ganesha.com (Dr. Peter Kittel)
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Reply-To: peterk @ combo.ganesha.com
References: <shokwave-1908981114460001@as1-dialup-68.io.com> <6rfoas$olc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6ria45$pge$1@sue.cc.uregina.ca>
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In article <6ria45$pge$1@sue.cc.uregina.ca> bayko@borealis.cs.uregina.ca (John  Bayko) writes:
>
>    For very low cost, user-proof systems, the only way to minimise
>pieces is to put the CPU in the same case as either the monitor or the
>keyboard, the keyboard option is worse (Amiga? ST?).

I don't think so. With this solution, you still are free to choose a
monitor, where you are locked into one single monitor type with the
alternative. Amstrad had an 8-bitter done this way called Joyce.
It was a big flop, ok perhaps also because its using 3" floppies
instead of 3.5" ones.

>    It does tie you to a display.

It does what? It ties you to a keyboard, but you can change the display.
Now what's worse?

Ok, both alternatives have more minusses:
Keyboard: Needs external power supply because of heat problems. You
can't have a fan, more heat problems. Many cables attached to the
keyboard. Locked to this keyboard model.
Monitor: Strong EMF problems inside a monitor case. Monitor electronics
develops much heat, so there can evolve heat problems. Locked to this
monitor model.

-- 
Best Regards, Dr. Peter Kittel       // E-Mail:
Private Site in Frankfurt, Germany \X/  peterk @ combo.ganesha.com

######

Date: 23 Aug 98 07:21:59 +0000
From: "Adam Atkinson" <ghira@mistral.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
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On 22-Aug-98 21:48:37, stevenss said:

>> Besides, if
>> having a microfloppy drive it that important to you then get a superdrive
>> or the USB floppy both of which can read and write 1.44 meg floppies and
>> the superdrive also gives you the ability to use 120MB super disks. Even
>> better yet, get the new USB Zip drive. Hell, almost the entire free world
>> has a Zip any more. (Of course I'd like to see Iomega produce a USB Jaz
>> drive.)

>Yes, spend more money on what should be a standard peripheral. Hang it off
>the back of the machine on a wire.  Whoops, what happened to that "clean
>design" everone is hyping?

Well, I prefer my Zip drive to be external so that I can move the drive
itself around when I need to. Floppies are no use for backing anything
up - certainly the sorts of people Apple is trying to target will be
doing things that can't be backed up onto floppies. So Zip/Jaz/DymaMO
are the way to go there. Actually, photoshop files are so large that
I'd say Zip/superdrive are probably too small.

I think floppies have been dead for quite a while. I think Apple
has considerable Chutzpah to leave them out, even so... especially
since they haven't provided a larger alternative with the machine.

-- 
Adam Atkinson (ghira@mistral.co.uk)
EXAKCIP

######

From: mww@microfocus.com (Michael Wojcik)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 23 Aug 1998 15:54:53 GMT
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In article <shokwave-2108981232190001@as5-dialup-01.io.com>, shokwave@well.com (Rob Hafernik) writes:
> <snip>

Would you *please* learn to attribute what you quote?  It's not difficult.

> > Against which we could point out any number of design errors.  No
> > removable writable media, which discourages users from making
> > backups.  Display connected to the processor case, which makes
> > upgrading and spacial arrangement difficult.
> 
> Depends on the market.  Schools, for example, kinda LIKE the idea of no
> removable media.  Many schools LOCK the floppy drives on computers that
> have them.

I'd be sorely disappointed in such a school lab.  People who are using
computers to do original work - even schoolwork - that's not work done
for hire generally have the right to keep the results of their labors.
And relying on lab administrators to make backups and secure them
against various disasters is decidedly risky; look at the recent losses
at Stanford.  Denying access to removable media, however common, cost-
effective, or convenient, is suspect in my book.

And even if I were to concede this point, is it really an advantage
for the iMac to be more suitable for a certain style of regimented
school lab than for other sorts of users?

> Ditto for the display: that which is detachable can be lost or
> mismatched.  It also goes to cost; one set of molds is cheaper than two,
> one power supply cheaper than two.

If Apple were concerned about cost, it should have left the clone
market intact.  Jobs wins no points from me on that issue.  Lost?
An institution that can't control its hardware assets to the point
that it's losing monitors probably won't do much better with an
integrated unit.  Mismatched?  Isn't this the patron saint of
proprietary-means-compatible that we're talking about?


Michael Wojcik						mww@microfocus.com
AAI Development, Micro Focus Inc.
Department of English, Miami University

Therefore, it is possible to enjoy further by using under the
Netscape 2.0.  However, Netscape will hangup at sometimes.  You
should give it up.
-- roro

######

From: jonathan@canuck.com (Victor the Cleaner)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 23 Aug 1998 19:06:31 GMT
Organization: Canada Connect Corp.
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Charles Richmond (richmond@plano.net) wrote:

: Someone who has more *first* hand knowledge of these designs, please post
: details.  (...and corrections.)

No first-hand experience, but I've got a sales brochure for the Cray-2 in front
of me.  Great pictures.  There's also a book called "The Supermen" that is a
reasonable lay history of Cray and supers in general.  The book wouldn't have
suffered from a _little_ more technical discussion, but it Really Sucked in the
photographs department.  I wouldn't have minded ten bucks being added to the cover
price if it meant some good color plates of Seymour's machines, especially the 3 
(kind of stillborn) and 4 (never finished due to his death).  A couple of years
back there were some very cool descriptions of the guts of the 3 and 4 in 
comp.sys.super from some folks who worked there toward the end.

: This thread must *not* go by without mentioning the beautiful and functional
: designs of Seymour Cray.  One of his well-known designs (I think it is the
: Cray I) has a group of tall computer cabinets arranged in a "C" shape that is
: almost closed.  A couch runs around the outside of this "C".  I understand
: that the "C" shape allowed wires to be shorter.  It also shows that Mr. Cray
: had an eye for the aesthetic.

Yes, that was the Cray-1.

: Another of his supercomputers had a petro-chemical coolant that bubbled and
: oozed around the computer module in what might be a fish tank.  Was this the
: Cray 2?

The Cray-2 had much the same "C footprint", though it was shorter (four feet or
so tall) and lacked the "bench" that had contained the power supply in the Cray-1.
The cpu and memory were bathed in flourinert coolant, and visible through glass
windows on top and around the periphery.  A separate, spacey cabinet contained the
heat exchanger allowing the system to be water-cooled.

Damn straight, though.  Cray was a class act, not only in his architectures, but
in the unique ID he brought to the Land of Square Blue Boxes.

--
    jonathan@canuck.com
 Canada Connect Corporation    | Jonathan |    Survival Research Laboratories
        Calgary, AB            |  Levine  |          San Francisco, CA
   403-777-2025, fax 2026                           vox/fax 415-641-8065

######

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 23 Aug 1998 20:52:36 GMT
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On Sun, 23 Aug 1998 15:54:53, mww@microfocus.com (Michael Wojcik) wrote:

> at Stanford.  Denying access to removable media, however common, cost-
> effective, or convenient, is suspect in my book.

I would guess that school labs prohibit removable media because of concern about
viruses.  Sounds reasonable to me.

--  
            John Varela
            (delete . between world and net to e-mail me)

######

From: dg@ (David Given)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 22:17:30 GMT
Organization: I'm organised? Wow!
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In article <6rpp7o$crc$1@cleavage.canuck.com>,
Victor the Cleaner <jonathan@canuck.com> wrote:
[...]
>The Cray-2 had much the same "C footprint", though it was shorter (four feet or
>so tall) and lacked the "bench" that had contained the power supply in the Cray-1.
>The cpu and memory were bathed in flourinert coolant, and visible through glass
>windows on top and around the periphery.  A separate, spacey cabinet contained the
>heat exchanger allowing the system to be water-cooled.

You could buy, from Cray, flat plastic fish-shapes cut out of some kind of
temperature sensitive plastic. You put these into the coolant tank. As
the temperature in the tank oscillated about whatever the thermostat was
set to, these fish would flex back and forth and `swim' around in the
tank, visible through the windows, of course.

These were known as Cray fish. This is absolutely true.

>Damn straight, though.  Cray was a class act, not only in his architectures, but
>in the unique ID he brought to the Land of Square Blue Boxes.

He had style. I want one.

-- 
+- David Given ----------------+ 
|  Work: dg@tao.co.uk          | Defeat is worse than death, because
|  Play: dgiven@iname.com      | you have to live with defeat.     
+- http://wiredsoc.ml.org/~dg -+ 

######

From: keithlim@pobox.com (keith lim)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 00:54:03 +0800
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<stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us> wrote:
><lee1089@kettering.edu> wrote:

>>I would like to take this opportunity to point out that most (all?)
home
>>users don't make backups. I know I don't. I really don't have anything
>>that important to backup.

>For many people the work they accomplish on their computer is not
throwaway
>material.  Perhaps you just have different priorities with what you do
on a
>computer.  You certainly don't speak for the "creative core of users"
who
>Apple is always parading about in their advetisements.

And that "creative core" is *not* who the iMac is targeted for;they
won't buy many iMacs, and if they do, it'll be for the design, not for
its capabilities.

Creative professionals use the high-end G3s, and even then, they
complain about the machines not having enough slots for all their
peripherals. Creative professionals have even less use for floppies than
the general user. Some of their files won't fit even on a Zip disk.

The iMac's not for them, but it never was nor intented to be in the
first place.

-- 
keith lim     keithlim@pobox.com     http://pobox.com/~keithlim/
What goes around, comes around. Unless it changes direction while out
of sight, like a squirrel scampering up a tree, in which case it may 
pop up behind you after all. --Trelford Pinkerton

######

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Michael Wojcik wrote:
> And even if I were to concede this point, is it really an advantage
> for the iMac to be more suitable for a certain style of regimented
> school lab than for other sorts of users?

The iMac would not be very suitable for a programming course in 
a school lab.  No,  the better choice would be the system on
display at www.netwinder.org.  It's a RISC system that comes
preinstalled with Linux.  Only half the price of the iMac.
Also built in with ethernet and 10baseT cards as well.

> If Apple were concerned about cost, it should have left the clone
> market intact.  Jobs wins no points from me on that issue.  Lost?
> An institution that can't control its hardware assets to the point
> that it's losing monitors probably won't do much better with an
> integrated unit.  Mismatched?  Isn't this the patron saint of
> proprietary-means-compatible that we're talking about?


Well, Jobs' first priority was to make Apple big again. To do this,
he designed a computer that would be more of a consumer appliance 
than a computer. In this respect, he was successful.  


-- 

      Optimizer of life.                   \  /
main(){printf("Na razie.  \n");}  ----------><----------
       -Gwizdak aka Wazm                   /  \
http://www.crowsnest.dynip.com/~wazm

######

From: andrewbucko@worldnet.att.net (Andrew D. Bucko)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 24 Aug 1998 02:29:37 GMT
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On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 21:48:37 GMT, stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us wrote:

>You've really missed the point.  If, say, a writer spends 4 hours a day
>writing her novel, and there's no way to back up the text, that writer is
>totally dependant on the hard drive not crashing.  In a household that has
>children, they very well may have Mac computers at school.  They may want to
>bring home work, or bring things they have worked on at home into school for
>printing.  The floppy drive has MANY such uses, and it's pure arrogance on
>the part of Apple (doubtless inspired by Mr. Jobs, who is a "pioneer" in the
>field of arrogant computer design) to exclude a commonly used form of
>removable media.

Oh, come on!  Can't you think of a better argument?  Are _you_ a
elementary/middle/high school student?  I am (high school) and have NEVER, EVER
taken work either to school or from school on a diskette, and this is from
kindegarten all the way to 11th grade, in which time I've used Commodore, Apple
II, Macintosh and Wintel machines.  The last lab report I made for chemestry was
a 1.8MB Word document (large illustration).  One project I made was a 23MB
Publisher document (18 pages and a ~lot~ of photos).  Neither a simple lab
report (done almost every week) or major project would even fit on a floppy disk
anymore.

>> With files and HDs getting bigger and bigger the floppy is
>> quickly becoming a very tiny dinosaur. It's about time a computer company
>> realized this and encouraged the use of other technologies.
>
>"Encourage" is a gentle word.  Apple prefers it to the word "force" which is
>their practice here.

USB storage is always an option.  Most users would have gotten a Zip drive
anyway, even if there was a floppy disk drive included.

>> Besides, if
>> having a microfloppy drive it that important to you then get a superdrive
>> or the USB floppy both of which can read and write 1.44 meg floppies and
>> the superdrive also gives you the ability to use 120MB super disks. Even
>> better yet, get the new USB Zip drive. Hell, almost the entire free world
>> has a Zip any more. (Of course I'd like to see Iomega produce a USB Jaz
>> drive.)
>
>Yes, spend more money on what should be a standard peripheral.	Hang it off
>the back of the machine on a wire.  Whoops, what happened to that "clean
>design" everone is hyping?

1 wire.  Big difference.

--
Andrew D. Bucko

alt.startrek.role-playing FAQ Keeper
http://members.aol.com/trekology/newsgroup.htm

######

From: andrewbucko@worldnet.att.net (Andrew D. Bucko)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 24 Aug 1998 02:31:59 GMT
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On 19 Aug 1998 19:47:04 GMT, writer1@Eng.Sun.COM (Bob Morrisette) wrote:

>The coolest design I've seen lately is the Toshiba Equium. It has a door
>that lets you slide out the motherboard and work on it or replace
>it in 30 seconds. It's designed to be a desktop or tower machine.
>Nice lines all around.

That sounds a little like the Macintosh Color Classic....

--
Andrew D. Bucko

alt.startrek.role-playing FAQ Keeper
http://members.aol.com/trekology/newsgroup.htm

######

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: jasnider@iglou1.iglou.com (Pat Larkin)
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
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jav-2@world.net.att.net (John Varela) writes:

>On Sun, 23 Aug 1998 15:54:53, mww@microfocus.com (Michael Wojcik) wrote:

>> at Stanford.  Denying access to removable media, however common, cost-
>> effective, or convenient, is suspect in my book.

>I would guess that school labs prohibit removable media because of
>concern about viruses.  Sounds reasonable to me.
>--
>            John Varela
>            (delete . between world and net to e-mail me)

My sister once told me that in the two years they have had a computer at
home, it caught more than 100 different viruses from the disks the kids
brought home from school.  Schools are a great reservoir for all kinds of
viruses, apparently.
--  
Pat Larkin                  74246 <dot> 1077
Louisville, Kentucky  USA   compuserve <dot> com
-- 

######

From: Robert Billing <unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:08:38 +0000
Organization: Tanglewood
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John Varela wrote:

> I would guess that school labs prohibit removable media because of concern about
> viruses.  Sounds reasonable to me.

 If they were concerned about that, they would simply upgrade to Linux
and have done with it.

-- 
I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal
lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N.  http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/
"Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock
phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three"

######

From: shokwave@well.com (Rob Hafernik)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:13:59 -0600
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I agree.  Floppies are dead.  Useless.  I hardly ever use the floppy drive
on my desktop Mac anymore.  The floppy drive on my old laptop died months
ago and I've never bothered to get it fixed.

If I bought an iMac, I'd get a USB zip drive, since I already have lots
and lots of stuff on zip cartridges anyway.  Zip cartridges add new
meanting to "sneaker net".

######

From: "S. L. Wellborn" <gigabyte@technologist.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:43:02 -0700
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Alexandre Pechtchanski wrote in message <35e5b25b.15677469@Rockyd>...
>On Mon, 24 Aug 1998 18:03:52 GMT, yuska@bgs.com wrote:
>[ Courtesy cc'ed through e-mail to the quoted author ]
>
>[ big snip ]
>
>>and blue glass. For an excellent tribute to Semour Cray by another giant,
>>Gordon Bell, see:
>>
>>http://research.microsoft.com/BARC/GBell/craytalk
>
>...And just when I thought "look, something useful on Microsoft web site",
my
>browser returned:
>
>Directory Listing Denied
>
>This Virtual Directory does not allow contents to be listed.
>
>Gee, I wonder what would happen if I used Internet Explorer?


I got the same message on IE4 try http://research.microsoft.com/BARC/GBell/

>[ When replying, remove *'s from address ]
>Alexandre Pechtchanski, Systems Manager, RUH, NY

######

From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb@aiai.ed.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
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* lee1089  wrote:
> Again, most home users I've run across do *not* make backup copies of
> anything. Why should Apple include something that many people simply do
> not use? Why should I or anyone else who doesn't use it have to pay for
> it? I would rather have the choice of buying the add-on removeable drive
> of my preferences (Zip, floppy, and SuperDisk being the first choices and
> surely Jaz can't be far off.)

Arguments of the form `most people don't do x, so we shouldn't provide
x' are silly in general.  15 years ago most people didn't use a window
system...  Of course, the argument that's really being made here is
`even given the facility to do x, most people don't do it', and in
that case it probably makes solid commercial sense not to provide
facilities for x.  This is how dumbing-down happens: `most of our
users are too dumb to do x, so in future we'll remove feature x, which
will mean we only appeal to dumb users, and also make it much harder
for those users to get smarter'.

> Again, how many floppies would be required to back up this four-hour-a-day
> text file? At first it would conveniently fit on one but it will quickly
> grow to be too large to fit on a floppy. Then what? The user will have to
> buy some type of file segmenting or backup program all just to save one
> measily file. OTOH this writer can instead use the money they saved by not
> having a floppy drive to put toward a Zip drive.

Well 1Mb is about 100,000 words at 10 bytes/word.  That's a *lot* of
typing.  (Unless of course you use MS Word or something, when 1Mb is
probably about 10 words).

--tim (who backs up everything, including his calculator).

######

From: writer1@Eng.Sun.COM (Bob Morrisette)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 24 Aug 1998 16:27:36 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc.
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In article ka6@freenet-news.carleton.ca, ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) writes:
> 
> Rob Hafernik (shokwave@well.com) writes:
> > 
> > Since I have to stare at computers all day long, I appreciate a company
> > that works to make this more pleasant.  Do you think industrial design
> > leads to better sales for a given computer?  I wonder, because computers
> > in business are so often bought by people looking a spec sheets rather
> > than the actual boxes.  If design really does matter, why do most
> > computers look so crappy?
> 
>   Well, the System 360 line was a fairly nice design IMHO.  In those days
>   the big iron was often put on display behind glass.  Having the cabling
>   under a raised floor cleaned the "look" up quite a bit.  And Hollywood
>   loved all those flashing lights on the main console.
> 
Have you seen the Toshiba Equium 7000 series with slide-out motherboard?
You can use them as desktop or towers. Very sleek!

Bob Morrisette

######

From: writer1@Eng.Sun.COM
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 24 Aug 1998 16:31:37 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc.
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In article 100000@nova.kettering.edu, <lee1089@kettering.edu> writes:
> On 19 Aug 1998, Bob Morrisette wrote:
> 
> > The coolest design I've seen lately is the Toshiba Equium. It has a door
> > that lets you slide out the motherboard and work on it or replace
> > it in 30 seconds. It's designed to be a desktop or tower machine.
> > Nice lines all around.
> 
> That sounds like the Perfoma 575 I bought about 5 years ago.
> 
You must be kidding.

######

From: writer1@Eng.Sun.COM
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 24 Aug 1998 16:31:37 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc.
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In article 100000@nova.kettering.edu, <lee1089@kettering.edu> writes:
> On 19 Aug 1998, Bob Morrisette wrote:
> 
> > The coolest design I've seen lately is the Toshiba Equium. It has a door
> > that lets you slide out the motherboard and work on it or replace
> > it in 30 seconds. It's designed to be a desktop or tower machine.
> > Nice lines all around.
> 
> That sounds like the Perfoma 575 I bought about 5 years ago.
> 
You must be kidding.

######

From: <lee1089@kettering.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 16:58:37 -0400
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On Mon, 24 Aug 1998, Gwizdak wrote:

> Andrew D. Bucko wrote:
> > Oh, come on!  Can't you think of a better argument?  Are _you_ a
> > elementary/middle/high school student?  I am (high school) and have NEVER, EVER
> > taken work either to school or from school on a diskette, and this is from
> 
> I am a high school student as well, and I always have a diskette on me
> at
> all times.
> 
> > kindegarten all the way to 11th grade, in which time I've used Commodore, Apple
> > II, Macintosh and Wintel machines.  The last lab report I made for chemestry was
> > a 1.8MB Word document (large illustration).  One project I made was a 23MB
> > Publisher document (18 pages and a ~lot~ of photos).  Neither a simple lab
> > report (done almost every week) or major project would even fit on a floppy disk
> > anymore.
> 
> That's why I use text files.  For programming labs, I prefer being able
> to 
> use a floppy.  (Backups..)  I also don't like the tools that the school 
> systems use.. so I take my projects home to recompile with superior 
> programs.

Wait till you get to college. Your dorm will most likely be networked and
you'll never want to ever see another floppy again. I find it so much
easier to ftp my files around or to setup shared directories. (FTP is best
because just about any OS can use FTP.)

> The programming labs do not have networks either (gee, I wonder why), so
> to
> print anything out, further requires such media.

The iMacs come with built-in 56k modems and 10/100 base T ethernet.
Basically you have everything you need for a network besides the hub and
wires. Anyone who bought a lab full of them without installing the network
would be incredibly stupid as they are designed to have the network or
internet access. Obviously, without the network a floppy does become
somewhat more important.

######

Message-ID: <35E04B79.519E@bellsouth.net>
From: Gwizdak <wazm@bellsouth.net>
Reply-To: wazm@bellsouth.net
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Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
References: <shokwave-1908981114460001@as1-dialup-68.io.com> <6rf0eg$q1k@news1.newsguy.com> <shokwave-1908982023480001@as3-dialup-31.io.com> <6rhc4s$moe@news1.newsguy.com> <m37m02jc0l.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch> <6rlg7b$cde$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Pine.GSO.3.95q.980822141246.13985A-100000@nova.kettering.edu> <6rnebl$b4g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35e3ccc9.1452037@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
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Andrew D. Bucko wrote:
> Oh, come on!  Can't you think of a better argument?  Are _you_ a
> elementary/middle/high school student?  I am (high school) and have NEVER, EVER
> taken work either to school or from school on a diskette, and this is from

I am a high school student as well, and I always have a diskette on me
at
all times.

> kindegarten all the way to 11th grade, in which time I've used Commodore, Apple
> II, Macintosh and Wintel machines.  The last lab report I made for chemestry was
> a 1.8MB Word document (large illustration).  One project I made was a 23MB
> Publisher document (18 pages and a ~lot~ of photos).  Neither a simple lab
> report (done almost every week) or major project would even fit on a floppy disk
> anymore.

That's why I use text files.  For programming labs, I prefer being able
to 
use a floppy.  (Backups..)  I also don't like the tools that the school 
systems use.. so I take my projects home to recompile with superior 
programs.

The programming labs do not have networks either (gee, I wonder why), so
to
print anything out, further requires such media.



-- 

      Optimizer of life.                   \  /
main(){printf("Na razie.  \n");}  ----------><----------
       -Gwizdak aka Wazm                   /  \
http://www.crowsnest.dynip.com/~wazm

######

Message-ID: <35E04C0F.184@bellsouth.net>
From: Gwizdak <wazm@bellsouth.net>
Reply-To: wazm@bellsouth.net
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20  (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
References: <shokwave-1908981114460001@as1-dialup-68.io.com> <6rf0eg$q1k@news1.newsguy.com> <shokwave-1908982023480001@as3-dialup-31.io.com> <6rhc4s$moe@news1.newsguy.com> <shokwave-2108981232190001@as5-dialup-01.io.com> <6rpe0e$re7@news3.newsguy.com> <Q1k2gcb1ebq4-pn2-WnTRpTdxeQQb@103.arlington-12.va.dial-access.att.net> <Ey6onu.G9u@iglou.com>
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Pat Larkin wrote:
> My sister once told me that in the two years they have had a computer at
> home, it caught more than 100 different viruses from the disks the kids
> brought home from school.  Schools are a great reservoir for all kinds of
> viruses, apparently.

The best way to prevent this, is too make sure the computers are 
so crappy that they can't run the "lastest warezes".  

I did get a Word macro virus from one of the computers though..  

-- 

      Optimizer of life.                   \  /
main(){printf("Na razie.  \n");}  ----------><----------
       -Gwizdak aka Wazm                   /  \
http://www.crowsnest.dynip.com/~wazm

######

From: yuska@bgs.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 17:29:42 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
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In article <6rn7pn$5ap$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
  stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us wrote:
> In article <35DEFAF1.8312040F@mailhost.ind.ameritech.net>,
>   pajern@ameritech.net wrote:
> > stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Oh, you advocate the home user installing a Unix server.  I see....
> > >
> > >
> >
> > What's wrong with that?
> >
> > Phil
> >
>
> There is nothing wrong with that at all.  In fact I have done such myself.  I
> guess I should have written "Oh, you advocate all new iMac customers
> installing a Unix server."
>
> My point was that a Unix server is not a practical backup solution for many
> potential iMac customers, many of whom supposedly are buying their first
> computer.  (but most of whom, many suspect, are merely die-hard Mac fanatics
> buying another Mac).
>
> Please read what I put in that article in context (which you've prevented
> anybody reading this from doing by quoting my single line)
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum
>

Just checked Apple's pages, and Syquest, Iomega, and Imation are making SparQ,
Zip, and Superdisk drives (respectively) for the USB, all due very shortly.

Joe Yuska

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum

######

From: yuska@bgs.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 18:03:52 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
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References: <shokwave-1908981114460001@as1-dialup-68.io.com> <6rf71v$ka6@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <35DDEA6F.76D3E845@plano.net> <6rpp7o$crc$1@cleavage.canuck.com>
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In article <6rpp7o$crc$1@cleavage.canuck.com>,
  jonathan@canuck.com (Victor the Cleaner) wrote:
> Charles Richmond (richmond@plano.net) wrote:
>
> : Someone who has more *first* hand knowledge of these designs, please post
> : details.  (...and corrections.)
>
> No first-hand experience, but I've got a sales brochure for the Cray-2 in
front
> of me.  Great pictures.  There's also a book called "The Supermen" that is a
> reasonable lay history of Cray and supers in general.  The book wouldn't have
> suffered from a _little_ more technical discussion, but it Really Sucked in
the
> photographs department.  I wouldn't have minded ten bucks being added to the
cover
> price if it meant some good color plates of Seymour's machines, especially the
3
> (kind of stillborn) and 4 (never finished due to his death).  A couple of
years
> back there were some very cool descriptions of the guts of the 3 and 4 in
> comp.sys.super from some folks who worked there toward the end.
>
> : This thread must *not* go by without mentioning the beautiful and functional
> : designs of Seymour Cray.  One of his well-known designs (I think it is the
> : Cray I) has a group of tall computer cabinets arranged in a "C" shape that
is
> : almost closed.  A couch runs around the outside of this "C".  I understand
> : that the "C" shape allowed wires to be shorter.  It also shows that Mr. Cray
> : had an eye for the aesthetic.
>
> Yes, that was the Cray-1.
>
> : Another of his supercomputers had a petro-chemical coolant that bubbled and
> : oozed around the computer module in what might be a fish tank.  Was this the
> : Cray 2?
>
> The Cray-2 had much the same "C footprint", though it was shorter (four feet
or
> so tall) and lacked the "bench" that had contained the power supply in the
Cray-1.
> The cpu and memory were bathed in flourinert coolant, and visible through
glass
> windows on top and around the periphery.  A separate, spacey cabinet contained
the
> heat exchanger allowing the system to be water-cooled.
>
> Damn straight, though.  Cray was a class act, not only in his architectures,
but
> in the unique ID he brought to the Land of Square Blue Boxes.
>
> --
>     jonathan@canuck.com
>  Canada Connect Corporation    | Jonathan |    Survival Research Laboratories
>         Calgary, AB            |  Levine  |          San Francisco, CA
>    403-777-2025, fax 2026                           vox/fax 415-641-8065
>

His last design for CDC was the 7600, described as a 12-foot cube (yeah I
know it's not twelve feet tall) with a ten foot room inside, Done in walnut
and blue glass. For an excellent tribute to Semour Cray by another giant,
Gordon Bell, see:

http://research.microsoft.com/BARC/GBell/craytalk

Joe "also some good photos there if you look  at the graphics version" Yuska


-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum

######

From: alex*@*rockvax.rockefeller.edu (Alexandre Pechtchanski)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Organization: Rockefeller University Hospital (GCRC), New York
Message-ID: <35e5b25b.15677469@Rockyd>
References: <shokwave-1908981114460001@as1-dialup-68.io.com> <6rf71v$ka6@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <35DDEA6F.76D3E845@plano.net> <6rpp7o$crc$1@cleavage.canuck.com> <6rs9u8$af3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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On Mon, 24 Aug 1998 18:03:52 GMT, yuska@bgs.com wrote:
[ Courtesy cc'ed through e-mail to the quoted author ]

[ big snip ]

>and blue glass. For an excellent tribute to Semour Cray by another giant,
>Gordon Bell, see:
>
>http://research.microsoft.com/BARC/GBell/craytalk

...And just when I thought "look, something useful on Microsoft web site", my
browser returned:

Directory Listing Denied

This Virtual Directory does not allow contents to be listed.

Gee, I wonder what would happen if I used Internet Explorer?

[ When replying, remove *'s from address ]
Alexandre Pechtchanski, Systems Manager, RUH, NY

######

From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 24 Aug 1998 18:39:09 GMT
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <6rsc0d$hgm$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk>
References: <peterk.1qut@combo.ganesha.com>
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On 1998-08-23 peterk@combo.ganesha.com said:
   :I don't think so. With this solution, you still are free to choose a
   :monitor, where you are locked into one single monitor type with the
   :alternative. Amstrad had an 8-bitter done this way called Joyce.
   :It was a big flop, ok perhaps also because its using 3" floppies
   :instead of 3.5" ones.

No it wasn't. The Joyce was the pre-release name for the PCW8256, which
a hell of a lot of people bought - principally because it was the
cheapest, easiest way to get a decent word processor and printer. Many
novels and other books were written for that system, and it still
survives today (albeit in a much modified form, using 3.5" disks, and
with no printer as standard; you can get them for a hundred quid at
Dixon's).
--
Communa (together) we remember...             we'll see you falling
you know soft spoken changes nothing             to sing within her...

######

From: yuska@bgs.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 19:00:13 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Lines: 88
Message-ID: <6rsd7t$f3m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <shokwave-1908981114460001@as1-dialup-68.io.com> <6rf71v$ka6@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <35DDEA6F.76D3E845@plano.net> <6rpp7o$crc$1@cleavage.canuck.com> <6rs9u8$af3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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In article <6rs9u8$af3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
  yuska@bgs.com wrote:
> In article <6rpp7o$crc$1@cleavage.canuck.com>,
>   jonathan@canuck.com (Victor the Cleaner) wrote:
> > Charles Richmond (richmond@plano.net) wrote:
> >
> > : Someone who has more *first* hand knowledge of these designs, please post
> > : details.  (...and corrections.)
> >
> > No first-hand experience, but I've got a sales brochure for the Cray-2 in
> front
> > of me.  Great pictures.  There's also a book called "The Supermen" that is a
> > reasonable lay history of Cray and supers in general.  The book wouldn't
have
> > suffered from a _little_ more technical discussion, but it Really Sucked in
> the
> > photographs department.  I wouldn't have minded ten bucks being added to the
> cover
> > price if it meant some good color plates of Seymour's machines, especially
the
> 3
> > (kind of stillborn) and 4 (never finished due to his death).  A couple of
> years
> > back there were some very cool descriptions of the guts of the 3 and 4 in
> > comp.sys.super from some folks who worked there toward the end.
> >
> > : This thread must *not* go by without mentioning the beautiful and
functional
> > : designs of Seymour Cray.  One of his well-known designs (I think it is the
> > : Cray I) has a group of tall computer cabinets arranged in a "C" shape that
> is
> > : almost closed.  A couch runs around the outside of this "C".  I understand
> > : that the "C" shape allowed wires to be shorter.  It also shows that Mr.
Cray
> > : had an eye for the aesthetic.
> >
> > Yes, that was the Cray-1.
> >
> > : Another of his supercomputers had a petro-chemical coolant that bubbled
and
> > : oozed around the computer module in what might be a fish tank.  Was this
the
> > : Cray 2?
> >
> > The Cray-2 had much the same "C footprint", though it was shorter (four feet
> or
> > so tall) and lacked the "bench" that had contained the power supply in the
> Cray-1.
> > The cpu and memory were bathed in flourinert coolant, and visible through
> glass
> > windows on top and around the periphery.  A separate, spacey cabinet
contained
> the
> > heat exchanger allowing the system to be water-cooled.
> >
> > Damn straight, though.  Cray was a class act, not only in his architectures,
> but
> > in the unique ID he brought to the Land of Square Blue Boxes.
> >
> > --
> >     jonathan@canuck.com
> >  Canada Connect Corporation    | Jonathan |    Survival Research
Laboratories
> >         Calgary, AB            |  Levine  |          San Francisco, CA
> >    403-777-2025, fax 2026                           vox/fax 415-641-8065
> >
>
> His last design for CDC was the 7600, described as a 12-foot cube (yeah I
> know it's not twelve feet tall) with a ten foot room inside, Done in walnut
> and blue glass. For an excellent tribute to Semour Cray by another giant,
> Gordon Bell, see:
>
> http://research.microsoft.com/BARC/GBell/craytalk
>
> Joe "also some good photos there if you look  at the graphics version" Yuska
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum
>

My Bad.     Too little on the mouse paste.  try:

http://research.microsoft.com/BARC/GBell/craytalk/index.htm

Joe "virtual directory may not be listed." Yuska

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum

######

From: jav-2@world.net.att.net (John Varela)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 24 Aug 1998 19:32:17 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Lines: 18
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On Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:08:38, Robert Billing <unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> 
wrote:

> John Varela wrote:
> 
>> I would guess that school labs prohibit removable media because of concern 
about
>> viruses.  Sounds reasonable to me.
 
>  If they were concerned about that, they would simply upgrade to Linux
> and have done with it.

..and the OS holy wars come to afc.  What's next?  Abortion?  Gun control?

--  
            John Varela      Team OS/2
            (delete . between world and net to e-mail me)

######

From: stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 23:37:23 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <6rstfj$4ch$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <shokwave-1908981114460001@as1-dialup-68.io.com> <6rf0eg$q1k@news1.newsguy.com> <shokwave-1908982023480001@as3-dialup-31.io.com> <6rhc4s$moe@news1.newsguy.com> <m37m02jc0l.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch> <6rlg7b$cde$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Pine.GSO.3.95q.980822141246.13985A-100000@nova.kettering.edu> <6rnebl$b4g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Pine.GSO.3.95q.980822202527.2478B-100000@nova.kettering.edu> <ey390kexzuv.fsf@todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk>
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In article <ey390kexzuv.fsf@todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk>,
  Tim Bradshaw <tfb@aiai.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> * lee1089  wrote:
> > Again, most home users I've run across do *not* make backup copies of
> > anything. Why should Apple include something that many people simply do
> > not use? Why should I or anyone else who doesn't use it have to pay for
> > it? I would rather have the choice of buying the add-on removeable drive
> > of my preferences (Zip, floppy, and SuperDisk being the first choices and
> > surely Jaz can't be far off.)
>
> Arguments of the form `most people don't do x, so we shouldn't provide
> x' are silly in general.  15 years ago most people didn't use a window
> system...  Of course, the argument that's really being made here is
> `even given the facility to do x, most people don't do it', and in
> that case it probably makes solid commercial sense not to provide
> facilities for x.  This is how dumbing-down happens: `most of our
> users are too dumb to do x, so in future we'll remove feature x, which
> will mean we only appeal to dumb users, and also make it much harder
> for those users to get smarter'.
>
> > Again, how many floppies would be required to back up this four-hour-a-day
> > text file? At first it would conveniently fit on one but it will quickly
> > grow to be too large to fit on a floppy. Then what? The user will have to
> > buy some type of file segmenting or backup program all just to save one
> > measily file. OTOH this writer can instead use the money they saved by not
> > having a floppy drive to put toward a Zip drive.
>
> Well 1Mb is about 100,000 words at 10 bytes/word.  That's a *lot* of
> typing.  (Unless of course you use MS Word or something, when 1Mb is
> probably about 10 words).
>
> --tim (who backs up everything, including his calculator).
>

That was my point exactly, when earlier in the thread I said that
professional writers, who can spend days and weeks writing a chapter,
generally know better than to just leave their work on the hard drive.	A
floppy diskette gives them an inexpensive and these days quite well known
means of backing their work up, and also moving it around with them.  Some
people in this thread seem to think a "backup" always involves backing up the
whole system, including binaries and config files.  Creative people just need
the means to back up their work, without hanging additional expensive boxes
off the machine or having to hook up to a network and upload their
Intellectual Property and life's work to an unknown server somewhere.  And a
30 cent floppy diskette does that fine and very reliably, provided the
computer manufacturer hasn't decided for them that they "don't need that
feature" and removed as part of their "leading edge" design.

>

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum

######

Message-ID: <35E0CA82.24B8@bellsouth.net>
From: Gwizdak <wazm@bellsouth.net>
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Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
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lee1089@kettering.edu wrote:
> Wait till you get to college. Your dorm will most likely be networked and
> you'll never want to ever see another floppy again. I find it so much
> easier to ftp my files around or to setup shared directories. (FTP is best
> because just about any OS can use FTP.)

True,  my friend setup a server via the ethernet line they supplied to
him,
when he was in college. He would just telnet from the lab, and send his 
files.  


> The iMacs come with built-in 56k modems and 10/100 base T ethernet.
> Basically you have everything you need for a network besides the hub and
> wires. Anyone who bought a lab full of them without installing the network

BAH. If I wanted to buy a network ready computer, I'd go to
www.netwinder.org.
They're only have the price for the base system, preinstalled with
Linux!

> would be incredibly stupid as they are designed to have the network or
> internet access. Obviously, without the network a floppy does become
> somewhat more important.

I highly doubt I'll see an iMAC in my college career in the labs.  And
if
I do, I'm transferring!  

-- 

      Optimizer of life.                   \  /
main(){printf("Na razie.  \n");}  ----------><----------
       -Gwizdak aka Wazm                   /  \
http://www.crowsnest.dynip.com/~wazm

######

From: jeffreyb@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Jeffrey Boulier)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Organization: George Washington University
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In article <6rhcc5$mqm@news1.newsguy.com>,
Michael Wojcik <mww@microfocus.com> wrote:
>Our latest 390 is black with a yellow half-column tacked on the front.
>A couple of us considered pulling the yellow thing off - it's ungodly
>garish - but decided it was probably best not to. 

We named ours "Speedbump". :-)

				--Jeffrey Boulier

######

From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 25 Aug 1998 19:22:51 GMT
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On 1998-08-24 andrewbucko@worldnet.att.net(AndrewD.Bucko) said:
   :Oh, come on!  Can't you think of a better argument?  Are _you_ a
   :elementary/middle/high school student?  I am (high school) and have
   :NEVER, EVER taken work either to school or from school on a
   :diskette, and this is from kindegarten all the way to 11th grade,

Your experience is yours, but mine is different. I have frequently used
floppies as a transfer medium, and got very frustrated when nobody used
5.25" floppies any more except for me; and a cow orker frequently zips
up a few megabytes of Access application to take it home to ork on.

   :in which time I've used Commodore, Apple II, Macintosh and Wintel
   :machines.  The last lab report I made for chemestry was a 1.8MB
   :Word document (large illustration).  One project I made was a 23MB
   :Publisher document (18 pages and a ~lot~ of photos).  Neither a
   :simple lab report (done almost every week) or major project would
   :even fit on a floppy disk anymore.

I can get 1.8Mb on a floppy without zipping, but a 1.8Mb Word document
is highly compressible and would fit on a floppy with very little
trouble indeed. Quite possibly so would the Publisher document. (Were
the photos JPEGs?)

Your ignorance of technology does not negate his argument.
--
Communa (together) we remember...             we'll see you falling
you know soft spoken changes nothing             to sing within her...

######

From: andrewbucko@worldnet.att.net (Andrew D. Bucko)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 25 Aug 1998 19:54:18 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
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On 25 Aug 1998 19:22:51 GMT, lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote:

>I can get 1.8Mb on a floppy without zipping, but a 1.8Mb Word document
>is highly compressible and would fit on a floppy with very little
>trouble indeed. Quite possibly so would the Publisher document. (Were
>the photos JPEGs?)

That would be fine with transfering files between two computers where you have
full access privileges.  Unfournately, most public PCs (ie the ones in my
school) have administration lock outs that prevent users from accessing anything
but what was intended, and the few machines that have WinZip on them do not
allow you to run it.  

>Your ignorance of technology does not negate his argument.

I am not ignorant of technology.  Most of the PCs at my school can not
read/write 1.8MB floppys due to a BIOS problem.  My PC at home couldn't without
flashing its BIOS with an fixed version (which, if you are wondering, I have
done myself and updated it twice after that as well).

--
Andrew D. Bucko

alt.startrek.role-playing FAQ Keeper
http://members.aol.com/trekology/newsgroup.htm

######

From: Mike <knils_IsBackwards@sentex.net>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 00:50:00 -0400
Organization: Sentex Communications
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lee1089@kettering.edu wrote:
> 
> On 24 Aug 1998 writer1@Eng.Sun.COM wrote:
> 
> > In article 100000@nova.kettering.edu, <lee1089@kettering.edu> writes:
> > > On 19 Aug 1998, Bob Morrisette wrote:
> > >
> > > > The coolest design I've seen lately is the Toshiba Equium. It has a door
> > > > that lets you slide out the motherboard and work on it or replace
> > > > it in 30 seconds. It's designed to be a desktop or tower machine.
> > > > Nice lines all around.
> > >
> > > That sounds like the Perfoma 575 I bought about 5 years ago.
> > >
> > You must be kidding.
> 
> Nope. The slide out motherboard that is. It was an all-in-one design with
> a door on the back where you could slide out the entire motherboard to
> change RAM, expansion cards, etc. I believe the design goes all the way
> back to the Color Classic in the late 80's/very early 90's.

He's right.  When I helped my GF upgrade the RAM in her Performa,
I was amazed at how tidy the interior was.  Just a handful of
screws [all the ones you're supposed to remove are philips-type;
the
rest are not] and pull.

It's all right there.

Granted, this didn't include HD upgrades or anything like that.

And besides, I've grown quite fond of the cable-jungle inside my
PC.  :)

--Mike. :)

-- 
As the complexity of chips approaches the | Michael Habicher, 3A
EE, IEEE
  complexity of software, the behaviour   | Ontario, Canada
  of chips approaches the behaviour of    | * To unravel my Email
address,
  software.  --Moore's Lament             | * follow the clue
therein.

######

From: melbert@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 01:52:01 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
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In article <35e412ca.10432401@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
  andrewbucko@worldnet.att.net (Andrew D. Bucko) wrote:
> On 25 Aug 1998 19:22:51 GMT, lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote:
>
> >I can get 1.8Mb on a floppy without zipping, but a 1.8Mb Word document
> >is highly compressible and would fit on a floppy with very little
> >trouble indeed. Quite possibly so would the Publisher document. (Were
> >the photos JPEGs?)
>
> That would be fine with transfering files between two computers where you have
> full access privileges.  Unfournately, most public PCs (ie the ones in my
> school) have administration lock outs that prevent users from accessing
anything
> but what was intended, and the few machines that have WinZip on them do not
> allow you to run it.
>
> >Your ignorance of technology does not negate his argument.
>
> I am not ignorant of technology.  Most of the PCs at my school can not
> read/write 1.8MB floppys due to a BIOS problem.  My PC at home couldn't
without
> flashing its BIOS with an fixed version (which, if you are wondering, I have
> done myself and updated it twice after that as well).
>
> --
> Andrew D. Bucko
>
> alt.startrek.role-playing FAQ Keeper
> http://members.aol.com/trekology/newsgroup.htm

At my nephews' school, the students are required to purchase floppy diskettes
from the instructor, at $1 apiece, because if they brought diskettes from
home they would "get viruses on the PeeCees."  (their mother was led to
wonder what was being done with the hefty profit from the markup on all those
diskettes) Perhaps it was presumptuous to say that your experience is based
on your ignorance.  But do you really want to defend the ignorance of your
schoolmasters so stridently?

>

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum

######

Message-ID: <35E415F6.D820FB97@danet.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:04:39 -0400
From: "J. Benz" <benz@danet.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
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Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
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Joe Morris wrote:

> It's often pointed out that if an object is disassembled and reassembled
> a sufficient number of times you will have enough leftover parts to
> build a second copy.
>

What's really scary is when you have parts left over - and the device works
BETTER than it was designed to...

######

From: The Badger <rhuffma2@gmu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:57:33 -0400
Organization: George Mason University, Fairfax, Virginia, USA
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2 cents apologetically posted via Netscape:

lee1089@kettering.edu wrote:

> but with the proper incryption techniques it can be nearly as safe. If you
> are squeamish about backing up over the net then get a Zip or Jaz drive
> and save yourself several *thousand* floppies. Or get the SuperDisk drive
> and you still have access to floppies if need be but you can also use a
> much more reasonable 120 MB medium.

Or save yourself lots of headaches and time and pick up a SyJet drive.  More reliable
and cost-effective than either a Zip or Jaz.  I work in a campus computer lab and
about 4-5 Zipdisks a semester die here.  The Jaz disks are more reliable, but the
drives break down if you look at them funny.

> I don't know about you but *I* for one
> am not going to sit at the computer for hours swapping floppies to back up
> my data. They don't call them microfloppies for nothing.

One of the most annoying things about not having a removable hard drive is the lack of
a customizable boot disk.  On the Macs here at the lab I have to use a Zip since MacOS
hasn't been bootable from a floppy for some time.

email at rhuffma(number two) at gmu dot edu

#######

From: dg@ (David Given)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 12:18:45 GMT
Organization: I'm organised? Wow!
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In article <35E393F8.D19BDCD@sentex.net>,
Mike  <knils_IsBackwards@sentex.net> wrote:
[...]
>He's right.  When I helped my GF upgrade the RAM in her Performa,
>I was amazed at how tidy the interior was.  Just a handful of
>screws [all the ones you're supposed to remove are philips-type;
>the
>rest are not] and pull.
>
>It's all right there.

Ha! I wish *my* machines were like that.

I replaced the hard drive in my notebook (an aged 386SX/16 Mitac with 1MB;
if anyone knows where I might get a memory upgrade for this thing, I would
be *delighted*). I had to go through this procedure.

1. Remove lid.
2. Unscrew keyboard. Remove.
3. Unscrew keyboard chassis. Remove.
4. Unplug screen.
5. Unscrew video card. Remove.
6. Spend half an hour trying to find something to prop the screen on,
because it was still attached to the computer and the wires weren't long
enough to lay it flat beside the machine.
7. Unscrew unidentified daughterboard. Remove.
8. Unscrew HD chassis. Remove.
9. Unscrew HD from chassis.

And then I had to do it all in reverse... and yes, I did end up with some
screws left over.

-- 
+- David Given ----------------+ 
|  Work: dg@tao.co.uk          | Don't tell any big lies today. Small
|  Play: dgiven@iname.com      | ones can be just as effective.    
+- http://wiredsoc.ml.org/~dg -+ 

######

From: jcmorris@mwunix.mitre.org (Joe Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 26 Aug 1998 13:04:23 GMT
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
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dg@ (David Given) writes:

[disassembly/reassembly steps snipped]

>And then I had to do it all in reverse... and yes, I did end up with some
>screws left over.

It's often pointed out that if an object is disassembled and reassembled
a sufficient number of times you will have enough leftover parts to
build a second copy.

Actually, I do try to avoid this, especially since I get PC systems
from various manufacturers for me to evaluate, and the first thing I
do (before even plugging them in) is to disassemble them to see how
much trouble they will be for our techs to work on.  When I do have
something left over I have to scratch my head to figure out where
I left something out.  It's even more interesting when I've got boxes
from different manufacturers at the same time; right now, for example,
I've got three evaluation machines on my floor plus my permanent
four systems.  The potential for getting the parts (not to mention
disks) mixed up keeps me on my toes...

Joe Morris

######

From: keithlim@pobox.com (keith lim)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:19:33 +0800
Organization: Cthuloops Breakfast Cereal
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<stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us> wrote:

> That was my point exactly, when earlier in the thread I said that
> professional writers, who can spend days and weeks writing a chapter,
> generally know better than to just leave their work on the hard drive.

The iMac is not designed for professional writers or, for that matter,
professional designers or professional programmers or professional
anythings. Professionals would (or should) be using a full desktop or
laptop system (complete with all them cables and peripherals hanging off
it).

If professionals insist on using an iMac (which was not designed for
them in the first place), they had better be prepared to buy all the
other equipment they need, of which a floppy drive is just one of
several items. There is also a Zip drive, and a printer, and a scanner,
and a digital camera, and ....

-- 
keith lim     keithlim@pobox.com     http://pobox.com/~keithlim/
What is a possible question that, when quoted, is its own answer?

######

Date: 26 Aug 98 15:35:47 -0800
From: "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@sky.bus.com>
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
References: <35E393F8.D19BDCD@sentex.net> <904133925.25455.0.nnrp-01.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> <6s114n$9u2@top.mitre.org> <35E415F6.D820FB97@danet.com> <35e5715b.23458811@Rockyd>
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In article <35e5715b.23458811@Rockyd> alex*@*rockvax.rockefeller.edu
(Alexandre Pechtchanski) writes:

>On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:04:39 -0400, "J. Benz" <benz@danet.com> wrote:
>
>>Joe Morris wrote:
>>
>>> It's often pointed out that if an object is disassembled and
>>> reassembled a sufficient number of times you will have enough
>>> leftover parts to build a second copy.
>>
>>What's really scary is when you have parts left over - and the
>>device works BETTER than it was designed to...
>
>Which reminds me of an old TV set my grandparents used to have.
>This box was old the first time I saw it (mumble '50es), so the
>only repairman who would touch it was this old guy...  Anyway,
>when TV hiccuped, this guy used to just cut a part off (I _think_
>he also used to short the leads if the cut part was a resistor,
>but this may be a later revision ;-) , and TV started to work
>better then before ;-)

Sort of sounds like surgery, doesn't it?  Remove the appendix,
the spleen, whatever...  Maybe that TV had grown tumors.

--
cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs)
Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply.

######

From: newsbait@lucifer.geecs.org (Josh Higham)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 19:47:36 -0400
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
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In article <35E43065.6A46D84F@gmu.edu>, The Badger <rhuffma2@gmu.edu> wrote:

> > I don't know about you but *I* for one
> > am not going to sit at the computer for hours swapping floppies to back up
> > my data. They don't call them microfloppies for nothing.
> 
> One of the most annoying things about not having a removable hard drive
is the > lack of a customizable boot disk.  On the Macs here at the lab I
have to use a > Zip since MacOS hasn't been bootable from a floppy for
some time.

I have a System 8.1 boot floppy sitting in my desk drawer (since I was
stupid enough to go to HFS+ without getting the 8.1 System CD that can
actually read the HD :-), which contains a bootable system, as well as
Disk First Aid and Drive Setup - provided by Apple for morons like me.

(Caveat:  I work for User Support, so in a dire emergency I can use the
8.1 CD from work)

-- 
newsbait@lucifer.geecs.org
This address is read, but is here to allow me to catalog my spam
mail, so it may have a slow response time.

######

From: alex*@*rockvax.rockefeller.edu (Alexandre Pechtchanski)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Organization: Rockefeller University Hospital (GCRC), New York
Message-ID: <35e5715b.23458811@Rockyd>
References: <Pine.GSO.3.95q.980819195513.21086A-100000@nova.kettering.edu> <6rs4h9$2p1$2@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <Pine.GSO.3.95q.980824164956.6418A-100000@nova.kettering.edu> <35E393F8.D19BDCD@sentex.net> <904133925.25455.0.nnrp-01.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> <6s114n$9u2@top.mitre.org> <35E415F6.D820FB97@danet.com>
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On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:04:39 -0400, "J. Benz" <benz@danet.com> wrote:

>Joe Morris wrote:
>
>> It's often pointed out that if an object is disassembled and reassembled
>> a sufficient number of times you will have enough leftover parts to
>> build a second copy.
>>
>
>What's really scary is when you have parts left over - and the device works
>BETTER than it was designed to...

Which reminds me of an old TV set my grandparents used to have.  This box was
old the first time I saw it (mumble '50es), so the only repairman who would
touch it was this old guy...  Anyway, when TV hiccuped, this guy used to just
cut a part off (I _think_ he also used to short the leads if the cut part was a
resistor, but this may be a later revision ;-) , and TV started to work better
then before ;-)

[ When replying, remove *'s from address ]
Alexandre Pechtchanski, Systems Manager, RUH, NY

######

From: andrewbucko@worldnet.att.net (Andrew D. Bucko)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 26 Aug 1998 22:49:31 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
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On Mon, 24 Aug 1998 16:51:29 -0400, <lee1089@kettering.edu> wrote:

>> > > The coolest design I've seen lately is the Toshiba Equium. It has a door
>> > > that lets you slide out the motherboard and work on it or replace
>> > > it in 30 seconds. It's designed to be a desktop or tower machine.
>> > > Nice lines all around.

>> > That sounds like the Perfoma 575 I bought about 5 years ago.

>> You must be kidding.

>Nope. The slide out motherboard that is. It was an all-in-one design with
>a door on the back where you could slide out the entire motherboard to
>change RAM, expansion cards, etc. I believe the design goes all the way
>back to the Color Classic in the late 80's/very early 90's.

In a way, that design goes all the way back to the original Macintosh and the
ither "classic" form Macs (Plus, SE, Classic).  Once you got the cover off, you
slide the logic board out.  There were no screws holding the board on, just the
back of the case holding it in place.

--
Andrew D. Bucko

alt.startrek.role-playing FAQ Keeper
http://members.aol.com/trekology/newsgroup.htm

######

From: jnickelsen@acm.org (Juergen Nickelsen)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 01:22:09 +0200
Organization: [Posted via] Interactive Networx
Lines: 16
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Joe Morris <jcmorris@mwunix.mitre.org> wrote:

> If you've ever been in a facility that installed computers in a room
> without raised floors (or trenches) then you know just how difficult it is
> to move around, because you're always tripping on the cables.  Also, with
> the cables running under the floor they can be run more directly than if
> they have to dodge the various boxes.

Well, yes. On the other hand, when you try to follow some cables in the
tangle that has been gathering under a raised floor for several years,
you might come to the conclusion that (a) you don't really like moving
around on your knees for more than a few minutes and (b) someone else
should do this. :-)

-- 
Juergen Nickelsen

######

Date: 27 Aug 98 10:55:55 -0800
From: "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@sky.bus.com>
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
References: <shokwave-1908981114460001@as1-dialup-68.io.com> <6rf71v$ka6@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <6rfejv$3ig@top.mitre.org> <1dee6o3.16kh1wz1x1vmalN@n34-89.berlin.snafu.de> <6s3ko3$rgg@top.mitre.org>
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In article <6s3ko3$rgg@top.mitre.org> jcmorris@mwunix.mitre.org
(Joe Morris) writes:

>Another way to waste time looking under the floor was trying to figure
>out just which circuit breaker feeds which power outlet.  Even with the
>most complete practice of clearly marking outlets when they are installed,
>over the years the cables get moved to different breaker positions as
>the computer room is reconfigured, and somehow nobody ever updated the
>markings on the outlet boxes under the floor.

Even if everything is marked, your average electrician might still
ignore it and fall back on the time-tested method of turning off
breakers and seeing which lights go out.  When those lights happen
to be the ones on the front panel of the CPU, you get to explain
to all the users exactly why their terminals are down, while you're
restoring from backups and re-running the morning's jobs.

In an attempt to avoid a recurrence, I supplemented the "COMPUTER
POWER ONLY" placard on the breaker box with others saying things
like "PAWS OFF - THIS MEANS YOU."  But I still felt much better
if I stood beside it whenever the electricians came in, to make
sure that they limited their activities to the adjacent panel
that powered lights, outlets, etc.

--
cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs)
Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply.

######

From: stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 11:47:01 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Lines: 76
Message-ID: <6s3gvl$t6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.3.95q.980819195513.21086A-100000@nova.kettering.edu> <6rs4h9$2p1$2@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <Pine.GSO.3.95q.980824164956.6418A-100000@nova.kettering.edu> <35e48f61.429199@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.238.140.226
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In article <35e48f61.429199@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
  andrewbucko@worldnet.att.net (Andrew D. Bucko) wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Aug 1998 16:51:29 -0400, <lee1089@kettering.edu> wrote:
>
> >> > > The coolest design I've seen lately is the Toshiba Equium. It has a
door
> >> > > that lets you slide out the motherboard and work on it or replace
> >> > > it in 30 seconds. It's designed to be a desktop or tower machine.
> >> > > Nice lines all around.
>
> >> > That sounds like the Perfoma 575 I bought about 5 years ago.
>
> >> You must be kidding.
>
> >Nope. The slide out motherboard that is. It was an all-in-one design with
> >a door on the back where you could slide out the entire motherboard to
> >change RAM, expansion cards, etc. I believe the design goes all the way
> >back to the Color Classic in the late 80's/very early 90's.
>
> In a way, that design goes all the way back to the original Macintosh and the
> ither "classic" form Macs (Plus, SE, Classic).  Once you got the cover off,
you
> slide the logic board out.  There were no screws holding the board on, just
the
> back of the case holding it in place.
>
> --
> Andrew D. Bucko
>
> alt.startrek.role-playing FAQ Keeper
> http://members.aol.com/trekology/newsgroup.htm
>

The sort of design being lauded here is fine, but it locks you into a
specific brand of hardware.  Since I am assuming that Toshiba will not sell
low-cost cases to slide the old motherboard being removed from, the old
motherboard basically becomes scrap.  In many organizations computers are
"handed down" throughout the organization.  This limits the number of new
machines that need to be ordered.  So the "improved upgrade" possible with
the new Toshiba Equim sounds like a vehicle for Toshiba selling more all-new
machines, preventing re-use of the old motherboard, etc.  True "clone"
hardware generally makes use of "lowest common denominator" footprints for
motherboards, and other commodity PC components.  While there is some
incresed inflexibility, businesses then aren't locked into getting all
upgrades for last year's hardware investment from the single original source.
 There are tradeoffs all over the place in this business.  I just maintain
that the Toshiba Equium design makes some of the flexibility that allows
these tradeoffs impossible, increases the amount of hardware that has to be
scrapped, and ultimately reduces the possible cost savings.  People who
invest in Toshiba Equium hardware are relying on the hope that Toshiba will
continue to produce this hardware family, for instance.  I can remember
"Northgate" motherboards of years back now where they placed the CPU on a
daughterboard, so that processor upgrades involved just replacing the
daughterboard.	Where is Northgate now?  It seems that essentially all
purchasers ended up with was motherboards with more redundant connectors,
which translates into lower reliability, greater initial cost, and higher
scrap per upgrade.  It's definitely a marketing driven design, not a
techonological innovation.

In the clone market there have been innumerable innovative case designs which
make it easier to access the motherboard.  Again, the diversity of hardware
available in the clone market makes this possible.  It isn't even worth
discussing in this vein whatever designs Apple has made for their various
closed proprietary designs.  You've already made your deal with the devil
when you buy completely proprietary hardware.

I'll add here that I'm not a Wintel fanatic.  There are now open software
platforms that will run on all of the legacy hardware.  I can put Linux on all
the platforms being discussed in this thread, so hardware choices become a
matter more of interchangability, multiple sources, and price.  Proprietary
closed hardware designs, on whatever flavor, become one of the remaining
barriers, not a virtue.


-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum

######

From: stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 11:47:01 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Lines: 76
Message-ID: <6s3gvl$t6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.3.95q.980819195513.21086A-100000@nova.kettering.edu> <6rs4h9$2p1$2@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <Pine.GSO.3.95q.980824164956.6418A-100000@nova.kettering.edu> <35e48f61.429199@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.238.140.226
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Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!204.238.120.130!news-feeds.jump.net!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail

In article <35e48f61.429199@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
  andrewbucko@worldnet.att.net (Andrew D. Bucko) wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Aug 1998 16:51:29 -0400, <lee1089@kettering.edu> wrote:
>
> >> > > The coolest design I've seen lately is the Toshiba Equium. It has a
door
> >> > > that lets you slide out the motherboard and work on it or replace
> >> > > it in 30 seconds. It's designed to be a desktop or tower machine.
> >> > > Nice lines all around.
>
> >> > That sounds like the Perfoma 575 I bought about 5 years ago.
>
> >> You must be kidding.
>
> >Nope. The slide out motherboard that is. It was an all-in-one design with
> >a door on the back where you could slide out the entire motherboard to
> >change RAM, expansion cards, etc. I believe the design goes all the way
> >back to the Color Classic in the late 80's/very early 90's.
>
> In a way, that design goes all the way back to the original Macintosh and the
> ither "classic" form Macs (Plus, SE, Classic).  Once you got the cover off,
you
> slide the logic board out.  There were no screws holding the board on, just
the
> back of the case holding it in place.
>
> --
> Andrew D. Bucko
>
> alt.startrek.role-playing FAQ Keeper
> http://members.aol.com/trekology/newsgroup.htm
>

The sort of design being lauded here is fine, but it locks you into a
specific brand of hardware.  Since I am assuming that Toshiba will not sell
low-cost cases to slide the old motherboard being removed from, the old
motherboard basically becomes scrap.  In many organizations computers are
"handed down" throughout the organization.  This limits the number of new
machines that need to be ordered.  So the "improved upgrade" possible with
the new Toshiba Equim sounds like a vehicle for Toshiba selling more all-new
machines, preventing re-use of the old motherboard, etc.  True "clone"
hardware generally makes use of "lowest common denominator" footprints for
motherboards, and other commodity PC components.  While there is some
incresed inflexibility, businesses then aren't locked into getting all
upgrades for last year's hardware investment from the single original source.
 There are tradeoffs all over the place in this business.  I just maintain
that the Toshiba Equium design makes some of the flexibility that allows
these tradeoffs impossible, increases the amount of hardware that has to be
scrapped, and ultimately reduces the possible cost savings.  People who
invest in Toshiba Equium hardware are relying on the hope that Toshiba will
continue to produce this hardware family, for instance.  I can remember
"Northgate" motherboards of years back now where they placed the CPU on a
daughterboard, so that processor upgrades involved just replacing the
daughterboard.	Where is Northgate now?  It seems that essentially all
purchasers ended up with was motherboards with more redundant connectors,
which translates into lower reliability, greater initial cost, and higher
scrap per upgrade.  It's definitely a marketing driven design, not a
techonological innovation.

In the clone market there have been innumerable innovative case designs which
make it easier to access the motherboard.  Again, the diversity of hardware
available in the clone market makes this possible.  It isn't even worth
discussing in this vein whatever designs Apple has made for their various
closed proprietary designs.  You've already made your deal with the devil
when you buy completely proprietary hardware.

I'll add here that I'm not a Wintel fanatic.  There are now open software
platforms that will run on all of the legacy hardware.  I can put Linux on all
the platforms being discussed in this thread, so hardware choices become a
matter more of interchangability, multiple sources, and price.  Proprietary
closed hardware designs, on whatever flavor, become one of the remaining
barriers, not a virtue.


-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum

######

From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 98 12:56:01 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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References: <shokwave-1908981114460001@as1-dialup-68.io.com> <6rf71v$ka6@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <6rfejv$3ig@top.mitre.org> <1dee6o3.16kh1wz1x1vmalN@n34-89.berlin.snafu.de>
NNTP-Posting-Host: d2.dial-17.mbo.ma.ultra.net
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In article <1dee6o3.16kh1wz1x1vmalN@n34-89.berlin.snafu.de>,
   jnickelsen@acm.org (Juergen Nickelsen) wrote:
>Joe Morris <jcmorris@mwunix.mitre.org> wrote:
>
>> If you've ever been in a facility that installed computers in a room
>> without raised floors (or trenches) then you know just how difficult it 
is
>> to move around, because you're always tripping on the cables.  Also, 
with
>> the cables running under the floor they can be run more directly than if
>> they have to dodge the various boxes.
>
>Well, yes. On the other hand, when you try to follow some cables in the
>tangle that has been gathering under a raised floor for several years,
>you might come to the conclusion that (a) you don't really like moving
>around on your knees for more than a few minutes and (b) someone else
>should do this. :-)
>
Chuckle.  At least there was a length limit to most of those cables.
In our plant the comm wiring to the offices were put in the space
above the ceiling.  Our group was the OS development group so the
guys were terribly impatient with work orders not getting done in
time for soft/hardware testing.  They did their own stringing.
When the powers-that-be decided to remodel our environment (one
of the techniques to keep up from being productive), the wiring
in the ceiling became a part of the remodeling effort.  I don't
remember how many guys nor how long it took them to map the
wiring (people were afraid to pull anything just in case it
was an integral part of the systems we were designing).  They
finally gave up rearranging the ceiling with the excuse that
nobody saw it anyway.

/BAH


Sigh! - Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

######

From: andrewbucko@worldnet.att.net (Andrew D. Bucko)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 27 Aug 1998 14:18:21 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
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On Thu, 27 Aug 1998 11:47:01 GMT, stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us wrote:

> [snip about propriatary designs/upgrades]

>In the clone market there have been innumerable innovative case designs which
>make it easier to access the motherboard.  Again, the diversity of hardware
>available in the clone market makes this possible.  It isn't even worth
>discussing in this vein whatever designs Apple has made for their various
>closed proprietary designs.  You've already made your deal with the devil
>when you buy completely proprietary hardware.

If you go shopping around for a Wintel computer today, is there really much that
seperates a Dell, Gateway, Micron, or "brand x"?  Not really.  They are really
all the same: an Intel computer with someone else's name on it.  In a market
where everyone is selling the same hardware, just with their names on it, what
does a particular brand offer the customer?  Not much.  You're buying an
off-the-shelf case, an off-the-shelf processor, an off-the-shelf disk, and
everything else off-the-shelf.  If you want that kind of system, you might as
well just build one yourself since you'd save a little money and get the parts
that you wanted.  But in the retail market, computer makers have to (or are
going to have to) add something to the system to make someone want to buy it: a
design that looks good, not one that just takes up space.

--
Andrew D. Bucko

alt.startrek.role-playing FAQ Keeper
http://members.aol.com/trekology/newsgroup.htm

######

From: ajsulliv@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA (Andrew J. Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 27 Aug 1998 16:16:02 -0400
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.
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In article <6rstfj$4ch$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
 <stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us> wrote:

>professional writers, who can spend days and weeks writing a chapter,
>generally know better than to just leave their work on the hard drive.	

Not the writers I know!  If only I had a nickel for each wail I've heard
which has the propositional content, "I lost it all!"

A.
-- 
Andrew Sullivan
<ajsulliv@mcmaster.ca> <---- worse
<asullivan@sprint.ca>  <---- better

######

From: colincampbell@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 19:36:23 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
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In article <6s3otu$69k$2@strato.ultra.net>,
  jmfbahciv@aol.com reminisced thusly:

> Chuckle.  At least there was a length limit to most of those cables.
> In our plant the comm wiring to the offices were put in the space
> above the ceiling.  Our group was the OS development group so the
> guys were terribly impatient with work orders not getting done in
> time for soft/hardware testing.  They did their own stringing.
> When the powers-that-be decided to remodel our environment (one
> of the techniques to keep up from being productive), the wiring
> in the ceiling became a part of the remodeling effort.  I don't
> remember how many guys nor how long it took them to map the
> wiring (people were afraid to pull anything just in case it
> was an integral part of the systems we were designing).  They
> finally gave up rearranging the ceiling with the excuse that
> nobody saw it anyway.
>
> /BAH

I had occasion to run some coax from our computer room on the second floor of
a building, to the far end of the ground floor. Going through the floor was a
bit of a problem 'til I found a hole where some abandoned conduit went
through, into the dropped ceiuling below. Perfect, says I and carried on. The
cable I was running, RG-62 with the usual BNC conectors IIRC, was for a
backboned run of terminals off my Sperry Mapper 10, and had to be terminated
at both ends. I ran the ground floor segment, installed terminals, went into
the ceiling where the upstairs end came out, made my connection and started
to check screens. To my shock, I could get a poll only as far as the next to
last terminal upstairs. After an hour or so of swearing, I found out that 1.
a terminal acted as a terminator or a device but not both, depending on the
presence of a real terminator, and 2. that the previous tenants of the
building had abandoned the coax cabling for their radio antenna or something
of the sort. It was RG-59 and again BNC. Once I found the proper cable in the
ground floor ceiling, everything worked like magic!


--
Ecc. 12:13-14

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum

######

From: kdoherty+usenet@sasami.jurai.net (Kevin Doherty)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 27 Aug 1998 20:28:44 GMT
Organization: RCN Internet
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Thus spake Gwizdak <wazm@bellsouth.net> in 
 <35DF68B7.285C@bellsouth.net>(Mon, 24 Aug 1998 01:05:23 GMT):
>Michael Wojcik wrote:
>> And even if I were to concede this point, is it really an advantage
>> for the iMac to be more suitable for a certain style of regimented
>> school lab than for other sorts of users?
>The iMac would not be very suitable for a programming course in 
>a school lab.  No,  the better choice would be the system on
>display at www.netwinder.org.  It's a RISC system that comes
>preinstalled with Linux.  Only half the price of the iMac.
>Also built in with ethernet and 10baseT cards as well.

The Netwinder doesn't come with a monitor, keyboard, or mouse. These would
push up the price by a good bit, even for the barest combination. Also, the
cheapest Netwinder costs 699$, which is more than half of iMac's 1299$
pricetag. Not to mention that I believe iMac comes with ethernet support
as well. 

This isn't to say I don't like the Netwinder or that I don't think it would
be a good platform for a programming course, just clarifying that it's not
as amazing as implied. :)

--
Kevin Doherty, kdoherty@jurai.net
"Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind."
       -- Rincewind (from _Eric_)

######

From: stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 01:30:10 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
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In article <slrn6ubg88.4pr.kdoherty+usenet@sasami.jurai.net>,
  kdoherty+usenet@sasami.jurai.net wrote:
> Thus spake Gwizdak <wazm@bellsouth.net> in
>  <35DF68B7.285C@bellsouth.net>(Mon, 24 Aug 1998 01:05:23 GMT):
> >Michael Wojcik wrote:
> >> And even if I were to concede this point, is it really an advantage
> >> for the iMac to be more suitable for a certain style of regimented
> >> school lab than for other sorts of users?
> >The iMac would not be very suitable for a programming course in
> >a school lab.  No,  the better choice would be the system on
> >display at www.netwinder.org.  It's a RISC system that comes
> >preinstalled with Linux.  Only half the price of the iMac.
> >Also built in with ethernet and 10baseT cards as well.
>
> The Netwinder doesn't come with a monitor, keyboard, or mouse. These would
> push up the price by a good bit, even for the barest combination. Also, the
> cheapest Netwinder costs 699$, which is more than half of iMac's 1299$
> pricetag. Not to mention that I believe iMac comes with ethernet support
> as well.

The NetWinder comes complete with keyboard and mouse.  Where did you hear
otherwise?  (they didn't follow the traditional Apple "keyboards are extra"
pricing strategy)

It also has a standard VGA connector on it, not a proprietary $Apple$ one, so
a monitor is as little as $140 additional.  It has two built-in ethernet
ports, one is 10/100 the second is 10.

>
> This isn't to say I don't like the Netwinder or that I don't think it would
> be a good platform for a programming course, just clarifying that it's not
> as amazing as implied. :)
>
> --
> Kevin Doherty, kdoherty@jurai.net
> "Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind."
>        -- Rincewind (from _Eric_)
>

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum

######

From: David Scheidt <dscheidt@enteract.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 28 Aug 1998 02:05:40 GMT
Organization: EnterAct L.L.C. Turbo-Elite News Server
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stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us wrote:
: It also has a standard VGA connector on it, not a proprietary $Apple$ one, so
: a monitor is as little as $140 additional.  It has two built-in ethernet

For the last several years, Macs have supported {s}VGA.  In fact, the Mac I am 
using to compose this, a quadra 605, which dates from 1993, has a SVGA monitor
attached to it.  You just need an adapter for the cable.  If you buy a nice 
monitor, it probably comes with one, or at least they will give you one if you
ask.  If you have bought a really cheap one, you might have to buy or build the
adapter, but they don't cost much.  I can't say for sure that the Imac is this
way, not having touched one.
-- 
David Scheidt  <dscheidt@enteract.com> 
The presumption of the flamers is, I assume, that folks barging in to AFU with
tired old stories and off-topic drivel have already ignored the polite and 
subtle clues, and require a thwack with the clue-by-four. -- Andrew Reid

######

From: hmn@realtime.net (Hung Michael Nguyen)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 28 Aug 1998 10:37:37 -0500
Organization: Real/Time Communications - Bob Gustwick and Associates
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In article <6s3gvl$t6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
 <stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us> wrote:
>I'll add here that I'm not a Wintel fanatic.  There are now open software
>platforms that will run on all of the legacy hardware.  I can put Linux on all
>the platforms being discussed in this thread, so hardware choices become a
>matter more of interchangability, multiple sources, and price.  Proprietary
>closed hardware designs, on whatever flavor, become one of the remaining
>barriers, not a virtue.

I largely agree. However, some people (me included) also want something that
looks nice or has good design. You can only take so many lookalike (and 
sometimes ugly and cheap) AT(X) style cases. Personally, I like the Equims
since they can be used as a slimline desktop or even hung on my cube wall.
Minitowers are usually unnecessary. My favorite computers from a case/chassis
design aspect are the Sun pizza boxes (e.g. Sparc 1/2/4/5/10/20), the HP
712 (the only moving part in there is the hard disk, so it's very quiet), and
of course the NeXTstations. In all cases slim and elegant.

Mike.

######

From: tomi@valpak.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 13:22:00 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
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stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us wrote:

> The NetWinder comes complete with keyboard and mouse.  Where did you hear
> otherwise?  (they didn't follow the traditional Apple "keyboards are extra"
> pricing strategy)
>
> It also has a standard VGA connector on it, not a proprietary $Apple$ one, so
> a monitor is as little as $140 additional.  It has two built-in ethernet
> ports, one is 10/100 the second is 10.

Er, the iMac comes with a keyboard and mouse, too.

And, as has already been pointed out, the Apple monitor ports support just
about any monitor you choose to connect to it - they are simply DB-15
connectors instead of HD-15 connectors. PC's likely used HD-15 so as to
reduce confusion with the parallel or serial port connectors, some of which
were/are DB-15. The adapter for DB-15 to HD-15 that also allows you to turn
on the sense lines to tell the Mac what resolution the monitor supports,
costs about $10.

The iMac has a DB-15 internally and will drive a 21" monitor at millions of
colors and 1152x870 with the right amount of VRAM.

Anyway, when talking about proprietary $olutions, please remember that the
industry is filled with them. No company in today's computer market is
innocent of this. Proprietary = controlled by a single vendor. Proprietary
does not mean "not the standard". Any technology that is
determined/maintained by a third party standards organization like IEEE is
considered open or non-proprietary. Some would consider technologies like PCI
non-proprietary since they are managed by a consortium of companies (of which
Apple is a member).

Nowadays, Apple is looking at and using more non-proprietary pieces than ever
in their machines. The Windows OSs for PC's the MacOS are both proprietary,
but they both share a great deal of hardware components now.

BTW, have you ever actually looked at the quality of a $140 monitor? The
eyestrain and glasses costs would be enough to warrant more expenditure.

There. Now I feel better.
-Tom

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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######

From: kdoherty+usenet@sasami.jurai.net (Kevin Doherty)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 28 Aug 1998 15:52:50 GMT
Organization: RCN Internet
Lines: 25
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Thus spake stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us <stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us> in 
     <6s5173$sig$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>(Fri, 28 Aug 1998 01:30:10 GMT):
>In article <slrn6ubg88.4pr.kdoherty+usenet@sasami.jurai.net>,
>  kdoherty+usenet@sasami.jurai.net wrote:
>> The Netwinder doesn't come with a monitor, keyboard, or mouse. These would
>> push up the price by a good bit, even for the barest combination. Also, the
>> cheapest Netwinder costs 699$, which is more than half of iMac's 1299$
>> pricetag. Not to mention that I believe iMac comes with ethernet support
>> as well.
>The NetWinder comes complete with keyboard and mouse.  Where did you hear

I went to Corel's site, and looked at the stats on one. I noticed the
keyboard and mouse ports listed but not the keyboard and mouse. If I 
overlooked something or just made an invalid assumption I apologize.

>It also has a standard VGA connector on it, not a proprietary $Apple$ one, so
>a monitor is as little as $140 additional.  

140 + 699 = 839, which is a fair bit more than the 650 which is half of the
iMac's price (which was the primary point I was trying to make). :)

--
Kevin Doherty, kdoherty@jurai.net
"Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind."
       -- Rincewind (from _Eric_)

######

Message-ID: <35E7CE93.C03DC752@home.com>
From: Ed Thelen <ethelen@home.com>
Reply-To: ethelen@home.com
Organization: @Home Network
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Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
References: <shokwave-1908981114460001@as1-dialup-68.io.com> <Pine.GSO.3.95q.980822202527.2478B-100000@nova.kettering.edu> <ey390kexzuv.fsf@todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk> <6rstfj$4ch$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6s4eq2$3tr@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA>
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I got a novel theory why Steve Jobs HATES removable media 

    - Jealousy

Steve Wasnick (Ok, i kant spell polish) did a real
break through design to put a floppy on the Apple II.

Really put Apple ahead of the pack - serious stuff.

Wos got a lot of very favorable publicity.

Later Steve Jobs chased Wos out of Apple, 
then started re-writting history about what a 
great designer Jobs is/was.

Ed Thelen


Andrew J. Sullivan wrote:
> 
> In article <6rstfj$4ch$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
>  <stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us> wrote:
> 
> >professional writers, who can spend days and weeks writing a chapter,
> >generally know better than to just leave their work on the hard drive.
> 
> Not the writers I know!  If only I had a nickel for each wail I've heard
> which has the propositional content, "I lost it all!"
> 
> A.
> --
> Andrew Sullivan
> <ajsulliv@mcmaster.ca> <---- worse
> <asullivan@sprint.ca>  <---- better

######

From: "Rugrat" <peter.verdon@virgin.net>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 29 Aug 1998 14:33:11 GMT
Organization: Virgin News Service
Message-ID: <01bdd356$5d69b9a0$LocalHost@twkeckuj>
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melbert@my-dejanews.com wrote in article 
> the few machines that have WinZip on them do not
> allow you to run it.
Make self-extracting files, then!

######

From: "Rugrat" <peter.verdon@virgin.net>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 29 Aug 1998 14:33:14 GMT
Organization: Virgin News Service
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> In article <6ria45$pge$1@sue.cc.uregina.ca> bayko@borealis.cs.uregina.ca
(John  Bayko) writes:
> >
> >    For very low cost, user-proof systems, the only way to minimise
> >pieces is to put the CPU in the same case as either the monitor or the
> >keyboard, the keyboard option is worse (Amiga? ST?).

Plus, if you put all the working bits in the keyboard, you end up with a
keybord that is far too high to type on comfortably unless you get a
special desk with a cut-down section that lowers the top of the box to
normal keyboard height. 

There was one IBM machien that had a 4" high keyboard, despite having all
the bits in another box. Don't know why..

Rugrat

######

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
References: <shokwave-1908981114460001@as1-dialup-68.io.com> <35DF68B7.285C@bellsouth.net> <slrn6ubg88.4pr.kdoherty+usenet@sasami.jurai.net> <6s5173$sig$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach)
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In article <6s5173$sig$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
 <stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us> wrote:
>The NetWinder comes complete with keyboard and mouse.  Where did you hear
>otherwise?  (they didn't follow the traditional Apple "keyboards are extra"
>pricing strategy)

Apple hasn't done that in *years*.

Of course, I have to buy a keyboard (yay Kinesis!) for every new computer
anyway.

>It also has a standard VGA connector on it, not a proprietary $Apple$ one, so
>a monitor is as little as $140 additional.  It has two built-in ethernet
>ports, one is 10/100 the second is 10.

Uhm.  It may come as a complete shock, but adapters to connect monitors to
Apple-type video ports are essentially free with breakfast cereal.

I don't think anything with a well-published and documented spec, sufficiently
so that monitor vendors frequently bundle the adapter with their monitors,
counts as "proprietary".

-s
-- 
Copyright '98, All rights reserved.  Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net
C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter.  Boycott Spamazon!
Seeking interesting programming projects.  No recruiters need apply.
Visit my new ISP <URL:http://www.plethora.net/> --- More Net, Less Spam!

######

From: jonathan@canuck.com (Victor the Cleaner)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 30 Aug 1998 17:04:59 GMT
Organization: Canada Connect Corp.
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Hung Michael Nguyen (hmn@realtime.net) wrote:

: I largely agree. However, some people (me included) also want something that
: looks nice or has good design. You can only take so many lookalike (and 
: sometimes ugly and cheap) AT(X) style cases. Personally, I like the Equims
: since they can be used as a slimline desktop or even hung on my cube wall.
: Minitowers are usually unnecessary. My favorite computers from a case/chassis
: design aspect are the Sun pizza boxes (e.g. Sparc 1/2/4/5/10/20), the HP
: 712 (the only moving part in there is the hard disk, so it's very quiet), and
: of course the NeXTstations. In all cases slim and elegant.

As I've said in previous posts (though perhaps not to this group...), "slim"
to me doesn't necessarily equate with "elegant".  My favorite machine is the
purple cube Indigo, for reasons I can illustrate by removing a single screw.

However, since cheap-peecee cases have been mentioned, it comes to mind that their 
lack of ID or aesthetic value might be reconsidered from a utilitarian standpoint.
The only peecee case I own, or have any interest in owning (at least, until I get 
around to moving to an atx ff mb) is a cheap old clone fullsize tower.  What's 
unusual about it is that years ago I took it to the wonderful chap who does my 
custom metalwork, Bernie the Tinbasher.  I had him saw it in two, rotate the top 
half 180 degrees around the vertical axis, and weld it back together.  The result 
is a chassis with the drives above and cables below, all on the FRONT of the case.
No more reaching/fumbling/searching/skinning around the back of the case for me,
folks.

--
    jonathan@canuck.com
 Canada Connect Corporation    | Jonathan |    Survival Research Laboratories
        Calgary, AB            |  Levine  |          San Francisco, CA
   403-777-2025, fax 2026                           vox/fax 415-641-8065

######

From: tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 31 Aug 1998 16:38:03 GMT
Organization: Mechanist Industries
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John Varela (jav-2@world.net.att.net) wrote:
: On Sun, 23 Aug 1998 15:54:53, mww@microfocus.com (Michael Wojcik) wrote:

: > at Stanford.  Denying access to removable media, however common, cost-
: > effective, or convenient, is suspect in my book.

: I would guess that school labs prohibit removable media because of concern about
: viruses.  Sounds reasonable to me.

But, if the computers are networked in any way, ultimately pointless.

--
Tom Harrington --------- tph@rmii.com -------- http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph
      "I would like to nominate Tom Harrington for Usenet sainthood!"
                -Leo G. Simonetta (arclgs@langate.gsu.edu)
Cookie's Revenge: ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/tph/cookie/cookies-revenge.sit.hqx

######

From: tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: 31 Aug 1998 16:55:39 GMT
Organization: Mechanist Industries
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Alexandre Pechtchanski (alex*@*rockvax.rockefeller.edu) wrote:
: On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:04:39 -0400, "J. Benz" <benz@danet.com> wrote:
: >What's really scary is when you have parts left over - and the device works
: >BETTER than it was designed to...

: Which reminds me of an old TV set my grandparents used to have.  This box was
: old the first time I saw it (mumble '50es), so the only repairman who would
: touch it was this old guy...  Anyway, when TV hiccuped, this guy used to just
: cut a part off (I _think_ he also used to short the leads if the cut part was a
: resistor, but this may be a later revision ;-) , and TV started to work better
: then before ;-)

Do you happen to recall what brand this TV was?  This sounds a lot like
the story of Earl "Madman" Muntz, who made TVs in the 1950s.  Reportedly,
he'd visit his circuit designers, examine the schematics, and then start
snipping things out left and right until the picture started to degrade.
Then he'd tell them to add in that last snipped part.

The full story's at <http://www.national.com/rap/Story/0,1008,17,00.htm>.

Another one (with images unfortunately missing) is at 
<http://www.hickory.net/malco/8track/muntz.html>

Muntz was also apparently the inventor of the 4-track (audio) tape, a
precursor to 8-track systems.

--
Tom Harrington --------- tph@rmii.com -------- http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph
       "Ah, Marie, If you can't trust the governments of the world,
                  who can you trust?"  -"Young Einstein"
Cookie's Revenge: ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/tph/cookie/cookies-revenge.sit.hqx

######

From: alex*@*rockvax.rockefeller.edu (Alexandre Pechtchanski)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Organization: Rockefeller University Hospital (GCRC), New York
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On 31 Aug 1998 16:55:39 GMT, tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) wrote:
[ Courtesy cc'ed through e-mail to the quoted author ]

>Alexandre Pechtchanski (alex*@*rockvax.rockefeller.edu) wrote:
>: On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:04:39 -0400, "J. Benz" <benz@danet.com> wrote:
>: >What's really scary is when you have parts left over - and the device works
>: >BETTER than it was designed to...
>
>: Which reminds me of an old TV set my grandparents used to have.  This box was
>: old the first time I saw it (mumble '50es), so the only repairman who would
>: touch it was this old guy...  Anyway, when TV hiccuped, this guy used to just
>: cut a part off (I _think_ he also used to short the leads if the cut part was a
>: resistor, but this may be a later revision ;-) , and TV started to work better
>: then before ;-)
>
>Do you happen to recall what brand this TV was?  This sounds a lot like
>the story of Earl "Madman" Muntz, who made TVs in the 1950s.  Reportedly,
>he'd visit his circuit designers, examine the schematics, and then start
>snipping things out left and right until the picture started to degrade.
>Then he'd tell them to add in that last snipped part.
>
>The full story's at <http://www.national.com/rap/Story/0,1008,17,00.htm>.
>
>Another one (with images unfortunately missing) is at 
><http://www.hickory.net/malco/8track/muntz.html>
>
>Muntz was also apparently the inventor of the 4-track (audio) tape, a
>precursor to 8-track systems.

The brand name was "Lootch" ("Ray") - soviet-made TV set of early 50es.

[ When replying, remove *'s from address ]
Alexandre Pechtchanski, Systems Manager, RUH, NY

######

From: Dennis Ritchie <dmr@bell-labs.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 02:01:03 +0100
Organization: Bell Labs, Lucent Technologies
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Tom Harrington wrote about:

> the story of Earl "Madman" Muntz, who made TVs in the 1950s.
>  ...
> The full story's at <http://www.national.com/rap/Story/0,1008,17,00.htm>.
> 
> Another one (with images unfortunately missing) is at
> <http://www.hickory.net/malco/8track/muntz.html>

Joe Condon (retired Bell Labs physicist and electronics
wizard, incidentally son of E.U. Condon of Los Alamos,
NBS and UFO report fame) claims that Madman Muntz
ultimately has the credit for color television, in
this way:

His on-the-cheap TVs debased the expected,
and thus competitively buildable IF bandwidth
in B&W TV sufficiently during the late 40s that the
big manufacturers were skimping too.  Thus there was
space in the 6 MHz channel separation to slip in the
NTSC color signal compatibly; if everyone had had
sets that used the full bandwidth originally intended, the
color subcarrier would have introduced unacceptable
artifacts in the B&W.

	Dennis

######

From: Tom Seddon <tom@sunholme.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 11:39:04 +0100
Organization: None whatsoever
Message-ID: <8X5lzAAIf781IwDl@sunholme.demon.co.uk>
References: <35e3ccc9.1452037@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
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Andrew D. Bucko <andrewbucko@worldnet.att.net> wrote this on Tue, 25 Aug
1998:
>I am not ignorant of technology.  Most of the PCs at my school can not
>read/write 1.8MB floppys due to a BIOS problem.  My PC at home couldn't without
>flashing its BIOS with an fixed version (which, if you are wondering, I have
>done myself and updated it twice after that as well).

IF you download the program FDFORMAT -- available in the diskutil/
directory in simtel/msdos, I think -- you will find it comes with a
small fix, called FDREAD.COM, which patches the int 13h interface and
allows even incompatible BIOSes to read the 1.8MB floppy disks.

After formatting a high-capacity disk with FDFORMAT, simply copy this
FDREAD.COM onto the disk as the first file. It will get stored in the
first 18 sectors of the first track after the FAT, which means that it
can be loaded even using a non-high-capacity-disk-reading BIOS. Once the
FDREAD program is loaded, you can then read the rest of the disk.

I have used this technique many times and have never had a problem with
it, other than dodgy disks. I think just the standard parameters for
FDFORMAT worked fine, but if you have a problem then the FAT size can
probably be tweaked via the command line to ensure that the first file
(FDREAD) will be stored in the first 18 sectors of a track.

--Tom

######

From: Tom E Arnold <tomea@execpc.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 22:31:46 -0500
Organization: Born to Raise Eyebrows
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stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us wrote:
> 
> In the clone market there have been innumerable innovative case designs which
> make it easier to access the motherboard.  Again, the diversity of hardware
> available in the clone market makes this possible.  It isn't even worth
> discussing in this vein whatever designs Apple has made for their various
> closed proprietary designs.  You've already made your deal with the devil
> when you buy completely proprietary hardware.
> 
> I'll add here that I'm not a Wintel fanatic.  There are now open software
> platforms that will run on all of the legacy hardware.  I can put Linux on all
> the platforms being discussed in this thread, so hardware choices become a
> matter more of interchangability, multiple sources, and price.  Proprietary
> closed hardware designs, on whatever flavor, become one of the remaining
> barriers, not a virtue.
> 
I am an aggressive dumpster diver, seeking particularly computers.
Although I got an early Motorola VME system recently, most of what I
find are '386 and '486 PCs. Many of the '386s, even noname clones, take
proprietory memory boards, but the mother boards all fit standard cases.
486 motherboards all look very similar, differing only in details,
except for the one Dell system I found. The motherboard would not fit
any other case, and worse yet, the power supply connector was
non-standard. I got drives and cards out of this thing, but it wasn't
worth fixing or upgrading as a system.

-- 
TEA/
 My current neighborhood: http://www.coldspringpark.org 
 My next neighborhood: http://www.geocities.com/athens/acropolis/9361

######

From: Tom E Arnold <tomea@execpc.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Industrial design in computers
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 22:39:21 -0500
Organization: Born to Raise Eyebrows
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stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us wrote:
>
<snipped discussion of merits of Netwinder bargain Linux boxes>
> 
> It also has a standard VGA connector on it, not a proprietary $Apple$ one, so
> a monitor is as little as $140 additional.  It has two built-in ethernet
> ports, one is 10/100 the second is 10.
> 
Two of the three PCs in my house are currently displaying thru
thrift-store VGA monitors; one cost $25, the other cost $18.95. I expect
that the one I have in the van will prove to work, given that someone
went to the trouble of setting it next to the dumpster with the power
and video cords coiled and taped. 

-- 
TEA/
 My current neighborhood: http://www.coldspringpark.org 
 My next neighborhood: http://www.geocities.com/athens/acropolis/9361