Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.nacamar.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!greenaum.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: sam@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk (Sam.) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: BASIC variants Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:56:01 GMT Organization: Nope Message-ID: <3593fd1a.38246559@158.152.254.65> References: <6wGjRBqXw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <6mjnnb$pea$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> Reply-To: sam@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk NNTP-Posting-Host: greenaum.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: greenaum.demon.co.uk:194.222.71.189 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 898563358 nnrp-01:22651 NO-IDENT greenaum.demon.co.uk:194.222.71.189 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 On 21 Jun 1998 19:42:35 GMT, lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: >3. BBC BASIC had cute Bresenham drawing routines and the Spectrum (as far > as memory serves) didn't. That made it faster on line graphics. Speccy video memory wasn't mapped out 1:1 with the screen. The screen was split into 3 lengthways, and the memory mapping went 1st line -> 8th line -> 16th line .... >48th line -> 2nd line -> 9th line ..... 3rd line -> 10th line etc IYSWIM. So pixel plotting was complicateder than it could have been. It was like this to make interfacing it to the TV easier / cheaper. >When I was using computers programmed in the kind of BASIC I still have >nightmares about (structure-free) People criticise BASIC because it isn't C, and because it doesn't have C-like structure, but so what? AFAIK all modern structured languages use the C style, with routines with brackets round them, and subroutines returning a value. Until you get into the mindset it makes no sense, especially if you're coming from a sentence-based, verb-based language like English. The most abominable languages I've seen are BASICs that have been distorted into "structured"ness, with pointers to variables, strong typing, and other things that don't belong. I know, I'm naive about such horrors. -------------------------------------------------------------------- I dunno about this infinite number of monleys being able to type the collected works of Shakespeare. Just to get a single Shakespeare paragraph correct would require a whole lot of monkeys. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!209.150.97.11!feeder.qis.net!btnet-peer!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!taos.demon.co.uk!!dg From: dg@ (David Given) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: BASIC variants Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 12:22:12 GMT Organization: I'm organised? Wow! Message-ID: <898604532.4168.0.nnrp-01.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> References: <3583bcca.371119236@news.bright.net> <6wGjRBqXw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <6miqdn$bsa$1@newshost.comnet.co.nz> <358d79e8.2180315@news.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: taos.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: taos.demon.co.uk:158.152.120.224 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 898604532 nnrp-01:4168 NO-IDENT taos.demon.co.uk:158.152.120.224 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Lines: 26 In article <358d79e8.2180315@news.compuserve.com>, Dav Vandenbroucke wrote: >On 21 Jun 1998 11:22:31 GMT, gmiller@inca.co.nz (Gaven Miller) wrote: > >>Every time I have to write pseudo-code, it always seems to end up looking >>like a "structured BASIC" (isn't "structured Basic" a great oxy-moron) > >An oxymoron it may be, but there was a Structured BASIC (SBASIC). It >came bundled with my Kaypro II. It was a compiled language without >line numbers and sort of looked like BASIC trying to evolve in Pascal. >I once wrote a cluster analysis program in it for my dissertation >research. It took two or three days for each run. The KPII ran at >2.5 MHz, and I had to split the upper-triangular distance matrix >between the two 191K floppies. Those were the days. This isn't a relative of COMAL, isn't it? I've never managed to have a play with COMAL; as a Basic replacement it looks rather good. A lot of the same jump-right-in-ness that made Basic so popular, but forces the programmer to use structure and is generally more powerful. -- +- David Given ----------------+ | Work: dg@tao.co.uk | An honest politician is one who stays | Play: dgiven@iname.com | bought. +- http://wiredsoc.ml.org/~dg -+ ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!not-for-mail From: Duane Hentrich Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: BASIC variants Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:30:38 -0700 Organization: DHL Systems, Inc. Lines: 12 Message-ID: <35903A9E.49428189@systems.dhl.com> References: <3583bcca.371119236@news.bright.net> <6wGjRBqXw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <6miqdn$bsa$1@newshost.comnet.co.nz> <358d79e8.2180315@news.compuserve.com> <6mmhdb$dn7$1@news.iastate.edu> <35921ff0.3583254@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.41.203.136 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.09 [en] (X11; I; HP-UX B.10.20 9000/778) X-Accept-Language: en Luc Van der Veken wrote: > Was CBASIC the same one as CBAS2? > > I don't remember who wrote it, but I'm 95% sure it was a person's > name, not a company name like MS, and I believe they also made a > COBOL compiler. I believe CBASIC and EBASIC were written by Gordon Eubanks(sp). I seem to remember this stuff being written on a very early version of C/PM. CBASIC and EBASIC were pseudo-code machines. I don't remmeber CBAS2. Duane ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.ecrc.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: BASIC variants Date: 23 Jun 1998 19:47:56 GMT Message-ID: <6mp0pc$cd$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <898518550.29859.0.nnrp-01.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-133.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: irk.zetnet.co.uk 898631276 397 194.247.40.170 (23 Jun 1998 19:47:56 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jun 1998 19:47:56 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 66 On 1998-06-22 dg@(DavidGiven) said: :Are you sure it was 1MHz? The BBC's I used had a special 1MHz bus :as well as the usual bus output (the Tube(R)). I always assumed the :1MHz bus was a slow-port bus access. I never commit. :> But I really did think it was 1MHz; on the other hand anyone with one is welcome to correct me. :A% to Z%, and a couple of others (@%, _% and so on) were stored as :32-bit integers in a special memory block (at &400, I believe). As :you say, very fast. Also persistent over soft resets and easy to :access from machine code. I don't know how the symbol tables worked :for ordinary variables. Weren't @% and _% special for some reason or other? That's the other great thing about BBC BASIC - it had 32-bit integers when most other things were stuck with 16-bit ints. 32 bits are so much more useful... :>3. BBC BASIC had cute Bresenham drawing routines and the Spectrum :>(as far as memory serves) didn't. That made it faster on line :>graphics. :BBC Basic didn't actually have any graphics code built-in. It just :called the operating system (using escape sequences --- VDU 25, :anyone?) and that would do it. Well, something in there used Bresenham thingies. And putting them in the OS was probably rather a good idea - m/code graphics without having to work out how. :>What's unstructured about Forth? :It's not unstructured; it's just... twisted. No it's not - the key is to read it backwards and pretend it's Lisp. :> But the Ace's designers did have a point - Forth is a very good choice for tiny systems, and probably better than BASIC. Unfortunately, the machine itself wasn't up to much - think how popular Forth might have been had the C64 come with it in ROM... :These days I simply cannot imagine how I'd start writing a major :piece of code in Spectrum Basic or such like. I could just about :handle GOSUB, given a piece of paper with the line numbers of all :my subroutines in it. But no local variables? *That* I don't think :I could handle. Even in machine code, you get local variables (by :saving registers onto the stack). Well, it's arguable that you don't in 6502 machine code, but... For Spectrum BASIC I would take advantage of the fact that you could have 20 GO TO b+25*c and build a Forth over the BASIC and store everything in arrays of line numbers. Perverse, I know, but frankly I'd rather do that than have to suffer Sinclair BASIC again. (For string handling it was great, and writing a spreadsheet in it was dead easy; but for structure, it was a dog.) :BTW, that post had capital letters. And you said `I'. What happened? We got sick of having to explain. -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!fci-se!fci!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!158.43.192.17!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: BASIC variants Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 21:39:36 GMT Organization: . Lines: 20 Message-ID: <35921ff0.3583254@news.innet.be> References: <3583bcca.371119236@news.bright.net> <6wGjRBqXw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <6miqdn$bsa$1@newshost.comnet.co.nz> <358d79e8.2180315@news.compuserve.com> <6mmhdb$dn7$1@news.iastate.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-226-34.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes rhawkins@iastate.edu (Rick Hawkins) told us > wasn't SBASIC a clone of CBAS2 or some such? The somewhat-compiled > BASIC that also came with most flavors of CP/M? > > rick I remember CBASIC from my CP/M days (or TRS-80? It could have been both: I did run Montezuma CP/M on my TRS, and I still have my Radio Shack CP/M Plus manuals and disks somewhere.) Was CBASIC the same one as CBAS2? I don't remember who wrote it, but I'm 95% sure it was a person's name, not a company name like MS, and I believe they also made a COBOL compiler. Could it have been Mark Williams Cy (the same one that made Coherent)? I do know their (his) main activity was in the compiler business. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail From: William.Hamblen@nashville.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: BASIC variants Date: 24 Jun 1998 01:48:47 GMT Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com Lines: 20 Message-ID: <6mpltv$r0k$1@supernews.com> References: <35921ff0.3583254@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.65.180.85 X-Trace: 898652927 4TJCV727NB455CF41C usenet76.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com On 1998-06-23 lucvdv@null.net(LucVanderVeken) said: >I remember CBASIC from my CP/M days (or TRS-80? It could have >been both: I did run Montezuma CP/M on my TRS, and I still have >my Radio Shack CP/M Plus manuals and disks somewhere.) >Was CBASIC the same one as CBAS2? >I don't remember who wrote it, but I'm 95% sure it was a person's >name, not a company name like MS, and I believe they also made a >COBOL compiler. >Could it have been Mark Williams Cy (the same one that made >Coherent)? I do know their (his) main activity was in the >compiler business. CBASIC was a product of Digital Research. It's progenitor was BASIC-E, which Gordon Eubanks wrote at the Naval Postgraduate School. I presume the 'E' in BASIC-E stands for Eubanks. Gary Kildall also was associated with the Naval Postgraduate School. Caldera, who bought the rights to DRI's code from Novell, has permitted CBASIC, etc. to be made available. Use a search engine to find the unofficial CP/M web site. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.225!attworldnet!newsadm From: "Harold Rabbie" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: BASIC variants Date: 24 Jun 1998 02:10:25 GMT Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 19 Message-ID: <6mpn6h$fie@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: <3583bcca.371119236@news.bright.net> <6wGjRBqXw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <6miqdn$bsa$1@newshost.comnet.co.nz> <358d79e8.2180315@news.compuserve.com> <6mmhdb$dn7$1@news.iastate.edu> <35921ff0.3583254@news.innet.be> <35903A9E.49428189@systems.dhl.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.64.105.217 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1162 Duane Hentrich wrote in article <35903A9E.49428189@systems.dhl.com>... > Luc Van der Veken wrote: > > Was CBASIC the same one as CBAS2? > I believe CBASIC and EBASIC were written by Gordon Eubanks(sp). I seem > to remember this stuff being written on a very early version of C/PM. The competition to CBASIC was BASCOM, a Basic compiler for CP/M written by some upstart software house, Micro-something-or-other, that had just relocated to the Seattle area from Albuquerque. I never could figure out why they named their compiler after a street in San Jose. -- Harold Rabbie Saratoga, CA Remove spam trap when replying ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail From: genew@vip.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: BASIC variants Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 04:48:52 GMT Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com Lines: 35 Message-ID: <35904ad2.31182899@news.vip.net> References: <3583bcca.371119236@news.bright.net> <6wGjRBqXw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <6miqdn$bsa$1@newshost.comnet.co.nz> <358d79e8.2180315@news.compuserve.com> <6mmhdb$dn7$1@news.iastate.edu> <35921ff0.3583254@news.innet.be> Reply-To: genew@vip.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.209.212.55 X-Trace: 898663724 A01OARAUVD437CCD1C usenet52.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) wrote: >rhawkins@iastate.edu (Rick Hawkins) told us > >> wasn't SBASIC a clone of CBAS2 or some such? The somewhat-compiled >> BASIC that also came with most flavors of CP/M? >> >> rick > >I remember CBASIC from my CP/M days (or TRS-80? It could have >been both: I did run Montezuma CP/M on my TRS, and I still have >my Radio Shack CP/M Plus manuals and disks somewhere.) CP/M: yes. TRS-80: Maybe, but I'm not sure. >Was CBASIC the same one as CBAS2? CBASIC name of the language CBAS2.COM filename of the compiler CRUN2.COM filename of the runtime >I don't remember who wrote it, but I'm 95% sure it was a person's >name, not a company name like MS, and I believe they also made a >COBOL compiler. >Could it have been Mark Williams Cy (the same one that made >Coherent)? I do know their (his) main activity was in the >compiler business. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko C Pronunciation Guide: y=x++; "wye equals ex plus plus semicolon" x=x++; "ex equals ex doublecross semicolon" ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: BASIC variants Date: 25 Jun 1998 18:18:02 GMT Message-ID: <6mu48q$9rv$1@roch.zetnet.co.uk> References: <3583bcca.371119236@news.bright.net> <6wGjRBqXw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <6miqdn$bsa$1@newshost.comnet.co.nz> <358d79e8.2180315@news.compuserve.com> <898604532.4168.0.nnrp-01.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-007.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: roch.zetnet.co.uk 898798682 10111 194.247.41.8 (25 Jun 1998 18:18:02 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jun 1998 18:18:02 GMT User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980226 (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.32 (i586)) Lines: 13 David Given wrote: > This isn't a relative of COMAL, isn't it? I've never managed to have a > play with COMAL; as a Basic replacement it looks rather good. A lot of the > same jump-right-in-ness that made Basic so popular, but forces the > programmer to use structure and is generally more powerful. I used COMAL back in the very early 80s; it wasn't bad, but I much preferred Pascal, or even BBC Basic. pete -- Pete Fenelon, 3 Beckside Gardens, York, YO10 3TX, UK (pete.fenelon@zetnet.co.uk) ``there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas'' ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!fci-se!fci!btnet-peer!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: BASIC variants Date: 25 Jun 1998 18:19:26 GMT Message-ID: <6mu4be$9rv$2@roch.zetnet.co.uk> References: <6wGjRBqXw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <6mjnnb$pea$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <898518550.29859.0.nnrp-01.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-007.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: roch.zetnet.co.uk 898798766 10111 194.247.41.8 (25 Jun 1998 18:19:26 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jun 1998 18:19:26 GMT User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980226 (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.32 (i586)) Lines: 18 David Given wrote: > Are you sure it was 1MHz? The BBC's I used had a special 1MHz bus as well > as the usual bus output (the Tube(R)). I always assumed the 1MHz bus was a > slow-port bus access. Yes. The second-processor 6502 was 2MHz, if I recall correctly... >> :> They say that your first programming language defines your coding >> :>style for life. I was lucky, in that I got a structured language. >> :>I hate to think what would have happened if I had grown up with a >> :>Jupiter Ace. Pascal, Lisp, 6502 assembler and *then* Basic - maybe I grew up lucky. pete -- Pete Fenelon, 3 Beckside Gardens, York, YO10 3TX, UK (pete.fenelon@zetnet.co.uk) ``there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas'' ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!209.150.97.11!feeder.qis.net!btnet-peer!btnet-feed1!btnet!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: BASIC variants Date: 25 Jun 1998 18:29:22 GMT Lines: 61 Message-ID: <6mu4u2$6gj$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <3593fd1a.38246559@158.152.254.65> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-084.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: irk.zetnet.co.uk 898799362 6675 194.247.41.104 (25 Jun 1998 18:29:22 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jun 1998 18:29:22 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X On 1998-06-23 sam@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk said: :On 21 Jun 1998 19:42:35 GMT, lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: :>3. BBC BASIC had cute Bresenham drawing routines and the Spectrum :>(as far as memory serves) didn't. That made it faster on line :>graphics. :Speccy video memory wasn't mapped out 1:1 with the screen. The :screen was split into 3 lengthways, and the memory mapping went :1st line -> 8th line -> 16th line .... >48th line -> 2nd line -> 9th :line ..... 3rd line -> 10th line etc IYSWIM. IDSWYM. I also have a Spectrum 48, complete with manual, which told you (in the days when you got decent manuals free with computers). However, there's no problem there that a 384-byte lookup table won't cure, and it only introduces an extra indirection into pixel address calculation. The Hercules board on IBMs had much the same problem, and anything that used a TMS9918... eurgh (now those things *did* make for slow graphics). :So pixel plotting was complicateder than it could have been. It was :like this to make interfacing it to the TV easier / cheaper. Yes, but still much simpler than if everything were based on character squares. :>When I was using computers programmed in the kind of BASIC I still :>have nightmares about (structure-free) :People criticise BASIC because it isn't C, and because it doesn't :have C-like structure, but so what? AFAIK all modern structured :languages use the C style, with routines with brackets round them, :and subroutines returning a value. Until you get into the mindset :it makes no sense, especially if you're coming from a :sentence-based, verb-based language like English. The most Well, I came from just such a language, being in the same country as you, and I tell you I had no end of problems until I found languages where you could bracket routines and return values - Forth and Pascal, as well as QL SuperBASIC, saved my sanity. (I also discovered that I was pretty good with assembler too.) I just can't think in terms of line numbers and having to watch what variables you're using in case they collide with other ones. And what's the "$" in BASIC, if not a form of strong typing? :abominable languages I've seen are BASICs that have been distorted :into "structured"ness, with pointers to variables, strong typing, :and other things that don't belong. I know, I'm naive about such :horrors. I'm not sure that C-like pointers belong in any language which also has strong typing, actually, but that's a digression. I am delighted with how BASIC has progressed. Visual Basic is positively usable, and whilst it doesn't look much like BASIC any more, it does look like a real programming language, and it does allow you to express programs in a structured, maintainable way. -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!masternews.telia.net!newspost.telia.com!d2o61.telia.com!ns.idasys.se From: Ingvar Mattsson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: BASIC variants Date: 26 Jun 1998 14:19:34 +0200 Organization: Telia Internet Services Lines: 41 Message-ID: References: <3583bcca.371119236@news.bright.net> <6wGjRBqXw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <6miqdn$bsa$1@newshost.comnet.co.nz> <358d79e8.2180315@news.compuserve.com> <898604532.4168.0.nnrp-01.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: d2o61.telia.com X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 X-NNTP-Posting-Host: ns.idasys.se X-Complaints-To: abuse@internet.telia.com dg@ (David Given) writes: > > In article <358d79e8.2180315@news.compuserve.com>, > Dav Vandenbroucke wrote: > >On 21 Jun 1998 11:22:31 GMT, gmiller@inca.co.nz (Gaven Miller) wrote: > > > >>Every time I have to write pseudo-code, it always seems to end up looking > >>like a "structured BASIC" (isn't "structured Basic" a great oxy-moron) > > > >An oxymoron it may be, but there was a Structured BASIC (SBASIC). It > >came bundled with my Kaypro II. It was a compiled language without > >line numbers and sort of looked like BASIC trying to evolve in Pascal. > >I once wrote a cluster analysis program in it for my dissertation > >research. It took two or three days for each run. The KPII ran at > >2.5 MHz, and I had to split the upper-triangular distance matrix > >between the two 191K floppies. Those were the days. > > This isn't a relative of COMAL, isn't it? I've never managed to have a > play with COMAL; as a Basic replacement it looks rather good. A lot of the > same jump-right-in-ness that made Basic so popular, but forces the > programmer to use structure and is generally more powerful. Waaah! COMAL! Run! Run! I did *not* like COMAL. Of course, I only had to use it for a few days and could then move to (the then considered) safe haven of COMPAS PASCAL[1]. Of course, we did have to use the COMAL manuals to figure out the graphics primitives of the Pascal. Heh, that computer and that Pascal was what taught me the needs for algorithm optimising rather than bit-bashing manipulation. //Ingvar (a foo MHz 80186-based computer with no direct access from CPU to graphics memory makes for non-speedy Mandelbrot displayers) [1] Apparently bought by Borland and released as Turbo Pascal 3 (iirc, the TP with a command-line driver "outside" the editor) -- Sysadmin, disgruntled, unpolite. I don't speak for my employer nor do they speak for me. Accept this and life will be easier. ingvar@idasys.se ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ais.net!jamie!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!news.iastate.edu!rhawkins From: rhawkins@iastate.edu (Rick Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: BASIC variants Date: 27 Jun 1998 17:08:35 GMT Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa USA Lines: 25 Message-ID: <6n38uj$qdp$1@news.iastate.edu> References: <3583bcca.371119236@news.bright.net> <35921ff0.3583254@news.innet.be> <35903A9E.49428189@systems.dhl.com> <6mpn6h$fie@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pv2087.vincent.iastate.edu In article <6mpn6h$fie@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>, Harold Rabbie wrote: > > >Duane Hentrich wrote in article ><35903A9E.49428189@systems.dhl.com>... >> Luc Van der Veken wrote: >> > Was CBASIC the same one as CBAS2? >> I believe CBASIC and EBASIC were written by Gordon Eubanks(sp). I seem >> to remember this stuff being written on a very early version of C/PM. >The competition to CBASIC was BASCOM, a Basic compiler for CP/M written by >some upstart software house, Micro-something-or-other, that had just >relocated to the Seattle area from Albuquerque. I never could figure out >why they named their compiler after a street in San Jose. because computer stores kept springing up on that street, of course :) I worked in one or two of them.. -- R E HAWKINS rhawkins@iastate.edu These opinions will not be those of ISU until they pay my retainer. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!netnews1.nw.verio.net!netnews.nwnet.net!xyzzy!not-for-mail From: "Ralph Wade Phillips" Subject: Re: BASIC variants X-Nntp-Posting-Host: 129.172.150.50 Message-ID: X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Lines: 38 Sender: nntp@news.boeing.com (Boeing NNTP News Access) Organization: The Boeing Company X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 References: <3583bcca.371119236@news.bright.net> <35921ff0.3583254@news.innet.be> <35903A9E.49428189@systems.dhl.com> <6mpn6h$fie@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <6n38uj$qdp$1@news.iastate.edu> Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 17:54:23 GMT Hi there! Rick Hawkins wrote in message <6n38uj$qdp$1@news.iastate.edu>... >In article <6mpn6h$fie@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>, >Harold Rabbie wrote: >> >> >>Duane Hentrich wrote in article >><35903A9E.49428189@systems.dhl.com>... >>> Luc Van der Veken wrote: >>> > Was CBASIC the same one as CBAS2? > >>> I believe CBASIC and EBASIC were written by Gordon Eubanks(sp). I seem >>> to remember this stuff being written on a very early version of C/PM. > >>The competition to CBASIC was BASCOM, a Basic compiler for CP/M written by >>some upstart software house, Micro-something-or-other, that had just >>relocated to the Seattle area from Albuquerque. I never could figure out >>why they named their compiler after a street in San Jose. > >because computer stores kept springing up on that street, of course :) >I worked in one or two of them.. > Had an even better pairing of names back a few years. A Louisiana state Senator had been elected - A Thomas BRUN. His wife taught computer science at one of the local high schools. Her maiden name? BASCOM, a good Cajun name! (Honest Injun! Sen. Brun is still active, but his wife has retired from teaching.) RwP ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.nacamar.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!taos.demon.co.uk!!dg From: dg@ (David Given) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: BASIC variants Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 19:16:51 GMT Organization: I'm organised? Wow! Message-ID: <898975011.28565.0.nnrp-07.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> References: <898518550.29859.0.nnrp-01.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> <6mp0pc$cd$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: taos.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: taos.demon.co.uk:158.152.120.224 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 898975011 nnrp-07:28565 NO-IDENT taos.demon.co.uk:158.152.120.224 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Lines: 70 In article <6mp0pc$cd$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk>, wrote: [...] > :A% to Z%, and a couple of others (@%, _% and so on) were stored as > :32-bit integers in a special memory block (at &400, I believe). As > :you say, very fast. Also persistent over soft resets and easy to > :access from machine code. I don't know how the symbol tables worked > :for ordinary variables. > >Weren't @% and _% special for some reason or other? That's the other >great thing about BBC BASIC - it had 32-bit integers when most other >things were stuck with 16-bit ints. 32 bits are so much more useful... @% told Basic how to display floating-point numbers. It was a set of bitfields that were so incredibly unmemorable that the only one I can remember is @% = 0 ...which gave you reasonably sane output (since Basic used the floating-point-number-output routine for error messages, if a program messed it up you might end up with Syntax error at line 2E2 which wasn't helpful), but you had to do things like: @% = &40A02 Even worse than PRINT USING. [...] >Well, it's arguable that you don't in 6502 machine code, but... For >Spectrum BASIC I would take advantage of the fact that you could have > > 20 GO TO b+25*c > >and build a Forth over the BASIC and store everything in arrays of line >numbers. Now, *that* is scary. How would you do the stack? BBC Basic could do self-modifying code. You put something like this at the end of your program: 10000 DEF PROCuserroutine(A$) 10010 $(TOP-offset) = A$+":"+CHR$(endproc_token) 10020 :::::::::(200 of these) Since you were supplied the system variable TOP as the top of the program, you could modify the last line using $(TOP-offset). I was always planning to use something like this for some really *hairy* dynamic memory allocation --- one of the problems with Basic was that you couldn't do structures like linked lists --- but never got round to it. Apart from anything else, the lack of string space garbage collection was a problem with only 20kB of memory to play with. [...] > :BTW, that post had capital letters. And you said `I'. What happened? > >We got sick of having to explain. Ah, shame... -- +- David Given ----------------+ | Work: dg@tao.co.uk | Truth is stranger than fiction, because | Play: dgiven@iname.com | fiction has to make sense. +- http://wiredsoc.ml.org/~dg -+ ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!ubnnews.unisource.ch!news-nyc.telia.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!194.72.7.126!btnet-peer!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: BASIC variants Date: 28 Jun 1998 17:49:29 GMT Message-ID: <6n5vn9$ikc$5@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <898975011.28565.0.nnrp-07.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-175.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: irk.zetnet.co.uk 899056169 19084 194.247.40.222 (28 Jun 1998 17:49:29 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jun 1998 17:49:29 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 80 On 1998-06-27 dg@(DavidGiven) said: :@% told Basic how to display floating-point numbers. It was a set of :bitfields that were so incredibly unmemorable that the only one I :can remember is :@% = 0 :....which gave you reasonably sane output (since Basic used the :floating-point-number-output routine for error messages, if a :program messed it up you might end up with :Syntax error at line 2E2 :which wasn't helpful), but you had to do things like: :@% = &40A02 :Even worse than PRINT USING. You're right; that is horrible. I have an Amstrad NC100, which uses BBC BASIC but doesn't document that particular corner of it (or most, for that matter), so I didn't know how excruciating some parts were. There's also a Z80 assembler in that Amstrad, which I haven't played with at all. :>Spectrum BASIC I would take advantage of the fact that you could :have > :> 20 GO TO b+25*c :>and build a Forth over the BASIC and store everything in arrays of :>line numbers. :Now, *that* is scary. How would you do the stack? 10 DIM S(100), R(100), D$(256, 6), P$(4096): LET sp=0: LET rp=0: LET ip=NNN and do + with 20 LET S(sp-1)=S(sp)+S(sp-1): RETURN D$ is the dictionary, with 4 bytes per definition & 2-byte pointer into P$, which is the dictionary space (think of it as the difference between CS and DS on a PC), and S(x) and R(x) are the parameter and return stacks, respectively. :BBC Basic could do self-modifying code. You put something like this :at the end of your program: :10000 DEF PROCuserroutine(A$) :10010 $(TOP-offset) = A$+":"+CHR$(endproc_token) :10020 :::::::::(200 of these) :Since you were supplied the system variable TOP as the top of the :program, you could modify the last line using $(TOP-offset). I was :always planning to use something like this for some really *hairy* :dynamic memory allocation --- one of the problems with Basic was :that you couldn't do structures like linked lists agreed, but VB5 fixes that (I think) in classes. Not files, though. And classes are COM classes, of course, and therefore terminally overweight ("You mean I have to include my *own* method search engine for *every* class??? And do my *own* reference counting...? But... but... That's crap, that is"). Don't believe any fool who tells you COM is good for fine-grained objects. :--- but never got :round to it. Apart from anything else, the lack of string space :garbage collection was a problem with only 20kB of memory to play :with. That's nasty! I read of one word processor for the BBC where you actually used the system editor to enter the text into the program in the form of DATA statements. How on earth could that be justified...? :> :BTW, that post had capital letters. And you said `I'. What :happened? > :>We got sick of having to explain. :Ah, shame... Of course, we didn't realise it would launch a host of `why have you stopped saying "we"?' posts... *sigh* -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!taos.demon.co.uk!!dg From: dg@ (David Given) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: BASIC variants Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 11:43:42 GMT Organization: I'm organised? Wow! Message-ID: <899120622.619.0.nnrp-09.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> References: <898975011.28565.0.nnrp-07.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> <6n5vn9$ikc$5@irk.zetnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: taos.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: taos.demon.co.uk:158.152.120.224 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 899120622 nnrp-09:619 NO-IDENT taos.demon.co.uk:158.152.120.224 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Lines: 74 In article <6n5vn9$ikc$5@irk.zetnet.co.uk>, wrote: >You're right; that is horrible. I have an Amstrad NC100, which uses BBC >BASIC but doesn't document that particular corner of it (or most, for >that matter), so I didn't know how excruciating some parts were. There's >also a Z80 assembler in that Amstrad, which I haven't played with at >all. If it's like the BBC Basic 6502 one, then you'd do: 10 FOR pass = 0 TO 3 STEP 3 20 P% = &1000 30 [OPT pass 40 .foo 50 LDA #65 60 JSR &FFEE 70 RTS 80 ] 90 NEXT 100 CALL foo (Wow! I can still remember some 6502 assembly!) [...] > :Now, *that* is scary. How would you do the stack? > >10 DIM S(100), R(100), D$(256, 6), P$(4096): LET sp=0: LET rp=0: LET ip=NNN > >and do + with > >20 LET S(sp-1)=S(sp)+S(sp-1): RETURN Ew. Fixed size dictionary and stack? If you did the self-modifying code trick (should be possible, if a bit hairier in Spectrum Basic because it's more difficult to find the system variables) you should be able to use Basic's variable space for your dictionary. So, something like this: : test word1 word2 word3 + ; would end up as: 1230 GOSUB word1: GOSUB word2: GOSUB word3: GOSUB _add: RETURN and a variable "test" would get added with value 1230. I wonder if there's a way of adding lines to a Basic program at run-time? You could do it in BBC Basic, but only if you reserved space for the extra lines beforehand (usually, variable storage started immediately after the program). Damn, I wish I had thought about this back at school, when BBC's were still cutting-edge... [...] >That's nasty! I read of one word processor for the BBC where you >actually used the system editor to enter the text into the program in >the form of DATA statements. How on earth could that be justified...? *staggers back in amazement* The person who invented the DATA statement should be shot. Total waste of space and effort. If I want to have a string variable in memory twice, I'll do it my own way, thanks. >Of course, we didn't realise it would launch a host of `why have you >stopped saying "we"?' posts... *sigh* You can never win... -- +- David Given ----------------+ | Work: dg@tao.co.uk | Truth is stranger than fiction, because | Play: dgiven@iname.com | fiction has to make sense. +- http://wiredsoc.ml.org/~dg -+ ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news.cs.utwente.nl!newshunter.cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newsfeed.de.ibm.net!ibm.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!btnet-peer!btnet!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: BASIC variants Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 19:29:54 GMT Organization: . Lines: 26 Message-ID: <3597eb02.3473779@news.innet.be> References: <898975011.28565.0.nnrp-07.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> <6n5vn9$ikc$5@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <899120622.619.0.nnrp-09.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-226-86.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes dg@ (David Given) told us > The person who invented the DATA statement should be shot. Total waste of > space and effort. If I want to have a string variable in memory twice, > I'll do it my own way, thanks. In that respect, you're absolutely right (but I wonder if the original K&K BASIC would end up storing it twice - the language "feels" too much like it was designed to be read in from a card deck, with the DATA cards following the code). I would give my kingdom (if I had one) for a decent way to initialize an array to a series of arbitrary values in Visual Basic though. Even a couple of DATA lines and a loop to read them into the array would help already. Constant arrays would be really super (I mean literally as an array of constants, not to initalize a normal array). There are two approaches I use now when the arrays are large: (1) put the initial data in a binary file and load that into the array, or (2) in a database app, put them in an extra table (but protect the database from prying fingers). That last approach is also handy to make it possible to tweak your app slightly without recompiling it, and to store program settings. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail From: genew@vip.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: BASIC variants Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 19:45:42 GMT Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com Lines: 27 Message-ID: <3597ce9c.5253358@news.vip.net> References: <898975011.28565.0.nnrp-07.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> <6n5vn9$ikc$5@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <899120622.619.0.nnrp-09.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: genew@vip.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.209.212.52 X-Trace: 899152751 A01OARAUVD434CCD1C usenet58.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 dg@ (David Given) wrote: [snip] >The person who invented the DATA statement should be shot. Total waste of >space and effort. If I want to have a string variable in memory twice, >I'll do it my own way, thanks. It can be useful. I use it to assemble lists of data (usually filenames) to work on. It's more convenient than a bunch of assignments to an array and a pointer to the current element. As to the string being there twice, I know that at least some Microsoft BASICs would point to literal string assignment statements (e.g. A$="Hello, world!") rather than duplicate the string. It's a very little jump to assume that this was done with data statement strings as well. [snip] Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko C Pronunciation Guide: y=x++; "wye equals ex plus plus semicolon" x=x++; "ex equals ex doublecross semicolon" ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: BASIC variants Date: 30 Jun 1998 00:27:03 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <6wGjRBqXw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <6mjnnb$pea$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <3593fd1a.38246559@158.152.254.65> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 sam@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk (Sam.) writes: > Speccy video memory wasn't mapped out 1:1 with the screen. The screen > was split into 3 lengthways, and the memory mapping went > > 1st line -> 8th line -> 16th line .... >48th line -> 2nd line -> 9th > line ..... 3rd line -> 10th line etc IYSWIM. > > So pixel plotting was complicateder than it could have been. It was > like this to make interfacing it to the TV easier / cheaper. Nope. They did it because it allowed supporting text and graphic mode without having to shift left by 3 bits the address (saved the muliplexer). Instead of text: charrow*32+charcolumn graph: (8*charrow+scanline)*32+charcolumn they simply used text: charrow*32+charcolumn graph: 24*32*scanline+(charrow*32+charcolumn) AFAIK the AppleII did the same trick. -- private: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ office: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ WinCE car, crashing soon on a road near you ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: BASIC variants Date: 30 Jun 1998 00:34:31 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <898518550.29859.0.nnrp-01.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> <6mp0pc$cd$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 lisard@zetnet.co.uk writes: > Spectrum BASIC I would take advantage of the fact that you could have > > 20 GO TO b+25*c > > and build a Forth over the BASIC and store everything in arrays of line > numbers. Perverse, I know, but frankly I'd rather do that than have to > suffer Sinclair BASIC again. (For string handling it was great, and Forth in BASIC? Brrrr.... Now before doing _that_ I would first write Forth in Z80 assembler, convert it to binary by hand and blow an EPROM by stepping through all address and data bits with toggle switches. There again I an _still_ member of our local Z80 user group despite having no running hardware any more. -- private: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ office: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ WinCE car, crashing soon on a road near you ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: BASIC variants Date: 30 Jun 1998 00:34:31 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <898518550.29859.0.nnrp-01.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> <6mp0pc$cd$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 lisard@zetnet.co.uk writes: > Spectrum BASIC I would take advantage of the fact that you could have > > 20 GO TO b+25*c > > and build a Forth over the BASIC and store everything in arrays of line > numbers. Perverse, I know, but frankly I'd rather do that than have to > suffer Sinclair BASIC again. (For string handling it was great, and Forth in BASIC? Brrrr.... Now before doing _that_ I would first write Forth in Z80 assembler, convert it to binary by hand and blow an EPROM by stepping through all address and data bits with toggle switches. There again I an _still_ member of our local Z80 user group despite having no running hardware any more. -- private: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ office: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ WinCE car, crashing soon on a road near you ####### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: BASIC variants Date: 30 Jun 1998 18:35:43 GMT Message-ID: <6nbb5v$piv$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <3597eb02.3473779@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-119.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: irk.zetnet.co.uk 899231743 26207 194.247.40.152 (30 Jun 1998 18:35:43 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jun 1998 18:35:43 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 14 On 1998-06-29 lucvdv@null.net(LucVanderVeken) said: :I would give my kingdom (if I had one) for a decent way to :initialize an array to a series of arbitrary values in Visual :Basic though. Even a couple of DATA lines and a loop to read them :into the array would help already. Dim X As Variant: X = Array(1, 2, 3, 4, 5) What am I missing? -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... ###### From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: BASIC variants Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 22:58:28 GMT Organization: . Lines: 33 Message-ID: <359c67bb.9036336@news.innet.be> References: <3597eb02.3473779@news.innet.be> <6nbb5v$piv$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-231-60.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news.cs.utwente.nl!newshunter.cosy.sbg.ac.at!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail lisard@zetnet.co.uk told us > > > On 1998-06-29 lucvdv@null.net(LucVanderVeken) said: > :I would give my kingdom (if I had one) for a decent way to > :initialize an array to a series of arbitrary values in Visual > :Basic though. Even a couple of DATA lines and a loop to read them > :into the array would help already. > > Dim X As Variant: X = Array(1, 2, 3, 4, 5) > > What am I missing? I'm thinking of a couple of things: - this is run-time initialization (so are the ways I said I do it, and so is the data & loop combination, there just _is_ no compile-time way that I know of) - this approach is OK for small arrays. If there are 2048 elements, it becomes a single 200+ line parameter list to the Array call: it will probably hog the compiler to death (at least I fear it will), if it will compile at all (what's the length limit on a single statement?) - I like to type my variables strictly, to avoid dark deep bugs, and for speed reasons. You won't find a Variant in any of my programs where I can avoid it. Even the argument lists of my subs and functions are all typed. The only place where I _do_ use Variants, is in variable argument lists. ###### From: das@picknowl.com.au (David Simpson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: BASIC variants Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 16:56:09 GMT Organization: Telstra Internet Browse Server Lines: 21 Message-ID: <359a6fd0.5372928@news.picknowl.com.au> References: <898975011.28565.0.nnrp-07.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> <6n5vn9$ikc$5@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <899120622.619.0.nnrp-09.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> <3597eb02.3473779@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.24.76.49 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!ubnnews.unisource.ch!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter.cosy.sbg.ac.at!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!139.130.250.2!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!not-for-mail On Mon, 29 Jun 1998 19:29:54 GMT, lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) wrote: >dg@ (David Given) told us > >> The person who invented the DATA statement should be shot. Total waste of >> space and effort. If I want to have a string variable in memory twice, >> I'll do it my own way, thanks. Locomotive BASIC as used in the Amstrad CPC and PCW range only stored the string once. The string variable was actually a pointer to the actual storage address of the string and also contained a length byte. In the case of a DATA statement the address was the actual address of the string in the DATA statement. This meant that with a few pokes you could modify the program provided you didn't pass the length of the stored string. You could also use this mechanism to store and call M/C from within your BASIC prog. David Simpson das@picknowl.com.au =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= You know you're getting older when... you're having sex with someone half your age and it's legal. ###### From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: BASIC variants Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 22:45:49 GMT Organization: . Lines: 3 Message-ID: <35a70d71.16882443@news.innet.be> References: <898975011.28565.0.nnrp-07.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> <6n5vn9$ikc$5@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <899120622.619.0.nnrp-09.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> <3597eb02.3473779@news.innet.be> <359a6fd0.5372928@news.picknowl.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-226-54.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail Please, if you snip everything I say, snip my name too, will you? :-) ###### From: sam@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk (Sam.) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: BASIC variants Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 12:42:19 GMT Organization: Nope Message-ID: <35a921eb.589604@158.152.254.65> References: <6wGjRBqXw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <6mjnnb$pea$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <3593fd1a.38246559@158.152.254.65> Reply-To: sam@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk NNTP-Posting-Host: greenaum.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: greenaum.demon.co.uk:194.222.71.189 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 899556156 nnrp-01:13809 NO-IDENT greenaum.demon.co.uk:194.222.71.189 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!ubnnews.unisource.ch!news-nyc.telia.net!howland.erols.net!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!greenaum.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail On 30 Jun 1998 00:27:03 +0200, Neil Franklin wrote: >sam@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk (Sam.) writes: >> Speccy video memory wasn't mapped out 1:1 with the screen. The screen >> was split into 3 lengthways, and the memory mapping went [cut] >Nope. They did it because it allowed supporting text and graphic mode >without having to shift left by 3 bits the address (saved the muliplexer). The Spectrum didn't have a text mode, it had one mode, 256x192x1 bitmapped, with a 32x24 colour attribute map superimposed. All the text was drawn onto the screen. > text: charrow*32+charcolumn > graph: (8*charrow+scanline)*32+charcolumn I don't get this. Does the computer you're thinking of have a character-mapped screen (like the MSX or NES or whatever)? It's not what I meant, the Spectrum's screen bitmap addresses were literally split into 3 blocks, the physical screen:memory bitmap coupling was extremely non-contiguous. -------------------------------------------------------------------- I dunno about this infinite number of monleys being able to type the collected works of Shakespeare. Just to get a single Shakespeare paragraph correct would require a whole lot of monkeys.