From: Sylvain GALLOIS Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 14:42:05 +0200 Lines: 8 Message-ID: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> Reply-To: Sylvain NNTP-Posting-Host: bordeaux3-20.hol.fr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [fr] (Win95; I) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!oleane!news1.isdnet.net!usenet Hi, When I start my computer (a P.C.), one step of this process is : an NVRAM check. So on screen I get the following message : checking NVRAM, no NVRAM. What is NVRAM ?? I'm frech so, responses on my idioma are welcomed. ###### From: Scott_Gregory@fp.cibc.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 15:43:35 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 11 Message-ID: <6q7a77$mc0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.61.221.19 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Aug 04 15:43:35 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.01; Windows NT) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!204.238.120.130!news-feeds.jump.net!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail In article <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr>, Sylvain wrote: > Hi, > What is NVRAM ?? Non-Volatile RAM (i.e. keeps its contents on power down.) sdg -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum ###### From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 16:30:43 GMT Organization: . Message-ID: <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <6q7a77$mc0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-231-48.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Lines: 22 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!btnet-peer!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail Also sprach Scott_Gregory@fp.cibc.com on Tue, 04 Aug 1998 15:43:35 GMT to alt.folklore.computers: > In article <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr>, > Sylvain wrote: > > Hi, > > What is NVRAM ?? > > Non-Volatile RAM (i.e. keeps its contents on power down.) Usually (afaik always) means static RAM with a backup battery or a backup condenser, such as the CMOS RAM in a PC. I don't think the (error?) message was referring thereto in this case: there would be other errors (setup info lost each time). You could also think of EEPROMs (or at least byte-programmable ones) as NVRAM. Anybody have an idea why this isn't done? -- MS *really* start to think they invented everything. Now they added electricity: in the last line of FreeCell's statistics, they express 'Current' in 'wins'. ###### From: glass2@glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: 4 Aug 1998 16:45:21 GMT Organization: IBM Austin Lines: 44 Message-ID: <6q7dr1$eqs$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <6q7a77$mc0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> Reply-To: wa4qal@vnet.ibm.com NNTP-Posting-Host: glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed1.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!nyd.news.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news-w.ans.net!news.chips.ibm.com!mdnews.btv.ibm.com!poknews.pok.ibm.com!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!not-for-mail In <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be>, lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) writes: >Also sprach Scott_Gregory@fp.cibc.com on Tue, 04 Aug 1998 >15:43:35 GMT to alt.folklore.computers: > >> In article <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr>, >> Sylvain wrote: >> > Hi, >> > What is NVRAM ?? >> >> Non-Volatile RAM (i.e. keeps its contents on power down.) > >Usually (afaik always) means static RAM with a backup battery or >a backup condenser, such as the CMOS RAM in a PC. I don't think >the (error?) message was referring thereto in this case: there >would be other errors (setup info lost each time). > >You could also think of EEPROMs (or at least byte-programmable >ones) as NVRAM. Anybody have an idea why this isn't done? > >-- >MS *really* start to think they invented everything. >Now they added electricity: in the last line of FreeCell's statistics, >they express 'Current' in 'wins'. I think the reason that EEPROMs aren't typically considered NVRAM is that while EEPROMs may be byte programmable, they aren't byte erasable. In order to erase a byte in an EEPROM, you have to erase an entire page (or other suitably large division). Thus, it's easy to store something in one, but it's much harder to store something else on top of where something was. Of course, this was the state as of about 10 years ago. I haven't kept real current with EEPROM techonology recently. I also remember a NVRAM that did not depend on battery backup (or super-capacitors). I think the technology was called ferroelectric cells (or something like that). I'm not sure if it ever made it into mass production or not. And, I won't even go into things like bubble memories. Dave P.S. Standard Disclaimer: I work for them, but I don't speak for them. ###### Message-ID: <35C7B508.7A05@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 17:27:36 -0800 From: Sam Yorko X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <6q7a77$mc0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <6q7dr1$eqs$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <35C74B65.160DA321@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: exosecure-symbol.psd.symbol.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: exosecure-symbol.psd.symbol.com Organization: news://newsread.exodus.net : Crossing the Invisible Line Lines: 20 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.wli.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news1.best.com!206.40.72.101.MISMATCH!kiowa.exodus.net!207.82.39.214.MISMATCH!newsread.exodus.net!exosecure-symbol.psd.symbol.com Robert Billing wrote: > > glass2@glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com wrote: > > > as of about 10 years ago. I haven't kept real current with EEPROM > > techonology recently. > > The ones I am using at the moment have to be reprogrammed page at a > time. > > > I also remember a NVRAM that did not depend on battery backup (or > > super-capacitors). I think the technology was called ferroelectric > > cells (or something like that). I'm not sure if it ever made it > > into mass production or not. > > I don't ever remember a commercial device, and yes, that was the right > word. > Look up Ramtron....... ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 18:56:53 +0100 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <35C74B65.160DA321@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <6q7a77$mc0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <6q7dr1$eqs$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 902254144 nnrp-04:17027 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 21 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail glass2@glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com wrote: > as of about 10 years ago. I haven't kept real current with EEPROM > techonology recently. The ones I am using at the moment have to be reprogrammed page at a time. > I also remember a NVRAM that did not depend on battery backup (or > super-capacitors). I think the technology was called ferroelectric > cells (or something like that). I'm not sure if it ever made it > into mass production or not. I don't ever remember a commercial device, and yes, that was the right word. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: "Ralph Wade Phillips" Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? X-Nntp-Posting-Host: 129.172.150.50 Message-ID: X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Lines: 31 Sender: nntp@news.boeing.com (Boeing NNTP News Access) Organization: The Boeing Company X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <6q7a77$mc0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 22:55:42 GMT Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!howland.erols.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!192.220.250.21!netnews1.nw.verio.net!netnews.nwnet.net!xyzzy!not-for-mail Hi, Luc! Luc Van der Veken wrote in message <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be>... >Also sprach Scott_Gregory@fp.cibc.com on Tue, 04 Aug 1998 >15:43:35 GMT to alt.folklore.computers: > >> In article <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr>, >> Sylvain wrote: >> > Hi, >> > What is NVRAM ?? >> >> Non-Volatile RAM (i.e. keeps its contents on power down.) > >Usually (afaik always) means static RAM with a backup battery or >a backup condenser, such as the CMOS RAM in a PC. I don't think >the (error?) message was referring thereto in this case: there >would be other errors (setup info lost each time). > >You could also think of EEPROMs (or at least byte-programmable >ones) as NVRAM. Anybody have an idea why this isn't done? > E2PROMS (EEPROMS) are also spec'ed as NVRAM in certain military specs. However, since E2PROMS have a limited number of writes, they are not considered "true" RAM, hence the distinction. RwP ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: 05 Aug 1998 00:39:45 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <6q7a77$mc0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) writes: > > You could also think of EEPROMs (or at least byte-programmable > ones) as NVRAM. Anybody have an idea why this isn't done? Speed. NV-RAMs are writen at the same speed as normal RAM. EEPROM or flash need special slower write cycles. -- home: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ work: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ *** It's true ! I read it on Usenet and the Web ! *** ###### From: jsavard@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca () Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: 5 Aug 1998 03:22:14 GMT Organization: Edmonton FreeNet, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Lines: 14 Message-ID: <6q8j56$uom$1@news.sas.ab.ca> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <6q7a77$mc0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <6q7dr1$eqs$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: fnt2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2.6] Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!torn!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.sas.ab.ca!jsavard glass2@glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com wrote: : I also remember a NVRAM that did not depend on battery backup (or : super-capacitors). I think the technology was called ferroelectric : cells (or something like that). I'm not sure if it ever made it : into mass production or not. As I recall, there was an NVRAM technology that did get into mass production, although I haven't heard much about it lately: nitride-drifted or something like that. Anyhow, I hear in comp.sys.mac.advocacy that IBM has recently revived the idea behind silicon-on-sapphire, although apparently it is going to use a less exotic insulator, in a 1 GHz PowerPC chip. John Savard ###### From: tait@primeline.net (Gary Tait) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: Wed, 05 Aug 98 13:58:47 GMT Organization: Bruce Municipal Telephone System Lines: 27 Message-ID: <902325424.731128@Virginia> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <6q7a77$mc0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: virginia.bmts.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.0 Beta #0 Cache-Post-Path: Virginia!unknown@pm3-148.primeline.net Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.clark.net!208.134.241.18!newsfeed.internetmci.com!207.136.80.160!cyclone.news.idirect.com!News.Toronto.iSTAR.net!News.Ottawa.iSTAR.net!news.istar.net!nr1.ottawa.istar.net!tait In article , Neil Franklin <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> wrote: #lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) writes: #> #> You could also think of EEPROMs (or at least byte-programmable #> ones) as NVRAM. Anybody have an idea why this isn't done? # #Speed. NV-RAMs are writen at the same speed as normal RAM. EEPROM or #flash need special slower write cycles. # # #-- #home: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ #work: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ #*** It's true ! I read it on Usenet and the Web ! *** Why ,when you already have a battery for the clock, and sram is cheaper than batteryless-NVRAM (whatever you decide it is). Gary Tait,VE3VBF ; Homepage http://www.primeline.net/~tait ------------------------------------------------------------------ Please note that I use the Internet as a research / entertainment tool ,and I shall not recieve Email regarding the purchase, trade ,or reccomendation of merchandise , services, or intellectual property , unless I explicitly request such materials. If you Email me and wish a reply, Please use your REAL address with no spamblockers,etc. ###### From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 17:51:58 GMT Organization: . Lines: 66 Message-ID: <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <6q7a77$mc0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: uu194-7-99-10.unknown.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!uunet!in5.uu.net!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail Also sprach "Ralph Wade Phillips" on Tue, 4 Aug 1998 22:55:42 GMT to alt.folklore.computers: > Hi, Luc! Hi, Ralph. > > Luc Van der Veken wrote in message <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be>... > >You could also think of EEPROMs (or at least byte-programmable > >ones) as NVRAM. Anybody have an idea why this isn't done? > > E2PROMS (EEPROMS) are also spec'ed as NVRAM in certain military > specs. However, since E2PROMS have a limited number of writes, they are not > considered "true" RAM, hence the distinction. The bottom message in this thread at the moment I read it, and actually the only one I can fully agree with. As for other reasons mentioned: (excluding the ones I forgot ;) BTW - the ones I'm using at work right now (actually smart cards) are 512 bytes, divided into 4 banks of 128, but programmable per 8 bytes. Erasing can only be done a chip at a time (strangely, as well to all 1's as to all 0's), but you can program 1's over 0's as well as 0's over 1's - in fact one of those is erasing too. Speeds: read and write (serially): both at 1 usec/bit, with an additional 1 usec between bytes, and (indeed) an additional longer delay after writing 8 bytes. - Not byte erasable: see above. - Not byte programmable: RAM and ROM differed originally in that RO was programmable only during manufacturing, and RA could be programmed in the app circuitry. Random Access = (or was) "both read and write acces at any time", not "access to any individual memory location". Also most current RAMs would not be RAM according to this criterium, because they're only accessible in banks of more than 1 bit. - Speed (special writing procedure, making it take longer than reading): Can magnetic core memory count as RAM? Reading it erases it iirc, so you lose your bits if you don't immediately write them back to the same cells (which is done by the hardware, of course - but it still means reading requires a special procedure, taking longer than writing). - Speed (as pure speed): There are already such differences in RAM speeds, that I wouldn't consider this a very strong argument. The initial reason for using cache RAM in a PC was not bus speed, but (cheap/slow) dynamic vs (expensive/fast) static RAM. AFAIK, bus speed was the motive for including a level 1 cache in the processor itself, in addition to an external level 2 (or is it the other way around - always forget if you start counting from the processor or from the DRAM side). Secondly: the existence of a 100ns eprom doesn't mean that everything slower than 100ns is not a RAM. Or is a bit-addressable array of 1024 pairs of high-power relays set up as D flipflops not a 1k static RAM? :-) -- MS *really* start to think they invented everything. Now they added electricity: in the last line of FreeCell's statistics, they express 'Current' in 'wins'. ###### From: dicks@math.ohio-state.NO.SPAM.edu (Ethan Dicks) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: 6 Aug 1998 15:52:59 GMT Organization: Department of Mathematics, The Ohio State University Lines: 57 Message-ID: <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: math.mps.ohio-state.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test66 (4 June 1998) Originator: dicks@math.ohio-state.edu (Ethan Dicks) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!not-for-mail In article <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be>, Luc Van der Veken wrote: >- Not byte programmable: >RAM and ROM differed originally in that RO was programmable only >during manufacturing, and RA could be programmed in the app >circuitry. Random Access = (or was) "both read and write acces at >any time", not "access to any individual memory location". >Can magnetic core memory count as RAM? >Reading it erases it iirc, so you lose your bits if you don't >immediately write them back to the same cells (which is done by >the hardware, of course - but it still means reading requires a >special procedure, taking longer than writing). Take this with a grain of salt (because I wasn't even born when this stuff was in common usage), but I've always understood that "RAM" got its name because of random address access, not random reads/writes to differentiate it from the technologies which were sequential in nature. Of course there were technologies like Williams storage tube memory that allowed writing 1-bits and reading any bits at any time, but could only erase all bits at once. That's not what I'm thinking of here. I used to work for a guy whose father worked at Columbus Coated Fabrics, at one time, a division of Borden that made fancy wallpaper. This guy worked at CCF from the 1940's through at least the 1970's. According to him, CCF received the _second_ computer in Columbus, an IBM 305 RAMAC, coincidentally a 1's compliment machine. It has mercury delay-line memory. To make a mercury delay memory, you start with a long (>10m) tube of mercury, stick a speaker on one end, and a microphone on the other. Now, you make sound waves from digital bits and vibrate the mercury. Some fixed time later (I don't know the speed of sound in metals), your waveforms erupt out the other end of the pipe. The microphone picks them up and electronically routes them back to the speaker, preserving the bits for when they're needed. It's a giant barrel-shifter, using mechanical means for storing the information. It is clearly a writable, but not random- access memory. You have to wait for your bits to come past the electronic portion of the memory device. It's time-inefficient, but, compared to some other contemporary technologies, space efficient for the number of bits being stored. Imagine the volume (and poor reliability) of a 1K RAM made of individual tubes. Even discrete transistor memory is enormous. I was once shown a 6' rack at the local gas utility, and told it was an 8K memory made of individual transistors. Feel free to toss in corrections. This is all before my time. My first mini was a PDP-8/l I got at the Dayton Hamvention in the early '80's. I still have it. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks http://www.infinet.com/~erd/ (dicks) at (math) . (ohio-state) . (edu) sellto: postmaster@[127.0.0.1] harvestbot fodder: president@whitehouse.gov fccinfo@fcc.gov root@[127.0.0.1] ###### From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 17:15:15 GMT Organization: . Lines: 28 Message-ID: <35cae06e.4327470@news.innet.be> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-177-133.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail Also sprach dicks@math.ohio-state.NO.SPAM.edu (Ethan Dicks) on 6 Aug 1998 15:52:59 GMT to alt.folklore.computers: > Take this with a grain of salt (because I wasn't even born when this > stuff was in common usage), but I've always understood that "RAM" got > its name because of random address access, not random reads/writes to > differentiate it from the technologies which were sequential in nature. I did consider the possibility that this was true, and maybe terminology shifted a bit over time (coincidentally, I thought of mercury delay memories too: in january they were mentioned in this ng, that was actually the first time I heard about them). <34aeed8d$2$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> (was one of the posts late in that thread) I decided to leave this part out, based on the thought that the "any address" criterium would make ROM a subdivision of RAM (maybe not all of them, but certainly the 27xx and 28xx series) - and that would be completely new to me. There could be a partial reason for EEPROM not being considered RAM in there however: maybe _both_ criteria need to be fulfilled? (i.e. both read and write access to any location at any time) -- MS *really* start to think they invented everything. Now they added electricity: in the last line of FreeCell's statistics, they express 'Current' in 'wins'. ###### From: John@kirsta.NOSPAM.demon.co.uk (John Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: Thu, 06 Aug 98 17:50:38 GMT Organization: the end of the universe Message-ID: <902425838anb@kirsta.NOSPAM.demon.co.uk> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> <35cae06e.4327470@news.innet.be> Reply-To: John@kirsta.NOSPAM.demon.co.uk X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 902432833 mail2news:12093 mail2news mail2news.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mail2News-Path: news.demon.net!kirsta.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: GM4ANB's version of Snews v1.29 Lines: 30 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!194.72.7.126!btnet-peer!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail In article <35cae06e.4327470@news.innet.be> lucvdv@null.net "Luc Van der Veken" writes: > There could be a partial reason for EEPROM not being considered > RAM in there however: maybe _both_ criteria need to be fulfilled? > (i.e. both read and write access to any location at any time) I think it was just historical accident. In the dim and distant past "RWM" (read-write memory) was occasionally used for what we now call RAM, do distinguish it from ROM and to recognise that the ROMs were indeed random access. But "RWM", though more logical, never took over from "RAM". I suspect this has more to do with human laziness and fondness of monosyllabism than anything else. I think - but I am well prepared to be corrected - that read-write memory appeared before read-only memory (in integrated form, I mean: not diode arrays or such) so that when RAM was first called RAM it was axiomatically read/write. J. -- John Morris Make the obvious change to the return address GM4ANB@GB7EDN.#77.GBR.EU to reply. ###### From: John@kirsta.NOSPAM.demon.co.uk (John Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: Thu, 06 Aug 98 17:58:32 GMT Organization: the end of the universe Message-ID: <902426312anb@kirsta.NOSPAM.demon.co.uk> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <6q7a77$mc0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <902325424.731128@Virginia> Reply-To: John@kirsta.NOSPAM.demon.co.uk X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 902432834 mail2news:12097 mail2news mail2news.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mail2News-Path: news.demon.net!kirsta.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: GM4ANB's version of Snews v1.29 Lines: 31 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.ecrc.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail In article <902325424.731128@Virginia> tait@primeline.net "Gary Tait" writes: > Why ,when you already have a battery for the clock, and sram is cheaper than > batteryless-NVRAM (whatever you decide it is). There's a really weird reason for this which hit me on a project in a previous life: safety approvals. Apparently (and I had to take the word of the safety guy on this) anything with a battery in it is deemed by some approvals authorities to be somewhat more dangerous than anything without, so has to go through additional and more stringent tests. So we used flash - which is just sectored EEPROM - for things that had to be non-volatile, and a half Farad capacitor to keep the clock going while the unit was powered down. Topic drift: I found it fascinating to be holding a bag of those caps - ten Farads in the palm of my hand - and thinking back to my school days years ago, where the teacher, explaining about capacitors, commented that a Farad was a very large value, and that we would only ever see microFarads, or possible a few milliFarads... J. -- John Morris Make the obvious change to the return address GM4ANB@GB7EDN.#77.GBR.EU to reply. ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 18:53:48 +0100 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <35C9EDAC.7EA27558@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 902426166 nnrp-04:24370 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 34 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Ethan Dicks wrote: > To make a mercury delay memory, you start with a long (>10m) tube of > mercury, stick a speaker on one end, and a microphone on the other. Now, The tubes Maurice Wilkes used (I went to his lectures in the 70s BTW) were more like 2M long, and were arranged in pairs with a pair of angled reflectors at the bottom like this... | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |____| | \ / \______/ Basically this gave a free surface at each end to dip the transducers in. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 20:42:35 GMT Organization: Videotron Communications Ltd. Lines: 31 Message-ID: <35ca129c.19239664@news.prosurfr.com> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> <35cae06e.4327470@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: c9169-004.prosurfr.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.videotron.ab.ca!not-for-mail lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) wrote, in part: >I decided to leave this part out, based on the thought that the >"any address" criterium would make ROM a subdivision of RAM RAM stands for Random Access Memory. What it is that is "random" is indeed the ability to access any memory address directly, as opposed to things like shift registers or spools of tape or mercury delay lines. It is certainly true that most read-only memories are also random access. However, a read-only memory is always indicated as such because the word "memory" implies the ability to both read and write. Not because the words "random access" refer to either reading or writing - they only refer to the access to addresses, not what operations may be performed. Memory is read-write by definition; an exception to that must be explicitly specified, and this is what makes the term RAM inapplicable to ROM. Before integrated circuit memories became practical, only one memory technology provided random access, so random-access memories were known by the name of the technology instead - as "core". While it is valid to refer to a core memory as RAM, the fact that the latter term is an acronym, and postdates the introduction of core memory, has tended to keep the older term in use. John Savard http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html ###### From: winter+spam@jurai.net Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: 10 Aug 1998 04:59:16 GMT Organization: RCN Internet Lines: 27 Message-ID: <6qlun4$bk8$1@winter.news.erols.com> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: sasami.jurai.net X-Trace: winter.news.erols.com 902725156 11912 207.153.65.3 (10 Aug 1998 04:59:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980514 (UNIX) (FreeBSD/2.2.6-STABLE (i386)) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!sasami.jurai.net!winter Ethan Dicks wrote: > Take this with a grain of salt (because I wasn't even born when this > stuff was in common usage) Damn, you were born before salt was in common use? > To make a mercury delay memory, you start with a long (>10m) tube of > mercury, stick a speaker on one end, and a microphone on the other. Now, > you make sound waves from digital bits and vibrate the mercury. Some > fixed time later (I don't know the speed of sound in metals), your waveforms > erupt out the other end of the pipe. The microphone picks them up and > electronically routes them back to the speaker, preserving the bits for > when they're needed. It's a giant barrel-shifter, using mechanical means > for storing the information. It is clearly a writable, but not random- > access memory. You have to wait for your bits to come past the electronic > portion of the memory device. Heh, I've heard of varients that used long loops of fiber-optics to do the same thing. How about using the mirror that they planted on the moon during Apollo for a memory device? :) -- | Matthew N. Dodd |This space | '78 Datsun 280Z | FreeBSD/NetBSD/Sprite/VMS | | winter@jurai.net |is for rent| '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,m68k,pmax,vax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | Are you k-rad elite enough for my webpage? | ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 06:39:20 +0100 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <35CE8788.3393545@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> <6qlun4$bk8$1@winter.news.erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 902728189 nnrp-09:28354 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 18 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail winter+spam@jurai.net wrote: > How about using the mirror that they planted on the moon during Apollo for > a memory device? :) That could be fun. BTW I once put together a system that involved two PDP11s talking by satellite. In the lab you saw the modem TX and RX lights going alternately, when hooked up to the satellite transponder on site there was a quite visible delay between message and reply. I suddenly realised that I was seeing the speed of light as a noticeable delay for the first time in my life, and it was a very strange feeling. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: Mon, 10 Aug 98 10:15:01 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <6qmkui$reb$1@strato.ultra.net> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> <6qlun4$bk8$1@winter.news.erols.com> <35CE8788.3393545@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: d13.dial-12.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 10 Aug 1998 11:18:42 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.xcom.net!news.ultranet.com!d13 In article <35CE8788.3393545@tnglwood.demon.co.uk>, Robert Billing wrote: >winter+spam@jurai.net wrote: > >> How about using the mirror that they planted on the moon during Apollo for >> a memory device? :) > > That could be fun. BTW I once put together a system that involved two >PDP11s talking by satellite. In the lab you saw the modem TX and RX >lights going alternately, when hooked up to the satellite transponder on >site there was a quite visible delay between message and reply. I >suddenly realised that I was seeing the speed of light as a noticeable >delay for the first time in my life, and it was a very strange feeling. > Wow. I would have liked to have seen that. /BAH Sigh! - Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: richm@ucesucks.mulveyr.roc.servtech.com (Rich) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: 10 Aug 1998 10:59:05 GMT Organization: Mulvey Home Node Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> <6qlun4$bk8$1@winter.news.erols.com> <35CE8788.3393545@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: mulveyr@ucesucks.mulveyr.roc.servtech.com NNTP-Posting-Host: mulveyr.roc.servtech.com X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.clark.net!198.138.0.5!newshub.northeast.verio.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!post.servtech.com!richm On Mon, 10 Aug 1998 06:39:20 +0100, Robert Billing wrote: >winter+spam@jurai.net wrote: > >> How about using the mirror that they planted on the moon during Apollo for >> a memory device? :) > > That could be fun. BTW I once put together a system that involved two >PDP11s talking by satellite. In the lab you saw the modem TX and RX >lights going alternately, when hooked up to the satellite transponder on >site there was a quite visible delay between message and reply. I >suddenly realised that I was seeing the speed of light as a noticeable >delay for the first time in my life, and it was a very strange feeling. > Well, if the satellite was in a geosynchronous orbit ( which is worst case, of course ) then the delay due to the speed of light was about .3 seconds. Most likely, far, far more of the latency was no doubt due to transmitter and receiver settling times for the RF equipment. - Rich -- Rich Mulvey My return address is my last name, followed by my first initial, @mulveyr.roc.servtech.com http://mulveyr.roc.servtech.com Amateur Radio: aa2ys@wb2wxq.#wny.ny.usa ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 21:09:35 +0000 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <35CF618F.6FD76592@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> <6qlun4$bk8$1@winter.news.erols.com> <35CE8788.3393545@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 902871742 nnrp-04:28864 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 27 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.idt.net!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Rich wrote: > Well, if the satellite was in a geosynchronous orbit ( which is worst > case, of course ) then the delay due to the speed of light was about .3 seconds. More like .4 with the paths I was using, certainly long enough to be noticeable ad the difference between TX and immediate RX, and a delay between them. > Most likely, far, far more of the latency was no doubt due to transmitter and > receiver settling times for the RF equipment. What are you going on about? The transponder was open in full duplex all the time, as this particular link worked in a rather odd way. Basically there was a full duplex voice circuit from rig to shore permanently assigned to the emergency telephone system, and our signal simply used it when the emergency phones were on hook, and lost it when the phones were in use. There was no "settling time", I know, I was there. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Philippe Nave Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <35CF77E3.4398@lucent.com> Sender: news@drnews.dr.lucent.com (Netnews Administration Login) NNTP-Posting-Host: pnave Reply-To: pnave@lucent.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Lucent Technologies References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> <6qlun4$bk8$1@winter.news.erols.com> <35CE8788.3393545@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 22:44:51 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Lines: 37 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.191.82.231!rockie.attcanada.net!prairie.attcanada.net!attcanada!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!207.24.196.41!nntphub.cb.lucent.com!bigtop!news Robert Billing wrote: > > winter+spam@jurai.net wrote: > > > How about using the mirror that they planted on the moon during Apollo for > > a memory device? :) > > That could be fun. BTW I once put together a system that involved two > PDP11s talking by satellite. In the lab you saw the modem TX and RX > lights going alternately, when hooked up to the satellite transponder on > site there was a quite visible delay between message and reply. I > suddenly realised that I was seeing the speed of light as a noticeable > delay for the first time in my life, and it was a very strange feeling. I've read about a couple of odd (theories/thought experiments/proposals) along these lines... one involved bouncing signals off micrometeorite swarms (I thought it was daft, but the assertion was "It Could Be Done!") and one involved setting up a chain of machines around the Internet and using the email store-and-forward latencies to create a sort of 'distributed virtual file storage system.' The idea in both cases was to manipulate a communications mechanism (speed of light, speed of Internet) that had a known delay time; if you could keep juggling the data fast enough, you would always have a measurable amount of information 'in transit' and you could theoretically keep tabs on more data than would fit on a 'static' medium like a local hard disk drive. These schemes struck me as being similar to the old joke about the truck driver trying to haul 2 tons of pigeons in crates over a bridge with a 1-ton load limit; 'as long as the birds are flying, the truck's not over the weight limit..' -- ======================================================================= Philippe D. Nave, Jr.| 'Cry havoc, and let slip the dogs of war!' Denver, Colorado USA | How's my posting? 1-800-DEV-NULL pnave@lucent.com | Reality 2.0: Score counter, extra men, and hints ###### From: dicks@math.ohio-state.NO.SPAM.edu (Ethan Dicks) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: 11 Aug 1998 17:52:51 GMT Organization: Department of Mathematics, The Ohio State University Lines: 74 Message-ID: <6qq0dj$2fq$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <6qlun4$bk8$1@winter.news.erols.com> <35CE8788.3393545@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35CF77E3.4398@lucent.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: math.mps.ohio-state.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test66 (4 June 1998) Originator: dicks@math.ohio-state.edu (Ethan Dicks) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!not-for-mail In article <35CF77E3.4398@lucent.com>, Philippe Nave wrote: >Robert Billing wrote: >> >> winter+spam@jurai.net wrote: >> >> > How about using the mirror that they planted on the moon during Apollo for >> > a memory device? :) Lessee - ~3sec round trip... that's a few bits. But, if you lose alignment, all your bits drain away into space. >> That could be fun. BTW I once put together a system that involved two >> PDP11s talking by satellite. In the lab you saw the modem TX and RX >> lights going alternately, when hooked up to the satellite transponder on >> site there was a quite visible delay between message and reply. I >> suddenly realised that I was seeing the speed of light as a noticeable >> delay for the first time in my life, and it was a very strange feeling. My first direct experience was trying to telnet from McMurdo Station back to Ohio. Geosynch orbit is ~26,000 miles above the equator, we are at 78S, the other transponder is at about 50N (Washington State). Some of the 850 ms RTT was switching delay, but a fair chunk of it was propagation from the bottom of the earth to high overhead and back (4 ground-to-orbit legs). >I've read about a couple of odd (theories/thought experiments/proposals) >along these lines... one involved bouncing signals off micrometeorite >swarms (I thought it was daft, but the assertion was "It Could Be >Done!") The U.S. Antarctic program looked into that 10 years ago as a way to implement portable field communications. The idea was that you didn't have to line up on a statellite, you bounced ultra-low bandwidth data off of the ionosphere that was perpetually being bombarded with micrometeorites, creating transitory reflective patches. IIRC, the device would have used code groups, a-la submarine three letter code groups for ELF transmissions. With codes, it would be possible to transmit status messages (need food, send plane, A-OK...) in under an hour. *Really* ultra-low bandwidth, with redundant transmissions. It was abandoned as being financially practical, but operationally cumbersome. > ... and one involved setting up a chain of machines around the >Internet and using the email store-and-forward latencies to create >a sort of 'distributed virtual file storage system.' The idea in >both cases was to manipulate a communications mechanism (speed of >light, speed of Internet) that had a known delay time; if you could >keep juggling the data fast enough, you would always have a measurable >amount of information 'in transit' and you could theoretically keep >tabs on more data than would fit on a 'static' medium like a local >hard disk drive. We were throwing that one around in 1986, using UUCP and manually forwarding uuencoded data packets around the world. Since the UUCP maps did contain information about how often a call was made (and even the general time of day (mornings, after -hours, 24x7, etc.)), it would be possible to tune the routes to keep packets mostly in order. Some friends of mine at OSU and I figured that you could theoretically migrate gigs around like that, if you didn't mind a 2-week access time on your data (back in the days of a 300Mb 8" hard disk being *really cool*). >These schemes struck me as being similar to the old joke about >the truck driver trying to haul 2 tons of pigeons in crates >over a bridge with a 1-ton load limit; 'as long as the birds >are flying, the truck's not over the weight limit..' Isn't that something like if the elevator cables break, jump right before the elevator hits bottom? ;-) -ethan -- Ethan Dicks http://www.infinet.com/~erd/ (dicks) at (math) . (ohio-state) . (edu) sellto: postmaster@[127.0.0.1] harvestbot fodder: president@whitehouse.gov fccinfo@fcc.gov root@[127.0.0.1] ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 18:58:30 +0000 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <35D09456.11AB6A11@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> <6qlun4$bk8$1@winter.news.erols.com> <35CE8788.3393545@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35CF77E3.4398@lucent.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 902871747 nnrp-04:28864 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 17 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Philippe Nave wrote: > along these lines... one involved bouncing signals off micrometeorite > swarms (I thought it was daft, but the assertion was "It Could Be IIRC it has been done, and was written up in Wireless World a few years ago. The virtue of it is that the mm showers open channels between only a few points on the earth at once, and hence communication is quite secure. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 03:13:25 +0200 Message-ID: From: peterk@combo.ganesha.com (Dr. Peter Kittel) Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Reply-To: peterk @ combo.ganesha.com References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> <6qlun4$bk8$1@winter.news.erols.com> <35CE8788.3393545@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> X-Newsreader: rn7.bas Lines: 22 Organization: Private Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!btnet-peer!btnet!newsfeed.ecrc.net!blackbush.xlink.net!ganesha.ganesha.com!shorter!combo.ganesha.com!peterk In article <35CE8788.3393545@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> Robert Billing writes: >winter+spam@jurai.net wrote: > >> How about using the mirror that they planted on the moon during Apollo for >> a memory device? :) > > That could be fun. BTW I once put together a system that involved two >PDP11s talking by satellite. In the lab you saw the modem TX and RX >lights going alternately, when hooked up to the satellite transponder on >site there was a quite visible delay between message and reply. I >suddenly realised that I was seeing the speed of light as a noticeable >delay for the first time in my life, and it was a very strange feeling. Yes, this is a very nice effect. In a science show on TV many years ago the moderator had two monitors behind him. One showed the direct picture from the studio, the other the picture after travelling to a satellite and back. When the moderator then waved his arm, you could easily see the delay in the satellite branch. I liked it, too. -- Best Regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail: Private Site in Frankfurt, Germany \X/ peterk @ combo.ganesha.com ###### From: joet@jtcs.net (joet) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 13:19:20 -0400 Organization: jtcs Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> <6qlun4$bk8$1@winter.news.erols.com> <35CE8788.3393545@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-267.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Anawave Gravity v2.00 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 In article , peterk@combo.ganesha.com says... > Yes, this is a very nice effect. In a science show on TV many years > ago the moderator had two monitors behind him. One showed the direct > picture from the studio, the other the picture after travelling to a > satellite and back. When the moderator then waved his arm, you could > easily see the delay in the satellite branch. I liked it, too. Early early early morning on New Year's Day 1984, there was a live avant garde thing broadcast on PBS called "Good Morning Mr. Orwell" with people like Laurie Anderson. One piece had a satellite hookup between New York and Paris and a ballet-type dancer shown on multiple monitors, displayed both locally and over the link. They claimed that the transmission delay incorporated into the piece was the first use of the speed of light as part of a live performance. (Or something like that.) -joet ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Philippe Nave Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <35D32F2D.56C3@lucent.com> Sender: news@drnews.dr.lucent.com (Netnews Administration Login) NNTP-Posting-Host: pnave Reply-To: pnave@lucent.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Lucent Technologies References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> <6qlun4$bk8$1@winter.news.erols.com> <35CE8788.3393545@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35CF77E3.4398@lucent.com> <35D09456.11AB6A11@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 18:23:41 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Lines: 25 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!ubnnews.unisource.ch!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter.cosy.sbg.ac.at!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!europa.clark.net!204.127.161.3!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!207.24.196.41!nntphub.cb.lucent.com!bigtop!news Robert Billing wrote: > > Philippe Nave wrote: > > > along these lines... one involved bouncing signals off micrometeorite > > swarms (I thought it was daft, but the assertion was "It Could Be > > IIRC it has been done, and was written up in Wireless World a few years > ago. The virtue of it is that the mm showers open channels between only > a few points on the earth at once, and hence communication is quite > secure. Wow. (No sarcasm, that... an actual "I'll be damned!" "Wow!") When I heard the 'bounce signals off micrometeorite swarms' idea, I instantly filed it right next to 'Elvis sighted at K-Mart' in my mental 'yeah, right!' file. Seems I was mistaken, eh? Philippe -- ======================================================================= Philippe D. Nave, Jr.| 'Cry havoc, and let slip the dogs of war!' Denver, Colorado USA | How's my posting? 1-800-DEV-NULL pnave@lucent.com | Reality 2.0: Score counter, extra men, and hints ###### From: glass2@glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: 13 Aug 1998 19:05:01 GMT Organization: IBM Austin Lines: 47 Message-ID: <6qvdct$13tu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> <6qlun4$bk8$1@winter.news.erols.com> <35CE8788.3393545@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35CF77E3.4398@lucent.com> <35D09456.11AB6A11@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35D32F2D.56C3@lucent.com> Reply-To: wa4qal@vnet.ibm.com NNTP-Posting-Host: glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-dc.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!news.tivoli.com!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!not-for-mail In <35D32F2D.56C3@lucent.com>, Philippe Nave writes: >Robert Billing wrote: >> >> Philippe Nave wrote: >> >> > along these lines... one involved bouncing signals off micrometeorite >> > swarms (I thought it was daft, but the assertion was "It Could Be >> >> IIRC it has been done, and was written up in Wireless World a few years >> ago. The virtue of it is that the mm showers open channels between only >> a few points on the earth at once, and hence communication is quite >> secure. > >Wow. (No sarcasm, that... an actual "I'll be damned!" "Wow!") > >When I heard the 'bounce signals off micrometeorite swarms' idea, I >instantly filed it right next to 'Elvis sighted at K-Mart' in my >mental 'yeah, right!' file. Seems I was mistaken, eh? > > Philippe > >-- >======================================================================= >Philippe D. Nave, Jr.| 'Cry havoc, and let slip the dogs of war!' >Denver, Colorado USA | How's my posting? 1-800-DEV-NULL >pnave@lucent.com | Reality 2.0: Score counter, extra men, and hints Actually, amateur radio operators have been using meteor scatter mode for decades. Typically, individual meteor trails are used, and the path is only open for a matter of seconds. However, this is plenty of time to exchange information, either via voice, CW, or a digital mode (e.g., packet, using an AX.25 protocol). With a digital mode, the transmitter can keep beaconing out packets until a meteor arrives, and then complete the communications with the distant station. The amount of time the path is open depends upon the size of the meteor, and the frequency being used. There are some excellent references available, some of which are published by the ARRL. Other exotic modes are also used, including auroral scatter, E-layer ionization, tropospheric ducting, EME (moon-bounce), satellites, balloons, and several other modes. Dave P.S. Standard Disclaimer: I work for them, but I don't speak for them. ###### From: "Harold Zvi Rabbie" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: 15 Aug 1998 07:29:33 GMT Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 30 Message-ID: <01bdc81d$d303f2a0$916b400c@machshev> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> <6qlun4$bk8$1@winter.news.erols.com> <35CE8788.3393545@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35CF77E3.4398@lucent.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.64.107.145 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1162 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.225!attworldnet!newsadm Philippe Nave wrote in article <35CF77E3.4398@lucent.com>... > Robert Billing wrote: > > > > winter+spam@jurai.net wrote: > > > > > How about using the mirror that they planted on the moon during Apollo for > > > a memory device? :) > > The idea in > both cases was to manipulate a communications mechanism (speed of > light, speed of Internet) that had a known delay time; if you could > keep juggling the data fast enough, you would always have a measurable > amount of information 'in transit' and you could theoretically keep > tabs on more data than would fit on a 'static' medium like a local > hard disk drive. I seem to recall an early data storage device which consisted of a long coil of piano wire, with piezo-electric transducers at each end. One of the transducers pumped bits into the wire as sound waves, which some time later came out of the other end where they were detected and regenerated. 1950's time frame? -- Harold Rabbie Saratoga, CA Remove spam trap when replying ###### From: "George R. Gonzalez" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 09:23:38 -0500 Organization: SkyPoint Communications, Inc. Lines: 17 Message-ID: <6r45li$2r8$1@shadow.skypoint.net> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> <6qlun4$bk8$1@winter.news.erols.com> <35CE8788.3393545@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35CF77E3.4398@lucent.com> <35D09456.11AB6A11@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35D32F2D.56C3@lucent.com> <6qvdct$13tu$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial031.skypoint.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!news.pagesat.net!skypoint.com!not-for-mail >>> Philippe Nave wrote: >>> >>> > along these lines... one involved bouncing signals off micrometeorite >>> > swarms (I thought it was daft, but the assertion was "It Could Be This method was used in the '50s for DEW line communications. It requires high-power transmitters (hundreds of watts) and some transmission coding that can recover from dropouts and errors. Not too good for voice communications, but good enough for short teletype messages. (hmmm... that was about the time Elvis came around.... ) ###### From: spalding@iol.ie (Nick Spalding) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 13:03:48 +0100 Organization: Ireland On-Line Lines: 12 Message-ID: <35dd7873.52991804@news.iol.ie> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> <6qlun4$bk8$1@winter.news.erols.com> <35CE8788.3393545@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35CF77E3.4398@lucent.com> <01bdc81d$d303f2a0$916b400c@machshev> Reply-To: spalding@iol.ie NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-103.dublin.iol.ie Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!iol!iol.ie!not-for-mail Harold Zvi Rabbie wrote: > I seem to recall an early data storage device which consisted of a long > coil of piano wire, with piezo-electric transducers at each end. One of > the transducers pumped bits into the wire as sound waves, which some time > later came out of the other end where they were detected and regenerated. > 1950's time frame? Such delay lines, made of some nickel alloy in a spiral shape, were used in IBM 27-something terminal control boxes as late as 1968. -- Nick Spalding ###### From: jcmorris@mwunix.mitre.org (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: 15 Aug 1998 15:53:42 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 25 Message-ID: <6r4au6$eu@top.mitre.org> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> <6qlun4$bk8$1@winter.news.erols.com> <35CE8788.3393545@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35CF77E3.4398@lucent.com> <01bdc81d$d303f2a0$916b400c@machshev> NNTP-Posting-Host: mwunix.mitre.org Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!204.97.128.3!usenet.logical.net!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!mwunix!jcmorris "Harold Zvi Rabbie" writes: >I seem to recall an early data storage device which consisted of a long >coil of piano wire, with piezo-electric transducers at each end. One of >the transducers pumped bits into the wire as sound waves, which some time >later came out of the other end where they were detected and regenerated. >1950's time frame? There were all sorts of devices that used acoustic delay lines such as you've described for memory. One that's occasionally been mentioned here (partly because *I* occasionally mention it ) was the IBM 2848 control unit which serviced the ancient 2260 display terminals; the entire screen contents were kept in an acoustic delay line (one delay line per terminal; all that was in the actual terminal was a keyboard and a display that received video from the controller). I'm not at all sure when the wire-based acoustic delay line became popular; the 2260s were a 1960s product. Some 1950s systems used liquids as the propagation medium in acoustic delay lines; mercury was the common material used. (von Neumann is reported to have suggested that gin be used instead so that if you were having a bad day there would always be some liquid refreshment nearby...) Joe Morris ###### From: joet@jtcs.net (joet) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 08:29:00 -0400 Organization: jtcs Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> <6qlun4$bk8$1@winter.news.erols.com> <35CE8788.3393545@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <6r6bvl$ra9$1@unlisys.unlisys.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-996.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Anawave Gravity v2.00 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 In article <6r6bvl$ra9$1@unlisys.unlisys.net>, wolfi@berlin.snafu.de says... > Robert Billing writes: > > >site there was a quite visible delay between message and reply. I > >suddenly realised that I was seeing the speed of light as a noticeable > >delay for the first time in my life, and it was a very strange feeling. > > Not a very unusual thing, is it? Neither is playing CD quality audio from the internet in real time. But I remember being amazed in the early 80's when I had two RSTS/E PDP- 11/70's hooked together in the same room and I logged in to one, then remotely logged in to the other, and then back to fhe fist, and so on... ALMOST FOUR TIMES! (The keystroke echo delay was about 15 seconds at that point.) We become jaded very quickly in this biz. -joet ###### From: wolfi@berlin.snafu.de (Wolfgang Schwanke) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: 16 Aug 1998 10:23:49 GMT Organization: [Posted via] Interactive Networx Lines: 21 Message-ID: <6r6bvl$ra9$1@unlisys.unlisys.net> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> <6qlun4$bk8$1@winter.news.erols.com> <35CE8788.3393545@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: berlin.snafu.de x-no-archive: yes X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #3 (NOV) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!oleane!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news-hh.maz.net!unlisys!news.snafu.de!wolfi Robert Billing writes: >site there was a quite visible delay between message and reply. I >suddenly realised that I was seeing the speed of light as a noticeable >delay for the first time in my life, and it was a very strange feeling. Not a very unusual thing, is it? If you have a satellite dish or receive cable TV containing satelite feeds, you can have this effect every day. All you need is two tellys: One tuned to a terrestrial station, one to its version rebroadcast via satellite [if you find one - news programmes who are multicast on several terrestrial and satellite channels are a good chance for rexample]. Instant echo. Greetings -- wolfi@techno.de + wolfi@snafu.de + http://www.snafu.de/~wolfi/ + IRC:wolfi Las radiaciones tostan y matizan de azul ###### From: Nicholas Bodley Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 10:32:10 -0400 Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc. Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> <6qlun4$bk8$1@winter.news.erols.com> <35CE8788.3393545@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <6r6bvl$ra9$1@unlisys.unlisys.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: sunspot.tiac.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-feed1.tiac.net!posterchild2!sunspot.tiac.net!nbodley Someone reading this must have pointed a closed-circuit TV camera at a monitor displaying the same camera's output. It's interesting to think where the video is stored, especially if you're using 1960s technology. (I remember when a clueless technician got extremely upset when another tech was about to try doing this; he said doing it would burn out [the camera, the monitor or both]. Nothing like failing utterly to understand the fundamentals.) (Like the technician trainee who confidently measured a fuse with the resistance range of his multimeter, found it shorted, and threw it away.) Clueless tech. of video feedback category didn't seem too alarmed at the thought of pointing the camera at the fluorescent lights overhead. These were vidicon days. Best, |* Nicholas Bodley *|* Electronic Technician {*} Autodidact & Polymath |* Waltham, Mass. *|* ----------------------------------------------- |* nbodley@tiac.net *|* The personal computer industry will have become |* Amateur musician *|* mature when crashes become unacceptable. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 12:23:33 +0000 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <35D6CF45.6F7B1095@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> <6qlun4$bk8$1@winter.news.erols.com> <35CE8788.3393545@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <6r6bvl$ra9$1@unlisys.unlisys.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 903270331 nnrp-02:11681 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 19 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.maz.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Wolfgang Schwanke wrote: > Not a very unusual thing, is it? If you have a satellite dish or > receive cable TV containing satelite feeds, you can have this effect > every day. All you need is two tellys: One tuned to a terrestrial This is a nice illustration of something or other. When I did this for the first time (about 20 years ago) there was of course hardly any (or no) domestic satellite TV. There ought to be a word for the diminishing time delay between something being very surprising when you first get it to work, and somebody saying that it is commonplace. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: 16 Aug 1998 23:53:35 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 9 Message-ID: <6r7rdv$q9j@freenet-news.carleton.ca> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> <6qlun4$bk8$1@winter.news.erols.com> <35CE8788.3393545@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35CF77E3.4398@lucent.com> <01bdc81d$d303f2a0$916b400c@machshev> <6r4au6$eu@top.mitre.org> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet2.carleton.ca X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet2.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!europa.clark.net!209.130.129.214!nntp.frontiernet.net!node17.frontiernet.net!xcski.com!freenet-news.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Joe Morris (jcmorris@mwunix.mitre.org) writes: > > Some 1950s systems used liquids as the propagation medium in acoustic > delay lines; mercury was the common material used. (von Neumann is > reported to have suggested that gin be used instead so that if you were > having a bad day there would always be some liquid refreshment nearby...) ... thus giving one the Double Buzz! ###### From: ponion@srd.bt.co.uk (Peter Onion) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: 17 Aug 1998 09:03:41 GMT Organization: BT Labs, Martlesham Heath, Ipswich, UK Lines: 19 Message-ID: <6r8rld$2fe$1@pheidippides.axion.bt.co.uk> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> <6qlun4$bk8$1@winter.news.erols.com> <35CE8788.3393545@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35CF77E3.4398@lucent.com> <01bdc81d$d303f2a0$916b400c@machshev> NNTP-Posting-Host: almodovar.srd.bt.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Newsreader: knews 0.9.8 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.maz.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!btnet-peer!btnet-feed2!btnet!bt!not-for-mail In article <01bdc81d$d303f2a0$916b400c@machshev>, "Harold Zvi Rabbie" writes: > I seem to recall an early data storage device which consisted of a long > coil of piano wire, with piezo-electric transducers at each end. One of > the transducers pumped bits into the wire as sound waves, which some time > later came out of the other end where they were detected and regenerated. > 1950's time frame? > The Elliott 803 used nickel delay lines. Infact the majority of the machine (interms of the number of bits in all the registers etc) existed in delay lines. I think they were a common device in the days of bit serial machines, as a few inches of nickle wire were much cheaper than the equivalent number of "bits" of logic. Peter Onion. ###### From: Michael Orlov Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 11:19:59 +0300 Organization: Ben-Gurion University, Beer Sheva, Israel Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <35c932fe.2921497@news.innet.be> <35c88a06.2299970@news.innet.be> <6qcjgr$51u$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> <6qlun4$bk8$1@winter.news.erols.com> <35CE8788.3393545@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: Michael Orlov NNTP-Posting-Host: arava.bgu.ac.il Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: orlovm@arava.bgu.ac.il In-Reply-To: Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!news.ibm.net.il!ibm.net!news.biu.ac.il!news.huji.ac.il!avdat2.bgu.ac.il!arava.bgu.ac.il!orlovm On 10 Aug 1998, Rich wrote: > On Mon, 10 Aug 1998 06:39:20 +0100, Robert Billing wrote: > >winter+spam@jurai.net wrote: > > > >> How about using the mirror that they planted on the moon during Apollo for > >> a memory device? :) > > > > That could be fun. BTW I once put together a system that involved two > >PDP11s talking by satellite. In the lab you saw the modem TX and RX > >lights going alternately, when hooked up to the satellite transponder on > >site there was a quite visible delay between message and reply. I > >suddenly realised that I was seeing the speed of light as a noticeable > >delay for the first time in my life, and it was a very strange feeling. > > > Well, if the satellite was in a geosynchronous orbit ( which is worst > case, of course ) then the delay due to the speed of light was about .3 seconds. > Most likely, far, far more of the latency was no doubt due to transmitter and > receiver settling times for the RF equipment. But why, according to what you say it was indeed noticeable delay. .3 sec is quite enough time. ###### From: hawk@eyry.econ.iastate.edu (Richard E. Hawkins Esq.) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unknown term, can somebody help me ?? Date: 25 Aug 1998 14:03:48 -0500 Organization: House of Hawkins Lines: 20 Message-ID: <6rv1qk$oj6$1@eyry.econ.iastate.edu> References: <35C7019D.EAE8CE40@hol.fr> <6qlun4$bk8$1@winter.news.erols.com> <35CE8788.3393545@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: eyry.econ.iastate.edu Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!europa.clark.net!141.211.144.13!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!news.iastate.edu!not-for-mail In article , Dr. Peter Kittel wrote: >Yes, this is a very nice effect. In a science show on TV many years >ago the moderator had two monitors behind him. One showed the direct >picture from the studio, the other the picture after travelling to a >satellite and back. When the moderator then waved his arm, you could >easily see the delay in the satellite branch. I liked it, too. Four or so years ago, I was sitting with a friend in a San Diego sports bar watching a football game which was being played about a mile away. Some of the televisions were tuned to satellite, and others to the local channel. It took a while, but we finally noticed a delay of a significant fraction of a second, with the satellite being *ahead* of the local signal. Which makes sense, once you think about it. rick -- These opinions will not be those of ISU until it pays my retainer.