Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!140.142.64.3!news.u.washington.edu!not-for-mail From: daveg@XOUT.u.washington.edu (David B. Greene) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,rec.org.mensa,comp.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 00:51:06 GMT Organization: U Dub Lines: 77 Message-ID: <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> Reply-To: daveg@XOUT.u.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: cs24-8.u.washington.edu X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 896407031 28376 (None) 140.142.64.4 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 bradham@panix.com (Bo Bradham) wrote: >Greg Hartman wrote: >>Rats! Someone asked me to provide this, but I'm getting ready to move >>and just discovered I already packed the magazine this was in. >> >>The source material appeared in an issue of Cornerstone Magazine about >>18 months ago. To the extent memory serves, here's what happened: >> >>In the mid-70s a Christian writer published a novelization of the >>"end-times" (the rapture, the second coming, the Antichrist, all that >>stuff). In the novel, a group of scientists in Belgium happened to be >>working on a giant computer in Belgium, upon which they were collecting >>data on everyone in the world ... >> >>Now, then -- someone heard second- or third-hand about this aspect of >>the novel, failed to understand they were hearing about a novel, and >>published an article in "Christian Life" magazine in November, 1976. The >>article stated that right this minute scientists were actually working >>on a giant computer in Belgium, etc. etc., NOT that someone had written >>a fictional book about it. >> >>Well, turns out more folks read the article than the book, and a UL was >>born. The author of the book (this is the part of the information I >>can't remember without having the article in front of me) has ever since >>then written the editor of any publication vectoring this UL, explaining >>that it's not true and never was. Naturally, almost no one's listening. >> >>The Cornerstone article was titled "Antichrists and Microchips: >>End-times Hysteria," written by Richard Abanes (sorry, can't remember >>the date without the magazine handy). The article quotes the account of >>this UL's birth from a book titled "99 Reasons Why No One Knows When >>Christ Will Return," by B.J. Oropeza (Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity >>Press, 1994). And as aforementioned, the Christian Life article appeared >>in 11/76. >[Couldn't bear to clip any of that] >Fascinating! I remember hearing a TeeVee preacher warning about >"The Beast", it had to have been in the mid-70's (I was gonna >guess earlier than the above time frame but I have nothing to >base that guesss on but my failing memory.) >I just did an alta vista search on +"the beast" +computer >+Belgium and got about 20 pages of hits. I won't bore you but >most of them treat the story of the Beast as passe, something >people used to believe but most people have caught on to. >Of the dozen or so pages I checked only out one or two appeared to see >"the beast" (i.e. the computer in Brussels) as a serious threat >to um, whatever it is supposed to be a serious threat to. My >sample was small though compared to the number of hits I got on >the search. >I have no idea how the web treatment of "the beast" maps to what is >going on out in the real world, but a lot of people seem to have >let this one fall by the wayside. >Bo "I miss it already" Bradham >-- > "You mean you don't use machine guns in _your_ pictures?" > -- Charles Bronson to Ingmar Bergman Of course, with the Year 2000 disaster looming upon us, no one will have to worry about "The Beast" in a couple of years ;) Still though, the apochryphal story has an element of truth in that too much about each of us is available in electronic databases. I think the decentralization and dissemination of computer records is a bigger problem than a giant centralized database would be anyway. In the news recently several hackers testified before Congress that they could bring America's computers to their knees in half an hour or less including the internet. I'm skeptical of the claim as the net was originally designed for survivability under wartime conditions with the ability to bypass damged sections. Dave Greene ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!wn4feed!135.173.83.24!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!140.142.64.3!news.u.washington.edu!dante18.u.washington.edu!optimist From: "C. Hillman" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 01:12:26 -0700 Organization: University of Washington Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dante18.u.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 896429548 26516 (None) 140.142.64.5 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-User: optimist In-Reply-To: <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> On Fri, 29 May 1998, David B. Greene wrote: > In the news recently several hackers testified before Congress that they > could bring America's computers to their knees in half an hour or less > including the internet. I'm skeptical of the claim as the net was > originally designed for survivability under wartime conditions with the > ability to bypass damged sections. You are right to be skeptical :-/ but nuclear attack and hacker attack pose quite different threats to the InterNet. These hackers were probably talking about "denial-of-service attacks" on key local networks (basically, the attacker ties up the server which connects the local network to everything else), a concept which has been demonstrated :-/ many times. Some years ago a large part of the InterNet -was- crashed for half a day by a runway "worm" which had a similar effect. So their claims are not -entirely- incredible. Chris Hillman TO REACH ME BY EMAIL: the address optimist@u.washington.edu is only for spammers; human correspondents can reach me at the address you can find by visiting my home page: http://www.math.washington.edu/~hillman/personal.html (If you already know my email address--- I haven't moved, this is just a ruse to foil the spammers!) ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.ultranet.com!not-for-mail From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 05:23:54 -0400 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 22 Message-ID: <356E7EAA.2EF94594@stoneweb.com> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: zephyr.ultranet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 29 May 1998 09:24:28 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) C. Hillman wrote: > > You are right to be skeptical :-/ but nuclear attack and hacker > attack pose quite different threats to the InterNet. [...] Remember, also, that when the IP protocol was developed under the auspices of DARPA, the 'Net wasn't "public access" the way it is now. Technically, in fact, it wasn't even the Internet, it was ARPAnet. By the way, please use the term "cracker" for the sort of jerk who enjoys breaking into other peoples' computers and getting into mischief in general. To use the term "hacker" places a time-honoured title in a _very_ unsavoury light. -- ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!192.26.210.166!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!wesley.videotron.net!Pollux.Teleglobe.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.pyramid.com!not-for-mail From: lstowell@pyrtech.mis.pyramid.com (Lon Stowell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 29 May 1998 10:16:23 -0700 Organization: Pyramid Technology Corporation Lines: 19 Message-ID: <6kmqh7$fab@pyrtech.mis.pyramid.com> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pyrtech.mis.pyramid.com >[huge snip] >> In the news recently several hackers testified before Congress that they >> could bring America's computers to their knees in half an hour or less >> including the internet. I'm skeptical of the claim as the net was >> originally designed for survivability under wartime conditions with the >> ability to bypass damged sections. Just because a network architecture has been designed to survive nuclear holocaust doesn't mean it is immune to WebTV or a bunch of sociopathic 12 year olds. Worms are one method, so are simple SYN floods, bogus ICMP attacks, etc. Besides, even DARPA/ARPA gurus never considered the onslaught of Windows operating system type vulnerabilities. a href=res://123456........253,254,256,257 [awmf] Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!192.26.210.166!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!wesley.videotron.net!Pollux.Teleglobe.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.pyramid.com!not-for-mail From: lstowell@pyrtech.mis.pyramid.com (Lon Stowell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 29 May 1998 10:16:23 -0700 Organization: Pyramid Technology Corporation Lines: 19 Message-ID: <6kmqh7$fab@pyrtech.mis.pyramid.com> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pyrtech.mis.pyramid.com >[huge snip] >> In the news recently several hackers testified before Congress that they >> could bring America's computers to their knees in half an hour or less >> including the internet. I'm skeptical of the claim as the net was >> originally designed for survivability under wartime conditions with the >> ability to bypass damged sections. Just because a network architecture has been designed to survive nuclear holocaust doesn't mean it is immune to WebTV or a bunch of sociopathic 12 year olds. Worms are one method, so are simple SYN floods, bogus ICMP attacks, etc. Besides, even DARPA/ARPA gurus never considered the onslaught of Windows operating system type vulnerabilities. a href=res://123456........253,254,256,257 [awmf] ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!24.128.1.125!chnws03.mediaone.net!24.131.1.12!denws01.mw.mediaone.net!news.gmi.edu!nova.kettering.edu!lee1089 From: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,rec.org.mensa,comp.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 12:38:01 -0400 Organization: Kettering University (formerly GMI E&MI) - Flint MI Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: nova.kettering.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> On Fri, 29 May 1998, David B. Greene wrote: [huge snip] > In the news recently several hackers testified before Congress that they > could bring America's computers to their knees in half an hour or less > including the internet. I'm skeptical of the claim as the net was > originally designed for survivability under wartime conditions with the > ability to bypass damged sections. Two words, Internet Worm. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!blackbush.xlink.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!192.88.144.6!news.kei.com!wang!usenet From: merittj@wangfed.com (Jim Meritt) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,rec.org.mensa,comp.misc,comp.security.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 29 May 1998 16:49:33 GMT Organization: Organized? Lines: 19 Message-ID: <6kmouu$e5@elf.wang.com> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 159.94.50.47 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Released Version) (x86 32bit) In article <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu>, daveg@XOUT.u.washington.edu says... >In the news recently several hackers testified before Congress that they >could bring America's computers to their knees in half an hour or less >including the internet. I'm skeptical of the claim as the net was >originally designed for survivability under wartime conditions with the >ability to bypass damged sections. November, 1988. Robert T. Morris, Jr. Does history cure skeptism? -- James W. Meritt Senior Security Analyst employeed by Wang Global The opinions expressed above are my own. The facts simply are and belong to none. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!192.232.20.2!malgudi.oar.net!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.anet-stl.com!not-for-mail From: Jim Everman Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,rec.org.mensa,comp.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Followup-To: rec.org.mensa Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 18:39:11 -0500 Organization: Very good. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <356F471F.3F03@anet-stl.com> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <356F3D6A.234D987A@no.spam.stormtech.com> Reply-To: everman@anet-stl.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp011.anet-stl.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.anet-stl.com 896485117 794 209.83.129.11 (29 May 1998 23:38:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.anet-stl.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 May 1998 23:38:36 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Pepijn Schmitz wrote: > > lee1089@kettering.edu wrote: > > > > On Fri, 29 May 1998, David B. Greene wrote: > > [huge snip] > > > In the news recently several hackers testified before Congress that they > > > could bring America's computers to their knees in half an hour or less > > > including the internet. I'm skeptical of the claim as the net was > > > originally designed for survivability under wartime conditions with the > > > ability to bypass damged sections. > > > > Two words, Internet Worm. > > That was back in the days when the Internet had only a couple of > thousand nodes, and they all ran UNIX. It's very unlikely that something > similar could happen again these days, the Internet is too large and > diverse for a single program to bring it to its knees. The bigger they are, the harder they fall.... -- Jim Everman mailto:everman@Anet-STL.com http://webusers.Anet-STL.com/~everman/ Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!192.232.20.2!malgudi.oar.net!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.anet-stl.com!not-for-mail From: Jim Everman Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc,comp.security.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Followup-To: rec.org.mensa Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 18:50:30 -0500 Organization: Very good. Lines: 9 Message-ID: <356F49C6.3D13@anet-stl.com> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <6kmouu$e5@elf.wang.com> Reply-To: everman@anet-stl.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp011.anet-stl.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.anet-stl.com 896485810 839 209.83.129.11 (29 May 1998 23:50:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.anet-stl.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 May 1998 23:50:10 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Jim Meritt wrote: > > Does history cure skeptism? > Nothing cure *extream* skeptism. -- Jim Everman ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.pyramid.com!not-for-mail From: lstowell@pyrtech.mis.pyramid.com (Lon Stowell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,rec.org.mensa,comp.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 29 May 1998 20:06:36 -0700 Organization: Pyramid Technology Corporation Lines: 15 Message-ID: <6knt3s$sqo@pyrtech.mis.pyramid.com> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <356F3D6A.234D987A@no.spam.stormtech.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pyrtech.mis.pyramid.com Pepijn Schmitz wrote: > >That was back in the days when the Internet had only a couple of >thousand nodes, and they all ran UNIX. It's very unlikely that something >similar could happen again these days, the Internet is too large and >diverse for a single program to bring it to its knees. The worm didn't affect all of the unix boxes, some machines didn't even understand the concept. However, the internet is easily brought to its knees by methods so trivial they are laughable. In fact, there have been some recent incidents accidental and intentional that have dropped more hosts than Robert ever dreamed of. Hint, ignore the nodes, go for the network itself. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!24.128.1.125!chnws03.mediaone.net!24.131.1.12!denws01.mw.mediaone.net!news.gmi.edu!nova.kettering.edu!lee1089 From: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,rec.org.mensa,comp.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 22:07:27 -0400 Organization: Kettering University (formerly GMI E&MI) - Flint MI Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <356F3D6A.234D987A@no.spam.stormtech.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: nova.kettering.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: <356F3D6A.234D987A@no.spam.stormtech.com> On Fri, 29 May 1998, Pepijn Schmitz wrote: > lee1089@kettering.edu wrote: > > > > On Fri, 29 May 1998, David B. Greene wrote: > > [huge snip] > > > In the news recently several hackers testified before Congress that they > > > could bring America's computers to their knees in half an hour or less > > > including the internet. I'm skeptical of the claim as the net was > > > originally designed for survivability under wartime conditions with the > > > ability to bypass damged sections. > > > > Two words, Internet Worm. > > That was back in the days when the Internet had only a couple of > thousand nodes, and they all ran UNIX. It's very unlikely that something > similar could happen again these days, the Internet is too large and > diverse for a single program to bring it to its knees. I'll believe that when I see it. BTW, the majority of the Internet is still Unix and derivatives. Also what NT servers that exist are even easier to bring down than Unix. Also, with Java being supported on most platforms, a Java worm could do a lot of damage. Another thing is that you don't have to bring down *all* the machines to make the net unusable, just some key systems (especially those that control the transatlantic links). ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!newshub2.home.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news.rdc1.sfba.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <356F3D6A.234D987A@no.spam.stormtech.com> From: Pepijn Schmitz X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,rec.org.mensa,comp.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 22:58:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.19.22.187 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 15:58:44 PDT Organization: @Work Internet powered by @Home Network Lines: 18 lee1089@kettering.edu wrote: > > On Fri, 29 May 1998, David B. Greene wrote: > [huge snip] > > In the news recently several hackers testified before Congress that they > > could bring America's computers to their knees in half an hour or less > > including the internet. I'm skeptical of the claim as the net was > > originally designed for survivability under wartime conditions with the > > ability to bypass damged sections. > > Two words, Internet Worm. That was back in the days when the Internet had only a couple of thousand nodes, and they all ran UNIX. It's very unlikely that something similar could happen again these days, the Internet is too large and diverse for a single program to bring it to its knees. /Pepijn ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.concentric.net!global-news-master From: cauce.nospam@vo.cnchost.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,rec.org.mensa,comp.misc,comp.security.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 30 May 1998 02:04:15 EDT Organization: Concentric Internet Services Lines: 26 Message-ID: <3570a1d4.602741088@news.concentric.net> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <6kmouu$e5@elf.wang.com> <6ko3k3$ijs@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.31.36.26 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 See ye here, fantom32@hotmail.net (Venigoon) crafted the following words: >In article <6kmouu$e5@elf.wang.com>, merittj@wangfed.com (Jim Meritt) wrote: >>In article <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu>, daveg@XOUT.u.washington.edu >>says... >> >>>In the news recently several hackers testified before Congress that they >>>could bring America's computers to their knees in half an hour or less >>>including the internet. This news story is the lead cover article on the May 25 print issue of Internet week, available on the web at: http://pubs.cmpnet.com/internetwk/news/news0522-7.htm >Can you remember on what TV network did you see this program? >Name of the program, original date of broadcast, etc. >Was that on C-Span by any chance? >I'd appreciate this info. >Thanx > All email sent to the address used for this post is deleted unread (although headers may be used in my spam filters). To reach my real email box, send to personal@ at the above domain. ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 30 May 1998 02:43:40 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 "C. Hillman" writes: > many times. Some years ago a large part of the InterNet -was- crashed for > half a day by a runway "worm" which had a similar effect. So their claims > are not -entirely- incredible. And that on a.f.c. Those "some" years are 10! To be precise: evening of the 2nd November 1988. See http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/Info_Texts/worm_report.ps -- private: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ office: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ WinCE car, crashing soon on a road near you ###### report moved to: http://neil.franklin.ch/Info_Texts/worm_report.ps home page generally moved to: http://neil.franklin.ch/ ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!fci-se!fci!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!199.0.154.208!ais.net!ix.netcom.com!flem From: fantom32@hotmail.net (Venigoon) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,rec.org.mensa,comp.misc,comp.security.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 04:57:33 GMT Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 14 Message-ID: <6ko3k3$ijs@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <6kmouu$e5@elf.wang.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pax-ca35-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 29 11:57:39 PM CDT 1998 X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 In article <6kmouu$e5@elf.wang.com>, merittj@wangfed.com (Jim Meritt) wrote: >In article <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu>, daveg@XOUT.u.washington.edu >says... > >>In the news recently several hackers testified before Congress that they >>could bring America's computers to their knees in half an hour or less >>including the internet. Can you remember on what TV network did you see this program? Name of the program, original date of broadcast, etc. Was that on C-Span by any chance? I'd appreciate this info. Thanx ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-dc.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!204.71.76.137!news.campus.mci.net!uky.edu!news.cuny.edu!schmooze.hunter.cuny.edu!ershc From: "Eric Schweitzer (archy)" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,rec.org.mensa,comp.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 12:35:50 -0400 Lines: 21 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <356F3D6A.234D987A@no.spam.stormtech.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: schmooze.hunter.cuny.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: <356F3D6A.234D987A@no.spam.stormtech.com> On Fri, 29 May 1998, Pepijn Schmitz wrote: > > Two words, Internet Worm. > > That was back in the days when the Internet had only a couple of > thousand nodes, and they all ran UNIX. It's very unlikely that something > similar could happen again these days, the Internet is too large and > diverse for a single program to bring it to its knees. Wrong, and wrong. I recall the day. My newsfeed craped out, and there wasn't much email, but the IBM 3090 (running VM/CMS or VM/XMS, I can't recall, for sure not unix) that was supplying these services ran just fine. Later, when I read the news about the Great Internet Worm, I smiled and thanked cross-platform immunity. As for "too large and diverse", we will have to see. The methods I've heard sound like they'd work. A system designed around trusted entities has trouble when those entities are not trustworthy. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newshub.northeast.verio.net!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.anet-stl.com!not-for-mail From: Jim Everman Newsgroups: alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 20:20:47 -0500 Organization: Very good. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <3570B06F.3E6C@anet-stl.com> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <356E7EAA.2EF94594@stoneweb.com> <3578ac96.17205590@news.innet.be> Reply-To: everman@anet-stl.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp132.anet-stl.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.anet-stl.com 896577680 7510 209.83.129.132 (31 May 1998 01:21:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.anet-stl.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 May 1998 01:21:20 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Luc Van der Veken wrote: > > "Carl R. Friend" told us > > > By the way, please use the term "cracker" for the sort of jerk > > who enjoys breaking into other peoples' computers and getting into > > mischief in general. To use the term "hacker" places a time-honoured > > title in a _very_ unsavoury light. > > Ah, a guy to my heart. Too bad the computer-illiterate media have > already branded the word "hacker" - we're too late to save its > real meaning. I don't recall "hacker" ever having a savoury rep, regardless of the amount of effort spent trying to make it one. Seems to me that it started out meaning pretty much what it does now. On the other hand, being from the north, I've never had much use for "Crackers" (just kidding). J E ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!europa.clark.net!205.252.116.205!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!wdcpop.dra.net!news.dra.com!news.anet-stl.com!not-for-mail From: Jim Everman Newsgroups: alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 22:19:18 -0500 Organization: Very good. Lines: 31 Message-ID: <3570CC36.2A87@anet-stl.com> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <356E7EAA.2EF94594@stoneweb.com> <3578ac96.17205590@news.innet.be> <3570B06F.3E6C@anet-stl.com> <3573c1c2.22625583@news.innet.be> Reply-To: everman@anet-stl.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp100.anet-stl.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.anet-stl.com 896623541 10416 209.83.129.100 (31 May 1998 14:05:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.anet-stl.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 May 1998 14:05:41 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Luc Van der Veken wrote: > Check the New Hacker's Dictionary (also known as "the Jargon > file") on it then. It's easy to find on the web (plenty copies of > it) - just use your favorite search engine on "jargon file". That's exactly the sort of effort I was refering to. What you need to do is go back to early editions of _Byte_ (or maybe _Dr. Dobbs_) when the term first came into use. Don't take this wrong, I like the term also. If I can make a good guess about the year I may try to look it up. I have all the old issues of _Byte_ and I know it was a big issue for a while. > > On the other hand, being from the north, I've never had much use for > > "Crackers" (just kidding). > > I like the ones with barbeque flavour best. Georgia Crackers or Florida Crackers? (Perhaps I should ask if you are aware that Cracker is a slang term for certain USAian southerners?) -- Jim Everman mailto:everman@Anet-STL.com http://webusers.Anet-STL.com/~everman/ Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity. ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 30 May 1998 22:25:56 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 43 Message-ID: References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <6kplpb$85p$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 bmeyer@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au writes: > Neil Franklin writes: > >To be precise: evening of the 2nd November 1988. > What timezone? Given the inprecise time "evening" I will give an imprecise zone: "US". > And will the Dow go down on 2nd November 1998 because of the (rather > justified) fear of someone "celebrating" the anniversay with a repeat stunt? Those who still know about the worm and (most important) when it was, are most likely out of the computer crashing age. Those doing such things today most likely do not know the anniversity date. OTOH perhaps I should finish my security improvement before then :-) Buffer overflow Bugs still exist. Back doors still exist. Bad Password still exist. Crashers* still exist. *While calling these people hackers is wrong and disliked rightly by real hackers, using the term crackers is also wrong and disliked by real crackers (those that crack copy protection and license enforcing systems that hobble legitimate users to protect the vendors), so I use the term crashers, as this describes the mayhem they like to produce. > After all, it _did_ go down 10 years after Black, uhm, Tuesday(?) earlier > this year (or was it late last year), despite there not being any > rational reason to link a date 10 years ago to today.... Stockbrokers are not rational beings. And the Black Tuesday was part of their history. OTOH the Internet Worm wasn't. Most Wallstreet critters will never have heard of it. -- private: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ office: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ WinCE car, crashing soon on a road near you ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!24.128.1.125!chnws03.mediaone.net!24.131.1.12!denws01.mw.mediaone.net!news.gmi.edu!nova.kettering.edu!lee1089 From: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 01:02:15 -0400 Organization: Kettering University (formerly GMI E&MI) - Flint MI Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <356E7EAA.2EF94594@stoneweb.com> <3578ac96.17205590@news.innet.be> <3570B06F.3E6C@anet-stl.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: nova.kettering.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: <3570B06F.3E6C@anet-stl.com> On Sat, 30 May 1998, Jim Everman wrote: > Luc Van der Veken wrote: > > > > "Carl R. Friend" told us > > > > > By the way, please use the term "cracker" for the sort of jerk > > > who enjoys breaking into other peoples' computers and getting into > > > mischief in general. To use the term "hacker" places a time-honoured > > > title in a _very_ unsavoury light. > > > > Ah, a guy to my heart. Too bad the computer-illiterate media have > > already branded the word "hacker" - we're too late to save its > > real meaning. > > I don't recall "hacker" ever having a savoury rep, regardless of the > amount of effort spent trying to make it one. Seems to me that it > started out meaning pretty much what it does now. > > On the other hand, being from the north, I've never had much use for > "Crackers" (just kidding). How old are you? I'm but 20 and I know the origin of "hacker". A Hacker is one who creates hacks. A hack is a piece of code (or other engineering not necessarily even having to do with computers) that is compact, ingenious, does what it's supposed to do, doesn't break anything else, is fast, etc. IIRC it's origin lies deep within the MIT(?) miniture railroad club and was passed on to the MIT computer types. Later the tree-huggin, data-freeing, flower children of the 60's started breaking into systems and usurped the term from it's rightful owners. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 01:06:50 GMT Organization: . Lines: 11 Message-ID: <3578ac96.17205590@news.innet.be> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <356E7EAA.2EF94594@stoneweb.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-226-108.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes "Carl R. Friend" told us > By the way, please use the term "cracker" for the sort of jerk > who enjoys breaking into other peoples' computers and getting into > mischief in general. To use the term "hacker" places a time-honoured > title in a _very_ unsavoury light. Ah, a guy to my heart. Too bad the computer-illiterate media have already branded the word "hacker" - we're too late to save its real meaning. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!btnet-peer!btnet!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 02:41:09 GMT Organization: . Lines: 28 Message-ID: <3573c1c2.22625583@news.innet.be> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <356E7EAA.2EF94594@stoneweb.com> <3578ac96.17205590@news.innet.be> <3570B06F.3E6C@anet-stl.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: uu194-7-231-162.unknown.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Jim Everman told us > Luc Van der Veken wrote: > > > > "Carl R. Friend" told us > > > > > By the way, please use the term "cracker" for the sort of jerk > > > who enjoys breaking into other peoples' computers and getting into > > > mischief in general. To use the term "hacker" places a time-honoured > > > title in a _very_ unsavoury light. > > > > Ah, a guy to my heart. Too bad the computer-illiterate media have > > already branded the word "hacker" - we're too late to save its > > real meaning. > > I don't recall "hacker" ever having a savoury rep, regardless of the > amount of effort spent trying to make it one. Seems to me that it > started out meaning pretty much what it does now. Check the New Hacker's Dictionary (also known as "the Jargon file") on it then. It's easy to find on the web (plenty copies of it) - just use your favorite search engine on "jargon file". > On the other hand, being from the north, I've never had much use for > "Crackers" (just kidding). I like the ones with barbeque flavour best. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!europa.clark.net!198.138.0.5!newshub.northeast.verio.net!news.pn.com!nntp.pn.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.optus.net.au!wombat.cs.monash.edu.au!not-for-mail From: bmeyer@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 31 May 1998 05:13:47 +1000 Organization: This is innd taking over... Lines: 18 Message-ID: <6kplpb$85p$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> Reply-To: bmeyer@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Host: modem16.cs.monash.edu.au Neil Franklin writes: >To be precise: evening of the 2nd November 1988. What timezone? And will the Dow go down on 2nd November 1998 because of the (rather justified) fear of someone "celebrating" the anniversay with a repeat stunt? After all, it _did_ go down 10 years after Black, uhm, Tuesday(?) earlier this year (or was it late last year), despite there not being any rational reason to link a date 10 years ago to today.... Bernie -- ============================================================================ "It's a magical world, Hobbes ol' buddy... ...let's go exploring" Calvin's final words, on December 31st, 1995 ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newshub.northeast.verio.net!news.pn.com!nntp.pn.com!uunet!in4.uu.net!nntp.hk.super.net!tst.hk.super.net!not-for-mail From: "Paul D. Walker" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,rec.org.mensa,comp.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 05:23:29 +0800 Organization: HK Computer Solutions Lines: 32 Message-ID: <6kpteg$52f$1@tst.hk.super.net> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <356F3D6A.234D987A@no.spam.stormtech.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: usr3-23.hk.super.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Pepijn Schmitz wrote in message <356F3D6A.234D987A@no.spam.stormtech.com>... >lee1089@kettering.edu wrote: >> >> On Fri, 29 May 1998, David B. Greene wrote: >> [huge snip] >> > In the news recently several hackers testified before Congress that they >> > could bring America's computers to their knees in half an hour or less >> > including the internet. I'm skeptical of the claim as the net was >> > originally designed for survivability under wartime conditions with the >> > ability to bypass damged sections. >> >> Two words, Internet Worm. > >That was back in the days when the Internet had only a couple of >thousand nodes, and they all ran UNIX. It's very unlikely that something >similar could happen again these days, the Internet is too large and >diverse for a single program to bring it to its knees. > >/Pepijn You're obviously unaware of the recent event (less than 9 months ago?) where the Internet's root servers had bad data uploaded to them. Although the root servers were fixed in a matter of hours, some places experienced problems with DNS lookups for more than several days afterwards. The Internet and DNS system has a very small point of failure - the root servers. - Paul ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!fci-se!fci!feeder.qis.net!news.idt.net!ix.netcom.com!flem From: fantom32@hotmail.net (Venigoon) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,rec.org.mensa,comp.misc,comp.security.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 07:07:17 GMT Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 23 Message-ID: <6kqvj7$fkl@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <6kmouu$e5@elf.wang.com> <6ko3k3$ijs@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <3570a1d4.602741088@news.concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pax-ca35-02.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 31 2:07:19 AM CDT 1998 X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 In article <3570a1d4.602741088@news.concentric.net>, cauce.nospam@vo.cnchost.com wrote: >See ye here, fantom32@hotmail.net (Venigoon) crafted the following words: > >>In article <6kmouu$e5@elf.wang.com>, merittj@wangfed.com (Jim Meritt) wrote: >>>In article <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu>, daveg@XOUT.u.washington.edu > >>>says... >>> >>>>In the news recently several hackers testified before Congress that they >>>>could bring America's computers to their knees in half an hour or less >>>>including the internet. > >This news story is the lead cover article on the May 25 print issue of Internet >week, available on the web at: > > http://pubs.cmpnet.com/internetwk/news/news0522-7.htm > Thanx for the pointer, appreciated. > >All email sent to the address used for this post is deleted unread >(although headers may be used in my spam filters). To reach my real >email box, send to personal@ at the above domain. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!140.142.64.3!news.u.washington.edu!dpeschel From: dpeschel@u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 31 May 1998 07:16:47 GMT Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Lines: 36 Message-ID: <6kr04v$1sok$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <3578ac96.17205590@news.innet.be> <3570B06F.3E6C@anet-stl.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: saul7.u.washington.edu X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 896599007 62228 (None) 140.142.64.4 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-User: dpeschel In article , wrote: >How old are you? I'm but 20 and I know the origin of "hacker". A Hacker is >one who creates hacks. A hack is a piece of code (or other engineering not >necessarily even having to do with computers) that is compact, ingenious, >does what it's supposed to do, doesn't break anything else, is fast, etc. In watchmakers' jargon, "the hack" is a mechanism that stops the second hand on a (mechanical) watch when the winding crown is pulled out to set the time. An example of usage would be, "Your watch is not fitted with the hack -- some movements newer than yours were." (This is current usage -- it's a paraphrase of what I heard a few weeks ago when I inquired about a watch I just got.) I have no idea if this term shares a similar etymology, but the parallels in meaning are provocative -- it's a piece of engineering, it's compact (since _anything_ in a mechanical wristwatch is compact), it's probably ingenious, and I assume the last few qualities apply. It may or may not be elegant; I can't say since I don't know exactly how it works. One difference in usage is that it is apparently always "the hack," never "this particular hack," with the meaning unstated. >IIRC it's origin lies deep within the MIT(?) miniture railroad club and >was passed on to the MIT computer types. Later the tree-huggin, >data-freeing, flower children of the 60's started breaking into systems >and usurped the term from it's rightful owners. That's probably true (as much as we can trace the origins of these words). I wouldn't necessarily pin the blame on the "flower children," but the word _has_ changed in meaning. I too try to be as old-fashioned as possible when I use the word "hack" or its relatives. -- Derek ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!europa.clark.net!198.138.0.5!newshub.northeast.verio.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail From: viro@steklov.math.psu.edu (Alexander Viro) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 31 May 1998 09:12:54 -0400 Organization: -ENOENT Lines: 23 Approved: Who cares? Message-ID: <6krl0m$uq@steklov.math.psu.edu> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <3578ac96.17205590@news.innet.be> <3570B06F.3E6C@anet-stl.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: steklov.math.psu.edu In article , wrote: >On Sat, 30 May 1998, Jim Everman wrote: [snip] >How old are you? I'm but 20 and I know the origin of "hacker". A Hacker is >one who creates hacks. A hack is a piece of code (or other engineering not >necessarily even having to do with computers) that is compact, ingenious, >does what it's supposed to do, doesn't break anything else, is fast, etc. >IIRC it's origin lies deep within the MIT(?) miniture railroad club and >was passed on to the MIT computer types. More or less right. > Later the tree-huggin, >data-freeing, flower children of the 60's started breaking into systems >and usurped the term from it's rightful owners. Sigh... US media and school system at their best... Just from curiosity - what was the source of your, erm, deep knowledge? TV? Some tabloid? Style is about right for them... Level of accuracy - too. -- My theory is that someone's Emacs crashed on a very early version of Linux while reading alt.flame and the resulting unholy combination of Elisp and Minix code somehow managed to bootstrap itself and take on an independent existence. -- James Raynard in c.u.b.f.m on nature of Albert Cahalan ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!cara.demon.co.uk!user From: peter@cara.demon.co.uk (Peter Ceresole) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 10:15:42 +0100 Organization: none Message-ID: References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <6kplpb$85p$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: cara.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: cara.demon.co.uk:158.152.17.67 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 896606101 nnrp-01:13799 NO-IDENT cara.demon.co.uk:158.152.17.67 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Lines: 11 In article , Neil Franklin wrote: >those that crack copy protection and license enforcing >systems that hobble legitimate users to protect the vendors What "legitimate users" would those be, then? The correct word is "thieves", surely? -- Peter ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!u3.farm.idt.net!not-for-mail From: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers Date: 31 May 1998 10:28:34 GMT Organization: IDT Internet Services Lines: 28 Message-ID: <6krbci$sr9@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <6kplpb$85p$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: u3.farm.idt.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961025] In alt.folklore.computers Neil Franklin wrote: : bmeyer@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au writes: [...] : Buffer overflow Bugs still exist. : Back doors still exist. : Bad Password still exist. : Crashers* still exist. According to comp.risks, the previous M$ Internet Explorer release, as if this application isn't buggy enough, had a nasty buffer overflow bug where any URL longer than 256 characters would insert the extra characters into the code following the buffer (either the buffer was adjacent to the code segment or code and data were blithely mixed together). The result is that one could easily key in machine language instructions just by appending them to the end of a 256-character URL. This was discussed around the same time as the F0 0F Pentium/Pentium II bug that would halt the processor whether it was in protected mode or not. [...] : WinCE car, crashing soon on a road near you Yes, it is certainly something to "wince" about. Only M$ would think of putting such a bloated OS on a palmtop or embedded system. -- Nick nickz@tribeca.ios.com IC XC + NI KA ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!blackbush.xlink.net!newsfeed.ecrc.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!romana.davros.org!on-the-train.demon.co.uk!clive From: "Clive D.W. Feather" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,rec.org.mensa,comp.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 10:52:43 +0100 Organization: Demon Internet Message-ID: References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <356F3D6A.234D987A@no.spam.stormtech.com> <6kpteg$52f$1@tst.hk.super.net> Reply-To: "Clive D.W. Feather" NNTP-Posting-Host: romana.davros.org X-NNTP-Posting-Host: romana.davros.org:194.217.240.35 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 896615155 nnrp-11:15536 NO-IDENT romana.davros.org:194.217.240.35 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike (32) Version 4.00 beta 3 <81yImECxEkLwWkbKTSiEkLA3nC> Lines: 23 In article <6kpteg$52f$1@tst.hk.super.net>, Paul D. Walker writes >>It's very unlikely that something >>similar could happen again these days, the Internet is too large and >>diverse for a single program to bring it to its knees. >You're obviously unaware of the recent event (less than 9 months ago?) where >the Internet's root servers had bad data uploaded to them. Although the >root servers were fixed in a matter of hours, some places experienced >problems with DNS lookups for more than several days afterwards. > >The Internet and DNS system has a very small point of failure - the root >servers. An even better point of attack is the routing tables. Clive "see .sig for details" Feather -- Clive D.W. Feather | Regulation Officer, LINX | Work: Tel: +44 1733 705000 | (on secondment from | Home: Fax: +44 1733 353929 | Demon Internet) | Written on my laptop; please observe the Reply-To address ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!news.ultranet.com!d15 From: jmfbahxx@ma.ultranet.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Sun, 31 May 98 10:58:52 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 36 Message-ID: <6krg78$89g$1@ligarius.ultra.net> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <356E7EAA.2EF94594@stoneweb.com> <3578ac96.17205590@news.innet.be> <3570B06F.3E6C@anet-stl.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: d15.dial-14.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 31 May 1998 11:51:04 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 In article , wrote: >On Sat, 30 May 1998, Jim Everman wrote: > >> Luc Van der Veken wrote: >> > >> > "Carl R. Friend" told us >> > >> > > By the way, please use the term "cracker" for the sort of jerk >> > > who enjoys breaking into other peoples' computers and getting into >> > > mischief in general. To use the term "hacker" places a time-honoured >> > > title in a _very_ unsavoury light. >> > >> > Ah, a guy to my heart. Too bad the computer-illiterate media have >> > already branded the word "hacker" - we're too late to save its >> > real meaning. >> >> I don't recall "hacker" ever having a savoury rep, regardless of the >> amount of effort spent trying to make it one. Seems to me that it >> started out meaning pretty much what it does now. >> >> On the other hand, being from the north, I've never had much use for >> "Crackers" (just kidding). > >How old are you? I'm but 20 and I know the origin of "hacker". A Hacker is >one who creates hacks. A hack is a piece of code (or other engineering not >necessarily even having to do with computers) that is compact, ingenious, >does what it's supposed to do, doesn't break anything else, is fast, etc. >IIRC it's origin lies deep within the MIT(?) miniture railroad club and >was passed on to the MIT computer types. Later the tree-huggin, >data-freeing, flower children of the 60's started breaking into systems >and usurped the term from it's rightful owners. > Harumph...I suggest you rethink that last line. /BAH ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!korova.insync.net!uunet!in5.uu.net!news.pyramid.com!not-for-mail From: lstowell@pyrtech.mis.pyramid.com (Lon Stowell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 31 May 1998 11:48:17 -0700 Organization: Pyramid Technology Corporation Lines: 19 Message-ID: <6ks8lh$581@pyrtech.mis.pyramid.com> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6kplpb$85p$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> <6krbci$sr9@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pyrtech.mis.pyramid.com In article <6krbci$sr9@nnrp4.farm.idt.net>, wrote: > >According to comp.risks, the previous M$ Internet Explorer release, as if >this application isn't buggy enough, had a nasty buffer overflow bug where >any URL longer than 256 characters would insert the extra characters into >the code following the buffer (either the buffer was adjacent to the code >segment or code and data were blithely mixed together). The result is >that one could easily key in machine language instructions just by >appending them to the end of a 256-character URL. This was discussed >around the same time as the F0 0F Pentium/Pentium II bug that would halt >the processor whether it was in protected mode or not. Not a particularly accurate description of the RES:// type href parameter. Follow-ups redirected, O/S wars are almost always fought solely by soldiers unfamiliar with the territory. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!206.109.1.106!ultraneo.neosoft.com!newsfeed.interlog.com!news.interlog.com!not-for-mail From: karl mamer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,rec.org.mensa,comp.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 31 May 1998 11:50:50 -0400 Organization: Interlog Internet Services -Voice (416) 975-2655 -Data 515-1414 Lines: 19 Message-ID: <6kru8q$l73@shell1.interlog.com> References: <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell1.interlog.com NNTP-Posting-Time: 31 May 1998 15:50:51 GMT I remember once reading about this computer in a newspaper a political party in canada mails around from time to time... The Michael Journal... sort of the house organ of a party called Social Credit. It mostly complains about taxation. Anyway, they had an article about this belgium computer system being the anti-christ. I faxed the editor of the Michael Journal with my resume. I asked him if he could forward it to these computer makers and apply for a job for me. I also inquired if maybe they knew about any companies making satanic point-of-sale systems... if so, forward my resume to them too. -- "Even now he sulks like Achilles in his tent!" Visit the Conspiracy Arc-Hive! http://www.netizen.org/Arc-Hive ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!europa.clark.net!208.134.241.18!newsfeed.internetmci.com!192.232.20.2!malgudi.oar.net!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.anet-stl.com!not-for-mail From: Jim Everman Newsgroups: alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 13:53:22 -0500 Organization: Very good. Lines: 55 Message-ID: <3571A722.4730@anet-stl.com> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <3578ac96.17205590@news.innet.be> <3570B06F.3E6C@anet-stl.com> <6krl0m$uq@steklov.math.psu.edu> Reply-To: everman@anet-stl.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp176.anet-stl.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.anet-stl.com 896650825 12305 209.83.129.176 (31 May 1998 21:40:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.anet-stl.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 May 1998 21:40:25 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Alexander Viro wrote: > > In article , > wrote: > >On Sat, 30 May 1998, Jim Everman wrote: > [snip] ************************************************************************ Hey! If you're gonna snip everything I wrote, don't you think you should perhaps clip my name also? (Jim Everman) ************************************************************************ > >How old are you? I'm but 20 and I know the origin of "hacker". A Hacker is > >one who creates hacks. A hack is a piece of code (or other engineering not > >necessarily even having to do with computers) that is compact, ingenious, > >does what it's supposed to do, doesn't break anything else, is fast, etc. > >IIRC it's origin lies deep within the MIT(?) miniture railroad club and > >was passed on to the MIT computer types. > More or less right. > > Later the tree-huggin, > >data-freeing, flower children of the 60's started breaking into systems > >and usurped the term from it's rightful owners. > Sigh... US media and school system at their best... Just from > curiosity - what was the source of your, erm, deep knowledge? TV? Some > tabloid? Style is about right for them... Level of accuracy - too. Just for the record, even though I actualy did not contribute to *why* "hacker" is a derogatory term, I was there when it happened (working with computers since 1960, first "pc" in 1978, charter subscriber to Byte, took first Fortran course taught at local college, etc). Yes, it started as a benign term for computer enthusiasts - akin to "ham" for radio amateurs - but it was almost immediately taken by the media/public to mean "disruptive hacker". My contention is that no matter how much we would like to change the meaning back to something nice, it isn't likely to happen. I'm also not even sure I personaly agree with your definition of "hack". I consider it more like the engineering term "kludge". They are quickly implemented and do the job, but in general a quick and dirty solution that may or may not be error free. (And I know a lot of engineers that would be pretty pissed if you called thier kludges kludges). -- Jim Everman mailto:everman@Anet-STL.com http://webusers.Anet-STL.com/~everman/ Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!europa.clark.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!nyd.news.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!iagnet.net!iagnet.net!news.bright.net!not-for-mail From: deke.spamblock@generous.net Newsgroups: alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 15:13:28 GMT Organization: GenerousCity is a virtue - find romance at http://generous.net Lines: 40 Message-ID: <3571729b.84336814@news.bright.net> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <3578ac96.17205590@news.innet.be> <3570B06F.3E6C@anet-stl.com> <6kr04v$1sok$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: paul-cas2-cs-34.dial.bright.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 On 31 May 1998 07:16:47 GMT, dpeschel@u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) wrote: >>IIRC it's origin lies deep within the MIT(?) miniture railroad club and >>was passed on to the MIT computer types. Later the tree-huggin, >>data-freeing, flower children of the 60's started breaking into systems >>and usurped the term from it's rightful owners. >That's probably true (as much as we can trace the origins of these words). >I wouldn't necessarily pin the blame on the "flower children," but the word >_has_ changed in meaning. I too try to be as old-fashioned as possible when >I use the word "hack" or its relatives. I think it goes further back than that. There were hack writers long before there were computer hackers. Hired guns, they were. This dates further back to hacks which were hired horses, hack being short for hackney. Hackney was actually a breed of horse developed for this purpose, and they got their name from Hackney, a borough of London. And a hackamore is a halter in which you can lower a broad band over the horse's eyes. So much for programming with your eyes shut.... ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 15:33:46 GMT Organization: . Lines: 39 Message-ID: <35717525.616776@news.innet.be> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <356E7EAA.2EF94594@stoneweb.com> <3578ac96.17205590@news.innet.be> <3570B06F.3E6C@anet-stl.com> <3573c1c2.22625583@news.innet.be> <3570CC36.2A87@anet-stl.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-226-16.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Jim Everman told us > What you need > to do is go back to early editions of _Byte_ (or maybe _Dr. Dobbs_) > when the term first came into use. Don't take this wrong, I like > the term also. > > If I can make a good guess about the year I may try to look it up. > I have all the old issues of _Byte_ and I know it was a big issue for > a while. Please try to, I'm getting curious (and I don't have any issues from before the late eighties/early nineties). The jargon file isn't that young either - it was started by Raphael Finkel at Stanford in 1975. Some terms in it date back considerably earlier (at least back to the early 1960s), but I don't know if "hacker" falls into that cathegory. The file's definition of "hacker" runs, at least imho, somewhat parallel with that of "guru" - with a guru being one that explains how to do it, a resource of information you can turn to; and a hacker being one that does it. Neither is something you can just appoint yourself to be - the term for that is "bogus". > Georgia Crackers or Florida Crackers? (Perhaps I should ask if you are > aware that Cracker is a slang term for certain USAian southerners?) I didn't. Gotta remember this. -- In keeping with current net realities TRN will be modified to give the following warning before you post- >This program posts news to thousands of spammers throughout the entire >civilized world. The resulting spam you will receive will cost the >net hundreds if not thousands of dollars to send to you. Please be >sure you know what you are doing. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!ubnnews.unisource.ch!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter.cosy.sbg.ac.at!news.cs.utwente.nl!newsfeed.eris.dera.gov.uk!dera!delos!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 17:18:48 GMT Organization: . Message-ID: <35748cde.6689819@news.innet.be> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <3578ac96.17205590@news.innet.be> <3570B06F.3E6C@anet-stl.com> <6kr04v$1sok$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <3571729b.84336814@news.bright.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: uu194-7-231-11.unknown.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Lines: 67 deke.spamblock@generous.net told us > On 31 May 1998 07:16:47 GMT, dpeschel@u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) wrote: > >That's probably true (as much as we can trace the origins of these words). > >I wouldn't necessarily pin the blame on the "flower children," but the word > >_has_ changed in meaning. I too try to be as old-fashioned as possible when > >I use the word "hack" or its relatives. > > I think it goes further back than that. > > There were hack writers long before there were computer hackers. Hired guns, > they were. I thought they were called "hacks", not "hackers". > This dates further back to hacks which were hired horses, hack being short for > hackney. Hackney was actually a breed of horse developed for this purpose, and > they got their name from Hackney, a borough of London. > > And a hackamore is a halter in which you can lower a broad band over the horse's > eyes. So much for programming with your eyes shut.... "Hackamore" is believed to come from Spanish "jáquima", literally "bridle". It's a bridle with a loop being tightened about the nose in place of a bit (I'm not pretending to know everything, I just copied it from a dictionary ;) If I'm not mistaken, a "hacker" or "holzhacker" is also (in German - but my knowledge of German is far from perfect) someone who uses an axe to chop down trees. In Dutch that becomes "houthakker", coming from the verb "(hout)hakken", "to chop (wood)". "Hakken" in Dutch must be very closely related (at least) to the Middle English "hakken", of which "to hack" descended. According to the jargon file, the word "hacker" originally meant someone who uses an axe to make furniture, which indicates an origin in that direction, but I haven't been able to find any other reference to this meaning. Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 10th ed. gives four meanings (of which nr 2 seems to be the exact opposite of how we use the word, but thanks to the reference to tennis I do see an analogy with using an axe ;) > hacker \8ha-k0r\ noun (14th century) > 1 : one that hacks > 2 : a person who is inexperienced or unskilled at a particular activity (a tennis hacker) > 3 : an expert at programming and solving problems with a computer > 4 : a person who illegally gains access to and sometimes tampers with information in a computer system My personal understanding of the computerese meaning of the word comes closest to nr 3, but it's not exactly it yet. The first meaning M-W gives for "cracker" is "a bragging liar : BOASTER", which I find to suit computer crackers and self-appointed hackers perfectly. -- In keeping with current net realities TRN will be modified to give the following warning before you post- >This program posts news to thousands of spammers throughout the entire >civilized world. The resulting spam you will receive will cost the >net hundreds if not thousands of dollars to send to you. Please be >sure you know what you are doing. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!fci-se!fci!europa.clark.net!205.252.116.205!howland.erols.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail From: viro@steklov.math.psu.edu (Alexander Viro) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 31 May 1998 19:33:36 -0400 Organization: -ENOENT Lines: 26 Approved: Who cares? Message-ID: <6kspch$21d@steklov.math.psu.edu> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6krl0m$uq@steklov.math.psu.edu> <3571A722.4730@anet-stl.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: steklov.math.psu.edu In article <3571A722.4730@anet-stl.com>, Jim Everman wrote: >Alexander Viro wrote: >> >> In article , >> wrote: >> >On Sat, 30 May 1998, Jim Everman wrote: >> [snip] > > >************************************************************************ > Hey! If you're gonna snip everything I wrote, don't you think you >should > perhaps clip my name also? (Jim Everman) > >************************************************************************ AAARGH! Ouch! My apologies. I was really low on caffeine. -- My theory is that someone's Emacs crashed on a very early version of Linux while reading alt.flame and the resulting unholy combination of Elisp and Minix code somehow managed to bootstrap itself and take on an independent existence. -- James Raynard in c.u.b.f.m on nature of Albert Cahalan ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!194.25.2.138!newsfeed00.btx.dtag.de!news.btx.dtag.de!not-for-mail From: Thilo.Reichelt@t-online.de (Thilo Reichelt) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 31 May 1998 20:11:29 GMT Lines: 15 Message-ID: <6ksdhh$756$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <3578ac96.17205590@news.innet.be> <3570B06F.3E6C@anet-stl.com> <6kr04v$1sok$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <3571729b.84336814@news.bright.net> <35748cde.6689819@news.innet.be> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sender: 0893089296-0001@t-online.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold [de]C-DT (Win16; I) Luc Van der Veken wrote: > > If I'm not mistaken, a "hacker" or "holzhacker" is also (in > German - but my knowledge of German is far from perfect) someone > who uses an axe to chop down trees. In Dutch that becomes > "houthakker", coming from the verb "(hout)hakken", "to chop > (wood)". "Hakken" in Dutch must be very closely related (at > least) to the Middle English "hakken", of which "to hack" > descended. > Correct. "Holzhacker" is someone chopping down trees. Nowadays more likely using a chainsaw, but the term has stuck. It is has regional flavour, being used mostly in the south. "Hacker" alone will not being recognised as meanigful. ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 31 May 1998 21:13:02 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 88 Message-ID: References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <356E7EAA.2EF94594@stoneweb.com> <3578ac96.17205590@news.innet.be> <3570B06F.3E6C@anet-stl.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 writes: > On Sat, 30 May 1998, Jim Everman wrote: > > Luc Van der Veken wrote: > > > "Carl R. Friend" told us > > > > By the way, please use the term "cracker" for the sort of jerk > > > > who enjoys breaking into other peoples' computers and getting into > > > > mischief in general. To use the term "hacker" places a time-honoured > > > > title in a _very_ unsavoury light. > > > Ah, a guy to my heart. Too bad the computer-illiterate media have > > > already branded the word "hacker" - we're too late to save its > > > real meaning. > > I don't recall "hacker" ever having a savoury rep, regardless of the > > amount of effort spent trying to make it one. Seems to me that it > > started out meaning pretty much what it does now. > > On the other hand, being from the north, I've never had much use for > > "Crackers" (just kidding). > How old are you? I'm but 20 and I know the origin of "hacker". A Hacker is > one who creates hacks. A hack is a piece of code (or other engineering not > necessarily even having to do with computers) that is compact, ingenious, > does what it's supposed to do, doesn't break anything else, is fast, etc. Actually it is even more general that this: hacking any ingenious use of technology for an purpose it was not intended for. Using an antelope thighbone to kill other antelopes may well be one of the best (and certainly earliest) hacks of all times. BTW, alt.hackers brings regular reports of hacks, many of them real-life (non-computer and non-job-related) ones. > IIRC it's origin lies deep within the MIT(?) miniture railroad club and > was passed on to the MIT computer types. Yep. This an classical MIT TMRC jargon term. Try: Eric S Raymond (editor), The New Hacker's Dictionary MIT Press, 1993, ISBN 0-262-18154-1 (hard) or 0-262-68079-3 (pbk) Or online: http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/Jargon_File/jarg400.txt > Later the tree-huggin, > data-freeing, flower children of the 60's started breaking into systems > and usurped the term from it's rightful owners. Here I have to disagree with you. The hacker culture right from its beginning (actually in TMRC before they even found their first computer) had an "break and enter for fun and discovery" attitude (known as "vadding", see above reference, also see the MIT locksmithing and lockpicking culture). Actually the first computer (miss-)used by the TMRC (an IBM EAM) was discovered while vadding. Later on when using computers they quickly took up phreaking. Try the first section of: Steven Levi, Hackers - Heroes of the Computer Revolution Dell Publishing, 1984, ISBN 0-440-13405-6 The guys everyone hates today did not usurp the term they simply used the same techniques without keeping to the "hacker ethic". The first reference above contains the entry "dark side hacker" to describe them. OTOH, using the term cracker for the dark side hackers _is_ usurping the term. The original crackers were those who (usually on home micros) broke "copy pretection" systems that harmed legitimate users to protect the vendors (todays dongles are harmless in comparison what was tried in the late 70s and early 80s). This again was an originally good thing that quickly aquired an dark side, the software pirate who craks to be able to distribute pirated copies, known in cracker circles as "warez". Perhaps it is becoming time for hackers to own up to the real history and accept that dark side hacking is their own "black sheep in the family". And stop trying to rewrite history, a behaviour fitting for the suits, but not for hackers. Now running for the flame proof cellar :-) -- private: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ office: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ WinCE car, crashing soon on a road near you ###### jargon file moved to: http://neil.franklin.ch/Jargon_File/jarg400.txt home page generally moved to: http://neil.franklin.ch/ ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk (Robert Billing) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Sun, 31 May 98 21:26:41 GMT Message-ID: <896650001snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <3578ac96.17205590@news.innet.be> <3570B06F.3E6C@anet-stl.com> <6kr04v$1sok$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <3571729b.84336814@news.bright.net> Reply-To: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 896651340 mail2news:28447 mail2news mail2news.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mail2News-Path: news.demon.net!post-12.mail.demon.net!post.mail.demon.net![158.152.132.30] X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.29 Lines: 27 In article <3571729b.84336814@news.bright.net> deke.spamblock@generous.net writes: > This dates further back to hacks which were hired horses, hack being short for > hackney. Hackney was actually a breed of horse developed for this purpose, and > they got their name from Hackney, a borough of London. ...where IIRC Hackney Carriages, the first taxis, came from > And a hackamore is a halter in which you can lower a broad band over the horse's > eyes. So much for programming with your eyes shut.... No, a Hackamore is a bitless bridle, which works by pressure on the horse's jaw, often useful for retrieving the situation after some d*** fool has hurt the horse with bad bitting. What you are thinking of is a common driving bridle, see the pictures on my website. Come to think of it, retrieving the situation after some d*** fool has wrecked everything is often what hacking is about... -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 31 May 1998 21:28:33 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <6kplpb$85p$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 peter@cara.demon.co.uk (Peter Ceresole) writes: > In article , > Neil Franklin wrote: > >those that crack copy protection and license enforcing > >systems that hobble legitimate users to protect the vendors > What "legitimate users" would those be, then? The correct word is > "thieves", surely? With legitimate users I was meaning those who have payed for an official license of an piece of software, and then have to suffer from malfunctioning copy protection systems that are there to prevent _other_ people from pirating. Case example: 2 months ago we at ETHZ had our licences (yearly renewable) for Form.Z (a CAD package) run out. So we send for an license extension, payed for it, got key codes and they did not work. Result: lots of back and fro, wasted time, and the software ceased working and disconvenienced the users while the hopeless suits at the vendors official importer tried to construct codes to let us work with software we have payed for. If I had had the neccessary knowledge and time I would have done a crack on said software. So all I can do is advise people to avoid this software, unless you like adding more trouble to your life. While I dispise of pirates who cheat vendors out of their share of development cost amortisation (it is the equivalent of not paying train/bus fares), I dispise far more vendors that harm paying users, to try to prevent piracy (unsuccessfully, as the warez succeed in cracking and pirating anyway). We users have to trust the vendors that we are getting working software for our money, at least they should trust us that we wont parate the stuff we are paying for. Such enforcement schemes are for me the major reason to avoid commercial software whenever possible. Thanks for GNU. -- private: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ office: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ WinCE car, crashing soon on a road near you ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed1.news.luth.se!luth.se!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!howland.erols.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!news From: Terry Richards Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 11:31:22 -0400 Organization: Terry Richards Software Lines: 116 Message-ID: <3572C94A.2AAC@idt.net> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <6kplpb$85p$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> Reply-To: trs@idt.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-11.ts-10.hp.idt.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-IDT-v5 (WinNT; U) Neil Franklin wrote: > > Following up on my own post... > > This morning in bed some brain cells started working and produced: > > Neil Franklin writes: > > peter@cara.demon.co.uk (Peter Ceresole) writes: > > > What "legitimate users" would those be, then? The correct word is > > > "thieves", surely? > > > Apropos using the word thieves: Pirates are not thieves!?! > Oh yes they are. > As often as this word is used for them, it is missfitting. The word > thief implies taking something away from an owner, i.e. the owner > _losing_ the _ability_to_use_ an possession. > So, if I take electricity by tying my wires into your house, you still have the ability to use electricity so I am not stealing, right? > Pirates OTOH usually only borrow an data carrier, duplicate it and > then bring it back. Then they start duplicating their copy. Result: > the person who owned that data carrier doesn't lose it. That person > does not lose their ability to use it. And even more to the point > they don't lose their ability to use the software from it! > > As for the software vendor, they also neither lose their master copy, > nor their ability to make and license further copies from it. > But their master copy is now less valuable because they can not sell as many copies of it. The thief has taken that value. > So the word thief is missfitting! > No it isn't. It is completely accurate. > Accepting that piracy is something bad, so what is it, in conventional > terms? For this look at the economic arrangement behind software > licences: development costs split between the licencees. The nearest > thing to this outside the software industry (and related ones such as > books, music, films) would be someone cheating on bus/rail fares by > not buying an ticket. There again fixed operational costs are split > between an estimated amount of users/travelers. > Here in the US, this is known as "theft of service". > So pirates are cheats, not thieves! > > Why is this distinction important? > It isn't. A thief is a thief regardless of the method they use to commit their crime. > Because when fighting pirates the entire propaganda put out by such > groups like BSA or FAST has aimed at trying to get the pirates to view > themselves as thieves (and by negative association to get them to stop > it). This fails because the pirates know they aren't stealing (taking > something away), "I only borrowed the disks". Note that most pirates > do not steal _things_ in real life either. > A theft has occurred even if nothing concrete has been taken. Why does it matter if a thief takes my money before I received it or after I received it. This is like saying that if I take a check out of your mailbox I an not stealing because you never had the check for me to steal. > OTOH design campaigns around the point that pirating is cheating, > like cheating on bus/rail tickets. Make the point that it is as such > unfair towards the _other_ (licenced) software _users_ (_not_ towards > the _vendors_ as they simply raise the license cost, the same as > bus/rail operators do). Look at the types of campaigns the bus/rail > operators do. > It is not that simple. If the operators raise the fairs to cover the cost of theft then they will encourage more people to steal or to use alternative methods of transport. To offset this they will have to raise the fares... > This could have a real chance of reducing piracy (by negative > association with cheating other users, not the vendors for whom the > pirates do not care, "they are all greed driven firms anyway"). > I would find this more beleivable if the thieves only stole from large companies. In fact, they will steal anything that attracts them regardless of who produced it. Not every software company is a Microsoft, a Lotus, or an IBM. > I just doubt seriously that the suits in the software industry have > enough power in their puny brains to see through their own propaganda > fog and recognize this as the path to go forward. > > I only wear my suit to weddings & funerals (and the occasional customer meeting) . > -- > private: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ > office: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ > WinCE car, crashing soon on a road near you -- Terry Richards Terry Richards Software ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.ecrc.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!news.pn.com!nntp.pn.com!uunet!in4.uu.net!news.optus.net.au!wombat.cs.monash.edu.au!not-for-mail From: bmeyer@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 1 Jun 1998 12:19:13 +1000 Organization: This is innd taking over... Lines: 20 Message-ID: <6kt331$1q7$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> References: <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <6kplpb$85p$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> Reply-To: bmeyer@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Host: modem02.cs.monash.edu.au Neil Franklin writes: >bmeyer@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au writes: >> After all, it _did_ go down 10 years after Black, uhm, Tuesday(?) earlier >> this year (or was it late last year), despite there not being any >> rational reason to link a date 10 years ago to today.... >Stockbrokers are not rational beings. And the Black Tuesday was part >of their history. OTOH the Internet Worm wasn't. Most Wallstreet >critters will never have heard of it. So let's be very very quiet about it, shall we, lest they pick it up somewhere and I see my investments crumble ;-) Bernie -- ============================================================================ "It's a magical world, Hobbes ol' buddy... ...let's go exploring" Calvin's final words, on December 31st, 1995 ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!uunet!in5.uu.net!news.pyramid.com!not-for-mail From: lstowell@pyrtech.mis.pyramid.com (Lon Stowell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 1 Jun 1998 12:46:03 -0700 Organization: Pyramid Technology Corporation Lines: 11 Message-ID: <6kv0dr$jfp@pyrtech.mis.pyramid.com> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pyrtech.mis.pyramid.com Neil Franklin wrote: >Following up on my own post... > >This morning in bed some brain cells started working and produced: Judging strictly from your posting, all two of them. Now take this crap out of AFU, where neither it nor you have any business posting this. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!nyd.news.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!iagnet.net!iagnet.net!news.uiowa.edu!not-for-mail From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,rec.org.mensa,comp.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 1 Jun 1998 14:44:31 GMT Organization: The University of Iowa Lines: 27 Message-ID: <6kueof$fc0$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> References: <356F3D6A.234D987A@no.spam.stormtech.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu From article <356F3D6A.234D987A@no.spam.stormtech.com>, by Pepijn Schmitz : > lee1089@kettering.edu wrote: > >> Two words, Internet Worm. > > That was back in the days when the Internet had only a couple of > thousand nodes, and they all ran UNIX. It's very unlikely that something > similar could happen again these days, the Internet is too large and > diverse for a single program to bring it to its knees. That was certainly the case 3 years ago, but now, I'm not so sure. Doesn't every machine on earth today run some variant of Windows? Sure, Windows NT is really Microsoft Unix without an AT&T heksher, but everyone else is running Windows 95, right? The economy of scale makes it impossible to imagine successful competition from any other operating system in a free market world, right? Therefore, we live in an evolving monocultural operating system environment, and like any other monoculture, it is incredibly vulnerable. Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu PS: This post was prepared and delivered to USENET without the aid of any Microsoft products. The newsreader software used has a last-modified date of April 1989, running under an 1988 distribution of IBM's AOS operating system. It may not be year 2000 compliant, but it isn't a Microsoft product. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!164.67.42.145!awabi.library.ucla.edu!137.82.194.1!unixg.ubc.ca!alph02.triumf.ca!shoppa From: shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,rec.org.mensa,comp.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 1 Jun 1998 15:07:54 GMT Organization: TRIUMF, Canada's National Meson Facility Lines: 14 Message-ID: <6kug4a$5tb$1@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <356F3D6A.234D987A@no.spam.stormtech.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: alph02.triumf.ca > That was back in the days when the Internet had only a couple of > thousand nodes, and they all ran UNIX. Gees, I was around in those days, and while Unix machines were certainly becoming popular with the lower-end sites, I would've never said that they "all ran Unix". Certainly many of the major network sites were PDP-10's running TOPS-20 or ITS, and many other "when giants walked the earth" machines were among the most well-known. For a non-technical glimpse at what "the Internet" was in those days, the wide variety of machines on the network, and typical uses of the net, I highly recommend Clifford Stoll's _The Cuckoo's Egg_. Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.wli.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsgate.tandem.com!gazette.loc1.tandem.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3572CBD0.43FEDAE0@o.b> From: Rob Organization: New Universal Order X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,rec.org.mensa,comp.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <356F3D6A.234D987A@no.spam.stormtech.com> <6kpteg$52f$1@tst.hk.super.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 5 Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 15:36:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: dhcp-179-89.loc1.tandem.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 08:36:37 PDT Clive D.W. Feather wrote: > An even better point of attack is the routing tables. > You can talk to the routers remotely and take control of them. Enough said. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!204.71.1.51!spamkiller.internetmci.com!news.internetmci.com!not-for-mail From: "david.kalet" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com><6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu><6kplpb$85p$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Lines: 75 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 16:08:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.55.227.194 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 12:08:19 EDT Neil Franklin wrote in message ... >Following up on my own post... > >This morning in bed some brain cells started working and produced: > >Neil Franklin writes: >> peter@cara.demon.co.uk (Peter Ceresole) writes: >> > What "legitimate users" would those be, then? The correct word is >> > "thieves", surely? > > >Apropos using the word thieves: Pirates are not thieves!?! > >As often as this word is used for them, it is missfitting. The word >thief implies taking something away from an owner, i.e. the owner >_losing_ the _ability_to_use_ an possession. > >Pirates OTOH usually only borrow an data carrier, duplicate it and >then bring it back. Then they start duplicating their copy. Result: >the person who owned that data carrier doesn't lose it. That person >does not lose their ability to use it. And even more to the point >they don't lose their ability to use the software from it! > >As for the software vendor, they also neither lose their master copy, >nor their ability to make and license further copies from it. > >So the word thief is missfitting! > > >Accepting that piracy is something bad, so what is it, in conventional >terms? For this look at the economic arrangement behind software >licences: development costs split between the licencees. The nearest >thing to this outside the software industry (and related ones such as >books, music, films) would be someone cheating on bus/rail fares by >not buying an ticket. There again fixed operational costs are split >between an estimated amount of users/travelers. > >So pirates are cheats, not thieves! > > >Why is this distinction important? > >Because when fighting pirates the entire propaganda put out by such >groups like BSA or FAST has aimed at trying to get the pirates to view >themselves as thieves (and by negative association to get them to stop >it). This fails because the pirates know they aren't stealing (taking >something away), "I only borrowed the disks". Note that most pirates >do not steal _things_ in real life either. > >OTOH design campaigns around the point that pirating is cheating, >like cheating on bus/rail tickets. Make the point that it is as such >unfair towards the _other_ (licenced) software _users_ (_not_ towards >the _vendors_ as they simply raise the license cost, the same as >bus/rail operators do). Look at the types of campaigns the bus/rail >operators do. > >This could have a real chance of reducing piracy (by negative >association with cheating other users, not the vendors for whom the >pirates do not care, "they are all greed driven firms anyway"). > >I just doubt seriously that the suits in the software industry have >enough power in their puny brains to see through their own propaganda >fog and recognize this as the path to go forward. > > >-- >private: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ >office: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ >WinCE car, crashing soon on a road near you "Pirates do deprive the company that sells the software of the money they otherwise would have made selling the program....so thieves seems the right term.... ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 01 Jun 1998 16:49:15 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 68 Message-ID: References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <6kplpb$85p$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Following up on my own post... This morning in bed some brain cells started working and produced: Neil Franklin writes: > peter@cara.demon.co.uk (Peter Ceresole) writes: > > What "legitimate users" would those be, then? The correct word is > > "thieves", surely? Apropos using the word thieves: Pirates are not thieves!?! As often as this word is used for them, it is missfitting. The word thief implies taking something away from an owner, i.e. the owner _losing_ the _ability_to_use_ an possession. Pirates OTOH usually only borrow an data carrier, duplicate it and then bring it back. Then they start duplicating their copy. Result: the person who owned that data carrier doesn't lose it. That person does not lose their ability to use it. And even more to the point they don't lose their ability to use the software from it! As for the software vendor, they also neither lose their master copy, nor their ability to make and license further copies from it. So the word thief is missfitting! Accepting that piracy is something bad, so what is it, in conventional terms? For this look at the economic arrangement behind software licences: development costs split between the licencees. The nearest thing to this outside the software industry (and related ones such as books, music, films) would be someone cheating on bus/rail fares by not buying an ticket. There again fixed operational costs are split between an estimated amount of users/travelers. So pirates are cheats, not thieves! Why is this distinction important? Because when fighting pirates the entire propaganda put out by such groups like BSA or FAST has aimed at trying to get the pirates to view themselves as thieves (and by negative association to get them to stop it). This fails because the pirates know they aren't stealing (taking something away), "I only borrowed the disks". Note that most pirates do not steal _things_ in real life either. OTOH design campaigns around the point that pirating is cheating, like cheating on bus/rail tickets. Make the point that it is as such unfair towards the _other_ (licenced) software _users_ (_not_ towards the _vendors_ as they simply raise the license cost, the same as bus/rail operators do). Look at the types of campaigns the bus/rail operators do. This could have a real chance of reducing piracy (by negative association with cheating other users, not the vendors for whom the pirates do not care, "they are all greed driven firms anyway"). I just doubt seriously that the suits in the software industry have enough power in their puny brains to see through their own propaganda fog and recognize this as the path to go forward. -- private: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ office: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ WinCE car, crashing soon on a road near you ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.wli.net!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail From: kaz@cafe.dot.net (Kaz Kylheku) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 18:30:36 GMT Organization: Infowave Wireless Messaging Inc. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <3572f1dc.418080437@207.126.101.81> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <6kplpb$85p$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> <3572C94A.2AAC@idt.net> Reply-To: kaz@cafe.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.239.210.48 X-Trace: 896725620 8EGGZV7/GD230CCEFC usenet53.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 On Mon, 01 Jun 1998 11:31:22 -0400, Terry Richards wrote: >Neil Franklin wrote: >> >> Following up on my own post... >> >> This morning in bed some brain cells started working and produced: >> >> Neil Franklin writes: >> > peter@cara.demon.co.uk (Peter Ceresole) writes: >> > > What "legitimate users" would those be, then? The correct word is >> > > "thieves", surely? >> >> >> Apropos using the word thieves: Pirates are not thieves!?! >> > >Oh yes they are. Well, not exactly thieves, but felons, nevertheless. Certain kinds of copyright infringement is a felony (in the United States). It has to do with the nature of the copying, and the extent to which it was carried out and so on. Whether you call it stealing or something else, it doesn't really matter. A felony is a felony. Of course, in regions that don't subscribe to the international copyright laws, it's not illegal. Though it might not exactly be moral either. :) ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.wli.net!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!server3.netnews.ja.net!news.ox.ac.uk!not-for-mail From: "JB" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 18:49:11 +0100 Organization: Oxford University Lines: 21 Message-ID: <6kupks$jod$1@news.ox.ac.uk> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com><6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu><6kplpb$85p$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: mc79.merton.ox.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 david.kalet wrote in message ... > > >>Following up on my own post... >"Pirates do deprive the company that sells the software of the money they >otherwise would have made selling the program....so thieves seems the right >term.... > But they often wouldn't otherwise have bought the software. This debate is silly and probably off-topic for most of the newsgroups it's posted to, since it isn't at all factual and won't resolve anything. -- John "Thief and ashamed of it" Band: e-mail: john.band[at]merton.ox.ac.uk web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~mert0589 http://www.extraordinary.demon.co.uk "Acetic acid in a sealed tin? Do not accept it. It is not genuine" ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!btnet-peer!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!cara.demon.co.uk!user From: peter@cara.demon.co.uk (Peter Ceresole) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 19:56:23 +0100 Organization: none Message-ID: References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <6kplpb$85p$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: cara.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: cara.demon.co.uk:158.152.17.67 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 896727339 nnrp-03:16905 NO-IDENT cara.demon.co.uk:158.152.17.67 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Lines: 14 In article , Neil Franklin wrote: >While I dispise of pirates who cheat vendors out of their share of >development cost amortisation (it is the equivalent of not paying >train/bus fares), I dispise far more vendors that harm paying users, >to try to prevent piracy (unsuccessfully, as the warez succeed in >cracking and pirating anyway). I think you're talking about a small minority here. Most warez are designed to defraud software companies. It's theft. -- Peter ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.ecrc.net!news.idt.net!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!cara.demon.co.uk!user From: peter@cara.demon.co.uk (Peter Ceresole) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 20:38:36 +0100 Organization: none Message-ID: References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <6kplpb$85p$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: cara.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: cara.demon.co.uk:158.152.17.67 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 896729872 nnrp-08:27027 NO-IDENT cara.demon.co.uk:158.152.17.67 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Lines: 14 In article , Neil Franklin wrote: >As often as this word is used for them, it is missfitting. The word >thief implies taking something away from an owner, i.e. the owner >_losing_ the _ability_to_use_ an possession. This is just nit picking. A software developer develops his product in the reasonable expectation that, if people use it, he will get a return on his effort. Those who use it illegally are denying him a reasonable return on his investment. It's theft. -- Peter ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news-peer.gip.net!news-stkh.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed1.funet.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!learnet.freenet.hut.fi!not-for-mail From: "S. T." Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,rec.org.mensa,comp.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 1 Jun 98 21:45:05 +0300 Organization: Freenet Finland Lines: 30 Message-ID: <357320E1.MD-0.198.no@spam.he.re> References: <6kueof$fc0$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin-0-15.evitech.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroDot-II/AmigaOS 0.198 Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879 (jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu) wrote on 1 Jun 1998 14:44:31 GMT: > From article <356F3D6A.234D987A@no.spam.stormtech.com>, by Pepijn Schmitz : > > lee1089@kettering.edu wrote: > > > >> Two words, Internet Worm. > > > > That was back in the days when the Internet had only a couple of > > thousand nodes, and they all ran UNIX. It's very unlikely that something > > similar could happen again these days, the Internet is too large and > > diverse for a single program to bring it to its knees. > > That was certainly the case 3 years ago, but now, I'm not so sure. > Doesn't every machine on earth today run some variant of Windows? Sure, Not this one. AmigaOS 3.1. Dick size fight: what's the disk size limit on your OS? Anything less than 16 exabytes isn't enough. ;) > Windows NT is really Microsoft Unix without an AT&T heksher, but everyone > else is running Windows 95, right? The economy of scale makes it impossible Wrong. *Almost* everyone, if you believe M$ and sales figures (exactly, Linux isn't sold too much:). > to imagine successful competition from any other operating system in a > free market world, right? Therefore, we live in an evolving monocultural > operating system environment, and like any other monoculture, it is > incredibly vulnerable. We should hope so. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!news From: Terry Richards Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 22:01:06 -0400 Organization: Terry Richards Software Lines: 113 Message-ID: <35735CE2.5FEB@idt.net> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <6kplpb$85p$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> <3572C94A.2AAC@idt.net> Reply-To: trs@idt.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-14.ts-8.hp.idt.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-IDT-v5 (WinNT; U) Neil Franklin wrote: > > Terry Richards writes: > > Neil Franklin wrote: > > > As often as this word is used for them, it is missfitting. The word > > > thief implies taking something away from an owner, i.e. the owner > > > _losing_ the _ability_to_use_ an possession. > > So, if I take electricity by tying my wires into your house, you still > > have the ability to use electricity so I am not stealing, right? > > If you take the electricity, I will not be able to use it. That would > make it an normal case of theft. > You can't "take" electricity. Electricity is the energy carried by indistinguishable electrons. I even have to return the electrons for me to be able to receive the energy (that's why there's two wires). No matter how much power I suck out of your house, you can still continue to use your appliances, lights etc. (Up to the physical limitations of the wiring). So no theft has occurred, right? A hint, don't try this argument on the power company. In just the same way, software is the information carried by indistinguishable bits. > [snip] > > Lessing of value = theft? So building an house that reduces the view from > the windows of yours (and so reducing its value) is theft? > If you do so dishonestly, yes it is. And I can legally demand compensation for that. > Go and look at the definition of theft (here from the OED): > > theft n. (act or instance of) stealing; (Law) dishonest appropriation > of another's property with intent to deprive him of it permanently. > > Nothing about reducing value in there. Particularly in the Law > bit. You are not being deprived of your software, just cheated of some > of your revenue. > And the revenue is not property? > > > licences: development costs split between the licencees. The nearest > > > thing to this outside the software industry (and related ones such as > > > books, music, films) would be someone cheating on bus/rail fares by > > > not buying an ticket. There again fixed operational costs are split > > > between an estimated amount of users/travelers. > > Here in the US, this is known as "theft of service". > > A warning about juristical language: combined terms such as "theft of > service" may suggest to an layman that this has to do with theft, but > any lawyer well tell you that that does not make it theft. > Nonsense. > [snip] > Think of the importance of replicatability of bits vs > non-replicatability of atoms. A service such as running an bus or > train with only partially filled seats is the neares thing to bits in > this respect. > As I said above, the energy carried on electrons is an even closer approximation. If you steal that energy while returning the electrons, you will be charged with theft. > [snip] > > > I just doubt seriously that the suits in the software industry have > > > enough power in their puny brains to see through their own propaganda > > > fog and recognize this as the path to go forward. > > I only wear my suit to weddings & funerals (and the occasional customer > > meeting) . > > OTOH you as an "suit" (hacker-speak for manager) certainly did not get > the argument. Thanks for proving my doubt :-9 (that is tongue in cheek > smiley, started as typo but was so fitting). > I know what a "suit" is. However, I can hardly be described as one when the only person I manage is myself. And I did "get" the argument. I just don't agree with it. > -- > private: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ > office: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ > WinCE car, crashing soon on a road near you -- Terry Richards Terry Richards Software ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 01 Jun 1998 23:55:10 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 135 Message-ID: References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <6kplpb$85p$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> <3572C94A.2AAC@idt.net> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Terry Richards writes: > Neil Franklin wrote: > > As often as this word is used for them, it is missfitting. The word > > thief implies taking something away from an owner, i.e. the owner > > _losing_ the _ability_to_use_ an possession. > So, if I take electricity by tying my wires into your house, you still > have the ability to use electricity so I am not stealing, right? If you take the electricity, I will not be able to use it. That would make it an normal case of theft. > > As for the software vendor, they also neither lose their master copy, > > nor their ability to make and license further copies from it. > But their master copy is now less valuable because they can not sell as > many copies of it. The thief has taken that value. Lessing of value = theft? So building an house that reduces the view from the windows of yours (and so reducing its value) is theft? Go and look at the definition of theft (here from the OED): theft n. (act or instance of) stealing; (Law) dishonest appropriation of another's property with intent to deprive him of it permanently. Nothing about reducing value in there. Particularly in the Law bit. You are not being deprived of your software, just cheated of some of your revenue. > > licences: development costs split between the licencees. The nearest > > thing to this outside the software industry (and related ones such as > > books, music, films) would be someone cheating on bus/rail fares by > > not buying an ticket. There again fixed operational costs are split > > between an estimated amount of users/travelers. > Here in the US, this is known as "theft of service". A warning about juristical language: combined terms such as "theft of service" may suggest to an layman that this has to do with theft, but any lawyer well tell you that that does not make it theft. > > So pirates are cheats, not thieves! > > Why is this distinction important? > It isn't. A thief is a thief regardless of the method they use to commit > their crime. Is method used the entire and only reason to call an linguistical distinction important? What about the need to use different means to combat an evil? That requires recognising that different means are needed, and that comes from recognizing differetn targets. One can only work as precise as ones tools are, language is an tool for thinking (and of course also communication). > > Because when fighting pirates the entire propaganda put out by such > > groups like BSA or FAST has aimed at trying to get the pirates to view > > themselves as thieves (and by negative association to get them to stop > > it). This fails because the pirates know they aren't stealing (taking > > something away), "I only borrowed the disks". Note that most pirates > > do not steal _things_ in real life either. > A theft has occurred even if nothing concrete has been taken. That is exacly not the case: an cheat (or theft of service in legalese) has occured, not an theft. > Why does > it matter if a thief takes my money before I received it or after I > received it. This is like saying that if I take a check out of your > mailbox I an not stealing because you never had the check for me to > steal. My remarks had nothing to do with either timeing, nor about the victim knowing of their loss. Taking a check would deprive the victim of an thing, that would make this case theft, not cheat. Think of the importance of replicatability of bits vs non-replicatability of atoms. A service such as running an bus or train with only partially filled seats is the neares thing to bits in this respect. > > OTOH design campaigns around the point that pirating is cheating, > > like cheating on bus/rail tickets. Make the point that it is as such > > unfair towards the _other_ (licenced) software _users_ (_not_ towards > > the _vendors_ as they simply raise the license cost, the same as > > bus/rail operators do). Look at the types of campaigns the bus/rail > > operators do. > It is not that simple. The BSA and MS have in the past claimed this (that this drives up license cost or they would be able to lower license cost respectively, if all users would buy licences). > If the operators raise the fairs to cover the > cost of theft then they will encourage more people to steal or to use > alternative methods of transport. To offset this they will have to raise > the fares... This sure happens (in buses and software). But it does not devaluate my argument (piracy having the nature of cheat, not theft). > > This could have a real chance of reducing piracy (by negative > > association with cheating other users, not the vendors for whom the > > pirates do not care, "they are all greed driven firms anyway"). > I would find this more beleivable if the thieves only stole from large > companies. In fact, they will steal anything that attracts them > regardless of who produced it. Not every software company is a > Microsoft, a Lotus, or an IBM. Here I agree fully with you. I was not out to justify pirates (whom I dislike) I was just showing the ways they justify their deeds to themselves, and so, what type of thinking an successfull anti-piracy campaign must overcome. > > I just doubt seriously that the suits in the software industry have > > enough power in their puny brains to see through their own propaganda > > fog and recognize this as the path to go forward. > I only wear my suit to weddings & funerals (and the occasional customer > meeting) . OTOH you as an "suit" (hacker-speak for manager) certainly did not get the argument. Thanks for proving my doubt :-9 (that is tongue in cheek smiley, started as typo but was so fitting). -- private: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ office: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ WinCE car, crashing soon on a road near you ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!203.97.37.6!clear.net.nz!status.gen.nz!not-for-mail From: "Bill Keesing" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,rec.org.mensa,comp.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 23:56:50 +1200 Organization: Internet Company of New Zealand Lines: 26 Message-ID: <6ku4pl$3oj$1@news.iconz.co.nz> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.48.10.26 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 lee1089@kettering.edu wrote in message ... >On Fri, 29 May 1998, David B. Greene wrote: >[huge snip] >> In the news recently several hackers testified before Congress that they >> could bring America's computers to their knees in half an hour or less >> including the internet. I'm skeptical of the claim as the net was >> originally designed for survivability under wartime conditions with the >> ability to bypass damged sections. > >Two words, Internet Worm. Don't forget "Network Solution" ----- Bill Keesing Usual disclaimers blah personal opinions blah blah Remove screw.spammers to reply http://users.iconz.co.nz/keesing ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 01 Jun 1998 23:59:50 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com><6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu><6kplpb$85p$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 "david.kalet" writes: > Neil Franklin wrote in message ... > >Accepting that piracy is something bad, so what is it, in conventional > >terms? For this look at the economic arrangement behind software > >licences: development costs split between the licencees. The nearest > >thing to this outside the software industry (and related ones such as > >books, music, films) would be someone cheating on bus/rail fares by > >not buying an ticket. There again fixed operational costs are split > >between an estimated amount of users/travelers. > > > >So pirates are cheats, not thieves! > > "Pirates do deprive the company that sells the software of the money they > otherwise would have made selling the program....so thieves seems the right > term.... People riding an bus/railway without an ticket are also depriving the company that runs the service of the money they otherwise would have made selling an ticket...that is cheating, not stealing...so tthieves doesn't seem the right term.... Note: the discussion is not about whether it is damaging (it is), nor about legality (it is not), nor about right (is is not), but about what the nature of piracy is. Particularly about understanding the pirates thinking, and how this relates to fighting piracy. -- private: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ office: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ WinCE car, crashing soon on a road near you ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 02 Jun 1998 00:04:19 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com><6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu><6kplpb$85p$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> <6kupks$jod$1@news.ox.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 "JB" writes: > >"Pirates do deprive the company that sells the software of the money they > >otherwise would have made selling the program....so thieves seems the right > >term.... > But they often wouldn't otherwise have bought the software. > This debate is silly and probably off-topic for most of the newsgroups it's > posted to, since it isn't at all factual and won't resolve anything. That is one of the rationalisations pirates use that I overlooked in my text. Thanks for reminding me. IMHO it still doesn't make piracy acceptable, not even in these cases. If you use it pay your share to it being made. If you don't want it enough to justify paying your share, don't use it. -- private: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ office: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ WinCE car, crashing soon on a road near you ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 02 Jun 1998 00:07:06 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <6kplpb$85p$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 peter@cara.demon.co.uk (Peter Ceresole) writes: > In article , > Neil Franklin wrote: > > >As often as this word is used for them, it is missfitting. The word > >thief implies taking something away from an owner, i.e. the owner > >_losing_ the _ability_to_use_ an possession. > > This is just nit picking. Nope. See the argument about precision a few postust of mine upwards. > A software developer develops his product in the > reasonable expectation that, if people use it, he will get a return on his > effort. Those who use it illegally are denying him a reasonable return on > his investment. I fully agree. But that was not the point I was discussing. > It's theft. Nope, it is cheat. An different beast. -- private: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ office: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ WinCE car, crashing soon on a road near you ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.ecrc.net!europa.clark.net!204.253.208.250!korova.insync.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.optus.net.au!wombat.cs.monash.edu.au!not-for-mail From: bmeyer@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 2 Jun 1998 00:27:39 +1000 Organization: This is innd taking over... Lines: 42 Message-ID: <6kudor$3ig$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> References: <6kplpb$85p$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> Reply-To: bmeyer@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Host: modem02.cs.monash.edu.au peter@cara.demon.co.uk (Peter Ceresole) writes: >Neil Franklin wrote: >>those that crack copy protection and license enforcing >>systems that hobble legitimate users to protect the vendors >What "legitimate users" would those be, then? The correct word is >"thieves", surely? I wouldn't _fully_ support that point of view. There used to be a whole lot of software out there that needed dongles. How do you run that in a DOS emulator on a Mac? How do you run 5 different such programs on the same machine? These days, dongles seem to have been replaced by requiring the original CD-ROM. I have a nice Dual PPro-200, which I put the 3Dfx card into, and then went on to play Quake2 for linux. Oops --- "you must have the original CD mounted somewhere"..... yeah, sure. This machine doesn't _have_ a CD-ROM! So I had to go and cheat the software, which would technically make me a "cracker", even though I didn't copy it for anybody else (in case you wonder: Use emacs to change the string "/etc/mtab" in the executable to "/etc/mtub", create a file /etc/mtub that claims that you have the CD mounted on the directory where you actually _copied_ it, and away you go....). Similar thing with the Encyclopedia Britannica CD. Their data files are compressed in some undocumented way, but apart from that, they are using a simple WAIS server. Now, if someone were to figure out how to transform their files into a format that a linux WAIS server can understand, I would be doing so in a flash, and be using it on my main system. As it stands, I had to write a couple of CGI scripts and install a WEB server on the Win95 system I have in my network, just so that I can use the information I paid for from where I am, with the WEB browser I like (which for textual information happens to be lynx), rather than warm up a Sony 15" monitor and fight with Netscape..... Bernie -- ============================================================================ "It's a magical world, Hobbes ol' buddy... ...let's go exploring" Calvin's final words, on December 31st, 1995 ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!hgibbons From: hgibbons@stic.net (Hugh Gibbons) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 09:29:02 -0700 Organization: IDT (Best News In The World) Lines: 63 Message-ID: References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <6kplpb$85p$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> <3572C94A.2AAC@idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: sa5399-9-37.stic.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 In article <3572C94A.2AAC@idt.net>, trs@idt.net wrote: #Neil Franklin wrote: #> Apropos using the word thieves: Pirates are not thieves!?! # #Oh yes they are. # #> As often as this word is used for them, it is missfitting. The word #> thief implies taking something away from an owner, i.e. the owner #> _losing_ the _ability_to_use_ an possession. # #So, if I take electricity by tying my wires into your house, you still #have the ability to use electricity so I am not stealing, right? This is a wrong comparison. Electricity is energy and not comparable to a pattern which can be reproduced infinitely without loss. Every KWH you use has to be produced by a generator somewhere, at a definite cost and will be billed to whomever has the meter registry. #> Pirates OTOH usually only borrow an data carrier, duplicate it and #> then bring it back. Then they start duplicating their copy. Result: #> the person who owned that data carrier doesn't lose it. That person #> does not lose their ability to use it. And even more to the point #> they don't lose their ability to use the software from it! #> #> As for the software vendor, they also neither lose their master copy, #> nor their ability to make and license further copies from it. # #But their master copy is now less valuable because they can not sell as #many copies of it. The thief has taken that value. This is true in the case where you really needed the software and were going to buy it. If you *wouldn't* have paid the vendor's price for it, then the vendor has not lost a sale. #A theft has occurred even if nothing concrete has been taken. Why does #it matter if a thief takes my money before I received it or after I #received it. This is like saying that if I take a check out of your #mailbox I an not stealing because you never had the check for me to #steal. Consider that in the light of what I've written above. #> OTOH design campaigns around the point that pirating is cheating, #> like cheating on bus/rail tickets. Make the point that it is as such #> unfair towards the _other_ (licenced) software _users_ (_not_ towards #> the _vendors_ as they simply raise the license cost, the same as #> bus/rail operators do). Look at the types of campaigns the bus/rail #> operators do. #> # #It is not that simple. If the operators raise the fairs to cover the #cost of theft then they will encourage more people to steal or to use #alternative methods of transport. To offset this they will have to raise #the fares... Not always true. In some cases, you may discourage theft by supplying a large number of copies cheap and make as much or more money. Every vendor has to use his best judgement considering his intended market and other factors. Hugh ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.ultranet.com!d13 From: jmfbahxx@ma.ultranet.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 11:14:51 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <6l0ptq$dun$1@strato.ultra.net> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <356F3D6A.234D987A@no.spam.stormtech.com> <6kug4a$5tb$1@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: d13.dial-14.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 2 Jun 1998 12:07:22 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 In article <6kug4a$5tb$1@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>, shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) wrote: >> That was back in the days when the Internet had only a couple of >> thousand nodes, and they all ran UNIX. > >Gees, I was around in those days, and while Unix machines were certainly >becoming popular with the lower-end sites, I would've never said that >they "all ran Unix". Certainly many of the major network sites were >PDP-10's >running TOPS-20 or ITS, and many other "when giants walked the earth" >machines were among the most well-known. Ermmm....That was TOPS-10. It had a network protocol that we called ANF-10. ANF-10 was the official corporate-wide name of the specialized hard/software that had been called DAS-xxx. The time frame I'm thinking about is mid-70s. /BAH ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed1.news.luth.se!luth.se!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed.sollentuna.se!dera!taz.dra.hmg.gb!WAGRAY From: wagray@taz.dra.hmg.gb (Walter Gray) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 2 Jun 1998 15:39:41 GMT Organization: Defence Research Agency Lines: 23 Message-ID: <6l16bt$da9$4@trog.dra.hmg.gb> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <6kplpb$85p$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> Reply-To: wagray@taz.dra.hmg.gb NNTP-Posting-Host: taz.dra.hmg.gb In article , peter@cara.demon.co.uk (Peter Ceresole) writes: :In article , :Neil Franklin wrote: : :>As often as this word is used for them, it is missfitting. The word :>thief implies taking something away from an owner, i.e. the owner :>_losing_ the _ability_to_use_ an possession. : :This is just nit picking. A software developer develops his product in the :reasonable expectation that, if people use it, he will get a return on his :effort. Those who use it illegally are denying him a reasonable return on :his investment. It's theft. Strictly you are right Peter, but as you know, some forms of theft are more socially acceptable than others. At the moment software theft is less unacceptable than shoplifting or housebreaking. Are you researching for a BBC programme? When will it be broadcast? I'm looking forward to hearing it. Walter Disclaimer: My employer is not responsible for this stuff. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed.wli.net!news.he.net!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail From: kaz@cafe.dot.net (Kaz Kylheku) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 16:44:44 GMT Organization: Infowave Wireless Messaging Inc. Message-ID: <35742a94.498136362@207.126.101.81> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <6kplpb$85p$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> <3572C94A.2AAC@idt.net> <35735CE2.5FEB@idt.net> Reply-To: kaz@cafe.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.239.210.48 X-Trace: 896805671 8EGGZV7/GD230CCEFC usenet53.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 46 On Mon, 01 Jun 1998 22:01:06 -0400, Terry Richards wrote: >Neil Franklin wrote: > > > > Terry Richards writes: > > > Neil Franklin wrote: > > > > As often as this word is used for them, it is missfitting. The >word > > > > thief implies taking something away from an owner, i.e. the owner > > > > _losing_ the _ability_to_use_ an possession. > > > So, if I take electricity by tying my wires into your house, you >still > > > have the ability to use electricity so I am not stealing, right? > > > > If you take the electricity, I will not be able to use it. That would > > make it an normal case of theft. > > > >You can't "take" electricity. Electricity is the energy carried by >indistinguishable electrons. I even have to return the electrons for me >to be able to receive the energy (that's why there's two wires). No >matter how much power I suck out of your house, you can still continue >to use your appliances, lights etc. (Up to the physical limitations of >the wiring). So no theft has occurred, right? A hint, don't try this >argument on the power company. > >In just the same way, software is the information carried by >indistinguishable bits. Except that bits can be replicated ad infinitum, whereas energy cannot. In the case of electricity, you are in fact stealing energy. You may be returning electrons via that second wire, but those electrons have lost their potential. You have stolen that potential and used it for yourself. Energy is a tangible thing, just like matter. (In fact we now know that energy and matter are two manifestations of the same thing). In the case of copyright infringement, you are taking something intangible, namely information. You are using your own resources to duplicate and distribute the information, so it's not theft. The courts will not see it as theft; that is why there is a whole branch of law devoted to copyright. If you infringe, you are charged with infringement, not theft. If piracy were theft, you would be charged with theft. But a felony is a felony. Either way, you can face fines or go to jail. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 2 Jun 1998 18:30:43 GMT Message-ID: <6l1gcj$30t$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <3572C94A.2AAC@idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-128.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: irk.zetnet.co.uk 896812243 3101 194.247.40.163 (2 Jun 1998 18:30:43 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jun 1998 18:30:43 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 79 On 1998-06-01 trs@idt.net said: :Neil Franklin wrote: :> Apropos using the word thieves: Pirates are not thieves!?! :Oh yes they are. in fact, it depends which use of the term "pirate" you fall back upon. in britain, for example, "piracy on the high seas" is still technically a hanging offence - somewhat odd in contemporary terms, but understandable when you look at the maritime history of the country. :> As for the software vendor, they also neither lose their master :>copy, nor their ability to make and license further copies from :it. > :But their master copy is now less valuable because they can not :sell as many copies of it. The thief has taken that value. false. they may well not have been able to sell it to that person in the first place. many people would either not choose to buy or not be able to buy the software they have "illegally". in any case, when you buy software, all you are buying these days is a licence to obliterate your hard disk. read the licence agreements; there's no guarantee - it's explicitly stated - that the program will do what you want at all, in fact that it'll do anything; indeed, the only thing that is implied that it will do is damage your data, since you are explicitly not covered for that. the product, the value and even the consumer rights remain theirs - all you have bought is an incredibly expensive data storage unit and a piece of paper that is at best worthless and at worst illegal (it falls foul of an awful lot of british consumer protection laws, for example). sorry, but why the hell would anyone want to pay money to any bunch of crooks that only give you that much in return. :> Because when fighting pirates the entire propaganda put out by :>such groups like BSA or FAST has aimed at trying to get the :>pirates to view themselves as thieves (and by negative :>association to get them to stop it). This fails because the :>pirates know they aren't stealing (taking something away), "I :>only borrowed the disks". Note that most pirates do not steal :_things_ in real life either. > :A theft has occurred even if nothing concrete has been taken. Why :does it matter if a thief takes my money before I received it or :after I received it. This is like saying that if I take a check out :of your mailbox I an not stealing because you never had the check :for me to steal. even in other sectors, you'll find a different term applies. that term is usually "fraud". it isn't identical to theft, by a long way, and there are certain people (we're one) who find it perfectly acceptable when the targets are large financially stable companies involved in dubious-to-immoral business practices themselves. eg. nestle - we would not be at all unhappy to hear that somebody had defrauded nestle of several million pounds, given what they do in the third world. ditto microsoft, although it's the first world in which ms offend. :> This could have a real chance of reducing piracy (by negative :> association with cheating other users, not the vendors for whom :>the pirates do not care, "they are all greed driven firms :anyway"). > :I would find this more beleivable if the thieves only stole from :large companies. In fact, they will steal anything that attracts :them regardless of who produced it. Not every software company is a :Microsoft, a Lotus, or an IBM. no, but the little guys tend to be in specialised fields, and there just aren't that many people who would be interested in a free copy of a database for running a hospital, for example, or the code for a logic analyser. only the mass-market apps are widely useful enough to be worth piracy. and if they are produced by small companies, well, you have a point, but market trends seem to have turned against this likelihood... -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 2 Jun 1998 18:30:47 GMT Message-ID: <6l1gcn$30t$3@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: man-128.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: irk.zetnet.co.uk 896812247 3101 194.247.40.163 (2 Jun 1998 18:30:47 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jun 1998 18:30:47 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 13 On 1998-06-01 neil@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch said: :Following up on my own post... :This morning in bed some brain cells started working and produced: [why pirates commit fraud, not theft, snipped] we have mornings like this too, neil, but we find it best to write down our earth-shattering conclusions on a piece of paper and lock them away for a long enough to forget how stunningly clever we are ;> ;> ;> -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!cara.demon.co.uk!user From: peter@cara.demon.co.uk (Peter Ceresole) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 20:44:23 +0100 Organization: none Message-ID: References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <6kplpb$85p$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> <6l16bt$da9$4@trog.dra.hmg.gb> NNTP-Posting-Host: cara.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: cara.demon.co.uk:158.152.17.67 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 896816617 nnrp-08:4554 NO-IDENT cara.demon.co.uk:158.152.17.67 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Lines: 13 In article <6l16bt$da9$4@trog.dra.hmg.gb>, wagray@taz.dra.hmg.gb (Walter Gray) wrote: >Are you >researching for a BBC programme? When will it be broadcast? I'm >looking forward to hearing it. Certainly not about software theft. Right now I'm sorting out two programmes about the history af the cinema newsreels, transmitting July 18th and 25th. -- Peter ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 2 Jun 1998 21:04:14 GMT Message-ID: <6l1pce$3ik$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: man-205.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: irk.zetnet.co.uk 896821454 3668 194.247.43.6 (2 Jun 1998 21:04:14 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jun 1998 21:04:14 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 23 On 1998-06-01 neil@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch said: :People riding an bus/railway without an ticket are also depriving :the company that runs the service of the money they otherwise would :have made selling an ticket...that is cheating, not stealing...so :tthieves doesn't seem the right term.... this is purely en passant, but it suddenly struck us that just as you are defining software piracy as something other than theft, the authorities in the uk are trying to paint not paying your television licence fee[1] as something other than tax evasion - they are saying it is also theft. perhaps you could have a word with them...? -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... [1] a licence fee is a sum of money (30 pounds for a black and white television, 100 pounds for a colour television) that you are legally compelled to pay if you wish to watch television, regardless of whether the channels you watch are self-funding or not. it is used to pay for the state-owned (though nominally independent, and in fairness it has a pretty good go at it) BBC. ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 03 Jun 1998 00:19:25 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <6kplpb$85p$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> <3572C94A.2AAC@idt.net> <35735CE2.5FEB@idt.net> <35742a94.498136362@207.126.101.81> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 kaz@cafe.dot.net (Kaz Kylheku) writes: > On Mon, 01 Jun 1998 22:01:06 -0400, Terry Richards wrote: > >You can't "take" electricity. Electricity is the energy carried by > >indistinguishable electrons. I even have to return the electrons for me > >to be able to receive the energy (that's why there's two wires). No > >matter how much power I suck out of your house, you can still continue > >to use your appliances, lights etc. (Up to the physical limitations of > >the wiring). So no theft has occurred, right? A hint, don't try this > >argument on the power company. > > > >In just the same way, software is the information carried by > >indistinguishable bits. > > Except that bits can be replicated ad infinitum, whereas energy cannot. Perpetum mobile? :-) > In the case of electricity, you are in fact stealing energy. You > may be returning electrons via that second wire, but those electrons > have lost their potential. You have stolen that potential and used > it for yourself. Energy is a tangible thing, just like matter. > (In fact we now know that energy and matter are two manifestations > of the same thing). Thanks for sparing me the job of writing that. > In the case of copyright infringement, you are taking something > intangible, namely information. You are using your own resources to > duplicate and distribute the information, so it's not theft. > The courts will not see it as theft; that is why there is a whole > branch of law devoted to copyright. If you infringe, you are charged > with infringement, not theft. If piracy were theft, you would be > charged with theft. But a felony is a felony. Either way, you can > face fines or go to jail. And even more thanks for formulating it better than I could (English is my second language). Infringment is the word I was looking for when using cheating, fraud would have also been an usable word. -- private: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ office: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ WinCE car, crashing soon on a road near you ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 03 Jun 1998 00:29:13 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <6l1pce$3ik$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 lisard@zetnet.co.uk writes: > this is purely en passant, but it suddenly struck us that just as you > are defining software piracy as something other than theft, the > authorities in the uk are trying to paint not paying your television > licence fee[1] as something other than tax evasion - they are saying it > is also theft. Seems to me an case of "how does one raise the range of possible punnishments while circumventing an honnest discussion". Reminds me of the story of an American state which defined illegal drug trafficing as evasion of sales tax to increase the punnishment possible. Question to a.f.u: is this a real story or folklore? > perhaps you could have a word with them...? I doubt they will listen to me. > whether the channels you watch are self-funding or not. it is used > to pay for the state-owned (though nominally independent, and in > fairness it has a pretty good go at it) BBC. Thanks for the good old Beeb. From the little of Brittish TV I have seen the alternatives (ITV and C4) are a complete washout. Hey, I am spoiled by the TV we get here in mid Europe, particularly S3, B3 and 3sat (Germany), O1 and O2 (Austria), arte (France/Germany bilingual). Yes these are also license payed. The self-funding stuff over here is also crap. -- private: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ office: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ WinCE car, crashing soon on a road near you ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 03 Jun 1998 00:39:29 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <6l1gcn$30t$3@irk.zetnet.co.uk> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 lisard@zetnet.co.uk writes: > On 1998-06-01 neil@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch said: > :Following up on my own post... > :This morning in bed some brain cells started working and produced: > [why pirates commit fraud, not theft, snipped] > > we have mornings like this too, neil, but we find it best to write down > our earth-shattering conclusions on a piece of paper Paper? Is that that write-once medium that missuses the user as write device, requiring years of programming? I prefer to use files. > and lock them away > for a long enough to forget how stunningly clever we are ;> ;> ;> ROTFL. See, I prefer to post them to the nearest mailing list or usenet group. That leads to more interesting discussions. Piracy certainly beats advocacy by lengths. -- private: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ office: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ WinCE car, crashing soon on a road near you ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ais.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!ganymede.isdn.uiuc.edu!wendling From: wendling@ganymede.isdn.uiuc.edu (Bil Wendling) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 3 Jun 1998 06:32:05 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign Lines: 12 Message-ID: <6l2ql5$5jd$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <6kmouu$e5@elf.wang.com> <356F49C6.3D13@anet-stl.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ganymede.isdn.uiuc.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Jim Everman (everman@anet-stl.com) wrote: : Jim Meritt wrote: : > : > Does history cure skeptism? : > : Nothing cure *extream* skeptism. Yeah...Right! -- || Bil Wendling wendling@ncsa.uiuc.edu || Research Programmer ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.221.240.3!beaker.tor.sfl.net!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!gts!bdb From: bdb@GTS.Net (Bruce Becker) Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Message-ID: Organization: G.T.S., Toronto, Ontario X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test63 (15 March 1998) References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 11:51:41 GMT Lines: 20 In article , C. Hillman wrote: | |You are right to be skeptical :-/ but nuclear attack and hacker attack |pose quite different threats to the InterNet. These hackers were probably |talking about "denial-of-service attacks" on key local networks |(basically, the attacker ties up the server which connects the local |network to everything else), a concept which has been demonstrated :-/ |many times. It could be argued that deployment of nuclear devices falls into the category of "denial-of-service attacks"... -- ,u, Bruce Becker Toronto, Ontario 1 416 699 1868 a /i/ Internet: bdb@gts.org Uucp: ...!gts!bdb `\o\-e "When did the Me Generation become the meme generation?" _< /_ - Mimi Pond, historian ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.221.240.3!beaker.tor.sfl.net!news.rdc1.on.wave.home.com!newshub2.home.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news.rdc1.sfba.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3575BCBF.18FB9E4F@no.spam.stormtech.com> From: Pepijn Schmitz X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,rec.org.mensa,comp.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source References: <6kueof$fc0$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <357320E1.MD-0.198.no@spam.he.re> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 21:16:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.19.22.236 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 14:16:18 PDT Organization: @Work Internet powered by @Home Network S. T. wrote: > > That was certainly the case 3 years ago, but now, I'm not so sure. > > Doesn't every machine on earth today run some variant of Windows? Sure, > > Not this one. AmigaOS 3.1. Dick size fight: what's the disk size limit > on your OS? Anything less than 16 exabytes isn't enough. ;) Actually, with NT, the disk size limit _is_ 16 exabytes. Theoretically (as with AmigaOS), since current hardware architectures can't support harddisks with such sizes. /Pepijn ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!darla.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,rec.org.mensa,comp.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source References: <6kueof$fc0$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <357320E1.MD-0.198.no@spam.he.re> <3575BCBF.18FB9E4F@no.spam.stormtech.com> Organization: Plethora . Net - More Net, Less Spam! X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test62 (21 February 1998) From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Lines: 18 Message-ID: <0Ejd1.714$On1.2746917@ptah.visi.com> Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 21:56:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: guild.plethora.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 16:56:12 CDT In article <3575BCBF.18FB9E4F@no.spam.stormtech.com>, Pepijn Schmitz wrote: >Actually, with NT, the disk size limit _is_ 16 exabytes. Theoretically >(as with AmigaOS), since current hardware architectures can't support >harddisks with such sizes. Yeah, but what size is the smallest file? You're pretty much stuck using FAT16, since nothing else can talk NTFS, but NT can't (last I heard) talk FAT32. UGH. -s -- Copyright '98, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! Not speaking for my employer. Questions on C/Unix? Send mail for help. Visit my new ISP --- More Net, Less Spam! ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.221.240.3!beaker.tor.sfl.net!news.rdc1.on.wave.home.com!newshub2.home.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news.rdc1.sfba.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3575DB18.5AA190B4@no.spam.stormtech.com> From: Pepijn Schmitz X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,rec.org.mensa,comp.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source References: <6kueof$fc0$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <357320E1.MD-0.198.no@spam.he.re> <3575BCBF.18FB9E4F@no.spam.stormtech.com> <0Ejd1.714$On1.2746917@ptah.visi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 23:25:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.19.22.236 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 16:25:22 PDT Organization: @Work Internet powered by @Home Network Peter Seebach wrote: > > In article <3575BCBF.18FB9E4F@no.spam.stormtech.com>, > Pepijn Schmitz wrote: > >Actually, with NT, the disk size limit _is_ 16 exabytes. Theoretically > >(as with AmigaOS), since current hardware architectures can't support > >harddisks with such sizes. > > Yeah, but what size is the smallest file? You're pretty much stuck using > FAT16, since nothing else can talk NTFS, but NT can't (last I heard) talk > FAT32. What size is the smallest file?! Why, 0 bytes of course. What about it? Since nothing else can talk Amiga's filesystem either, it's in the same position as NTFS in that regard. Yeah I know, there are drivers for DOS and Linux that can read the Amiga filesystem, but the same goes for NTFS. By the way, I'm in no way endorsing NT here. I hate NT. I despise NT. I would sooner stick my d*ck in a meat grinder than use NT. If someone forced me to use NT I would go crazy. Or shoot the person. Or Both. Bill Gates should be hung, quartered, shot, poisoned and burnt at the stake. Micro$oft is the most evil empire the Earth has known since Attila died. Linux rulez. Linus Torvalds should be sainted. /Pepijn ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!europa.clark.net!198.138.0.5!newshub.northeast.verio.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail From: viro@riemann.math.psu.edu (Alexander Viro) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 4 Jun 1998 00:44:05 -0400 Organization: -ENOENT Lines: 18 Approved: Who cares? Message-ID: <6l58ml$3c3@riemann.math.psu.edu> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: riemann.math.psu.edu In article , Peter Kerr wrote: [snip] >The modern computer analogy would be, not only do they steal your >software, they put a large hammer through your computer, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ [snip] >University of Auckland NZ neo-Luddite ^^^^^^^^^^^ Hmm... How it was called? Great Enoch? ;-) -- My theory is that someone's Emacs crashed on a very early version of Linux while reading alt.flame and the resulting unholy combination of Elisp and Minix code somehow managed to bootstrap itself and take on an independent existence. -- James Raynard in c.u.b.f.m on nature of Albert Cahalan ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!news-lond.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.251.127.50!worldfeed.gte.net!intgwlon.nntp.telstra.net!news.telstra.net.nz!clear.net.nz!auckland.ac.nz!p.kerr From: p.kerr@auckland.ac.nz (Peter Kerr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 4 Jun 1998 03:50:02 GMT Organization: School of Music University of Auckland Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <6kplpb$85p$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: p.kerr.mus.auckland.ac.nz X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b6 Neil Franklin wrote: > > Apropos using the word thieves: Pirates are not thieves!?! Ah, the changing English language ;-) Pirates -were- thieves, murderers, arsonists, and whatever the word is for someone who goes round sinking ships. The modern computer analogy would be, not only do they steal your software, they put a large hammer through your computer, kill you, take your wallet, rape your wife and children and set fire to your house. My, aren't we lucky the English language does evolve... -- Peter Kerr bodger School of Music chandler University of Auckland NZ neo-Luddite ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!198.147.221.37!news.xnet.com!newsgate.mot.com!newshost.mot.com!news-in.cig.mot.com!not-for-mail From: Grant LeTourneau Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,rec.org.mensa,comp.misc,comp.security.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 09:12:14 -0500 Organization: Motorola CIG-ITS Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3576AB3E.9D22C1A8@email.mot.com> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <6kmouu$e5@elf.wang.com> <6ko3k3$ijs@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ntrm09.cig.mot.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (WinNT; I) Venigoon wrote: > > In article <6kmouu$e5@elf.wang.com>, merittj@wangfed.com (Jim Meritt) wrote: > >In article <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu>, daveg@XOUT.u.washington.edu > >says... > > > >>In the news recently several hackers testified before Congress that they > >>could bring America's computers to their knees in half an hour or less > >>including the internet. > > Can you remember on what TV network did you see this program? > Name of the program, original date of broadcast, etc. > Was that on C-Span by any chance? > I'd appreciate this info. > Thanx It was on the front page of last weeks Internet Week (not the newest one, the one before that.) I'm sure you can read about it on their site. ###### From: "adam" References: <6kueof$fc0$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <357320E1.MD-0.198.no@spam.he.re> <3575BCBF.18FB9E4F@no.spam.stormtech.com> <0Ejd1.714$On1.2746917@ptah.visi.com> <3575DB18.5AA190B4@no.spam.stormtech.com> Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:05:15 -0700 Lines: 49 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,rec.org.mensa,comp.misc NNTP-Posting-Host: [38.168.214.130] Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!207.68.143.79!upnetnews03!upnetnews05 A file of zero bytes still takes up a cluster. For NTFS that 4096 bytes, FAT16 it depends upon the size of the disk (1/65535 of the disk), I forgot what FAT32 uses, probably similar to NTFS. Now there was a movie called the "Forbin Project" or Chronicles. A big defence computer becomes intelligent and takes over the world, maybe the WWW would do that if it wasn't for all that "make money fast" and alt.folklore.urban drivel that is keeping it from thinking clearly. Maybe Wally Rhines is really a hero for saving the world %-) -- Adam Zilinskas SolutionsIQ aez at msn.com Pepijn Schmitz wrote in message <3575DB18.5AA190B4@no.spam.stormtech.com>... >Peter Seebach wrote: >> >> In article <3575BCBF.18FB9E4F@no.spam.stormtech.com>, >> Pepijn Schmitz wrote: >> >Actually, with NT, the disk size limit _is_ 16 exabytes. Theoretically >> >(as with AmigaOS), since current hardware architectures can't support >> >harddisks with such sizes. >> >> Yeah, but what size is the smallest file? You're pretty much stuck using >> FAT16, since nothing else can talk NTFS, but NT can't (last I heard) talk >> FAT32. > >What size is the smallest file?! Why, 0 bytes of course. What about it? > >Since nothing else can talk Amiga's filesystem either, it's in the same >position as NTFS in that regard. Yeah I know, there are drivers for DOS >and Linux that can read the Amiga filesystem, but the same goes for >NTFS. > >By the way, I'm in no way endorsing NT here. I hate NT. I despise NT. I >would sooner stick my d*ck in a meat grinder than use NT. If someone >forced me to use NT I would go crazy. Or shoot the person. Or Both. Bill >Gates should be hung, quartered, shot, poisoned and burnt at the stake. >Micro$oft is the most evil empire the Earth has known since Attila died. > >Linux rulez. Linus Torvalds should be sainted. > >/Pepijn ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.maz.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.anet-stl.com!not-for-mail From: Jim Everman Newsgroups: alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 14:12:01 -0500 Organization: Very good. Lines: 11 Message-ID: <3576F181.5908@anet-stl.com> References: <6l6qlo$b6d$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> Reply-To: everman@anet-stl.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp053.anet-stl.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.anet-stl.com 896989947 12585 209.83.129.53 (4 Jun 1998 19:52:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.anet-stl.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jun 1998 19:52:27 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) > > :Paper? Is that that write-once medium that missuses the user as > :write device, requiring years of programming? I prefer to use files. Last time I tried to write on a file it dulled the hell out of my pencil. Or did you mean to use a file to scratch the info into something? JE ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!peer.news.zetnet.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!uunet!in1.uu.net!viper.america.net!not-for-mail From: rljoiner@mindspring.nospam.com (Randall Joiner) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,rec.org.mensa,comp.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 15:18:24 GMT Organization: Imnet Systems, Inc Message-ID: <3576a485.153147722@news.america.net> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <356F3D6A.234D987A@no.spam.stormtech.com> Reply-To: rljoiner@mindspring.nospam.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.113.249.2 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Lines: 55 >> Two words, Internet Worm. > >That was back in the days when the Internet had only a couple of >thousand nodes, and they all ran UNIX. It's very unlikely that something >similar could happen again these days, the Internet is too large and >diverse for a single program to bring it to its knees. ROTFLMAO-TIS FYI- That just went into my fortune file. Under the famous last words section. On a serious note- That's EXACTLY what has been beleived everytime something has been cocked up. Especially at the time the I-worm went wyld. As most anyone in security can tell you, the only secure system is one that is locked in a closet, in someone's attic with the key thrown away, with no power, no connections, and a thermite bath in full swing. Anything short of that is unsecure to some degree. Anything with access to the net is unsecure to an exponetial degree. Hypothetical situation to ponder: Access is gained by "crackers" (Read hacker to those ignorant of the difference in definitions) to a well known/used/liked software developement company. For instance, microsoft. These crackers then insert a trojan horse into the distrubution disk. But the horse isn't set to go off for 4 years... 4 YEARS of distrubutions, on brand new machines, without any virus protection data file knowing it exists much less detecting it... And then BOOM. Bye Bye network. Crash enough networks, the whole damn thing comes down.. Especially with new broadband/netcasting technologies.. *Ick*. Scenario sound to off beat? Remember the IE explorer bugs? IF someone had been smart, and used the same principles that the I-worm had used, Ie. QUIETLY gain access/passwords and QUIETLY send them back home, while QUIETLY passing itself on to other machines... (Yes, the worm wasn't quiet, but it was designed to be... bad coding often results in not achieving desired results) If that had happened... Well, the results could have been ugly. Especially since firewalls, proxy servers, and just about every other security measure can't protect you from going out and downloading or giving control to other programs... Not without complete severing all such contact. Sorry to seem to be ranting, but it really scares the sh*t out of me to know that people out there really do think they're safe and secure, and that nothing can happen to them... Just look at what a single bird with attitude problems caused to happen to communications... I heard (2nd hand, reliable source though) tell some thousands of doctor's spent that night at the hospital cause they couldn't be paged if things went wrong... One satalite... Nough ranting, Randall Joiner ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.wli.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!viper.america.net!not-for-mail From: rljoiner@mindspring.nospam.com (Randall Joiner) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 15:33:34 GMT Organization: Imnet Systems, Inc Lines: 31 Message-ID: <3576bbe6.159133100@news.america.net> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <356E7EAA.2EF94594@stoneweb.com> <3578ac96.17205590@news.innet.be> <3570B06F.3E6C@anet-stl.com> <6krg78$89g$1@ligarius.ultra.net> Reply-To: rljoiner@mindspring.nospam.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.113.249.2 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 jmfbahxx@ma.ultranet.com wrote: >>How old are you? I'm but 20 and I know the origin of "hacker". A Hacker is >>one who creates hacks. A hack is a piece of code (or other engineering not >>necessarily even having to do with computers) that is compact, ingenious, >>does what it's supposed to do, doesn't break anything else, is fast, etc. >>IIRC it's origin lies deep within the MIT(?) miniture railroad club and >>was passed on to the MIT computer types. Later the tree-huggin, >>data-freeing, flower children of the 60's started breaking into systems >>and usurped the term from it's rightful owners. >> Hack can also be a joke/prank that is well-done or notorious (also from MIT). I can't remember the URL, but there's an MIT site that actually postes present and past "Hacks" that have happened on campus or done by students. My favorite has got to be the MIT dorm life one... Someone mentioned eariler that guru and hacker are similar in meaning... While not official, I've noted that guru tends to be used in conjunction with something descriptive, and hacker is generally left without modifier's/qualifier's (Except the word true, denoting the Jargon definition instead of the public/media definition). Ie. He's a Unix guru, and a true hacker. A couple of good rules of thumb on when to use the words guru/hacker and "cracker" is: Cracker's destroy or violate, hacker's create or modify... A hacker's satisfaction comes from his hack, a Cracker's satisfaction comes from his peer's accolades... Randall Joiner ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!news-lond.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!worldfeed.gte.net!uunet!in5.uu.net!viper.america.net!not-for-mail From: rljoiner@mindspring.nospam.com (Randall Joiner) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 15:51:53 GMT Organization: Imnet Systems, Inc Lines: 49 Message-ID: <3576bf0d.159940319@news.america.net> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <6kplpb$85p$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> Reply-To: rljoiner@mindspring.nospam.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.113.249.2 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Neil Franklin wrote: >peter@cara.demon.co.uk (Peter Ceresole) writes: >> In article , >> Neil Franklin wrote: >> >> >As often as this word is used for them, it is missfitting. The word >> >thief implies taking something away from an owner, i.e. the owner >> >_losing_ the _ability_to_use_ an possession. >> >> This is just nit picking. > >Nope. See the argument about precision a few postust of mine upwards. The word pirate denotes/connotates if not is defined by the taking, either by force or by stealth, the rightful property and monies of someone else. It general goes along with rape, looting, plundering, and in general violent theft. A modern software pirate must strip/rip the copy protection from the software, oftentimes perverting or corrupting other parts of the software, to allow the distrubution and/or sale of this software for personal profit. To my mind, that has alot more to do with a pirate than a thief. Still it is theft, and a pirate is a thief in it's own right, so if you want to nit-pick that badly, then yes, a pirate is a thief. However, if you truly want precision in definitions, then a pirate, as a subclass of thief, would be much more precise a definition. Especially when considering that the word thief denotes alot more class/poise/skill/sophistication than the word pirate, and I've never considered the rather heavy handed and ineligent ways that copy protection is stripped off a program to be elegant, sophisticated, or with any deft or large amount of skill. > > >> A software developer develops his product in the >> reasonable expectation that, if people use it, he will get a return on his >> effort. Those who use it illegally are denying him a reasonable return on >> his investment. > >I fully agree. But that was not the point I was discussing. Interesting assumption... In today's day and age, is it not also a reasonable expectation that at least somebody is going to use your product and not pay for it? Would this then constitute an implied grant to do so? If not, then how does the "reasonable expectation that, ..., he will get a return on his effort" factor into this arguement? Randall Joiner ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!server5.netnews.ja.net!server3.netnews.ja.net!server4.netnews.ja.net!doc.ic.ac.uk!gatsby.u-net.com!not-for-mail From: David Wragg Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,rec.org.mensa,comp.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 04 Jun 1998 16:35:10 +0000 Organization: Dept. of Computing, Imperial College, University of London, UK. Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <6kueof$fc0$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <357320E1.MD-0.198.no@spam.he.re> <3575BCBF.18FB9E4F@no.spam.stormtech.com> <0Ejd1.714$On1.2746917@ptah.visi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sytry.doc.ic.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) writes: > In article <3575BCBF.18FB9E4F@no.spam.stormtech.com>, > Pepijn Schmitz wrote: > >Actually, with NT, the disk size limit _is_ 16 exabytes. Theoretically > >(as with AmigaOS), since current hardware architectures can't support > >harddisks with such sizes. > > Yeah, but what size is the smallest file? You're pretty much stuck using > FAT16, since nothing else can talk NTFS, but NT can't (last I heard) talk > FAT32. Linux reads NTFS perfectly well (integrated into 2.1.x, available as a separate module for 2.0.x). And it reads and writes FAT32. So, if you want to move files from NTFS to FAT32, which OS does MS suggest you use? -- Dave Wragg ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!btnet-peer!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 4 Jun 1998 18:56:53 GMT Message-ID: <6l6qll$b6d$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: man-049.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: irk.zetnet.co.uk 896986613 11469 194.247.41.61 (4 Jun 1998 18:56:53 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jun 1998 18:56:53 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 56 On 1998-06-03 neil@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch said: :lisard@zetnet.co.uk writes: :> this is purely en passant, but it suddenly struck us that just as :>you are defining software piracy as something other than theft, :>the authorities in the uk are trying to paint not paying your :>television licence fee[1] as something other than tax evasion - :>they are saying it is also theft. :Seems to me an case of "how does one raise the range of possible :punnishments while circumventing an honnest discussion". ah, we meant "also" in terms of what the current topic was, rather than "also" as in both theft and tax evasion. it's just another way of justifying the unjustifiable imposition of a 1000 pound fine for non-payment. the bbc really should consider selling decoder boxes if they are going to charge people for using their channels. :Reminds me of the story of an American state which defined illegal :drug trafficing as evasion of sales tax to increase the punnishment :possible. ohmigod, it's prohibition all over again. ;> (we are pro-legalisation across the board. heroin for all! ;> ) :> perhaps you could have a word with them...? :I doubt they will listen to me. shame, you're definitely worth reading. :>whether the channels you watch are self-funding or not. it is :>used to pay for the state-owned (though nominally independent, :>and in fairness it has a pretty good go at it) BBC. :Thanks for the good old Beeb. From the little of Brittish TV I have :seen the alternatives (ITV and C4) are a complete washout. they aren't too bad, but on the other hand we only watch them for the expensive american comedies that they pay for with their advertising revenue. ;> :Hey, I am spoiled by the TV we get here in mid Europe, particularly :S3, B3 and 3sat (Germany), O1 and O2 (Austria), arte (France/Germany :bilingual). Yes these are also license payed. The self-funding stuff :over here is also crap. well, you have the advantage of being fluent in german. if you were in britain, you could still get them via satellite or cable. unfortunately, the kind of people who shell out for such media generally aren't fluent in the european languages, except for being able to translate "ooh, thrust your hard rod deep inside me baby!" from dutch or deutsch ;> ;> -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 4 Jun 1998 18:56:56 GMT Message-ID: <6l6qlo$b6d$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: man-049.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: irk.zetnet.co.uk 896986616 11469 194.247.41.61 (4 Jun 1998 18:56:56 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jun 1998 18:56:56 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 32 On 1998-06-03 neil@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch said: :lisard@zetnet.co.uk writes: :> we have mornings like this too, neil, but we find it best to :>write down our earth-shattering conclusions on a piece of paper :Paper? Is that that write-once medium that missuses the user as :write device, requiring years of programming? I prefer to use files. ah, but for portability, reliability, stability and expressive range paper still can't be beaten. the only problem is compatibility, as any pharmacist will tell you. ;> :> and lock them away :> for a long enough to forget how stunningly clever we are ;> ;> ;> :See, I prefer to post them to the nearest mailing list or usenet :group. That leads to more interesting discussions. it also leads to someone digging your post of dejanews (hmm - x-no-archive: yes ) and causing you no end of embarrassment 3 months down the road, when you've forgotten how brilliant you were but remember all too well how they savaged you in the debate ;> :Piracy certainly beats advocacy by lengths. true enough. unfortunately advocacy beats piracy by volumes... -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 19:36:41 GMT Organization: . Message-ID: <3581eacf.10917288@news.innet.be> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <356E7EAA.2EF94594@stoneweb.com> <3578ac96.17205590@news.innet.be> <3570B06F.3E6C@anet-stl.com> <6krg78$89g$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <3576bbe6.159133100@news.america.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-231-54.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Lines: 16 rljoiner@mindspring.nospam.com (Randall Joiner) told us > Someone mentioned eariler that guru and hacker are similar in > meaning... While not official, I've noted that guru tends to be used > in conjunction with something descriptive, and hacker is generally > left without modifier's/qualifier's (Except the word true, denoting > the Jargon definition instead of the public/media definition). Ie. > He's a Unix guru, and a true hacker. That was just my own vision upon it; to put it as short as I can: a guru knows/explains, a hacker does. Which implies that a hacker can be a guru in his spare time, and vice versa... I also saw the word hack (not hacker) being used in conjunction: a unix hack, a lisp hack. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.corridex.com!core.savvis.net!news.anet-stl.com!not-for-mail From: Jim Everman Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 19:46:03 -0500 Organization: Very good. Lines: 27 Message-ID: <35773FCB.44FC@anet-stl.com> References: <6kueof$fc0$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <357320E1.MD-0.198.no@spam.he.re> <3575BCBF.18FB9E4F@no.spam.stormtech.com> <0Ejd1.714$On1.2746917@ptah.visi.com> Reply-To: everman@anet-stl.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp001.anet-stl.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.anet-stl.com 897010336 14230 209.83.129.1 (5 Jun 1998 01:32:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.anet-stl.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Jun 1998 01:32:16 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) David Wragg wrote: > > seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) writes: > > In article <3575BCBF.18FB9E4F@no.spam.stormtech.com>, > > Pepijn Schmitz wrote: > > >Actually, with NT, the disk size limit _is_ 16 exabytes. Theoretically > > >(as with AmigaOS), since current hardware architectures can't support > > >harddisks with such sizes. > > > > Yeah, but what size is the smallest file? You're pretty much stuck using > > FAT16, since nothing else can talk NTFS, but NT can't (last I heard) talk > > FAT32. > > Linux reads NTFS perfectly well (integrated into 2.1.x, available as a > separate module for 2.0.x). And it reads and writes FAT32. > > So, if you want to move files from NTFS to FAT32, which OS does MS > suggest you use? > > -- > Dave Wragg This is neither folklore nor religion - how about keeping it at home? JE ####### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail From: mpage@panix.com (Madeleine Page) Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,rec.org.mensa,comp.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Followup-To: misc.test Date: 4 Jun 1998 20:14:26 -0400 Organization: Winnicott, Larkin & Bach Lines: 12 Message-ID: <6l7d92$jjl@panix2.panix.com> References: <6kueof$fc0$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <357320E1.MD-0.198.no@spam.he.re> <3575BCBF.18FB9E4F@no.spam.stormtech.com> <0Ejd1.714$On1.2746917@ptah.visi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix2.nfs100.access.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] David Wragg at Dept. of Computing, Imperial College, who should know better, wrote: [who cares? it was crossposted to six groups and not particularly on topic for half of them at least] *Please* folks check your headers before replying to an article. This one had been maliciously crossposted and if you don't amend your headers, it will never die. Madeleine "note followups" Page ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news.idt.net!ais.net!iagnet.net!iagnet.net!news.bright.net!not-for-mail From: deke.spamblock@generous.net Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,rec.org.mensa,comp.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 21:58:04 GMT Organization: GenerousCity is a virtue - find romance at http://generous.net Lines: 36 Message-ID: <357717f2.45003817@news.bright.net> References: <6kueof$fc0$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <357320E1.MD-0.198.no@spam.he.re> <3575BCBF.18FB9E4F@no.spam.stormtech.com> <0Ejd1.714$On1.2746917@ptah.visi.com> <3575DB18.5AA190B4@no.spam.stormtech.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: paul-cas1-cs-18.dial.bright.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 On Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:05:15 -0700, "adam" wrote: >A file of zero bytes still takes up a cluster. > For NTFS that 4096 bytes, FAT16 it depends upon > the size of the disk (1/65535 of the disk), I forgot > what FAT32 uses, probably similar to NTFS. A file of *ONE* byte still takes up a cluster. A file of *ZERO* bytes is just a directory entry. If the directory spills over and becomes one cluster larger, then a zero-length file would take a cluster. Otherwise, it would take no space at all. ------------------------------------------------- A size-friendly community for romance Join our discussion mailing list at http://generous.net/list/list.shtml ------------------------------------------------- Or chat with us on IRC - DALnet channel #GenerousSingles ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.corridex.com!core.savvis.net!news.anet-stl.com!not-for-mail From: Jim Everman Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,rec.org.mensa,comp.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 22:24:13 -0500 Organization: Very good. Lines: 24 Message-ID: <357764DD.40C8@anet-stl.com> References: <6kueof$fc0$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <357320E1.MD-0.198.no@spam.he.re> <3575BCBF.18FB9E4F@no.spam.stormtech.com> <0Ejd1.714$On1.2746917@ptah.visi.com> <3575DB18.5AA190B4@no.spam.stormtech.com> <357758BA.99C93AE0@no.spam.stormtech.com> Reply-To: everman@anet-stl.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp001.anet-stl.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.anet-stl.com 897017213 14990 209.83.129.1 (5 Jun 1998 03:26:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.anet-stl.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Jun 1998 03:26:52 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Pepijn Schmitz wrote: > > adam wrote: > > > > A file of zero bytes still takes up a cluster. > > For NTFS that 4096 bytes, FAT16 it depends upon > > the size of the disk (1/65535 of the disk), I forgot > > what FAT32 uses, probably similar to NTFS. > > On FAT, zero byte files use no clusters at all, just a directory entry. > I'm pretty sure that the same goes for NTFS and efs2. > > /Pepijn This is so easy it's almost funny - check how much drive space is avalible. Write a zero byte file. Check the disk space again. -- Jim Everman mailto:everman@Anet-STL.com http://webusers.Anet-STL.com/~everman/ Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!cara.demon.co.uk!user From: peter@cara.demon.co.uk (Peter Ceresole) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 22:40:08 +0100 Organization: none Message-ID: References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <6kplpb$85p$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> <3576bf0d.159940319@news.america.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cara.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: cara.demon.co.uk:158.152.17.67 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 896996358 nnrp-08:20705 NO-IDENT cara.demon.co.uk:158.152.17.67 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Lines: 22 In article <3576bf0d.159940319@news.america.net>, rljoiner@mindspring.nospam.com (Randall Joiner) wrote: >Interesting assumption... In today's day and age, is it not also a >reasonable expectation that at least somebody is going to use your >product and not pay for it? Would this then constitute an implied >grant to do so? If not, then how does the "reasonable expectation >that, ..., he will get a return on his effort" factor into this >arguement? Because the expectation that somebody is going to use your product and not pay for it is no more an invitation for them to do it, than an expectation that somebody will burgle your house is an invitation for somebody to do *that*. The "cracker" is the exact equivalent of a burglar who uses a jemmy to break through the protection of somebody's house. Warez are stolen goods. "Piracy" is simply theft. Those who do it are just criminals and have the mentality of criminals. -- Peter ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.221.240.3!beaker.tor.sfl.net!news.rdc1.on.wave.home.com!newshub2.home.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news.rdc1.sfba.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <357758BA.99C93AE0@no.spam.stormtech.com> From: Pepijn Schmitz X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,rec.org.mensa,comp.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source References: <6kueof$fc0$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <357320E1.MD-0.198.no@spam.he.re> <3575BCBF.18FB9E4F@no.spam.stormtech.com> <0Ejd1.714$On1.2746917@ptah.visi.com> <3575DB18.5AA190B4@no.spam.stormtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 10 Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 02:33:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.19.22.238 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 19:33:41 PDT Organization: @Work Internet powered by @Home Network adam wrote: > > A file of zero bytes still takes up a cluster. > For NTFS that 4096 bytes, FAT16 it depends upon > the size of the disk (1/65535 of the disk), I forgot > what FAT32 uses, probably similar to NTFS. On FAT, zero byte files use no clusters at all, just a directory entry. I'm pretty sure that the same goes for NTFS and efs2. /Pepijn ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.concentric.net!global-news-master From: cauce.nospam@vo.cnchost.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,rec.org.mensa,comp.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 05 Jun 1998 04:04:40 EDT Organization: Concentric Internet Services Lines: 22 Message-ID: <3577a7bc.260590811@news.concentric.net> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <356F3D6A.234D987A@no.spam.stormtech.com> <3576a485.153147722@news.america.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.31.36.26 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 See ye here, rljoiner@mindspring.nospam.com (Randall Joiner) crafted the following words: >Just look at what a single >bird with attitude problems caused to happen to communications... I >heard (2nd hand, reliable source though) tell some thousands of >doctor's spent that night at the hospital cause they couldn't be paged >if things went wrong... Is it just me, or does anyone else wonder why these MDs didn't just go home, and leave their home phone numbers with the nurse/switchboard who would have otherwise paged them? What's wrong with phoning? Sure, you can't go out to dinner in this situation without telling them the number of the restaurant etc, but that's how they handled it before pagers. jc All email sent to the address used for this post is deleted unread (although headers may be used in my spam filters). To reach my real email box, send to personal@ at the above domain. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.nyu.edu!btnet-peer!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,rec.org.mensa,comp.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 08:59:15 +0100 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <3577A553.2EC52B80@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <6kueof$fc0$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <357320E1.MD-0.198.no@spam.he.re> <3575BCBF.18FB9E4F@no.spam.stormtech.com> <0Ejd1.714$On1.2746917@ptah.visi.com> <3575DB18.5AA190B4@no.spam.stormtech.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 897047518 nnrp-03:963 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 12 adam wrote: > Now there was a movie called the "Forbin Project" ...which I have several times cited as The Movie With The Worst Ending Of All Time, it is dreadful and totally unbelievable. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: jmfbah@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Fri, 05 Jun 98 11:45:35 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 49 Message-ID: <6l8osa$ogp$1@strato.ultra.net> References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <356E7EAA.2EF94594@stoneweb.com> <3578ac96.17205590@news.innet.be> <3570B06F.3E6C@anet-stl.com> <6krg78$89g$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <3576bbe6.159133100@news.america.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: d4.dial-17.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 5 Jun 1998 12:38:34 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!peer.news-uk.wisper.net!194.106.32.13.MISMATCH!peer.news-uk.wisper.net!news.freedom2surf.net!btnet-peer!btnet!newsfeed.internetmci.com!209.6.107.173!newsfeed.xcom.net!news.ultranet.com!d4 [1 unfamiliar newsgroup snipped] In article <3576bbe6.159133100@news.america.net>, rljoiner@mindspring.nospam.com (Randall Joiner) wrote: >jmfbahxx@ma.ultranet.com wrote: [I don't know who did write the following, but I didn't since I'm not 20 [thankful emoticon here] :-)] >>>How old are you? I'm but 20 and I know the origin of "hacker". A Hacker is >>>one who creates hacks. A hack is a piece of code (or other engineering not >>>necessarily even having to do with computers) that is compact, ingenious, >>>does what it's supposed to do, doesn't break anything else, is fast, etc. >>>IIRC it's origin lies deep within the MIT(?) miniture railroad club and >>>was passed on to the MIT computer types. Later the tree-huggin, >>>data-freeing, flower children of the 60's started breaking into systems >>>and usurped the term from it's rightful owners. >>> > >Hack can also be a joke/prank that is well-done or notorious (also >from MIT). I can't remember the URL, but there's an MIT site that >actually postes present and past "Hacks" that have happened on campus >or done by students. My favorite has got to be the MIT dorm life >one... > >Someone mentioned eariler that guru and hacker are similar in >meaning... While not official, I've noted that guru tends to be used >in conjunction with something descriptive, and hacker is generally >left without modifier's/qualifier's (Except the word true, denoting >the Jargon definition instead of the public/media definition). Ie. >He's a Unix guru, and a true hacker. > >A couple of good rules of thumb on when to use the words guru/hacker >and "cracker" is: Cracker's destroy or violate, hacker's create or >modify... A hacker's satisfaction comes from his hack, a Cracker's >satisfaction comes from his peer's accolades... > >Randall Joiner > Well, JMF was considered to be a guru. I never heard anyone refer to him as a hacker and he was the best in the business. /BAH ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!europa.clark.net!209.69.36.218!news1.ispnews.com!news11.ispnews.com!not-for-mail From: walksaloneNODOT@ala.net (walksalone) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,rec.org.mensa,comp.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 13:03:23 GMT Organization: Iron Horse Lines: 31 Message-ID: <3580ec0f.9359110@news.ala.net> References: <6kueof$fc0$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <357320E1.MD-0.198.no@spam.he.re> <3575BCBF.18FB9E4F@no.spam.stormtech.com> <0Ejd1.714$On1.2746917@ptah.visi.com> <3575DB18.5AA190B4@no.spam.stormtech.com> <357758BA.99C93AE0@no.spam.stormtech.com> Reply-To: walkaloneNODOT@ala.net NNTP-Posting-Host: alawan7-asav.ala.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news12.ispnews.com 897054974 15737 206.107.27.177 (5 Jun 1998 13:56:14 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Jun 1998 13:56:14 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 apologies for the cross posts. On Fri, 05 Jun 1998 02:33:41 GMT, Pepijn Schmitz wrote: >adam wrote: >> >> A file of zero bytes still takes up a cluster. >> For NTFS that 4096 bytes, FAT16 it depends upon >> the size of the disk (1/65535 of the disk), I forgot >> what FAT32 uses, probably similar to NTFS. > >On FAT, zero byte files use no clusters at all, just a directory entry. >I'm pretty sure that the same goes for NTFS and efs2. > >/Pepijn could you guys trim this to the appropriate newsgroup, seven is a bit much & likely OT for most of them. TIA philosophy: questions seeking answers that may never be found. religion: answers that may never be questioned, especially by one not of the faith. take care & strive to be happy the politically incorrect walksalone @ ala .net close it up to get it right ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 18:54:57 GMT Organization: . Lines: 22 Message-ID: <35781baf.1265029@news.innet.be> References: <6kueof$fc0$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <357320E1.MD-0.198.no@spam.he.re> <3575BCBF.18FB9E4F@no.spam.stormtech.com> <0Ejd1.714$On1.2746917@ptah.visi.com> <3575DB18.5AA190B4@no.spam.stormtech.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-231-6.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes "adam" told us (plus the five other ng's I snipped) > A file of zero bytes still takes up a cluster. > For NTFS that 4096 bytes, FAT16 it depends upon > the size of the disk (1/65535 of the disk), I forgot > what FAT32 uses, probably similar to NTFS. Nitpicking part: A file of one byte takes up a cluster, one of zero bytes takes up nothing - as was already said by someone else. Serious part: I've got a question: is the figure of 4096 bytes for NTFS incorrect, or is NT explorer just lying to me? I'm not familiar with NTFS internals, but I know how to start explorer and look at a file's properties. Doing that on a small file just now (in a 2G partition) gave me the following line in the middle of the properties window: size: 252 bytes (252 bytes), 512 bytes used. ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: 05 Jun 1998 23:56:27 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <35636536.51BE@arxacnet.com> <6k5bve$qkm@panix2.panix.com> <6kl4ln$rmo$2@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <356E7EAA.2EF94594@stoneweb.com> <3578ac96.17205590@news.innet.be> <3570B06F.3E6C@anet-stl.com> <6krg78$89g$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <3576bbe6.159133100@news.america.net> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 rljoiner@mindspring.nospam.com (Randall Joiner) writes: > A couple of good rules of thumb on when to use the words guru/hacker > and "cracker" is: Cracker's destroy or violate, a.f.u: Terminology Error: _Crashers_ are the ones that destroy, sabotage. Crackers (old definition) break copy protection. Crackers (new definition)* intrude (no need for this to be destructive). > hacker's create or modify... Hackers (old definition) creat ingenious stuff. Hackers (new definition)* intrude (like Crackers (new definition). * both new uses are unfair to the original group. So keep to Crasher (for destructive intruders) or use Intruder or Breakin or ... But don't missuse the word Cracker; after all you don't like the press missusing Hacker, do you? -- private: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ office: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ WinCE car, crashing soon on a road near you ###### From: Ian Stirling <000035DC84C3.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 21:19:16 +0100 Organization: None. Message-ID: <000035DC84C3.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> References: <6kplpb$85p$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> <3576bf0d.159940319@news.america.net> <358234eb.0@aedes.isd.net> <6lufp9$cqs$5@thorn.cc.usm.edu> X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 903647543 mail2news:13682 mail2news mail2news.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mail2News-Path: news.demon.net!post-20.mail.demon.net!post.mail.demon.net![158.152.209.66]!mauve.demon.co.uk User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971106 (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.34 (i586)) X-Note: Anti-UCE in effect, replying should work if you are not UCE'ng X-Warning0: For unsolicited commercial email, sent or causing to be sent to my email address X-Warning1: on this message, I reserve the right to levy a charge for my time and expenses X-Warning2: of up to 100 pounds sterling per message, plus legal, penalty or other costs. Lines: 29 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!btnet-peer!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Jim M. Pierce wrote: : Scott Stevens wrote: : [] Actually, historically a pirate was a "privateer" which meant : [] an individual or private group licensed by one government to : [] prey on ships sailing under the flag of a different government(s). : False. Privateers were NOT pirates. Your history knowledge is : lacking, or is purposely mistated to cover the activities of the real : software pirates. : Real pirates preyed on whatever ships they felt like looting. : Privateers were licensed by a government to attack shipping of a : second government the first one was at war with or about to go to : war with. : Not the same thing. And interestingly, the USA never signed the declaration of paris, 1856, and can still issue letters of marque and reprisal, authorising privateering. (or does any other legislation remove this right?) -- See http://www.mauve.demon.co.uk/ |Linux PDA, cheap electronics/PC bits sale. See_header,_for_UCE_policy___________|_____________________________Ian_Stirling. Two fish in a tank: one says to the other, you know how to drive this thing?? ###### From: David Scheidt Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "Giant computer in Belgium" UL: original source Supersedes: <6rib8s$bl3$1@eve.enteract.com> Date: 20 Aug 1998 23:30:55 GMT Organization: EnterAct L.L.C. Turbo-Elite News Server Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <6kplpb$85p$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> <3576bf0d.159940319@news.america.net> <358234eb.0@aedes.isd.net> <6lufp9$cqs$5@thorn.cc.usm.edu> <000035DC84C3.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: David Scheidt NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.229.143.6 X-Superseded-By: David Scheidt X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 970115] Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.enteract.com!dscheidt Ian Stirling <000035DC84C3.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> wrote: : And interestingly, the USA never signed the declaration of paris, 1856, : and can still issue letters of marque and reprisal, authorising privateering. : (or does any other legislation remove this right?) The US signed the Declaration of Paris during, or shortly after, the US Civil War. David "Computers banned under Paris, are they?" Scheidt