From: Nicholas Bodley Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Delay lines (Was: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ??) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 10:15:31 -0400 Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc. Lines: 76 Message-ID: References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> <6qlun4$bk8$1@winter.news.erols.com> <35CE8788.3393545@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35CF77E3.4398@lucent.com> <01bdc81d$d303f2a0$916b400c@machshev> <35dd7873.52991804@news.iol.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: sunspot.tiac.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII To: Nick Spalding In-Reply-To: <35dd7873.52991804@news.iol.ie> Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-feed1.tiac.net!posterchild2!sunspot.tiac.net!nbodley Try "ultrasonic delay lines". The Friden EC-130 electronic desktop calculator (the world's second, or third, depending upon some details) used such a delay line. The EC-130 was highly engineered to be no more costly than necessary, while remaining very reliable. Wire ultrasonic delay lines used nickel-tape magnetostrictive transducers. The Friden line was made of quite-ordinary mild steel, I'm fairly sure; definitely not a costly alloy, but, no doubt, carefully qualified at incoming inspection. The suitability of an ordinary (mild steel?) wire was a surprise to the design engineers, iirc. Point is that if the pulses applied to a wire line are torsional (twists), they don't spread out (disperse) by any great amount. A few thousand can be launched, and still retain their identity, before the first one comes out the other end. The Friden EC-130 line could contain at least 1,000 pulses, nothing exciting. There were also glass or fused-quartz blocks (disks, crudely) with precisely-defined flat polished faces on their edges. A piezoelectric transducer would launch compressional waves into the block; they would bounce off the flat facets, crisscrossing previous paths, but not interfering. IIrc, possibly 10,000 pulses could be stored in such lines. A similar (or identical) transducer received the pulses. These delay lines must have been suitable for analog signals. I don't know about the wire type, but the blocks had decent s/n ratios, as I recall. One manufacturer of the block type was Allen Avionics (iirc, yet again!). Anyone who knows about delay lines for the SECAM TV system used in France should have something interesting to contribute. I strongly suspect that signals in SECAM delay lines were/are analog. Just about positive they had a delay time of one horizontal scan line, which should make it something like 65 microseconds, roughly. Bell Labs, iirc, a long time ago, built an optical delay line from two facing mirrors that were almost flat; they might have been deformed by warping harnesses. IIrc, a modulated collimated laser beam was bounced back and forth; foggy and very uncertain recollection is a possible 12 microsecond delay. ===== On Sat, 15 Aug 1998, Nick Spalding wrote: }Harold Zvi Rabbie wrote: } }> I seem to recall an early data storage device which consisted of a long }> coil of piano wire, with piezo-electric transducers at each end. One of }> the transducers pumped bits into the wire as sound waves, which some time }> later came out of the other end where they were detected and regenerated. }> 1950's time frame? Quite likely; when the Friden EC-130 was designed, the technology had been proven. Friden's contribution was to show that they could be mass-produced at modest cost. IIrc, Friden offered their lines to other companies as components. Friden later reduced the diameter of the coil (originally something like 10 inches/25 cm.) to maybe 6 inches/15cm. approx.). }Such delay lines, made of some nickel alloy in a spiral shape, were }used in IBM 27-something terminal control boxes as late as 1968. }-- }Nick Spalding Bruce Lin suggested that I visit this newsgroup. No telling whether I can keep up, because there are so many interesting things on the 'Net! My regards to all, |* Nicholas Bodley *|* Electronic Technician {*} Autodidact & Polymath |* Waltham, Mass. *|* ----------------------------------------------- |* nbodley@tiac.net *|* The personal computer industry will have become |* Amateur musician *|* mature when crashes become unacceptable. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: "George R. Gonzalez" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Delay lines (Was: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ??) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 14:04:09 -0500 Organization: SkyPoint Communications, Inc. Lines: 32 Message-ID: <6r7afh$ion$1@shadow.skypoint.net> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> <6qlun4$bk8$1@winter.news.erols.com> <35CE8788.3393545@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35CF77E3.4398@lucent.com> <01bdc81d$d303f2a0$916b400c@machshev> <35dd7873.52991804@news.iol.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial052.skypoint.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!news.winternet.com!skypoint.com!not-for-mail Thre was even at least one CRT terminal that used a delay line to store its data. I don't recall the name. It was a big white mteal box with a standard-looking knob for an on-off switch. It worked fine except: (*) If you hit the table hard a few of the on-screen characters would change to gibberish. (*) It was very temperature sensitive. During August you could only run it for an hour or so before everything turned to gibberish. -------- Delay lines were also used in the first few decades of moving-target-indicator radars. These worked by storing a screenfull of radar returns in a memory, then subtracting the next scan, and displaying the difference. One delay line design was a multi-sided prism (19 sides?). If you launched a vibration into one of the faces, it would bounce around many many (53?) times due to internal reflections, and then exit out another face as it happened to hit that one at the proper 90 degree angle. A very clever design. a ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Delay lines (Was: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ??) Date: 16 Aug 1998 18:28:56 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 60 Message-ID: References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> <6qlun4$bk8$1@winter.news.erols.com> <35CE8788.3393545@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35CF77E3.4398@lucent.com> <01bdc81d$d303f2a0$916b400c@machshev> <35dd7873.52991804@news.iol.ie> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Nicholas Bodley writes: > > These delay lines must have been suitable for analog signals. I don't > know about the wire type, but the blocks had decent s/n ratios, as I > recall. One manufacturer of the block type was Allen Avionics (iirc, yet > again!). Yes, they are, alfter all piezo transducess are fairly linear devices. They are used for piezo loadspeakers. > Anyone who knows about delay lines for the SECAM TV system used in > France should have something interesting to contribute. I strongly > suspect that signals in SECAM delay lines were/are analog. Just about > positive they had a delay time of one horizontal scan line, which should > make it something like 65 microseconds, roughly. They are analog delay lines. The same are also in PAL TV. The delay is 1 scan line: 1/(25*870(?))s = 45us for SECAM 1/(25*625)s = 64us for PAL For those who have never looked at SECAM or PAL shematics: NTSC (National Television Standards Comitee, US+Japan) transfers pictures as: Y = r*R+g*G+b*B (rgb are constants, RGB are signal) YR = Y - R YB = Y - B C = YR and YB are AM modulated onto some carrier Transmission is then Y+C Distortions of YR and YB give you them nice colors (Never The Same Color) SECAM (don't know meaning, France and East Block) transfers pictures as: Y,YR,YB as in NTSC C = alternating YR or YB FM modulated onto some carrier Transmission is then Y+C The delay line provides the missing YB or YR from the last line. This is done by delaying an second copy of YR/B and then switching: Line 1,3,5,7... YR direct, YB from delay Line 2,4,6,8... YR from delay, YB direct PAL (Phase Alternate Line, most of west Europe) transfers pictures as: Y,YR,YB as in NTSC YR' is alternating YR or -YR C = YR' and YB are AM modulated onto some carrier Transmission is then Y+C The delay line provides the YR' from the last line. This is done to get YR'now - YR'last = YR'error, which is then subtracted from YR and YB to get the undistorted YR and YB -- home: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ work: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ *** It's true ! I read it on Usenet and the Web ! *** ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Delay lines (Was: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ??) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 20:28:37 +0000 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <35D740F5.752875F@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> <6qlun4$bk8$1@winter.news.erols.com> <35CE8788.3393545@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35CF77E3.4398@lucent.com> <01bdc81d$d303f2a0$916b400c@machshev> <35dd7873.52991804@news.iol.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 903299551 nnrp-05:24757 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 38 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.nacamar.de!insnet.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Nicholas Bodley wrote: > Anyone who knows about delay lines for the SECAM TV system used in > France should have something interesting to contribute. I strongly > suspect that signals in SECAM delay lines were/are analog. Just about > positive they had a delay time of one horizontal scan line, which should > make it something like 65 microseconds, roughly. SECAM is a colour encoding system used in France and the former USSR, in which a monochrome picture is transmitted, overlayed with red and blue difference on alternate lines, the overlay being an FM subcarrier. The colour difference is delayed through a glass block, or more recently delayed digitally, so that the colour differences from the previous line can be combined to give all three of the RGB separations. NTSC and PAL both use in phase and quadrature components of a subcarrier to carry vectors at right angles in the colour difference space (Pal uses R-Y (V) and B-Y (U), NTSC has the vectors slightly rotated from this). PAL however *inverts* the V signal on alternate lines, and sums the colour differences from the previous line using delay lines. For this reason phase errors (usually due to multipath) which appear as hue errors in NTSC, become fades to monochrome in PAL. One curious side effect is that it is possible to mix two PAL or NTSC signals correctly with two resistors, but mixing SECAM requires decoding and recoding. Hence the old joke: NTSC = Never Twice the Same Colo(u)r PAL = Pale And Lurid SECAM = Something Essentially Contrary to the American Method -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: jtnospam@epix.net Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Delay lines (Was: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ??) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 21:21:08 -0400 Organization: epix Internet Services Lines: 28 Message-ID: <35d78743$2$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> <6qlun4$bk8$1@winter.news.erols.com> <35CE8788.3393545@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35CF77E3.4398@lucent.com> <01bdc81d$d303f2a0$916b400c@machshev> <35dd7873.52991804@news.iol.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: itha-125ppp99.epix.net X-Newsreader: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.50 b50 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news-xfer.epix.net!news1.epix.net!epix-news while we're on the subject, let's not forget the machines (I think Binac was one) that ended up as the Univac I - with its mercury delay line tanks. Each tank had a number of piezo transducers in it, and was heated to a suitable temperature. Each line (one transducer pair) held, if I remember correctly, 10 words, each word consisting of 12 7 bit (with parity) characters - in a BCD like code, but using excess 3 for the numeric part, so A was zz 0100 (whatever the zones were for the first 3rd of the alphabet; probably 01). There were 2 error lights on the console - one called tank selection, which meant an invalid code in the hundreds or tens digit of an address, and TS (time selection) for an error in the units digit, which selected the time slot for the desired word out of the ten in the line. TS was much harder to clean up from than tank selection, and the consensus at the time was that it was appropriately named. Any Univac folks around remember DTMB-OMNIBUS? or what to do when a Uniservo (tape drive) had both its forward and backward thyratrons on? -- Julian & Mary Jane Thomas jt at epix dot net http://www.epix.net/~jt In the beautiful Finger Lakes Wine Country of New York State! -------------------------------------------------- All wiyht. Rho sritched mg kegtops awound? ###### From: Gary Tait Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Delay lines (Was: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ??) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 07:14:28 -0400 Organization: Not very organized Lines: 20 Message-ID: <35D81094.5756@zdnetmail.com> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> <6qlun4$bk8$1@winter.news.erols.com> <35CE8788.3393545@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35CF77E3.4398@lucent.com> <01bdc81d$d303f2a0$916b400c@machshev> <35dd7873.52991804@news.iol.ie> <35D740F5.752875F@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: taitg@zdnetmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: virginia.bmts.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) Cache-Post-Path: Virginia!unknown@pm3-141.primeline.net Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-dc.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!News.Vancouver.iSTAR.net!news.istar.net!nr1.ottawa.istar.net!not-for-mail Robert Billing wrote: > One curious side effect is that it is possible to mix two PAL or NTSC > signals correctly with two resistors, but mixing SECAM requires decoding > and recoding. > And that is why French TV studios use PAL studio equipment, and convert to SECAM later on in the line. -- Gary Tait,VE3VBF ; Homepage http://www.primeline.net/~tait ------------------------------------------------------------------ Please note that I use the Internet as a research / entertainment tool ,and I shall not recieve Email regarding the purchase, trade ,or reccomendation of merchandise , services, or intellectual property , unless I explicitly request such materials. If you Email me and wish a reply, Please use your REAL address with no spamblockers,etc. ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Delay lines (Was: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ??) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 07:25:26 +0000 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <35D7DAE6.80F03B9@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> <6qlun4$bk8$1@winter.news.erols.com> <35CE8788.3393545@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35CF77E3.4398@lucent.com> <01bdc81d$d303f2a0$916b400c@machshev> <35dd7873.52991804@news.iol.ie> <35d78743$2$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 903339002 nnrp-10:5206 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 12 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!btnet-peer!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail jtnospam@epix.net wrote: > Any Univac folks around remember DTMB-OMNIBUS? or what to do when a > Uniservo (tape drive) had both its forward and backward thyratrons on? I've a feeling that the right answer to this one is "run away". -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: jtnospam@epix.net Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Delay lines (Was: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ??) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:19:15 -0400 Organization: epix Internet Services Lines: 19 Message-ID: <35d8667b$1$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> <6qlun4$bk8$1@winter.news.erols.com> <35CE8788.3393545@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35CF77E3.4398@lucent.com> <01bdc81d$d303f2a0$916b400c@machshev> <35dd7873.52991804@news.iol.ie> <35d78743$2$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <35D7DAE6.80F03B9@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: itha-125ppp50.epix.net X-Newsreader: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.50 b50 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!netnews.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news-xfer.epix.net!news1.epix.net!epix-news In <35D7DAE6.80F03B9@tnglwood.demon.co.uk>, on 08/17/98 at 07:25 AM, Robert Billing said: >> Any Univac folks around remember DTMB-OMNIBUS? or what to do when a >> Uniservo (tape drive) had both its forward and backward thyratrons on? > I've a feeling that the right answer to this one is "run away". No need for that. With a heavy handkerchief or cloth, unplug the backward one, then plug it in again. -- Julian & Mary Jane Thomas jt at epix dot net http://www.epix.net/~jt In the beautiful Finger Lakes Wine Country of New York State! -------------------------------------------------- An aquarium is just interactive television for cats. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 02:44:58 +0200 Message-ID: From: peterk@combo.ganesha.com (Dr. Peter Kittel) Subject: Re: Delay lines (Was: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ??) Reply-To: peterk @ combo.ganesha.com References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> <6qlun4$bk8$1@winter.news.erols.com> <35CE8788.3393545@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35CF77E3.4398@lucent.com> <01bdc81d$d303f2a0$916b400c@machshev> <35dd7873.52991804@news.iol.ie> <6r7afh$ion$1@shadow.skypoint.net> X-Newsreader: rn7.bas Lines: 20 Organization: Private Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.ecrc.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!blackbush.xlink.net!ganesha.ganesha.com!shorter!combo.ganesha.com!peterk In article <6r7afh$ion$1@shadow.skypoint.net> "George R. Gonzalez" writes: > >Thre was even at least one CRT terminal that used a delay line to store >its data. Yes, at our Braunschweig uni in the 70's we had such terminals from ICL. The delay line was a big spiral lying in the bottom of the case. > It worked fine except: > >(*) If you hit the table hard a few of the on-screen characters would >change to gibberish. > >(*) It was very temperature sensitive. Oops, no, ours were very stable. -- Best Regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail: Private Site in Frankfurt, Germany \X/ peterk @ combo.ganesha.com