Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!fci-se!fci!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!howland.erols.net!news1.ispnews.com!news11.ispnews.com!not-for-mail From: samurai@memes.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Question about architecture Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 04:10:16 GMT Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com Lines: 5 Message-ID: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: r42.memes.com X-Trace: news2.ispnews.com 898661679 29931 204.201.42.59 (24 Jun 1998 04:14:39 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jun 1998 04:14:39 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 I recently bout a motherboard it was a Gigabyte 686 BX/ATX, I bought the board more for the fact that it would support a 400mhz processor, than anything else. Now what does the ATX do, or stand for, and what usefulness will I recieve from USB ports, and how do I use them, if I need them at all, (the board was a steal, at $121.00) ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!torn!nott!cunews!freenet-news.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 24 Jun 1998 11:37:57 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 11 Message-ID: <6mqoel$hbe@freenet-news.carleton.ca> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet3.carleton.ca X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet3.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) (samurai@memes.com) writes: > I recently bout a motherboard it was a Gigabyte 686 BX/ATX, I bought > the board more for the fact that it would support a 400mhz processor, > than anything else. Now what does the ATX do, or stand for, and what > usefulness will I recieve from USB ports, and how do I use them, if I > need them at all, (the board was a steal, at $121.00) That's what 6 minutes of CPU time cost at the Ottawa service bureau SDL when it was running the 360/85. In other words, $1200/hr, plus core storage and I/O charges. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!news.ultranet.com!not-for-mail From: "dave porter" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 24 Jun 1998 13:48:17 GMT Organization: none of the above Lines: 36 Message-ID: <01bd9f76$b008b580$0ba17392@glastonbury> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 146.115.161.11 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 24 Jun 1998 13:48:17 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 ATX doesn't 'do' anything, it's a shape - the shape of the motherboard. Also seems to mean that the rear-panel sockets are on a bracket attached to the board rather than attached to the case, reducing need for wiring. If you're planning to put this in a case you need an ATX case. USB is 'universal serial bus'. It's really not much used yet but it will be the coming thing for mid- and low-speed preiperhals: keyboard, mice, monitors, speakers, scanners, digital cameras, etc. It's an improvement over today's serial ports because it's a bus (rather than needing a separate port per external device), you can cable things together (rather than having separate wires for monitor/ keyboard/mouse/etc to the system box), and it's faster. To use USB you need (a) USB devices to connect to (b) USB drivers to drive them. Expect USB usage to take off with Windows 98, which has USB support integrated into the base OS (with Win95 it showed up in the OSR2 version and with some add-on software). Whatever you may think of Windows, it does drive sales volumes. dave -- For email, please remove the 'w' from my address. Sorry. samurai@memes.com wrote in article <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com>... > I recently bout a motherboard it was a Gigabyte 686 BX/ATX, I bought > the board more for the fact that it would support a 400mhz processor, > than anything else. Now what does the ATX do, or stand for, and what > usefulness will I recieve from USB ports, and how do I use them, if I > need them at all, (the board was a steal, at $121.00) > ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed1.news.luth.se!luth.se!erix.ericsson.se!fci-se!fci!masternews.telia.net!news-nyc.telia.net!feeder.qis.net!island.idirect.com!news.uunet.ca!atbowler From: atbowler@thinkage.on.ca (Alan Bowler) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 24 Jun 1998 17:17:44 GMT Organization: Thinkage Ltd. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <6mrcbo$oa9$1@nntp3.uunet.ca> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <6mqoel$hbe@freenet-news.carleton.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.102.11.4 In article <6mqoel$hbe@freenet-news.carleton.ca> ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) writes: > > (samurai@memes.com) writes: >> I recently bout a motherboard it was a Gigabyte 686 BX/ATX, I bought >> the board more for the fact that it would support a 400mhz processor, >> than anything else. Now what does the ATX do, or stand for, and what >> usefulness will I recieve from USB ports, and how do I use them, if I >> need them at all, (the board was a steal, at $121.00) > > That's what 6 minutes of CPU time cost at the Ottawa service bureau > SDL when it was running the 360/85. In other words, $1200/hr, plus > core storage and I/O charges. And the was only about the speed of a slow 386. But then it only had OS/360 to steal cycles away from useful computing, OS/360 was consider a pig in its day for the amount of useful CPU it consumed as overhead. Modern operating systems are have much improved :-) They have managed to increase overhead so much, so that the amount left over for useful calculations is about the same as was available on the /85. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!fci-se!fci!masternews.telia.net!news-nyc.telia.net!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!news.ultranet.com!not-for-mail From: "dave porter" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 24 Jun 1998 18:21:56 GMT Organization: none of the above Lines: 34 Message-ID: <01bd9f9c$ed0934c0$0ba17392@glastonbury> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <01bd9f76$b008b580$0ba17392@glastonbury> <35944ba5.3256734@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: 146.115.161.11 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 24 Jun 1998 18:21:56 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 There is no requirement that I know of for ATX to have USB, but (a) Microsoft publishes standards for PC design which manufacturers are very interested in adhering to so they can stick a "designed for Windows 9X" sticker on the box, and the "PC98" level of spec says USB is mandatory. Dunno what "PC97" said, I can't find a copy to hand. [Aside: I'm in favour of Microsoft's work here. They seem to be managing to get people to stop building new systems based on old crap like the ISA bus etc] (b) Current Intel chipsets seem to come with USB support as standard dave -- For email, please remove the 'w' from my address. Sorry. Luc Van der Veken wrote in article <35944ba5.3256734@news.innet.be>... [snip] > > Well fsck... > Do all ATX motherboards have an USB controller installed? > I just pressed WinKey/Break and found out that mine is "working > properly" - I didn't even know I had one (having no usb > pheripherals I didn't look for it, and I didn't read anything > about it in the MB's documentation when I bought & installed it). > > ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news.cs.utwente.nl!newshunter.cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!EU.net!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 19:04:03 GMT Organization: . Lines: 30 Message-ID: <35944ba5.3256734@news.innet.be> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <01bd9f76$b008b580$0ba17392@glastonbury> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-231-17.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes "dave porter" told us > ATX doesn't 'do' anything, it's a shape - the shape > of the motherboard. Also seems to mean that the rear-panel > sockets are on a bracket attached to the board rather than > attached to the case, reducing need for wiring. > > If you're planning to put this in a case you need an > ATX case. And an ATX power supply: the connectors are different, and it's switched on/off by the motherboard rather than directly by the power switch (which becomes a pulse switch instead of a toggle). > USB is 'universal serial bus'. It's really not much > used yet but it will be the coming thing for mid- and > low-speed preiperhals: keyboard, mice, monitors, speakers, > scanners, digital cameras, etc. It's an improvement > over today's serial ports because it's a bus (rather than > needing a separate port per external device), you can cable > things together (rather than having separate wires for monitor/ > keyboard/mouse/etc to the system box), and it's faster. Well fsck... Do all ATX motherboards have an USB controller installed? I just pressed WinKey/Break and found out that mine is "working properly" - I didn't even know I had one (having no usb pheripherals I didn't look for it, and I didn't read anything about it in the MB's documentation when I bought & installed it). ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.skynet.be!newscore.univie.ac.at!btnet-peer!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!greenaum.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: sam@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk (Sam.) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 23:03:57 GMT Organization: Nope Message-ID: <359581e8.1839897@158.152.254.65> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <01bd9f76$b008b580$0ba17392@glastonbury> <35944ba5.3256734@news.innet.be> Reply-To: sam@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk NNTP-Posting-Host: greenaum.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: greenaum.demon.co.uk:194.222.71.189 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 898729451 nnrp-01:27131 NO-IDENT greenaum.demon.co.uk:194.222.71.189 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 19:04:03 GMT, lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) wrote: >And an ATX power supply: the connectors are different, and it's >switched on/off by the motherboard rather than directly by the >power switch (which becomes a pulse switch instead of a toggle). So how do you turn it *OFF*? Like, really off. -------------------------------------------------------------------- I dunno about this infinite number of monleys being able to type the collected works of Shakespeare. Just to get a single Shakespeare paragraph correct would require a whole lot of monkeys. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.latrobe.edu.au!lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au!cchd From: cchd@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 25 Jun 1998 03:31:47 GMT Organization: La Trobe University Lines: 13 Message-ID: <6msgb3$lli$1@news.latrobe.edu.au> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <01bd9f76$b008b580$0ba17392@glastonbury> <35944ba5.3256734@news.innet.be> <359581e8.1839897@158.152.254.65> NNTP-Posting-Host: lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Sam. (sam@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk) wrote: : >And an ATX power supply: the connectors are different, and it's : >switched on/off by the motherboard rather than directly by the : >power switch (which becomes a pulse switch instead of a toggle). : So how do you turn it *OFF*? Like, really off. Pull the cord out of the wall? :-) -- Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer to be played Melbourne Australia 3083 | in the air, the sky would be green" ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!198.60.22.3!xmission!not-for-mail From: skb@xmission.removethis.com (Scott Brown) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 04:03:00 GMT Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0852) Lines: 32 Message-ID: <3591c978.545281254@news.xmission.com> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <01bd9f76$b008b580$0ba17392@glastonbury> <35944ba5.3256734@news.innet.be> <359581e8.1839897@158.152.254.65> NNTP-Posting-Host: slc159h.modem.xmission.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 23:03:57 GMT, sam@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk (Sam.) wrote: >On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 19:04:03 GMT, lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) >wrote: > >>And an ATX power supply: the connectors are different, and it's >>switched on/off by the motherboard rather than directly by the >>power switch (which becomes a pulse switch instead of a toggle). > >So how do you turn it *OFF*? Like, really off. You could always yank the plug out of the wall. ATX mainboards don't get continuous power. ATX power supplies are soft-switched -- that is, you have a pushbutton on the front panel that connects to the p/s to manually turn the thing on and off. One of the new wires to the motherboard allows the system to signal the p/s to power down under software control[1]. But as far as I understand it, once it's off, it's off for good until somebody punches the power button[2]. -Scott [1] The Micron Millenia we got at work would power themselves down as the last step in the Win95 shutdown process. Which was really annoying when you just meant to reboot the machine. [2] You can imagine what this bodes for UPS-less server boxes that are left unattended for long periods of time. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <35944ba5.3256734@news.innet.be> <359581e8.1839897@158.152.254.65> <6msgb3$lli$1@news.latrobe.edu.au> Organization: Wizvax Communications, Troy, NY. USA From: multics@wizvax.wizvax.net (Richard Shetron) NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.1 Message-ID: <359251aa.0@news.wizvax.net> Date: 25 Jun 1998 09:33:30 -0500 X-Trace: 25 Jun 1998 09:33:30 -0500, 199.181.141.1 Lines: 13 Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.wizvax.net!news.wizvax.net!wizvax.wizvax.net!multics In article <6msgb3$lli$1@news.latrobe.edu.au>, Huw Davies wrote: >Sam. (sam@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk) wrote: >: >And an ATX power supply: the connectors are different, and it's >: >switched on/off by the motherboard rather than directly by the >: >power switch (which becomes a pulse switch instead of a toggle). > >: So how do you turn it *OFF*? Like, really off. > >Pull the cord out of the wall? :-) The ATX ps we have has a standard rocker 0/1 switch on the ps itself. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!iol!iol.ie!not-for-mail From: spalding@iol.ie (Nick Spalding) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:59:59 +0100 Organization: Ireland On-Line Lines: 15 Message-ID: <35971db8.52709435@news.iol.ie> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <01bd9f76$b008b580$0ba17392@glastonbury> <35944ba5.3256734@news.innet.be> <359581e8.1839897@158.152.254.65> <6msgb3$lli$1@news.latrobe.edu.au> Reply-To: spalding@iol.ie NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-218.dublin.iol.ie Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 Huw Davies wrote: > Pull the cord out of the wall? :-) I encountered a system once, around 1975, where this was the usual practice. I don't remember the name of it but it was about the same size and shape as a DG Nova (I was only a visitor). Its only form of bulk input was a teletype paper tape reader. It ran Fortran which took about an hour to load but it did have core memory and it did have power-fail restart. If you turned it off at the front panel you had to reload, if you pulled the plug on it it happily restarted. The front panel switch was taped over with dire warnings as to what would happen to anyone who meddled with it. -- Nick Spalding ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!fci-se!fci!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!news.ultranet.com!not-for-mail From: "dave porter" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 25 Jun 1998 13:47:11 GMT Organization: none of the above Lines: 53 Message-ID: <01bda03f$b705b3f0$0ba17392@glastonbury> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <01bd9f76$b008b580$0ba17392@glastonbury> <35944ba5.3256734@news.innet.be> <359581e8.1839897@158.152.254.65> <3591c978.545281254@news.xmission.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 146.115.161.11 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 25 Jun 1998 13:47:11 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 With respect to: > [2] You can imagine what this bodes for UPS-less server boxes that are > left unattended for long periods of time. The Micron machines I have here (4 different models in my office) all have BIOS options with respect to what-to-do when the external power is restored. The machine can: 1) Always stay off 2) Always turn on 3) Return to previous state dave -- For email, please remove the 'w' from my address. Sorry. Scott Brown wrote in article <3591c978.545281254@news.xmission.com>... > On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 23:03:57 GMT, > sam@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk (Sam.) wrote: > > >On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 19:04:03 GMT, lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) > >wrote: > > > >>And an ATX power supply: the connectors are different, and it's > >>switched on/off by the motherboard rather than directly by the > >>power switch (which becomes a pulse switch instead of a toggle). > > > >So how do you turn it *OFF*? Like, really off. > > You could always yank the plug out of the wall. > > ATX mainboards don't get continuous power. ATX power supplies are > soft-switched -- that is, you have a pushbutton on the front panel > that connects to the p/s to manually turn the thing on and off. > > One of the new wires to the motherboard allows the system to signal > the p/s to power down under software control[1]. But as far as I > understand it, once it's off, it's off for good until somebody punches > the power button[2]. > > -Scott > > > > [1] The Micron Millenia we got at work would power themselves down as > the last step in the Win95 shutdown process. Which was really > annoying when you just meant to reboot the machine. > [2] You can imagine what this bodes for UPS-less server boxes that are > left unattended for long periods of time. > ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!naxos!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!peer.news-uk.wisper.net!peer.news-uk.wisper.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!mfmail!mww From: mww@microfocus.com (Michael Wojcik) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 25 Jun 1998 15:46:59 GMT Organization: Micro Focus Inc. Lines: 47 Message-ID: <6mtrdj$58r@hyperion.mfltd.co.uk> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <01bd9f76$b008b580$0ba17392@glastonbury> <35944ba5.3256734@news.innet.be> <359581e8.1839897@158.152.254.65> NNTP-Posting-Host: raederle.mfltd.co.uk X-Newsreader: xrn 9.00 Originator: mww@raederle.microfocus.com In article <359581e8.1839897@158.152.254.65>, sam@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk (Sam.) writes: > On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 19:04:03 GMT, lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) > wrote: > > >And an ATX power supply: the connectors are different, and it's > >switched on/off by the motherboard rather than directly by the > >power switch (which becomes a pulse switch instead of a toggle). > > So how do you turn it *OFF*? Like, really off. There's a PTBC (Pull Thick Black Cord) switch included, though depending on the position of the machine it may be hard to get to. The first "soft" power switches I ran into were on the original NeXT machine. We had a pre-GA one where I was then working (the IBM TCS lab and porting center in Cambridge, MA), and it hung about once a day - which meant crawling under the table to yank the cord. I thought it was a stupid idea then, and I don't think it's gotten any smarter since. If designers are going to insist on having software power-down, they should still put a real switch on the power supply. (Wake On LAN and its ilk would still work if the power supply switch was on; there could be a lock of some sort if you don't want your users to be able to shut the power off.) On a somewhat related tangent, we've recently gotten some new Dell machines in, and they have an incredibly stupid case design. The power switch (soft) and reset button are on the front of the case near the drive bays, perfectly positioned to be hit accidentally. I made a mollyguard out of half of a DAT case (the first handy piece of plastic I found lying around the office) for mine; I wonder how many other Dell customers have done the same - and how many only after accidentally rebooting the machine. Michael Wojcik mww@microfocus.com AAI Development, Micro Focus Inc. Department of English, Miami University Even though there may be some misguided critics of what we're trying to do, I think we're on the wrong path. -- Reagan ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!news.trentu.ca!csess From: csess@blaze.trentu.ca (Eric S. Smith: Left-Field Marshal) Subject: Re: Question about architecture Sender: news@news.trentu.ca (News) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:58:27 GMT X-Nntp-Posting-Host: blaze.trentu.ca References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <01bd9f76$b008b580$0ba17392@glastonbury> <35944ba5.3256734@news.innet.be> <359581e8.1839897@158.152.254.65> Organization: Trent University, Peterborough Canada Lines: 12 In article <359581e8.1839897@158.152.254.65>, Sam. wrote: >On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 19:04:03 GMT, lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) >wrote: >So how do you turn it *OFF*? Like, really off. At the power bar, of course. Though I guess that when you turned the power bar on again, you'd have to blip the switch on the case too. Progress? --Eric Smith ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!peer.news-uk.wisper.net!peer.news-uk.wisper.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!btnet-peer!btnet!newsfeed.internetmci.com!24.92.0.41!newse1.tampabay.rr.com!newse2.tampabay.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "Michael Will" <7nospam7@tampabay.rr.com> Subject: Re: Question about architecture Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <01bd9f76$b008b580$0ba17392@glastonbury> <35944ba5.3256734@news.innet.be> <359581e8.1839897@158.152.254.65> <6mtrdj$58r@hyperion.mfltd.co.uk> Message-ID: <01bda094$1e23ab60$19aa5c18@michaelw.tampabay.rr.com> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Lines: 19 Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 23:47:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: dt0d2n19.tampabay.rr.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 19:47:33 EDT Michael Wojcik wrote: > The first "soft" power switches I ran into were on the original > NeXT machine. We had a pre-GA one where I was then working (the > IBM TCS lab and porting center in Cambridge, MA), and it hung > about once a day - which meant crawling under the table to yank > the cord. Mine were on AT&T 3B2s. Good protection for a Unix system going into businesses against early PCs, the switch was the same as doing a 'shutdown', then power off. Only a few times did we have to pull the cord, and it was modular - didn't have to crawl under the table. Don't get me started on the prices of the system and the add-on cards. We were cutting edge, even had Thicknet and yellow to blue cable drop boxes. - Michael ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!peer.news-uk.wisper.net!peer.news-uk.wisper.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!agate!islay.ssl.berkeley.edu!korpela From: korpela@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 26 Jun 1998 00:07:30 GMT Organization: Cal Berkeley-- Space Sciences Lab Lines: 29 Message-ID: <6muoo2$ehb$1@agate.berkeley.edu> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <35944ba5.3256734@news.innet.be> <359581e8.1839897@158.152.254.65> <6mtrdj$58r@hyperion.mfltd.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: islay.ssl.berkeley.edu In article <6mtrdj$58r@hyperion.mfltd.co.uk>, Michael Wojcik wrote: > >The first "soft" power switches I ran into were on the original >NeXT machine. We had a pre-GA one where I was then working (the >IBM TCS lab and porting center in Cambridge, MA), and it hung >about once a day - which meant crawling under the table to yank >the cord. > >I thought it was a stupid idea then, and I don't think it's gotten >any smarter since. Actually, the Epson Equity II (ca. 1985) got it right. I think of it as a combination hard/soft switch. The power switch generated an interrupt, which would tell the computer to flush buffer contents, park the HD heads and then cut the power. It was also possible to power down from the DOS prompt (or any other program that coded the interrupt into it.) The smart thing they did was add a watchdog timer to the power switch. If the interrupt wasn't acknowledged in a certain amount of time, the power would go off anyway. Voila, no need for a separate hard switch. I don't ever recall it failing to work. Eric -- Eric Korpela | An object at rest can never be korpela@ssl.berkeley.edu | stopped. Click for home page. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail From: genew@vip.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 03:25:58 GMT Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com Lines: 31 Message-ID: <3592f446.32902203@news.vip.net> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <35944ba5.3256734@news.innet.be> <359581e8.1839897@158.152.254.65> <6mtrdj$58r@hyperion.mfltd.co.uk> <6muoo2$ehb$1@agate.berkeley.edu> Reply-To: genew@vip.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.209.212.27 X-Trace: 898831727 A01OARAUVD41BCCD1C usenet76.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 korpela@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) wrote: [snip] >Actually, the Epson Equity II (ca. 1985) got it right. >I think of it as a combination hard/soft switch. The power switch >generated an interrupt, which would tell the computer to flush buffer >contents, park the HD heads and then cut the power. It was also possible >to power down from the DOS prompt (or any other program that coded the >interrupt into it.) > >The smart thing they did was add a watchdog timer to the power switch. >If the interrupt wasn't acknowledged in a certain amount of time, the >power would go off anyway. Voila, no need for a separate hard switch. >I don't ever recall it failing to work. And if it had? You'd have been stuck with pulling the plug unless you had it on a power bar. A client of mine had a XENIX box. They decided to move it one fine day. To shut it down, someone pulled out the plug. A power glitch bit and ate the hard disk controller. They got a $900 repair bill in addition to my invoice. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko C Pronunciation Guide: y=x++; "wye equals ex plus plus semicolon" x=x++; "ex equals ex doublecross semicolon" ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!agate!albert.ssl.berkeley.edu!korpela From: korpela@albert.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 26 Jun 1998 18:42:57 GMT Organization: Cal Berkeley-- Space Sciences Lab Lines: 29 Message-ID: <6n0q3h$qsv$1@agate.berkeley.edu> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <6mtrdj$58r@hyperion.mfltd.co.uk> <6muoo2$ehb$1@agate.berkeley.edu> <3592f446.32902203@news.vip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: albert.ssl.berkeley.edu In article <3592f446.32902203@news.vip.net>, Gene Wirchenko wrote: >>The smart thing they did was add a watchdog timer to the power switch. >>If the interrupt wasn't acknowledged in a certain amount of time, the >>power would go off anyway. Voila, no need for a separate hard switch. >>I don't ever recall it failing to work. > > And if it had? You'd have been stuck with pulling the plug >unless you had it on a power bar. It never has in 12 years. That's good enough for me. If it had, there's also a hard reset switch on the front under a cover. If worse came to worse, I would have hit that then hit the power switch in fairly rapid sucession. I think that would be guaranteed to work except in the case where the power switch went bad. There isn't a machine around that you can shut off without cord yank in case of a bad (stuck closed) power switch. The point I'm trying to make is that I've had that machine for 12 years and never once has it failed to power down. I've crashed it in a lot of ways, but the (semi-soft) power switch has always worked. If there's a way to make it not work (other than a hardware failure,) I've never run across it. Eric -- Eric Korpela | An object at rest can never be korpela@ssl.berkeley.edu | stopped. Click for home page. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.xcom.net!news.ultranet.com!not-for-mail From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 21:22:22 -0400 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3594494E.4EFB8A1D@stoneweb.com> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <01bd9f76$b008b580$0ba17392@glastonbury> <35944ba5.3256734@news.innet.be> <359581e8.1839897@158.152.254.65> <6msgb3$lli$1@news.latrobe.edu.au> <35971db8.52709435@news.iol.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: zephyr.ultranet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 27 Jun 1998 01:22:33 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) Nick Spalding wrote: > > Huw Davies wrote: > > > Pull the cord out of the wall? :-) > > I encountered a system once, around 1975, where this was the usual > practice. I don't remember the name of it but it was about the same > size and shape as a DG Nova (I was only a visitor). If it was really a Nova, all that needed to be done was to put the keyswitch in the "lock" position and hide the key. The auto- restart feature only worked with the key in the "lock" setting, which coincidentally is the only position that the key can be removed in (without modifications). -- ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!naxos!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.skynet.be!newscore.univie.ac.at!btnet-peer!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!colt.net!iol!iol.ie!not-for-mail From: spalding@iol.ie (Nick Spalding) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 08:57:13 +0100 Organization: Ireland On-Line Message-ID: <3598a577.40806803@news.iol.ie> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <01bd9f76$b008b580$0ba17392@glastonbury> <35944ba5.3256734@news.innet.be> <359581e8.1839897@158.152.254.65> <6msgb3$lli$1@news.latrobe.edu.au> <35971db8.52709435@news.iol.ie> <3594494E.4EFB8A1D@stoneweb.com> Reply-To: spalding@iol.ie NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-138.dublin.iol.ie Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 Lines: 13 Carl R. Friend wrote: > If it was really a Nova, all that needed to be done was to > put the keyswitch in the "lock" position and hide the key. The auto- > restart feature only worked with the key in the "lock" setting, > which coincidentally is the only position that the key can be > removed in (without modifications). It definitely wasn't a Nova with which I was very familiar. Some deeply buried memory is saying something like Interdata, but I wouldn't swear to it. -- Nick Spalding ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.wli.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!o2robox02.optus.net.au!news.optus.net.au!news.usyd.edu.au!unsw.edu.au!khchung From: khchung@maths.unsw.EDU.AU (Kin Hoong CHUNG) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 30 Jun 1998 07:16:11 GMT Organization: University of New South Wales Lines: 15 Message-ID: <6na3br$30e$1@mirv.unsw.edu.au> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <6mtrdj$58r@hyperion.mfltd.co.uk> <6muoo2$ehb$1@agate.berkeley.edu> <3592f446.32902203@news.vip.net> <6n0q3h$qsv$1@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: alpha.maths.unsw.edu.au X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Eric J. Korpela (korpela@albert.ssl.berkeley.edu) wrote: : It never has in 12 years. That's good enough for me. If it had, : there's also a hard reset switch on the front under a cover. If worse : came to worse, I would have hit that then hit the power switch in fairly : rapid sucession. I think that would be guaranteed to work except in the : case where the power switch went bad. There isn't a machine around that : you can shut off without cord yank in case of a bad (stuck closed) power : switch. A stupid question: don't your power points have switches on them? Cheers, Kin Hoong ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 30 Jun 1998 12:46:18 GMT Organization: teabag Message-ID: <6nammq$578$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <6mtrdj$58r@hyperion.mfltd.co.uk> <6muoo2$ehb$1@agate.berkeley.edu> <3592f446.32902203@news.vip.net> <6n0q3h$qsv$1@agate.berkeley.edu> <6na3br$30e$1@mirv.unsw.edu.au> <35a5d218.8596311@news.iol.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 899214205 nnrp-04:27419 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Lines: 11 In article <35a5d218.8596311@news.iol.ie>, spalding@iol.ie (Nick Spalding) writes: > Since you ask, no most of mine don't. I just did a census in my house > and there are a total of approximately 30 sockets. 4 have switches, > and they were ones I installed myself. I don't remember the last time I saw a socket that didn't have a switch on it; I wouldn't be surprised if they're mandatory over here. Chris. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!iol!iol.ie!not-for-mail From: spalding@iol.ie (Nick Spalding) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 12:57:41 +0100 Organization: Ireland On-Line Lines: 9 Message-ID: <35a5d218.8596311@news.iol.ie> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <6mtrdj$58r@hyperion.mfltd.co.uk> <6muoo2$ehb$1@agate.berkeley.edu> <3592f446.32902203@news.vip.net> <6n0q3h$qsv$1@agate.berkeley.edu> <6na3br$30e$1@mirv.unsw.edu.au> Reply-To: spalding@iol.ie NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-644.dublin.iol.ie Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 Kin Hoong CHUNG wrote: > A stupid question: don't your power points have switches on them? Since you ask, no most of mine don't. I just did a census in my house and there are a total of approximately 30 sockets. 4 have switches, and they were ones I installed myself. -- Nick Spalding ###### From: korpela@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 30 Jun 1998 18:11:28 GMT Organization: Cal Berkeley-- Space Sciences Lab Message-ID: <6nb9og$fer$1@agate.berkeley.edu> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <3592f446.32902203@news.vip.net> <6n0q3h$qsv$1@agate.berkeley.edu> <6na3br$30e$1@mirv.unsw.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: islay.ssl.berkeley.edu Lines: 13 Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!news.freedom2surf.net!diablo.theplanet.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.nacamar.de!newsfeed.ecrc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!agate!islay.ssl.berkeley.edu!korpela In article <6na3br$30e$1@mirv.unsw.edu.au>, Kin Hoong CHUNG wrote: >A stupid question: don't your power points have switches on them? Most don't. I'd hate to have a computer on an outlet hooked to a wall switch. That would invite a lot of accidental shutdowns. Eric -- Eric Korpela | An object at rest can never be korpela@ssl.berkeley.edu | stopped. Click for home page. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: dp@world.std.com (Jeff DelPapa) Subject: Re: Question about architecture Message-ID: Organization: Chaos and Confusion References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <6na3br$30e$1@mirv.unsw.edu.au> <35a5d218.8596311@news.iol.ie> <6nammq$578$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 20:15:05 GMT Lines: 53 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!naxos!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!mr.net!data.pa.vix.com!news.gnac.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!world!dp In article <6nammq$578$3@teabag.demon.co.uk>, Chris Hedley wrote: >In article <35a5d218.8596311@news.iol.ie>, > spalding@iol.ie (Nick Spalding) writes: >> Since you ask, no most of mine don't. I just did a census in my house >> and there are a total of approximately 30 sockets. 4 have switches, >> and they were ones I installed myself. > >I don't remember the last time I saw a socket that didn't have a >switch on it; I wouldn't be surprised if they're mandatory over >here. Indeed, besides voltage, frequency, and plug style, that is another difference. US sockets do not have a switch located at the socket, if there is a switch, its on the wall, mounted near the door, with the socket intended to be used with a lamp. Some other US-UK differences. The UK locates a switch in each socket. Remotely switched sockets are rare. The UK puts a fuse in each line cord, roughly sized to protect the device, but the sockets are not fused beyond a common fuse at the entry (at least that used to be true, and was part of the reason for using a switch). The lighting, and any heavy load circuts do get a separate fuse. The heavy load circuts (like the range [cooker]) will have a switch somewhere close to, but separate from the device itself. This will be in addition to any controls on the device. US houses have a central fuse panel, with a separate fuse for each "circut" (usually the power to a single room, both lighting and outlets). The fuse is sized to protect the wiring. Heavy load devices get a separate circut operating at a higher voltage. The only way to turn off the heavy load devices if something is wrong with the switches on the device itself, is to go to the panel (in the basement in my house) and flip the breaker. (which is usually unlabeled for no good reason). Small devices (that would self destruct at power much lower than the line would trip out at) may have a fuse internal to the device (sometimes soldered in, under covers). In the US you lift the switch to turn things on, in the UK, you flip it down. The UK outlet is often a surface mount, standing "proud" of the wall. In the US, while such outlets exist, they are usually only used in industrial spaces. Household outlets are almost always fitted into the wall. Since most US houses are wood stick contstruction, [the UK is more likely to be some form of masonry, even for internal partitions] its not a challenge to make a cavity to hold the "box". ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: dp@world.std.com (Jeff DelPapa) Subject: Re: Question about architecture Message-ID: Organization: Chaos and Confusion References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <6na3br$30e$1@mirv.unsw.edu.au> <35a5d218.8596311@news.iol.ie> <6nammq$578$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 20:15:05 GMT Lines: 53 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!naxos!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!mr.net!data.pa.vix.com!news.gnac.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!world!dp In article <6nammq$578$3@teabag.demon.co.uk>, Chris Hedley wrote: >In article <35a5d218.8596311@news.iol.ie>, > spalding@iol.ie (Nick Spalding) writes: >> Since you ask, no most of mine don't. I just did a census in my house >> and there are a total of approximately 30 sockets. 4 have switches, >> and they were ones I installed myself. > >I don't remember the last time I saw a socket that didn't have a >switch on it; I wouldn't be surprised if they're mandatory over >here. Indeed, besides voltage, frequency, and plug style, that is another difference. US sockets do not have a switch located at the socket, if there is a switch, its on the wall, mounted near the door, with the socket intended to be used with a lamp. Some other US-UK differences. The UK locates a switch in each socket. Remotely switched sockets are rare. The UK puts a fuse in each line cord, roughly sized to protect the device, but the sockets are not fused beyond a common fuse at the entry (at least that used to be true, and was part of the reason for using a switch). The lighting, and any heavy load circuts do get a separate fuse. The heavy load circuts (like the range [cooker]) will have a switch somewhere close to, but separate from the device itself. This will be in addition to any controls on the device. US houses have a central fuse panel, with a separate fuse for each "circut" (usually the power to a single room, both lighting and outlets). The fuse is sized to protect the wiring. Heavy load devices get a separate circut operating at a higher voltage. The only way to turn off the heavy load devices if something is wrong with the switches on the device itself, is to go to the panel (in the basement in my house) and flip the breaker. (which is usually unlabeled for no good reason). Small devices (that would self destruct at power much lower than the line would trip out at) may have a fuse internal to the device (sometimes soldered in, under covers). In the US you lift the switch to turn things on, in the UK, you flip it down. The UK outlet is often a surface mount, standing "proud" of the wall. In the US, while such outlets exist, they are usually only used in industrial spaces. Household outlets are almost always fitted into the wall. Since most US houses are wood stick contstruction, [the UK is more likely to be some form of masonry, even for internal partitions] its not a challenge to make a cavity to hold the "box". ###### From: "S. T." Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 30 Jun 98 21:53:37 +0300 Organization: Freenet Finland Lines: 18 Message-ID: <35995E61.MD-0.198.definitely@nospam.fi> References: <6nammq$578$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin-0-17.evitech.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroDot-II/AmigaOS 0.198 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news-stkh.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed1.funet.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!learnet.freenet.hut.fi!not-for-mail Chris Hedley (cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk) wrote on 30 Jun 1998 12:46:18 GMT: > In article <35a5d218.8596311@news.iol.ie>, > spalding@iol.ie (Nick Spalding) writes: > > Since you ask, no most of mine don't. I just did a census in my house > > and there are a total of approximately 30 sockets. 4 have switches, > > and they were ones I installed myself. > > I don't remember the last time I saw a socket that didn't have a > switch on it; I wouldn't be surprised if they're mandatory over > here. I can't remember when I've seen a socket *with* a switch, modulo my extension cord. Switches aren't very useful, if you have a power switch that really cuts the AC in every device. I *would* want to see switches (whatever they're called; the things that cut the power if the drain current is something like 10 mA) instead of fuses, tho. ###### From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 23:08:28 GMT Organization: . Lines: 16 Message-ID: <359e6f20.10929901@news.innet.be> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <3592f446.32902203@news.vip.net> <6n0q3h$qsv$1@agate.berkeley.edu> <6na3br$30e$1@mirv.unsw.edu.au> <6nb9og$fer$1@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-231-60.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!bignews.mediaways.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!btnet-peer!btnet!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!warm.news.pipex.net!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail korpela@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) told us > In article <6na3br$30e$1@mirv.unsw.edu.au>, > Kin Hoong CHUNG wrote: > > >A stupid question: don't your power points have switches on them? > > Most don't. I'd hate to have a computer on an outlet hooked to a wall > switch. That would invite a lot of accidental shutdowns. I used to have a general power switch for all outlets in my office just besides the door at a little over 1m from the ground. I had it moved: it happened just too often that someone came in to ask something, and leaned against the wall next to the door during the following conversation... ###### From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 23:31:47 GMT Organization: . Lines: 13 Message-ID: <359f7390.12066182@news.innet.be> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <6na3br$30e$1@mirv.unsw.edu.au> <35a5d218.8596311@news.iol.ie> <6nammq$578$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-231-60.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!naxos!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail dp@world.std.com (Jeff DelPapa) told us > In the US you lift the switch to turn things on, in the UK, you flip > it down. There's a reason for the UK (and European in general) way: when someone does an "emergency stop", he will always tend to try to push the control away from him. For the same reason the gas handle on a motorcycle turns "open" towards you and "close" away from you, and a speedboat decelerates when you push the gas handle away from you. ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 1 Jul 1998 01:14:32 +0100 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <6nbv18$ob@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <6na3br$30e$1@mirv.unsw.edu.au> <35a5d218.8596311@news.iol.ie> <6nammq$578$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 899255256 nnrp-07:26783 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 91 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!naxos!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!btnet-peer!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Jeff DelPapa (dp@world.std.com) wrote: : >I don't remember the last time I saw a socket that didn't have a : >switch on it; I wouldn't be surprised if they're mandatory over : >here. Well, although I almost always install sockets with built-in switches, I'm pretty sure they're not _required_ by the IEE regulations (our electrical wiring code). I know that MK (large UK manufacturer of electrical bits, equivalent of Hubble, I guess) still sell 13A sockets without switches. There are times that they are useful. : Indeed, besides voltage, frequency, and plug style, that is another : difference. US sockets do not have a switch located at the socket, if : there is a switch, its on the wall, mounted near the door, with the : socket intended to be used with a lamp. We have light switches there as well, but used for fixed lights, not socket outlets. : Some other US-UK differences. : The UK locates a switch in each socket. Remotely switched sockets are : rare. : The UK puts a fuse in each line cord, roughly sized to protect the : device, but the sockets are not fused beyond a common fuse at the : entry (at least that used to be true, and was part of the reason for : using a switch). The lighting, and any heavy load circuts do get a : separate fuse. The heavy load circuts (like the range [cooker]) will : have a switch somewhere close to, but separate from the device : itself. This will be in addition to any controls on the device. : US houses have a central fuse panel, with a separate fuse for each : "circut" (usually the power to a single room, both lighting and : outlets). The fuse is sized to protect the wiring. Heavy load : devices get a separate circut operating at a higher voltage. The only : way to turn off the heavy load devices if something is wrong with the : switches on the device itself, is to go to the panel (in the : basement in my house) and flip the breaker. (which is usually : unlabeled for no good reason). Small devices (that would self : destruct at power much lower than the line would trip out at) may have : a fuse internal to the device (sometimes soldered in, under covers). The UK fusing is a little different to how you describe it... We may have _4_ fuses for a single device (!). Firstly there's the 'company fuse'. This is owned by the electic company, is sealed, and only they can replace it. It's there to protect their wiring and the meter. Then there's the fuse box (consumer unit). It contains a number of fuses or breakers. It's rather like a US style fuse box. Typically there will be 5A fuses for lighting circuts (at least 2 - upstairs and downstairs, and maybe more, for outside lights, etc). 30A fuses for ring mains (see below). 15A or 20A fuses for water heaters, etc. 30A or 45A fuses for cookers. And so on. Each circuit has its own fuse. Our power points are wired on a ring main. This is a loop of wire starting and ending at the fuse box. It uses 20A cable (2.5 mm^2) and is protected by a 30A fuse. But since there are 2 wires in parallel, then there's no real problem with the ratings. You can have as many 13A socket outlets on a ring main as you want, but there's a maximum floor area that it can cover. Most houses would have separate ring mains for up and down stairs. Sometimes there'll be a ring main for each _room_ - useful if you want to isolate a room for any reason. The 13A plugs that connect to ring mains contain a fuse. Normally 3A, 5A or 13A, although 1A, 2A, 7A, 10A are also made. This is to protect the cable, and the device for electical (as opposed to electronic) devices. Then, for electronic devices there'll be an internal fuse to protect the circuitry. This one may be time-delay - all other fuses are quick-blow. : In the US you lift the switch to turn things on, in the UK, you flip : it down. : The UK outlet is often a surface mount, standing "proud" of the wall. Not that common any more. The socket outlets (and light switches, etc) are a standard size plate that fits either a plastic surface mount box or a metal flushmount box. Normally flush mounted boxes are used, unless it's a modification to the installation (so you don't want to be channeling the wall), or something. Metalclad surface mount sockets, etc exist, and are used in workshops, etc. -tony ###### From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 01:28:30 GMT Organization: . Lines: 54 Message-ID: <35a28aba.17996951@news.innet.be> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <6nammq$578$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> <359f7390.12066182@news.innet.be> <6nbm3l$o9q$1@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-231-178.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail korpela@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) told us > This is a very debatable point. If the emergency stop is a switch, > the instict will be to flip it regardless of what its current postion > is. If the stop is a button, the instinct will be to push it. It's a question of (as I've been told when I was following a course very long ago) a reflex action like lifting your hands before your face and moving them forward to protect it, as if to "push away" the danger. According to what was said then, it's not unthinkable that someone would initially try to move a switch that was "on" in the up position, even "more on" than it already is - just because instinct doesn't apply to things that are learned. > They must run speed boats differently in Europe than in the US, > because every one I've run acellerates when you push the throttle > forward. (Or are you talking about the throttle on the handle of > an outboard motor?) Actually I never ran any, I was referring one I saw in a movie only a couple of days ago - where it was definitely pulled back to make more speed. Maybe the guy had to give the other boat with the camera the opportunity to catch up on him ;) I remember it very clearly because it reminded me of just the kind of thing we're talking about now (and btw, it was an American movie). > Most emergency stop switches on lab equipment here are big red pull > switches. (Probably to prevent accidental shutdowns). It's the > same in elevators. The stop switch is usually a pull switch. > On shop equipment there is usually a green start push-button next > to a red stop push-button. I don't think those elevators would pass the safety tests here in Belgium: regulations on such thing are _very_ strict here. I don't remember having ever seen (in a lab, in a manufacturing plant, or anywhere) an emergency stop switch that was not a push button (usually close to the start button, but easier to reach, and red color). Start switches over here sometimes are pull versions though. > As far as motorcycles go, I guess the reason for the throttle sense > is that it is easier to hold continual down pressure while driving > than it is to hold continual up pressure. The actual reason (also from that same course) is that wile stopping, your weight coming forward could cause you to push the throttle back open. The way it is now causes you to close it further. ###### From: William.Hamblen@nashville.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 1 Jul 1998 02:55:50 GMT Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com Lines: 41 Message-ID: <6nc8fm$577$2@supernews.com> References: <6nbv18$ob@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.65.180.39 X-Trace: 899261750 4TJCV727NB427CF41C usenet53.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.wli.net!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail On 1998-07-01 ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk(TonyDuell) said: >The UK fusing is a little different to how you describe it... >We may have _4_ fuses for a single device (!). >Firstly there's the 'company fuse'. This is owned by the electic >company, is sealed, and only they can replace it. It's there to >protect their wiring and the meter. >Then there's the fuse box (consumer unit). It contains a number of >fuses or breakers. It's rather like a US style fuse box. Typically >there will be 5A fuses for lighting circuts (at least 2 - upstairs >and downstairs, and maybe more, for outside lights, etc). 30A fuses >for ring mains (see below). 15A or 20A fuses for water heaters, etc. >30A or 45A fuses for cookers. And so on. Each circuit has its own >fuse. >Our power points are wired on a ring main. This is a loop of wire >starting and ending at the fuse box. It uses 20A cable (2.5 mm^2) >and is protected by a 30A fuse. But since there are 2 wires in >parallel, then there's no real problem with the ratings. You can >have as many 13A socket outlets on a ring main as you want, but >there's a maximum floor area that it can cover. Most houses would >have separate ring mains for up and down stairs. Sometimes there'll >be a ring main for each _room_ - useful if you want to isolate a >room for any reason. >The 13A plugs that connect to ring mains contain a fuse. Normally >3A, 5A or 13A, although 1A, 2A, 7A, 10A are also made. This is to >protect the cable, and the device for electical (as opposed to >electronic) devices. >Then, for electronic devices there'll be an internal fuse to >protect the circuitry. This one may be time-delay - all other fuses >are quick-blow. One important difference between a typical US dwelling and a typical UK dwelling is that the US dwelling has a larger electrical load. A 200 A, 240 V service is not unusual. Large appliances such as water heaters, stoves and air conditioners are connected to 240 V and small appliances are connected to 120 V. Circuits radiate from the circuit breaker box like the branches of a tree. Net-Tamer V 1.11 - Registered ###### From: yuska@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 03:34:59 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 67 Message-ID: <6ncap3$6e2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <6nammq$578$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> <359f7390.12066182@news.innet.be> <6nbm3l$o9q$1@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.61.79.92 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Jul 01 03:34:59 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail In article <6nbm3l$o9q$1@agate.berkeley.edu>, korpela@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) wrote: > > In article <359f7390.12066182@news.innet.be>, > Luc Van der Veken wrote: > >dp@world.std.com (Jeff DelPapa) told us > > > >> In the US you lift the switch to turn things on, in the UK, you flip > >> it down. > > > >There's a reason for the UK (and European in general) way: when > >someone does an "emergency stop", he will always tend to try to > >push the control away from him. > > This is a very debatable point. If the emergency stop is a switch, > the instict will be to flip it regardless of what its current postion > is. If the stop is a button, the instinct will be to push it. > > >For the same reason the gas handle on a motorcycle turns "open" > >towards you and "close" away from you, and a speedboat > >decelerates when you push the gas handle away from you. > > They must run speed boats differently in Europe than in the US, > because every one I've run acellerates when you push the throttle > forward. (Or are you talking about the throttle on the handle of > an outboard motor?) > > Most emergency stop switches on lab equipment here are big red pull > switches. (Probably to prevent accidental shutdowns). It's the > same in elevators. The stop switch is usually a pull switch. > On shop equipment there is usually a green start push-button next > to a red stop push-button. > > As far as motorcycles go, I guess the reason for the throttle sense > is that it is easier to hold continual down pressure while driving > than it is to hold continual up pressure. > > Eric > -- > Eric Korpela | An object at rest can never be > korpela@ssl.berkeley.edu | stopped. > Click for home page. > 1. As far as switches in the wall for lights,etc., probably the same reason that people drive on the left/right in uk/us :-) 2. Most of the emergency stop switches I have seen (computer rooms, main power breakers for machines, (US) ) are BIG push-buttons (the better to see you with) , either recessed to prevent accidental activation, or covered with a plexiglass flip-up for the same reason. Many other applications, such as weapon arming in aircraft, require lifting of a mask to turn on, but a simple push down on the mask will de-activate. 3. I think the motorcycle direction of twist is preference, but remember you are pushing against the spring for a fail-safe. 4. In powerboats (small craft) the throttles are set and hold in an on position ( although some are set for a very gradual dead-man effect), but also control the direction of travel. So, away from the driver is forward, towards the driver is reverse. Joe " if your outboard motor transmission fails, it leaves you in forward to get home, but if it fails at docking you're in trouble " Yuska -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum ###### From: khchung@maths.unsw.EDU.AU (Kin Hoong CHUNG) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 1 Jul 1998 07:25:01 GMT Organization: University of New South Wales Lines: 18 Message-ID: <6nco8d$onl$1@mirv.unsw.edu.au> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <3592f446.32902203@news.vip.net> <6n0q3h$qsv$1@agate.berkeley.edu> <6na3br$30e$1@mirv.unsw.edu.au> <6nb9og$fer$1@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: alpha.maths.unsw.edu.au X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!munnari.OZ.AU!news.usyd.edu.au!unsw.edu.au!khchung Eric J. Korpela (korpela@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu) wrote: : In article <6na3br$30e$1@mirv.unsw.edu.au>, : Kin Hoong CHUNG wrote: : >A stupid question: don't your power points have switches on them? : Most don't. I'd hate to have a computer on an outlet hooked to a wall : switch. That would invite a lot of accidental shutdowns. Not really... we still have more accidental outages from people tripping over power cords, as the power points tend to be mounted near the floor or other carefully chosen location to reduce the risk of accidental handling. At least that is what usually happens here in Australia anyway. This might explain why the switches flip down rather than up too... Cheers, Kin Hoong ###### From: khchung@maths.unsw.EDU.AU (Kin Hoong CHUNG) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 1 Jul 1998 07:25:01 GMT Organization: University of New South Wales Lines: 18 Message-ID: <6nco8d$onl$1@mirv.unsw.edu.au> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <3592f446.32902203@news.vip.net> <6n0q3h$qsv$1@agate.berkeley.edu> <6na3br$30e$1@mirv.unsw.edu.au> <6nb9og$fer$1@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: alpha.maths.unsw.edu.au X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!munnari.OZ.AU!news.usyd.edu.au!unsw.edu.au!khchung Eric J. Korpela (korpela@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu) wrote: : In article <6na3br$30e$1@mirv.unsw.edu.au>, : Kin Hoong CHUNG wrote: : >A stupid question: don't your power points have switches on them? : Most don't. I'd hate to have a computer on an outlet hooked to a wall : switch. That would invite a lot of accidental shutdowns. Not really... we still have more accidental outages from people tripping over power cords, as the power points tend to be mounted near the floor or other carefully chosen location to reduce the risk of accidental handling. At least that is what usually happens here in Australia anyway. This might explain why the switches flip down rather than up too... Cheers, Kin Hoong ###### From: "dave porter" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 1 Jul 1998 14:03:55 GMT Organization: none of the above Lines: 32 Message-ID: <01bda4f9$0b6dd040$0ba17392@glastonbury> References: <6nbv18$ob@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6nc8fm$577$2@supernews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 146.115.161.11 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 1 Jul 1998 14:03:55 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!news.ultranet.com!not-for-mail >Circuits radiate from the circuit breaker box like the > branches of a tree Or, in my case, like an impenetrable tangled hedge. There seems to be no logic to what's on a particular breaker: a couple of sockets in the kitchen, an upstairs hall light, two bedroom sockets. Anyone know why that might be? Fault tolerance maybe? If a single breaker pops then there's still power in the general area. (Which is annoying as far as I am concerned; I am much more interested in being able to "shut off power to room X" without shutting off any other power) dave -- For email, please remove the 'w' from my address. Sorry. William.Hamblen@nashville.com wrote in article <6nc8fm$577$2@supernews.com>... > One important difference between a typical US dwelling and a typical > UK dwelling is that the US dwelling has a larger electrical load. A 200 A, > 240 V service is not unusual. Large appliances such as water heaters, > stoves and air conditioners are connected to 240 V and small appliances are > connected to 120 V. Circuits radiate from the circuit breaker box like the > branches of a tree. > ###### From: "George R. Gonzalez" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 14:55:39 -0500 Organization: SkyPoint Communications, Inc. Lines: 33 Message-ID: <6ne473$gpi$1@shadow.skypoint.net> References: <6nbv18$ob@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6nc8fm$577$2@supernews.com> <01bda4f9$0b6dd040$0ba17392@glastonbury> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial088.skypoint.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!news.pagesat.net!skypoint.com!not-for-mail dave porter wrote in message <01bda4f9$0b6dd040$0ba17392@glastonbury>... >>Circuits radiate from the circuit breaker box like the >> branches of a tree > >Or, in my case, like an impenetrable tangled hedge. > >There seems to be no logic to what's on a particular >breaker: a couple of sockets in the kitchen, an >upstairs hall light, two bedroom sockets. > >Anyone know why that might be? Fault tolerance maybe? You usually see this in older houses, and ones with forced-air heating. In the older houses they were trying to conserve on wire, and they had maybe four 15-amp circuits for the whole house. So the wiring tended to run in the shortest path to hit the most outlets. Also through the years these few circuits tended to get new outlets patched into them, usually with no thought to keeping the served areas together. You often see this when a garage was tacked on-- the garage power often came from the nearest wall switch on that external wall. In slightly newer houses, wire cost was less of an imperative, but many houses with forced-air heat had air return ducts that used the full width between joists. You can't easily run wires through one of these ducts, so wire runs tended to run lengthwise through the house, in the same direction as the floor joists. This tended to lead to a bunch of long skinny circuits that included many rooms. ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 19:32:25 +0100 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <359A80B9.338BD200@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <6nbv18$ob@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6nc8fm$577$2@supernews.com> <01bda4f9$0b6dd040$0ba17392@glastonbury> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 899362270 nnrp-11:3035 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 11 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail dave porter wrote: > Anyone know why that might be? Fault tolerance maybe? More likely the results of long term, semi-random, electrical hacking. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 1 Jul 1998 19:45:06 GMT Organization: Mechanist Industries Lines: 29 Message-ID: <6ne3k2$nv05@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> References: <6nbv18$ob@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6nc8fm$577$2@supernews.com> <01bda4f9$0b6dd040$0ba17392@glastonbury> Reply-To: tph@rmi.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cs0053.eld.ford.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!jobone!dailyplanet.srl.ford.com!eccws1.dearborn.ford.com!longhorn!tph dave porter (porter@wultranet.com) wrote: : >Circuits radiate from the circuit breaker box like the : > branches of a tree : Or, in my case, like an impenetrable tangled hedge. : There seems to be no logic to what's on a particular : breaker: a couple of sockets in the kitchen, an : upstairs hall light, two bedroom sockets. : Anyone know why that might be? Fault tolerance maybe? : If a single breaker pops then there's still power in the : general area. (Which is annoying as far as I am concerned; : I am much more interested in being able to "shut off power : to room X" without shutting off any other power) Fault tolerance is what the responsible party would say after they u were done and realized what a mess they'd made. :-) I have a similar situation; last week one of the breakers tripped. I changed the kitchen lightbulb; after all, everything else seemed to be on, including the light over the stove. I couldn't understand why the light wouldn't work afterward until I noticed that the microwave oven clock had gone out as well. -- Tom Harrington --------- tph@rmii.com -------- http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph "The power of equality is not yet what it ought to be" -Red Hot Chili Peppers Cookie's Revenge: ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/tph/cookie/cookies-revenge.sit.hqx ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: dp@world.std.com (Jeff DelPapa) Subject: Re: Question about architecture Message-ID: Organization: Chaos and Confusion References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <6nammq$578$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> <6nbv18$ob@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 20:23:01 GMT Lines: 51 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.sovam.com!sovam!mtu.ru!Pollux.Teleglobe.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!world!dp In article <6nbv18$ob@p850ug1.demon.co.uk>, Tony Duell wrote: >Jeff DelPapa (dp@world.std.com) wrote: >Well, although I almost always install sockets with built-in switches, >I'm pretty sure they're not _required_ by the IEE regulations (our >electrical wiring code). I know that MK (large UK manufacturer of >electrical bits, equivalent of Hubble, I guess) still sell 13A sockets >without switches. There are times that they are useful. > > >We may have _4_ fuses for a single device (!). >Firstly there's the 'company fuse'. This is owned by the electic company, >is sealed, and only they can replace it. It's there to protect their >wiring and the meter. > >Then there's the fuse box (consumer unit). It contains a number of fuses >or breakers. It's rather like a US style fuse box. Typically there will >be 5A fuses for lighting circuts (at least 2 - upstairs and downstairs, >and maybe more, for outside lights, etc). 30A fuses for ring mains (see >below). 15A or 20A fuses for water heaters, etc. 30A or 45A fuses for >cookers. And so on. Each circuit has its own fuse. > >Our power points are wired on a ring main. This is a loop of wire >starting and ending at the fuse box. It uses 20A cable (2.5 mm^2) and is >protected by a 30A fuse. But since there are 2 wires in parallel, then >there's no real problem with the ratings. You can have as many 13A socket >outlets on a ring main as you want, but there's a maximum floor area that >it can cover. Most houses would have separate ring mains for up and down >stairs. Sometimes there'll be a ring main for each _room_ - useful if you >want to isolate a room for any reason. > All the ones I had experience with were older and smaller houses. Forgot (or didn't ever have to deal with) the company fuse, and the places were small enough (flats typically) that they only had one lighting circut, and ring main. Since they were older, I assume that explains the rarity of flush mount outlets. Both the wiring, and central heating were retrofits... (but the offices had switched, non-flush outlets, and those were pretty recent construction... Local preference perhaps) I remember the box, usually hidden in a closet, a grotty porcelan panel. Real fuses, not breakers, one light circut, the cooker, the heater (one of those combined water and household heat things, with timer etc). and a single, overloaded ring main. (which I didn't know was a ring) Another minor difference in wiring practice -- domestic lighting (except built in flourescent) uses screw base lamps, the UK, the bulbs are bayonet style. ###### From: "S. T." Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 1 Jul 98 22:31:53 +0300 Organization: Freenet Finland Lines: 14 Message-ID: <359AB8D9.MD-0.198.definitely@nospam.fi> References: <359f7390.12066182@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin-0-04.evitech.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroDot-II/AmigaOS 0.198 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-nyc.telia.net!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!news99.sunet.se!newsfeed1.funet.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!learnet.freenet.hut.fi!not-for-mail Luc Van der Veken (lucvdv@null.net) wrote on Tue, 30 Jun 1998 23:31:47 GMT: > dp@world.std.com (Jeff DelPapa) told us > > > In the US you lift the switch to turn things on, in the UK, you flip > > it down. > > There's a reason for the UK (and European in general) way: when > someone does an "emergency stop", he will always tend to try to > push the control away from him. I'd say that is incorrect. At least the light switches I remember are *all* flip-up type. Or are you telling me Finland isn't in Europe? ;) And in a flip switch there's no "away". ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 1 Jul 1998 23:15:45 +0100 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <6neceh$14q@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <6nammq$578$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> <6nbv18$ob@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 899333908 nnrp-08:12167 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 31 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Jeff DelPapa (dp@world.std.com) wrote: : preference perhaps) I remember the box, usually hidden in a closet, a : grotty porcelan panel. Real fuses, not breakers, one light circut, the That sounds _old_. More modern fuse boxes either use fuse wire on a plastic carrier with ceramic inserts, or a cartridge fuse, or a breaker. And you can get RCDs (GFIs across the Pond :-)) to put in place of the main switch (which comes between the meter and the fuses) if you want one. : Another minor difference in wiring practice -- domestic lighting : (except built in flourescent) uses screw base lamps, the UK, the bulbs : are bayonet style. Which means your lamp caps are connected to one side of the mains, and ours are isolated, and could even be earthed (although the regulations specifically list lamp caps as something that doesn't _have _ to be earthed). Most of our fluorescent lamps have bi-pin connectors on the end. But older ones had a bayonet-style lamp cap on each end (!). We do see screw-base (we call them Edison Screw) lamps over here. Not that common, but a good electrical shop would have the E14 (SES) and E27 (ES) ones in stock. There are plenty more used for special purposes, like discharge lamps (sometimes GES), small bulbs (MES and LES), etc. What we don't get are the E12 Candelabra base bulbs (I know - I've tried to get one). : -tony ###### From: fernande@internet1.net Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 2 Jul 1998 03:33:04 GMT Organization: Triton Technologies, Inc Lines: 19 Message-ID: <6nev1g$jg3$1@news1.triton.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin02.internet1.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.09.2 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!naxos!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.250.193.243!newsfeeder.triton.net!news1.triton.net!not-for-mail On 1998-06-30 dp@world.std.com(JeffDelPapa) said: >US houses have a central fuse panel, with a separate fuse for each >"circut" (usually the power to a single room, both lighting and >outlets). Only if it is laid out poorly. If the person doing it is smart the lights will be on a different circuit. That way when someone plugs an old computer into the outlet, and the breaker blows, he will still have lights to see to unplug the thing and to get to the breaker box. Chad A. Fernandez Battle Creek, MI Net-Tamer V 1.09.2 - Test Drive ###### From: fernande@internet1.net Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 2 Jul 1998 04:49:36 GMT Organization: Triton Technologies, Inc Lines: 16 Message-ID: <6nf3h0$nv7$3@news1.triton.net> References: <6neceh$14q@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin07.internet1.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.09.2 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!naxos!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.skynet.be!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.250.193.243!newsfeeder.triton.net!news1.triton.net!not-for-mail On 1998-07-01 ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk(TonyDuell) said: >breaker. And you can get RCDs (GFIs across the Pond :-)) to put in >place of the main switch (which comes between the meter and the >fuses) if you want one. GFI, stands for Ground Fault Interupt. What does RCD stand for? Chad A. Fernandez Battle Creek, MI Net-Tamer V 1.09.2 - Test Drive ###### From: fernande@internet1.net Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 2 Jul 1998 04:49:38 GMT Organization: Triton Technologies, Inc Lines: 18 Message-ID: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin07.internet1.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.09.2 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!naxos!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.250.193.243!newsfeeder.triton.net!news1.triton.net!not-for-mail On 1998-07-01 dp@world.std.com(JeffDelPapa) said: >Another minor difference in wiring practice -- domestic lighting >(except built in flourescent) uses screw base lamps, the UK, the >bulbs are bayonet style. > You mean the UK uses icandescent light bulbs that DON'T screw in?? What dos bayonet style mean exactly? Chad A. Fernandez Battle Creek, MI Net-Tamer V 1.09.2 - Test Drive ###### From: fernande@internet1.net Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 2 Jul 1998 04:49:40 GMT Organization: Triton Technologies, Inc Lines: 24 Message-ID: <6nf3h4$nv7$5@news1.triton.net> References: <01bda4f9$0b6dd040$0ba17392@glastonbury> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin07.internet1.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.09.2 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!naxos!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.skynet.be!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.clark.net!208.134.241.18!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.250.193.243!newsfeeder.triton.net!news1.triton.net!not-for-mail On 1998-07-01 porter@wultranet.com said: >Or, in my case, like an impenetrable tangled hedge. >There seems to be no logic to what's on a particular >breaker: a couple of sockets in the kitchen, an >upstairs hall light, two bedroom sockets. >Anyone know why that might be? Fault tolerance maybe? >If a single breaker pops then there's still power in the >general area. (Which is annoying as far as I am concerned; >I am much more interested in being able to "shut off power >to room X" without shutting off any other power) >dave Same here. Judging by the way this house is built in general, I would say a couple of monkeys designed the electrical system. Chad A. Fernandez Battle Creek, MI Net-Tamer V 1.09.2 - Test Drive ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 08:17:21 +0100 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <359B3401.76C2F45D@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <6nammq$578$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> <6nbv18$ob@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6neceh$14q@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 899366010 nnrp-03:4637 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 16 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.ecrc.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Tony Duell wrote: > ours are isolated, and could even be earthed (although the regulations > specifically list lamp caps as something that doesn't _have _ to be earthed). Although IIRC if the holder has exposed metalwork it has to be earthed. The only disadvantage to bayonet is that lamps which run very hot are more prone to jam in the holder and be difficult to change, which is why a lot of spotlight bulbs are ES. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 08:20:36 +0100 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <359B34C4.597D1BCF@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <6neceh$14q@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6nf3h0$nv7$3@news1.triton.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 899366019 nnrp-03:4637 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 15 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.pop.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail fernande@internet1.net wrote: > GFI, stands for Ground Fault Interupt. What does RCD stand for? Residual current detector? Basically it uses a triple wound transformer, one winding in the live and one in the neutral. If the currents in both are equal there is no output from the third. However if there is a leak to earth on the downstream side, the L & N currents are unequal, the third winding produces output, and the device trips. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 08:31:59 +0100 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <359B376F.798603F2@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 899366025 nnrp-03:4637 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 29 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.pop.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail fernande@internet1.net wrote: > You mean the UK uses icandescent light bulbs that DON'T screw in?? What dos > bayonet style mean exactly? Exactly. The base of the lamp is a plain brass cylinder with two small pins on opposite sides, and two contacts on the end of the cylinder. The pins engage with two L-shaped slots in the holder, such that inserting the lamp and turning about 20 degrees clockwise engages the lamp in the holder. _______________ __________ | | |D | | |____ o | __ | | | | | |D | C_| _______________| |__________ Lamp base Contacts Lamp Holder on base -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: "B.A.L.T.Y.N." Subject: Re: Question about architecture In-Reply-To: <6nf3h0$nv7$3@news1.triton.net> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: irix.bris.ac.uk Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Sender: usenet@fsa.bris.ac.uk (Usenet) Organization: University of Bristol, England References: <6neceh$14q@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6nf3h0$nv7$3@news1.triton.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:39:13 GMT Lines: 46 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!server5.netnews.ja.net!bris.ac.uk!irix.bris.ac.uk!wb6823 On 2 Jul 1998 fernande@internet1.net wrote: > > > On 1998-07-01 ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk(TonyDuell) said: > >breaker. And you can get RCDs (GFIs across the Pond :-)) to put in > >place of the main switch (which comes between the meter and the > >fuses) if you want one. > > GFI, stands for Ground Fault Interupt. What does RCD stand for? Residual Current Device. Can't remember how they work, but they are very clever. As for bayonet fittings; where the screw would be on an Edison, it is smooth, save for two diametrically opposed pins, about 5mm long, protruding from the base. The holder has two grooves, which theses two pins slot into: XXXXXXXXX X XXXXXXXXX X XXXXXXXXX X XXXX XXX X XXXX XXX X XXXX X XXXXXXXXXXXX You push the pins down, twist and release; hey presto. On some holders, the insertion groove is sloped, so the downwards force needed is less. When you are putting one in, you appreciate just how strong the glass structure is, considering it is wafer thin. ###### From: Baron Von Myles Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 2 Jul 1998 11:42:28 GMT Organization: Edinburgh University Lines: 17 Message-ID: <6nfrn4$6hg@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <359B376F.798603F2@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: holyrood.ed.ac.uk X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #2 (NOV) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!newsfeed.ed.ac.uk!news Robert Billing writes: >fernande@internet1.net wrote: >> You mean the UK uses icandescent light bulbs that DON'T screw in?? What dos >> bayonet style mean exactly? [Piccy and description of bayonet fitting snipped.] As a further example - think BNC connector. Andy -- Valid email address is: root@localhost where root -> ajmy and localhost -> holyrood.ed.ac.uk -- HTML mail and news - just say ... ###### From: graen@plains.NoDak.edu (Matthew D. Graen) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 2 Jul 1998 14:21:13 GMT Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computing Network Lines: 16 Message-ID: <6ng50p$103a$1@node2.nodak.edu> References: <01bda4f9$0b6dd040$0ba17392@glastonbury> <6nf3h4$nv7$5@news1.triton.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: plains.nodak.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!192.220.250.21!netnews1.nw.verio.net!netnews.nwnet.net!news.nodak.edu!plains.NoDak.edu!graen : On 1998-07-01 porter@wultranet.com said: : >Or, in my case, like an impenetrable tangled hedge. : >There seems to be no logic to what's on a particular : >breaker: a couple of sockets in the kitchen, an : >upstairs hall light, two bedroom sockets. : >Anyone know why that might be? Fault tolerance maybe? : >If a single breaker pops then there's still power in the : >general area. (Which is annoying as far as I am concerned; : >I am much more interested in being able to "shut off power : >to room X" without shutting off any other power) : >dave : Same here. Judging by the way this house is built in general, I would say a : couple of monkeys designed the electrical system. Do your lights blink out Shakespeare in Morse code? ###### From: "dave porter" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 2 Jul 1998 15:45:31 GMT Organization: none of the above Lines: 25 Message-ID: <01bda5d0$678baeb0$0ba17392@glastonbury> References: <359f7390.12066182@news.innet.be> <359AB8D9.MD-0.198.definitely@nospam.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: 146.115.161.11 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 2 Jul 1998 15:45:31 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.xcom.net!news.ultranet.com!not-for-mail Depends how tall you are and how high the switch is mounted on the wall. dave -- For email, please remove the 'w' from my address. Sorry. S. T. wrote in article <359AB8D9.MD-0.198.definitely@nospam.fi>... > Luc Van der Veken (lucvdv@null.net) wrote on Tue, 30 Jun 1998 23:31:47 GMT: > > > dp@world.std.com (Jeff DelPapa) told us > > > > > In the US you lift the switch to turn things on, in the UK, you flip > > > it down. > > > > There's a reason for the UK (and European in general) way: when > > someone does an "emergency stop", he will always tend to try to > > push the control away from him. > > I'd say that is incorrect. At least the light switches I remember are > *all* flip-up type. Or are you telling me Finland isn't in Europe? ;) > And in a flip switch there's no "away". > ###### Date: 02 Jul 98 16:56:02 -0800 From: "Charlie Gibbs" Subject: Re: Question about architecture References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <6ngopg$ju@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <868.487T123T10163336@sky.bus.com> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Lines: 24 X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) NNTP-Posting-Host: news.skybus.com Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!ubnnews.unisource.ch!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newsfeed.mad.ibernet.es!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.229.87.25!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!204.244.4.2!news.westel.com!news.skybus.com!204.244.247.111 In article <6ngopg$ju@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: >fernande@internet1.net wrote: > >: You mean the UK uses icandescent light bulbs that DON'T screw in?? > >Correct. We do have screw-in bulbs in some special light fittings, but >they're not the common ones > >: What does bayonet style mean exactly? > >A bit like a BNC connector. The lamp cap has a pin on each side, and >2 contact pads (insulated from the cap) on the bottom. The lamp holder >has little slots for the pins and 2 spring-loaded contacts to touch >the pads on the bulb. You push the bulb into the socket, turn in >slightly, and it locks in place. The best example here in North America is automobile taillight bulbs. The good old 1156 and 1157 bulbs have bayonet bases. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 2 Jul 1998 20:56:06 +0100 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <6ngokm$jm@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <6neceh$14q@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6nf3h0$nv7$3@news1.triton.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 899418583 nnrp-09:12325 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 13 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news.fh-hannover.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail fernande@internet1.net wrote: : GFI, stands for Ground Fault Interupt. What does RCD stand for? RCD = Residual Current Device, I think. Also called (in older books) an RCCB - Residual Current Circuit Breaker : Chad A. Fernandez : Battle Creek, MI -tony ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 2 Jul 1998 20:58:40 +0100 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <6ngopg$ju@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 899418585 nnrp-09:12325 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 22 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news.fh-hannover.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail fernande@internet1.net wrote: : You mean the UK uses icandescent light bulbs that DON'T screw in?? What dos Correct. We do have screw-in bulbs in some special light fittings, but they're not the common ones : bayonet style mean exactly? A bit like a BNC connector. The lamp cap has a pin on each side, and 2 contact pads (insulated from the cap) on the bottom. The lamp holder has little slots for the pins and 2 spring-loaded contacts to touch the pads on the bulb. You push the bulb into the socket, turn in slightly, and it locks in place. : Chad A. Fernandez : Battle Creek, MI -tony ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 2 Jul 1998 21:00:27 +0100 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <6ngosr$k5@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <6nammq$578$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> <6nbv18$ob@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6neceh$14q@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <359B3401.76C2F45D@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 899418586 nnrp-09:12325 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 17 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.ecrc.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Robert Billing (unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk) wrote: : Tony Duell wrote: : > ours are isolated, and could even be earthed (although the regulations : > specifically list lamp caps as something that doesn't _have _ to be earthed). : Although IIRC if the holder has exposed metalwork it has to be earthed. Yes, a brass (or other metal) lampholder does have to be earthed, and it'll be fitted with an earth terminal. On the other hand, a metal light fitting with a plastic lampholder inside may be classed as double-insulated and may not need to be earthed. Confused yet? -tony ###### From: Louis RAPHAEL Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 2 Jul 1998 22:35:49 GMT Organization: Societe pour la promotion du petoncle vert Lines: 23 Message-ID: <6nh205$4eg@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca> References: <6neceh$14q@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6nf3h0$nv7$3@news1.triton.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: willy.cs.mcgill.ca User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971127 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m)) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!naxos!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!peer.news-uk.wisper.net!peer.news-uk.wisper.net!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.mcgill.ca!cs.mcgill.ca!raphael B.A.L.T.Y.N. wrote: : You push the pins down, twist and release; hey presto. On some holders, : the insertion groove is sloped, so the downwards force needed is less. : When you are putting one in, you appreciate just how strong the glass : structure is, considering it is wafer thin. Indeed... I once had a bulb lying between the wall and the back of a filing cabinet. My father opened too many drawers at once, and it tipped forward, causing the bulb to slide down, which he didn't realize. When he pushed the drawers back in, the filing cabinet didn't go back to its original position immediately... the bulb held it forward for quite some time before it broke. Glass is very strong, so long as it doesn't have a crack in it. When it /does/ break, it usually does so starting at the site of a minute imperfection. Tempered glass is stronger because the heat treatment puts the surface in /compression/, which must be overcome (along with additional tension) in order to cause the glass to break at an available microcrack/defect. At least, this is my understanding of what happens. Louis ###### From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 22:38:37 GMT Organization: . Lines: 19 Message-ID: <359fd611.2704388@news.innet.be> References: <359f7390.12066182@news.innet.be> <359AB8D9.MD-0.198.definitely@nospam.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-226-54.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail "S. T." told us > Or are you telling me Finland isn't in Europe? ;) Now, I always thought Europe ended 50 km outside of the Belgian borders. :) Sorry; I've never been to Finland (and now that I think of it, that goes for more than half the European countries) - I should at least have said "AFAIK". > And in a flip switch there's no "away". Imagine them on a horizontal or slanted control panel (like your keyboard). How would you mount them, if the habit was to mount them as "up=on" on a vertical one? I think the answer is "away from you=on" - at least that's how I think I'd do it. ###### From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 22:38:37 GMT Organization: . Lines: 61 Message-ID: <35a0da66.3813543@news.innet.be> References: <01bda4f9$0b6dd040$0ba17392@glastonbury> <6nf3h4$nv7$5@news1.triton.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-226-54.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!btnet-feed2!btnet-peer!btnet!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail fernande@internet1.net told us > On 1998-07-01 porter@wultranet.com said: > >Or, in my case, like an impenetrable tangled hedge. > >There seems to be no logic to what's on a particular > >breaker: a couple of sockets in the kitchen, an > >upstairs hall light, two bedroom sockets. > > Same here. Judging by the way this house is built in general, I would say a > couple of monkeys designed the electrical system. I live in an apartment on the second floor (how do you count that in English again, I always doubt: I'm counting like ground / first / second = three stories total now). The good side is that it's really cheap (I pay 1/2 of what you'd expect for its size). After having lived here for a few weeks, I started assuming that the owner had built it by himself in his spare time, with the materials he could get at as cheap as possible, and with interruptions of at least a couple of months in the middle of some stages. Now you mention it, monkeys could be the answer too. In my apartment, I counted no less than _five_ different brands & models of light switches that seem to come from different periods of industrial archeology (and yes, the only rooms that have no two different switches are those with only one switch, like my bathroom and my kitchen). 1/3 of my breakers are in my apartment in a small fuse box (that I had to find for myself btw, the owner "forgot" to tell me about it), the other 2/3 are at street level in a giant cabinet they share with those of the rest of the building (there is a separate meter and fuse box for each apartment inside the cabinet, luckily). When I turn off my electricity, the hall lights go out on my floor _and_ at street level, but not inbetween (right, there are _two_ timer switches, and separate pushbuttons to light the two circuits: they must have been really cheap). When the main circuit breaker for the first floor was switched off, that appeared to affect the basement along with it. When I turn off my electricity, I also turn off all door bells in the building at the same time. In my kitchen, one half (everything on one wall) gets electricity from the breakers in my apartment, the other half from downstairs. I could go on like this for an hour (I haven't even spoken about water and gas yet - from the point where it enters the basement, the water not only travels up two floors before it reaches my bathroom, but also half way around the building, to turn back then straight _through_ my apartment inside a wall, passing through the floor under a door on the way, and on the surface of another wall. How it gets to my kitchen I haven't figured out yet, but it must be a separate pipe coming up from the basement ;) ###### From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 22:38:40 GMT Organization: . Lines: 26 Message-ID: <35a1eaab.7978503@news.innet.be> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <6nammq$578$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> <6nbv18$ob@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6neceh$14q@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <359B3401.76C2F45D@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-226-54.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail Robert Billing told us > Tony Duell wrote: > > > ours are isolated, and could even be earthed (although the regulations > > specifically list lamp caps as something that doesn't _have _ to be earthed). > > Although IIRC if the holder has exposed metalwork it has to be earthed. > > The only disadvantage to bayonet is that lamps which run very hot are > more prone to jam in the holder and be difficult to change, which is why > a lot of spotlight bulbs are ES. Even _more_ prone than edisons? Ordinary lamps don't suffer from it normally, but I've had several spots that got so stuck by the time they died, that the glass broke out of the socket when I tried to remove them and I had to force the sockets out with a pair of pliers. As for GFI/RCD, if I had to translate the name from Dutch, it would either become CLS (current loss switch, from "verliesstroomschakelaar") or DS (differential switch, from "differentieelschakelaar", coming from French "interrupteur differentiel" I think). ###### From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 22:38:40 GMT Organization: . Lines: 26 Message-ID: <35a1eaab.7978503@news.innet.be> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <6nammq$578$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> <6nbv18$ob@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6neceh$14q@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <359B3401.76C2F45D@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-226-54.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail Robert Billing told us > Tony Duell wrote: > > > ours are isolated, and could even be earthed (although the regulations > > specifically list lamp caps as something that doesn't _have _ to be earthed). > > Although IIRC if the holder has exposed metalwork it has to be earthed. > > The only disadvantage to bayonet is that lamps which run very hot are > more prone to jam in the holder and be difficult to change, which is why > a lot of spotlight bulbs are ES. Even _more_ prone than edisons? Ordinary lamps don't suffer from it normally, but I've had several spots that got so stuck by the time they died, that the glass broke out of the socket when I tried to remove them and I had to force the sockets out with a pair of pliers. As for GFI/RCD, if I had to translate the name from Dutch, it would either become CLS (current loss switch, from "verliesstroomschakelaar") or DS (differential switch, from "differentieelschakelaar", coming from French "interrupteur differentiel" I think). ###### From: deke.spamblock@generous.net Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 04:10:07 GMT Organization: GenerousCity is a virtue - find romance at http://generous.net Lines: 23 Message-ID: <359c3c0a.255475354@news.bright.net> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <359B376F.798603F2@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <6nfrn4$6hg@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: paul-cas1-cs-36.dial.bright.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!naxos!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!199.0.154.208!ais.net!NewsNG.Chicago.Qual.Net!jamie!Qual.Net!news.bright.net!not-for-mail On 2 Jul 1998 11:42:28 GMT, Baron Von Myles wrote: }Robert Billing writes: }>fernande@internet1.net wrote: }>> You mean the UK uses icandescent light bulbs that DON'T screw in?? What dos }>> bayonet style mean exactly? }[Piccy and description of bayonet fitting snipped.] }As a further example - think BNC connector. Or even more relevant, the 1034/1157 bayonet-style incandescent light bulb that was universally used for turn signals in most cars for the better part of this century. Is "edison" the extra-large screw-base light bulb, or is that "mogul"? Deke ---- Nice Guys. Not Married. And they like women with curves. Sound like you? Join us at GenerousCity. Search the profiles. Talk on our Discussion list, or join us for live chat. And you *never* pay anything. ###### From: dg@ (David Given) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 12:17:57 GMT Organization: I'm organised? Wow! Message-ID: <899468277.14377.0.nnrp-04.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> References: <6neceh$14q@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6nf3h0$nv7$3@news1.triton.net> <6nh205$4eg@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: taos.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: taos.demon.co.uk:158.152.120.224 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 899468277 nnrp-04:14377 NO-IDENT taos.demon.co.uk:158.152.120.224 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Lines: 25 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!194.72.7.126!btnet-peer!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!taos.demon.co.uk!!dg In article <6nh205$4eg@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca>, Louis RAPHAEL wrote: [...] >Glass is very strong, so long as it doesn't have a crack in it. When >it /does/ break, it usually does so starting at the site of a minute >imperfection. Tempered glass is stronger because the heat treatment >puts the surface in /compression/, which must be overcome (along with >additional tension) in order to cause the glass to break at an >available microcrack/defect. At least, this is my understanding of >what happens. At school, we had tempered glass tumblers. These things were astonishing. You could drop one from table height onto a concrete floor and they would *bounce*. However, if you scratched one, then at some point in the future in would suddenly explode for no apparent reason. Fun... -- +- David Given ----------------+ | Work: dg@tao.co.uk | The breakfast of champions is the | Play: dgiven@iname.com | opposition. +- http://wiredsoc.ml.org/~dg -+ ###### From: ajsulliv@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA (Andrew J. Sullivan) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 3 Jul 1998 13:17:20 -0400 Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <6nj3n0$hb9@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA> References: <359f7390.12066182@news.innet.be> <359AB8D9.MD-0.198.definitely@nospam.fi> <359fd611.2704388@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!srv1.drenet.dnd.ca!crc-news.crc.ca!nott!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA!not-for-mail In article <359fd611.2704388@news.innet.be>, Luc Van der Veken wrote: >Imagine them on a horizontal or slanted control panel (like your >keyboard). How would you mount them, if the habit was to mount >them as "up=on" on a vertical one? >I think the answer is "away from you=on" - at least that's how I >think I'd do it. Is the light-switch convention of up=on true in Germany? I know that all my old-series A1 Volkswagens had a rocker switch for the lights, and the direction on those switches seemed fully normal to me. (Ok, granted, car switches can't be handily mapped onto building switches; but the design principle was supposed to be based on natural human behaviour. Whatever that would be.) -- Andrew Sullivan | "The plural of anecdote is not data." Ph.D. Candidate, Philosophy | -- Roger Brinner, quoted in Bruce McMaster University | Little's "Amazing Facts", _The *Solicitors billed for proof-reading.* | Globe and Mail_ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: "B.A.L.T.Y.N." Subject: Re: Question about architecture In-Reply-To: <6niils$75k$1@otis.netspace.net.au> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: irix.bris.ac.uk Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Sender: usenet@fsa.bris.ac.uk (Usenet) Organization: University of Bristol, England References: <6neceh$14q@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6nf3h0$nv7$3@news1.triton.net> <6nh205$4eg@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca> <6niils$75k$1@otis.netspace.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 14:18:37 GMT Lines: 54 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!server5.netnews.ja.net!bris.ac.uk!irix.bris.ac.uk!wb6823 On Fri, 3 Jul 1998, gerry wrote: > > Louis RAPHAEL wrote in message <6nh205$4eg@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca>... > >B.A.L.T.Y.N. wrote: > > > >: You push the pins down, twist and release; hey presto. On some holders, > >: the insertion groove is sloped, so the downwards force needed is less. > >: When you are putting one in, you appreciate just how strong the glass > >: structure is, considering it is wafer thin. > > > >Indeed... I once had a bulb lying between the wall and the back of a > >filing cabinet. My father opened too many drawers at once, and it > >tipped forward, causing the bulb to slide down, which he didn't > >realize. When he pushed the drawers back in, the filing cabinet didn't > >go back to its original position immediately... the bulb held it > >forward for quite some time before it broke. > > > >Glass is very strong, so long as it doesn't have a crack in it. When > >it /does/ break, it usually does so starting at the site of a minute > >imperfection. Tempered glass is stronger because the heat treatment > >puts the surface in /compression/, which must be overcome (along with > >additional tension) in order to cause the glass to break at an > >available microcrack/defect. At least, this is my understanding of > >what happens. > > > > Most likely correct, but I suspect it has a whole lot more to do with the > physics of the shape rather than the strength of the material. > > Cheers > Gerry > > >Louis > Being a physicist, a) I should know how a RCD works (well, not really, it's more the Engineering Dept. than Phyzz) and b) it is indeed the structure more than the material that matters in a lightbulb. It's a similar structure to the egg; very thin shell, easily broken, but can support a hen sitting on it. In very fudgy terms, the force is transferred away from the pressure point, ie, you push down the bulb to insert it, the restoring force from the glass is provided from all over the surface, rather than a small region. This makes it much stronger than it otherwise might seem. Now if anyone knows anything about quantum rolling... No, don't even bother. B.A.L.T.Y.N. ###### From: "John L. Pearlman" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 15:43:08 -0400 Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc. Lines: 31 Message-ID: <359D343B.374@tiac.net> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <359B376F.798603F2@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <6nfrn4$6hg@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> <359c3c0a.255475354@news.bright.net> <35a12d99.4404081@news.innet.be> Reply-To: jlp@tiac.net NNTP-Posting-Host: tapuach.tiac.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) CC: "John L. Pearlman" Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-feed1.tiac.net!posterchild2!news@tiac.net Luc Van der Veken wrote: > > deke.spamblock@generous.net told us > > > Is "edison" the extra-large screw-base light bulb, or is that "mogul"? > > "Edison" is the general name for a screw-type lamp socket (named > like this because it was one of over 1000 patented inventions of > a certain mr. Edison. He was also active in the record business > iirc ;) > > E-10 (a 10 mm socket) stands for Edison-10, at least that's what > I was told at school >25 years ago. > > I never heard of a "Mogul" over here: the largest Edison socket I > know of is the Goliath, but I don't remember it's exact diameter. Around here (Northeast U. S.), a mogul base is an oversized screw base, found more often than not on 3-way bulbs (it's also a bump on a ski trail). A candelabra base is an undersized screw base used most often in multi-bulb fixtures designed to hang from the ceiling. Cheers, John -- John L. Pearlman or If one man calls you a donkey, pay him no heed. If two men call you a donkey, get yourself a saddle. (ancient Rabbinic saying) ###### From: justin.frim@ablelink.org (Justin Frim) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 16:46:00 GMT Organization: Ability Online Support Network Lines: 21 Message-ID: <899489436@ablelink.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ablelink.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 03 Jul 1998 15:04:19 EDT Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!tor-nn1.netcom.ca!ntserv1!justin.frim fernande@internet1.net wrote: FE>Only if it is laid out poorly. If the person doing it is smart the lights >will be on a different circuit. That way when someone plugs an old computer >into the outlet, and the breaker blows, he will still have lights to see to >unplug the thing and to get to the breaker box. I have never seen it done like that here in Canada, although when I was in England once, I was jumping on my bed ahd hit the light which was only supported by it's twisted pair wire. The wire broke and shorted out, and the lights in the hall and my brother's bedroom also went out. Personally, I think it makes more sense to have each room (lights and power sockets) on the same branch, because other rooms aren't affected if you do something stupid in your own room, and it's not worth putting a single light on it's own 15A circuit breaker. justin.frim@ablelink.org * 1st 2.00 ~ Ability OnLine - Our Teens know how to XPRESS themselves. ###### From: justin.frim@ablelink.org (Justin Frim) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 16:49:00 GMT Organization: Ability Online Support Network Lines: 17 Message-ID: <899489437@ablelink.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ablelink.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 03 Jul 1998 15:04:22 EDT Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!tor-nn1.netcom.ca!ntserv1!justin.frim fernande@internet1.net wrote: FE>You mean the UK uses icandescent light bulbs that DON'T screw in?? What dos >bayonet style mean exactly? The base is like a cylinder, with two small posts on each side 180 degrees apart. On the bottom of the base are two contacts, and the socket has two spring loaded pins. The sides of the socket has two L shaped grooves, and the bulb is inserted so the posts go into the grooves. Once the bulb is pushed in all the way, it is rotated a few degrees and the posts lock in place in the groove, and the two spring loaded pins touch the two contacts on the bottom of the base of the bulb. justin.frim@ablelink.org * 1st 2.00 ~ Ability OnLine - Toronto Canada - (416) 650-5411 ###### From: justin.frim@ablelink.org (Justin Frim) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 16:52:00 GMT Organization: Ability Online Support Network Lines: 19 Message-ID: <899489438@ablelink.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ablelink.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 03 Jul 1998 15:04:27 EDT Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!tor-nn1.netcom.ca!ntserv1!justin.frim unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk wrote: UB>fernande@internet1.net wrote: UB>> GFI, stands for Ground Fault Interupt. What does RCD stand for? UB> Residual current detector? Basically it uses a triple wound >transformer, one winding in the live and one in the neutral. If the >currents in both are equal there is no output from the third. However if >there is a leak to earth on the downstream side, the L & N currents are >unequal, the third winding produces output, and the device trips. Isn't that the same as a GFI? If more than a few milliamps of current return on the ground instead of the neutral, it trips.... justin.frim@ablelink.org * 1st 2.00 ~ AbleLINK - Help the kids help themselves..., by modem! ###### From: justin.frim@ablelink.org (Justin Frim) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 17:44:00 GMT Organization: Ability Online Support Network Lines: 25 Message-ID: <899489445@ablelink.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ablelink.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 03 Jul 1998 15:04:31 EDT Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!tor-nn1.netcom.ca!ntserv1!justin.frim lucvdv@null.net wrote: LV>Even _more_ prone than edisons? Ordinary lamps don't suffer from >it normally, but I've had several spots that got so stuck by the >time they died, that the glass broke out of the socket when I >tried to remove them and I had to force the sockets out with a >pair of pliers. I've had spotlights that have come loose from the base, but soldering the wires back on the base and then using expoxy to glue it back on the glass has worked very well. :) BTW, I also have repaired many light bulbs... if the filament breaks in 1 spot, sometimes by putting the bulb in a little socket on a wire, turning it on, and then moving it around so the filament touches one of the wires will arc weld it back on! I had a bulb which broke 4 times, each in a diff spot! The filament looked like a tangled mess, although it still worked for many hours! Finally when it broke the fifth time, the filament shattered into tiny fragments, and that was the end of it. justin.frim@ablelink.org * 1st 2.00 ~ ###### From: justin.frim@ablelink.org (Justin Frim) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 17:48:00 GMT Organization: Ability Online Support Network Lines: 20 Message-ID: <899489446@ablelink.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ablelink.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 03 Jul 1998 15:04:35 EDT Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!tor-nn1.netcom.ca!ntserv1!justin.frim willam.hamblen@nashville.com wrote: WH>The metal shells of North American lampholders (lamp caps) are isolated >(usually by a fiber cylinder) unless something is broken. Fingers cannot >touch live surfaces while the light is screwed in. Metal lampholders >connected to grounded circuits are connected to the ground wire (required). >The metal parts of plastic or ceramic lampholders aren't exposed to prying >fingers. Although if the light is unscrewed slightly, fingers can touch the threaded part of the bulb base, which is still making contact to one of the wires in the socket. Many people have recieved electric shocks from this, although the threaded part of the bulb should be connected to the neutral and the tip on the live. justin.frim@ablelink.org * 1st 2.00 ~ ###### From: deke.spamblock@generous.net Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 18:46:31 GMT Organization: GenerousCity is a virtue - find romance at http://generous.net Lines: 34 Message-ID: <359d25c2.52435474@news.bright.net> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <359B376F.798603F2@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <6nfrn4$6hg@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> <359c3c0a.255475354@news.bright.net> <35a12d99.4404081@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: paul-cas2-cs-27.dial.bright.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!128.174.5.49!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!NewsNG.Chicago.Qual.Net!jamie!Qual.Net!news.bright.net!not-for-mail On Fri, 03 Jul 1998 19:20:26 GMT, lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) wrote: }deke.spamblock@generous.net told us }> Is "edison" the extra-large screw-base light bulb, or is that "mogul"? }"Edison" is the general name for a screw-type lamp socket (named }like this because it was one of over 1000 patented inventions of }a certain mr. Edison. He was also active in the record business }iirc ;) }E-10 (a 10 mm socket) stands for Edison-10, at least that's what }I was told at school >25 years ago. }I never heard of a "Mogul" over here: the largest Edison socket I }know of is the Goliath, but I don't remember it's exact diameter. So if the wife says "Honey, bring me a 60-watt bulb; the lamp by the bed is burned out," what is the name that specifies the US's common, ordinary screw-base lamp that's about an 25 mm in diameter? When I was working in a dime store thirty years ago, we carried light bulbs that were for screw sockets about 40 or 50 mm in diameter, it seems like, and I once saw a floor lamp that used that size. Seems to me it was a 3-way bulb, but I wouldn't bet money on it. Deke ---- Nice Guys. Not Married. And they like women with curves. Sound like you? Join us at GenerousCity. Search the profiles. Talk on our Discussion list, or join us for live chat. And you *never* pay anything. ###### From: wivey@ix.netcom.com(William H. Ivey) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 3 Jul 1998 18:48:55 GMT Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 15 Message-ID: <6nj92n$4sb@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <6ngopg$ju@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: aus-tx23-04.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 03 11:48:55 AM PDT 1998 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ix.netcom.com!news In <6ngopg$ju@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > >Correct. We do have screw-in bulbs in some special light fittings, but >they're not the common ones And in the U.S. we have bayonet based bulbs for special purposes (very useful were vibration might loosen a screw-base bulb). >: bayonet style mean exactly? > >A bit like a BNC connector. Isn't that redundant? "British Nut Connector connector" :-) -Wm ###### From: wivey@ix.netcom.com(William H. Ivey) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 3 Jul 1998 19:04:11 GMT Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 15 Message-ID: <6nj9vb$p8h@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <359B376F.798603F2@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <6nfrn4$6hg@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> <359c3c0a.255475354@news.bright.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: aus-tx23-04.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 03 12:04:11 PM PDT 1998 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!naxos!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!ix.netcom.com!news In <359c3c0a.255475354@news.bright.net> deke.spamblock@generous.net writes: > >[...] >Is "edison" the extra-large screw-base light bulb, or is that "mogul"? I believe "Edison" or "Mazda" (an Edison brand) is the term for the standard U.S. houselamp thread. "Mogul" is the larger one (about half again as wide, I think). Generally, you only see mogul bases on high current lamps (such as the ones used for photo and stage lighting, or certain specialty lamps (HP Sodium for example). My parents do have an older floor lamp which takes a mogul-based 3-way bulb: 75-125-200 watt as I recall. I suppose the larger size was to keep Darwin's step-children from putting 200W bulbs in 60W table lamps. -Wm ###### From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 19:20:26 GMT Organization: . Lines: 15 Message-ID: <35a12d99.4404081@news.innet.be> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <359B376F.798603F2@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <6nfrn4$6hg@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> <359c3c0a.255475354@news.bright.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-226-78.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!naxos!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news.cs.utwente.nl!newshunter.cosy.sbg.ac.at!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail deke.spamblock@generous.net told us > Is "edison" the extra-large screw-base light bulb, or is that "mogul"? "Edison" is the general name for a screw-type lamp socket (named like this because it was one of over 1000 patented inventions of a certain mr. Edison. He was also active in the record business iirc ;) E-10 (a 10 mm socket) stands for Edison-10, at least that's what I was told at school >25 years ago. I never heard of a "Mogul" over here: the largest Edison socket I know of is the Goliath, but I don't remember it's exact diameter. ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 21:58:46 -0400 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 19 Message-ID: <359D8C56.77A538BC@stoneweb.com> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <6ngopg$ju@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6nj92n$4sb@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <6njtb1$1kt@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: zephyr.ultranet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 4 Jul 1998 01:58:47 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!199.232.56.18!news.ultranet.com!not-for-mail Tony Duell wrote: > > I believe that BNC stands for 'Bayonet Neil-Concilman' (or some > similar spelling of the names) after the inventors. So it _doesn't_ stand for "British National Connector"? I have some heads I need to break.... How about DIN connectors? Are you going to shatter that one too? -- ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| ###### From: "gerry" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 22:22:38 +1000 Organization: A customer of Netspace Internet Lines: 19 Message-ID: <6niign$6rf$1@otis.netspace.net.au> References: <6neceh$14q@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6nf3h0$nv7$3@news1.triton.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-m4-128.melbourne.netspace.net.au X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.netspace.net.au!not-for-mail >Residual Current Device. Can't remember how they work, but they are >very clever. It was sort of explained in an earlier post, but a fair laymans explanation is that it is a core balance relay, it measures the current in the active and neutral conductors, and assumes any mismatch must be passing to earth (possible via a person). If the mismatch passes a preset limit, the device trips, cutting both active and neutral conductors. In .au RCD's trip when the mismatch exceeds either 30mA or 100mA, depending on the type of installation, as far as I remember it takes less than 200mA to pass through the heart to kill you. Cheers Gerry ###### From: "gerry" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 22:25:23 +1000 Organization: A customer of Netspace Internet Lines: 34 Message-ID: <6niils$75k$1@otis.netspace.net.au> References: <6neceh$14q@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6nf3h0$nv7$3@news1.triton.net> <6nh205$4eg@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-m4-128.melbourne.netspace.net.au X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.netspace.net.au!not-for-mail Louis RAPHAEL wrote in message <6nh205$4eg@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca>... >B.A.L.T.Y.N. wrote: > >: You push the pins down, twist and release; hey presto. On some holders, >: the insertion groove is sloped, so the downwards force needed is less. >: When you are putting one in, you appreciate just how strong the glass >: structure is, considering it is wafer thin. > >Indeed... I once had a bulb lying between the wall and the back of a >filing cabinet. My father opened too many drawers at once, and it >tipped forward, causing the bulb to slide down, which he didn't >realize. When he pushed the drawers back in, the filing cabinet didn't >go back to its original position immediately... the bulb held it >forward for quite some time before it broke. > >Glass is very strong, so long as it doesn't have a crack in it. When >it /does/ break, it usually does so starting at the site of a minute >imperfection. Tempered glass is stronger because the heat treatment >puts the surface in /compression/, which must be overcome (along with >additional tension) in order to cause the glass to break at an >available microcrack/defect. At least, this is my understanding of >what happens. > Most likely correct, but I suspect it has a whole lot more to do with the physics of the shape rather than the strength of the material. Cheers Gerry >Louis ###### From: skb@xmission.removethis.com (Scott Brown) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 22:39:57 GMT Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0852) Lines: 22 Message-ID: <359d5cc6.254151474@news.xmission.com> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <6ngopg$ju@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6nj92n$4sb@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: slc448h.modem.xmission.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!naxos!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!198.60.22.3!xmission!not-for-mail On 3 Jul 1998 18:48:55 GMT, wivey@ix.netcom.com(William H. Ivey) wrote: >In <6ngopg$ju@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) >writes: >> >>Correct. We do have screw-in bulbs in some special light fittings, but >>they're not the common ones > >And in the U.S. we have bayonet based bulbs for special purposes >(very useful were vibration might loosen a screw-base bulb). > >>: bayonet style mean exactly? >> >>A bit like a BNC connector. > >Isn't that redundant? "British Nut Connector connector" :-) -Wm I thought BNC stood for "Bayonet Navy Connector". I've also seen TNC coaxial connectors, which look a lot like BNC except for being threaded. ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 4 Jul 1998 01:32:31 +0100 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <6njt6v$1km@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <359B376F.798603F2@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <6nfrn4$6hg@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> <359c3c0a.255475354@news.bright.net> <35a12d99.4404081@news.innet.be> <359d25c2.52435474@news.bright.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 899514903 nnrp-03:11223 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 10 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail deke.spamblock@generous.net wrote: : So if the wife says "Honey, bring me a 60-watt bulb; the lamp by the bed is : burned out," what is the name that specifies the US's common, ordinary : screw-base lamp that's about an 25 mm in diameter? Either just plain ES (Edison Screw) with no other qualifier, or if you want to be precise E27 (27 mm diameter). -tony ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 4 Jul 1998 01:34:41 +0100 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <6njtb1$1kt@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <6ngopg$ju@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6nj92n$4sb@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 899514904 nnrp-03:11223 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 13 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.ecrc.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail William H. Ivey (wivey@ix.netcom.com) wrote: : >A bit like a BNC connector. : Isn't that redundant? "British Nut Connector connector" :-) -Wm I believe that BNC stands for 'Bayonet Neil-Concilman' (or some similar spelling of the names) after the inventors. There's also a TNC (Threaded...) which is screwlock, an N (Neil, alone), which is the old Thickwire ethernet connector, and a C (Concilman alone) which looks like an enlarged BNC connector. -tony ###### From: Ian Stirling <0000359D8085.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,uk.co.demon.mauve.stirling.ian Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 02:08:21 +0100 Organization: None. Message-ID: <0000359D8085.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <6ngopg$ju@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6nj92n$4sb@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <359d5cc6.254151474@news.xmission.com> X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 899514518 mail2news:7777 mail2news mail2news.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mail2News-Path: news.demon.net!post-11.mail.demon.net!post.mail.demon.net![158.152.209.66]!mauve.demon.co.uk User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971106 (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.33 (i586)) X-Note: Anti-UCE in effect, replying should work if you are not UCE'ng X-Warning0: For unsolicited commercial email, sent or causing to be sent to my email address X-Warning1: on this message, I reserve the right to levy a charge for my time and expenses X-Warning2: of up to 100 pounds sterling per message, plus legal, penalty or other costs. Lines: 34 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.maz.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Scott Brown wrote: : On 3 Jul 1998 18:48:55 GMT, wivey@ix.netcom.com(William H. Ivey) : wrote: :>In <6ngopg$ju@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) :>writes: :>> :>>Correct. We do have screw-in bulbs in some special light fittings, but :>>they're not the common ones :> :>And in the U.S. we have bayonet based bulbs for special purposes :>(very useful were vibration might loosen a screw-base bulb). :> :>>: bayonet style mean exactly? :>> :>>A bit like a BNC connector. :> :>Isn't that redundant? "British Nut Connector connector" :-) -Wm : I thought BNC stood for "Bayonet Navy Connector". I've also seen TNC : coaxial connectors, which look a lot like BNC except for being : threaded. I believe it's b neilson connector, named after something german. Aha, I've got several trees on the bed, in the form of a farnell catalog. (2200 pages) However, it doesn't explain the acronym. -- See http://www.mauve.demon.co.uk/ |Linux PDA, cheap electronics/PC bits sale. See_header,_for_UCE_policy___________|_____________________________Ian_Stirling. He who lives in a glass house should not invite he who is without sin. ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 04 Jul 1998 02:16:22 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <359f7390.12066182@news.innet.be> <359AB8D9.MD-0.198.definitely@nospam.fi> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 "S. T." writes: > Luc Van der Veken (lucvdv@null.net) wrote on Tue, 30 Jun 1998 23:31:47 GMT: > > There's a reason for the UK (and European in general) way: when > > someone does an "emergency stop", he will always tend to try to > > push the control away from him. > > I'd say that is incorrect. At least the light switches I remember are > *all* flip-up type. Or are you telling me Finland isn't in Europe? ;) > And in a flip switch there's no "away". Well here in Switzerland (and AFAIK in France) you will be even more surprised. Light switches neither flip up or down. They don't flip at all. Rather they are pressed (or punched in emergency case) into the wall for both on and off. They work similar to an biro mechanism. -- private: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ office: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ WinCE car, crashing soon on a road near you ###### From: wivey@ix.netcom.com(William H. Ivey) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 4 Jul 1998 04:54:00 GMT Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 14 Message-ID: <6nkch8$hot@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <6ngopg$ju@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6nj92n$4sb@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <6njtb1$1kt@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: aus-tx22-21.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 03 9:54:00 PM PDT 1998 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ix.netcom.com!news In <6njtb1$1kt@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: >I believe that BNC stands for 'Bayonet Neil-Concilman' (or some >similar spelling of the names) after the inventors. There's also a TNC >(Threaded...) which is screwlock, an N (Neil, alone), which is the old >Thickwire ethernet connector, and a C (Concilman alone) which looks >like an enlarged BNC connector. > >-tony The catalog I saw the British Nut Connector definition in was U.S., probably got that tag because no one here remembered what it was called other than it sounded British... -Wm ###### From: fernande@internet1.net Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 4 Jul 1998 05:17:10 GMT Organization: Triton Technologies, Inc Lines: 17 Message-ID: <6nkdsm$ie7$2@news1.triton.net> References: <6ng50p$103a$1@node2.nodak.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin18.internet1.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.09.2 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.nyu.edu!newsin.agis.net!agis!newsfeeder.triton.net!news1.triton.net!not-for-mail On 1998-07-02 graen@plains.NoDak.edu(MatthewD.Graen) said: >Do your lights blink out Shakespeare in Morse code? Yes they do :-) We have done some rewiring, so it isn't quite as bad as before. The washing machine really messes with the light above it, Though. Light bulbs didn't last very long before we started rewiring, either. Chad A. Fernandez Battle Creek, MI Net-Tamer V 1.09.2 - Test Drive ###### From: fernande@internet1.net Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 4 Jul 1998 05:17:13 GMT Organization: Triton Technologies, Inc Lines: 29 Message-ID: <6nkdsp$ie7$3@news1.triton.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin18.internet1.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.09.2 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.nyu.edu!newsin.agis.net!agis!newsfeeder.triton.net!news1.triton.net!not-for-mail On 1998-07-02 6nf3h0$nv7$3@news1.triton.net said: >As for bayonet fittings; where the screw would be on an Edison, it >is smooth, save for two diametrically opposed pins, about 5mm long, >protruding from the base. The holder has two grooves, which theses >two >XXXXXXXXX X >XXXXXXXXX X >XXXXXXXXX X >XXXX XXX X >XXXX XXX X >XXXX X >XXXXXXXXXXXX >You push the pins down, twist and release; hey presto. On some >holders, the insertion groove is sloped, so the downwards force >needed is less. When you are putting one in, you appreciate just >how strong the glass structure is, considering it is wafer thin. Oh I see, just like a lot of the lights (brake, parks, and turn signals) on cars. Chad A. Fernandez Battle Creek, MI Net-Tamer V 1.09.2 - Test Drive ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 09:28:54 +0100 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <359DE7C6.21CAEBB2@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <6nammq$578$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> <6nbv18$ob@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6neceh$14q@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <359B3401.76C2F45D@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <35a1eaab.7978503@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 899552914 nnrp-04:18793 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 14 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.nacamar.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Luc Van der Veken wrote: > Even _more_ prone than edisons? Ordinary lamps don't suffer from > it normally, but I've had several spots that got so stuck by the The problem is that the off centre contact pins dig into the solder contacts on the lamp and make a sort of dog clutch to prevent the lamp rotating when you want to get it out. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 13:26:09 -0400 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 28 Message-ID: <359E65B1.789435E7@stoneweb.com> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <359B376F.798603F2@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <6nfrn4$6hg@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> <359c3c0a.255475354@news.bright.net> <35a12d99.4404081@news.innet.be> <359D343B.374@tiac.net> <35a54ad1.10840306@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: zephyr.ultranet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 4 Jul 1998 17:26:06 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!ubnnews.unisource.ch!news-nyc.telia.net!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!news.ultranet.com!not-for-mail Luc Van der Veken wrote: > > This is the second reference I see to a three-way bulb: I don't > think I ever saw one (except with bayonet sockets), or else I > didn't understand what's meant by 3-way. They're bulbs with two filaments inside, one of a higher wattage than the other, so you can produce three (four, actually - OFF) different intensities with the flick, turn, push, &c. of a switch. > How do they make them 3-way in a screw socket, I mean where are > the contacts located? On ones here in the US, the base has a center button, just like "regular" bulbs, and there's a concentric ring contact betwixt said button and the screw base. Note that this does not mean to imply that there aren't other (better?) ways of doing it - bayonet with two contacts at the bottom comes to mind (like automotive bulbs), but Mr. Billing states that those, too, have their troubles. -- ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| ###### From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 4 Jul 1998 15:11:29 GMT Organization: teabag Message-ID: <6nlgn1$qd$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> References: <359f7390.12066182@news.innet.be> <359AB8D9.MD-0.198.definitely@nospam.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 899579753 nnrp-09:15908 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Lines: 13 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail In article <359AB8D9.MD-0.198.definitely@nospam.fi>, "S. T." writes: > I'd say that is incorrect. At least the light switches I remember are > *all* flip-up type. Or are you telling me Finland isn't in Europe? ;) > And in a flip switch there's no "away". All the light and power switches I've seen in years are rocker switches. Typically, if the top is depressed they're off, and if the bottom is depressed they're on, the now exposed top surface is often marked a red colour (on power sockets at least) so one can see at a glance if it's on. Chris. ###### From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 15:32:51 GMT Organization: . Lines: 21 Message-ID: <35a44aa4.10794939@news.innet.be> References: <359f7390.12066182@news.innet.be> <359AB8D9.MD-0.198.definitely@nospam.fi> <359fd611.2704388@news.innet.be> <6nj3n0$hb9@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-226-239.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!ubnnews.unisource.ch!news-nyc.telia.net!news.idt.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!158.43.192.17!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail ajsulliv@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA (Andrew J. Sullivan) told us > Is the light-switch convention of up=on true in Germany? I know that all > my old-series A1 Volkswagens had a rocker switch for the lights, and the > direction on those switches seemed fully normal to me. (Ok, granted, car > switches can't be handily mapped onto building switches; but the design > principle was supposed to be based on natural human behaviour. Whatever > that would be.) You may have made a point there (about Germany). I thought the usual orientation of their switches was the same as here in Belgium, but aamof, I own a German car that has a number of rocker switches on the dashboard (rear window defog, lock/unlock all doors etc.): they all work the other way around from what I'm used to. Just haven't stood still at it until now. My previous cars were mostly Japanese, plus one Italian, and there they always worked like I expected them to, i.e. down = on. Where are the Germans when you need them to bring in some light? ###### From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 15:32:52 GMT Organization: . Message-ID: <35a54ad1.10840306@news.innet.be> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <359B376F.798603F2@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <6nfrn4$6hg@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> <359c3c0a.255475354@news.bright.net> <35a12d99.4404081@news.innet.be> <359D343B.374@tiac.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-226-239.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Lines: 20 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!ubnnews.unisource.ch!news-nyc.telia.net!news.idt.net!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail "John L. Pearlman" told us > Luc Van der Veken wrote: > > I never heard of a "Mogul" over here: the largest Edison socket I > > know of is the Goliath, but I don't remember it's exact diameter. I'll be a bit more precise: the "normal" one is E-27, I think the goliath is 35 or so. > Around here (Northeast U. S.), a mogul base is an oversized screw base, > found more often than not on 3-way bulbs (it's also a bump on a ski > trail). This is the second reference I see to a three-way bulb: I don't think I ever saw one (except with bayonet sockets), or else I didn't understand what's meant by 3-way. How do they make them 3-way in a screw socket, I mean where are the contacts located? ###### From: spalding@iol.ie (Nick Spalding) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 15:50:58 +0100 Organization: Ireland On-Line Lines: 18 Message-ID: <35a14118.21275967@news.iol.ie> References: <359f7390.12066182@news.innet.be> <359AB8D9.MD-0.198.definitely@nospam.fi> <359fd611.2704388@news.innet.be> <6nj3n0$hb9@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA> <35a44aa4.10794939@news.innet.be> Reply-To: spalding@iol.ie NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-250.dublin.iol.ie Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!iol!iol.ie!not-for-mail Luc Van der Veken wrote: =20 > You may have made a point there (about Germany). I thought the > usual orientation of their switches was the same as here in > Belgium, but aamof, I own a German car that has a number of > rocker switches on the dashboard (rear window defog, lock/unlock > all doors etc.): they all work the other way around from what I'm > used to. Just haven't stood still at it until now. >=20 > My previous cars were mostly Japanese, plus one Italian, and > there they always worked like I expected them to, i.e. down =3D on. >=20 > Where are the Germans when you need them to bring in some light? My Volvo avoids the problem by having the toggle switches move sideways. --=20 Nick Spalding ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture (getting badly off-topic) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 16:46:16 -0400 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 34 Message-ID: <359E9498.148F8799@stoneweb.com> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <359B376F.798603F2@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <6nfrn4$6hg@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> <359c3c0a.255475354@news.bright.net> <35a12d99.4404081@news.innet.be> <359D343B.374@tiac.net> <35a54ad1.10840306@news.innet.be> <359E65B1.789435E7@stoneweb.com> <6nm02b$tk$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: zephyr.ultranet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 4 Jul 1998 20:46:17 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!news.ultranet.com!not-for-mail Chris Hedley wrote: > > Just to see how far off topic we can get here :) [...] Oh, my. We are losing our way here, aren't we. > [...] a lot of halogen car headlights are designed like this, so > that one filament is focussed for "full beam" and one is focussed > for "dipped" (they're not supposed to both be on at once, though) Well, they're still basically binary devices. You put 12 VDC (or 6 or 24 or whatever) into a filament it turns on; remove same you get darkness (contrast with Dark Emitting Diode). Since there's two filaments you get "up", "down", "strange", and "off". "Strange" can happen with the new (to the Colonies) "optical horns"; when you're running around dimmed and yank the stalk both filaments go on. > What I want to know is, why aren't you supposed to touch halogen > bulbs (excepting the obvious reason when they're on, as they get > bloody hot!)? Do fingerprints do nasty things to them or > something? I've heard that it buggers up the thermal characteristics of the bulb material causing it to shatter when it heats up. That or some similar bit of hogwash. -- ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| ###### From: William.Hamblen@nashville.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 4 Jul 1998 17:27:04 GMT Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com Lines: 16 Message-ID: <6nlol8$srf$1@supernews.com> References: <35a54ad1.10840306@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.65.180.21 X-Trace: 899573224 4TJCV727NB415CF41C usenet76.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail On 1998-07-04 lucvdv@null.net(LucVanderVeken) said: >This is the second reference I see to a three-way bulb: I don't >think I ever saw one (except with bayonet sockets), or else I >didn't understand what's meant by 3-way. >How do they make them 3-way in a screw socket, I mean where are >the contacts located? Think concentric rings. The screw is one terminal, a ring is the second and a tip on the base is the third. Current from tip to screw is full power so a three way bulb has full output in an ordinary socket. Current from ring to screw and current from tip to ring are the other power settings. ###### From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 4 Jul 1998 19:33:31 GMT Organization: teabag Message-ID: <6nm02b$tk$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <359B376F.798603F2@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <6nfrn4$6hg@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> <359c3c0a.255475354@news.bright.net> <35a12d99.4404081@news.innet.be> <359D343B.374@tiac.net> <35a54ad1.10840306@news.innet.be> <359E65B1.789435E7@stoneweb.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 899581451 nnrp-10:15586 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Lines: 15 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail In article <359E65B1.789435E7@stoneweb.com>, "Carl R. Friend" writes: > They're bulbs with two filaments inside, one of a higher wattage > than the other, so you can produce three (four, actually - OFF) > different intensities with the flick, turn, push, &c. of a switch. Just to see how far off topic we can get here :) a lot of halogen car headlights are designed like this, so that one filament is focussed for "full beam" and one is focussed for "dipped" (they're not supposed to both be on at once, though) What I want to know is, why aren't you supposed to touch halogen bulbs (excepting the obvious reason when they're on, as they get bloody hot!)? Do fingerprints do nasty things to them or something? Chris. ###### From: justin.frim@ablelink.org (Justin Frim) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 20:28:00 GMT Organization: Ability Online Support Network Lines: 22 Message-ID: <899585497@ablelink.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ablelink.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 04 Jul 1998 17:05:10 EDT Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed.nntp.acc.ca!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!tor-nn1.netcom.ca!ntserv1!justin.frim carl.friend@stoneweb.com wrote: CF> They're bulbs with two filaments inside, one of a higher wattage >than the other, so you can produce three (four, actually - OFF) >different intensities with the flick, turn, push, &c. of a switch. Actually, theoretically you could achieve 5 (if you include the OFF state). They are 1: off, 2: filament 1+2 (in series), 3: filament 1, 4: filament 2, 5: filament 1+2 (in parallel). That's in order of darkest to brightest, if filament 1 is dimmer than filament 2. I don't think I've ever seen any Trilights here that do all that, but I know on my parent's car, the daytime running lights are the low-beam filaments in series, normal head lights are the low-beam filaments in parallel, high-beam lights are the high-beam filaments in parallel, and when you pull the switch to make a "high beam flash" (pulling it back but not enough to make it lock in the high-beam position), the low-beam filaments stay connected (in parallel of course). justin.frim@ablelink.org * 1st 2.00 ~ ###### From: deke.spamblock@generous.net Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 22:05:15 GMT Organization: GenerousCity is a virtue - find romance at http://generous.net Lines: 27 Message-ID: <359ea52f.21882390@news.bright.net> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <359B376F.798603F2@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <6nfrn4$6hg@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> <359c3c0a.255475354@news.bright.net> <35a12d99.4404081@news.innet.be> <359D343B.374@tiac.net> <35a54ad1.10840306@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: paul-cas2-cs-28.dial.bright.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!199.0.154.208!ais.net!NewsNG.Chicago.Qual.Net!jamie!Qual.Net!news.bright.net!not-for-mail On Sat, 04 Jul 1998 15:32:52 GMT, lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) wrote: }This is the second reference I see to a three-way bulb: I don't }think I ever saw one (except with bayonet sockets), or else I }didn't understand what's meant by 3-way. }How do they make them 3-way in a screw socket, I mean where are }the contacts located? In addition to the regular contacts, there is a ring around the button on the base. IIRC, the higher-wattage filament is the one that is uses the center button, the lower-wattage filament using the ring contact. You can safely put a 3-way bulb in a regular socket, but only one filament will light, You can safely put a regular bulb in a 3-way socket, too. My folks used to have some two-way lamps. They used three way bulbs, but they would only run one or the other of the two filaments, never both at once. You ca ---- Nice Guys. Not Married. And they like women with curves. Sound like you? Join us at GenerousCity. Search the profiles. Talk on our Discussion list, or join us for live chat. And you *never* pay anything. http://generous.net ###### From: wivey@ix.netcom.com(William H. Ivey) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 4 Jul 1998 22:22:25 GMT Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 19 Message-ID: <6nm9v1$bl2@sjx-ixn11.ix.netcom.com> References: <35a54ad1.10840306@news.innet.be> <6nlol8$srf$1@supernews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: aus-tx22-12.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jul 04 3:22:25 PM PDT 1998 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ix.netcom.com!news In <6nlol8$srf$1@supernews.com> William.Hamblen@nashville.com writes: > >On 1998-07-04 lucvdv@null.net(LucVanderVeken) said: > > >This is the second reference I see to a three-way bulb: I don't > >think I ever saw one (except with bayonet sockets), or else I > >didn't understand what's meant by 3-way. > >How do they make them 3-way in a screw socket, I mean where are > >the contacts located? > >Think concentric rings. The screw is one terminal, a ring is the >second and a tip on the base is the third. Current from tip to screw >is full power so a three way bulb has full output in an ordinary >socket. Current from ring to screw and current from tip to ring are >the other power settings. And, because the ring occupies a position that's normally insulated (or out or reach) on a regular bulb, you can put a regular bulb in a 3-way socket and have it work fine. Nicely symetrical.-Wm ###### From: wivey@ix.netcom.com(William H. Ivey) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 4 Jul 1998 22:26:55 GMT Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 13 Message-ID: <6nma7f$rtt@sjx-ixn8.ix.netcom.com> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <6nm02b$tk$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: aus-tx22-12.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jul 04 3:26:55 PM PDT 1998 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news In <6nm02b$tk$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) writes: > [...] >What I want to know is, why aren't you supposed to touch halogen bulbs >(excepting the obvious reason when they're on, as they get bloody >hot!)? Do fingerprints do nasty things to them or something? > >Chris. I believe it's because the contamination may produce hot-spots and uneven heating of the envelope, which can cause premature failure.-Wm ###### From: siegman@ee.stanford.edu (AES) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 5 Jul 1998 01:35:09 GMT Organization: Stanford University Lines: 7 Message-ID: References: <6nkdsp$ie7$3@news1.triton.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tip-mp4-ncs-9.stanford.edu X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.Stanford.EDU!nntp.Stanford.EDU!tip-mp4-ncs-9.stanford.edu!user I was once told that the NYC subway system was outfitted with lamps and light bulbs having left handed threads, to stop people from stealing the bulbs for use at home. Urban legend? siegman@ee.stanford.edu ###### From: siegman@ee.stanford.edu (AES) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture (getting badly off-topic) Date: 5 Jul 1998 01:39:46 GMT Organization: Stanford University Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <359B376F.798603F2@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <6nfrn4$6hg@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> <359c3c0a.255475354@news.bright.net> <35a12d99.4404081@news.innet.be> <359D343B.374@tiac.net> <35a54ad1.10840306@news.innet.be> <359E65B1.789435E7@stoneweb.com> <6nm02b$tk$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> <359E9498.148F8799@stoneweb.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tip-mp4-ncs-9.stanford.edu X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.Stanford.EDU!nntp.Stanford.EDU!tip-mp4-ncs-9.stanford.edu!user > > What I want to know is, why aren't you supposed to touch halogen > > bulbs (excepting the obvious reason when they're on, as they get > > bloody hot!)? Do fingerprints do nasty things to them or > > something? > > I've heard that it buggers up the thermal characteristics of the > bulb material causing it to shatter when it heats up. That or some > similar bit of hogwash. Don't believe it's such hogwash. The glass (or quartz) envelope runs very hot, getting up there toward the melting point of glass. My understanding is, a fingerprint leaves some organic compounds on the bulb. As they heat up with the bulb and also absorb light they become carbonized, which makes them more absorbing. Result is a hot spot on the envelope, which can become a failure point. ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Sun, 05 Jul 1998 09:12:13 +0100 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <359F355D.8D200E8@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <359B376F.798603F2@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <6nfrn4$6hg@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> <359c3c0a.255475354@news.bright.net> <35a12d99.4404081@news.innet.be> <359D343B.374@tiac.net> <35a54ad1.10840306@news.innet.be> <359E65B1.789435E7@stoneweb.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 899627996 nnrp-11:22595 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 16 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news.fh-hannover.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Carl R. Friend wrote: > that there aren't other (better?) ways of doing it - bayonet with > two contacts at the bottom comes to mind (like automotive bulbs), > but Mr. Billing states that those, too, have their troubles. The real problem is that using lead solder to make the base contacts causes creep (the metal flows slowly) which makes screw lamps fall out and bayonet types stick in. The solution is to use metals that don't creep at low temperature, such as brass, to make the contacts. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Sun, 05 Jul 1998 09:19:08 +0100 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <359F36FC.66A5FF27@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <899585497@ablelink.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 899627999 nnrp-11:22595 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 25 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!ubnnews.unisource.ch!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!masternews.telia.net!news-stkh.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Justin Frim wrote: > Actually, theoretically you could achieve 5 (if you include the OFF > state). They are 1: off, 2: filament 1+2 (in series), 3: filament 1, There is every kind of light You can make it dim or bright TS Elliot - Skimbleshanks The old (pre nationalisation) UK long distance railway carriages did have a dim/bright switch, which IIRC put two lamps in series. BTW to stop people stealing the bulbs, the railways used to use a non-standard bayonet base with three pins at odd angles, so they wouldn't go in a normal holder. OTOH on the London underground I have seen an inspection lamp in use with *three* bulbs in series, designed to clip on to the 630V DC traction supply. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 18:14:47 +0200 Message-ID: From: peterk@combo.ganesha.com (Dr. Peter Kittel) Subject: Re: Question about architecture Reply-To: peterk @ combo.ganesha.com References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <6ngopg$ju@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6nj92n$4sb@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <6njtb1$1kt@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <359D8C56.77A538BC@stoneweb.com> X-Newsreader: rn7.bas Organization: Private Lines: 19 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news.cs.utwente.nl!newsfeed.eris.dera.gov.uk!delos!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.nacamar.de!blackbush.xlink.net!ganesha.ganesha.com!shorter!combo.ganesha.com!peterk In article <359D8C56.77A538BC@stoneweb.com> "Carl R. Friend" writes: >Tony Duell wrote: >> >> I believe that BNC stands for 'Bayonet Neil-Concilman' (or some >> similar spelling of the names) after the inventors. > > So it _doesn't_ stand for "British National Connector"? I have >some heads I need to break.... I think you can write books about the various origin theories for BNC. > How about DIN connectors? Are you going to shatter that one too? Nah, it's always "Deutsche Industrie-Norm". -- Best Regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail: Private Site in Frankfurt, Germany \X/ peterk @ combo.ganesha.com ###### From: bbreynolds@aol.com (BBReynolds) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Lines: 21 Message-ID: <1998070522023001.SAA13630@ladder01.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 05 Jul 1998 22:02:30 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.ecrc.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article , siegman@ee.stanford.edu (AES) writes: >I was once told that the NYC subway system was outfitted with lamps > and light bulbs having left handed threads, to stop people from stealing >the bulbs for use at home. > >Urban legend? Light bulbs used for low-voltage DC applications (such as the NYC subway cars) had and still have left-handed threads (check a GE lighting or W.W.Grainger catalog); purpose to prevent frying the low-voltage bulbs in a 110vAC socket. (OT) folklore result is that bi-sexual swingers use the tag "AC/DC" = "screws both ways". -- Bruce B. Reynolds, Systems Consultant: Founder of Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA and Niles IL: Sweeping Up Behind Data Processing Dinosaurs ###### From: "Simo Tuominen" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 5 Jul 98 22:16:58 +0200 Organization: The Knights of Ni! Lines: 17 Message-ID: <359FFB5A.MD-0.198.simotit@tamagoch.evitech.fi> References: <359D8C56.77A538BC@stoneweb.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin-0-11.evitech.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroDot-II/AmigaOS 0.198 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!EU.net!news.eunet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!news2.funet.fi!not-for-mail carl.friend@stoneweb.com wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I believe that BNC stands for 'Bayonet Neil-Concilman' (or some > > similar spelling of the names) after the inventors. > > So it _doesn't_ stand for "British National Connector"? I have > some heads I need to break.... > > How about DIN connectors? Are you going to shatter that one too? That AFAIK is Deutsche Industrienorm (sp?), and includes quite a lot besides connectors. -- # simotit@tamagoch.evitech.fi # Any similarities between this text and # Team AMIGA! # my opinions are purely coincidental. ###### From: Mike Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Sun, 05 Jul 1998 23:16:04 -0400 Organization: Sentex Communications Lines: 26 Message-ID: <35A04174.B784439C@sentex.net> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <6nm02b$tk$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> <6nma7f$rtt@sjx-ixn8.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.245.212.74 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.maz.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!news.idt.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!feed.nntp.acc.ca!island.idirect.com!news.rns.net!flint.sentex.net!not-for-mail William H. Ivey wrote: > > In <6nm02b$tk$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk > (Chris Hedley) writes: > > > [...] > >What I want to know is, why aren't you supposed to touch halogen bulbs > >(excepting the obvious reason when they're on, as they get bloody > >hot!)? Do fingerprints do nasty things to them or something? > > > >Chris. > > I believe it's because the contamination may produce hot-spots and > uneven heating of the envelope, which can cause premature failure.-Wm Right. My brother, the automotive genius, explained that it has to do with the acids on your skin causing micro-pitting on the bulb's glass. Since these halogen bulbs operate under *extreme* conditions of temperature and internal pressure, the pitting is enough to weaken them, thus making them prone to shattering. --Mike. :) ###### From: andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 5 Jul 1998 23:18:19 GMT Organization: home Message-ID: <6np1jr$41j@cucumber.demon.co.uk> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <6nammq$578$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> <6nbv18$ob@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: cucumber X-NNTP-Posting-Host: cucumber.demon.co.uk:158.152.58.86 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 899682584 nnrp-10:29364 NO-IDENT cucumber.demon.co.uk:158.152.58.86 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: knews 0.9.6 Lines: 16 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.ecrc.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!cucumber.demon.co.uk!usenet In article <6nbv18$ob@p850ug1.demon.co.uk>, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > >The 13A plugs that connect to ring mains contain a fuse. Normally 3A, 5A >or 13A, although 1A, 2A, 7A, 10A are also made. This is to protect the >cable, and the device for electical (as opposed to electronic) devices. Strictly, the plugtop fuse is only to protect the flex. Of course, it does provide some protection for the appliance too, but if an appliance requires fusing, it must include its own integral fuse and not rely on any plugtop fuse. -- Andrew Gabriel Consultant Software Engineer ###### From: andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 5 Jul 1998 23:24:39 GMT Organization: home Message-ID: <6np1vn$41j@cucumber.demon.co.uk> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <6nammq$578$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> <6nbv18$ob@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6neceh$14q@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6nf3h0$nv7$3@news1.triton.net> <6ngokm$jm@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: cucumber X-NNTP-Posting-Host: cucumber.demon.co.uk:158.152.58.86 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 899682585 nnrp-10:29364 NO-IDENT cucumber.demon.co.uk:158.152.58.86 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: knews 0.9.6 Lines: 23 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!cucumber.demon.co.uk!usenet In article <6ngokm$jm@p850ug1.demon.co.uk>, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: >fernande@internet1.net wrote: > > > >: GFI, stands for Ground Fault Interupt. What does RCD stand for? >RCD = Residual Current Device, I think. Also called (in older books) an >RCCB - Residual Current Circuit Breaker ...and in even older books, Current Operated Earth leakage Circuit Breaker. The name RCD was chosen as a result of pressure from "Which?" magazine and "That's Life!" television programme (Consumer afairs media) to make the industry standardise on one name. When the devices first became readily available, each manufacturer called them by different names, which did nothing to help educate the public about them. -- Andrew Gabriel Consultant Software Engineer ###### From: andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 5 Jul 1998 23:44:40 GMT Organization: home Message-ID: <6np358$41j@cucumber.demon.co.uk> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <6nammq$578$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> <6nbv18$ob@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6neceh$14q@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6nf3h0$nv7$3@news1.triton.net> <6niign$6rf$1@otis.netspace.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: cucumber X-NNTP-Posting-Host: cucumber.demon.co.uk:158.152.58.86 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 899682587 nnrp-10:29364 NO-IDENT cucumber.demon.co.uk:158.152.58.86 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: knews 0.9.6 Lines: 20 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.ecrc.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!cucumber.demon.co.uk!usenet In article <6niign$6rf$1@otis.netspace.net.au>, "gerry" writes: >In .au RCD's trip when the mismatch exceeds either 30mA or 100mA, depending >on the type of installation, as far as I remember it takes less than 200mA >to pass through the heart to kill you. Actually, 30mA is enough. Higher values work better... :-O In the UK, RCDs above 30mA are not permitted where the purpose is to protect against electric shock. Higher valued RCDs are used where the earth impedance (or earth fault loop impedance) is too high to guarantee that the fault current protective device (fuse/MCB) will operate within a certain time period (0.4 seconds or 5 seconds in different circumstances) during a live to earth short. -- Andrew Gabriel Consultant Software Engineer ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 6 Jul 1998 01:28:54 +0100 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <6np5o6$2q5@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <35907b67.4634342@news.memes.com> <6nammq$578$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> <6nbv18$ob@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6np1jr$41j@cucumber.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 899687118 nnrp-05:23735 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 37 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.maz.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Andrew Gabriel (andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk) wrote: : In article <6nbv18$ob@p850ug1.demon.co.uk>, : ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: : > : >The 13A plugs that connect to ring mains contain a fuse. Normally 3A, 5A : >or 13A, although 1A, 2A, 7A, 10A are also made. This is to protect the : >cable, and the device for electical (as opposed to electronic) devices. : Strictly, the plugtop fuse is only to protect the flex. YEs, I was not too clear. By 'cable' I meant the flex cable connected between the plug and the device, not the cable in the wall. : Of course, it does provide some protection for the appliance : too, but if an appliance requires fusing, it must include : its own integral fuse and not rely on any plugtop fuse. Well, for something like a toaster, or an electric heater, the plug fuse is all it has. And it will provided quite a bit of protection. Just about all modern electronic stuff has internal fuses. They may be hidden inside, they may be soldered in place, but they'll be there - normally. The reason for the 'normally' is that I have a number of wall-warts, sold in the UK with CE marks (which cover safety and EMC concerns) that do not have _any_ internal fusing at all. They plug straight into the 13A socket, so the plug fuse is absent as well. And no there isn't a thermal fuse in the transformer. I've had these overheat spectacularly. I will not leave them unattended, and I'll not use them if I can avoid it. Strange, as they're recomended as safe way for home constructors to power things from the mains. Now, my homebrew power supplies _always_ contain suitable fuses... -tony ###### Date: 06 Jul 98 11:08:22 -0800 From: "Charlie Gibbs" Subject: Re: Question about architecture (getting badly off-topic) References: <35a12d99.4404081@news.innet.be><359D343B.374@tiac.net> <35a54ad1.10840306@news.innet.be><359E65B1.789435E7@stoneweb.com> <6nm02b$tk$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> <359E9498.148F8799@stoneweb.com> Message-ID: <821.491T1115T6684140@sky.bus.com> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Lines: 19 X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) NNTP-Posting-Host: news.skybus.com Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!204.244.4.2!news.westel.com!news.skybus.com!204.244.247.114 In article <359E9498.148F8799@stoneweb.com> carl.friend@stoneweb.com (Carl R. Friend) writes: > Well, they're still basically binary devices. You put 12 VDC (or >6 or 24 or whatever) into a filament it turns on; remove same you >get darkness (contrast with Dark Emitting Diode). Since there's two >filaments you get "up", "down", "strange", and "off". "Strange" can >happen with the new (to the Colonies) "optical horns"; when you're >running around dimmed and yank the stalk both filaments go on. I've heard of "up", "down", and "strange", but what's an "off" quark? Does it have anything to do with the way my car sometimes suddenly finds itself on the other side of a mountain? Beware of quantum ducks (quark, quark)... -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: Terry Richards Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 15:34:25 -0400 Organization: Terry Richards Software Lines: 30 Message-ID: <35A126C1.B5E@idt.net> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <6nm02b$tk$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> <6nma7f$rtt@sjx-ixn8.ix.netcom.com> <35A04174.B784439C@sentex.net> <35a5e5c1.5622333@news.innet.be> Reply-To: trs@idt.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-8.ts-8.hp.idt.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-IDT-v5 (WinNT; U) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.dpn.de!news-out1.f.gtn.com!news-in1.f.gtn.com!newsfeed.ecrc.net!europa.clark.net!204.59.152.222!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!news Luc Van der Veken wrote: > [snip] > > The grease [from fingerprints] vaporizes mostly, but while this is happening it > withdraws heat from the glass, creating a severe _cold_ spot (and > not hot, like someone else suggested). > The result is the same of course: the glass can crack along the > edges of the area with the lower temperature - i.e. the greasy > spot. > Because of the very high speed at which the glass warms up, the > difference in temperature would become much higher than for a > standard vacuum bulb (though only for a very brief period). > [snip] Luc, I'm afraid this is not correct. I have seen this effect on QH spotlight bulbs and, before the bulb fails, you can plainly see *black* fingerprints on the bulb. The black color would absorb heat and produce a local hot-spot (as previously suggested). Failure occurs in a matter of hours but your theory would require almost instananeous failure. I've also heard that the burning of the skin oils produces an acidic by-product which etches the glass but any such effect is too small to observe by eye and I've never put one under a microscope. -- Terry Richards ###### From: yuska@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 19:40:13 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 44 Message-ID: <6nr96t$mbb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <6nm02b$tk$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> <6nma7f$rtt@sjx-ixn8.ix.netcom.com> <35A04174.B784439C@sentex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.165.159.3 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Jul 06 19:40:13 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.04 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4m) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail In article <35A04174.B784439C@sentex.net>, Mike wrote: > > William H. Ivey wrote: > > > > In <6nm02b$tk$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk > > (Chris Hedley) writes: > > > > > [...] > > >What I want to know is, why aren't you supposed to touch halogen bulbs > > >(excepting the obvious reason when they're on, as they get bloody > > >hot!)? Do fingerprints do nasty things to them or something? > > > > > >Chris. > > > > I believe it's because the contamination may produce hot-spots and > > uneven heating of the envelope, which can cause premature failure.-Wm > > Right. > > My brother, the automotive genius, explained that it has to do > with the acids on your skin causing micro-pitting on the bulb's > glass. > > Since these halogen bulbs operate under *extreme* conditions of > temperature and internal pressure, the pitting is enough to > weaken them, thus making them prone to shattering. > > --Mike. :) > In addition to the bulb damage, there could be coating and dimming of the (usually more expensive) reflectors inwhich the bulbs were installed. (e. g., automotive headlights) The oils, etc in the fingerprints would vaporize and in turn be deposited on the reflecting surface. Consider the case of the not-too-fastidious mechanic. Joe Yuska -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum ###### From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 09:16:44 GMT Organization: . Lines: 62 Message-ID: <35a5e5c1.5622333@news.innet.be> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <6nm02b$tk$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> <6nma7f$rtt@sjx-ixn8.ix.netcom.com> <35A04174.B784439C@sentex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-226-235.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail Mike told us > William H. Ivey wrote: > > (Chris Hedley) writes: > > > What I want to know is, why aren't you supposed to touch halogen bulbs > > > (excepting the obvious reason when they're on, as they get bloody > > > hot!)? Do fingerprints do nasty things to them or something? > > > > I believe it's because the contamination may produce hot-spots and > > uneven heating of the envelope, which can cause premature failure.-Wm > > Right. > > My brother, the automotive genius, explained that it has to do > with the acids on your skin causing micro-pitting on the bulb's > glass. > > Since these halogen bulbs operate under *extreme* conditions of > temperature and internal pressure, the pitting is enough to > weaken them, thus making them prone to shattering. Acids on our skin? He didn't play the bad guy in Alien by any chance? ;-) There's a very clear reason why this must be wrong: did you ever wonder why they use glass to handle acids (and a lot more) in a chemistry lab? The only acid (afaik) that has an influence on glass is HF - and rest assured you wouldn't want that in your vicinity, let alone on your skin (iirc it's gaseous under normal circumstances, and even in that state it corrodes away the glass). The reason I always heard why you shouldn't touch halgene bulbs sounds very acceptible (at least to me): Touching them with your fingers leaves some greasy matter behind (especialy if it's been a couple of hours after you last washed your hands, and _very_ especially if you work in a garage). When lit, the bulb heats up to an extremely high temperature in a very short time (faster than a vacuum bulb because it happens through contact with the gas filling instead of through radiation - that passes thought the glass for 99.x% - and hotter because of the much higher power/size ratio). The grease vaporizes mostly, but while this is happening it withdraws heat from the glass, creating a severe _cold_ spot (and not hot, like someone else suggested). The result is the same of course: the glass can crack along the edges of the area with the lower temperature - i.e. the greasy spot. Because of the very high speed at which the glass warms up, the difference in temperature would become much higher than for a standard vacuum bulb (though only for a very brief period). Once I could witness almost the same thing happening with a plain vacuum bulb and water instead of oil or grease: it had only gone to lighbulb heaven less than a minute before, so it was still too hot to unscrew it with bare hands / even too hot to do it with a small dry piece of cloth / so I tried again with a damp one :) ###### From: "Simo Tuominen" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture (getting badly off-topic) Date: 8 Jul 98 02:43:13 +0200 Organization: The Knights of Ni! Lines: 26 Message-ID: <35A2DCC1.MD-0.198.simotit@tamagoch.evitech.fi> References: <821.491T1115T6684140@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin-0-14.evitech.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroDot-II/AmigaOS 0.198 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news-stkh.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed1.funet.fi!news2.funet.fi!not-for-mail cgibbs@sky.bus.com wrote: > In article <359E9498.148F8799@stoneweb.com> carl.friend@stoneweb.com > (Carl R. Friend) writes: > > > Well, they're still basically binary devices. You put 12 VDC (or > >6 or 24 or whatever) into a filament it turns on; remove same you > >get darkness (contrast with Dark Emitting Diode). Since there's two > >filaments you get "up", "down", "strange", and "off". "Strange" can > >happen with the new (to the Colonies) "optical horns"; when you're > >running around dimmed and yank the stalk both filaments go on. > > I've heard of "up", "down", and "strange", but what's an "off" quark? Never heard of it either. The way I learned them was "up", "down", "truth" (aka "top"), "beauty" (aka "bottom") (can't remeber where I got "beauty" and "truth" from; maybe "The First Three Minutes" or something? It's been 15 years since I read it), "strange", "charm". > Beware of quantum ducks (quark, quark)... And quantum dairy products. -- # simotit@tamagoch.evitech.fi # Any similarities between this text and # Team AMIGA! # my opinions are purely coincidental. ###### From: Tim Bradshaw Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 08 Jul 1998 13:55:39 +0100 Organization: AIAI, University of Edinburgh Lines: 22 Sender: tfb@todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk Message-ID: References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <6nm02b$tk$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> <6nma7f$rtt@sjx-ixn8.ix.netcom.com> <35A04174.B784439C@sentex.net> <35a5e5c1.5622333@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.2.25/XEmacs 19.14 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!newsfeed.ed.ac.uk!news * Luc Van der Veken wrote: > The grease vaporizes mostly, but while this is happening it > withdraws heat from the glass, creating a severe _cold_ spot (and > not hot, like someone else suggested). The result is the same of > course: the glass can crack along the edges of the area with the > lower temperature - i.e. the greasy spot. I think this is the correct answer -- thermal stress is bad news for things like bulbs. > Once I could witness almost the same thing happening with a plain > vacuum bulb and water instead of oil or grease: it had only gone > to lighbulb heaven less than a minute before, so it was still too > hot to unscrew it with bare hands / even too hot to do it with a > small dry piece of cloth / so I tried again with a damp one :) A better experiment (conducted by me as a child) is to squirt a water pistol at an ordinary incandescent bulb... --tim ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 17:16:15 +0100 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <35A39B4F.6FE99F9B@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <6nm02b$tk$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> <6nma7f$rtt@sjx-ixn8.ix.netcom.com> <35A04174.B784439C@sentex.net> <35a5e5c1.5622333@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 899924935 nnrp-02:16371 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 13 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!btnet-feed2!btnet-peer!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Tim Bradshaw wrote: > A better experiment (conducted by me as a child) is to squirt a water > pistol at an ordinary incandescent bulb... ISTR aerosol deoderant worked better, you could remove most of the envelope and leave the filament burning. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 8 Jul 1998 19:50:38 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 7 Message-ID: <6o0iie$92j@freenet-news.carleton.ca> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <35A39B4F.6FE99F9B@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet5.carleton.ca X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet5.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!howland.erols.net!europa.clark.net!209.130.129.214!nntp.frontiernet.net!node17.frontiernet.net!xcski.com!freenet-news.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Robert Billing (unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk) writes: > > ISTR aerosol deoderant worked better, you could remove most of the > envelope and leave the filament burning. Gillette Rightgaurd spray can plus lighter equals flamethrower. ###### From: Jarno Nurminen Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 16:12:37 +0200 Organization: Nokia Mobile Phones Lines: 19 Message-ID: <35A4CFD5.15BA388B@nmp.NOSPAM.nokia.com> References: <359f7390.12066182@news.innet.be> <359AB8D9.MD-0.198.definitely@nospam.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: trdhcp07220.nmp.nokia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!newsfeed1.funet.fi!news.funet.fi!nokia.fi!nmp02.nmp.nokia.com!trwww01.nmp.nokia.com!hannu.iivonen@nmp.nokia.com S. T. wrote: > > There's a reason for the UK (and European in general) way: when > > someone does an "emergency stop", he will always tend to try to > > push the control away from him. > > I'd say that is incorrect. At least the light switches I remember are > *all* flip-up type. Or are you telling me Finland isn't in Europe? ;) > And in a flip switch there's no "away". Actually what I have seen here in Finland is that all switches operate in different directions...There doesen`t seem to be any regulation concerning the issue. Though the switch has only two position, so it should not be so hard to figure out what to do when there is no light...(Change the light bulb?) -- --- Personal info in http://www.ratol.fi/~jnurmine No spamming thank you! ###### From: anders.hultman@unisource.se (Anders Hultman) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:13:50 GMT Organization: Kvarteret Skruven Lines: 18 Message-ID: <35a5da3f.7468258@news.tip.net> References: <6neceh$14q@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6nf3h0$nv7$3@news1.triton.net> <6niign$6rf$1@otis.netspace.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: d2o27.telia.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-NNTP-Posting-Host: h1392.unisource.se X-Complaints-To: abuse@internet.telia.com Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!masternews.telia.net!newspost.telia.com!d2o27.telia.com!h1392.unisource.se On Fri, 3 Jul 1998 22:22:38 +1000, "gerry" wrote: >In .au RCD's trip when the mismatch exceeds either 30mA or 100mA, depending >on the type of installation, as far as I remember it takes less than 200mA >to pass through the heart to kill you. 0,5 mA Not noticeable. 15 mA Cramp. Hand holding conductor cannot be opened. 30 mA Irregular heart rhythm. Higher blood pressure. 80 mA Killing in 0,5 to 1 seconds. anders ###### From: anders.hultman@unisource.se (Anders Hultman) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:48:24 GMT Organization: Kvarteret Skruven Lines: 19 Message-ID: <35a5f159.13381491@news.tip.net> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <6ngopg$ju@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6nj92n$4sb@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <6njtb1$1kt@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <359D8C56.77A538BC@stoneweb.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: d2o27.telia.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-NNTP-Posting-Host: h1392.unisource.se X-Complaints-To: abuse@internet.telia.com Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!surfnet.nl!howland.erols.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!masternews.telia.net!newspost.telia.com!d2o27.telia.com!h1392.unisource.se On Sun, 5 Jul 1998 18:14:47 +0200, peterk@combo.ganesha.com (Dr. Peter Kittel) wrote: >In article <359D8C56.77A538BC@stoneweb.com> "Carl R. Friend" writes: >>Tony Duell wrote: >>> >>> I believe that BNC stands for 'Bayonet Neil-Concilman' (or some >>> similar spelling of the names) after the inventors. >> >> So it _doesn't_ stand for "British National Connector"? I have >>some heads I need to break.... > >I think you can write books about the various origin theories for BNC. What about the XLR connector, any theories on that acronym? anders ###### Date: 10 Jul 98 11:11:50 -0800 From: "Charlie Gibbs" Subject: Re: Question about architecture References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <6ngopg$ju@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6nj92n$4sb@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <6njtb1$1kt@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <359D8C56.77A538BC@stoneweb.com> <35a5f159.13381491@news.tip.net> Message-ID: <455.495T2544T6716153@sky.bus.com> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Lines: 13 X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) NNTP-Posting-Host: news.skybus.com Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!204.244.4.2!news.westel.com!news.skybus.com!204.244.247.118 In article <35a5f159.13381491@news.tip.net> anders.hultman@unisource.se (Anders Hultman) writes: >What about the XLR connector, any theories on that acronym? This was discussed recently in rec.arts.theatre.stagecraft. Apparently it describes what's on each pin of a 3-pin connector: shield, line, and return. Don't ask me how the shield got abbreviated to X. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: "George R. Gonzalez" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:16:34 -0500 Organization: SkyPoint Communications, Inc. Lines: 32 Message-ID: <6o5ggd$44q$1@shadow.skypoint.net> References: <6neceh$14q@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6nf3h0$nv7$3@news1.triton.net> <6niign$6rf$1@otis.netspace.net.au> <35a5da3f.7468258@news.tip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial106.skypoint.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!howland.erols.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!news.winternet.com!skypoint.com!not-for-mail Anders Hultman wrote in message <35a5da3f.7468258@news.tip.net>... > >0,5 mA Not noticeable. > > 15 mA Cramp. Hand holding conductor cannot be opened. > > 30 mA Irregular heart rhythm. Higher blood pressure. > > 80 mA Killing in 0,5 to 1 seconds. > >anders It's a little more complicated than that IIRC. The "irregular heart rhythm" levels around 30ma are the most dangerous be cause it puts your heart into fibbrillation mode, where it doenst really pump much blood. The higher currents cause the heart to stop and usually the strong muscle contractions in other parts of your body throw you away from the voltage source. Then your heart has a good chance of starting up properly. Or so I've read. I guess the lesson is, if you have a choice, go for no shock or for a BIG shock. Regards, George ###### From: "Mike Hore" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:54:29 +1000 Organization: JAM Software Lines: 24 Message-ID: <6o4357$t7k$1@nswpull.telstra.net> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net><6nm02b$tk$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> <6nma7f$rtt@sjx-ixn8.ix.netcom.com><35A04174.B784439C@sentex.net> <35a5e5c1.5622333@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.35.98.162 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!not-for-mail >A better experiment (conducted by me as a child) is to squirt a water >pistol at an ordinary incandescent bulb... > This is now totally off-topic, but the story is funny... our daughter has a fish tank, and an incandescent light that shines on it for effect and to keep the water warm. Our kitten used to like to sleep on the glass cover on top of the fish tank, since it was always warm there. One day our daughter was cleaning the water filter and had the glass off. The kitten didn't know about removable covers, and jumped to the top of the fish tank... and ended up taking an unexpected swim with water going everywhere. The good news is kitten and fish were fine after a short recovery period, but the light bulb was history. Cheers, Mike. ###### From: cwr@cts.com (Will Rose) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 12 Jul 1998 07:46:05 GMT Organization: CTS Network Services (CTSNET), San Diego, CA Lines: 22 Message-ID: <900229567.280928@optional.cts.com> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <6ngopg$ju@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6nj92n$4sb@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <6njtb1$1kt@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <359D8C56.77A538BC@stoneweb.com> <35a5f159.13381491@news.tip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: optional-i2.cts.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Cache-Post-Path: optional.cts.com!cwr@crash-i2.cts.com Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!ubnnews.unisource.ch!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newsfeed.mad.ibernet.es!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!wesley.videotron.net!Pollux.Teleglobe.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!alpha.sky.net!newshub.cts.com!not-for-mail Anders Hultman (anders.hultman@unisource.se) wrote: : On Sun, 5 Jul 1998 18:14:47 +0200, peterk@combo.ganesha.com (Dr. Peter : Kittel) wrote: : >In article <359D8C56.77A538BC@stoneweb.com> "Carl R. Friend" writes: : >>Tony Duell wrote: : >>> : >>> I believe that BNC stands for 'Bayonet Neil-Concilman' (or some : >>> similar spelling of the names) after the inventors. : >> : >> So it _doesn't_ stand for "British National Connector"? I have : >>some heads I need to break.... : > It's French, anyway - the N is Normande, but it's a personal name not the place. I'm pretty sure B is Bayonet (?sp), and I can't recall if C is another personal name or Connecteur (?sp again). Will cwr@crash.cts.com ###### From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 13 Jul 1998 18:51:05 GMT Organization: teabag Message-ID: <6odkup$1l9$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <35A39B4F.6FE99F9B@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <6o0iie$92j@freenet-news.carleton.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 900359961 nnrp-05:467 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Lines: 11 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail In article <6o0iie$92j@freenet-news.carleton.ca>, ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) writes: > Gillette Rightgaurd spray can plus lighter equals flamethrower. When I was at school we used cans of spray paint from the art department. The 6 foot flames were somewhat alarming. IIRC, you should never, ever, EVER do this with certain cosmetic aerosols as they may contain enough oxidant to explode in the can. Chris. ###### From: deke.spamblock@generous.net Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 00:59:25 GMT Organization: GenerousCity is a virtue - find romance at http://generous.net Lines: 37 Message-ID: <35aaaa4b.10995895@news.bright.net> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <35A39B4F.6FE99F9B@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <6o0iie$92j@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <6odkup$1l9$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: paul-cas1-cs-17.dial.bright.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.clark.net!199.0.154.56!news2.ais.net!ais.net!NewsNG.Chicago.Qual.Net!jamie!Qual.Net!news.bright.net!not-for-mail On 13 Jul 1998 18:51:05 GMT, cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >In article <6o0iie$92j@freenet-news.carleton.ca>, > ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) writes: >> Gillette Rightgaurd spray can plus lighter equals flamethrower. >When I was at school we used cans of spray paint from the art >department. The 6 foot flames were somewhat alarming. IIRC, >you should never, ever, EVER do this with certain cosmetic >aerosols as they may contain enough oxidant to explode in the >can. Nice story, but no kewpee doll. Fire hazard? Yes. Explosion hazard? No. The flammable propellant in an aerosol can is most commonly A46, a blend of propane and butane. At any given time, most of the propellant is a liquid, and liquid propellant will not burn. In order to explode, you need not only something that is rapidly combustible - the propellant - but oxygen and heat as well. When you use an aerosol, the propellant being used is replaced by liquid propellant turning into a gas. This is an endothermic process; a can chills as you use it. In any case, the can will not burst until it reaches at least 120F. It's actually engineered to withstand temperatures slightly north of there. Something tells me that you're likely to drop the can (and thus shut off the valve) before it gets that hot. Deke ---- GenerousCity is a virtue. Why pay $9.95/month? Search the profiles of fun singles, talk on the GenerousSingles list, or join us for live chat. http://generous.net ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 14 Jul 1998 02:23:33 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 12 Message-ID: <6oeff5$335@freenet-news.carleton.ca> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <35A39B4F.6FE99F9B@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <6o0iie$92j@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <6odkup$1l9$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> <35aaaa4b.10995895@news.bright.net> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet2.carleton.ca X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet2.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!europa.clark.net!209.130.129.214!nntp.frontiernet.net!node17.frontiernet.net!xcski.com!freenet-news.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 (deke.spamblock@generous.net) writes: > > Nice story, but no kewpee doll. Fire hazard? Yes. Explosion hazard? No. [non-a.f.c. chem lab stuff snipped] > > Something tells me that you're likely to drop the can (and thus shut off the > valve) before it gets that hot. And if you drop that can into a nice hot fire ... (Old camper's trick to liven up ghost story time.) ###### From: justin.frim@ablelink.org (Justin Frim) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 03:16:00 GMT Organization: Ability Online Support Network Lines: 25 Message-ID: <900387590@ablelink.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ablelink.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jul 1998 00:05:34 EDT Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!scanner.worldgate.com!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!tor-nn1.netcom.ca!ntserv1!justin.frim cbh@remove_this.teabag.demon.co.uk wrote: CH>In article <6o0iie$92j@freenet-news.carleton.ca>, > ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) writes: >> Gillette Rightgaurd spray can plus lighter equals flamethrower. CH>When I was at school we used cans of spray paint from the art >department. The 6 foot flames were somewhat alarming. IIRC, >you should never, ever, EVER do this with certain cosmetic >aerosols as they may contain enough oxidant to explode in the >can. CH>Chris. >. Ever tried taking a can of WD 40 spray oil? Man, I did that and the flame was about 6' long, and 4' wide!! The heat energy radiated from this thing was incredible! From just a few fractions of a second I could really feel the heat on my face!! There was also another time when me and a friend sort of accidentally set the road on fire from a gasoline spill.... justin.frim@ablelink.org * 1st 2.00 ~ Ability OnLine - Toronto Canada - (416) 650-5411 ###### Message-ID: <35AB9115.D1DDC6F5@danet.com> Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:10:45 -0400 From: "J. Benz" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture References: <900387590@ablelink.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: pc-135.danet.com Lines: 16 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!news.nauticom.net!pc-135.danet.com Justin Frim wrote: > There was also another time > when me and a friend sort of accidentally set the road on fire from a > gasoline spill.... > Well, if we're going to talk about cool chemical-fires-I've-started, there's the time I poured a whole bottle of acetone into a sewer drain, put a 3 foot model of the USS Constitution over it, and tossed in a match... thought I'd been nuked. The ship was completely *gone*. And we had to call in Red Adair... ( I was 11 years old...and much stupider then ) ###### From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 01:07:21 GMT Organization: . Lines: 34 Message-ID: <35abe20c.483570@news.innet.be> References: <6nf3h2$nv7$4@news1.triton.net> <35A39B4F.6FE99F9B@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <6o0iie$92j@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <6odkup$1l9$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> <35aaaa4b.10995895@news.bright.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-226-193.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!btnet-peer!btnet!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail Also sprach deke.spamblock@generous.net on Tue, 14 Jul 1998 00:59:25 GMT to alt.folklore.computers: > On 13 Jul 1998 18:51:05 GMT, cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) > wrote: > >When I was at school we used cans of spray paint from the art > >department. The 6 foot flames were somewhat alarming. IIRC, > >you should never, ever, EVER do this with certain cosmetic > >aerosols as they may contain enough oxidant to explode in the ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >can. > > Nice story, but no kewpee doll. Fire hazard? Yes. Explosion hazard? No. > > The flammable propellant in an aerosol can is most commonly A46, a blend of > propane and butane. At any given time, most of the propellant is a liquid, and > liquid propellant will not burn. > > In order to explode, you need not only something that is rapidly combustible - > the propellant - but oxygen and heat as well. When you use an aerosol, the ^^^^^^ At least _some_ oxidants would serve the purpose better than oxygen itself (though I doubt you'd find those in cosmetics), so if the gas mixture leaves the aerosol at a speed below its combustion speed, ... In principle, what Chris said is right: propellant + oxidant in the same can = a real bomb, making the French "bombe" for an aerosol pretty accurate. In real life, I think we can classify this kind of explosive in the urban legends department though - I don't think the oxidants used in cosmetics are strong enough to cause any real danger. ###### From: sam@greenaum.demon.coARSE!ARSE!ARSE!.uk (Sam.) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 06:11:55 GMT Organization: Nope Message-ID: <35b3998b.31289112@158.152.254.65> References: <900387590@ablelink.org> Reply-To: sam@greenaum.demon.coARSE!ARSE!ARSE!.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: greenaum.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: greenaum.demon.co.uk:194.222.71.189 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 900569516 nnrp-01:20471 NO-IDENT greenaum.demon.co.uk:194.222.71.189 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!greenaum.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 03:16:00 GMT, justin.frim@ablelink.org (Justin Frim) wrote: >Ever tried taking a can of WD 40 spray oil? Man, I did that and the >flame was about 6' long, and 4' wide!! Isn't WD40 basically just aerosol petrol [or, gasoline]? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ well I try my best, to be just like I am but everybody wants you to be jeeeiiiist like them they say "sing while you slave", but I just get bored, http://www.greenaum.demon.co.uk/ ###### From: justin.frim@ablelink.org (Justin Frim) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 18:58:00 GMT Organization: Ability Online Support Network Lines: 19 Message-ID: <900702583@ablelink.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ablelink.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jul 1998 16:05:24 EDT Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!199.0.154.208!news2.ais.net!jamie!ais.net!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!tor-nn1.netcom.ca!ntserv1!justin.frim sam@greenaum.demon.coARSE!ARSE!ARSE!.uk wrote: S>>Ever tried taking a can of WD 40 spray oil? Man, I did that and the >>flame was about 6' long, and 4' wide!! S>Isn't WD40 basically just aerosol petrol [or, gasoline]? Not that I'm aware of... it doesn't smell like gasoline, and I sure wouldn't want to pour gasoline on door hinges and bearings and bushings and stuff! WD40 is some kind of aerosol oil lubracant thing. Oh ya, gasoline is very volatile, but I still have yet to see a patch of WD40 evaporate withing my lifetime. ;) TTYL, Justin Frim justin.frim@ablelink.org * 1st 2.00 ~ ###### From: p.h.s.3@watdcs.uwaterloo.ca (phs3) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 02:15:08 GMT Organization: RCN Internet Lines: 20 Message-ID: <6op0j7$kon$2@winter.news.erols.com> References: <900702583@ablelink.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: akphs.erols.com X-Trace: winter.news.erols.com 900728231 21271 207.96.8.238 (18 Jul 1998 02:17:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!the-smith-pc In article <900702583@ablelink.org>, justin.frim@ablelink.org (Justin Frim) wrote: >sam@greenaum.demon.coARSE!ARSE!ARSE!.uk wrote: > >S>>Ever tried taking a can of WD 40 spray oil? Man, I did that and the > >>flame was about 6' long, and 4' wide!! > >S>Isn't WD40 basically just aerosol petrol [or, gasoline]? > >Not that I'm aware of... it doesn't smell like gasoline, and I sure >wouldn't want to pour gasoline on door hinges and bearings and bushings >and stuff! WD40 is some kind of aerosol oil lubracant thing. Oh ya, >gasoline is very volatile, but I still have yet to see a patch of WD40 >evaporate withing my lifetime. ;) FWIW, WD40 smells like kerosene to me... ..phsiii Remove dots from userid portion of From: to reply. root@localhost ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Derry Hamilton Subject: Re: Question about architecture In-Reply-To: <900702583@ablelink.org> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: tardis.tardis.ed.ac.uk Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Sender: cnews@dcs.ed.ac.uk (UseNet News Admin) Organization: Department of Computer Science, Edinburgh University References: <900702583@ablelink.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 09:53:22 GMT Lines: 16 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!158.43.192.17!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!bbc!exnet2!dcs.ed.ac.uk!tardis.tardis.ed.ac.uk!rasilon On Fri, 17 Jul 1998, Justin Frim wrote: > Not that I'm aware of... it doesn't smell like gasoline, and I sure > wouldn't want to pour gasoline on door hinges and bearings and bushings > and stuff! WD40 is some kind of aerosol oil lubracant thing. Oh ya, > gasoline is very volatile, but I still have yet to see a patch of WD40 > evaporate withing my lifetime. ;) WD40 = War Department chemical 40, it was invented during the second world war as rocket fuel. The WD40 its self is very stable at STP, the flame you get out of the can is the propellant (has been propane, may still be). You will have great difficulty getting it to burn, but put it in a rocket engine and it will go then... Derry Hamilton rasilon@tardis.ed.ac.uk ###### From: deke.spamblock@generous.net Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 15:59:40 GMT Organization: GenerousCity is a virtue - find romance at http://generous.net Lines: 35 Message-ID: <35b0c35b.24983305@news.bright.net> References: <900702583@ablelink.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: paul-cas1-cs-5.dial.bright.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news2.ais.net!jamie!ais.net!NewsNG.Chicago.Qual.Net!news.bright.net!not-for-mail On Sat, 18 Jul 1998 09:53:22 GMT, Derry Hamilton wrote: >On Fri, 17 Jul 1998, Justin Frim wrote: >> Not that I'm aware of... it doesn't smell like gasoline, and I sure >> wouldn't want to pour gasoline on door hinges and bearings and bushings >> and stuff! WD40 is some kind of aerosol oil lubracant thing. Oh ya, >> gasoline is very volatile, but I still have yet to see a patch of WD40 >> evaporate withing my lifetime. ;) >WD40 = War Department chemical 40, it was invented during the second world >war as rocket fuel. The WD40 its self is very stable at STP, the flame >you get out of the can is the propellant (has been propane, may still be). >You will have great difficulty getting it to burn, but put it in a rocket >engine and it will go then... Hi, Derry. Do you have some sort of cite for this? Rocket fuels *want* to catch on fire. They are *highly* reactive. Something that is safe to spray on your hand, does not evaporate, and doesn't want to catch on fire? Well, I suppose you could fill the rocket halfway with the WD-40, then use an air pump to pressurize it. I've seen toy rockets that work that way, and they are fun. The most believeable version of the story I'd heard before had WD standing for "water displacement" Deke ---- GenerousCity is a virtue. Why pay $9.95/month? Search the profiles of fun singles, talk on the GenerousSingles list, or join us for live chat. http://generous.net ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 17:05:35 +0100 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <35B0C7CF.1D055123@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <900702583@ablelink.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 900778319 nnrp-03:24026 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 13 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!ubnnews.unisource.ch!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter.cosy.sbg.ac.at!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!btnet-peer!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Derry Hamilton wrote: > WD40 = War Department chemical 40, it was invented during the second world > war as rocket fuel. The WD40 its self is very stable at STP, the flame I thought it was a rocket lubricant that was designed to stay fluid at low temperatures. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: justin.frim@ablelink.org (Justin Frim) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 21:15:00 GMT Organization: Ability Online Support Network Lines: 21 Message-ID: <900797368@ablelink.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ablelink.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jul 1998 18:04:59 EDT Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!scanner.worldgate.com!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!tor-nn1.netcom.ca!ntserv1!justin.frim Derry Hamilton wrote: RN>WD40 = War Department chemical 40, it was invented during the second world >war as rocket fuel. The WD40 its self is very stable at STP, the flame >you get out of the can is the propellant (has been propane, may still be). >You will have great difficulty getting it to burn, but put it in a rocket >engine and it will go then... Wow, thanks for the little history there! Cool, now I know what the name means! I don't suppose you'd know what Lloyds AD 2000 (another aerosol lubricant) means, would you? (something about the y2k bug?) j/k. ;) TTYL, Justin Frim justin.frim@ablelink.org * 1st 2.00 ~ Ability OnLine - Our Kids know how to XPRESS themselves. ###### From: brian@karoshi.ucsd.edu (Brian Kantor) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 20 Jul 1998 08:45:11 -0700 Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd. Lines: 5 Message-ID: <6ovom7$qdu@karoshi.ucsd.edu> References: <900702583@ablelink.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: karoshi.ucsd.edu Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!awabi.library.ucla.edu!132.239.1.220!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news1.ucsd.edu!karoshi.ucsd.edu!not-for-mail >S>Isn't WD40 basically just aerosol petrol [or, gasoline]? I vaguely remember hearing that it was simply light penetrating oil in a naptha base. - Brian ###### Message-ID: <35B361A7.78BF8A24@TANDEM.com> From: Dwight Payne X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture References: <900702583@ablelink.org> <35b0c35b.24983305@news.bright.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:20:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: dwightp.loc3.tandem.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 08:20:56 PDT Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.wli.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsgate.tandem.com!gazette.loc1.tandem.com.POSTED!not-for-mail deke.spamblock@generous.net wrote: > On Sat, 18 Jul 1998 09:53:22 GMT, Derry Hamilton > wrote: > > >On Fri, 17 Jul 1998, Justin Frim wrote: > > >WD40 = War Department chemical 40, it was invented during the second world > >war as rocket fuel. The WD40 its self is very stable at STP, the flame > >you get out of the can is the propellant (has been propane, may still be). > >You will have great difficulty getting it to burn, but put it in a rocket > >engine and it will go then... > > Hi, Derry. Do you have some sort of cite for this? I don't have a cite for it, but what I remember is that the WD stands for Water Displacement, and that the 40 means it was the 40th chemical compound tested. IIRC, it was developed some time around WWII, but was specifically designed to displace water in electrical circuits that had gotten wet, so I doubt that it would be very flammable. Dwight ###### From: Ian Stirling <000035B4910B.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:00:59 +0100 Organization: None. Message-ID: <000035B4910B.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> References: <900702583@ablelink.org> <35b0c35b.24983305@news.bright.net> <35B361A7.78BF8A24@TANDEM.com> X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 901041655 mail2news:5401 mail2news mail2news.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mail2News-Path: news.demon.net!post-12.mail.demon.net!post.mail.demon.net![158.152.209.66]!mauve.demon.co.uk User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971106 (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.34 (i586)) X-Note: Anti-UCE in effect, replying should work if you are not UCE'ng X-Warning0: For unsolicited commercial email, sent or causing to be sent to my email address X-Warning1: on this message, I reserve the right to levy a charge for my time and expenses X-Warning2: of up to 100 pounds sterling per message, plus legal, penalty or other costs. Lines: 36 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Dwight Payne wrote: : deke.spamblock@generous.net wrote: :> On Sat, 18 Jul 1998 09:53:22 GMT, Derry Hamilton :> wrote: :> :> >On Fri, 17 Jul 1998, Justin Frim wrote: :> :> >WD40 = War Department chemical 40, it was invented during the second world :> >war as rocket fuel. The WD40 its self is very stable at STP, the flame :> >you get out of the can is the propellant (has been propane, may still be). :> >You will have great difficulty getting it to burn, but put it in a rocket :> >engine and it will go then... :) :> Hi, Derry. Do you have some sort of cite for this? : I don't have a cite for it, but what I remember is that the WD stands for : Water Displacement, and that the 40 means it was the 40th chemical compound : tested. IIRC, it was developed some time around WWII, but was specifically : designed to displace water in electrical circuits that had gotten wet, so I doubt : that it would be very flammable. Find a match, light it, bring it up to the edge of the spray while lit. Your doubts will be dispelled. As will your eyebrows, if the wind is in the wrong direction. -- See http://www.mauve.demon.co.uk/ |Linux PDA, cheap electronics/PC bits sale. See_header,_for_UCE_policy___________|_____________________________Ian_Stirling. "The device every conquerer, yes, every altruistic liberator should be required to wear on his shield... is a little girl and her kitten, at ground zero" Sir Dominic Flandry in Poul Anderson's A Knight of Ghosts and Shadows ###### From: Jim Esler Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:58:23 -0500 Organization: udev.cdc.com Lines: 26 Message-ID: <35B4F2DF.4A81@cdc.com> References: <900797368@ablelink.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: heron.udev.cdc.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; U) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!mr.net!news.mr.net!cdshub.cdc.com!not-for-mail Justin Frim wrote: > > Derry Hamilton wrote: > > RN>WD40 = War Department chemical 40, it was invented during the second world > >war as rocket fuel. The WD40 its self is very stable at STP, the flame > >you get out of the can is the propellant (has been propane, may still be). > >You will have great difficulty getting it to burn, but put it in a rocket > >engine and it will go then... > > Wow, thanks for the little history there! Cool, now I know what the > name means! I don't suppose you'd know what Lloyds AD 2000 (another > aerosol lubricant) means, would you? (something about the y2k bug?) > j/k. ;) I saw an article recently that discussed the history of WD40. It claimed that the WD stood for 'water dispersant', and that the successful product was the 40th formulation the inventor tried. It is one of only two products made by the cleverly named WD-40 Company. A hazardous material data sheet is available at: http://www.msdsonline.com/scan.htm It indicates that WD40 is "highly flammable". -- Jim Esler ###### From: "Grant Gischer" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture (Now WD-40 flamethrowers) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 19:42:34 -0700 Organization: Western Washington University Lines: 56 Message-ID: <6p67uk$465$1@ra.cc.wwu.edu> References: <900702583@ablelink.org> <35b0c35b.24983305@news.bright.net> <35B361A7.78BF8A24@TANDEM.com> <000035B4910B.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: xws095.xtrn03.wwu.edu X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!192.220.250.21!netnews1.nw.verio.net!netnews.nwnet.net!news.wa-k20.net!news.cc.wwu.edu!not-for-mail After reading this, I decided to try it. Just bought a can last week. It's the new kind, which uses carbon dioxide (CO2) as the propellant. Now, as far as I know, CO2 is not flammable at the temperature a small votive candle burns at. The WD-40 still created the flame-thrower effect mentioned. So I would imagine that it _is_ the WD-40 that is burning (quite well, I might add). If you have any other experiments you'd like me to try, I still have most of a can..... grant grant@rsnsoft.com Ian Stirling <000035B4910B.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> wrote in message <000035B4910B.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk>... >Dwight Payne wrote: > > >: deke.spamblock@generous.net wrote: > >:> On Sat, 18 Jul 1998 09:53:22 GMT, Derry Hamilton >:> wrote: >:> >:> >On Fri, 17 Jul 1998, Justin Frim wrote: >:> >:> >WD40 = War Department chemical 40, it was invented during the second world >:> >war as rocket fuel. The WD40 its self is very stable at STP, the flame >:> >you get out of the can is the propellant (has been propane, may still be). >:> >You will have great difficulty getting it to burn, but put it in a rocket >:> >engine and it will go then... >:) >:> Hi, Derry. Do you have some sort of cite for this? > >: I don't have a cite for it, but what I remember is that the WD stands for >: Water Displacement, and that the 40 means it was the 40th chemical compound >: tested. IIRC, it was developed some time around WWII, but was specifically >: designed to displace water in electrical circuits that had gotten wet, so I doubt >: that it would be very flammable. > >Find a match, light it, bring it up to the edge of the spray while lit. > >Your doubts will be dispelled. >As will your eyebrows, if the wind is in the wrong direction. ###### From: "Grant Gischer" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 19:45:35 -0700 Organization: Western Washington University Lines: 38 Message-ID: <6p684e$4uu$1@ra.cc.wwu.edu> References: <000035B4910B.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> <1998072301531400.VAA10524@ladder01.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: xws095.xtrn03.wwu.edu X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!192.220.250.21!netnews1.nw.verio.net!netnews.nwnet.net!news.wa-k20.net!news.cc.wwu.edu!not-for-mail What about the "new improved CO2 propellant" version? grant grant@rsnsoft.com BBReynolds wrote in message <1998072301531400.VAA10524@ladder01.news.aol.com>... >O.K. all you petroleum sniffing computer historians: > >This from the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) on the aerosol version of WD-40 >(tm): > >Aliphatic Petroleum Distillates: 50% >A-70 Hydrocarbon Propellant: 25% >Petroleum Base Oil: >15% >Non-hazardous Ingredients <10% > >If anyone wishes a full copy of the MSDS, please e-mail me: bbreynolds@aol.com >or reynolds.b@grainger.com > > >...and what does "alipathic" mean, you may ask??? "derived from fat", so >paraffins, >olefins, acetylenes, are on the alipathic side of the organic mix... > >...looking for a definition of "A-70 Hydrocarbon Propellent" but believe it is >"really clean" propane... >-- >Bruce B. Reynolds, Systems Consultant: >Founder of Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA and Niles IL: >Sweeping Up Behind Data Processing Dinosaurs > ###### From: bbreynolds@aol.com (BBReynolds) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Lines: 25 Message-ID: <1998072301531400.VAA10524@ladder01.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 23 Jul 1998 01:53:14 GMT References: <000035B4910B.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail O.K. all you petroleum sniffing computer historians: This from the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) on the aerosol version of WD-40 (tm): Aliphatic Petroleum Distillates: 50% A-70 Hydrocarbon Propellant: 25% Petroleum Base Oil: >15% Non-hazardous Ingredients <10% If anyone wishes a full copy of the MSDS, please e-mail me: bbreynolds@aol.com or reynolds.b@grainger.com ...and what does "alipathic" mean, you may ask??? "derived from fat", so paraffins, olefins, acetylenes, are on the alipathic side of the organic mix... ...looking for a definition of "A-70 Hydrocarbon Propellent" but believe it is "really clean" propane... -- Bruce B. Reynolds, Systems Consultant: Founder of Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA and Niles IL: Sweeping Up Behind Data Processing Dinosaurs ###### From: mww@microfocus.com (Michael Wojcik) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: 23 Jul 1998 02:54:22 GMT Organization: Micro Focus Inc. Lines: 57 Message-ID: <6p68ku$br@news1.newsguy.com> References: <900702583@ablelink.org> <35b0c35b.24983305@news.bright.net> <35B361A7.78BF8A24@TANDEM.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-058.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: xrn 9.00 Originator: mww@raederle.microfocus.com Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!mww In article <35B361A7.78BF8A24@TANDEM.com>, Dwight Payne writes: > > > deke.spamblock@generous.net wrote: > > > On Sat, 18 Jul 1998 09:53:22 GMT, Derry Hamilton > > wrote: > > > > >On Fri, 17 Jul 1998, Justin Frim wrote: > > > > >WD40 = War Department chemical 40, it was invented during the second world > > >war as rocket fuel. The WD40 its self is very stable at STP, the flame > > >you get out of the can is the propellant (has been propane, may still be). > > >You will have great difficulty getting it to burn, but put it in a rocket > > >engine and it will go then... > > > > Hi, Derry. Do you have some sort of cite for this? > > I don't have a cite for it, but what I remember is that the WD stands for > Water Displacement, and that the 40 means it was the 40th chemical compound > tested. IIRC, it was developed some time around WWII, but was specifically > designed to displace water in electrical circuits that had gotten wet, so I doubt > that it would be very flammable. Y'know, in these marvelous days of research libraries on the web and whatnot, you'd think someone could be bothered to look something up. Dwight is (more or less) right. Derry is wrong. It's "Water Displacement 40", and the "40" is because it was the 40th formula tried. It was invented by a small US chemical company called Rocket Chemical (which I presume mutated into the present WD-40 Corp., though there may have been a buyout or some such), but it's not rocket fuel. Rocket developed it for an aircraft manufacturer (M-D, maybe) which needed to preserve several commercial airliners from the elements. The planes had been ordered by Hughes, but Hughes refused to take delivery, and the planes were beginning to rust while the companies squabbled over the details. It wasn't originally for displacing water from electrical circuits, though, but for displacing it from the steel surfaces of the aircraft to prevent rust. Lubrication, etc., are serendipitous. Source: Mingo, _How the Cadillac Got Its Fins_. (Not a great source, perhaps, but better than anything anyone else in this thread has come up with.) If anyone's really curious, I'll dig the book out and get more info. Michael Wojcik mww@microfocus.com AAI Development, Micro Focus Inc. Department of English, Miami University He described a situation where a man is there to feed a dog and the dog is there to keep the man from touching the equipment. -- Anthony F. Giombetti ###### From: deke.spamblock@generous.net Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Question about architecture Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:43:47 GMT Organization: GenerousCity is a virtue - find romance at http://generous.net Lines: 44 Message-ID: <35b701e6.29134350@news.bright.net> References: <000035B4910B.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> <1998072301531400.VAA10524@ladder01.news.aol.com> <6p684e$4uu$1@ra.cc.wwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: paul-cas2-cs-35.dial.bright.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news2.ais.net!jamie!ais.net!NewsNG.Chicago.Qual.Net!news.bright.net!not-for-mail On Wed, 22 Jul 1998 19:45:35 -0700, "Grant Gischer" wrote: >>This from the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) on the aerosol version of >WD-40 >>Aliphatic Petroleum Distillates: 50% >>A-70 Hydrocarbon Propellant: 25% >>Petroleum Base Oil: >15% >>Non-hazardous Ingredients <10% >>...looking for a definition of "A-70 Hydrocarbon Propellent" but believe it >is >>"really clean" propane... The A-series hydrocarbon propellants are a blend of propane and isobutane which have a given vapor pressure. Thus A-70 would be 70 PSI, A-95 would be 95 PSI. Pure isobutane would be A-31, and pure propane would be A-109, and numbers outside this range are nonsensical. A-70 would be a roughly 50/50 blend of isobutane and propane. Unlike pressurized gases, hydrocarbon propellant is liquified, and pressure does not vary with usage but only with vapor pressure. If the can starts to lose fizz as you spray, it's because it's chilling, not because it's getting empty. (Until, of course, it does get empty.) The other petroleum based products apparently affect the overall vapor pressure. IIRC, mostly-water products use A-46; any higher pressure propellant will exceed the engineering specifications for a standard aerosol can, which is not supposed to burst at a temperature of 120 F. Deke ---- GenerousCity is a virtue. Why pay $9.95/month? 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