Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!Cabal.CESspool!uninett.no!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!feeder.news.azstarnet.com!reader1.news.azstarnet.com!news From: bill_h Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.apl Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 19:47:07 -0700 Organization: Starnet Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3568DBAB.42D9@azstarnet.com> References: <6kaepf$1gd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Reply-To: bill_h@azstarnet.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 169.197.38.171 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win16; I) If you're lucky, you may find one in a thrift shop for ten bucks. If someone in a newsgroup like alt.folklore.computers has one, they'll likely know they're bringing anywhere from $500 to $2000 these days. Early and RARE computers are in a sellers market presently. A number of us are on the lookout for them. I kept one of the two complete sets of manuals of the last 5100 I found and am thinking about scanning them to cd-rom for the curious. Keep a note of my address, in case you find one without manuals and decide you might need a copy. If I find another 5100, it'll go up on Ebay to let folks fight it out. Bill Tucson ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.he.net!scanner.worldgate.com!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!crash.videotron.ab.ca!not-for-mail From: jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.apl Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 15:12:58 GMT Organization: Videotron Communications Ltd. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <35698a16.3322436@news.prosurfr.com> References: <6kaepf$1gd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c9169-004.prosurfr.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 oldcomp58@hotmail.com wrote: >Hello, >I wish to purchase a IBM 5100(or 5110) computer. Please advise >of a reasonable purchase price or if any of you have one how much >for it? Your best bet to purchase one at a reasonable price is to look for sales of surplus assets by: - universities or colleges - hospitals and especially government surplus. I've never seen one of these show up in a thrift shop, although some other interesting items have. John Savard ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsin.agis.net!agis!newsfeeder.triton.net!news2.triton.net!not-for-mail From: fernande@internet1.net Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.apl Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Date: 26 May 1998 16:37:10 GMT Organization: Triton Technologies, Inc Lines: 31 Message-ID: <6ker3m$qgr$2@news2.triton.net> References: <35698a16.3322436@news.prosurfr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.250.31.170 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.09.2 On 1998-05-25 jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca(JohnSavard) said: >>Hello, >>I wish to purchase a IBM 5100(or 5110) computer. Please advise >>of a reasonable purchase price or if any of you have one how much >>for it? >Your best bet to purchase one at a reasonable price is to look for >sales of surplus assets by: >- universities or colleges >- hospitals >and especially government surplus. >I've never seen one of these show up in a thrift shop, although some >other interesting items have. >John Savard Hmm...I am not familiar with this model, as I haven't had a chance to be exposed to a lot of older stuff. Is this the model that has a keyboard the size of a Commodore Vic-20 and the monitor/cpu are one unit, and the keyboard connector is HUGE (about as big as centronics 50)? If so, I might be able to get my hands on one or two. BTW, I keep on checking the local GoodWill store, but I never find anything good, just dumb stuff like a real old dot-matrix printer for $25 and a keybaord for $10. I probably am not in a big enough city. Chad A. Fernandez Battle Creek, MI Net-Tamer V 1.09.2 - Test Drive ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!ais.net!newsfeed.wli.net!news.he.net!scanner.worldgate.com!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!crash.videotron.ab.ca!not-for-mail From: jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.apl Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 16:10:45 GMT Organization: Videotron Communications Ltd. Lines: 29 Message-ID: <356c39c6.1992297@news.prosurfr.com> References: <35698a16.3322436@news.prosurfr.com> <6ker3m$qgr$2@news2.triton.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: c9169-004.prosurfr.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 fernande@internet1.net wrote: >Hmm...I am not familiar with this model, as I haven't had a chance to be >exposed to a lot of older stuff. Is this the model that has a keyboard the >size of a Commodore Vic-20 and the monitor/cpu are one unit, and the >keyboard connector is HUGE (about as big as centronics 50)? If so, I might >be able to get my hands on one or two. That's probably a Kaypro or an Osborne I, from the sound of it, but I'm not sure. The IBM 5100 had a keyboard with white keys, except for shift, backspace, etc., which were black. The keyboard, the computer, and the monitor, were all one unit. The monitor was small - about 5" diagonal. But the case wasn't enormous, like that of the Osborne I, instead it was just big enough vertically for the monitor screen. The screen was on the left-hand side of the case. On the right of it, there were first switches - and then a large-size tape-cartridge drive, using the 3M tape cartridges also used for backing up hard disks. The keyboard was distinguished by the fact that, like an Atari, it had a key between the Z key and the left-hand shift key, annoying to touch-typists. John Savard ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail From: oldcomp58@hotmail.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.apl Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 06:32:12 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 21 Message-ID: <6kj0dc$3e3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <35698a16.3322436@news.prosurfr.com> <6ker3m$qgr$2@news2.triton.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.154.202.181 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu May 28 06:32:12 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC, Nav) > Hmm...I am not familiar with this model, as I haven't had a chance to be > exposed to a lot of older stuff. Is this the model that has a keyboard the > size of a Commodore Vic-20 and the monitor/cpu are one unit, and the > keyboard connector is HUGE (about as big as centronics 50)? If so, I might > be able to get my hands on one or two. > BTW, I keep on checking the local GoodWill store, but I never find anything > good, just dumb stuff like a real old dot-matrix printer for $25 and a > keybaord for $10. I probably am not in a big enough city. > > Chad A. Fernandez > Battle Creek, MI > > Net-Tamer V 1.09.2 - Test Drive > No the 5100 was an all in one. You can find some information on it at: . -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-stock.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!cannon.demon.co.uk!ray From: Ray Cannon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.apl Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 23:14:27 +0100 Organization: Mafia Message-ID: References: <35698a16.3322436@news.prosurfr.com> <6ker3m$qgr$2@news2.triton.net> <356c39c6.1992297@news.prosurfr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cannon.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: cannon.demon.co.uk:158.152.109.1 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 896568108 nnrp-06:7059 NO-IDENT cannon.demon.co.uk:158.152.109.1 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike (16) Version 3.05 Lines: 28 In article <356c39c6.1992297@news.prosurfr.com>, John Savard writes >The keyboard was distinguished by the fact that, like an Atari, it had >a key between the Z key and the left-hand shift key, annoying to >touch-typists. This was not true of all IBM 5100's. The graphics in Gilman and Rose (2nd edition) of the 5100, does NOT show this extra key, but they DO state in the text that "On some keyboards, you will find that several extra characters, such as @, &, # $ are available." There were two main (Latin based) AT stlye keyboards, 101 keys for the USA and 102 keys for the UK, German, French, Itlian, Spanish, Swiss, Danish, Norwegian, Finish..... On Laptops, US models have 86 keys while others have 87 keys. (With the advent of Windows 95, 3 extra keys have been added.) The non-US keyboards all seem to have this extra key "between the Z key and the left-hand shift". Certanly this extra key was on the 5100 I used in South Africa. Ray Ray Cannon Computer Consultant and Webmaster of www.vector.org.uk E-mail Ray_Cannon@compuserve.com Compuserve account 100430,740 ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!bosworth From: bosworth@waterw.com (James L. Ryan) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.apl Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 19:10:30 -0400 Organization: Taliesin Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <35698a16.3322436@news.prosurfr.com> <6ker3m$qgr$2@news2.triton.net> <356c39c6.1992297@news.prosurfr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-020.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 The presence of a key between Z and Shift was in conformity with an ISO keyboard layout standard and was a feature of the original IBM PC keyboard. This caused the left Shift key to move one key further outward. The result was that the "down and out" action required to strike the shift key became symmetric for both hands. In my opinion this corrected a long time deficiency in the layout of keyboards, at least in the United States of which I am familiar. I had one of those original IBM PCs and had no trouble whatsoever touch-typing on it. A result of eliminating this key between Z and Shift was the now common placement of this key (which contains \ and |) above the right Shift key where it is awkward to reach. -- James L. Ryan -- bosworth@waterw.com ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.apl Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!europa.clark.net!208.134.241.18!newsfeed.internetmci.com!192.107.41.5!iglou!news From: bmarcum@iglou.com Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 X-Nntp-Posting-Host: lou-ts2-12.iglou.com X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X X-Nntp-Posting-User: [unauthenticated] Message-ID: Sender: news@iglou.com (News) Organization: IgLou Internet Services (1-800-436-4456) References: <356c39c6.1992297@news.prosurfr.com> Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 20:16:55 GMT Lines: 23 On 1998-05-27 jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca(JohnSavard) said: >fernande@internet1.net wrote: >>Hmm...I am not familiar with this model, as I haven't had a chance >>to be exposed to a lot of older stuff. Is this the model that has >>a keyboard the size of a Commodore Vic-20 and the monitor/cpu are >>one unit, and the keyboard connector is HUGE (about as big as >>centronics 50)? If so, I might be able to get my hands on one or >two. >That's probably a Kaypro or an Osborne I, from the sound of it, but >I'm not sure. The Kaypro's keyboard cable looks like a telephone cord, with modular handset-type connectors. I think the Osborne was similar. IIRC, the manual warned you not to substitute a telephone cord for the keyboard cord. >The keyboard was distinguished by the fact that, like an Atari, it >had a key between the Z key and the left-hand shift key, annoying to >touch-typists. >John Savard You mean an Atari ST? The XL and XE commputers did not have a key between Z and left shift. Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.apl Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Date: 31 May 1998 20:19:57 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 53 Message-ID: References: <35698a16.3322436@news.prosurfr.com> <6ker3m$qgr$2@news2.triton.net> <356c39c6.1992297@news.prosurfr.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 bosworth@waterw.com (James L. Ryan) writes: > The presence of a key between Z and Shift was in conformity with an ISO > keyboard layout standard Anyone got the ISO standard number for Keyboard layout? > keyboard. This caused the left Shift key to move one key further outward. Nope. It caused the left shift key to be shortened from 2 1/2 to 1 1/2 normal key widths. On the 101 key board both skift keys are the same size. > The result was that the "down and out" action required to strike the shift > key became symmetric for both hands. In my opinion this corrected a long > time deficiency in the layout of keyboards Many people would take an dislike in you for that statement. Most Americans I have heard of regard the 102th key as an abomination. I would also prefer an 101 key board (as I had up until 3 years ago). But I have got used to (= I can tolerate it) the small left shift. I don't even misshit < instead of space any more. > at least in the United States > of which I am familiar. AFAIK the 102th key is only on non-US keyboards. Because the presence of additional charcters required more keys (although 1 key is nowhere near enough, so in the end the right Alt key became an 3rt position shift key, making the 102th key an unneccessary oddity). For example the 102th key on this keyboard I am using (SG layout) has < > and \ on it. > A result of eliminating this key > between Z and Shift was the now common placement of this key (which > contains \ and |) above the right Shift key where it is awkward to reach. Nope. The key above the right shift got put there when the large vertical Return key was introduced, before then that key used the space where now the top half of return is. Return used the space now shared by the bottom half of return and the \| key. My sister still has such a keyboard, I mis-hit Return every time. -- private: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ office: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ WinCE car, crashing soon on a road near you ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.wli.net!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!bosworth From: bosworth@waterw.com (James L. Ryan) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.apl Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 22:00:48 -0400 Organization: Taliesin Lines: 67 Message-ID: References: <35698a16.3322436@news.prosurfr.com> <6ker3m$qgr$2@news2.triton.net> <356c39c6.1992297@news.prosurfr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-632.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 In article , Neil Franklin wrote: > bosworth@waterw.com (James L. Ryan) writes: > > The presence of a key between Z and Shift was in conformity with an ISO > > keyboard layout standard > > Anyone got the ISO standard number for Keyboard layout? > Sorry, I don't have a reference, but my recollection was that there was an ISO standard for keyboard layout. > > > keyboard. This caused the left Shift key to move one key further outward. > > Nope. It caused the left shift key to be shortened from 2 1/2 to 1 1/2 > normal key widths. On the 101 key board both skift keys are the same size. The left shift key was indeed moved outward by a key width. The widths of the outboard keys were not specified, and were dependent upon the choices of the keyboard manufacturer. > > > > The result was that the "down and out" action required to strike the shift > > key became symmetric for both hands. In my opinion this corrected a long > > time deficiency in the layout of keyboards > > Many people would take an dislike in you for that statement. Most > Americans I have heard of regard the 102th key as an abomination. I'll accept that the keyboard layout used in the original IBM PC was unpopular, but that doesn't address the fact that it was more ergonimacally sound than the layouts in use. > > I would also prefer an 101 key board (as I had up until 3 years ago). > But I have got used to (= I can tolerate it) the small left shift. I > don't even misshit < instead of space any more. > > > > at least in the United States > > of which I am familiar. > > AFAIK the 102th key is only on non-US keyboards. Because the presence > of additional charcters required more keys (although 1 key is nowhere > near enough, so in the end the right Alt key became an 3rt position > shift key, making the 102th key an unneccessary oddity). > > For example the 102th key on this keyboard I am using (SG layout) has > < > and \ on it. > > > > A result of eliminating this key > > between Z and Shift was the now common placement of this key (which > > contains \ and |) above the right Shift key where it is awkward to reach. > > Nope. The key above the right shift got put there when the large > vertical Return key was introduced, before then that key used the space > where now the top half of return is. Return used the space now shared > by the bottom half of return and the \| key. > > My sister still has such a keyboard, I mis-hit Return every time. -- James L. Ryan -- bosworth@waterw.com ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!serv.hinet.net!spring.edu.tw!feeder.seed.net.tw!news.seed.net.tw!!dski From: Dan Strychalski Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.apl Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Date: 1 Jun 1998 03:09:34 GMT Organization: Cameo Communications, Inc. Lines: 13 Message-ID: <6kt61e$rgn@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.72.104.4 Originator: dski@ James L. Ryan (bosworth@waterw.com) wrote -- >> Anyone got the ISO standard number for Keyboard layout? > > Sorry, I don't have a reference, but my recollection was that there was an > ISO standard for keyboard layout. ECMA-23 (if I have the number right) was probably identical to whatever ISO had. It seems to have been quietly retracted as standards organizations gave up hope of reversing the insanity that has long ruled keyboard design. Dan Strychalski dski at cameonet, cameo, com, tw (no _x_) ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!serv.hinet.net!spring.edu.tw!feeder.seed.net.tw!news.seed.net.tw!!dski From: Dan Strychalski Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.apl Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Date: 1 Jun 1998 07:32:31 GMT Organization: Cameo Communications, Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: <6ktlef$6tn@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.72.104.4 Originator: dski@ Neil Franklin (neil@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch) wrote -- > AFAIK the 102th key is only on non-US keyboards. Because the presence > of additional charcters required more keys (although 1 key is nowhere > near enough, so in the end the right Alt key became an 3rt position > shift key, making the 102th key an unneccessary oddity). > > For example the 102th key on this keyboard I am using (SG layout) has > < > and \ on it. When it comes to peecee keyboards, I doubt that it is much of an exaggeration, and I suspect that as far as "major" manufacturers go (those that Murkystuff refers to as its "OEMs" -- y'know, vassal firms like IBM, Compaq, and Dell) it is no exaggeration at all to say that there is no such thing as a non-U.S. keyboard. Non-U.S. *keycaps* and *keyboard drivers*, yes, but no non-U.S. keyboards. You can therefore also say that there are no U.S. keyboards -- just... keyboards, all electrically identical, each particular model made with the same chips, board, mechanisms, interface, and housing, regardless of where it is sold. The only difference is in the keycaps and the driver, and maybe the name plate and LED labels. Gotta be cost-effective, y'know. Dan Strychalski dski at cameonet, cameo, com, tw (no _x_) ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!ubnnews.unisource.ch!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter.cosy.sbg.ac.at!news.cs.utwente.nl!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!nyd.news.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.chips.ibm.com!mdnews.btv.ibm.com!not-for-mail From: David Liebtag Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.apl Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 10:28:02 -0700 Organization: IBM APL Products and Services Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3572E4A2.2B83B8E3@stlvm20.vnet.ibm.com> References: <6ktlef$6tn@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: liebtagd.stl.ibm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; U) Dan Strychalski wrote: > When it comes to peecee keyboards, I doubt that it is much of an > exaggeration, and I suspect that as far as "major" manufacturers go > (those that Murkystuff refers to as its "OEMs" -- y'know, vassal firms > like IBM, Compaq, and Dell) it is no exaggeration at all to say that > there is no such thing as a non-U.S. keyboard. It's pretty clear to me you haven't written an APL keyboard handler for world-wide use. There are two distinct keyboards for use in Europe and the Americas. Plus, there are a variety of keyboards for use in countries with large national languages like Japan and China. Oh how I wish there were only one keyboard,,, :-) Regards, David Liebtag IBM APL Products and Services ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!128.174.5.49!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail From: eric@fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 X-Nntp-Posting-Host: fudge.uchicago.edu Message-ID: Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) X-Newsposter: Pnews 4.0-test51 (15 Jan 97) Organization: The University of Chicago References: <356c39c6.1992297@news.prosurfr.com> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 17:42:05 GMT Lines: 15 In article , wrote: > >The keyboard was distinguished by the fact that, like an Atari, it > >had a key between the Z key and the left-hand shift key, annoying to > >touch-typists. > You mean an Atari ST? The XL and XE commputers did not have a key between > Z and left shift. It was the Atari 400 and 800 that had the extra "Atari" key stuck in there. When the keyboard was redesigned for the XL series, it became the inverse video key and was moved out to the edge of the keyboard. eric ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!nac!scanner.worldgate.com!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!crash.videotron.ab.ca!not-for-mail From: jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.apl Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 20:49:11 GMT Organization: Videotron Communications Ltd. Lines: 39 Message-ID: <357311e8.19202762@news.prosurfr.com> References: <35698a16.3322436@news.prosurfr.com> <6ker3m$qgr$2@news2.triton.net> <356c39c6.1992297@news.prosurfr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c9169-004.prosurfr.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 bosworth@waterw.com (James L. Ryan) wrote: >In article , Neil Franklin > wrote: >> Many people would take an dislike in you for that statement. Most >> Americans I have heard of regard the 102th key as an abomination. >I'll accept that the keyboard layout used in the original IBM PC was >unpopular, but that doesn't address the fact that it was more >ergonimacally sound than the layouts in use. The original IBM PC, of course, used an extra key between the ?/ key and the right-hand shift key. I touch-type, and I find that the interposition of an extra key, whether between Z and the left-hand shift key, or between ?/ and the right-hand shift key to be objectionable. Of course, that's because it isn't what I'm used to. Since, however, the shift keys are wide, and their centers are some distance away from the edges towards the center of the keyboard of them, I don't see how that standard keyboard can be less "ergonomically sound" than one which forces a further reach with the little finger for so common a function as the shift. Also note that the standard position of the shift keys is what people are used to from countless electric - and manual - typewriters as well, not just computers. It would be much preferable to take seldom-used characters and put them outside the main typing area than to create constant problems and errors involving the shift keys. The layout of IBM's present 101-key keyboard is ideal, as the backspace and Enter keys are also in their correct places ( backspace - after +=, enter - after "' ) rather than pushed outwards by one character. Of course, the top half of the Enter key is missing to accomodate }] and |\, but that is a small price to pay to have all of ASCII conveniently available. John Savard ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!scanner.worldgate.com!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!crash.videotron.ab.ca!not-for-mail From: jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.apl Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 20:50:31 GMT Organization: Videotron Communications Ltd. Lines: 15 Message-ID: <357313e7.19714237@news.prosurfr.com> References: <356c39c6.1992297@news.prosurfr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c9169-004.prosurfr.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 bmarcum@iglou.com wrote: >On 1998-05-27 jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca(JohnSavard) said: > >The keyboard was distinguished by the fact that, like an Atari, it > >had a key between the Z key and the left-hand shift key, annoying to > >touch-typists. > >John Savard >You mean an Atari ST? The XL and XE commputers did not have a key between >Z and left shift. No, but IIRC, the Atari 800 and 600 had a key in this unfortunate position. John Savard ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.nyu.edu!island.idirect.com!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!scanner.worldgate.com!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!crash.videotron.ab.ca!not-for-mail From: jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.apl Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 20:54:47 GMT Organization: Videotron Communications Ltd. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <3573144c.19814999@news.prosurfr.com> References: <6ktlef$6tn@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: c9169-004.prosurfr.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 Dan Strychalski wrote: >When it comes to peecee keyboards, I doubt that it is much of an >exaggeration, and I suspect that as far as "major" manufacturers go >(those that Murkystuff refers to as its "OEMs" -- y'know, vassal firms >like IBM, Compaq, and Dell) it is no exaggeration at all to say that >there is no such thing as a non-U.S. keyboard. No; if you will look at the ads in the back of Personal Computer World or other British computer magazines, you will find that the keyboards pictured pretty well all have one extra key over and above the number of keys on a U.S. keyboard. Also, look at the keyboard layouts illustrated in the back of the manual for DOS 5 (the last one that really had a manual...). Since British typewriters don't generally have a key in that position, I would have thought there'd be a market for computer keyboards with that extra key put in a more inconspicuous position (say, to the _right_ of the right-hand shift key). John Savard ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!bosworth From: bosworth@waterw.com (James L. Ryan) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.apl Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 22:15:54 -0400 Organization: Taliesin Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <35698a16.3322436@news.prosurfr.com> <6ker3m$qgr$2@news2.triton.net> <356c39c6.1992297@news.prosurfr.com> <357311e8.19202762@news.prosurfr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-082.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 In article <357311e8.19202762@news.prosurfr.com>, jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) wrote: > It would be much preferable to take seldom-used characters and put > them outside the main typing area than to create constant problems and > errors involving the shift keys. As a touch typist I had no difficulty whatsoever adapting to the original IBM PC keyboard which had the |\ key between Z and left-shift. One thing I do find annoying is those keyboards that relegate keys to arcane positions. My recollection is that British keyboards do indeed routinely place a key between Z and left-shift. -- James L. Ryan -- bosworth@waterw.com ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!stns.news.pipex.net!hose.news.pipex.net!grot.news.pipex.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.apl Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 22:35:48 +0100 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <35731EB4.37B3D94D@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <6ktlef$6tn@news.seed.net.tw> <3572E4A2.2B83B8E3@stlvm20.vnet.ibm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 896739752 nnrp-09:19040 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 11 David Liebtag wrote: > Oh how I wish there were only one keyboard,,, :-) There is. Every ASR33 came with one. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!24.128.1.125!chnws03.mediaone.net!24.131.1.12!denws01.mw.mediaone.net!news.gmi.edu!nova.kettering.edu!lee1089 From: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.apl Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 00:40:00 -0400 Organization: Kettering University (formerly GMI E&MI) - Flint MI Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <35698a16.3322436@news.prosurfr.com> <6ker3m$qgr$2@news2.triton.net> <356c39c6.1992297@news.prosurfr.com> <357311e8.19202762@news.prosurfr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: nova.kettering.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, James L. Ryan wrote: > In article <357311e8.19202762@news.prosurfr.com>, > jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) wrote: > > > It would be much preferable to take seldom-used characters and put > > them outside the main typing area than to create constant problems and > > errors involving the shift keys. > > > As a touch typist I had no difficulty whatsoever adapting to the original > IBM PC keyboard which had the |\ key between Z and left-shift. One thing I > do find annoying is those keyboards that relegate keys to arcane > positions. My recollection is that British keyboards do indeed routinely ^^^^^^^ > place a key between Z and left-shift. Try "European". ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!serv.hinet.net!spring.edu.tw!feeder.seed.net.tw!news.seed.net.tw!!dski From: Dan Strychalski Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.apl Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Date: 2 Jun 1998 06:13:18 GMT Organization: Cameo Communications, Inc. Lines: 32 Message-ID: <6l055u$q6v@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.72.104.4 Originator: dski@ David Liebtag (liebtag@stlvm20.vnet.ibm.com) wrote -- > It's pretty clear to me you haven't written an APL keyboard handler for > world-wide use. There are two distinct keyboards for use in Europe and > the Americas. Plus, there are a variety of keyboards for use in > countries with large national languages like Japan and China. Please note that I am in Taiwan. Keyboards sold on the local market are identical to U.S. keyboards except for the keycaps. I type Chinese on keyboards with and without the special keycaps. The keyboards come in boxes with check-off squares for U.S. English, Chinese, Arabic, and I forget what else. Again: only the keycaps and labels are different. I used to work next door to AST Taiwan. I needed scratch paper, and the folks at AST never printed on both sides of a sheet, so I got my scratch paper (and gobs of cables, connectors, floppies, and other paraphernalia) from bins in the truck bay they shared with us. One day I picked up a bunch of keyboard design drawings: U.S., U.K., France, Spain, Germany, Portugal, Italy.... Held them up against the light in pairs. All identical except for the symbols on the keycaps. Someone mentioned the MS-DOS 5.0 manual; as I remember it, the drawings in there show the same number of keys and the same scan codes for all countries. I have it at home; I also have an early AT Technical Reference and some other books with this kind of info. I'll check 'em again. There were many differences between the keyboards included with the 1984 and 1986 versions of the AT (the second was the "enhanced"; excuse me while I puke...). Those might be the two keyboard types you now have to deal with. Dan Strychalski dski at cameonet, cameo, com, tw (no _x_) ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!24.128.1.125!chnws03.mediaone.net!24.131.1.12!denws01.mw.mediaone.net!news.gmi.edu!nova.kettering.edu!lee1089 From: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.apl Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 20:53:58 -0400 Organization: Kettering University (formerly GMI E&MI) - Flint MI Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <6l055u$q6v@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: nova.kettering.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: On 3 Jun 1998, Neil Franklin wrote: > Dan Strychalski writes: > > from bins in the truck bay they shared with us. One day I picked up a > > bunch of keyboard design drawings: U.S., U.K., France, Spain, Germany, > > Portugal, Italy.... Held them up against the light in pairs. All > > identical except for the symbols on the keycaps. > > > > There were many differences between the keyboards included with the 1984 > > and 1986 versions of the AT (the second was the "enhanced"; excuse me > > while I puke...). Those might be the two keyboard types you now have to > > deal with. > > Nope. we are talking about the 101 and 102 key variants of what IBM > calles the MF-II keyboard. For clarification some ASCII art: > > > U.S. version: European version (Swiss keycaps): > > -------------------- -------------------- > | Caps | A | S | | Caps | A | S | > | lock | | | | lock | | | > -------------------- -------------------- > | Shift | Y | X | Shf | > | Y | X > | Left | | | Lef | < | | > -------------------- -------------------- > > The < and > key is the 102th key on the European version. I thought I paid decent attention to the keyboards in Europe and I thought the 'Y' key shown above was a 'Z'. I know for a fact, however that the US layout is a 'Z' not a 'Y'. The 'Y' is the 6th letter in the top row (hence the name Qwerty). ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.wli.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!inetserv2.fs.lmco.com!notify@fs.lmco.com From: Jack Rudd Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.apl Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 00:19:16 -0600 Organization: Lockheed Martin Federal Systems Lines: 41 Message-ID: <3574EAE4.167E@lmco.com> References: <35698a16.3322436@news.prosurfr.com> <6ker3m$qgr$2@news2.triton.net> <356c39c6.1992297@news.prosurfr.com> <357311e8.19202762@news.prosurfr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: proxy-gw.fs.lmco.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; U; AIX 2) John Savard wrote: > > I touch-type, and I find that the interposition of an extra key, > whether between Z and the left-hand shift key, or between ?/ and the > right-hand shift key to be objectionable. You folks who touch-type APL code will rightly think that what I'm about to describe is no big deal. I remember it fondly as a humorous cultural clash. In 1974-75 I worked on the statistics package (a library of statistics functions and workspaces) that was to be provided with the IBM 5100. (This was one of my very few non-aerospace projects.) I did most of the work under mainframe APLSV, and then took the hardcopy listings to IBM in Rochester, Minnesota to enter them and their test data onto auxiliary storage for the 5100. If I recall correctly, one tape cartridge could hold about 300K bytes. One workspace held at most about 25K bytes. When I arrived at Rochester, I was given one blank tape to work with, and I was given time on the machine from 10pm to 6am every night. The first night I filled up more than half the tape, so the next afternoon I asked for another tape. At first my exhorbitant request was refused. I then explained that I would fill up the cartrige before the end of the second night. The master of the cartridges replied, "That's impossible. Show me." I sat down at the machine, laid out my large stack of hard copy listings, and started entering a function. He stared in slack-jawed astonishment, since he had never seen or heard of anyone who touch-typed APL code. At length he asked, "How many tapes will you need altogether?" A marketeer came in one night to watch the process. About 3am he said, "This is great. I'd better get some sack time, though. I'm booked on an 8:30 flight to Boca. I need to go down and stroke my boss." These experiences made me suspect that the commercial world is different enough from my experience so as to be largely incomprehensible. Jack Rudd ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.apl Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Date: 03 Jun 1998 00:56:20 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <6l055u$q6v@news.seed.net.tw> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Dan Strychalski writes: > from bins in the truck bay they shared with us. One day I picked up a > bunch of keyboard design drawings: U.S., U.K., France, Spain, Germany, > Portugal, Italy.... Held them up against the light in pairs. All > identical except for the symbols on the keycaps. > > There were many differences between the keyboards included with the 1984 > and 1986 versions of the AT (the second was the "enhanced"; excuse me > while I puke...). Those might be the two keyboard types you now have to > deal with. Nope. we are talking about the 101 and 102 key variants of what IBM calles the MF-II keyboard. For clarification some ASCII art: U.S. version: European version (Swiss keycaps): -------------------- -------------------- | Caps | A | S | | Caps | A | S | | lock | | | | lock | | | -------------------- -------------------- | Shift | Y | X | Shf | > | Y | X | Left | | | Lef | < | | -------------------- -------------------- The < and > key is the 102th key on the European version. -- private: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ office: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ WinCE car, crashing soon on a road near you ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!serv.hinet.net!spring.edu.tw!feeder.seed.net.tw!news.seed.net.tw!!dski From: Dan Strychalski Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.apl Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Date: 3 Jun 1998 03:18:27 GMT Organization: Cameo Communications, Inc. Lines: 25 Message-ID: <6l2fa3$no8@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.72.104.4 Originator: dski@ * From lee1089@kettering.edu came -- > I thought I paid decent attention to the keyboards in Europe and I thought > the 'Y' key shown above was a 'Z'. I know for a fact, however that the US > layout is a 'Z' not a 'Y'. The 'Y' is the 6th letter in the top row (hence > the name Qwerty). Leaving aside for a moment the question at hand -- whether big-name peecee manufacturers go to the expense of making keyboards with different numbers of keys for the European and North American markets -- let me provide as a reference the arrangements of the ASCII letter keys on AST laptops: Belgian and French A Z E R T Y U I O P Q S D F G H J K L M W X C V B N German and Swiss Q W E R T Z U I O P A S D F G H J K L Y X C V B N M Danish, Dutch, Italian, Q W E R T Y U I O P Norwegian, Portuguese, A S D F G H J K L Spanish, Swedish, UK, USA Z X C V B N M Dan Strychalski dski at cameonet, cameo, com, tw (no _x_) ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!peer.news.zetnet.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail From: genew@vip.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.apl Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 17:01:43 GMT Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com Message-ID: <3574f002.6681856@news.vip.net> References: <35698a16.3322436@news.prosurfr.com> <6ker3m$qgr$2@news2.triton.net> <356c39c6.1992297@news.prosurfr.com> <357311e8.19202762@news.prosurfr.com> <3574EAE4.167E@lmco.com> Reply-To: genew@vip.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.209.212.59 X-Trace: 896893164 A01OARAUVD43BCCD1C usenet14.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Lines: 33 Jack Rudd wrote: >John Savard wrote: >> >> I touch-type, and I find that the interposition of an extra key, >> whether between Z and the left-hand shift key, or between ?/ and the >> right-hand shift key to be objectionable. > >You folks who touch-type APL code will rightly think that what I'm >about to describe is no big deal. I remember it fondly as a humorous >cultural clash. Neat. It's definitely a case of getting used to something not mainstream. On a smaller scale, I had to enter a Spanish manual once and found that I could touch-type it at close to normal speed even though I don't know Spanish. I even managed to do some well-needed editing on it. I was blazing away including entering Alt codes for the accented characters. [snip] >These experiences made me suspect that the commercial world is different >enough from my experience so as to be largely incomprehensible. I think it's the "If I can't do it, no one can." mentality. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko C Pronunciation Guide: y=x++; "wye equals ex plus plus semicolon" x=x++; "ex equals ex doublecross semicolon" ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.maz.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!masternews.telia.net!news-stkh.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed1.funet.fi!news.funet.fi!news.clinet.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!learnet.freenet.hut.fi!not-for-mail From: "S. T." Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.apl Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Date: 3 Jun 98 21:30:13 +0300 Organization: Freenet Finland Lines: 28 Message-ID: <3575C064.MD-0.198.no@spam.he.re> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin-0-20.evitech.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: MicroDot-II/AmigaOS 0.198 (lee1089@kettering.edu) wrote on Tue, 2 Jun 1998 20:53:58 -0400: > On 3 Jun 1998, Neil Franklin wrote: > > Nope. we are talking about the 101 and 102 key variants of what IBM > > calles the MF-II keyboard. For clarification some ASCII art: > > > > > > U.S. version: European version (Swiss keycaps): > > > > -------------------- -------------------- > > | Caps | A | S | | Caps | A | S | > > | lock | | | | lock | | | > > -------------------- -------------------- > > | Shift | Y | X | Shf | > | Y | X > > | Left | | | Lef | < | | > > -------------------- -------------------- > > > > The < and > key is the 102th key on the European version. > > I thought I paid decent attention to the keyboards in Europe and I thought > the 'Y' key shown above was a 'Z'. I know for a fact, however that the US > layout is a 'Z' not a 'Y'. The 'Y' is the 6th letter in the top row (hence > the name Qwerty). Most European keymaps have a "Z" there, AFAIK "Y" is used in the German-speaking areas. I've come across some programs that use scancodes instead of "cooked" input, and they produce a "Y" even when I press "Z". ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.apl Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Date: 03 Jun 1998 21:45:22 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <6l055u$q6v@news.seed.net.tw> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 writes: > On 3 Jun 1998, Neil Franklin wrote: > > -------------------- -------------------- > > | Shift | Y | X | Shf | > | Y | X > > | Left | | | Lef | < | | > > -------------------- -------------------- > > > > The < and > key is the 102th key on the European version. > > I thought I paid decent attention to the keyboards in Europe and I thought > the 'Y' key shown above was a 'Z'. That depends on which set of keycaps you have! On the Brittish/UK one you have the Z there, like on the US one. On the German/GR and the Swiss/SG (which I am using here) the Z and Y are exchanged, so you get Y there. The French exchange even more combinations, landing with AZERTY up top, so I would assume Q or W to be there (I saw this years ago). > I know for a fact, however that the US > layout is a 'Z' not a 'Y'. The 'Y' is the 6th letter in the top row (hence > the name Qwerty). Argghhh. Those pesky layouts. I was drawing an keyboard, so guess which key I pressed? Yep, the one corresponding in position. On this SG keyboard there is of course an Y on it. If I had done the left graphic at work (US keyboard) there would have been an Z there. -- private: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ office: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ WinCE car, crashing soon on a road near you ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.nyu.edu!island.idirect.com!newsfeed.interlog.com!news.interlog.com!not-for-mail From: lwalkerN0SpaM@interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 01:06:55 GMT Organization: Interlog Internet Services Lines: 25 Message-ID: <357cee99.112160200@news.interlog.com> References: <356c39c6.1992297@news.prosurfr.com> <357313e7.19714237@news.prosurfr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209-20-2-122.dialin.interlog.com NNTP-Posting-Time: 4 Jun 1998 01:06:15 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 On Mon, 01 Jun 1998 20:50:31 GMT, jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) wrote: >bmarcum@iglou.com wrote: >>On 1998-05-27 jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca(JohnSavard) said: > >> >The keyboard was distinguished by the fact that, like an Atari, it >> >had a key between the Z key and the left-hand shift key, annoying to >> >touch-typists. >> >John Savard > >>You mean an Atari ST? The XL and XE commputers did not have a key between >>Z and left shift. > >No, but IIRC, the Atari 800 and 600 had a key in this unfortunate >position. > >John Savard Nope. I just rechecked my ST, 130xe, 800 , and 800xl . Can't say for sure about the 600 and 400 , but I doubt it. ciao larry Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!peer.news.zetnet.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!masternews.telia.net!newspost.telia.com!news.lejonet.se!not-for-mail From: Ingvar Mattsson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.apl Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Date: 04 Jun 1998 19:35:02 +0200 Organization: Foreningen Lejonet, Linkoping, Sweden Message-ID: References: <6l2fa3$no8@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: ns.idasys.se X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Lines: 19 Dan Strychalski writes: > Danish, Dutch, Italian, Q W E R T Y U I O P > Norwegian, Portuguese, A S D F G H J K L > Spanish, Swedish, UK, USA Z X C V B N M I do hope the Swedish keyboard looks like: ... O P Å ...K L Ö Ä ..M The funny things at the end might not look like much, but writing my native tounge without them is a PITA. //Ingvar (used his own keyboard as a reference) -- Sysadmin, disgruntled, unpolite. I don't speak for my employer nor do they speak for me. Accept this and life will be easier. ingvar@idasys.se ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!fci-se!fci!europa.clark.net!208.134.241.18!newsfeed.internetmci.com!152.163.199.19!portc03!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: fuboco@aol.com (Fuboco) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Lines: 3 Message-ID: <1998060503544000.XAA00770@ladder03.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder03.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 05 Jun 1998 03:54:39 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <3575C064.MD-0.198.no@spam.he.re> I think he was just looking for a used IBM 5100, not a lot of talk about old keyboards.. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!fci-se!fci!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: wjapinga@aol.com (WJapinga) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Lines: 20 Message-ID: <1998060504233800.AAA04177@ladder03.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder03.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 05 Jun 1998 04:23:38 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <3572E4A2.2B83B8E3@stlvm20.vnet.ibm.com> >It's pretty clear to me you haven't written an APL keyboard handler for >world-wide use. There are two distinct keyboards for use in Europe and >the Americas. Plus, there are a variety of keyboards for use in >countries with large national languages like Japan and China. > >Oh how I wish there were only one keyboard,,, :-) > >Regards, >David Liebtag >IBM APL Products and Services > > Is IBM (or anyone) still doing things with APL these days? I haven't seen much reference to APL since I taught it to freshman at the Wharton School in 1977. Couple of years later, I worked on some business software using APL hooked up to (?) Scientific Time Sharing Corp. (STSC). Pre-PC and paying for computer time by the minute. APL was always so much fun, though. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.102.31.251!news.cmc.net!holocron.odc.net!not-for-mail From: mwestfal@mail.odc.net (Mike Westfall) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Date: 5 Jun 1998 05:02:46 GMT Organization: Digital Odyssey Internet Services Lines: 37 Message-ID: <6l7u5m$d7q$1@holocron.odc.net> References: <356c39c6.1992297@news.prosurfr.com> <357313e7.19714237@news.prosurfr.com> <357cee99.112160200@news.interlog.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vorlon.odc.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] >>> >The keyboard was distinguished by the fact that, like an Atari, it >>> >had a key between the Z key and the left-hand shift key, annoying to >>> >touch-typists. >>> >John Savard >> >>>You mean an Atari ST? The XL and XE commputers did not have a key between >>>Z and left shift. >> >>No, but IIRC, the Atari 800 and 600 had a key in this unfortunate >>position. My first computers were Ataris, both 8-bit and ST. When I got my first PC clone with 101 key keyboard, I was constantly annoyed by accidently hitting the Caps Lock key, because it is right between the shift and tab keys. It STILL annoys me. The Caps Lock on the Ataris was in a more sensible (to me) place. (although it's been such a long time that I don't remember where they were on the keyboard....) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike mwestfal@odc.net http://web.csusb.edu/public/csci/mwestfal Linux religious dogma: "The Gates of Hell shall not prevail." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!ais.net!newsfeed.wli.net!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!bosworth From: bosworth@waterw.com (James L. Ryan) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.apl Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 07:23:02 -0400 Organization: Taliesin Lines: 53 Message-ID: References: <6l8cdt$9bo@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-663.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 In article <6l8cdt$9bo@news.seed.net.tw>, Dan Strychalski wrote: > So what's the difference for programmers? Are the scan codes all jumbled > around because of that one additional key (on a keyboard with about 40 > keys too many to begin with)? > > And about the 5100 (remember the 5100?) -- did it use EBCDIC or ASCII? I didn't think that the key between Left Shift and the lower-leftmost character key was extra. I thought it was just relocated from elsewhere on the keyboard. As an aside, with my Macintosh I can at any time, say while in the middle of typing a line of text, choose to use one of some twenty different national keyboard layouts. For some countries there is more than one choice, for example, three for Canada and two each for Spain and Switzerland. Some of these keyboard layouts provide for "inert" accenting, that is, you press a key which places an accent, and then you can press the key which places a letter in the same position as the accent. The Macintosh has four typewriter area modifier keys, Shift, Command, Option, and Control, Shift and Option being used for character entry, and Command and Control for other actions. In addition to receiving the glyph associated with a key, a running program has access to a language independent code which identifies they key itself. I would expect that the 5100 used EBCDIC, as that was pretty much the IBM standard at the time the 5100 was introduced. My recollection is that the vendors of IBM hardware hosted APLs had to at one time buy non-IBM hardware in order to support ASCII devices. STSC used Memorex controllers for that purpose. A bit of history. In the early seventies when I was in charge of APL/700 at Burroughs, I had the opportunity of adding six additional characters to the then 88 characters (excluding overstrikes) in the APL set. My original choices were left and right braces, a dollar sign and cent sign (the intent was to provide two national option currency symbols) and both an "upward" and "downward" triangle of three dots. At the suggestion of Ken Iverson these dot triangles were replaced with "forward" and "backward" uppercase sigmas. At the APL conference in Atlanta (1973?) a meeting was held with the purpose of obtaining an agreement on the six additional characters. There was universal agreement on the inclusion of the left and right braces and a single currency symbol. Larry Breed, then with STSC, suggested that it would be useful to have more characters for drawing plots, this resulted in inclusion of the left and right tacks. Larry Breed also suggested that it would be useful to have another character which could be used to compose overstrikes. My suggestion, which was accepted, was to include a "diamond" character. The amusing thing is that I'm not aware of anyone having used diamond as a composite (or overstrike) component. -- James L. Ryan -- bosworth@waterw.com ###### From: "Tomas Gustafsson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.apl Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 08:22:27 +0300 Organization: Scifi Communications International, http://www.sci.fi/, helpdesk@sci.fi, +358 3 2899111 Lines: 12 Message-ID: <6l8gr1$q0i$1@tron.sci.fi> References: <6l2fa3$no8@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: dcccxiii.hdyn.sci.fi X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!fci-se!fci!masternews.telia.net!nntp.se.dataphone.net!news-feed.sto.telegate.se!nntp.inet.fi!news.sci.fi!not-for-mail Ingvar Mattsson wrote in message ... :I do hope the Swedish keyboard looks like: :... O P Å :...K L Ö Ä :..M The Swedish AND the Finnish, my neighbor. This is called the Scandinavian keyboard. Tomas ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail From: oldcomp58@hotmail.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 08:59:34 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 13 Message-ID: <6l8c1m$4e2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <3575C064.MD-0.198.no@spam.he.re> <1998060503544000.XAA00770@ladder03.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.154.202.10 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Jun 05 08:59:34 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC, Nav) In article <1998060503544000.XAA00770@ladder03.news.aol.com>, fuboco@aol.com (Fuboco) wrote: > > I think he was just looking for a used IBM 5100, not a lot of talk about old > keyboards.. > Yeah but old keyboard talk is rather interesting. I guess there arn't any 5100's looking for homes. -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!serv.hinet.net!spring.edu.tw!feeder.seed.net.tw!news.seed.net.tw!!dski From: Dan Strychalski Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.apl Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Date: 5 Jun 1998 09:06:05 GMT Organization: Cameo Communications, Inc. Lines: 37 Message-ID: <6l8cdt$9bo@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.72.104.4 Originator: dski@ BON-N-N-N-NG -- it appears I was wrong. I've found an MS-DOS 6.22 user's guide that shows keyboard layouts for various countries. (The key shapes are presumably those on keyboards made by a minor Microsoft OEM called IBM.) In the Belgium, Canada, Croatia/Slovenia/Serbia (Yugoslavia), Czech Republic, Denmark, France, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Latin America, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Spain, Sweden/Finland, Switzerland, and United Kingdom layouts, left Shift is only slightly wider than a character key, and a punctuation or symbol key is interposed between left Shift and the first letter key to its right (which would be Z on a U.S. board). These layouts also all have a vertically elongated Return/Enter key hardly wider than a character key at its base. On the keyboard of the original IBM 5150, left Shift was hardly wider than a character key, backslash/bar was interposed between left Shift and Z, and Return/Enter was a vertically elongated key no wider than a character key -- and many people in the U.S. SCREAMED BLOODY MURDER because of these departures from the basic Selectric design. Interesting. In the MS-DOS 6.22 user's guide illustrations, the U.S. layout is the ONLY one in which left Shift is about twice the width of a character key and butts right up against the first letter key to its right, and in which Return/Enter is a slab at least twice the width of a character key.... Hey! What happened to the cancerous backwards-L Return/Enter key I see on all the clones around me? These diagrams CAN'T be right... ;-) I'm STILL gonna check the diagrams in the AT Technical Reference and the MS-DOS 5.0 manual... if I can find them.... So what's the difference for programmers? Are the scan codes all jumbled around because of that one additional key (on a keyboard with about 40 keys too many to begin with)? And about the 5100 (remember the 5100?) -- did it use EBCDIC or ASCII? Dan Strychalski dski at cameonet, cameo, com, tw (no _x_) ###### From: richard@mindlink.net (Richard Hennick) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: wanted IBM 5100 Date: Fri, 05 Jun 98 09:23:48 -0700 Organization: MIND LINK! Lines: 25 Distribution: world Message-ID: <94735-897063828@paralynx.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mindlink.net X-Auth-Poster: richard@paralynx.com Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.vphos.net!paralynx!paralynx-1!204.174.16.2.MISMATCH!paralynx!news.mindlink.net!paralynx-2!paralynx.com!a972 In article <6l8cdt$9bo@news.seed.net.tw>, dski@cameonet.cameo.com.twx (Dan Strychalski) writes: > In the MS-DOS 6.22 user's guide illustrations, the U.S. layout is the > ONLY one in which left Shift is about twice the width of a character key > and butts right up against the first letter key to its right, and in > which Return/Enter is a slab at least twice the width of a character > key.... > [snip] > I'm STILL gonna check the diagrams in the AT Technical Reference and the > MS-DOS 5.0 manual... if I can find them.... Dan, I have checked my MS-DOS 5.0 manual, and the keyboard layouts are exactly as you described (except of course that back then, there was only one for Yugoslavia, and the Czech and Slovak ones are both shown under Czechoslovakia). Also, on the Belgian keyboard only, the CapsLock key is labelled Shift Lock instead. Anyone know if the actual *functioning* of that key was different too; i.e. did it shift the entire keyboard, or just the alphabet? --