From: yakko@vcn.bc.ca (Michael Morse) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Date: 4 Aug 1998 05:32:51 GMT Organization: Vancouver CommunityNet Lines: 5 Message-ID: <6q66e3$hmt$1@garfield.vcn.bc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: opus.vcn.bc.ca X-Trace: garfield.vcn.bc.ca 902208771 18141 207.102.64.2 (4 Aug 1998 05:32:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: sys-admin@vcn.bc.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Aug 1998 05:32:51 GMT X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 BETA-950824-16colors PL0] Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!garfield.vcn.bc.ca!not-for-mail My theory is that the Xerox people would have tried to stop the Apple people from walking out the door with the idea for the WIMP interface, but they couldn't get out of the beanbag chairs. Mike ###### From: jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 16:11:02 GMT Organization: Videotron Communications Ltd. Lines: 25 Message-ID: <35c73143.3498856@news.prosurfr.com> References: <6q66e3$hmt$1@garfield.vcn.bc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: c9169-004.prosurfr.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news1.bellglobal.com!torn!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.videotron.ab.ca!not-for-mail yakko@vcn.bc.ca (Michael Morse) wrote, in part: >My theory is that the Xerox people would have tried to stop the Apple >people from walking out the door with the idea for the WIMP interface, but >they couldn't get out of the beanbag chairs. Heh. Actually, it probably seemed at the time that the WIMP interface was a visionary idea, useful for the far future, but of no real immediate commercial potential. After all, it was running on some very expensive hardware. The Apple Lisa flopped because of its high price, and the original Mac, with 128 K of RAM, was affordable - but not powerful enough to do useful work with such an interface. (And *always remember*: Apple took steps to force people to pay, to Apple, a higher price to upgrade the original Mac to 512K than the price of the memory chips. They deliberately chose not to make the original Mac easily upgradeable - to charge monopoly prices, based on how much more useful a Mac with 512K would be, instead of commodity prices, based on how much extra the memory chips cost.) John Savard http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html ###### From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 19:44:00 -0600 Organization: Prairie Group Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <6q66e3$hmt$1@garfield.vcn.bc.ca> <35c73143.3498856@news.prosurfr.com> X-Trace: 902277846 TTRZJ8PGDA677CDB8 usenet36.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!worldfeed.gte.net!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!don.brown OIn article <35c73143.3498856@news.prosurfr.com>, jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) wrote: >yakko@vcn.bc.ca (Michael Morse) wrote, in part: > >>My theory is that the Xerox people would have tried to stop the Apple >>people from walking out the door with the idea for the WIMP interface, but >>they couldn't get out of the beanbag chairs. > >Heh. Actually, it probably seemed at the time that the WIMP interface >was a visionary idea, useful for the far future, but of no real >immediate commercial potential. > >After all, it was running on some very expensive hardware. > >The Apple Lisa flopped because of its high price, and the original >Mac, with 128 K of RAM, was affordable - but not powerful enough to do >useful work with such an interface. > >(And *always remember*: Apple took steps to force people to pay, to >Apple, a higher price to upgrade the original Mac to 512K than the >price of the memory chips. They deliberately chose not to make the >original Mac easily upgradeable - to charge monopoly prices, based on >how much more useful a Mac with 512K would be, instead of commodity >prices, based on how much extra the memory chips cost.) > Xerox showed some of the ideas that came into the Mac. Actually, it was mostly the idea of a GUI. But, there was very little in common between the interfaces. The menu bar, for example, didn't exist in the Xerox Star. Donald ###### From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Date: 5 Aug 98 13:23:11 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <35c8b98c.4652438@news.prosurfr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@globalcenter.net X-Posted-By: @206.165.43.42 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/alt.folklore.computers, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!worldfeed.gte.net!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail John Savard said: >don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote, in part: > >>But, there was very little in common between the interfaces. The menu >>bar, for example, didn't exist in the Xerox Star. > >True, but menu bars did exist in plenty of DOS programs, such as Lotus >1-2-3; naturally, if the Mac was aimed at the mainstream (the Xerox >Star being experimental) it would have copied a few missing pieces >from there. If you really want to know how the Mac got its interface, e-mail Jef Raskin and ask him. He was using AOL for e-mail, last I heard, so you can probably find him pretty easily. The real story isn't anything like what the various books say it is. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 20:00:23 GMT Organization: Videotron Communications Ltd. Lines: 12 Message-ID: <35c8b98c.4652438@news.prosurfr.com> References: <6q66e3$hmt$1@garfield.vcn.bc.ca> <35c73143.3498856@news.prosurfr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c9169-004.prosurfr.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!cyclone.news.idirect.com!news1.bellglobal.com!torn!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.videotron.ab.ca!not-for-mail don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote, in part: >But, there was very little in common between the interfaces. The menu >bar, for example, didn't exist in the Xerox Star. True, but menu bars did exist in plenty of DOS programs, such as Lotus 1-2-3; naturally, if the Mac was aimed at the mainstream (the Xerox Star being experimental) it would have copied a few missing pieces from there. John Savard http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html ###### From: "Andrew Ducker" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 09:37:05 +0100 Lines: 14 Message-ID: <6qbvq1$cfs$1@heliodor.xara.net> References: <35c8b98c.4652438@news.prosurfr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.147.8.79 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.itg.net.uk!usenet Lawson English wrote in message ... >If you really want to know how the Mac got its interface, e-mail Jef Raskin >and ask him. He was using AOL for e-mail, last I heard, so you can probably >find him pretty easily. > >The real story isn't anything like what the various books say it is. Is it ever? Andy D ###### From: rob@hafernik.com (Rob Hafernik) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 09:49:01 -0600 Organization: SAC Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <35c8b98c.4652438@news.prosurfr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: as5-dialup-44.io.com X-Trace: hiram.io.com 902414969 20695 206.224.81.44 (6 Aug 1998 14:49:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@io.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Aug 1998 14:49:29 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2.2 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!worldfeed.gte.net!nntp.giganews.com!solomon.io.com!hiram.io.com!as5-dialup-44.io.com!user > >True, but menu bars did exist in plenty of DOS programs, such as Lotus > >1-2-3; naturally, if the Mac was aimed at the mainstream (the Xerox > >Star being experimental) it would have copied a few missing pieces > >from there. Was Lotus 1-2-3 out before the Mac was designed? I don't THINK so, but I could be wrong. Also, the Lisa came first and IT had menus. I seem to recall that the trend toward menus and windows in character-mode DOS programs came AFTER the Mac was out. I don't recall that WordStar, for example, had menus or menu bars in the early days. ###### From: "Jeffrey S. Dutky" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 14:33:19 -0400 Organization: Bell Atlantic Internet Solutions Lines: 31 Message-ID: <35C9F6E0.4A5@bellatlantic.net> References: <35c8b98c.4652438@news.prosurfr.com> Reply-To: dutky@bellatlantic.net NNTP-Posting-Host: client-151-200-124-136.bellatlantic.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!outfeed1.news.cais.net!in1.nntp.cais.net!world2.bellatlantic.net!news Rob Hafernik wrote: > > > > True, but menu bars did exist in plenty of DOS programs, > > > such as Lotus 1-2-3; naturally, if the Mac was aimed at > > > the mainstream (the Xerox Star being experimental) it > > > would have copied a few missing pieces from there. > > Was Lotus 1-2-3 out before the Mac was designed? I don't > THINK so, but I could be wrong. Also, the Lisa came first > and IT had menus. I seem to recall that the trend toward > menus and windows in character-mode DOS programs came AFTER > the Mac was out. I don't recall that WordStar, for example, > had menus or menu bars in the early days. You would be wrong on both counts (Lotus and WordStar). Lotus 1-2-3 DOES predate both the Mac and the Lisa, though not by very much. WordStar had a menu all the way back to version 1. Neither programs, however, had menus in the sense we think of in most GUIs, that dropped down from some portion of the screen or under a mouse pointer when a button is pressed. Essentially, the menus used in most text based programs were just sections of the screen set aside to list the currently available commands. In the case of WordStar, the upper half of the screen was used to list the current commands. The idea of on-screen menus certianly predates both the Mac and the Lisa, and probably predates the Xerox Star as well. - Jeff Dutky ###### From: jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 15:56:36 GMT Organization: Videotron Communications Ltd. Lines: 12 Message-ID: <35c9d1e8.2673393@news.prosurfr.com> References: <35c8b98c.4652438@news.prosurfr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c9169-004.prosurfr.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.videotron.ab.ca!not-for-mail rob@hafernik.com (Rob Hafernik) wrote, in part: >I don't recall that WordStar, for >example, had menus or menu bars in the early days. No, WordStar didn't have a menu bar in its early days. It did have a big chart of all the control characters you could use at the top of the screen that changed when you pressed ^O or ^K, and that chart was called a menu. John Savard http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html ###### From: pk2222@aol.com (Pk2222) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Lines: 4 Message-ID: <1998080616063600.MAA25023@ladder03.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder03.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 6 Aug 1998 16:06:36 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail I don't know about WordStar, but Samna III had menus that could be pulled down using function keys.....(I remember this at about 1980-81) pk ###### From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Date: 6 Aug 98 16:39:16 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@globalcenter.net X-Posted-By: @206.165.43.105 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/alt.folklore.computers, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail Rob Hafernik said: >> >True, but menu bars did exist in plenty of DOS programs, such as Lotus >> >1-2-3; naturally, if the Mac was aimed at the mainstream (the Xerox >> >Star being experimental) it would have copied a few missing pieces >> >from there. > >Was Lotus 1-2-3 out before the Mac was designed? I don't THINK so, but I >could be wrong. Also, the Lisa came first and IT had menus. I seem to >recall that the trend toward menus and windows in character-mode DOS >programs came AFTER the Mac was out. I don't recall that WordStar, for >example, had menus or menu bars in the early days. The Mac project started almost at the same time as the Lisa project, but the Mac had a bitmapped interface from the start, whereas the Lisa's was added on later (note that the Mac project started BEFORE Jobs went to XEROX PARC -at the request of the head of the Mac project, no less, who wanted to prevent Jobs from cancelling the Mac project AGAIN, by showing Jobs what a working human interface oriented computer looked like). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Date: 6 Aug 98 16:41:11 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@globalcenter.net X-Posted-By: @206.165.43.105 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/alt.folklore.computers, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!Supernews60!supernews.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail Maury Markowitz said: >In <35C9F6E0.4A5@bellatlantic.net> "Jeffrey S. Dutky" wrote: >> You would be wrong on both counts (Lotus and WordStar). Lotus >> 1-2-3 DOES predate both the Mac and the Lisa, though not by >> very much. > > Fully operational menus, mouse driven, were available in SmallTalk >systems >from Xerox dating back into the mid-70's, long before 1-2-3 or WordStar. Hmmmm... What did those menus look like? The SmallTalk 80 interface likely wasn't similar to the original SmallTalk interface. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: alex*@*rockvax.rockefeller.edu (Alexandre Pechtchanski) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Organization: Rockefeller University Hospital (GCRC), New York Message-ID: <35caf348.6450901@Rockyd> References: <1998080616063600.MAA25023@ladder03.news.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 18:16:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.85.24.56 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 14:16:56 EDT Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!129.85.1.24!rockyd.rockefeller.edu!not-for-mail On 6 Aug 1998 16:06:36 GMT, pk2222@aol.com (Pk2222) wrote: >I don't know about WordStar, but Samna III had menus that could be pulled down >using function keys.....(I remember this at about 1980-81) > >pk IIRC, Supercalc had essentially the same menu as Lotus 1-2-3 in the end of 70's (I seem to recall seeing one around 1978). [ When replying, remove *'s from address ] Alexandre Pechtchanski, Systems Manager, RUH, NY ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.mac.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface X-Nntp-Posting-Host: mothra.oaai.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: dutky@bellatlantic.net Organization: none X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.9.5 Beta(i) References: <35c8b98c.4652438@news.prosurfr.com> <35C9F6E0.4A5@bellatlantic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 20:05:41 GMT Lines: 10 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!gulfsouth.verio.net!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!gts!babel!news In <35C9F6E0.4A5@bellatlantic.net> "Jeffrey S. Dutky" wrote: > You would be wrong on both counts (Lotus and WordStar). Lotus > 1-2-3 DOES predate both the Mac and the Lisa, though not by > very much. Fully operational menus, mouse driven, were available in SmallTalk systems from Xerox dating back into the mid-70's, long before 1-2-3 or WordStar. Maury ###### Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 10:12:52 -0700 From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Message-ID: References: <35c8b98c.4652438@news.prosurfr.com> <35C9F6E0.4A5@bellatlantic.net> Organization: Close to None X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.89.219.20 X-Trace: 7 Aug 1998 10:16:44 -0800, 204.89.219.20 Lines: 7 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.he.net!jolt.pagesat.net!stevehix In article <35C9F6E0.4A5@bellatlantic.net>, dutky@bellatlantic.net wrote: > The idea of on-screen menus certianly predates both the Mac > and the Lisa, and probably predates the Xerox Star as well. It was common on CP/M machines before the Apple][, and not original to them. Probably showed up on early Unix versions. ###### From: yuska@bgs.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 16:38:09 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 25 Message-ID: <6qfahi$88l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <35c8b98c.4652438@news.prosurfr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.165.159.3 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Aug 07 16:38:09 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.04 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4m) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail In article , rob@hafernik.com (Rob Hafernik) wrote: > > >True, but menu bars did exist in plenty of DOS programs, such as Lotus > > >1-2-3; naturally, if the Mac was aimed at the mainstream (the Xerox > > >Star being experimental) it would have copied a few missing pieces > > >from there. > > Was Lotus 1-2-3 out before the Mac was designed? I don't THINK so, but I > could be wrong. Also, the Lisa came first and IT had menus. I seem to > recall that the trend toward menus and windows in character-mode DOS > programs came AFTER the Mac was out. I don't recall that WordStar, for > example, had menus or menu bars in the early days. > There were cascading (if not precisely pull-down) menus in high-end CAD systems long before 1980. (I seem to recall a menu on the spacewar game on the TX-0 I once got to play with in 1968, but I could be wrong). The pointing devices, however were things like light pens and graphics tablets. The development of the (relatively) cheap and available mice as pointing devices made the GUI's practical. Joe Yuska -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum ###### From: Dan Strychalski Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Date: 7 Aug 1998 23:00:25 GMT Organization: Cameo Communications, Inc. Lines: 139 Message-ID: <6qg0u9$8j3$1@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.72.104.4 Originator: dski@ Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!serv.hinet.net!ctu-gate!news.nctu.edu.tw!spring.edu.tw!feeder.seed.net.tw!news.seed.net.tw!!dski Someone mentioned early WordStar menus. Screen captures follow. Wadja expect? Conceptually, I find the WordStar menu system little different from drop-downs. In the one case, you press a Ctrl-key combination, and the screen tells you what you can do next; in the other, you click a word, or press a system-specific key and a letter key, and the screen tells you what you can do next. Sure, there are differences: in the one case, your hands never leave touch-typing position (you DO have Ctrl in the home row, next to the A key, don't you? And you DO recognize that using a computer involves a certain amount of typing, don't you? And this IS a word processor, isn't it? And you ARE aware that the next computer you use might not have Alt or Command, but it WILL have Ctrl, right?), plus you get significantly more information from the screen; in the other case, you have to reach for a pointing device or out-of-the way, system-specific key, and the screen may or may not provide you with the information you need ("How do I get out of this?!?").... That's NOT to say drop-downs are COMPLETELY without merit. As long as you can activate them AND zip from one to another AND invoke the command you want with your hands still in touch-typing position, using only straight ASCII main-block keystrokes, they're fairly cool. Anyone know of a mass-market commercial software package released in the past decade and a half that uses drop-downs and lets you work that way? Speaking of ASCII main-block keystrokes, note `DEL chr lf' in the main menu below. `Delete character left' is Ctrl-H in all other versions of WordStar, and those of us who knew how to change the keystroke dispatch table lost no time making it Ctrl-H in this version. And by the way, the (1979? 1980?) WordStar 2.x menus were similar to these.... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 8086/8088 WordStar Release 3.30 Copyright (c) 1983 MicroPro International Corporation . . . - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - not editing < < < O P E N I N G M E N U > > > ---Preliminary Commands--- | --File Commands-- | -System Commands- L Change logged disk drive | | R Run a program F File directory now ON | P PRINT a file | X EXIT to system H Set help level | | ---Commands to open a file--- | E RENAME a file | -WordStar Options- D Open a document file | O COPY a file | M Run MailMerge N Open a non-document file | Y DELETE a file | S Run SpellStar directory of disk B: AUTOEXEC.BAT COMP.EXE DUMP.EXE COMMAND.COM GREP.COM WHERE.COM WS3A.COM WSMSGS.OVR WSOVLY1.OVR - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - B:SCRATCH PAGE 1 LINE 1 COL 01 INSERT ON < < < M A I N M E N U > > > --Cursor Movement-- | -Delete- | -Miscellaneous- | -Other Menus- ^S char left ^D char right |^G char | ^I Tab ^B Reform | (from Main only) ^A word left ^F word right |DEL chr lf| ^V INSERT ON/OFF |^J Help ^K Block ^E line up ^X line down |^T word rt|^L Find/Replce again|^Q Quick ^P Print --Scrolling-- |^Y line |RETURN End paragraph|^O Onscreen ^Z line down ^W line up | | ^N Insert a RETURN | ^C screen up ^R screen down| | ^U Stop a command | L----!----!----!----!----!----!----!----!----!----!----!-------------------R Your text appears here. Let's look at the other menus (above, right).... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ^J B:SCRATCH PAGE 1 LINE 1 COL 01 INSERT ON < < < H E L P M E N U > > > | | --Other Menus-- H Display & set the help level | S Status line | (from Main only) B Paragraph reform (CONTROL-B) | R Ruler line | ^J Help ^K Block F Flags in right-most column | M Margins & Tabs | ^Q Quick ^P Print D Dot commands, print controls | P Place markers | ^O Onscreen I Index of commands | V Moving text | Space Bar returns | | you to Main Menu. L----!----!----!----!----!----!----!----!----!----!----!-------------------R Your text appears here. Let's look at the other menus (above, right).... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ^K B:SCRATCH PAGE 1 LINE 1 COL 01 INSERT ON < < < B L O C K M E N U > > > -Saving Files- | -Block Operations- | -File Operations- | -Other Menus- S Save & resume | B Begin K End | R Read P Print | (from Main only) D Save--done | H Hide / Display | O Copy E Rename | ^J Help ^K Block X Save & exit | C Copy Y Delete| J Delete | ^Q Quick ^P Print Q Abandon file | V Move W Write | -Disk Operations- | ^O Onscreen -Place Markers- | N Column now OFF |L Change logged disk| Space Bar returns 0-9 set/hide 0-9| |F Directory now OFF | you to Main Menu. L----!----!----!----!----!----!----!----!----!----!----!-------------------R Your text appears here. Let's look at the other menus (above, right).... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ^Q B:SCRATCH PAGE 1 LINE 1 COL 01 INSERT ON < < < Q U I C K M E N U > > > ---Cursor Movement--- | -Delete- | --Miscellaneous-- | --Other Menus-- S left side D right side |Y line rt|F Find text in file | (from Main only) E top scrn X bottom scrn |DEL lin lf|A Find & Replace |^J Help ^K Block R top file C end file |L Find Misspelling |^Q Quick ^P Print B top block K end block |Q Repeat command or |^O Onscreen 0-9 marker Z down W up | key until space |Space Bar returns P previous V last Find or Block | bar or other key |you to Main Menu. L----!----!----!----!----!----!----!----!----!----!----!-------------------R Your text appears here. Let's look at the other menus (above, right).... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ^P B:SCRATCH PAGE 1 LINE 1 COL 01 INSERT ON < < < P R I N T M E N U > > > ------ Special Effects ------- | -Printing Changes- | -Other Menus- (begin and end) | (one time each) | A Alternate pitch | (from Main only) B Bold D Double | H Overprint char | N Standard pitch |^J Help ^K Block S Underscore | O Non-break space | C Printing pause |^Q Quick ^P Print X Strikeout | F Phantom space | Y Other ribbon color|^O Onscreen V Subscript | G Phantom rubout | --User Patches-- |Space Bar returns T Superscript | RET Overprint line | Q(1) W(2) E(3) R(4) |you to Main Menu. L----!----!----!----!----!----!----!----!----!----!----!-------------------R Your text appears here. Let's look at the other menus (above, right).... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ^O B:SCRATCH PAGE 1 LINE 1 COL 01 INSERT ON < < < O N S C R E E N M E N U > > > -Margins & Tabs- | -Line Functions- | --More Toggles-- | -Other Menus- L Set left margin |C Center text |J Justify now OFF | (from Main only) R Set right margin|S Set line spacing |V Vari-Tabs now ON |^J Help ^K Block X Release margins | |H Hyph-help now OFF |^Q Quick ^P Print I Set N Clear tab| ---Toggles--- |E Soft hyph now OFF |^O Onscreen G Paragraph tab |W Wrd wrap now ON |D Prnt disp now ON |Space Bar returns F Ruler from line |T Rlr line now ON |P Pge break now ON |you to Main Menu. L----!----!----!----!----!----!----!----!----!----!----!-------------------R Your text appears here. Let's look at the other menus (above, right).... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dan Strychalski dski at cameonet, cameo, com, tw (no _x_) ----- Apologies for the anti-spam devices and non-threading newsreader. ----- ###### From: jsavard@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca () Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: 9 Aug 1998 04:23:35 GMT Organization: Edmonton FreeNet, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Lines: 12 Message-ID: <6qj887$k5i$2@news.sas.ab.ca> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: fnt2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2.6] Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-stkh.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!uninett.no!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newshub.northeast.verio.net!news.he.net!scanner.worldgate.com!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.sas.ab.ca!jsavard Lawson English (english@primenet.com) wrote: : (note that the Mac project started BEFORE Jobs went to XEROX : PARC -at the request of the head of the Mac project, no less, who wanted to : prevent Jobs from cancelling the Mac project AGAIN, by showing Jobs what a : working human interface oriented computer looked like). Note, of course, that this doesn't imply that Apple independently reinvented the GUI, since the head of the Mac project knew where to send Steve Jobs...and the project at Xerox had been made public; for example, there had been an early article in Byte about it. John Savard ###### Message-ID: <35CF45F9.209DEC56@bigfoot.com> From: "Anthony D. Saxton" Reply-To: lna@bigfoot.com Organization: LnA Concepts X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface References: <35c8b98c.4652438@news.prosurfr.com> <35C9F6E0.4A5@bellatlantic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 19:11:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.211.54.112 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:11:55 MDT Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!europa.clark.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail > > You would be wrong on both counts (Lotus and WordStar). Lotus > 1-2-3 DOES predate both the Mac and the Lisa, though not by > very much. WordStar had a menu all the way back to version 1. > Neither programs, however, had menus in the sense we think > of in most GUIs, that dropped down from some portion of the > screen or under a mouse pointer when a button is pressed. And where did Lotus 1-2-3 get the idea for menus? From the program it stole ITS entire concept from! That program would be the Apple II version of VisiCalc! Menus weren't even unique when Apple II used them. Charts with lists of commands existed on ALL mainframes and minis before micros even got started. The concept of the window based user interface on an OS is what the Mac introduced(And Gates stole). The concept of the "Pull-down" menus were also introduced by Apple (And also stolen by Gates.) Yes, the concept of a mouse controlling a cursor was not originally Apple's idea. Apple's implementation of it was though. Gates licensed the concept and algorithms from Apple to use in his "Application" program called "Windows 1.0." Yes, MS's original code for the Windows interface was written by Apple! ###### From: melbert@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 00:23:54 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 39 Message-ID: <6qo2uq$6bb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <35c8b98c.4652438@news.prosurfr.com> <35C9F6E0.4A5@bellatlantic.net> <35CF45F9.209DEC56@bigfoot.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.238.143.181 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Aug 11 00:23:54 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.05 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.34 i586) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!204.238.120.130!news-feeds.jump.net!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail In article <35CF45F9.209DEC56@bigfoot.com>, lna@bigfoot.com wrote: > > > > You would be wrong on both counts (Lotus and WordStar). Lotus > > 1-2-3 DOES predate both the Mac and the Lisa, though not by > > very much. WordStar had a menu all the way back to version 1. > > Neither programs, however, had menus in the sense we think > > of in most GUIs, that dropped down from some portion of the > > screen or under a mouse pointer when a button is pressed. > > And where did Lotus 1-2-3 get the idea for menus? From the program it stole > ITS entire concept from! That program would be the Apple II version of > VisiCalc! Menus weren't even unique when Apple II used them. Charts with lists > of commands existed on ALL mainframes and minis before micros even got > started. The concept of the window based user interface on an OS is what the > Mac introduced(And Gates stole). The concept of the "Pull-down" menus were > also introduced by Apple (And also stolen by Gates.) Yes, the concept of a > mouse controlling a cursor was not originally Apple's idea. Apple's > implementation of it was though. Gates licensed the concept and algorithms > from Apple to use in his "Application" program called "Windows 1.0." Yes, MS's > original code for the Windows interface was written by Apple! It's good that you mention VisiCalc on the Apple II. Some computer historians have said that the whole and only reason that Apple Computer became the big successful company that it is was because VisiCalc (the first spreadsheet) ran on it first. For about the first year that VisiCalc existed the only platform it ran on was the Apple II. Businessmen would walk into "computer stores" (a new concept at the time- cash and carry computers) and ask the salesman for a "VisiCalc." Further, some computer historians maintain that VisiCalc was really the ONLY thing about the Apple II that made it stand out from the rest of the bunch, and hence the only reason so many Apples were sold. As we all know now, the "killer app" sells the rest of the machine. Any other technical merits of the Apple II were essentially irrelevant. > -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum ###### From: "Samael" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:12:09 +0100 Lines: 23 Message-ID: <6qoulk$irq$1@heliodor.xara.net> References: <35c8b98c.4652438@news.prosurfr.com> <35C9F6E0.4A5@bellatlantic.net> <35CF45F9.209DEC56@bigfoot.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.147.8.123 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.itg.net.uk!usenet Anthony D. Saxton wrote in message <35CF45F9.209DEC56@bigfoot.com>... >And where did Lotus 1-2-3 get the idea for menus? From the program it stole >ITS entire concept from! That program would be the Apple II version of >VisiCalc! Menus weren't even unique when Apple II used them. Charts with lists >of commands existed on ALL mainframes and minis before micros even got >started. The concept of the window based user interface on an OS is what the >Mac introduced(And Gates stole). The concept of the "Pull-down" menus were >also introduced by Apple (And also stolen by Gates.) Yes, the concept of a >mouse controlling a cursor was not originally Apple's idea. Apple's >implementation of it was though. Gates licensed the concept and algorithms >from Apple to use in his "Application" program called "Windows 1.0." Yes, MS's >original code for the Windows interface was written by Apple! So where does Xerox Parc come into all of this then? Samael ###### From: rob@hafernik.com (Rob Hafernik) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:36:56 -0600 Organization: SAC Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <35c8b98c.4652438@news.prosurfr.com> <35C9F6E0.4A5@bellatlantic.net> <35CF45F9.209DEC56@bigfoot.com> <6qoulk$irq$1@heliodor.xara.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: as3-dialup-15.io.com X-Trace: hiram.io.com 902846206 4248 206.224.81.111 (11 Aug 1998 14:36:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@io.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Aug 1998 14:36:46 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2.2 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!204.238.120.130!news-feeds.jump.net!solomon.io.com!hiram.io.com!as3-dialup-15.io.com!user I could be wrong on this, but I seem to recall that Apple invented the "menu bar", not the idea of popup menus driven by a mouse. Their user testing showed that it was easy to "hit" things at the top of the screen with the mouse (because the cursor bumped up against the top), so they put the menus there. If I recall correctly, the Xerox menus were context-sensitive and came up wherever you clicked the mouse button. Generally speaking, Apple was extremely conservative in the design of the Mac GUI. The whole idea of graphical user interfaces was new and they wanted something super-simple to introduce the concept. Users just weren't very sophisticated in those days and they were laying a lot of new stuff on them at once. Using a mouse took new coordination (we can hardly remember now that it took a couple of days of using it to get used to the mouse), the screen had black characters on white (different from most other consumer products of the time, but nearly universal today) and the file system was manipulated by dragging things around. All of these were new to most users, so Apple tried to keep them as simple as possible. They may have underestimated the ability of users to adapt to new environments, but in their place I think I would have had the same conservative viewpoint. ###### From: stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 10:27:59 -0600 Organization: Stone Entertainment Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <35c8b98c.4652438@news.prosurfr.com> <35C9F6E0.4A5@bellatlantic.net> <35CF45F9.209DEC56@bigfoot.com> <6qoulk$irq$1@heliodor.xara.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: rc-pm3-1-10.enetis.net X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.31.204.2!news.enetis.net!stone In article <6qoulk$irq$1@heliodor.xara.net>, "Samael" wrote: > Anthony D. Saxton wrote in message <35CF45F9.209DEC56@bigfoot.com>... > >And where did Lotus 1-2-3 get the idea for menus? From the program it stole > >ITS entire concept from! That program would be the Apple II version of > >VisiCalc! Menus weren't even unique when Apple II used them. Charts with > lists > >of commands existed on ALL mainframes and minis before micros even got > >started. The concept of the window based user interface on an OS is what > the > >Mac introduced(And Gates stole). The concept of the "Pull-down" menus were > >also introduced by Apple (And also stolen by Gates.) Yes, the concept of a > >mouse controlling a cursor was not originally Apple's idea. Apple's > >implementation of it was though. Gates licensed the concept and algorithms > >from Apple to use in his "Application" program called "Windows 1.0." Yes, > MS's > >original code for the Windows interface was written by Apple! > > So where does Xerox Parc come into all of this then? > Samael Wouldn't it be ironic if Xerox took elements from certain AppleII apps and expanded on them in Parc, then Apple took elements from Parc and expanded on them in System 1.0? Gah... I don't even want to think about it! :/ -- -Kevin Stone Stone Entertainment www.StoneEntertainment.com (no email please) ###### From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Date: 11 Aug 98 10:42:35 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@globalcenter.net X-Posted-By: @206.165.43.112 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/alt.folklore.computers, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail Kevin Stone said: >Wouldn't it be ironic if Xerox took elements from certain AppleII apps and >expanded on them in Parc, then Apple took elements from Parc and expanded >on them in System 1.0? > >Gah... I don't even want to think about it! :/ In fact, Raskin (the inventor of the Macintosh) used to visit PARC when it first opened and swap ideas with the original engineers there (this was years before he got Jobs to go there). Soooo... Even Raskin can't be sure how much of his own thinking was influenced by PARC (of course, the same goes the other way). Here's a challenge: what is the earliest documented case of work on a WYSIWYG system? I can trace it back to Raskin's 1967 Master's thesis. Was work going on earlier than that on the ability to print exactly what you see on the screen? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: spalding@iol.ie (Nick Spalding) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 11:06:06 +0100 Organization: Ireland On-Line Lines: 19 Message-ID: <35dc16f4.51590668@news.iol.ie> References: <35c8b98c.4652438@news.prosurfr.com> <35C9F6E0.4A5@bellatlantic.net> <35CF45F9.209DEC56@bigfoot.com> <6qo2uq$6bb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Reply-To: spalding@iol.ie NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-841.dublin.iol.ie Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!server5.netnews.ja.net!HEAnet!iol!iol.ie!not-for-mail melbert@my-dejanews.com wrote: > It's good that you mention VisiCalc on the Apple II. Some computer > historians have said that the whole and only reason that Apple Computer > became the big successful company that it is was because VisiCalc (the first > spreadsheet) ran on it first. For about the first year that VisiCalc existed > the only platform it ran on was the Apple II. Businessmen would walk into > "computer stores" (a new concept at the time- cash and carry computers) and > ask the salesman for a "VisiCalc." Further, some computer historians > maintain that VisiCalc was really the ONLY thing about the Apple II that made > it stand out from the rest of the bunch, and hence the only reason so many > Apples were sold. As we all know now, the "killer app" sells the rest of the > machine. Any other technical merits of the Apple II were essentially > irrelevant. In equal measure the Apple II sold Visicalc, indeed the whole spreadsheet idea. A nice example of symbiosis. -- Nick Spalding ###### From: stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:36:29 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 34 Message-ID: <6qphcu$2vb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <35c8b98c.4652438@news.prosurfr.com> <35C9F6E0.4A5@bellatlantic.net> <35CF45F9.209DEC56@bigfoot.com> <6qo2uq$6bb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35dc16f4.51590668@news.iol.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.238.137.188 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Aug 11 13:36:29 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.05 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.34 i586) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail In article <35dc16f4.51590668@news.iol.ie>, spalding@iol.ie wrote: > melbert@my-dejanews.com wrote: > > > It's good that you mention VisiCalc on the Apple II. Some computer > > historians have said that the whole and only reason that Apple Computer > > became the big successful company that it is was because VisiCalc (the first > > spreadsheet) ran on it first. For about the first year that VisiCalc existed > > the only platform it ran on was the Apple II. Businessmen would walk into > > "computer stores" (a new concept at the time- cash and carry computers) and > > ask the salesman for a "VisiCalc." Further, some computer historians > > maintain that VisiCalc was really the ONLY thing about the Apple II that made > > it stand out from the rest of the bunch, and hence the only reason so many > > Apples were sold. As we all know now, the "killer app" sells the rest of the > > machine. Any other technical merits of the Apple II were essentially > > irrelevant. > > In equal measure the Apple II sold Visicalc, indeed the whole > spreadsheet idea. A nice example of symbiosis. > -- > Nick Spalding > I would disagree, in that businessmen didn't walk into the computer store and say "I want an Apple II. Oh, by the way, put VisiCalc on the invoice too." The Apple II was just the computer of the time that happened to run it. Granted if the Apple II had been really awful and unreliable it could have limited use of spreadsheets at the time. -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum ###### From: spalding@iol.ie (Nick Spalding) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 18:32:35 +0100 Organization: Ireland On-Line Lines: 12 Message-ID: <35d57fa1.2026348@news.iol.ie> References: <35c8b98c.4652438@news.prosurfr.com> <35C9F6E0.4A5@bellatlantic.net> <35CF45F9.209DEC56@bigfoot.com> <6qo2uq$6bb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35dc16f4.51590668@news.iol.ie> <6qphcu$2vb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Reply-To: spalding@iol.ie NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-664.dublin.iol.ie Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!iol!iol.ie!not-for-mail stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us wrote: > I would disagree, in that businessmen didn't walk into the computer store and > say "I want an Apple II. Oh, by the way, put VisiCalc on the invoice too." > The Apple II was just the computer of the time that happened to run it. > Granted if the Apple II had been really awful and unreliable it could have > limited use of spreadsheets at the time. I meant that the availability of the Apple as a vehicle for Visicalc spread the spreadsheet gospel far and wide very quickly. -- Nick Spalding ###### From: Dan Strychalski Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Date: 12 Aug 1998 00:10:55 GMT Organization: Cameo Communications, Inc. Lines: 32 Message-ID: <6qqmif$kgj$1@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.72.104.4 Originator: dski@ Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!serv.hinet.net!ctu-gate!news.nctu.edu.tw!spring.edu.tw!feeder.seed.net.tw!news.seed.net.tw!!dski In Lawson English Here's a challenge: > > what is the earliest documented case of work on a WYSIWYG system? I can > trace it back to Raskin's 1967 Master's thesis. Was work going on earlier > than that on the ability to print exactly what you see on the screen? Maybe someone knows more about the systems described in the following text, taken from : The First Automated Typesetting In the 1960s when the term "computer" described a large air-conditioned room full of big machines, probably from IBM, RCA, Burroughs, Univac, or DEC (where have all the flowers gone?), typesetting began to be automated. RCA offered a CRT based machine, called a "VideoComp," made in Germany by Hell (now merged with Linotype), which inspired IBM to fund the development of the IBM 2680, a CRT-based machine, made for IBM by a Long Island company called Alphanumeric Inc. (Alphanumeric had pioneered a digital phototypsetter operated by a small DEC computer/controller.) Both the RCA and IBM typesetters were remarkable machines, but the computers necessary to run them leased for thousands of dollars per month, which kept their market relatively small. These machines disappeared after small "cheap" computers began to appear in the 1970s. The 2680 was the basis for the first Autologic, which contained a minicomputer, replacing the big IBM equipment, but it didn't appear until much later. . . . Dan Strychalski dski at cameonet, cameo, com, tw (no _x_) ###### From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Date: 12 Aug 98 12:26:08 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <6qsovp$rfe$1@unlnews.unl.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@globalcenter.net X-Posted-By: @206.165.43.20 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/alt.folklore.computers, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail Greg Berigan said: >In alt.folklore.computers, english@primenet.com (Lawson English) wrote: > >> what is the earliest documented case of work on a WYSIWYG system? I >can >> trace it back to Raskin's 1967 Master's thesis. Was work going on earlier >> than that on the ability to print exactly what you see on the screen? > >What was the first implementation of a PrntScrn button? > >And then there are the old systems where the screen WAS the printer. >WYSIWYG by definition. Sure, but not useable for professional publishing. WYSIWYG generally (in my mind) refers to the ability to design a layout on-screen and be assured that the typesetting-quality printout looks approximately like what is shown on the screen. Simply going by the definitions of the words in the acronymn doesn't necessarily give you its meaning, otherwise, PrintScreen WOULD be considered WYSIWYG and I don't think that most people look at it that way, including whoever coined it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: Greg Berigan Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Date: 12 Aug 1998 19:04:25 GMT Organization: http://cse.unl.edu/~gberigan/ Lines: 16 Message-ID: <6qsovp$rfe$1@unlnews.unl.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: cse.unl.edu User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980618 (UNIX) (IRIX64/6.2 (IP25)) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.enteract.com!newsfeed.inetnebr.com!unlnews.unl.edu!cse.unl.edu!gberigan In alt.folklore.computers, english@primenet.com (Lawson English) wrote: > what is the earliest documented case of work on a WYSIWYG system? I can > trace it back to Raskin's 1967 Master's thesis. Was work going on earlier > than that on the ability to print exactly what you see on the screen? What was the first implementation of a PrntScrn button? And then there are the old systems where the screen WAS the printer. WYSIWYG by definition. -- ,=<#)-=# (The War of the Worlds) ,_--//--_, _-~_-(####)-_~-_ Please pardon any typos. Bandwidth is often at a premium, (#>_--'~--~`--_<#) with connection too sluggish to support post-editing. ###### From: Crash Johnson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 21:06:09 -0400 Organization: Snow Crash Crew Lines: 16 Message-ID: <35D23C01.47F91E96@ezonline.nospam.com> References: <35c8b98c.4652438@news.prosurfr.com> <35C9F6E0.4A5@bellatlantic.net> <35CF45F9.209DEC56@bigfoot.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp160.ezonline.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!207.44.3.66!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!not-for-mail I am a newbie here, so I apoligize for tuning inlate, but did anyone mention PARC and Xerox? -- \||/ Original text above is my opinion Crash Johnson <8}}}}=< & not necessarily reality... \\ Deal with it. [N4] remove 'spam' for email Anthony D. Saxton wrote: > > You would be wrong on both counts (Lotus and WordStar). Lotus > > 1-2-3 DOES predate both the Mac and the Lisa, though not by > > very much. > Mac introduced(And Gates stole). The concept of the "Pull-down" menus were > also introduced by Apple (And also stolen by Gates.) Yes, the concept of a > mouse controlling a cursor was not originally Apple's idea. > original code for the Windows interface was written by Apple! AYS? ###### From: stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 23:55:22 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 63 Message-ID: <6qta1a$2m8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <6qsovp$rfe$1@unlnews.unl.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.238.142.156 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Aug 12 23:55:22 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.05 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.34 i586) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!204.238.120.130!news-feeds.jump.net!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail In article , "Lawson English" wrote: > Greg Berigan said: > > >In alt.folklore.computers, english@primenet.com (Lawson English) wrote: > > > >> what is the earliest documented case of work on a WYSIWYG system? I > >can > >> trace it back to Raskin's 1967 Master's thesis. Was work going on > earlier > >> than that on the ability to print exactly what you see on the screen? > > > >What was the first implementation of a PrntScrn button? > > > >And then there are the old systems where the screen WAS the printer. > >WYSIWYG by definition. > > Sure, but not useable for professional publishing. WYSIWYG generally (in > my mind) refers to the ability to design a layout on-screen and be assured > that the typesetting-quality printout looks approximately like what is > shown on the screen. Be careful what you call "typesetting-quality." If you mean by it what was achived with stand-alone machines in the early years of the Mac and Windows machines (and even yet today in most circumstances) then we're still waiting for a WYSIWYG environment. Granted, Postscript was what made it possible on this grade of machine to generate 'typesetting-quality" work, but usually only by bringing the postscript image to a service bureau. Typesetting quality generally means at least 1800 dots per inch, and far better kerning and general layout than almost any "personal computer" program is capable of. TeX is capable of it, and Quark and a number of other high quality programs. No Windows or Mac application less than that is. Nothing done on a LaserWriter or a Laserjet or similar grade of printer is "typesetting-quality." Check the language in the printing dialogues of most programs. You are usually given the choice of "Proof" or "Draft" quality. > > Simply going by the definitions of the words in the acronymn doesn't > necessarily give you its meaning, otherwise, PrintScreen WOULD be > considered WYSIWYG and I don't think that most people look at it that way, > including whoever coined it. > The people who work with markup languages like TeX and LaTeX like to refer to it, as What-You-See-Is-All-You-Get, because the real end result of most of most 'graphical' text layout programs is to allow the user (who usually has NO training in typesetting and layout) to push the characters around the screen like a fussy child at the dinner table. There is seldom enough capability in the program to achieve the quality that a professional typesetter can. An arguement made by such people is that writing is a separate task from typesetting. Text editors are for writing. Markup languages are for specifying how the text should be formatted. Typesetting programs are for rendering that specification to a format that typsetting equipment can interpret. Since there are graphical previewing programs to check the output of typesetting programs before committing the result to film, printer plates, or paper, I suppose it could be said that at least that stage of the process could be termed WYSIWYG. Scott Stevens -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum ###### From: Stephen Lee - Post replies please Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Date: 13 Aug 1998 07:22:08 GMT Organization: Nekomi Institute of Technology Lines: 8 Message-ID: <6qu470$dud$1@trotsky.cig.mot.com> References: <6qqmif$kgj$1@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: thunder.cig.nml.mot.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test66 (4 June 1998) Originator: stephen@cig.nml.mot.com (Stephen Lee) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!news-xfer.siscom.net!streamer1.cleveland.iagnet.net!NewsNG.Chicago.Qual.Net!newsgate.mot.com!newshost.mot.com!news-in.cig.mot.com!not-for-mail In article <6qqmif$kgj$1@news.seed.net.tw>, Dan Strychalski wrote: > > typesetting began to be automated. RCA offered a CRT based machine, > called a "VideoComp," made in Germany by Hell This is such a "Hot" name for a company, don't ya think? ###### From: "S. L. Wellborn" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:28:04 -0700 Organization: Oregon Public Networking Lines: 10 Message-ID: <6qv3ga$h8i$1@haus.efn.org> References: <6qsovp$rfe$1@unlnews.unl.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak-ip85.efn.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.102.31.251!news.cmc.net!news.efn.org!not-for-mail Greg Berigan wrote in message <6qsovp$rfe$1@unlnews.unl.edu>... >In alt.folklore.computers, english@primenet.com (Lawson English) wrote: >And then there are the old systems where the screen WAS the printer. >WYSIWYG by definition. > No, what your thinking of is WYSIAYG (What You See Is All You Get). :) ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Date: 13 Aug 1998 21:36:55 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <6qqmif$kgj$1@news.seed.net.tw> <6qu470$dud$1@trotsky.cig.mot.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Stephen Lee - Post replies please writes: > > In article <6qqmif$kgj$1@news.seed.net.tw>, > Dan Strychalski wrote: > > > > typesetting began to be automated. RCA offered a CRT based machine, > > called a "VideoComp," made in Germany by Hell > > This is such a "Hot" name for a company, don't ya think? Particularly when you look at the words meaning in German: bright. That is as in bright light, or bright (hell-) fire :-). Neil "demonic grin" Franklin -- home: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ work: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ *** It's true ! I read it on Usenet and the Web ! *** ###### From: stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 23:29:28 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 25 Message-ID: <6qvsso$8n3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <6qsovp$rfe$1@unlnews.unl.edu> <6qv3ga$h8i$1@haus.efn.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.238.137.143 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Aug 13 23:29:28 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.05 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.34 i586) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail In article <6qv3ga$h8i$1@haus.efn.org>, "S. L. Wellborn" wrote: > > Greg Berigan wrote in message <6qsovp$rfe$1@unlnews.unl.edu>... > >In alt.folklore.computers, english@primenet.com (Lawson English) wrote: > > >And then there are the old systems where the screen WAS the printer. > >WYSIWYG by definition. > > > > No, what your thinking of is WYSIAYG (What You See Is All You Get). :) > They are really the same thing (WYSIWYG=WYSIAYG). Which applies in a wider context to the GUI itself. If there isn't a button for it, you can't do it. At a command prompt you're not limited to what you can see. You're not restricted to what the person who designed the GUI decided to allow you to do. At a prompt, the menu is in your head. Granted most shells are woefully inadequate, but at least bitmapped barriers haven't been placed between your fingers and the keyboard. Graphical and cognitive (command line) user interfaces each have advantages for different uses and users, which is why any user interface that lacks one or the other is inadequate. -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 18:43:17 +0200 Message-ID: From: peterk@combo.ganesha.com (Dr. Peter Kittel) Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Reply-To: peterk @ combo.ganesha.com References: <6qqmif$kgj$1@news.seed.net.tw> <6qu470$dud$1@trotsky.cig.mot.com> X-Newsreader: rn7.bas Lines: 18 Organization: Private Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!blackbush.xlink.net!ganesha.ganesha.com!shorter!combo.ganesha.com!peterk In article <6qu470$dud$1@trotsky.cig.mot.com> Stephen Lee - Post replies please writes: >In article <6qqmif$kgj$1@news.seed.net.tw>, >Dan Strychalski wrote: >> >> typesetting began to be automated. RCA offered a CRT based machine, >> called a "VideoComp," made in Germany by Hell > >This is such a "Hot" name for a company, don't ya think? Well, read closer: He said Germany, and in German, "hell" means "bright". So it's an appropriate name for everything emitting light. And this company might even be named after its founder, I think there was also a device "Hell-Schreiber" named after its inventor. This name is not very common in Germany, but it exists. -- Best Regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail: Private Site in Frankfurt, Germany \X/ peterk @ combo.ganesha.com ###### -NNTP-Posting-Host: hearsay.demon.co.uk:194.222.24.177 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 903480046 nnrp-09:22503 NO-IDENT hearsay.demon.co.uk:194.222.24.177 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Lines: 27 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!hearsay.demon.co.uk!user In article <35c8b98c.4652438@news.prosurfr.com>, jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) wrote: > don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote, in part: > > >But, there was very little in common between the interfaces. The menu > >bar, for example, didn't exist in the Xerox Star. > > True, but menu bars did exist in plenty of DOS programs, such as Lotus > 1-2-3; naturally, if the Mac was aimed at the mainstream (the Xerox > Star being experimental) it would have copied a few missing pieces > from there. Look at the dates for development of the MacOS. They couldn't have copied /anything/ from any well-known DOS application. 1-2-3 did, of course, exist long before DOS. The concept of a menu bar was around long before DOS. I think I first encountered it in an operating system that ran on a prior Apple platform: BCPL-Pascal, running on an Apple ][ with a Z-80 board. Simon. -- Simon Slavin. 'ware junk-email-trap. | As far as I can tell the entire | program consists of a routine to -------------------------------------+ flash up a window which says "Device quote from Peter Gutmann: | is not responding to SCSI command". ###### From: slavins.at.hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple got the idea for the WIMP interface Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 12:19:57 +0100 Organization: First Sirian Bank Message-ID: References: <6q66e3$hmt$1@garfield.vcn.bc.ca> <35c73143.3498856@news.prosurfr.com> <35c8b98c.4652438@news.prosurfr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: hearsay.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: hearsay.demon.co.uk:194.222.24.177 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 903784822 nnrp-03:5737 NO-IDENT hearsay.demon.co.uk:194.222.24.177 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Lines: 20 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!btnet-peer!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!hearsay.demon.co.uk!user In article , slavins.at.hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) wrote: > [snip] 1-2-3 did, of > course, exist long before DOS. > > The concept of a menu bar was around long before DOS. I think I > first encountered it in an operating system that ran on a prior Apple > platform: BCPL-Pascal, running on an Apple ][ with a Z-80 board. [snip] A couple of people have politely pointed-out to me in email that what I wrote above was rubbish. I hereby resolve not to post while jet-lagged. Sorry, folks. Simon. -- Simon Slavin. 'ware junk-email-trap. | As far as I can tell the entire | program consists of a routine to -------------------------------------+ flash up a window which says "Device quote from Peter Gutmann: | is not responding to SCSI command".