From: Goodies@Anytime.anyplace.com.au (Bandicoot) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard where would u put stuff & how many function keys! Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 20:24:03 GMT Organization: Non-Profit (I Didn't Plan It That Way) Lines: 1 Message-ID: <35bb55b8.16392910@news.supernews.com> Reply-To: Goodies@Anytime.anyplace.com.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 900879868 LGUMBR/EMB 5ACB37 usenet40.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail ###### From: "Sami Rosenblad" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard where would u put stuff & how many function keys! Date: 6 Aug 98 13:38:43 +0300 Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <35c86193.2421877@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: lug3mac.janton.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 X-News-Servers: news.kolumbus.fi X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.kolumbus.fi/alt.folklore.computers Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed1.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-stkh.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.kolumbus.fi!not-for-mail > I liked the cursor keys on my C64. You have one for up/down and > another next to it for left/right. To use the opposite direction you > need to press SHIFT. For example SHIFT+up/down (goes down) while just > up/down goes up (or visa versa - I forget). Sounds complex(?) but I > found it very fast just using three keys +----+----+ |up |left| SHIFTED |down|rght| unshifted +----+----+ ###### From: "Andrew Ducker" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard where would u put stuff & how many function keys! Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:47:53 +0100 Lines: 14 Message-ID: <6qc1nj$dle$1@heliodor.xara.net> References: <35c86193.2421877@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.126.87.60 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.nacamar.de!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.itg.net.uk!usenet Sami Rosenblad wrote in message ... >> I liked the cursor keys on my C64. You have one for up/down and >> another next to it for left/right. To use the opposite direction you >> need to press SHIFT. For example SHIFT+up/down (goes down) while just >> up/down goes up (or visa versa - I forget). Sounds complex(?) but I >> found it very fast just using three keys You'd have to use two hands though. Andy D ###### From: tait@primeline.net (Gary Tait) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard where would u put stuff & how many function keys! Date: Thu, 06 Aug 98 14:13:28 GMT Organization: Bruce Municipal Telephone System Lines: 27 Message-ID: <902412698.718922@Virginia> References: <35c86193.2421877@news.demon.co.uk> <6qc1nj$dle$1@heliodor.xara.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: virginia.bmts.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.0 Beta #0 Cache-Post-Path: Virginia!unknown@pm2-110.primeline.net Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!News.Ottawa.iSTAR.net!news.istar.net!nr1.ottawa.istar.net!tait In article <6qc1nj$dle$1@heliodor.xara.net>, "Andrew Ducker" wrote: # #Sami Rosenblad wrote in message ... #>> I liked the cursor keys on my C64. You have one for up/down and #>> another next to it for left/right. To use the opposite direction you #>> need to press SHIFT. For example SHIFT+up/down (goes down) while just #>> up/down goes up (or visa versa - I forget). Sounds complex(?) but I #>> found it very fast just using three keys # # #You'd have to use two hands though. # #Andy D # # No ,just 3 fingers on the right hand. The right shift is just to the left of the cursor keys.(Although I prefer the inverted T for a PC) Gary Tait,VE3VBF ; Homepage http://www.primeline.net/~tait ------------------------------------------------------------------ Please note that I use the Internet as a research / entertainment tool ,and I shall not recieve Email regarding the purchase, trade ,or reccomendation of merchandise , services, or intellectual property , unless I explicitly request such materials. If you Email me and wish a reply, Please use your REAL address with no spamblockers,etc. ###### From: news@the-molehill.demon.co.uk (Steve Ticehurst) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard where would u put stuff & how many function keys! Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 12:55:20 GMT Organization: The MoleHill - PD Publishing Message-ID: <35d3e18b.1397177625@harold> References: <35c86193.2421877@news.demon.co.uk> <6qc1nj$dle$1@heliodor.xara.net> <902412698.718922@Virginia> Reply-To: news@the-molehill.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: static-11.dialup.pavilion.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: grind.server.pavilion.net 903094316 1948 194.242.131.11 (14 Aug 1998 11:31:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@pavilion.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Aug 1998 11:31:56 GMT To: alt.folklore.computers X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Lines: 33 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!ayres.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!pavilion!netmonitor.co.uk!guest On Thu, 06 Aug 98 14:13:28 GMT, tait@primeline.net (Gary Tait) wrote: >In article <6qc1nj$dle$1@heliodor.xara.net>, "Andrew Ducker" wrote: ># >#Sami Rosenblad wrote in message ... >#>> I liked the cursor keys on my C64. You have one for up/down and >#>> another next to it for left/right. To use the opposite direction you >#>> need to press SHIFT. For example SHIFT+up/down (goes down) while just >#>> up/down goes up (or visa versa - I forget). Sounds complex(?) but I >#>> found it very fast just using three keys ># ># >#You'd have to use two hands though. ># >#Andy D ># ># >No ,just 3 fingers on the right hand. The right shift is just to the left of >the cursor keys.(Although I prefer the inverted T for a PC) > I must admit, thinking about it, I do remember a number of times when I was using the cursor keys like this the cursor would suddently go the opposite direction to what I expected - normally when my finger slipped off the shift key! ---- STeve Ticehurst, Brighton, UK /||\ /||\ '97 news@the-molehill.demon.co.uk //||\\r .//||\\ole ========================================================= a more direct route : sticehurst[at]bcs[dot.]org[dot.]uk ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard where would u put stuff & how many function keys! Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 22:05:10 +0100 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <35B25F86.668D332C@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <35bb55b8.16392910@news.supernews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 900918548 nnrp-03:21762 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 11 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Bandicoot wrote: [Absolutely nothing at all] Well, I don't want to stifle creativity, but I think a few working letters would help to get the message across. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard where would u put stuff & how many function keys! Date: 20 Jul 1998 00:07:03 GMT Organization: TRIUMF, Canada's National Meson Facility Lines: 10 Message-ID: <6ou1n7$eo$1@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> References: <35bb55b8.16392910@news.supernews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: alph02.triumf.ca Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!164.67.42.145!awabi.library.ucla.edu!137.82.194.1!unixg.ubc.ca!alph02.triumf.ca!shoppa In article <35bb55b8.16392910@news.supernews.com>, Bandicoot wrote: > If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard where would > you put stuff & how many function keys! I'd make it look exactly like the VT100 keyboard, with the "Gold" (PF1) key exactly where God intended. Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) ###### From: Dan Strychalski Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.comp.periphs.keyboard Subject: Re: If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard where would u put stuff & how many function keys! Date: 20 Jul 1998 03:18:49 GMT Organization: I need to put my ORGANIZATION here. Lines: 27 Message-ID: <6oucup$7ie$1@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.72.104.4 Originator: dski@ Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.clark.net!207.114.4.11!nntp.abs.net!news.cetlink.net!serv.hinet.net!spring.edu.tw!feeder.seed.net.tw!news.seed.net.tw!!dski In article <35bb55b8.16392910@news.supernews.com>, Bandicoot (Goodies@Anytime.anyplace.com.au) wrote: > If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard [...] But most people do. Or would, if their software would let them. Software, or firmware that can be overridden by software, interprets all keystrokes on most systems nowadays. > where would you put stuff [...] Ctrl at the left end of the home row. The rest, I don't care much about. Full ASCII, of course. No character keys at the right edge or in the bottom row, thank you. Any or all of Alt, Meta, Func, Command, Option, Compose, Macro, whatever, down at the bottom. Character layout can be bit-paired (a.k.a. ASCII-paired), IBM Selectric/PC, Dvorak, French, German -- I'll adapt. Ctrl in the home row, and software that puts it to good use. > & how many function keys! I believe you are talking about buttons that some manufacturers add outside the periphery of the keyboard. How anyone can mention the keyboard and such extraneous buttons in the same breath is beyond me. Dan "Eyes Front" Strychalski dski at cameonet, cameo, com, tw (no _x_) added in hopes of livening it up ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.comp.periphs.keyboard Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 23:15:41 +0200 Message-ID: From: peterk@combo.ganesha.com (Dr. Peter Kittel) Subject: Re: If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard where would u put stuff & how many function keys! Reply-To: peterk @ combo.ganesha.com References: <6oucup$7ie$1@news.seed.net.tw> X-Newsreader: rn7.bas Lines: 21 Organization: Private Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!wuff.mayn.de!news.idt.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!194.72.7.126!btnet-peer!btnet!newsfeed.ecrc.net!blackbush.xlink.net!ganesha.ganesha.com!shorter!combo.ganesha.com!peterk In article <6oucup$7ie$1@news.seed.net.tw> Dan Strychalski writes: >In article <35bb55b8.16392910@news.supernews.com>, Bandicoot >(Goodies@Anytime.anyplace.com.au) wrote: > >> If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard [...] > >> & how many function keys! > >I believe you are talking about buttons that some manufacturers add >outside the periphery of the keyboard. I'm still longing back to the old times (XT) with the function keys in two columns at the left of the keyboard. Even I, who never learnt touch typing, had never a problem to use them with my left small finger (and I'm heavily right-hand-biased), without moving the hand so much as today with those keys far away on top. Shame on those designers. -- Best Regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail: Private Site in Frankfurt, Germany \X/ peterk @ combo.ganesha.com ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard where would u put stuff & how many function keys! Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:54:07 +0100 Message-ID: References: <35bb55b8.16392910@news.supernews.com> <6ou1n7$eo$1@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-032.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: roch.zetnet.co.uk 901180894 8610 194.247.41.39 (23 Jul 1998 08:01:34 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jul 1998 08:01:34 GMT User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980226 (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.32 (i586)) Lines: 15 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news.fh-hannover.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail Tim Shoppa wrote: > In article <35bb55b8.16392910@news.supernews.com>, > Bandicoot wrote: >> If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard where would >> you put stuff & how many function keys! > I'd make it look exactly like the VT100 keyboard, with the "Gold" (PF1) > key exactly where God intended. But it'd feel like an RML 380Z. pete -- Pete Fenelon, 3 Beckside Gardens, York, YO10 3TX, UK (pete.fenelon@zetnet.co.uk) ``there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas'' ###### From: jcmorris@mwunix.mitre.org (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard where would u put stuff & how many function keys! Date: 23 Jul 1998 13:39:30 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 23 Message-ID: <6p7eei$8cj@top.mitre.org> References: <35bb55b8.16392910@news.supernews.com> <6ou1n7$eo$1@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: mwunix.mitre.org Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.wli.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!world!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!mwunix!jcmorris shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) writes: >Bandicoot wrote: >> If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard where would >> you put stuff & how many function keys! >I'd make it look exactly like the VT100 keyboard, with the "Gold" (PF1) >key exactly where God intended. Including the placement of the cursor keys? (They were in a horizontal row above the top row of the normal keyboard; utterly impossible to use without requiring an unnatural hand position. The inverted-T pattern that is now the standard layout was a welcome improvement.) And if you put the function keys on the right where would you put the numeric keypad? I *did* like having the function keys on the right, although my preference came from the earlier IBM 3270 design, but a keyboard needs to have a numeric pad designed to facilitate touch- typing entry. The original PC keyboard with its eight F-keys on the left was usable; why not leave the numeric keyboard on the right and add a 12-key pad on the left? Joe Morris ###### From: shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard where would u put stuff & how many function keys! Date: 23 Jul 1998 16:23:32 GMT Organization: TRIUMF, Canada's National Meson Facility Lines: 13 Message-ID: <6p7o24$jdd$1@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> References: <35bb55b8.16392910@news.supernews.com> <6ou1n7$eo$1@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> <6p7eei$8cj@top.mitre.org> <35B75E5E.6FA4@iridia.ulb.antispam_remove.ac.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: alph02.triumf.ca Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!europa.clark.net!164.67.42.145!awabi.library.ucla.edu!137.82.194.1!unixg.ubc.ca!alph02.triumf.ca!shoppa In article <35B75E5E.6FA4@iridia.ulb.antispam_remove.ac.be>, Nicholas Bradshaw wrote: >Joe Morris wrote: >> >> And if you put the function keys on the right where would you put the >> numeric keypad? > >In the bin, perhaps, where it belongs. Nah, you need the numeric keypad to run EDT in keypad mode. And besides, without the numeric keypad, where would you put the EDT keypad condom? Tim. ###### From: Nicholas Bradshaw Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard where would u put stuff & how many function keys! Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 18:01:34 +0200 Organization: IRIDIA Lines: 10 Message-ID: <35B75E5E.6FA4@iridia.ulb.antispam_remove.ac.be> References: <35bb55b8.16392910@news.supernews.com> <6ou1n7$eo$1@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> <6p7eei$8cj@top.mitre.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: iridia5.ulb.ac.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03C (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4m) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news.vub.ac.be!not-for-mail Joe Morris wrote: > > And if you put the function keys on the right where would you put the > numeric keypad? In the bin, perhaps, where it belongs. -- Nick Bradshaw -- IRIDIA, ULB ###### From: jacoby@freighter.ecn.purdue.edu (David Jacoby) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard where would u put stuff & how many function keys! Date: 23 Jul 1998 18:52:21 GMT Organization: Purdue University, W. Lafayette, IN Lines: 10 Message-ID: <6p80p5$2op@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> References: <35bb55b8.16392910@news.supernews.com> <6ou1n7$eo$1@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> <6p7eei$8cj@top.mitre.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: freighter.ecn.purdue.edu Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!198.138.0.5!newshub.northeast.verio.net!news.pn.com!nntp.pn.com!mozo.cc.purdue.edu!freighter.ecn.purdue.edu!jacoby I don't know about key placement, but the home-position bumps should be set for the middle finger, like Apple does it. I normally use and like Sun Type 4s, but that's the one point where I agree 100% w/ Apple. -- David Jacoby mailto:jacoby@ecn.purdue.edu Web Technician and Librarian http://harbor.ecn.purdue.edu/~jacoby/ Engineering Computer Network Writing software is more fun than work! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ###### From: jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard where would u put stuff & how many function keys! Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:10:08 GMT Organization: Videotron Communications Ltd. Lines: 63 Message-ID: <35b7b0da.14575181@news.prosurfr.com> References: <35bb55b8.16392910@news.supernews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c9169-004.prosurfr.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!btnet-peer!btnet!newsfeed.internetmci.com!128.223.220.30!logbridge.uoregon.edu!scanner.worldgate.com!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.videotron.ab.ca!not-for-mail Goodies@Anytime.anyplace.com.au (Bandicoot) wrote, in part: > If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard where would > you put stuff & how many function keys! Well, the 101-key keyboard from IBM was finally well designed. The Backspace and Enter keys, and both Shift keys, were in their normal touch-typing positions. But there *are* changes I'd like to see. I'd relabel the "Alt" keys "Code", since one of their uses is to allow the code of a special character to be entered on the numeric keypad, and when used with a letter, they're used to allow the code for a special function to be typed. Then, I'd add a key corresponding to the AltGr key on some foreign-language keyboards, and I'd call _that_ key Alt. In the default layout, for U.S. English, this key would be used to allow all sorts of special characters, like the copyright symbol, the British pound sign, paragraph and section symbols, less than or equal to, and so on, to be typed, without resorting to numeric codes. Adding an equals sign - and a comma - to the numeric keypad would make sense. Dropping the right-hand control key would allow the cursor keys to be tucked in to the main keyboard. Then the other keys - like Insert, Print Screen, and so on, could be put in a cluster of ten on the left of the keyboard, where the function keys were on the original PC. Add another 12 function keys, and the keyboard could be used more easily with 3270-emulation software. Also, the keyboard can be color-coded. The printable-character keys should go back to being grey with centered white letters. The Tab, Enter, Esc and Backspace keys, which correspond to ASCII control characters, could be green with white lettering. The Break key, of course, would be red. And the cursor keys would be yellow. Shift, Alt, and Ctrl would all be white, but the Code key would be black. The function keys would be brown with white lettering. The keys in the numeric keypad that switch from being numbers to cursor functions can be blue (still white lettering). Caps Lock and Num Lock could be light gray with black lettering. The other keys would be black with white lettering, such as Home, End, Page Up, Insert, Print Screen. John Savard http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html ###### From: bitbucket@wolfenet.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard where would u put stuff & how many function keys! Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 00:26:44 GMT Organization: Wolfe Internet Access, L.L.C Lines: 51 Message-ID: <35b9d0e1.12418375@news1.wolfenet.com> References: <35bb55b8.16392910@news.supernews.com> <35B25F86.668D332C@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: sea-e42.wolfenet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!207.178.60.5!nntp1.wolfe.net!news.wolfe.net!not-for-mail Actually, I've been thinkin about new keyboards layouts a lot lately. I think the key is in separating the keyboard in several functional pieces. Here is what I would have tried to do: a) Take the function (F1... F12) keys and make them into a separate unit that clips onto the bottom of monitor. We have to reach for them anyway, no reason we can't reach a few more inches, and they aren't THAT heavily used anyway (unless Norton Commander is still you premier file management tool or if you like to go virtual console crazy in Linux). b) Get rid of Print Screen, Scroll Lock and Pause altogether. It was a dumb idea in the first place - to force software functions into hardware. c) Leave the numerical keypad as it is, BUT make it a separate unit, that can be attached to the keyboard (at the same place where it is now) in fractions of second. The connectors would be built into attachment, so there would be no extra wire to worry about. If you use it, it's there, and if you don't it is a big step towards making keyboard more mobile. d) Move escape to a less prominent position - perhaps to the left side of keyboard, where it can be reached easily but wuld be kept ut of sight otherwise e) The cursor pad should stay where it is - but they should have a separate "base" that could be tilted up and down. Those of us who still play quake with keyboard (yes, I know, shame on all 3 of us :) would appreciate it, and I think that it could be useful for almost everyone who uses the cursor keys. f) The indicator light can go in space between Insert... Delete key block and the cursor pad - it's not like we look at them very often. g) Finally, the remaining keys could be made smaller, and the keyboard itself smaller and thinner. This just cries for elimination of keyboard wire as standard in favor of IR transmitters. This may cal for an external IR receiver (connected to computer by a goddamn wire :) for the many of us who are used to using the computer as a rather comfortable foot rest. Well, there you have it, ladies and gentelmen - my very own keyboard of future. Licensingof these ideas is available, inquire within :) Regards, Alex To email me, replace bitbucket with nwres203. Thank you spammers... ###### From: bayko@borealis.cs.uregina.ca (John Bayko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard where would u put stuff & how many function keys! Date: 24 Jul 1998 23:16:39 GMT Organization: University of Regina, Dept. of Computer Science Lines: 41 Message-ID: <6pb4kn$j12$1@sue.cc.uregina.ca> References: <35bb55b8.16392910@news.supernews.com> <35B25F86.668D332C@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35b9d0e1.12418375@news1.wolfenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: borealis.cs.uregina.ca Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!island.idirect.com!news1.bellglobal.com!dragon.sk.sympatico.ca!mongol.sasknet.sk.ca!news.uregina.ca!not-for-mail In article <35b9d0e1.12418375@news1.wolfenet.com>, wrote: [...] >b) Get rid of Print Screen, Scroll Lock and Pause altogether. It was a >dumb idea in the first place - to force software functions into >hardware. I think Scroll Lock is a good idea, it's just bad the software doesn't support it. For example, when I'm looking at a document in Netscape, the up arrow moved the document up, as you'd expect, but in a word processor, it moves the cursor up (and document down if it's at the top). If scroll lock is on, I could scroll through a word processor document the same way, and not spend those extra dozen neurons which have to keep track of which application goes with which arrow keys. What I'd like to see is Cut and Copy keys (you could use Insert for Paste, it's not used for anything else these days anyway). Sure, I can use ^X ^C and ^V, but only sometimes - vim has a very differnt idea of what ^V means, and terminal emulators are more likely to pass a ^C through to the other system. >d) Move escape to a less prominent position - perhaps to the left side >of keyboard, where it can be reached easily but wuld be kept ut of >sight otherwise I don't know why you don't like the sight of the escape key. As I hinted, I'm a big vi user, and having ESC hidden somewhere would be a real headache. Ever use some of the dreadful HP workstation keyboards, with ESC down near the Shift key? Just about drove me batty! Other keyboard complaints - what's with those damn keys with the Windows logo on them, stuffed between CRTL and ALT? You keep hitting them and suddenly some monstrous menu pops up on the screen? The first chance I got, I switched the brand new PC keyboard that came with the system here for an old one - the kind that *CLICKS* when you type. No silly Microsoft keys... -- John Bayko (Tau). bayko@cs.uregina.ca http://www.cs.uregina.ca/~bayko ###### From: jnickelsen@acm.org (Juergen Nickelsen) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard where would u put stuff & how many function keys! Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 13:34:13 +0200 Organization: [Posted via] Interactive Networx Message-ID: <1dcqbnb.11cg2ct15xteuqN@n246-123.berlin.snafu.de> References: <35bb55b8.16392910@news.supernews.com> <6ou1n7$eo$1@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> <6p7eei$8cj@top.mitre.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: n246-123.berlin.snafu.de X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.3 Lines: 23 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news-hh.maz.net!unlisys!news.snafu.de!jnickelsen Joe Morris wrote: [vt100] > Including the placement of the cursor keys? (They were in a horizontal > row above the top row of the normal keyboard; utterly impossible to > use without requiring an unnatural hand position. I like the vi "cursor keys" myself (h [left] j [down] k [up] l [right]), which I learned (what a shame!) not through vi, but through "hack", which gave me a very welcome familiar feeling when I first touched vi. Although I now am more an Emacs person, I had a hard time to get used to C-f, C-b, C-n, C-p, despite their nmemonic properties (backward, forward, next line, previous line). When I switch between vi and Emacs often, I still need an more or less explicit mental context switch, and it does not always work immediately. On my Mac I have a quite old keyboard (first ADB keyboard, very good), which also has the cursor keys in a row (the bottom one, right of the space bar). Since I changed them to vi style, I am quite happy with that. -- Juergen Nickelsen ###### From: gbuchana@pc-24826.on.rogers.wave.ca (Gardner Buchanan) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard where would u put stuff & how many function keys! Date: 26 Jul 1998 20:47:59 GMT Organization: Rogers WAVE Lines: 23 Sender: gardner@pc-24826.on.rogers.wave.ca Message-ID: <6pg4lv$cnj$1@news.on> References: <35bb55b8.16392910@news.supernews.com> <35B25F86.668D332C@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35b9d0e1.12418375@news1.wolfenet.com> <6pb4kn$j12$1@sue.cc.uregina.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: pc-24826.on.rogers.wave.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Newsreader: knews 0.9.7 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!News.Toronto.iSTAR.net!news.istar.net!news.on.rogers.wave.ca!not-for-mail In article <6pb4kn$j12$1@sue.cc.uregina.ca>, bayko@borealis.cs.uregina.ca (John Bayko) writes: > Other keyboard complaints - what's with those damn keys with the > Windows logo on them, stuffed between CRTL and ALT? You keep hitting > them and suddenly some monstrous menu pops up on the screen? The first > chance I got, I switched the brand new PC keyboard that came with the > system here for an old one - the kind that *CLICKS* when you type. No > silly Microsoft keys... I can't abide caps-lock. I'm always pressing it by mistake when aiming for and wind up with vi going insane and no way to undo 27 Js! The ideal keyboard would have an old-fashioned click-on, click-off type caps lock, with a much stronger spring under that key. Usually my first line of business with a new keyboard is to disable caps lock somehow. Super-Glue or a cut trace on the PCB usually works. ============================================================ Gardner Buchanan Ottawa, ON FreeBSD: Where you want to go. Today. ###### From: news@the-molehill.demon.co.uk (Steve Ticehurst) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard where would u put stuff & how many function keys! Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 15:48:32 GMT Organization: The MoleHill - PD Publishing Message-ID: <35c86193.2421877@news.demon.co.uk> References: <35bb55b8.16392910@news.supernews.com> <6ou1n7$eo$1@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> <6p7eei$8cj@top.mitre.org> <1dcqbnb.11cg2ct15xteuqN@n246-123.berlin.snafu.de> Reply-To: news@the-molehill.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: the-molehill.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: the-molehill.demon.co.uk:158.152.126.26 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 902332111 nnrp-05:14901 NO-IDENT the-molehill.demon.co.uk:158.152.126.26 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.nacamar.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!the-molehill.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail On Sun, 26 Jul 1998 13:34:13 +0200, jnickelsen@acm.org (Juergen Nickelsen) wrote: >On my Mac I have a quite old keyboard (first ADB keyboard, very good), >which also has the cursor keys in a row (the bottom one, right of the >space bar). Since I changed them to vi style, I am quite happy with >that. I liked the cursor keys on my C64. You have one for up/down and another next to it for left/right. To use the opposite direction you need to press SHIFT. For example SHIFT+up/down (goes down) while just up/down goes up (or visa versa - I forget). Sounds complex(?) but I found it very fast just using three keys ---- STeve Ticehurst, Brighton, UK /||\ /||\ '97 news@the-molehill.demon.co.uk //||\\r .//||\\ole ========================================================= a more direct route : sticehurst[at@]bcs[dot.]org[dot.]uk ###### From: jnickelsen@acm.org (Juergen Nickelsen) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard where would u put stuff & how many function keys! Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 01:19:07 +0200 Organization: [Posted via] Interactive Networx Message-ID: <1dd7qd4.15upfhu1qjn8zlN@n37-5.berlin.snafu.de> References: <35bb55b8.16392910@news.supernews.com> <35B25F86.668D332C@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35b9d0e1.12418375@news1.wolfenet.com> <6pb4kn$j12$1@sue.cc.uregina.ca> <6pg4lv$cnj$1@news.on> NNTP-Posting-Host: n37-5.berlin.snafu.de X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.3 Lines: 16 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.nacamar.de!wuff.mayn.de!unlisys!news.snafu.de!jnickelsen Gardner Buchanan wrote: > Usually my first line of business with a new keyboard is to disable > caps lock somehow. Super-Glue or a cut trace on the PCB usually > works. I prefer simply remapping it to Control. One of Windows NT's advantages: There is a HAL-level driver that makes Caps Lock a Control key. (In theory, no application should be able to get around that. Netscape Navigator still does not recognize this key as Control in some contexts. Probably it looks at the scan code or whatever -- stupid, stupid, stupid!) -- Juergen Nickelsen ###### From: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard where would u put stuff & how many function keys! Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 10:18:39 -0400 Organization: Kettering University (formerly GMI E&MI) - Flint MI Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <35bb55b8.16392910@news.supernews.com> <35B25F86.668D332C@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35b9d0e1.12418375@news1.wolfenet.com> <6pb4kn$j12$1@sue.cc.uregina.ca> <6pg4lv$cnj$1@news.on> <1dd7qd4.15upfhu1qjn8zlN@n37-5.berlin.snafu.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: nova.kettering.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: <1dd7qd4.15upfhu1qjn8zlN@n37-5.berlin.snafu.de> Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!24.128.1.125!chnws03.mediaone.net!24.131.1.12!denws01.mw.mediaone.net!news.gmi.edu!nova.kettering.edu!lee1089 On Sat, 8 Aug 1998, Juergen Nickelsen wrote: > Gardner Buchanan wrote: > > > Usually my first line of business with a new keyboard is to disable > > caps lock somehow. Super-Glue or a cut trace on the PCB usually > > works. > > I prefer simply remapping it to Control. One of Windows NT's advantages: > There is a HAL-level driver that makes Caps Lock a Control key. NT's advantages over what? MS's other brain dead OSes? Key remapping has been standard in such things as Mac OS and Unix for years (possibly also OS/2, Amiga OS, BeOS etc.) > (In theory, no application should be able to get around that. Netscape > Navigator still does not recognize this key as Control in some contexts. > Probably it looks at the scan code or whatever -- stupid, stupid, > stupid!) In theory, a programmer can do whatever he/she wants. Is it really MS's fault if their developers don't adhere to the rules as much as other platforms' developers do? (Well, I guess they could deny them the "Made for Windows" sticker on the box.) ###### From: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard where would u put stuff & how many function keys! Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 20:03:39 -0400 Organization: Kettering University (formerly GMI E&MI) - Flint MI Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <35bb55b8.16392910@news.supernews.com> <35B25F86.668D332C@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35b9d0e1.12418375@news1.wolfenet.com> <6pb4kn$j12$1@sue.cc.uregina.ca> <6pg4lv$cnj$1@news.on> <1dd7qd4.15upfhu1qjn8zlN@n37-5.berlin.snafu.de> <1ddv4f4.19xki3m10uahzkN@n34-77.berlin.snafu.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: nova.kettering.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: <1ddv4f4.19xki3m10uahzkN@n34-77.berlin.snafu.de> Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!24.130.1.14!lsnws01.we.mediaone.net!24.131.1.12!denws01.mw.mediaone.net!news.gmi.edu!nova.kettering.edu!lee1089 On Wed, 19 Aug 1998, Juergen Nickelsen wrote: > wrote: > > > > One of Windows NT's advantages: There is a HAL-level driver that makes > > > Caps Lock a Control key. > > > > NT's advantages over what? MS's other brain dead OSes? Key remapping has > > been standard in such things as Mac OS and Unix for years (possibly also > > OS/2, Amiga OS, BeOS etc.) > > Perhaps the term "advantage" was not appropriate here. And this driver > (by someone else) just happens to be around without Microsoft deserving > any credits, but sometimes I am just thankful for the little things. > > I have had the same caps vs. control problem with several other > machines. On the Macintosh, yes, I know, you can remap the keys with the > KCHR resources of the system file, sure. It just doesn't work really > well -- there are enough applications that don't care a bit. That's funny, I regulary use the DI Dvorak layout and have never run into a single *non-gaming* app that didn't use the current layout instead of using the scan codes (well, actually, the virtual key codes as the scan codes vary between keyboards). I don't see why a program would even bother with scan codes on a Mac. It's so much easier to just use the event manager's keydown events which hand deliver the ascii values. ###### From: jnickelsen@acm.org (Juergen Nickelsen) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard where would u put stuff & how many function keys! Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 23:26:10 +0200 Organization: [Posted via] Interactive Networx Lines: 60 Message-ID: <1ddv4f4.19xki3m10uahzkN@n34-77.berlin.snafu.de> References: <35bb55b8.16392910@news.supernews.com> <35B25F86.668D332C@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35b9d0e1.12418375@news1.wolfenet.com> <6pb4kn$j12$1@sue.cc.uregina.ca> <6pg4lv$cnj$1@news.on> <1dd7qd4.15upfhu1qjn8zlN@n37-5.berlin.snafu.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: n34-77.berlin.snafu.de X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.3.3 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!cs.tu-berlin.de!unlisys!news.snafu.de!jnickelsen wrote: > > One of Windows NT's advantages: There is a HAL-level driver that makes > > Caps Lock a Control key. > > NT's advantages over what? MS's other brain dead OSes? Key remapping has > been standard in such things as Mac OS and Unix for years (possibly also > OS/2, Amiga OS, BeOS etc.) Perhaps the term "advantage" was not appropriate here. And this driver (by someone else) just happens to be around without Microsoft deserving any credits, but sometimes I am just thankful for the little things. I have had the same caps vs. control problem with several other machines. On the Macintosh, yes, I know, you can remap the keys with the KCHR resources of the system file, sure. It just doesn't work really well -- there are enough applications that don't care a bit. On an HP workstation (735/125 -- really hot for the time!) you can easily remap the keys with X. Jamie Zawinski's XKeycaps program is great for those of us who never really understood xmodmap. But that doesn't help if you're working on the console without X, and I found that necessary sometimes. With FreeBSD you can also remap the key of the console driver, which is great. But if something drops you into single user mode, you are again out of luck, because your custom key table hasn't been loaded yet. By default, it is even inaccessible until you have managed to load /usr. Allright, I have the source, so I could fix even that. Not to blame are the VTx20 terminals I have used for several years, because they have the control key in the right place. Care to explain how to remap that, if they had not? > > Netscape Navigator still does not recognize this key as Control in some > > contexts. Probably it looks at the scan code or whatever -- stupid, > > stupid, stupid!) > > In theory, a programmer can do whatever he/she wants. Is it really MS's > fault if their developers don't adhere to the rules as much as other > platforms' developers do? Not really, and my insult went into Netscape's direction. The funny thing is that Communicator (which I meant above, "Navigator" was wrong) recognizes the "new" control key in some contexts, but not in others. Perhaps it is more particular about the key being used when it is pressed together with Shift. (This is not a problem for other applications.) The same applies of course to the Macintosh example above: Apple is not to blame for the programs that don't care about the guidelines. But I am not interested who's to blame, I am interested in getting programs to work in a way that I can use them. And in this respect, remapping the Caps Lock key to Control is quite different in quality between the OSs where I used it -- and it is best with Windows NT. Still not a reason to like NT more than the others, though. -- Juergen Nickelsen ###### From: newsbait@lucifer.geecs.org (James Douglas) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard where would u put stuff & how many function keys! Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 18:29:48 -0400 Organization: Case Western Reserve University Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <35bb55b8.16392910@news.supernews.com> <35B25F86.668D332C@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35b9d0e1.12418375@news1.wolfenet.com> <6pb4kn$j12$1@sue.cc.uregina.ca> <6pg4lv$cnj$1@news.on> <1dd7qd4.15upfhu1qjn8zlN@n37-5.berlin.snafu.de> <1ddv4f4.19xki3m10uahzkN@n34-77.berlin.snafu.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: glaser.student.cwru.edu X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news2.ais.net!jamie!ais.net!usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu!newsbait In article , wrote: > That's funny, I regulary use the DI Dvorak layout and have never run into > a single *non-gaming* app that didn't use the current layout instead of > using the scan codes (well, actually, the virtual key codes as the scan > codes vary between keyboards). I don't see why a program would even bother > with scan codes on a Mac. It's so much easier to just use the event > manager's keydown events which hand deliver the ascii values. True here also (nice to hear about other dvorak users :-). The only thing that gets me right now is the problems using ctrl-shift-6...the ctrl-shift combinations don't work for me (I was using another layout, where shift-[ was ], and that made it impossible for me to close telnet sessions via that manner). I haven't investigated it much, but apparently it is somewhat non-trivial to modify those settings. The real thing that gets me is that apparently there are several methods for retrieving keyboard input in java, and I have been to a site where I could login fine with the dvorak layout, but it wouldn't work on the next screen, for inputting messages (this was a java based web site). -- newsbait@lucifer.geecs.org This address is read, but is here to allow me to catalog my spam mail, so it may have a slow response time. ###### From: brian@karoshi.ucsd.edu (Brian Kantor) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard where would u put stuff & how many function keys! Date: 21 Aug 1998 04:36:24 -0700 Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd. Lines: 25 Message-ID: <6rjm3o$m7@karoshi.ucsd.edu> References: <35bb55b8.16392910@news.supernews.com> <1ddv4f4.19xki3m10uahzkN@n34-77.berlin.snafu.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: karoshi.ucsd.edu Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!awabi.library.ucla.edu!132.239.1.220!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news1.ucsd.edu!karoshi.ucsd.edu!not-for-mail >> > NT's advantages over what? MS's other brain dead OSes? Key remapping has >> > been standard in such things as Mac OS and Unix for years (possibly also >> > OS/2, Amiga OS, BeOS etc.) Use the hardware solution: just slice and dice the printed circuit board so that all the appropriate keys are in parallel with the marked Control key. Or perhaps the keyboard encoder chip has a select pin - might be worth trying a few of the unused pins. I like my Northgate 101 keyboards - there's a dip switch in the upper left corner that swaps the control and caps lock keys, and they come with alternate keytops. Apparently they're no longer available, dammit. There was someone at the last Usenix conference vendor show that was selling a keyboard with similar features, but it had a very short warranty and was quite expensive, so I lost interest quickly. Perhaps someone else makes one. Or would it be hard to put a little PIC-based translation box in between the keyboard and the computer to do the remapping before the OS gets a look at it? You could even remap one of the early Sun or IBM Selectric keyboards to PC up/down codes if you happen to like them. - Brian ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard where would u put stuff & how many function keys! Date: 21 Aug 1998 23:10:22 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <35bb55b8.16392910@news.supernews.com> <1ddv4f4.19xki3m10uahzkN@n34-77.berlin.snafu.de> <6rjm3o$m7@karoshi.ucsd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 brian@karoshi.ucsd.edu (Brian Kantor) writes: > Or would it be hard to put a little PIC-based translation box in between > the keyboard and the computer to do the remapping before the OS gets a > look at it? You could even remap one of the early Sun or IBM Selectric > keyboards to PC up/down codes if you happen to like them. If an AS/400 (5250 terminal) keyboard will do: Linux has in the "kbd" Package an file: /usr/doc/kbd/as400.kbd.gz It tells you how to connect one of them. Just rewiring the plug and a bit of software. -- home: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ work: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ *** It's true ! I read it on Usenet and the Web ! *** ###### From: jnickelsen@acm.org (Juergen Nickelsen) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard where would u put stuff & how many function keys! Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 01:22:08 +0200 Organization: [Posted via] Interactive Networx Lines: 36 Message-ID: <1dee5lg.1nuekal1mw6jdkN@n34-89.berlin.snafu.de> References: <35bb55b8.16392910@news.supernews.com> <35B25F86.668D332C@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35b9d0e1.12418375@news1.wolfenet.com> <6pb4kn$j12$1@sue.cc.uregina.ca> <6pg4lv$cnj$1@news.on> <1dd7qd4.15upfhu1qjn8zlN@n37-5.berlin.snafu.de> <1ddv4f4.19xki3m10uahzkN@n34-77.berlin.snafu.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: n34-89.berlin.snafu.de X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.3.3 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!oleane!newsfeed.nacamar.de!wuff.mayn.de!unlisys!news.snafu.de!jnickelsen wrote: > > On the Macintosh, yes, I know, you can remap the keys with the KCHR > > resources of the system file, sure. It just doesn't work really well -- > > there are enough applications that don't care a bit. > > That's funny, I regulary use the DI Dvorak layout and have never run into > a single *non-gaming* app that didn't use the current layout instead of > using the scan codes (well, actually, the virtual key codes as the scan > codes vary between keyboards). That I tried to remap the control key on the Macintosh keyboard is too long ago to remember what specifically went wrong -- I only remember that it didn't work well, and that I gave it up. Perhaps remapping the Control key (which the Dvorak keyboard doesn't) is "harder" because it changes the meanings of other keys. Now I have a much better (probably because it's older) keyboard with the control key in the right place. > I don't see why a program would even bother with scan codes on a Mac. Neither do I, but some programs do bother. On my current Macintosh keyboard the cursor keys are in a single row right of the space bar, so consequently I have switched the (physical) keys and remapped them to work like the hjkl keys in vi. This works indeed with most applications, but not with GNU Emacs (which doesn't bother me much, because I can use Emacs's C-b C-n C-p C-f) and not with NCSA Telnet. Sigh. BTW, I also tried the Dvorak layout, and I think it is great. Unfortunately all the years of training qwerty and qwertz (I am german) are hard to overcome, and I finally gave it up. But if anyone begins to learn touch typing, I'd recommend it strongly. -- Juergen Nickelsen ###### From: dpeschel@u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: If you had the opportunity to redesign the keyboard where would u put stuff & how many function keys! (LONG) Date: 25 Jul 1998 06:51:10 GMT Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Lines: 61 Message-ID: <6pbv8u$osk$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> References: <35bb55b8.16392910@news.supernews.com> <35B25F86.668D332C@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35b9d0e1.12418375@news1.wolfenet.com> <6pb4kn$j12$1@sue.cc.uregina.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: saul9.u.washington.edu X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 901349470 25492 (None) 140.142.64.4 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-User: dpeschel Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!135.173.83.24!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!140.142.64.3!news.u.washington.edu!dpeschel In article <6pb4kn$j12$1@sue.cc.uregina.ca>, John Bayko wrote: > Other keyboard complaints - what's with those damn keys with the >Windows logo on them, stuffed between CRTL and ALT? You keep hitting >them and suddenly some monstrous menu pops up on the screen? I hate that. I also hate having to hit Alt-Tab to get back to my full-screen vim session, because Windows is sloppy about preserving states of sessions. (That is, it doesn't fix the messes it makes to users' screens.) I especially cringe at the way menus randomly disappear and react to both the keyboard and mouse at the same time. The Macintosh is primitive -- pulling down a menu suspends most system functions -- but that is NOT necessarily a bad thing. (Danger, theory approaching at high speed!) Oh, my keyboard design? Well... Start by designing the main typing keys. Don't skimp on them! Possibly split the space bar into two or three keys; maybe put another control key where Return is now. Then put in an editing block. Four arrow keys plus six more is a waste; nine arrow keys plus six more (as found on some PC clones) is really a waste. This layout might work: [1] up [2] lft down rgt [ 3 ] I haven't decided on the functions of [1] and [2] yet. [3], which is very wide, would make a good "shift" or "intensify" key. As for the keypad: Current keypads seem OK to me, but a "tab" key would be nice to have. Abolish NumLock. (*IF* the OS really supported it, and kept a separate flag for each program, then there would be a reason for having the "soft" toggle keys. Since I haven't seen an OS that does that, a real toggle switch and light would be better, or nothing at all. There's great merit to avoiding modes, with one code per key and one key per code. Switches would also be good for Caps Lock and Scroll Lock.) I think I'd include a few special-purpose keys, but use them for important situations where they're needed. ("HELP" and "CANCEL" come to mind. There is NO intuition in holding down Shift during bootup -- pushing a key labeled "STOP" or "PAUSE" makes much more sense.) The design of the whole keyboard (and the software that calls it) may be even more important than the design of the parts. Can the keyboard send all 128 ASCII codes (or 256 8-byte codes, or whatever you need)? Is there a mostly sane mapping from its keys to other common layouts (VT100, VT220, IBM) for ease of emulation? Is there a family of non-US keyboards with layouts and protocols as similar as possible to the US keyboard? Is there flexibility to handle unusual situations (e.g., games, drivers that change keyboard behavior, "remote control" programs, etc.)? These questions are important, but most keyboards I can think of overlook one or more of them. (Examples on request.) Sorry to be heavy-handed... I just wish things were less messy and chaotic. Does anyone have info about the layout of the Knight (Lisp Machine) keyboard? -- Derek