From: linden@positive.eng.sun.com (Peter van der Linden) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: 6 Jul 1998 18:52:54 GMT Organization: Sun Microsystems Computer Corporation Lines: 32 Message-ID: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> NNTP-Posting-Host: positive.eng.sun.com Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.wli.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!venus.sun.com!sunnews1.Eng.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!positive!linden Could someone who has actually used several revisions of CP/M clear up a longtime legend? The legend runs something like this: 1. The first version of MS-DOS was actually QDOS from Seattle Computer Works 2. QDOS ("Quick & Dirty OS") was an unauthorized port of CP/M to x86. CP/M ran on Z-80's. 3a. CP/M used "/" as the separator between components in pathnames 3b. alternative version: CP/M did not have directories, so did not need or use any kind of slash as a pathname piece separator. 4a. QDOS and hence MS-DOS used "\" as the pathname separator to disguise the origin of the ripped-off software (unauthorized port from CP/M). 4b. alternative version: CP/M and hence QDOS and MSDOS used "/" as an option separator to commands, hence it was not available for use as pathname separator. Can anyone say definitively how much of the above is true? I am looking for folks who used these systems, in other words first hand accounts rather than just what people have heard. Thanks, Peter -- Peter van der Linden linden@sun.com Java FAQ: http://www.afu.com "Things that upset a terrier may pass virtually unnoticed by a Great Dane." -- Smiley Blanton Fox in socks, my post is done, sir. Thank you for a lot of fun, sir. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M an From: riplin@kcbbs.gen.nz (Richard Plinston) Date: 7 Jul 98 05:50:54 GMT Message-ID: <3298187.21054.4495@kcbbs.gen.nz> References: Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand Lines: 51 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!202.14.100.1!status.gen.nz!kcbbs!riplin In message <> rivie@rivie.daautah.com writes: > > 3a. CP/M used "/" as the separator between components in pathnames > > 3b. alternative version: CP/M did not have directories, so did not need or > > use any kind of slash as a pathname piece separator. > > 3b is correct. CP/M has only a root directory; filenames are D:FILENAME.EXT > no provision for a "path" unless you count the drive letter as a path. Note that MS-DOS 1.x (and thus QDOS) also did not have directories they were introduced with MS-DOS 2.x. MS-DOS never supported user areas either so all files on a disk with 1.x were all visible at one place. > > 4b. alternative version: CP/M and hence QDOS and MSDOS used "/" as an > > option separator to commands, hence it was not available for use > > as pathname separator. > > CP/M apps often do use "/" as an option separator. For example, you > might: > > A> M80 =BOOGER.MAC/R/L > > to assemble BOOGER.MAC using Microsoft's M80 assembler and obtain both > an object file and a listing file. Exactly, note that this is specific to the Microsoft product and that CP/M did not do much in the way of command line parsing leaving it to the transient program. MS had established the use of '/' in its programs well before it did MS-DOS and so when it needed a path separator it used '\' in spite of having developed a licenced version of Unix which it called Xenix. > Still others had really crazy syntax, such as: > > A> ASM BOOGER.ABC > > which assembles the program BOOGER.ASM (using the ASM assembler shipped > with CP/M) taking the source from drive A, putting the resulting .HEX > file on drive B, and sending the listing to drive C. At least, that's > IIRC. While CP/M did not do much it the way of parsing it did extract the first two parameters as if they were file names and put them in the two FCBs in the PSP. This meant that using the parameters as you describe made them available in a fixed place in the PSP reducing the code required in the progrm. Odd, yes, crazy? not to the programmer trying to get his program running in minimum memory, say, a 24Kb system. ###### From: Marco S Hyman Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: 06 Jul 1998 17:35:03 -0700 Organization: S.N.A.F.U. (www.snafu.org) Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> NNTP-Posting-Host: dumbcat.codewright.com X-Trace: 899771704 29636 marc 206.86.0.12 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.best.com!nntp2.ba.best.com!not-for-mail rivie@rivie.daautah.com (Roger Ivie) writes: > Some versions of ZCPR (a replacement for the standard CP/M command > processor) allowed occasional use of DU:FILENAME.EXT, where U is a "user > number" which could be 0 through 15. This isn't really a path, however, > and most apps didn't support that syntax. Uhh, user codes were a standard part of CP/M, not specific to ZCPR. The standard CCP had a USER command. The problem with user codes was that the normal CCP did not check user 0 for commands files, so you had to have a copy of each command under each user code. That shortcoming is one, IIRC, that was resolved by ZCPR and other `shells'. (I just double checked this by looking at "Inside CP/M" which for some reason is still sitting on the bookshelf within easy reach. // marc ###### From: rivie@rivie.daautah.com (Roger Ivie) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: 6 Jul 1998 19:50:26 GMT Organization: XMission (801 539 0852) Lines: 52 Message-ID: References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> Reply-To: rivie@daa-utah.com NNTP-Posting-Host: logan46.modem.xmission.com X-Trace: news.xmission.com 899754626 6107 166.70.3.238 (6 Jul 1998 19:50:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@xmission.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Jul 1998 19:50:26 GMT X-Newsreader: slrn (0.8.8.2 UNIX) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!198.60.22.3!xmission!rivie In article <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM>, Peter van der Linden wrote: > 3a. CP/M used "/" as the separator between components in pathnames > 3b. alternative version: CP/M did not have directories, so did not need or > use any kind of slash as a pathname piece separator. 3b is correct. CP/M has only a root directory; filenames are D:FILENAME.EXT no provision for a "path" unless you count the drive letter as a path. Some versions of ZCPR (a replacement for the standard CP/M command processor) allowed occasional use of DU:FILENAME.EXT, where U is a "user number" which could be 0 through 15. This isn't really a path, however, and most apps didn't support that syntax. > > 4b. alternative version: CP/M and hence QDOS and MSDOS used "/" as an > option separator to commands, hence it was not available for use > as pathname separator. CP/M apps often do use "/" as an option separator. For example, you might: A> M80 =BOOGER.MAC/R/L to assemble BOOGER.MAC using Microsoft's M80 assembler and obtain both an object file and a listing file. Options are pretty much ad-hoc in CP/M-land. In addition to "/", some apps enclose the options in square brackets; Digital Research's programs tended to do this. Such a command might look like: A> PIP A:=BOOGER.DAT[G0] Still others had really crazy syntax, such as: A> ASM BOOGER.ABC which assembles the program BOOGER.ASM (using the ASM assembler shipped with CP/M) taking the source from drive A, putting the resulting .HEX file on drive B, and sending the listing to drive C. At least, that's IIRC. Manuals for CP/M 2.2 are available in HTML from the Unofficial CP/M Home Page at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm/ by wandering around until you find the CP/M 2.2 area. The manuals will, of course, only cover those applications which shipped with CP/M (which would include PIP and ASM, among others). -- Roger Ivie Design Analysis Associates 75 West 100 South Logan, UT 84321 mailto:rivie@daa-utah.com phoneto:(435)753-2212 ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: 06 Jul 1998 22:04:29 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 64 Message-ID: References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 linden@positive.eng.sun.com (Peter van der Linden) writes: > > Could someone who has actually used several revisions of CP/M > clear up a longtime legend? > > The legend runs something like this: > 1. The first version of MS-DOS was actually QDOS from Seattle Computer Works Yes. But it is Seatla Computer Products (SCP). > 2. QDOS ("Quick & Dirty OS") was an unauthorized port of CP/M to x86. > CP/M ran on Z-80's. Yes. But CP/M ran on 8080, 8085, Z80. CP/M-86 for 8086/88 was late. > 3a. CP/M used "/" as the separator between components in pathnames No. CP/M had an flat file system. No subdirectories. OK. ZCPR implemented pseudodirectories by missusing the User numbers. > 3b. alternative version: CP/M did not have directories, so did not need or > use any kind of slash as a pathname piece separator. Yes. / was used for options, as in the DEC OSes (RSX, VMS), the stuff Unix uses - for. > 4a. QDOS and hence MS-DOS used "\" as the pathname separator to disguise > the origin of the ripped-off software (unauthorized port from CP/M). No. They deliberately wanted people to know that they were upwards compatible. So this would make no sense. And also directories only entered MS-DOS in 2.0 anyway. > 4b. alternative version: CP/M and hence QDOS and MSDOS used "/" as an > option separator to commands, hence it was not available for use > as pathname separator. Yes. / was gone, so they used \. VMS*-like would have been: C:[DOS]FORMAT.COM, C:[WINDOWS.SYSTEM]KRNL386.EXE And the directories would be named DOS.DIR; WINDOWS.DIR and SYSTEM.DIR * Question: did RSX have subdirectories? > Can anyone say definitively how much of the above is true? I am looking > for folks who used these systems, in other words first hand accounts rather > than just what people have heard. I have used CP/M 2.2, MS-DOS 3.0/5.0/6.0, VMS 5.5, and partially* RSX ?.? * hidden behind an menu system, so thats why the question above. -- private: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ office: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ WinCE car, crashing soon on a road near you ###### From: korpela@albert.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: 7 Jul 1998 01:47:52 GMT Organization: Cal Berkeley-- Space Sciences Lab Lines: 60 Message-ID: <6nruo8$ja1$1@agate.berkeley.edu> References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.eng.sun.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: albert.ssl.berkeley.edu Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!agate!albert.ssl.berkeley.edu!korpela In article <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.eng.sun.com>, Peter van der Linden wrote: >The legend runs something like this: > 1. The first version of MS-DOS was actually QDOS from Seattle Computer Works There is much ongoing discussion as to whether it was ever called QDOS. There is a general consensus that at various times it was called 86-DOS and SCP-DOS. I belive the real name of the company whas Seattle Computer Products. > 2. QDOS ("Quick & Dirty OS") was an unauthorized port of CP/M to x86. > CP/M ran on Z-80's. There is little doubt that it was an unauthorized port. (In the US, at least) No authorization is required to reverse engineer a product. There is much debate about whether an of the "port" was accomplished by running a disassembly of CP/M through Intel's 8080->8086 assembly code converter. (This would be illegal in the US). The typical (apocryphal) story is one of special key sequences that would bring up a Digital Research Incorporated copyright notice in early versions of DOS. (At this point, I've never seen a special key sequence that would bring up such a notice in any real CP/M version.) BTW, the CP/M version in question was written to run on the Intel 8080 chip. The ability to run it on the Z-80 was a consequence of the Z-80 design, not vice versa. > 3a. CP/M used "/" as the separator between components in pathnames False > 3b. alternative version: CP/M did not have directories, so did not need or > use any kind of slash as a pathname piece separator. The alternative version (3b) is correct here. CP/M did not have directories other than numbered user areas. In CP/M the '/' character is for command switches, a trait it inherited from Digital Equipment Corp operating systems on which it was patterned. > 4a. QDOS and hence MS-DOS used "\" as the pathname separator to disguise > the origin of the ripped-off software (unauthorized port from CP/M). False, this is far too little to disguise the nearly identical APIs of CP/M and early versions of DOS. > 4b. alternative version: CP/M and hence QDOS and MSDOS used "/" as an > option separator to commands, hence it was not available for use > as pathname separator. Correct. Eric -- Eric Korpela | An object at rest can never be korpela@ssl.berkeley.edu | stopped. Click for home page. ###### From: James Pryor Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 12:36:26 -0500 Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net Lines: 38 Message-ID: <35A25C9A.806BFE66@wi.net> References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.eng.sun.com> <6nruo8$ja1$1@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp98.wi.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!netnews.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!207.250.5.2!nntp.inc.net!news.inc.net!not-for-mail I don't agree with your assumptions for items 3 and 4. Through version 2.2, CP/M didn't have pathnames, just a file specification. d:filename.typ (drive: +8char filename +3char filetype) The default drive was assumed, unless specified. CCP doesn't parse the commandline for user area, so BDOS can't execute files in other user areas. Many utility programs, including DRI system utilities, included an ability to access the other user areas If you can't issue "B4:WS C5:RESUME.DOC" from A1> under vanilla CP/M-Plus, then it applies to version 3 also. 3a. CP/M used "/" as the separator between components in pathnames 3b. alternative version: CP/M did not have directories, so did not need or use any kind of slash as a pathname piece separator. 4a. QDOS and hence MS-DOS used "\" as the pathname separator to disguise the origin of the ripped-off software (unauthorized port from CP/M). 4b. alternative version: CP/M and hence QDOS and MSDOS used "/" as an option separator to commands, hence it was not available for use as pathname separator. In some implementations of CP/M the "/" is a legal character in a file specification, whether the DU: is given or just the 88888888.333 filename+extention. I have been bitten by this(as well as reserved device names) too often while trying to convert old .LBR files to something else under MS-DOS. (search the CP/M CD-ROM for versions of 'slash.com or /.com') ###### From: James Pryor Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 12:36:26 -0500 Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net Lines: 38 Message-ID: <35A25C9A.806BFE66@wi.net> References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.eng.sun.com> <6nruo8$ja1$1@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp98.wi.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!netnews.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!207.250.5.2!nntp.inc.net!news.inc.net!not-for-mail I don't agree with your assumptions for items 3 and 4. Through version 2.2, CP/M didn't have pathnames, just a file specification. d:filename.typ (drive: +8char filename +3char filetype) The default drive was assumed, unless specified. CCP doesn't parse the commandline for user area, so BDOS can't execute files in other user areas. Many utility programs, including DRI system utilities, included an ability to access the other user areas If you can't issue "B4:WS C5:RESUME.DOC" from A1> under vanilla CP/M-Plus, then it applies to version 3 also. 3a. CP/M used "/" as the separator between components in pathnames 3b. alternative version: CP/M did not have directories, so did not need or use any kind of slash as a pathname piece separator. 4a. QDOS and hence MS-DOS used "\" as the pathname separator to disguise the origin of the ripped-off software (unauthorized port from CP/M). 4b. alternative version: CP/M and hence QDOS and MSDOS used "/" as an option separator to commands, hence it was not available for use as pathname separator. In some implementations of CP/M the "/" is a legal character in a file specification, whether the DU: is given or just the 88888888.333 filename+extention. I have been bitten by this(as well as reserved device names) too often while trying to convert old .LBR files to something else under MS-DOS. (search the CP/M CD-ROM for versions of 'slash.com or /.com') ###### From: genew@vip.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 03:10:19 GMT Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com Lines: 26 Message-ID: <35a2b3cb.6502815@news.vip.net> References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35a74069.9339346@news.innet.be> Reply-To: genew@vip.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.209.212.80 X-Trace: 899867408 A01OARAUVD450CCD1C usenet88.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) wrote: [snip] >CP/M-plus also had a limited number of subdirectories, one level >deep - I seem to remember that it divided the disk up in as many >subdirectories as you needed (more like partitioning), allocating >a fixed amount of storage to each directory. At least I believe >that was the reason why I never used them (partitioning a 180k >floppy: were they kidding? ;) It didn't work that way (at least in CP/M 2.2): there was no partitioning. There were 16 user numbers (0 to 15). When you operated in one, files with a different user number were more or less unavailable. [snip] Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 10:08:29 GMT Organization: . Lines: 51 Message-ID: <35a74069.9339346@news.innet.be> References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-177-150.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail Neil Franklin told us > linden@positive.eng.sun.com (Peter van der Linden) writes: > > 4b. alternative version: CP/M and hence QDOS and MSDOS used "/" as an > > option separator to commands, hence it was not available for use > > as pathname separator. > > Yes. / was gone, so they used \. VMS*-like would have been: > > C:[DOS]FORMAT.COM, C:[WINDOWS.SYSTEM]KRNL386.EXE > And the directories would be named DOS.DIR; WINDOWS.DIR and SYSTEM.DIR Somebody said that a / for options was MS-specific and DR used brackets, but isn't it so that CP/M originally used / (DR too: PIP is definitely not MS), and later CP/M-Plus used [] (what was it's other name again - CP/M V3.0 or 4.0?) CP/M-plus also had a limited number of subdirectories, one level deep - I seem to remember that it divided the disk up in as many subdirectories as you needed (more like partitioning), allocating a fixed amount of storage to each directory. At least I believe that was the reason why I never used them (partitioning a 180k floppy: were they kidding? ;) [ob/] TRSDOS used to put a / between a filename and the extension, where we expect a period. > * Question: did RSX have subdirectories? I'm not completely sure. I do remember that I've had problems finding my files back a couple of times, but it's also possible that it was because I logged in under another UID. I _think_ it had subdirectories (it was a rather advanced system, at least when compared to the other ones I used around that time), or else I switched UID's to simulate them - you would only see files with your own UID, unless when you explicitly asked to list them all. > I have used CP/M 2.2, MS-DOS 3.0/5.0/6.0, VMS 5.5, and partially* RSX ?.? I've used, among some others I'd better say of I "touched" than "used" them, and in alphabetical order: CP/M v 2.x (more than 1 system), CP/M-Plus (briefly, before I bought a PC), MS-DOS 1 (briefly, not on my own system), MS-DOS 3.14 and +, RSX-11 (about 1 year, 1 day per week) RT-11 (2 years every day, of which I hardly remember a thing) TRSDOS (+ derivatives) ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 17:21:33 +0100 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <35A39C8D.3A8868E@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35a74069.9339346@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 899924955 nnrp-02:16371 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 23 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Luc Van der Veken wrote: > Somebody said that a / for options was MS-specific and DR used > brackets, but isn't it so that CP/M originally used / (DR too: > PIP is definitely not MS), and later CP/M-Plus used [] (what was > it's other name again - CP/M V3.0 or 4.0?) The first PIP I used was on PDP-11 DOS v 8.2 in 1973, and / was used for options. > > * Question: did RSX have subdirectories? > > I'm not completely sure. I do remember that I've had problems > finding my files back a couple of times, but it's also possible > that it was because I logged in under another UID. Yes, but not in the first versions. They came in around 1985 IIRC. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 08:07:07 GMT Organization: . Message-ID: <35a76f6d.2586077@news.innet.be> References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35a74069.9339346@news.innet.be> <35a2b3cb.6502815@news.vip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-226-12.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Lines: 29 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail Also sprach genew@vip.net (Gene Wirchenko) on Wed, 08 Jul 1998 03:10:19 GMT to alt.folklore.computers: > lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) wrote: > [snip] > >CP/M-plus subdirectories partitioning > > It didn't work that way (at least in CP/M 2.2): there was no > partitioning. There were 16 user numbers (0 to 15). When you > operated in one, files with a different user number were more or less > unavailable. I know, I used CP/M 2.x too. CP/M-Plus was it successor, it arrived around the same time as MS-DOS - give or take a year. Tandy/Radio Shack sold it for the TRS-80 model IV, with the docs in 2 or 3 grey-colored ring binders - that's the only place where I ever saw it. Its version number was, iirc, 3.0. In the comp.os.cpm FAQ (http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/CPM-faq/faq.html) I found a single reference to CP/M-plus, and there too it sounded like they were referring to version 3. It's possible that the Tandy version came with ZCPR, and that I was mistaken about the fixed sizes. ZCPR2 already created something like directories, and ZCPR3 further worked them out. ###### From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 08:13:06 GMT Organization: . Lines: 14 Message-ID: <35a87af7.5539851@news.innet.be> References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35a74069.9339346@news.innet.be> <35a2b3cb.6502815@news.vip.net> <35a76f6d.2586077@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-226-12.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail Also sprach lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) on Thu, 09 Jul 1998 08:07:07 GMT to alt.folklore.computers: > Its version number was, iirc, 3.0. A bit too late for my other post, I found this on http://iinet.net.au/~daveb/cpm/index.html : : CP/M comes/came in three main versions; 1.4, 2.2 and 3.1. : v2.2 was the basis of MSDOS, while v3.1 evolved into DRDOS and : Novell DOS. So it must've been 3.1 instead of 3.0. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: Thu, 09 Jul 98 10:50:38 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 30 Message-ID: <6o2ami$pdq$1@strato.ultra.net> References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35a74069.9339346@news.innet.be> <35A39C8D.3A8868E@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: d16.dial-17.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 9 Jul 1998 11:48:34 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.ultranet.com!d16 In article <35A39C8D.3A8868E@tnglwood.demon.co.uk>, Robert Billing wrote: >Luc Van der Veken wrote: > >> Somebody said that a / for options was MS-specific and DR used >> brackets, but isn't it so that CP/M originally used / (DR too: >> PIP is definitely not MS), and later CP/M-Plus used [] (what was >> it's other name again - CP/M V3.0 or 4.0?) > > The first PIP I used was on PDP-11 DOS v 8.2 in 1973, and / was used >for options. Using slashes (/) to denote command modifiers (we called them switches) was one of the basic parts of the command standards DEC had. I don't know about the minis, but TOPS-10 evolved strict rules about file specifications, switches, command formats, etc. These standards became standards as the OSes evolved over the years. TOPS-10 had the grandfather constraint that old programs and batch files had to work with each new version of software we shipped. "Version indicators" had a strict system of rules, too. I'm writing this because it occurred to me that some people have been making the assumption that the standards used today were set in stone way back then. [pun definitely intended] They weren't. /BAH Sigh! - Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Kevin Ashley Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 16:02:34 +0100 Organization: Posted via ULCC Internet Services Lines: 39 Message-ID: <35A4DB8A.41C6@ulcc.ac.uk> References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35a74069.9339346@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: silver.ulcc.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; IRIX 5.3 IP22) To: Luc Van der Veken Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!server5.netnews.ja.net!ulcc.ac.uk!not-for-mail Luc Van der Veken wrote: > > Neil Franklin told us > [much snipping] > > > * Question: did RSX have subdirectories? > > I'm not completely sure. I do remember that I've had problems > finding my files back a couple of times, but it's also possible > that it was because I logged in under another UID. > > I _think_ it had subdirectories (it was a rather advanced system, > at least when compared to the other ones I used around that > time), or else I switched UID's to simulate them - you would only > see files with your own UID, unless when you explicitly asked to > list them all. RSX had disks and directories, but not subdirectories. AFAIR, disks used the usual digital style of XXNN: (e.g. DU01:) for unit NN of device type XX. Each disk had a directory [0,0] which was effectively the root - it contained files with names like 001001.DIR and 200200.DIR as well as INDEX.SYS and BITMAP.SYS (? may be wrong on those - the memory isn't what it was.) which were part of the filesystem management function. The directory which 001001.DIR described was referenced as [1,1]. The numbers corresponded in many cases to PPNs (effectively group and user ids.) However, a good number of them were used for system purposes - everything in groups of 10 or below was reserved for that, as were some in the 300 region and some in the 200 region, for things like help files and Decnet, but here my memory is getting very fuzzy. Unless you had used up your entire UID space, there was nothing to stop you giving each user more than one directory, which they could use for file management in much the same way as one might use subdirectories. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Kevin Ashley K.Ashley@Ulcc.ac.uk Special Projects Manager http://www.ulcc.ac.uk/staff/Kevin+Ashley ULCC ...ukc!ncdlab!K.Ashley (but probably not any more) This is not a signature ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:31:12 +0100 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <35A5D150.713D57CA@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35a74069.9339346@news.innet.be> <35A4DB8A.41C6@ulcc.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 900142972 nnrp-05:24307 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 24 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Kevin Ashley wrote: > RSX had disks and directories, but not subdirectories. AFAIR, disks used This was true until release 3 of MicroRSX, after which a directory could have *any* name that was syntactically valid as a file name, with the extension (type) .DIR and usually version ;1. At the same time subdirectories were introduced, and the syntax became basically the same as that on the VAX. A curious side effect of this was that the macros which fill in the FCBs from the text file names were changed at the same time so that application programs which opened files by name only needed to be reassembled to work correctly, but where programmers had poked the FCBs themselves, programs broke horribly. It was this event that was the beginning of my life-long opposition to "folklore documentation" written by third parties, such as one commonly finds on the M$ shelves in many bookshops. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: Sat, 11 Jul 98 10:07:03 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <6o7gtf$cfc$2@ligarius.ultra.net> References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35a74069.9339346@news.innet.be> <35A4DB8A.41C6@ulcc.ac.uk> <35A5D150.713D57CA@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: d9.dial-11.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 11 Jul 1998 11:05:19 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.clark.net!207.172.3.49!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!news.ultranet.com!d9 In article <35A5D150.713D57CA@tnglwood.demon.co.uk>, Robert Billing wrote: >Kevin Ashley wrote: > >> RSX had disks and directories, but not subdirectories. AFAIR, disks used > > This was true until release 3 of MicroRSX, after which a directory >could have *any* name that was syntactically valid as a file name, with >the extension (type) .DIR and usually version ;1. At the same time >subdirectories were introduced, and the syntax became basically the same >as that on the VAX. > > A curious side effect of this was that the macros which fill in the >FCBs from the text file names were changed at the same time so that >application programs which opened files by name only needed to be >reassembled to work correctly, but where programmers had poked the FCBs >themselves, programs broke horribly. It was this event that was the >beginning of my life-long opposition to "folklore documentation" written >by third parties, such as one commonly finds on the M$ shelves in many >bookshops. > Would you mind being more specific? I don't understand what you mean by folklore documentation in this case. /BAH Sigh! - Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 14:28:24 +0100 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <35A76878.64DD3AD0@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35a74069.9339346@news.innet.be> <35A4DB8A.41C6@ulcc.ac.uk> <35A5D150.713D57CA@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <6o7gtf$cfc$2@ligarius.ultra.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 900314446 nnrp-06:1317 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 35 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!198.138.0.5!newshub.northeast.verio.net!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > Would you mind being more specific? I don't understand what you mean > by folklore documentation in this case. What I mean is documentation in the form of books written by people who have analysed running examples of a software product, but written without reference to the original sources, or the design documentation used to create the product. Basically I would contrast the grey or orange wall, the thirty plus ring binders which document VMS, with "Undocumented Windows". The first was written in close colaboration with the designers and programmers of VMS, and not only contains complete documentation of all the API calls, but contains some notes on what can be relied on to remain stable in future releases, and what must be regarded as transient and specific to one release. The second was written by dissecting a running system, and whilst it contains a great deal that is correct, it cannot, almost by definition, make any statement about what will remain correct on the next issue. This is "folklore documentation", and illustrates the style of working which I oppose. Basically, if the OS vendor does not properly document *all* of the API, either in the way that DEC does, or by making the relevant source and notes available, then I am compelled to treat the OS as broken (M$ are not the only offenders here). -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### Date: 12 Jul 98 11:17:45 -0800 From: "Charlie Gibbs" Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35a74069.9339346@news.innet.be> <35A4DB8A.41C6@ulcc.ac.uk> <35A5D150.713D57CA@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <561.497T2270T6775279@sky.bus.com> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Lines: 15 X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) NNTP-Posting-Host: news.skybus.com Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!ubnnews.unisource.ch!news-nyc.telia.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!204.244.4.2!news.westel.com!news.skybus.com!204.244.247.122 In article <35A5D150.713D57CA@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk (Robert Billing) writes: > It was this event that was the >beginning of my life-long opposition to "folklore documentation" written >by third parties, such as one commonly finds on the M$ shelves in many >bookshops. It's a shame that companies like M$ have made it necessary. In cases like these, I envision reverse-engineers as freedom fighters. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 12:14:53 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 57 Message-ID: <6od15o$dng$1@ligarius.ultra.net> References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35a74069.9339346@news.innet.be> <35A4DB8A.41C6@ulcc.ac.uk> <35A5D150.713D57CA@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <6o7gtf$cfc$2@ligarius.ultra.net> <35A76878.64DD3AD0@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: d9.dial-12.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 13 Jul 1998 13:13:28 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!209.244.253.199!newsfeed.xcom.net!news.ultranet.com!d9 In article <35A76878.64DD3AD0@tnglwood.demon.co.uk>, Robert Billing wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> Would you mind being more specific? I don't understand what you mean >> by folklore documentation in this case. > > What I mean is documentation in the form of books written by people who >have analysed running examples of a software product, but written >without reference to the original sources, or the design documentation >used to create the product. > > Basically I would contrast the grey or orange wall, the thirty plus >ring binders which document VMS, with "Undocumented Windows". > > The first was written in close colaboration with the designers and >programmers of VMS, and not only contains complete documentation of all >the API calls, but contains some notes on what can be relied on to >remain stable in future releases, and what must be regarded as transient >and specific to one release. As someone who had a lot to do with the white wall (this is the first time I've heard those books referred to as a wall, but I understand why :-))), documentation was an integral part of our release criteria; if the doc updates weren't ready, we simply didn't do FCS (First Customer Ship). We can get into a discussion about the good things and the bad things about this restriction if you wish. > The second was written by dissecting a running system, and whilst it >contains a great deal that is correct, it cannot, almost by definition, >make any statement about what will remain correct on the next issue. >This is "folklore documentation", and illustrates the style of working >which I oppose. Thank you, for the explanation. Just as a quibble, I wouldn't use the adjective folklore. It implies a more benign meaning. This practice is not benign; it is precursor to eventual disintegration. [There's a bad pun in there with a second layer of meaning for those of you who know DEC history.] > > Basically, if the OS vendor does not properly document *all* of the >API, either in the way that DEC does, or by making the relevant source >and notes available, then I am compelled to treat the OS as broken (M$ >are not the only offenders here). > Shipping sources is a discussion that we (TOPS10 monitor group) have had for decades. There are pros and there are cons. This would be another good discussion. /BAH Sigh! - Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 12:16:47 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 25 Message-ID: <6od199$dng$2@ligarius.ultra.net> References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35a74069.9339346@news.innet.be> <35A4DB8A.41C6@ulcc.ac.uk> <35A5D150.713D57CA@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <561.497T2270T6775279@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: d9.dial-12.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 13 Jul 1998 13:15:21 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!news.ultranet.com!d9 In article <561.497T2270T6775279@sky.bus.com>, "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: >In article <35A5D150.713D57CA@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> >unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk (Robert Billing) writes: > >> It was this event that was the >>beginning of my life-long opposition to "folklore documentation" written >>by third parties, such as one commonly finds on the M$ shelves in many >>bookshops. > >It's a shame that companies like M$ have made it necessary. Consider it as part of their folklore, and you can figure out where the company is going. > >In cases like these, I envision reverse-engineers as freedom fighters. > :-)). With their hands tied behind their backs. /BAH Sigh! - Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:05:24 +0100 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <35AA4C63.4E741563@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35a74069.9339346@news.innet.be> <35A4DB8A.41C6@ulcc.ac.uk> <35A5D150.713D57CA@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <6o7gtf$cfc$2@ligarius.ultra.net> <35A76878.64DD3AD0@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <6od15o$dng$1@ligarius.ultra.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 900355099 nnrp-02:19335 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 32 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > Thank you, for the explanation. Just as a quibble, I wouldn't use > the adjective folklore. It implies a more benign meaning. This Yes, I see your point. I just try to live in peace with the small furry animals, and avoid calling it things like "the usual b****y rubbish perpitrated by the devil's respresentitive on earth". However, to avoid confusion how does "occult documentation" sound? It is perhaps semantically more correct, as it is documentation of things which are 1) Hidden 2) Evil 3) Likely to lead to loss of your immortal soul 4) Involve dabbling in really horrid things and 5) Not certain of results. Two quotes from CS Lewis spring to mind "Long ago Mark had read somewhere of 'things of that extreme evil which seems innocent to the uninitiate,' and had wondered what sort of things they might be. Now he felt he knew." (Hideous strength P369 Bodley Head edition). The other is the one about magicians who "attained not certainty to greatness of works" which I can't instantly find. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 17:40:30 +0100 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <35AB89FE.17C20BDF@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35a74069.9339346@news.innet.be> <35A4DB8A.41C6@ulcc.ac.uk> <35A5D150.713D57CA@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <561.497T2270T6775279@sky.bus.com> <35b1fd62.7482199@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 900486445 nnrp-08:23434 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 47 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Luc Van der Veken wrote: > When I saw some of these books for the first time, MS-DOS (and > the PC) had yet to be born, so I wonder why M$ gets the credits. Well, since they *invented* everything retrospectively, possibly they should also be *blamed* retrospectively. However with the examples you cite there was adequate original documentation in the cases I know about, and 3rd party was an add-on, but you could go back to the real thing for a definitive, if less readable, answer if you wanted. There are however *no* definitive documents about M$ APIs for example, which was where M$ broke new ground. > That's one point of view. Another one is: "I envision > reverse-engineers as the reason why some things stop working when > an OS is upgraded". > If I understood him right, this is more along the line of what > Robert was saying. Obviously if someone is selling an OS which is supposed to be for general use, and which contains undocumented API calls for the express purpose of messing up the competition, then reverse engineering is the high and holy duty of the hacker community in order to slay the beast and rescue the princess (or vice versa), that goes without saying. However, reverse engineering does sometimes break when an OS is upgraded, but this cuts both ways. If the intention of the OS vendor is to break third party apps by randomly changing the APIs, then the more things break, the less popular the vendor is with the customers, and thus we hasten the Second Coming of The Proper Systems, in which the Superminis Will Once Again Stalk The Earth, the lion will lay down with the lamb and both will use both vi and emacs... Sorry chaps, got a bit carried away there, but you get the general drift. I don't like reverse engineering, I never have and I never will, for the reasons given before, but at the moment, with the present shocking state of certain commercial OSes, it is probably a necessary evil. I'd still like to see it made obsolete by proper documentation, open sources, or a bit of both. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: das@picknowl.com.au (David Simpson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 17:58:42 GMT Organization: Telstra Internet Browse Server Lines: 19 Message-ID: <35ab97d9.2664631@news.picknowl.com.au> References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.38.162.167 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!xfer.kren.ne.kr!xfer.kren.nm.kr!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!intgwlon.nntp.telstra.net!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!not-for-mail On 06 Jul 1998 17:35:03 -0700, Marco S Hyman wrote: >rivie@rivie.daautah.com (Roger Ivie) writes: >Uhh, user codes were a standard part of CP/M, not specific to ZCPR. >The standard CCP had a USER command. The problem with user codes was >that the normal CCP did not check user 0 for commands files, so you >had to have a copy of each command under each user code. That >shortcoming is one, IIRC, that was resolved by ZCPR and other `shells'. > >(I just double checked this by looking at "Inside CP/M" which for some >reason is still sitting on the bookshelf within easy reach. CP/M could get commands from User 0 if the SYSTEM attribute for that command was set. This had the effect of hiding the file from the DIR command and a supplementary DIRS command could be used to show these files. David Simpson das@picknowl.com.au =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= You know you're getting older when... you're having sex with someone half your age and it's legal. ###### From: rivie@rivie.daautah.com (Roger Ivie) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: 14 Jul 1998 20:31:27 GMT Organization: XMission (801 539 0852) Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35ab97d9.2664631@news.picknowl.com.au> Reply-To: rivie@daa-utah.com NNTP-Posting-Host: logan34.modem.xmission.com X-Trace: news.xmission.com 900448287 15379 166.70.3.226 (14 Jul 1998 20:31:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@xmission.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jul 1998 20:31:27 GMT X-Newsreader: slrn (0.8.8.2 UNIX) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!xmission!rivie >On 06 Jul 1998 17:35:03 -0700, Marco S Hyman wrote: > >>rivie@rivie.daautah.com (Roger Ivie) writes: >>Uhh, user codes were a standard part of CP/M, not specific to ZCPR. >>The standard CCP had a USER command. The problem with user codes was >>that the normal CCP did not check user 0 for commands files, so you >>had to have a copy of each command under each user code. That >>shortcoming is one, IIRC, that was resolved by ZCPR and other `shells'. Yes, user areas were standard in CP/M, but the DU: syntax was not. Moving things between user areas was no fun. -- Roger Ivie Design Analysis Associates 75 West 100 South Logan, UT 84321 mailto:rivie@daa-utah.com phoneto:(435)753-2212 ###### From: Dan Strychalski Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: 14 Jul 1998 22:15:06 GMT Organization: Cameo Communications, Inc. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <6ogl9a$fda$1@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.72.104.4 Originator: dski@ Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!nntp.abs.net!news.cetlink.net!serv.hinet.net!spring.edu.tw!feeder.seed.net.tw!news.seed.net.tw!!dski Luc Van der Veken (lucvdv@null.net) wrote -- > When I saw some of these books for the first time, MS-DOS (and > the PC) had yet to be born, so I wonder why M$ gets the credits. Quite true, third-party software guides go back a long way. The thing about Murkystuff is that they _claim_ their products are "intuitive," and they proceed to sell those products with little or no documentation and completely unhelpful on-line help; meanwhile, Microsoft Press rakes in the cakes, and people actually pay money for courses in Windross basics.... Regarding freedom fighters, anyone who uses anything but Windross is a freedom fighter. Dan Strychalski dski at cameonet, cameo, com, tw (no _x_) ###### From: genew@vip.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 23:10:25 GMT Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here Lines: 37 Message-ID: <35abbea6.15932114@news.vip.net> References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35a74069.9339346@news.innet.be> <35A4DB8A.41C6@ulcc.ac.uk> <35A5D150.713D57CA@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <561.497T2270T6775279@sky.bus.com> <35b1fd62.7482199@news.innet.be> Reply-To: genew@vip.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.209.212.70 X-Trace: 900457899 A01OARAUVD446CCD1C usenet87.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) wrote: >Also sprach "Charlie Gibbs" on 12 Jul 98 >11:17:45 -0800 to alt.folklore.computers: [snip] >> In cases like these, I envision reverse-engineers as freedom fighters. > >That's one point of view. Another one is: "I envision >reverse-engineers as the reason why some things stop working when >an OS is upgraded". Whereas without the reverse engineering, there might not be a map at all. I'd gladly RTFM if I could find the thing and it were readable, accurate, complete, . >If I understood him right, this is more along the line of what >Robert was saying. > >The reality (in the MS case) can probably be found somewhere in >the middle, and looking at it from either side will make it seem >to be too close to the other side. I'll gladly leave the documented reserved for future use areas alone. Oops, I used that word "documented". Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 01:07:23 GMT Organization: . Lines: 38 Message-ID: <35b1fd62.7482199@news.innet.be> References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35a74069.9339346@news.innet.be> <35A4DB8A.41C6@ulcc.ac.uk> <35A5D150.713D57CA@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <561.497T2270T6775279@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-226-193.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail Also sprach "Charlie Gibbs" on 12 Jul 98 11:17:45 -0800 to alt.folklore.computers: > In article <35A5D150.713D57CA@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> > unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk (Robert Billing) writes: [he was talking about RSX, but that got snipped] > > It was this event that was the > >beginning of my life-long opposition to "folklore documentation" written > >by third parties, such as one commonly finds on the M$ shelves in many > >bookshops. > > It's a shame that companies like M$ have made it necessary. Going back to my early computer days, the first 3rd-party documentation I saw in the stores over here contained, among others (and not in chronological order): - WordStar - Wordperfect (later) - dBase 2 and 3 - 1-2-3 (later) - CP/M - Unix (not a lot: not popular enough with the general public?) When I saw some of these books for the first time, MS-DOS (and the PC) had yet to be born, so I wonder why M$ gets the credits. > In cases like these, I envision reverse-engineers as freedom fighters. That's one point of view. Another one is: "I envision reverse-engineers as the reason why some things stop working when an OS is upgraded". If I understood him right, this is more along the line of what Robert was saying. The reality (in the MS case) can probably be found somewhere in the middle, and looking at it from either side will make it seem to be too close to the other side. ###### From: genew@vip.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 04:40:42 GMT Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here Lines: 48 Message-ID: <35abf967.30975057@news.vip.net> References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35a74069.9339346@news.innet.be> <35A4DB8A.41C6@ulcc.ac.uk> <35A5D150.713D57CA@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <561.497T2270T6775279@sky.bus.com> <35b1fd62.7482199@news.innet.be> <35abbea6.15932114@news.vip.net> Reply-To: genew@vip.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.209.212.47 X-Trace: 900477620 A01OARAUVD42FCCD1C usenet52.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.wli.net!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail genew@vip.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: >lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) wrote: > >>Also sprach "Charlie Gibbs" on 12 Jul 98 >>11:17:45 -0800 to alt.folklore.computers: > >[snip] > >>> In cases like these, I envision reverse-engineers as freedom fighters. >> >>That's one point of view. Another one is: "I envision >>reverse-engineers as the reason why some things stop working when >>an OS is upgraded". > > Whereas without the reverse engineering, there might not be a map ^^^^^ Oops! That should have been "an app". >at all. I'd gladly RTFM if I could find the thing and it were >readable, accurate, complete, NOT>. > >>If I understood him right, this is more along the line of what >>Robert was saying. >> >>The reality (in the MS case) can probably be found somewhere in >>the middle, and looking at it from either side will make it seem >>to be too close to the other side. > > I'll gladly leave the documented reserved for future use areas >alone. Oops, I used that word "documented". > >Sincerely, > >Gene Wirchenko > > >Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: > I have preferences. > You have biases. > He/She has prejudices. Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: Wed, 15 Jul 98 11:28:03 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 44 Message-ID: <6oi76g$fih$2@ligarius.ultra.net> References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35a74069.9339346@news.innet.be> <35A4DB8A.41C6@ulcc.ac.uk> <35A5D150.713D57CA@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <561.497T2270T6775279@sky.bus.com> <35b1fd62.7482199@news.innet.be> <35abbea6.15932114@news.vip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: d2.dial-17.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 15 Jul 1998 12:26:56 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.xcom.net!news.ultranet.com!d2 In article <35abbea6.15932114@news.vip.net>, genew@vip.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: >lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) wrote: > >>Also sprach "Charlie Gibbs" on 12 Jul 98 >>11:17:45 -0800 to alt.folklore.computers: > >[snip] > >>> In cases like these, I envision reverse-engineers as freedom fighters. >> >>That's one point of view. Another one is: "I envision >>reverse-engineers as the reason why some things stop working when >>an OS is upgraded". > > Whereas without the reverse engineering, there might not be a map >at all. I'd gladly RTFM if I could find the thing and it were >readable, accurate, complete, NOT>. > >>If I understood him right, this is more along the line of what >>Robert was saying. >> >>The reality (in the MS case) can probably be found somewhere in >>the middle, and looking at it from either side will make it seem >>to be too close to the other side. > > I'll gladly leave the documented reserved for future use areas >alone. Oops, I used that word "documented". You would be one of the rare ones. We did document our stuff and we did use the "reserved for future use" phrase. Unfortunately, some customers didn't believe us. So, when we did formally define something we broke the bejesus out of customers' software. That was one problem that we never did manage to solve. What we did do, is plan the definition two releases ahead and generate a warning message if we detected that the word was being used by the customer with release n. Then, we felt comfortable enough to use the definition in release n+1. There were still problems but that was our best stab at not letting the customers define us into a black hole. /BAH Sigh! - Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: Wed, 15 Jul 98 11:29:17 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <6oi78q$fih$3@ligarius.ultra.net> References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35a74069.9339346@news.innet.be> <35A4DB8A.41C6@ulcc.ac.uk> <35A5D150.713D57CA@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <561.497T2270T6775279@sky.bus.com> <35b1fd62.7482199@news.innet.be> <35abbea6.15932114@news.vip.net> <35abf967.30975057@news.vip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: d2.dial-17.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 15 Jul 1998 12:28:10 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!netnews.com!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!news.ultranet.com!d2 In article <35abf967.30975057@news.vip.net>, genew@vip.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: >genew@vip.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: > >>lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) wrote: >> >>>Also sprach "Charlie Gibbs" on 12 Jul 98 >>>11:17:45 -0800 to alt.folklore.computers: >> >>[snip] >> >>>> In cases like these, I envision reverse-engineers as freedom fighters. >>> >>>That's one point of view. Another one is: "I envision >>>reverse-engineers as the reason why some things stop working when >>>an OS is upgraded". >> >> Whereas without the reverse engineering, there might not be a map > >^^^^^ > Oops! That should have been "an app". Chuckle. Map read just fine, too. /BAH Sigh! - Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: korpela@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: 15 Jul 1998 18:44:54 GMT Organization: Cal Berkeley-- Space Sciences Lab Lines: 36 Message-ID: <6oitb6$3id$1@agate.berkeley.edu> References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35A5D150.713D57CA@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <561.497T2270T6775279@sky.bus.com> <35b1fd62.7482199@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: islay.ssl.berkeley.edu Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!agate!islay.ssl.berkeley.edu!korpela In article <35b1fd62.7482199@news.innet.be>, Luc Van der Veken wrote: >> >> It's a shame that companies like M$ have made it necessary. > >Going back to my early computer days, the first 3rd-party >documentation I saw in the stores over here contained, among >others (and not in chronological order): >- WordStar >- Wordperfect (later) >- dBase 2 and 3 >- 1-2-3 (later) >- CP/M >- Unix (not a lot: not popular enough with the general public?) The fact that third party documentation was available meant that the first party documentation was insufficient for beginners, not that it was non-existant. Even Microsoft used to ship documentation with it's products. DOS 3.3 used to ship with a 300 page DOS manual and a 300 page GW-Basic manual. I remember being astonished at the pamphlet that shipped with DOS 4.01. Windows 95 ships will less of a manual than Windows 1.03 did. Unix nearly always shipped with sufficient documentation for an administator/programmer, but God help the new (l)user. Of course, sometimes the man pages didn't come in printed form. I'm looking across the room at the 14 volume SunOS 4.0 manual as I write this. Things have gotten much worse with Sun documentation since that was purchased, of course. Eric -- Eric Korpela | An object at rest can never be korpela@ssl.berkeley.edu | stopped. Click for home page. ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 21:36:35 +0100 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <35AD12D3.4B0F229F@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35a74069.9339346@news.innet.be> <35A4DB8A.41C6@ulcc.ac.uk> <35A5D150.713D57CA@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <561.497T2270T6775279@sky.bus.com> <35b1fd62.7482199@news.innet.be> <35abbea6.15932114@news.vip.net> <6oi76g$fih$2@ligarius.ultra.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 900536459 nnrp-03:16761 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 14 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > You would be one of the rare ones. We did document our stuff and we > did use the "reserved for future use" phrase. Unfortunately, some I've been known to define areas as "reserved, must be zero, and generate an error if it wasn't" this *guarantees* something that you can redefine in a later issue. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 21:46:09 +0100 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <35AD1511.47E8E4B8@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35a74069.9339346@news.innet.be> <35A4DB8A.41C6@ulcc.ac.uk> <35A5D150.713D57CA@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <561.497T2270T6775279@sky.bus.com> <35b1fd62.7482199@news.innet.be> <35AB89FE.17C20BDF@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35b577d1.11727119@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 900536463 nnrp-03:16761 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 33 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Luc Van der Veken wrote: > Where documentation is concerned, I don't completely understand > what you would want. Basically, give me the Orange Wall and I shall be happy. > BTW, did you ever have one of your own apps (I mean self-written) > broken by a change to a _documented_ API, or did you too only > hear about that on the street? I think you are missing the point here. In general when programming on M$ I have tended to used the documented APIs, which are fairly stable, at the expense of poor performance. Cow orkers who have used the undocumented APIs to get performance have occasionally come heavily unstuck here. My original argument was that it is a Bad Thing to attempt to use undocumented APIs on the basis of reverse engineering, and hence that undocumented APIs are a Bad Thing in their own right and that people who promulgate them Should Not Be Allowed To Stand Or To Have Seats. > A final observation: most people seem to forget that in the good > ol' days, when everything was properly documented, a mini's OS > used to cost $2000 and a Fortran compiler another $2500 or so. > Not including the sources - they cost a multiple of that. OTOH in those days they sold in about 1/100th the volume. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 03:48:31 GMT Organization: . Lines: 87 Message-ID: <35b577d1.11727119@news.innet.be> References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35a74069.9339346@news.innet.be> <35A4DB8A.41C6@ulcc.ac.uk> <35A5D150.713D57CA@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <561.497T2270T6775279@sky.bus.com> <35b1fd62.7482199@news.innet.be> <35AB89FE.17C20BDF@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-226-13.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail Also sprach Robert Billing on Tue, 14 Jul 1998 17:40:30 +0100 to alt.folklore.computers: > There > are however *no* definitive documents about M$ APIs for example, which > was where M$ broke new ground. > I don't like reverse engineering, I never have and I never will, for > the reasons given before, but at the moment, with the present shocking > state of certain commercial OSes, it is probably a necessary evil. I'd > still like to see it made obsolete by proper documentation, open > sources, or a bit of both. As far as the sources are concerned, you're 98% right (those 2% being the win95/winNT DDKs, consisting largely of sources). And now I'm not even mentioning C runtime and MFC sources: both come with the C compiler. You don't get the kernel sources, but being able to see how they interface to it themselves can sometimes tell you what you need more clearly than having those kernel sources themselves. Where documentation is concerned, I don't completely understand what you would want. The MSDN library comes on a two CD set, because it doesn't fit on a single one: no "definitive" API docs indeed, since they are constantly being updated and expanded, and updated CD sets released every three months. The sheer volume of it makes it /almost/ acceptible that the latest changes come months (sometimes too many, OK) behind the actual API changes themselves - it must be a hell of a work to fit them nicely into the existing documentation without creating a load of ambiguities and documentation errors. I can imigine it lively that writing the API's is easier than documenting them. The largest problem I'm personally having with M$ docs is that the haystack is too damn big - sometimes you spend more time searching where the exact things you need are documented, than working at your project (even _with_ all the cross-references it's full of). Sometimes (accent on 'some') you only find out it's *not* documented - I won't disagree on that. The docs not being supplied with the system (which you didn't drag into it, but I expect someone else will) is not that strong an argument either, since a lot of it (including the win32 API) can freely be read at the MSDN web site (you're required to register with MSDN online, but that registration is free. Methinks that registration is mainly because they want to scare off those using pirated software). If you prefer the CD set, you can choose between a single edition (at a price just a little more than a single 3rd party book, but for that you get _all_ the docs), or a subscription that gets you automatic quarterly updates. BTW, did you ever have one of your own apps (I mean self-written) broken by a change to a _documented_ API, or did you too only hear about that on the street? (Bugs don't count this time ;) Poor documentation - sometimes. Late-coming documentation - often (no, sorry: usually). But _no_ documentation? Its volume (I do mean literally _volume_: amount of text) exceeds that what comes with any Linux distribution, and that's _not_ because they're mostly talking about the weather and football. A final observation: most people seem to forget that in the good ol' days, when everything was properly documented, a mini's OS used to cost $2000 and a Fortran compiler another $2500 or so. Not including the sources - they cost a multiple of that. MS is more like "if you want it at McDonald's prices, you'll have to eat McDonalds food - and stay outta our kitchen". -- As I thought after writing this epistel - D*mn, when am I gonna learn to keep my f*ck*n mouth shut. This can only lead to _more_ OS bashing in a poor NG that has nothing to do with it, and no defense against it whatsoever. ###### From: Mike Swaim Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35a74069.9339346@news.innet.be> <35A4DB8A.41C6@ulcc.ac.uk> <35A5D150.713D57CA@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <561.497T2270T6775279@sky.bus.com> <35b1fd62.7482199@news.innet.be> <35AB89FE.17C20BDF@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35b577d1.11727119@news.innet.be> User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980226 (UNIX) (FreeBSD/2.2.6-RELEASE (i386)) Lines: 23 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 16:56:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.127.0.132 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 11:56:00 CDT Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Luc Van der Veken wrote: : Where documentation is concerned, I don't completely understand : what you would want. : The MSDN library comes on a two CD set, because it doesn't fit on : a single one: no "definitive" API docs indeed, since they are : constantly being updated and expanded, and updated CD sets : released every three months. That's relatively recent though. The classic undocumented functions were odd functions imported by office that weren't documented ANYWHERE, and pretty much still aren't. Even with MSDN, MS's documentation can be wrong or incomplete. I remember an article on plug and play that started out essentially saying, "X is the documented behavior. Y is what really happens." WDJ recently ran a letter saying that an undocumented flag was documented, and gave the MSDN reference. The editor pointed out that the addition came several months after they'd gotten the letter. There's a lot of room for improvement. -- Mike Swaim, Avatar of Chaos: Disclaimer:I sometimes lie. Home: swaim@c-com.net Alum: swaim@rice.edu Quote: "Boingie"^4 Y,W&D ###### From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 02:33:09 GMT Organization: . Lines: 52 Message-ID: <35afa644.1968654@news.innet.be> References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35a74069.9339346@news.innet.be> <35A4DB8A.41C6@ulcc.ac.uk> <35A5D150.713D57CA@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <561.497T2270T6775279@sky.bus.com> <35b1fd62.7482199@news.innet.be> <35AB89FE.17C20BDF@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35b577d1.11727119@news.innet.be> <35AD1511.47E8E4B8@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-226-221.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail Also sprach Robert Billing on Wed, 15 Jul 1998 21:46:09 +0100 to alt.folklore.computers: > Luc Van der Veken wrote: > > > Where documentation is concerned, I don't completely understand > > what you would want. > > Basically, give me the Orange Wall and I shall be happy. Ahhh- you want *printed* docs, and preferrably lots of them ;) I bought the printed Visual C++ manuals (6 volumes, some 5 or 6000 pages) for exactly that reason. Today they're standing there on a shelf most of the time, while I use the online version because it comes with a search engine - and because it gets updated with every upgrade. Not that I regret buying them, though: there _are_ certain advantages. And disadvantages. As Spamford Wallass put it so beautifully in his Cyberpromo days: "save the trees" ;) > I think you are missing the point here. In general when programming on > M$ I have tended to used the documented APIs, which are fairly stable, > at the expense of poor performance. Cow orkers who have used the > undocumented APIs to get performance have occasionally come heavily > unstuck here. Are you talking about performance, or easy/rapid development? For some reason I often think of "rapid" development spelled with a B in the middle. The undocumented api's (I'll be honest and call them that until they become documented) are said to be mostly there to give MS's own apps an edge. Now I find most of their apps not to be more performant than the competition's. Something I'm asking myself questions about is if MS's own apps even _use_ those undocumented API calls. If an API changes, their own apps should become broken too, shouldn't they? Or do they know a year in advance which exact call will get changed later? > OTOH in those days they sold in about 1/100th the volume. I should have kept my mouth shut about that - it's even more likely 1/1000th, and each copy was used by n users.\ OTOH, I think they were developed by 1/100th the staff too. ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 08:39:35 +0100 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <35AEFFB7.6D61BEB9@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35a74069.9339346@news.innet.be> <35A4DB8A.41C6@ulcc.ac.uk> <35A5D150.713D57CA@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <561.497T2270T6775279@sky.bus.com> <35b1fd62.7482199@news.innet.be> <35AB89FE.17C20BDF@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35b577d1.11727119@news.innet.be> <35AD1511.47E8E4B8@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35afa644.1968654@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 900662138 nnrp-01:27255 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 13 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news2.ais.net!jamie!ais.net!btnet-peer!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Luc Van der Veken wrote: > Ahhh- you want *printed* docs, and preferrably lots of them ;) Well, I don't mind them being electronic if they are at the same sort of quality as the orange wall, and someone comes up with a good way of having the equivalent of six ring binders open at once... -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: ajsulliv@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA (Andrew J. Sullivan) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: 17 Jul 1998 13:06:17 -0400 Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <6oo0a9$bt6@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA> References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35b577d1.11727119@news.innet.be> <35AD1511.47E8E4B8@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35afa644.1968654@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA!not-for-mail In article <35afa644.1968654@news.innet.be>, Luc Van der Veken wrote: >Something I'm asking myself questions about is if MS's own apps >even _use_ those undocumented API calls. If an API changes, their >own apps should become broken too, shouldn't they? Or do they Well, I don't expect it's related, but my old version of Word (v. 2.0c) will not work properly under Win95. (I never actually liked Word anyway -- give me WordStar any day -- but I though it worth checking out.) A. -- ----Andrew Sullivan ---- McMaster has strange rules about e-mail. If you really want to reach me, use . At least Sprint knows what "commercial" means. ###### From: rivie@rivie.daautah.com (Roger Ivie) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: 17 Jul 1998 18:28:24 GMT Organization: XMission (801 539 0852) Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35b577d1.11727119@news.innet.be> <35AD1511.47E8E4B8@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35afa644.1968654@news.innet.be> <6oo0a9$bt6@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA> Reply-To: rivie@daa-utah.com NNTP-Posting-Host: logan50.modem.xmission.com X-Trace: news.xmission.com 900700104 21042 166.70.3.242 (17 Jul 1998 18:28:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@xmission.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jul 1998 18:28:24 GMT X-Newsreader: slrn (0.8.8.2 UNIX) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!xmission!rivie In article <6oo0a9$bt6@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA>, Andrew J. Sullivan wrote: >Well, I don't expect it's related, but my old version of Word (v. 2.0c) >will not work properly under Win95. (I never actually liked Word anyway >-- give me WordStar any day -- but I though it worth checking out.) That's interesting. I have no difficulty running Word 2.0b under Win95. -- Roger Ivie Design Analysis Associates 75 West 100 South Logan, UT 84321 mailto:rivie@daa-utah.com phoneto:(435)753-2212 ###### Message-ID: <35B07C87.5FAFE8D4@bellsouth.net> From: Max F Lang Organization: Home Computing X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.32 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35a74069.9339346@news.innet.be> <35A4DB8A.41C6@ulcc.ac.uk> <35A5D150.713D57CA@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <561.497T2270T6775279@sky.bus.com> <35b1fd62.7482199@news.innet.be> <35AB89FE.17C20BDF@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35b577d1.11727119@news.innet.be> <35AD1511.47E8E4B8@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35afa644.1968654@news.innet.be> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 48 Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 14:33:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: host-209-214-33-140.mco.bellsouth.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 10:33:30 EST Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-dc.gip.net!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net!news3.mco.bellsouth.net.POSTED!not-for-mail > The undocumented api's (I'll be honest and call them that until > they become documented) are said to be mostly there to give MS's > own apps an edge. Now I find most of their apps not to be more > performant than the competition's. This is a question I've often asked thru the years: why, if MS has all these undocumented DOS and Windows calls, why do so many of their applications run like crap? If their apps division was supposed to have a secret line into their OS division, why did Samna come out with a Windows word processor (Amipro, now WordPro) long before MS came out with the unbelievably unusable Word 1.0 (they were stll hawking DOS bases Word 5.x). And AmiPro ran much better than Word ever could. Excel, until recently, couldn't hold a candle to Lotus, even with all the supposed undocumented calls Excel made. I can guess that maybe MS Apps division was spending more time writing Mac apps to worry about Windows apps, but who knows... > > Something I'm asking myself questions about is if MS's own apps > even _use_ those undocumented API calls. If an API changes, their > own apps should become broken too, shouldn't they? Or do they > know a year in advance which exact call will get changed later? I know of one case: QuickC/Windows 1.0. It used at least one undocumented call, and will not run or even install under Windows95 or Windows NT (any version of either). QC/Win was meant to build Win 3.0 apps, and used essentially the MSC 6.0 libs. This was one of MS's better offerings, and I used this system hard until I moved to Linux/FreeBSD. It could even use MSC 7.0 libs in pure C. It was a great little system to use! -- /\/\ax |_ang, ...persuing cutting-edge research into the budding Unix guru. burgeoning field of Linux-induced insomnia! -x-x-x- Hundes ars in dine nas! ancient German curse -x-x-x- ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 17:00:54 +0100 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <35B0C6B6.133A28BB@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35a74069.9339346@news.innet.be> <35A4DB8A.41C6@ulcc.ac.uk> <35A5D150.713D57CA@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <561.497T2270T6775279@sky.bus.com> <35b1fd62.7482199@news.innet.be> <35AB89FE.17C20BDF@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35b577d1.11727119@news.innet.be> <35AD1511.47E8E4B8@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35afa644.1968654@news.innet.be> <35B07C87.5FAFE8D4@bellsouth.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 900778317 nnrp-03:24026 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 20 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!ubnnews.unisource.ch!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter.cosy.sbg.ac.at!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!btnet-peer!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Max F Lang wrote: > apps, and used essentially the MSC 6.0 libs. This was one of MS's better > offerings, and I used this system hard until I moved to Linux/FreeBSD. > It could even use MSC 7.0 libs in pure C. It was a great little system > to use! In which case I'd hate to think what you'd call one of their worse ones. ISTR that if you used the case tools to create a project in c:\fred and moved it to C:\jim it broke horribly. When I e-mailed M$ tech support to ask them how to fix this they replied basically, "oh yes, it does that." My desire to do something horrible to them with a bulldozer, five pounds of prunes, and a roll of gaffer tape dates from that e-mail. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 23:12:24 GMT Organization: . Lines: 35 Message-ID: <35b26b1a.154390@news.innet.be> References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35a74069.9339346@news.innet.be> <35A4DB8A.41C6@ulcc.ac.uk> <35A5D150.713D57CA@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <561.497T2270T6775279@sky.bus.com> <35b1fd62.7482199@news.innet.be> <35AB89FE.17C20BDF@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35b577d1.11727119@news.innet.be> <35AD1511.47E8E4B8@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35afa644.1968654@news.innet.be> <35B07C87.5FAFE8D4@bellsouth.net> <35B0C6B6.133A28BB@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: uu194-7-99-34.unknown.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail Also sprach Robert Billing on Sat, 18 Jul 1998 17:00:54 +0100 to alt.folklore.computers: > Max F Lang wrote: > > > apps, and used essentially the MSC 6.0 libs. This was one of MS's better > > offerings, and I used this system hard until I moved to Linux/FreeBSD. > > It could even use MSC 7.0 libs in pure C. It was a great little system > > to use! > > In which case I'd hate to think what you'd call one of their worse > ones. ISTR that if you used the case tools to create a project in > c:\fred and moved it to C:\jim it broke horribly. When I e-mailed M$ > tech support to ask them how to fix this they replied basically, "oh > yes, it does that." My desire to do something horrible to them with a > bulldozer, five pounds of prunes, and a roll of gaffer tape dates from > that e-mail. That's one of the points where they suck, indeed. Even in VC++ 5.0 and VB 5 it's still not always a good idea to move or copy a project from one directory to another. In the .mdp and .vbp files they sometimes put absolute paths to the source files instead of relative ones, with possible nasty consequences (concrete: especially with big projects where you added files after the initial session, if you make a copy of a project as a backup before you try some changes you're not certain about that you'll want to keep them, don't change the copy but continue working in the original. Otherwise you might find out that some files of the original have changed while you were working in the copy). That they don't _always_ do that makes it even worse: you expect it to work because it did the last time, and... ###### From: Mike Swaim Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35a74069.9339346@news.innet.be> <35A4DB8A.41C6@ulcc.ac.uk> <35A5D150.713D57CA@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <561.497T2270T6775279@sky.bus.com> <35b1fd62.7482199@news.innet.be> <35AB89FE.17C20BDF@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35b577d1.11727119@news.innet.be> <35AD1511.47E8E4B8@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35afa644.1968654@news.innet.be> User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980226 (UNIX) (FreeBSD/2.2.6-RELEASE (i386)) Lines: 28 Message-ID: <33Ls1.162$K4.286764@news.giganews.com> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 17:24:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.127.0.132 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:24:15 CDT Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed1.news.luth.se!luth.se!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!newsfeed.internetmci.com!207.207.0.26!nntp.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Luc Van der Veken wrote: : The undocumented api's (I'll be honest and call them that until : they become documented) are said to be mostly there to give MS's : own apps an edge. Now I find most of their apps not to be more : performant than the competition's. I don't think so. Because Windows is implemented as libraries, the DLLs have to export functions that should be internal to the OS. In most cases you really shouldn't be messing with them, and doing so would bugger up the OS. A few of them do useful and are reasonably safe. : Something I'm asking myself questions about is if MS's own apps : even _use_ those undocumented API calls. I know that some versions of Excel have imported internal OS functions. You could tell by examining the EXE. (You can do the same thing with Win95/8 and NT's QuickView.) : If an API changes, their : own apps should become broken too, shouldn't they? Or do they : know a year in advance which exact call will get changed later? That's one of the reasons why WinNT and OS/2 run 16 bit Windows for 16 bit apps, rather than trying to translate things to 32 bit calls, and why there's so much 16 bit code in Win95/8. -- Mike Swaim, Avatar of Chaos: Disclaimer:I sometimes lie. Home: swaim@c-com.net Alum: swaim@rice.edu Quote: "Boingie"^4 Y,W&D ###### From: Tom Seddon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 00:32:52 +0100 Organization: None whatsoever Message-ID: References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35a74069.9339346@news.innet.be> <35A4DB8A.41C6@ulcc.ac.uk> <35A5D150.713D57CA@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <561.497T2270T6775279@sky.bus.com> <35b1fd62.7482199@news.innet.be> <35AB89FE.17C20BDF@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35b577d1.11727119@news.innet.be> <35AD1511.47E8E4B8@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35afa644.1968654@news.innet.be> <35B07C87.5FAFE8D4@bellsouth.net> <35B0C6B6.133A28BB@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: sunholme.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: sunholme.demon.co.uk:193.237.138.67 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 901213555 nnrp-05:24230 NO-IDENT sunholme.demon.co.uk:193.237.138.67 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike (32) Version 3.05 Lines: 12 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!sunholme.demon.co.uk!tom Robert Billing wrote this on Sat, 18 Jul 1998: >c:\fred and moved it to C:\jim it broke horribly. When I e-mailed M$ ^^^^ ^^^ Just out of interest... does anybody else use these two names as foo/bar/etc style placeholders? I have never, ever seen anybody use these until I read this today. Bonus points to those who can give the fourth name in the series. (That is, assuming you use those names for the reasons I do.) --Tom ###### From: tjat2@club.eng.cam.ac.uk (T.J.A. Thurman) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: filename separator change in CP/M and MS-DOS Date: 23 Jul 1998 18:09:52 +0100 Organization: University of Cambridge, England Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <6nr6e6$nlr$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <35a74069.9339346@news.innet.be> <35A4DB8A.41C6@ulcc.ac.uk> <35A5D150.713D57CA@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <561.497T2270T6775279@sky.bus.com> <35b1fd62.7482199@news.innet.be> <35AB89FE.17C20BDF@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35b577d1.11727119@news.innet.be> <35AD1511.47E8E4B8@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35afa644.1968654@news.innet.be> <35B07C87.5FAFE8D4@bellsouth.net> <35B0C6B6.133A28BB@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: club.eng.cam.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!server5.netnews.ja.net!server3.netnews.ja.net!server1.netnews.ja.net!pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk!not-for-mail Tom Seddon writes: > Robert Billing wrote this on Sat, 18 Jul > 1998: > >c:\fred and moved it to C:\jim it broke horribly. When I e-mailed M$ > ^^^^ ^^^ > Just out of interest... does anybody else use these two names as > foo/bar/etc style placeholders? I have never, ever seen anybody use > these until I read this today. I often use fred, jim, charlie. > Bonus points to those who can give the fourth name in the series. (That > is, assuming you use those names for the reasons I do.) Don't think I've ever got to 4, though. Hang on, weren't FRED, JIM, and SHEILA something magic in the BBC Micro, and the Master series added some more? Was that it? Thomas -- Thomas Thurman, Sidney Sussex College, | What does the Lord require of you? Cambridge. CB2 3HU | tjat2@cam.ac.uk | Act justly, love mercy, ___ http://www.sid.cam.ac.uk/~tjat2/ __| walk humbly with him. Micah 6:8