Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!149.59.105.10!asbestos.atl.com!newshost.atl.com!news From: daveg@XOUT.u.washington.edu (David B. Greene) Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.misc,misc.survivalism,alt.politics.usa.misc Subject: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 18:46:56 GMT Organization: U Dub Lines: 30 Message-ID: <3552003c.15393013@newshost> References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dgree2_pc.atl.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Robert Egan wrote: >Check out this article. It's pretty long, so don't stop reading at >Heritage Farms. It goes on to talk about nuclear power plants, railroads >and deliveries to coal fired power plants, and our own US federal >government. > > http://www.techweek.com/articles/Survive.html > >Cheers >Robert Egan > >PS: For those who do hardcopy, check out yesterday's WSJ for a hard >hitting Y2K preview from Ed Yardeni. He's the chief economist at >Deutsche Morgan Grenfell. A typical quote: > >"We must prepare for the possibility of business failures and the >collapse of essential U.S. government services..." This is of course bullshit. It is just a scare tactic for programmers to LOOT the public purse. Already Y2K checks and fixes are being implemented. If there was a big problem our economy would already be tweaking by now as computer systems are now scheduling activities into the next millenium. So far the problems have been minor. I might add that anything making it more difficult for the Feds to retrieve archived information on the citizens of this country would be a welcome step towards electronic privacy. Dave Greene ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: Robert and Frances Egan Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.misc,misc.survivalism,alt.politics.usa.misc Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 15:34:19 -0400 Organization: Netcom Lines: 52 Message-ID: <3556013B.1C07@ix.netcom.com> References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <3552003c.15393013@newshost> Reply-To: nospam_allowed@ix.netcom.com NNTP-Posting-Host: bos-ma9-20.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Sun May 10 12:34:17 PM PDT 1998 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; U) Wow. The DL on this list just keeps growing. The folks of rec.org.mensa, sci.skeptic, sci.astrology, and misc.survivalism already know where I stand on this issue. They should probably stop reading now...... David. I can certainly appreciate your point of view. I can even understand it. But I must inform you that it is not shared by those responsible for insuring the public's safety. If you don't believe this claim, I can supply you with dozens of news stories confirming it. David B. Greene wrote: > > This is of course bullshit. It is just a scare tactic for programmers > to LOOT the public purse. Actually, Dave, the government can't really afford to pay programmer's out of the public purse. They are becoming too expensive as private companies hire them to fix this "bullshit". > Already Y2K checks and fixes are being implemented. But why? If this is ""bullshit", fixes shouldn't be needed. > If there was a big problem our economy would already be > tweaking by now as computer systems are now scheduling activities into > the next millenium. So far the problems have been minor. But problems have already occurred. I have already supplied URLs for a few of them to some these newsgroups. They have been minor because very few things look that far into the future. But you can expect (statistically) that the frequency will increase as 12/31/99 approaches and more things look past it. As these minor problems affect more and more people, they may suddenly seem less minor. > > I might add that anything making it more difficult for the Feds to > retrieve archived information on the citizens of this country would be > a welcome step towards electronic privacy. > > Dave Greene I suppose you have a point there. Though I am a little concerned that the government may react to this loss of control by declaring martial law. So let's hope they do keep things under control, because I for one don't want to live under martial law. Cheers Robert Egan -- To reply by email: nospam_allowed ==> egan263 ###### Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.misc,misc.survivalism,alt.politics.usa.misc Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <3552003c.15393013@newshost> <3556013B.1C07@ix.netcom.com> Organization: Nyx Net, Free Internet access (www.nyx.net) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test63 (15 March 1998) From: anon5961@nyx10.nyx.net (Name withheld by request) X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a Free Public Access Internet Service: http://www.nyx.net Our AUP / Free Speech Policy are at http://www.nyx.net/policies/ Direct complaints to abuse@nyx.net Message-ID: <894835619.770414@iris.nyx.net> X-Post-Lines: 62 Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 21:28:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: iris.nyx.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 15:28:03 MDT Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!colt.net!news.freedom2surf.net!easynet-tele!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.124.0.31!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!iris.nyx.net!anon5961@nyx10.nyx.net Lines: 59 In article <3556013B.1C07@ix.netcom.com>, Robert and Frances Egan wrote: >Wow. The DL on this list just keeps growing. > >The folks of rec.org.mensa, sci.skeptic, sci.astrology, and >misc.survivalism already know where I stand on this issue. They should >probably stop reading now...... > >David. I can certainly appreciate your point of view. I can even >understand it. But I must inform you that it is not shared by those >responsible for insuring the public's safety. If you don't believe this >claim, I can supply you with dozens of news stories confirming it. > >David B. Greene wrote: >> >> This is of course bullshit. It is just a scare tactic for programmers >> to LOOT the public purse. > >Actually, Dave, the government can't really afford to pay programmer's >out of the public purse. They are becoming too expensive as private >companies hire them to fix this "bullshit". > >> Already Y2K checks and fixes are being implemented. > >But why? If this is ""bullshit", fixes shouldn't be needed. > >> If there was a big problem our economy would already be >> tweaking by now as computer systems are now scheduling activities into >> the next millenium. So far the problems have been minor. > >But problems have already occurred. I have already supplied URLs for a >few of them to some these newsgroups. They have been minor because very >few things look that far into the future. But you can expect >(statistically) that the frequency will increase as 12/31/99 approaches >and more things look past it. As these minor problems affect more and >more people, they may suddenly seem less minor. > >> >> I might add that anything making it more difficult for the Feds to >> retrieve archived information on the citizens of this country would be >> a welcome step towards electronic privacy. >> >> Dave Greene > >I suppose you have a point there. Though I am a little concerned that >the government may react to this loss of control by declaring martial >law. So let's hope they do keep things under control, because I for one >don't want to live under martial law. > > >Cheers >Robert Egan >-- >To reply by email: nospam_allowed ==> egan263 Their is no such thing as martial law in the Constitution. It is really a misnomer, and is something a militray commander uses -- by force of arms -- to restore order; when civil authority has broken down. ###### From: p.kerr@auckland.ac.nz (Peter Kerr) Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.misc,misc.survivalism,alt.politics.usa.misc Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: 11 May 1998 02:39:02 GMT Organization: School of Music University of Auckland Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <3552003c.15393013@newshost> NNTP-Posting-Host: p.kerr.mus.auckland.ac.nz X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b6 Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!202.36.121.24!news.iprolink.co.nz!clear.net.nz!auckland.ac.nz!p.kerr daveg@XOUT.u.washington.edu (David B. Greene) wrote: > This is of course bullshit. It is just a scare tactic for programmers > to LOOT the public purse. Already Y2K checks and fixes are being > implemented. If there was a big problem our economy would already be > tweaking by now as computer systems are now scheduling activities into > the next millenium. So far the problems have been minor. Yeah, in our country it's called "She'll be right", or also "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" Now come 1.1.2000 I expect to see a significant number of heads down, tails up, Mr Fixits busy on whatever did actually break. I also expect that a certain number of them may never again come up for air... -- Peter Kerr bodger School of Music chandler University of Auckland NZ neo-Luddite ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news.voicenet.com!news-xfer.atlantic.net!news1.atlantic.net!not-for-mail From: jmason@iu.net (j) Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.misc,misc.survivalism,alt.politics.usa.misc Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Message-ID: <35570692.10511263@news.iu.net> References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <3552003c.15393013@newshost> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 47 Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 14:17:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: netport3-55.iu.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 10:17:16 EDT On Thu, 07 May 1998 18:46:56 GMT, daveg@XOUT.u.washington.edu (David B. Greene) wrote: >This is of course bullshit. It is just a scare tactic for programmers >to LOOT the public purse. Already Y2K checks and fixes are being >implemented. If there was a big problem our economy would already be >tweaking by now as computer systems are now scheduling activities into >the next millenium. So far the problems have been minor. >I might add that anything making it more difficult for the Feds to >retrieve archived information on the citizens of this country would be >a welcome step towards electronic privacy. I program for a living. Y2K is NOT a joke. It permeates almost every bit of software in existence - industrial, military and commercial. Much of my own old code assumes a "19xx" date scheme and the logic which follows from that assumption all has to be re-done. For example, it was often practical to convert the numeric date into letter strings ... in order to trim out redundant junk or for formatting purposes. Sometimes this was changed back into numbers afterwards. It ALL has to be re-done. There are no easy or automated fixes because the REASONING of the program must be carefully analyzed. And why did they wait so long to address this problem ??? Because that's what they ALWAYS do ... procrastinate. It's time-consuming and expensive, so they kept putting it off .... or those who knew nada about computers imagined it would be quick and easy or that the computer would "just know" what to do. Ignorance & cheapness. That's why Y2K is such a major problem now. Wait until your local nuke plant screws up because of this - or your airliners computer - or a cruise missile - or (worst of all) the local sewage treatment plant. -j . ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news1.best.com!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!fc.hp.com!news From: Jim Rogers Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.misc,misc.survivalism,alt.politics.usa.misc Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 18:18:34 -0600 Organization: Archaeological (Lower strata contain older files) Lines: 47 Message-ID: <6j84gq$82f@fcnews.fc.hp.com> References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <3552003c.15393013@newshost> <35570692.10511263@news.iu.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: hpesjfr.fc.hp.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; HP-UX A.09.03 9000/735) j wrote: > ... daveg@XOUT.u.washington.edu (David B. Greene) wrote: > >This is of course bullshit. It is just a scare tactic for programmers > >to LOOT the public purse. ... > I program for a living. Y2K is NOT a joke. It permeates almost > every bit of software in existence - industrial, military and > commercial. Much of my own old code assumes a "19xx" > date scheme and the logic which follows from that assumption > all has to be re-done. For example, it was often practical to > convert the numeric date into letter strings ... in order to > trim out redundant junk or for formatting purposes. Sometimes > this was changed back into numbers afterwards. It ALL > has to be re-done. There are no easy or automated fixes > because the REASONING of the program must be > carefully analyzed. And it's not just the _programs_ that have to be fixed, but fixed for all of the "old format" data bases that they might access. Good luck finding all those data bases the first time. When fixing the software, you'll have to recognize that an old-format data base is being accessed, and trap to some routine to reformat the entire file, because the old format won't have enough space allocated to store updated Y2K-enabled dates. So even when you "fix the software," the problem's not over, because every time you hit some data base file you didn't yet convert, there's likely to be this incredibly long pause before your transaction can continue. How much of that can major businesses put up with while trying to function? > And why did they wait so long to address this problem ??? > Because that's what they ALWAYS do ... procrastinate. > It's time-consuming and expensive, so they kept putting > it off .... or those who knew nada about computers > imagined it would be quick and easy or that the computer > would "just know" what to do. > > Ignorance & cheapness. That's why Y2K is such a major > problem now. Wait until your local nuke plant screws up > because of this - or your airliners computer - or a cruise > missile - or (worst of all) the local sewage treatment plant. Has the market on COBOL programmers taken off, yet? Jim ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: Robert and Frances Egan Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.misc,misc.survivalism,alt.politics.usa.misc Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 18:59:10 -0400 Organization: Netcom Lines: 19 Message-ID: <355782BE.2283@ix.netcom.com> References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <3552003c.15393013@newshost> <35570692.10511263@news.iu.net> <6j84gq$82f@fcnews.fc.hp.com> Reply-To: nospam_allowed@ix.netcom.com NNTP-Posting-Host: bos-ma10-20.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 11 5:44:04 PM PDT 1998 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; U) Yes, and No. Yes for programmers with specialization on arcane operating systems, but not really for good 'ol generic COBOL code crankers. Variations in price are also highly regional. The real newsgroups for discussing this are news:comp.lang.cobol and news:comp.software.year-2000 . Cheers Robert Egan Jim Rogers wrote: > > Has the market on COBOL programmers taken off, yet? > > Jim -- To reply by email: nospam_allowed ==> egan263 ###### Message-ID: <35574200.3057@rawrats.com> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 19:22:56 +0100 From: Me Reply-To: postmaster@lostvegas.com Organization: The Inertia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.misc,misc.survivalism,alt.politics.usa.misc Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <3552003c.15393013@newshost> <3556013B.1C07@ix.netcom.com> <894835619.770414@iris.nyx.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.112.55.138 Lines: 78 Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!peer.news.nildram.co.uk!peer1.news.dircon.net!newsread1.dircon.co.uk!news.dircon.co.uk!194.112.55.138 Name withheld by request wrote: > > In article <3556013B.1C07@ix.netcom.com>, > Robert and Frances Egan wrote: > >Wow. The DL on this list just keeps growing. > > > >The folks of rec.org.mensa, sci.skeptic, sci.astrology, and > >misc.survivalism already know where I stand on this issue. They should > >probably stop reading now...... > > > >David. I can certainly appreciate your point of view. I can even > >understand it. But I must inform you that it is not shared by those > >responsible for insuring the public's safety. If you don't believe this > >claim, I can supply you with dozens of news stories confirming it. > > > >David B. Greene wrote: > >> > >> This is of course bullshit. It is just a scare tactic for programmers > >> to LOOT the public purse. > > > >Actually, Dave, the government can't really afford to pay programmer's > >out of the public purse. They are becoming too expensive as private > >companies hire them to fix this "bullshit". > > > >> Already Y2K checks and fixes are being implemented. > > > >But why? If this is ""bullshit", fixes shouldn't be needed. > > > >> If there was a big problem our economy would already be > >> tweaking by now as computer systems are now scheduling activities into > >> the next millenium. So far the problems have been minor. > > > >But problems have already occurred. I have already supplied URLs for a > >few of them to some these newsgroups. They have been minor because very > >few things look that far into the future. But you can expect > >(statistically) that the frequency will increase as 12/31/99 approaches > >and more things look past it. As these minor problems affect more and > >more people, they may suddenly seem less minor. > > > >> > >> I might add that anything making it more difficult for the Feds to > >> retrieve archived information on the citizens of this country would be > >> a welcome step towards electronic privacy. > >> > >> Dave Greene > > > >I suppose you have a point there. Though I am a little concerned that > >the government may react to this loss of control by declaring martial > >law. So let's hope they do keep things under control, because I for one > >don't want to live under martial law. > > > > > >Cheers > >Robert Egan > >-- > >To reply by email: nospam_allowed ==> egan263 > > Their is no such thing as martial law in the Constitution. It is > really a misnomer, and is something a militray commander uses -- > by force of arms -- to restore order; when civil authority has > broken down. Can I just jump into this debate here. There are problems with Y2K compliance, and furthermore some pretty important systems are likely to fail because date errors will send the software up untested conditional branches to untrapped errors, causing unpredictable problems. The worst hit are likely to be complex software systems that were never exhaustively system tested to ensure that the components worked properly together. One of these is the satellite tracking system formerly known as Navstar. The consequence of this is as follows. On December 31st 1999 at midnight it will not be safe to: a) Get in an airliner or b) go deep sea fishing It will be safe to a) Steal a yacht b) Steal a Mercedes c) Launch an all out nuclear attack on the USA(Yippeee!!!!!) ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.gte.net!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: nickb@primenet.com (Nick S Bensema) Newsgroups: seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,alt.religion.kibology Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: 11 May 1998 20:31:00 -0700 Organization: PrImE NuT (602)864-1005 <--- <--- <--- Lines: 29 Message-ID: <6j8fpk$3m9@nntp02.primenet.com> References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <35570692.10511263@news.iu.net> <6j84gq$82f@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <6j86eh$2k4@star.Hi.COM> X-Posted-By: nickb@206.165.6.203 (nickb) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test58 (13 May 97) In article <6j86eh$2k4@star.Hi.COM>, Andrew Rogers wrote: >It sure has. Not just programmers, but compiler specialists as well - it's >been 15 years since I've seen a line of PL/I and well over 20 since I've >seen a line of COBOL, but that doesn't stop headhunters from cold-calling >me every few months on behalf of client companies seeking people to write >COBOL and/or PL/I front ends for use in Y2K automated conversion tools. I >presume they're getting my name from the ACM/SIGPLAN mailing list, even >though I haven't been a member in years. How do I get on this list? I probably wasn't born when you escaped from COBOL slavery, but I bet there's a list and I just want to mess with someone's head who's trying to buy me, and not sell me something. And some of them might give me free airline tickets, and still others might try to lure me in by having beautiful women call me. When I show up at the nice restaurant and she finds out I'm 20, the story of how I defrauded everyone might be fascinating enough to turn the interview into a mildly successful date, though I'll probably have to pay for the meal at least. Unless she decides to escape through the ladies' room window and call her legal department to see how many counts the company can sue me on. Or can the company sue me if I try any of this? -- Nick Bensema 98-KUPD Red Card #710563 UIN: 2135445 ~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.gte.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news-feed1.tiac.net!sunfish.hi.com!star.Hi.COM!not-for-mail From: rogers@star.Hi.COM (Andrew Rogers) Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.misc,misc.survivalism,alt.politics.usa.misc Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: 11 May 1998 20:51:29 -0400 Organization: Dead Skunk In The Information Superhighway Lines: 17 Message-ID: <6j86eh$2k4@star.Hi.COM> References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <3552003c.15393013@newshost> <35570692.10511263@news.iu.net> <6j84gq$82f@fcnews.fc.hp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: star.hi.com In article <6j84gq$82f@fcnews.fc.hp.com> Jim Rogers writes: >> Ignorance & cheapness. That's why Y2K is such a major >> problem now. Wait until your local nuke plant screws up >> because of this - or your airliners computer - or a cruise >> missile - or (worst of all) the local sewage treatment plant. > >Has the market on COBOL programmers taken off, yet? It sure has. Not just programmers, but compiler specialists as well - it's been 15 years since I've seen a line of PL/I and well over 20 since I've seen a line of COBOL, but that doesn't stop headhunters from cold-calling me every few months on behalf of client companies seeking people to write COBOL and/or PL/I front ends for use in Y2K automated conversion tools. I presume they're getting my name from the ACM/SIGPLAN mailing list, even though I haven't been a member in years. Andrew ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!Cabal.CESspool!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed.wli.net!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!paperboy.telerama.com!lordkaNO.SPAM From: lordkaNO.SPAM@telerama.com (Lord Kano) Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.misc,misc.survivalism,alt.politics.usa.misc Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 01:29:57 -0400 Organization: Overmind Knowledge Society Lines: 81 Message-ID: References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <3552003c.15393013@newshost> NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.171.44.210 X-Trace: 894950912 BPIPSDRGT2CD2CCABC usenet77.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.3.6b1 In article <3552003c.15393013@newshost>, daveg@XOUT.u.washington.edu (David B. Greene) wrote: >Robert Egan wrote: > >>Check out this article. It's pretty long, so don't stop reading at >>Heritage Farms. It goes on to talk about nuclear power plants, railroads >>and deliveries to coal fired power plants, and our own US federal >>government. >> >> http://www.techweek.com/articles/Survive.html >> >>Cheers >>Robert Egan >> >>PS: For those who do hardcopy, check out yesterday's WSJ for a hard >>hitting Y2K preview from Ed Yardeni. He's the chief economist at >>Deutsche Morgan Grenfell. A typical quote: >> >>"We must prepare for the possibility of business failures and the >>collapse of essential U.S. government services..." >This is of course bullshit. It is just a scare tactic for programmers >to LOOT the public purse. Already Y2K checks and fixes are being >implemented. If there was a big problem our economy would already be >tweaking by now as computer systems are now scheduling activities into >the next millenium. So far the problems have been minor. Many corporations who have HIGHLY paid analysts have opted to pay through the nose for these same programmers. Hundreds-thousands of financial, industrial, corporate, and governmental computers are running custom programs that are build from MILLIONS of lines of custom coded source. Each designed to handle a two digit date. It's possible to fix the shortcomings in those systems before y2k in most cases but people who program cobol on unix boxes aren't as common a C++ programmers for mac/windows. These people are providing a valuable service. Companies, and government institutions are paying them so well because they want to make sure that they have the best people on their teams. >I might add that anything making it more difficult for the Feds to >retrieve archived information on the citizens of this country would be >a welcome step towards electronic privacy. Ditto. -- http://www.telerama.com/~lordkano WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING The following Signature contains profanity and sexual inuendos. If such things offend you, read no further. Scarface only version. Last updated 02/21/1998 "You can cry, but you'll still die. There'll be no tears in the end." -No Tears: Scarface(Brad Jordan) "Boys used to die when I'l full of that fry. I'll be ampin' when I'm high so I say 'fuck' and just let bullets fly." Ming of a Lunatc:Scarface(Brad Jordan) "Black radio is beind disowned. Not by the other race. But it's own. A lot of bullshit records make hits. Because of who you know, cash flow, and politics." Do it like a G.O.:Scarface(brad Jordan) "I think it's time I paid a little visit, to my run down neighborhood cematary, to tally up the people I've buried." Another Nigger in the Morgue: Scarface(Brad Jordan) "I'm rolling through your [neighbor]'hood and now my heart is filled with anger, you're at your sister's house and now your sister's life is in danger." -No Tears: Scarface(Brad Jordan) "I sit alone in my four cornered room, staring at candles, dreaming of the people I've dismantled." -Mind of a Lunatic: Scarface(Brad Jordan) "I can fall asleep lying next to a dead man" -Another Nigger in the Morgue: Scarface(Brad Jordan) "Once I pull this motherfucker back, I'm [going to] leave the front part of your face down in your fucking lap!" -Face Mob: Scarface(Brad Jordan) "So off with your head bitch, [be] 'cause I don't fuck arourd with that return from the dead shit, I'm making sure I get you good, and if you're twitching like you're still alive, homie loc I wish you would, [be] 'cause that just gives me one more reason to grab the trigger of this motherfucking pistol and continue squeezing." -He's Dead: Scarface(Brad Jordan) ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.63.63.70!nwnews.wa.com!ixa.net!news.aa.net!not-for-mail From: bergamot@big.aa.net (Eric von Weasel) Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.misc,misc.survivalism,alt.politics.usa.misc Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: 12 May 1998 13:47:11 -0700 Organization: Section 303, Row 1, Seat 1 Lines: 42 Message-ID: <6jacgf$k0e$1@big.aa.net> References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <894835619.770414@iris.nyx.net> <35574200.3057@rawrats.com> <3558793d.10591764@news.odyssey.on.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.157.220.251 Cache-Post-Path: slave2.aa.net!unknown@big.aa.net In article <3558793d.10591764@news.odyssey.on.ca>, Pundit Gainsay wrote: >I suppose that anyone who is a naysayer could always change the date >on their computer to some time in the next century and use it for a few >weeks. Sure. And all the programs which use the system date for timestamping records and storing transaction times will be completely screwed up. >I'd suggest making a boot disk if you have a really ancient computer >though. "really ancient computers" don't have boot disks. Are you aware that "really ancient computers" don't fit comfortably on an average desktop? >Microsoft has already publically identified some glitches they will >provide patches for via their website for some minor glitches in Windows 3.1, >Windows 95 and Microsoft Office. Last I heard: Microsoft thinks that it will have Win 3.1 Y2K compliant, but probably won't be able to fix its other operating systems in time. >Most are minor but remember that some >systems in the world's infastructure are ancient. If recent software has Y2K >glitches when they were programming to avoid them how trustworthy is >code written 20 years ago for say a nuclear reactor. You don't know until you >look. Sadly, a large portion of US management is still unwilling to look. -- Quote of the Week: "I have been in peoples kill file since the day I was born ... whether on the internet or in the physical world." Monica I., seattle.general icon. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!europa.clark.net!206.246.194.8!newsxfer.visi.net!news.odyssey.on.ca!not-for-mail From: yuksrus@odyssey.on.ca (Pundit Gainsay) Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.misc,misc.survivalism,alt.politics.usa.misc Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 16:46:01 GMT Organization: Unorganized Lines: 22 Message-ID: <3558793d.10591764@news.odyssey.on.ca> References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <3552003c.15393013@newshost> <3556013B.1C07@ix.netcom.com> <894835619.770414@iris.nyx.net> <35574200.3057@rawrats.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ts5-40.odyssey.on.ca X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 I suppose that anyone who is a naysayer could always change the date on their computer to some time in the next century and use it for a few weeks. I'd suggest making a boot disk if you have a really ancient computer though. Microsoft has already publically identified some glitches they will provide patches for via their website for some minor glitches in Windows 3.1, Windows 95 and Microsoft Office. Most are minor but remember that some systems in the world's infastructure are ancient. If recent software has Y2K glitches when they were programming to avoid them how trustworthy is code written 20 years ago for say a nuclear reactor. You don't know until you look. Steve The preceding message was brought to you by the world's most retarded e-mail joke list...Yuks'R'Us!(tm). Your subscription costs you only the time it takes you to read the retarded jokes presented here. If you would like to subscribe or unsubscribe simply E-Mail: yuksrus@odyssey.on.ca Why do they call it a Wake when no one ever wakes up? ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!stns.news.pipex.net!hose.news.pipex.net!grot.news.pipex.net!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!199.74.141.7!zinger.callamer.com!not-for-mail From: HELP-U/Gerald Craig Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.misc,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 17:44:18 -0700 Organization: Call America Internet Services +1 (800) 563-3271 Lines: 7 Message-ID: <3558ECDE.4C38E3B0@theGrid.net> References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <3552003c.15393013@newshost> <3556013B.1C07@ix.netcom.com> <894835619.770414@iris.nyx.net> <35574200.3057@rawrats.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sc22-17-73.thegrid.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) You might not believe in Y2K, but even our local banks have had trouble. This week, in our local paper, an article noted how ATM cards issued by the bank, with expiration dates past 1999 were not able to access funds. Of course, everything has an expiration date. What do you think is going to happen when you try to use your Visa card that the computer says expired in 1900??? ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!199.74.141.7!zinger.callamer.com!not-for-mail From: HELP-U/Gerald Craig Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 19:15:01 -0700 Organization: Call America Internet Services +1 (800) 563-3271 Lines: 7 Message-ID: <35590209.C0F46F88@theGrid.net> References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <3552003c.15393013@newshost> <3556013B.1C07@ix.netcom.com> <894835619.770414@iris.nyx.net> <35574200.3057@rawrats.com> <3558ECDE.4C38E3B0@theGrid.net> <3558FAE4.562B@swbell.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: sc5-13-52.thegrid.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Fortunately, your bank has apparently resolved the problem, as many are currently working on it. Many functions are outsourced, so there is no guarantee that all functions will run as smoothly. It's kinda like Russian Roullette with your money. There are many merchant processing centers to handle credit card and atm transactions, and all it takes is one fautly system to disrupt your day. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!169.132.11.200!news.idt.net!newsgate.swbell.net!151.164.30.35.MISMATCH!cyclone.swbell.net!swbell!not-for-mail From: "Barbara A. Meissner" Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.misc,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 20:44:08 -0500 Organization: Southwestern Bell Internet Services, Richardson, TX Lines: 14 Message-ID: <3558FAE4.562B@swbell.net> References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <3552003c.15393013@newshost> <3556013B.1C07@ix.netcom.com> <894835619.770414@iris.nyx.net> <35574200.3057@rawrats.com> <3558ECDE.4C38E3B0@theGrid.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-207-193-29-46.snantx.swbell.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: (null) 895023906 14409 (None) 207.193.29.46 X-Complaints-To: usenet@nnrp3 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-SBMH (Macintosh; I; PPC) HELP-U/Gerald Craig wrote: > > You might not believe in Y2K, but even our local banks have had trouble. > This week, in our local paper, an article noted how ATM cards issued by > the bank, with expiration dates past 1999 were not able to access funds. > Of course, everything has an expiration date. What do you think is going > to happen when you try to use your Visa card that the computer says > expired in 1900??? Funny, my ATM card has an 00 expiration date, and I never have any trouble with it. bam ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!news.ultranet.com!not-for-mail From: "dave porter" Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.misc,misc.survivalism,alt.politics.usa.misc Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: 12 May 1998 21:51:07 GMT Organization: none of the above Lines: 61 Message-ID: <01bd7df0$00d67680$0ba17392@glastonbury> References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <894835619.770414@iris.nyx.net> <35574200.3057@rawrats.com> <3558793d.10591764@news.odyssey.on.ca> <6jacgf$k0e$1@big.aa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 146.115.161.11 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 12 May 1998 21:51:07 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 really ancient computers came with their own desktop (i.e., there was often a handsome metal operators console with lots of big switches and stuff - the photos usually showed the console in the middle of the room with all the big cabs arranged around the outside, and loads of guys in suits (!) busy tending to the needs of the beast) dave -- For email, please remove the 'w' from my address. Sorry. Eric von Weasel wrote in article <6jacgf$k0e$1@big.aa.net>... > In article <3558793d.10591764@news.odyssey.on.ca>, > Pundit Gainsay wrote: > > >I suppose that anyone who is a naysayer could always change the date > >on their computer to some time in the next century and use it for a few > >weeks. > > Sure. And all the programs which use the system date for timestamping > records and storing transaction times will be completely screwed up. > > > >I'd suggest making a boot disk if you have a really ancient computer > >though. > > "really ancient computers" don't have boot disks. > > Are you aware that "really ancient computers" don't fit comfortably on > an average desktop? > > > >Microsoft has already publically identified some glitches they will > >provide patches for via their website for some minor glitches in Windows 3.1, > >Windows 95 and Microsoft Office. > > Last I heard: Microsoft thinks that it will have Win 3.1 Y2K > compliant, but probably won't be able to fix its other operating > systems in time. > > > >Most are minor but remember that some > >systems in the world's infastructure are ancient. If recent software has Y2K > >glitches when they were programming to avoid them how trustworthy is > >code written 20 years ago for say a nuclear reactor. You don't know until you > >look. > > Sadly, a large portion of US management is still unwilling to look. > > > -- > Quote of the Week: "I have been in peoples kill file since the day I was > born ... whether on the internet or in the physical world." Monica I., > seattle.general icon. > ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newshub.northeast.verio.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: Robert and Frances Egan Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.misc,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 22:08:16 -0400 Organization: Netcom Lines: 26 Message-ID: <35590090.AD@ix.netcom.com> References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <3552003c.15393013@newshost> <3556013B.1C07@ix.netcom.com> <894835619.770414@iris.nyx.net> <35574200.3057@rawrats.com> <3558ECDE.4C38E3B0@theGrid.net> Reply-To: nospam_allowed@ix.netcom.com NNTP-Posting-Host: bos-ma10-06.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 12 7:25:13 PM PDT 1998 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; U) The '00 expiry problem is well documented. The last estimate I saw (January '98) was that less than one tenth of one percent of the machines which process the cards are still non-compliant, and will think an '00 card expired 98 years ago. Almost all can be fixed with a relatively simple upgrade once the proprietor knows the reader is non-compliant. If you get stuck with a non-compliant reader, instruct the clerk to enter the number manually and use an expiry date of 12/99. This will almost always correct the situation. Hope this helps Robert Egan HELP-U/Gerald Craig wrote: > > You might not believe in Y2K, but even our local banks have had trouble. > This week, in our local paper, an article noted how ATM cards issued by > the bank, with expiration dates past 1999 were not able to access funds. > Of course, everything has an expiration date. What do you think is going > to happen when you try to use your Visa card that the computer says > expired in 1900??? -- To reply by email: nospam_allowed ==> egan263 ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!howland.erols.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!feed.centuryinter.net!not-for-mail From: moag@centuryinter.net Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.misc,misc.survivalism,alt.politics.usa.misc Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 22:52:31 -0700 Organization: CENTURYinter.net Lines: 18 Message-ID: <3559351B.DCD1A988@centuryinter.net> References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <894835619.770414@iris.nyx.net> <35574200.3057@rawrats.com> <3558793d.10591764@news.odyssey.on.ca> <6jacgf$k0e$1@big.aa.net> <3558C891.1ADA@aplcore.jhuapl.edu> Reply-To: cen42481@centuryinter.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp206.lr.centuryinter.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win16; U) To: hlm@aplcore.jhuapl.edu hlm wrote: > According to their year-2000 web site, Win 3.1, WFW 3.11, DOS 6.22, Win > 95, NT 3.51, NT Workstation 4.0, and NT Server 4.0 are all "compliant, > with minor issues". For details on the minor issues, see URL > > Interesting. I just download a file from their BBS that fixes a Y2K bug in windows 3.1, and the was other files to fix the same problem? in some of the other systems. Goat! ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!199.74.141.7!zinger.callamer.com!not-for-mail From: HELP-U/Gerald Craig Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 00:05:08 -0700 Organization: Call America Internet Services +1 (800) 563-3271 Lines: 61 Message-ID: <35594620.923855BF@theGrid.net> References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <3552003c.15393013@newshost> <3556013B.1C07@ix.netcom.com> <894835619.770414@iris.nyx.net> <35574200.3057@rawrats.com> <3558ECDE.4C38E3B0@theGrid.net> <35590090.AD@ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sc5-13-52.thegrid.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Just a few thoughts: Robert and Frances Egan wrote: > The '00 expiry problem is well documented. The last estimate I saw > (January '98) was that less than one tenth of one percent of the > machines which process the cards are still non-compliant, and will think > an '00 card expired 98 years ago. First of all, I am a *skeptic* when it comes to statistics. You could also say that less than one tenth of one percent of people posting to newsgroups are morons, but how do you arrive at that figure, and how do you prove or disprove it? Also, I am sure you are aware that this problem extends to more than just atm and credit cards. This is merely oversimplification. > Almost all can be fixed with a > relatively simple upgrade once the proprietor knows the reader is > non-compliant. There are programs, patches, available that will work, but we are talking small scale. It is also documented that the federal government is nowhere near ready. The local governments in our county are working on the problem, and hope to have it fixed by next year, but it is not guaranteed. Most 'fixes' involve rewriting code. Even if you get the majority of computers up to par, all it takes is a couple well placed non-compliant units to cause trouble. > If you get stuck with a non-compliant reader, instruct the clerk to > enter the number manually and use an expiry date of 12/99. This will > almost always correct the situation. Have you actually checked with the credit card companies to see if the card will be rejected if the information submitted does not match the information they have? In other words, if they input the wrong expiration date, they may not verify your card. Merchant agreements require that the information be provided as shown on the card (at least that's what mine said). > Hope this helps > Robert Egan Thanks for the post, but I just don't want people to pass this off as a hoax or minimal problem. My philosophy is be ready for the worst, so you will be happy when it doesnt happen. If you are prepared for the possibilities, you can make the transition easier for yourself. Even if the impending doom is wrong, just the *perception* will have an astounding effect on the marketplace and stock markets. The hoarding, runs on the banks, cashing out assets, etc. This could be a self-fulfilling prophecy, if not a real danger. > HELP-U/Gerald Craig wrote: > > > > You might not believe in Y2K, but even our local banks have had trouble. > > This week, in our local paper, an article noted how ATM cards issued by > > the bank, with expiration dates past 1999 were not able to access funds. > > Of course, everything has an expiration date. What do you think is going > > to happen when you try to use your Visa card that the computer says > > expired in 1900??? > > -- > To reply by email: nospam_allowed ==> egan263 ###### From: Robert and Frances Egan Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 07:09:21 -0400 Organization: Netcom Lines: 78 Message-ID: <35597F61.1049@ix.netcom.com> References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <3552003c.15393013@newshost> <3556013B.1C07@ix.netcom.com> <894835619.770414@iris.nyx.net> <35574200.3057@rawrats.com> <3558ECDE.4C38E3B0@theGrid.net> <35590090.AD@ix.netcom.com> <35594620.923855BF@theGrid.net> Reply-To: nospam_allowed@ix.netcom.com NNTP-Posting-Host: bos-ma5-17.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Wed May 13 6:09:22 AM CDT 1998 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; U) Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!ubnnews.unisource.ch!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter.cosy.sbg.ac.at!wuff.mayn.de!news.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De!fu-berlin.de!nntp.abs.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!ix.netcom.com!news HELP-U/Gerald Craig wrote: > > First of all, I am a *skeptic* when it comes to statistics. > How do you arrive at that figure, and how do you prove or > disprove it? I read that figure in one of the many news stories available at http://www.year200.com/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1998-01/02/103l-010298-idx.html http://www.naplesnews.com/today/business/d163615a.htm Of course, these stories give the figure 99%. This doesn't surprise me, because with so much information about Y2K it's difficult to keep all the numbers straight, especially numbers four months old. > Also, I am sure you are aware that this problem extends to > more than just atm and credit cards. I am very aware of all the ramifications, as you would know if you have spent any time in these groups or over at news:comp.software.year-2000. But this sub-thread isn't about any of those problems. It's about credit/debit cards with an '00 expiry date. A specific issue was raised, which I addressed with a specific answer. > There are programs, patches, available that will work, but we are talking > small scale. It is also documented that the federal government is nowhere near > ready. The local governments in our county are working on the problem, and > hope to have it fixed by next year, but it is not guaranteed. Most 'fixes' > involve rewriting code. Even if you get the majority of computers up to par, > all it takes is a couple well placed non-compliant units to cause trouble. Again. I am more than aware of all this, but it was not the topic under discussion. > > > If you get stuck with a non-compliant reader, instruct the clerk to > > enter the number manually and use an expiry date of 12/99. This will > > almost always correct the situation. > > Have you actually checked with the credit card companies to see if the card > will be rejected if the information submitted does not match the information > they have? In other words, if they input the wrong expiration date, they may > not verify your card. Merchant agreements require that the information be > provided as shown on the card (at least that's what mine said). > This was also in the first article posted above. It's not something _I_ would have recommended either, but then I'm not in that industry. So I must merely report what I've read. > > Thanks for the post, but I just don't want people to pass this off as a hoax > or minimal problem. My philosophy is be ready for the worst, so you will be > happy when it doesnt happen. If you are prepared for the possibilities, you > can make the transition easier for yourself. Even if the impending doom is > wrong, just the *perception* will have an astounding effect on the marketplace > and stock markets. The hoarding, runs on the banks, cashing out assets, etc. > This could be a self-fulfilling prophecy, if not a real danger. > Yes, I am preparing, and have been for many months. I am currently in a position to survive several weeks without basic services, and every day I extend that time frame. I also recommend these preparations to everyone I meet, although most people just ignore them. Cheers Robert Egan -- To reply by email: nospam_allowed ==> egan263 "Someone sent me a picture postcard of the Earth. On the back it said 'Wish you were here'" -Steven Wright "My reality check bounced..." - Kyla ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!stns.news.pipex.net!hose.news.pipex.net!grot.news.pipex.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.erols.net!news1.ispnews.com!news11.ispnews.com!not-for-mail From: dmc@dmc.com (dmc) Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:21:52 GMT Organization: dmc Lines: 15 Sender: nai1@206.113.164.42 Message-ID: <3559c888.761284649@news1.brigadoon.com> References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <3552003c.15393013@newshost> <3556013B.1C07@ix.netcom.com> <894835619.770414@iris.nyx.net> <35574200.3057@rawrats.com> <3558ECDE.4C38E3B0@theGrid.net> <35590090.AD@ix.netcom.com> <35594620.923855BF@theGrid.net> <35597F61.1049@ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.113.164.42 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 BTW, I hope everyone in the US has been informed of the IRS and how they've spent taxpayer money on this issue, right? Five years ago, the IRS started its y2K conversion program. About a year and a half ago, after spending $4,000,000,000 -- yes, four BILLION dollars on it, they announced that the project was a failure and would be starting over. Four billion dollars. Wasted by yours and my favorite organization. How exactly do you spend $4,000,000,000 before you realize you screwed up? Daryl dmc ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!island.idirect.com!news.uunet.ca!atbowler From: atbowler@thinkage.on.ca (Alan Bowler) Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.misc,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: 13 May 1998 17:18:08 GMT Organization: Thinkage Ltd. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <6jckkh$p6d$1@nntp1.uunet.ca> References: <35574200.3057@rawrats.com> <3558ECDE.4C38E3B0@theGrid.net> <3558FAE4.562B@swbell.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.102.11.4 In article <3558FAE4.562B@swbell.net> "Barbara A. Meissner" writes: >HELP-U/Gerald Craig wrote: >> >> You might not believe in Y2K, but even our local banks have had trouble. >> This week, in our local paper, an article noted how ATM cards issued by >> the bank, with expiration dates past 1999 were not able to access funds. >> Of course, everything has an expiration date. What do you think is going >> to happen when you try to use your Visa card that the computer says >> expired in 1900??? >Funny, my ATM card has an 00 expiration date, and I never have any >trouble with it. Some merchants have (had) not updated their software and there have been cases of rejected year 2000 expiry dated cards. The problem is with the merchant, not the bank, but that doesn't help you if the store is treating their clerks like machines. (I.e. "do what the rule book or the machine says, don't think for yourself"). As a precaution my bank issued Visa cards early (ahead of the usual expiry cycle), so that I have a 99 expiry dated card. They are assuming the stores will have their software and procedures fixed some time this year. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!202.14.100.1!status.gen.nz!kcbbs!riplin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT From: riplin@kcbbs.gen.nz (Richard Plinston) Date: 13 May 98 19:53:50 GMT Message-ID: <3298132.71630.21757@kcbbs.gen.nz> References: <6jacgf$k0e$1@big.aa.net> Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand Lines: 31 In message <<6jacgf$k0e$1@big.aa.net>> bergamot@big.aa.net writes: > > >Microsoft has already publically identified some glitches they will > >provide patches for via their website for some minor glitches in Windows 3.1, > >Windows 95 and Microsoft Office. > > Last I heard: Microsoft thinks that it will have Win 3.1 Y2K > compliant, but probably won't be able to fix its other operating > systems in time. Microsoft seems to have no real interest in having Win95, 98, or Office97 Y2K compliant. By leaving these glitches in they can bring out new Win2000 and Office2000 products that do fix the problems and then <> will have to buy these. This is called maximising revenue, the biggest threat to MS's market is users keeping old software working, they have nearly eliminated people being able to spend money on other software houses, now they need to concentrate on users leaving money in their wallets while using obsolete software (ie to prevent this happening). Win2000 and Office2000 due for release on the 5th anniversary of the gretest event in world history, the release of Win95. Delay of this product by the government agencies will bring total collapse of the world order and return of the black death. Delay of this by Microsoft will be for the benefit of all humanity. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!europa.clark.net!206.229.87.25!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!199.125.85.9!news.mv.net!newspump.wustl.edu!unlnews.unl.edu!cse.unl.edu!gberigan From: Greg Berigan Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.misc Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse Date: 13 May 1998 21:30:27 GMT Organization: http://cse.unl.edu/~gberigan/ Lines: 17 Message-ID: <6jd3dj$5n8$2@unlnews.unl.edu> References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <3552003c.15393013@newshost> <3556013B.1C07@ix.netcom.com> <894835619.770414@iris.nyx.net> <35574200.3057@rawrats.com> <3558ECDE.4C38E3B0@theGrid.net> <3558FAE4.562B@swbell.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cse.unl.edu User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980226 (UNIX) (IRIX64/6.2 (IP25)) In alt.folklore.computers, bmeiss@swbell.net (Barbara A. Meissner) wrote: > Funny, my ATM card has an 00 expiration date, and I never have any > trouble with it. The fact that your ATM still prints it as 00 is troublesome to me. If they still can't be bothered to press the 20 before the 00, that doesn't give me much confidence in their system. The sad thing is that everyone will quickly forget about the problems in under a year and return to 2 digit years for all new systems. -- ,=<#)-=# (The War of the Worlds) ,_--//--_, _-~_-(####)-_~-_ "Did you see that Parkins boy's body in the tunnels?" "Just (#>_--'~--~`--_<#) the photos. Worst thing I've ever seen; kid had no face." ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!paperboy.telerama.com!lordkaNO.SPAM From: lordkaNO.SPAM@telerama.com (Lord Kano) Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.misc,misc.survivalism,alt.politics.usa.misc Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 22:24:52 -0400 Organization: Overmind Knowledge Society Lines: 47 Message-ID: References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <894835619.770414@iris.nyx.net> <35574200.3057@rawrats.com> <3558793d.10591764@news.odyssey.on.ca> <6jacgf$k0e$1@big.aa.net> <01bd7df0$00d67680$0ba17392@glastonbury> NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.171.44.210 X-Trace: 895112538 BPIPSDRGT2CD2CCABC usenet85.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.3.6b1 In article <01bd7df0$00d67680$0ba17392@glastonbury>, "dave porter" wrote: >really ancient computers came with their own desktop We all know what he was speaking of, if you want to get into semantics "really ancient computers" have probably blown all of their vacuum tubes by now. And you'd need a couple of redwoods to make a desk to support one. LK -- http://www.telerama.com/~lordkano WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING The following Signature contains profanity and sexual inuendos. If such things offend you, read no further. Scarface only version. Last updated 02/21/1998 "You can cry, but you'll still die. There'll be no tears in the end." -No Tears: Scarface(Brad Jordan) "Boys used to die when I'l full of that fry. I'll be ampin' when I'm high so I say 'fuck' and just let bullets fly." Ming of a Lunatc:Scarface(Brad Jordan) "Black radio is beind disowned. Not by the other race. But it's own. A lot of bullshit records make hits. Because of who you know, cash flow, and politics." Do it like a G.O.:Scarface(brad Jordan) "I think it's time I paid a little visit, to my run down neighborhood cematary, to tally up the people I've buried." Another Nigger in the Morgue: Scarface(Brad Jordan) "I'm rolling through your [neighbor]'hood and now my heart is filled with anger, you're at your sister's house and now your sister's life is in danger." -No Tears: Scarface(Brad Jordan) "I sit alone in my four cornered room, staring at candles, dreaming of the people I've dismantled." -Mind of a Lunatic: Scarface(Brad Jordan) "I can fall asleep lying next to a dead man" -Another Nigger in the Morgue: Scarface(Brad Jordan) "Once I pull this motherfucker back, I'm [going to] leave the front part of your face down in your fucking lap!" -Face Mob: Scarface(Brad Jordan) "So off with your head bitch, [be] 'cause I don't fuck arourd with that return from the dead shit, I'm making sure I get you good, and if you're twitching like you're still alive, homie loc I wish you would, [be] 'cause that just gives me one more reason to grab the trigger of this motherfucking pistol and continue squeezing." -He's Dead: Scarface(Brad Jordan) ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!btnet-peer!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!sidaway.demon.co.uk!Sherilyn From: Sherilyn Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse Followup-To: comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 00:51:18 +0100 Organization: None Message-ID: References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <3552003c.15393013@newshost> <3556013B.1C07@ix.netcom.com> <894835619.770414@iris.nyx.net> <35574200.3057@rawrats.com> <3558ECDE.4C38E3B0@theGrid.net> <3558FAE4.562B@swbell.net> <6jd3dj$5n8$2@unlnews.unl.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: sidaway.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: sidaway.demon.co.uk:158.152.43.216 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 895103822 nnrp-01:24998 NO-IDENT sidaway.demon.co.uk:158.152.43.216 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike (32) Version 3.05 Lines: 26 [various irrelevant-looking/non-existent, etc, newsgroups snipped ad- lib. Follow-ups set to computer groups.] In article <6jd3dj$5n8$2@unlnews.unl.edu>, Greg Berigan writes >In alt.folklore.computers, bmeiss@swbell.net (Barbara A. Meissner) wrote: > >> Funny, my ATM card has an 00 expiration date, and I never have any >> trouble with it. > >The fact that your ATM still prints it as 00 is troublesome to me. If >they still can't be bothered to press the 20 before the 00, that doesn't >give me much confidence in their system. Is there some kind of problem with representing the century year with the last two digits as opposed to all four? It certainly makes more sense than redesigning all those record formats to use four digits. > >The sad thing is that everyone will quickly forget about the problems in >under a year and return to 2 digit years for all new systems. > And why not? For retail transactions, the two digit notation is not the problem. -- Sherilyn|Had a premonition lately? Get it registered! Get it noticed! misc.predictions.registry http://www.manx2.demon.co.uk/news/faq.htm ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!europa.clark.net!205.197.251.110!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!digex!newsgate.swbell.net!151.164.30.35.MISMATCH!cyclone.swbell.net!swbell!not-for-mail From: inigo@montoya.net (D. P. Roberts) Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.misc,misc.survivalism,alt.politics.usa.misc Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 14:29:58 GMT Organization: The Rhyming Swordsmen Lines: 40 Message-ID: <355ef963.4958199@news.swbell.net> References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <3552003c.15393013@newshost> <3556013B.1C07@ix.netcom.com> <894835619.770414@iris.nyx.net> <35574200.3057@rawrats.com> <3558793d.10591764@news.odyssey.on.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-207-193-0-91.kscymo.swbell.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: nnrp3 895156310 22774 (None) 207.193.0.91 X-Complaints-To: usenet@nnrp3 X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 >I suppose that anyone who is a naysayer could always change the date >on their computer to some time in the next century and use it for a few >weeks. I'd suggest making a boot disk if you have a really ancient computer >though. Microsoft has already publically identified some glitches they will >provide patches for via their website for some minor glitches in Windows 3.1, Not only is the Y2K problem coming up, but it's one of the more minor things. There will be some indication of Y2K on September 9 of next year. I remember that for test purposes in our classes, we used to put "9/9/99" as the date. I can't say for sure, but I would imagine that format got carried over into at least a few systems. After all, who knew in 1978 (or earlier) that those ancient COBOL programs would still be in use at the turn of the century! The other night on CBS news there was an excellent picture of a "tornado" on the surface of the sun. That flare was leaping way out there. Coincidentally, the solar flare activity is expected to peak starting sometime in the next year to two years. Right around the time Y2K is happening. Solar flares play havoc with communications, and the upcoming activity may even be strong enough to disrupt the power grid. Oh, but it gets better. We'll also be hitting a predicted stronger-than-usual Leonid meteor activity. I've heard that some people fear that at least a few satellites could be taken out if hit by anything. It has happened before. Put it all together -- computers crashing, possible wide-spread electrical outage and loss of satellites for communication/defense/weather. It could be pretty nasty. I would recommend at the minumum a 60-90 day supply of food. Loss of electricity means loss of refrigeration. If there's no electricity, there's no way to pump fuel, so deliveries to stores would be sporadic. There would be a panicked rush on stores. At that point it would be too late to stock up. Some people claim there would be a limit of a three-day supply of food, but I'd think you'd be lucky to get that much. Okay, so what if all that doesn't happen and you have your 60-90 day supply of food? There are still severe winters, tornadoes, earthquakes and hurricanes. You can always use the food normally, rotating out the older stock for regular usage and keeping your supplies up. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!151.164.30.38!newsgate.swbell.net!151.164.30.35.MISMATCH!cyclone.swbell.net!swbell!not-for-mail From: inigo@montoya.net (D. P. Roberts) Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.misc,misc.survivalism,alt.politics.usa.misc Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 17:33:11 GMT Organization: The Rhyming Swordsmen Lines: 18 Message-ID: <356b2a14.17425801@news.swbell.net> References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <894835619.770414@iris.nyx.net> <35574200.3057@rawrats.com> <3558793d.10591764@news.odyssey.on.ca> <6jacgf$k0e$1@big.aa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-207-193-0-91.kscymo.swbell.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: nnrp1 895167302 26784 (None) 207.193.0.91 X-Complaints-To: usenet@nnrp1 X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 >>Most are minor but remember that some >>systems in the world's infastructure are ancient. If recent software has Y2K >>glitches when they were programming to avoid them how trustworthy is >>code written 20 years ago for say a nuclear reactor. You don't know until you >>look. > >Sadly, a large portion of US management is still unwilling to look. I work for a very large nationwide service provider that is seasonal in nature during the early part of the year. I asked my boss about Y2K and was told that the media is making too much of a big deal over it. So apparently the company isn't too concerned about it. However, from what I understand, the government agency that is related to our service won't be Y2K compliant until about 2012, so if their computers go down, then our business will drop greatly as well. Oh, we can provide the service manually, but it will mean a lot less business, hiring more workers to do the work, and much lower productivity. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!news-lond.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!151.164.30.38!newsgate.swbell.net!151.164.30.35.MISMATCH!cyclone.swbell.net!swbell!not-for-mail From: inigo@montoya.net (D. P. Roberts) Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.misc,misc.survivalism,alt.politics.usa.misc Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 17:57:00 GMT Organization: The Rhyming Swordsmen Message-ID: <356c2ade.17627402@news.swbell.net> References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <894835619.770414@iris.nyx.net> <35574200.3057@rawrats.com> <3558793d.10591764@news.odyssey.on.ca> <6jacgf$k0e$1@big.aa.net> <01bd7df0$00d67680$0ba17392@glastonbury> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-207-193-0-91.kscymo.swbell.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: (null) 895168731 27686 (None) 207.193.0.91 X-Complaints-To: usenet@nnrp1 X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Lines: 8 >We all know what he was speaking of, if you want to get into semantics >"really ancient computers" have probably blown all of their vacuum tubes >by now. And you'd need a couple of redwoods to make a desk to support >one. Yes. . .but the really ancient COBOL programs are still around. What language did those wire grids with the iron beads use? ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!Cabal.CESspool!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed.eris.dera.gov.uk!dera!taz.dra.hmg.gb!WAGRAY From: wagray@taz.dra.hmg.gb (Walter Gray) Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.misc,misc.survivalism,alt.politics.usa.misc Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: 14 May 1998 18:16:51 GMT Organization: Defence Research Agency Lines: 16 Message-ID: <6jfcej$spf$2@trog.dra.hmg.gb> References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <3552003c.15393013@newshost> <3556013B.1C07@ix.netcom.com> <894835619.770414@iris.nyx.net> <35574200.3057@rawrats.com> <3558793d.10591764@news.odyssey.on.ca> <355ef963.4958199@news.swbell.net> Reply-To: wagray@taz.dra.hmg.gb NNTP-Posting-Host: taz.dra.hmg.gb In article <355ef963.4958199@news.swbell.net>, inigo@montoya.net (D. P. Roberts) writes: [] : :Put it all together -- computers crashing, possible wide-spread electrical :outage and loss of satellites for communication/defense/weather. It could be :pretty nasty. So this is it? We're all gonna die? Walter Disclaimer: My employer is not responsible for this stuff. Please reply to: wagray@dra.hmg.gb as the address given above sometimes doesn't work. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.misc,misc.survivalism,alt.politics.usa.misc Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: Thu, 14 May 98 23:16:32 GMT Message-ID: <895187792snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <356c2ade.17627402@news.swbell.net> Reply-To: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 895219901 mail2news:9165 mail2news mail2news.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mail2News-Path: news.demon.net!post-10.mail.demon.net!post.mail.demon.net!tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.29 Lines: 11 > What language did those wire grids with the iron beads use? Japanese. :=*) -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-dc.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!141.211.144.13!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!ultraneo.neosoft.com!junkie.gnofn.org!sparkie.gnofn.org!not-for-mail From: Roger P Williams Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.misc,misc.survivalism,alt.politics.usa.misc Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: 14 May 1998 23:25:39 GMT Organization: Greater New Orleans Free-Net Lines: 26 Message-ID: <6jfuhj$90f@junkie.gnofn.org> References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <3552003c.15393013@newshost> <3556013B.1C07@ix.netcom.com> <894835619.770414@iris.nyx.net> <35574200.3057@rawrats.com> <3558793d.10591764@news.odyssey.on.ca> <6jacgf$k0e$1@big.aa.net> <01bd7df0$00d67680$0ba17392@glastonbury> <356c2ade.17627402@news.swbell.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: sparkie.gnofn.org X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961115] In misc.survivalism D. P. Roberts wrote: > >We all know what he was speaking of, if you want to get into semantics > >"really ancient computers" have probably blown all of their vacuum tubes > >by now. And you'd need a couple of redwoods to make a desk to support > >one. > Yes. . .but the really ancient COBOL programs are still around. > What language did those wire grids with the iron beads use? Oh, the wire grids and beads (core memory) used mostly FORTRAN and COBOL, depending on whether it was science/education or business/government. The REAL ancient computers with vacuum tubes used mercury delay lines or retrieval CRT's for storage, and with that whole 512 or 1K words of volatile memory, they were programmed directly in binary machine language. Many of them had toggle switch banks for setting the values of the bits to be programmed. --Roger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ What will people of the future think of us? Will they say, as Roger Williams said of some of the Massachusetts Indians, that we were wolves with the minds of men? That we resigned our humanity? They will have the right. -- C.P. Snow ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!203.97.37.6!clear.net.nz!auckland.ac.nz!p.kerr From: p.kerr@auckland.ac.nz (Peter Kerr) Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.misc,misc.survivalism,alt.politics.usa.misc Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: 15 May 1998 04:01:05 GMT Organization: School of Music University of Auckland Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <894835619.770414@iris.nyx.net> <35574200.3057@rawrats.com> <3558793d.10591764@news.odyssey.on.ca> <6jacgf$k0e$1@big.aa.net> <01bd7df0$00d67680$0ba17392@glastonbury> <356c2ade.17627402@news.swbell.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p.kerr.mus.auckland.ac.nz X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b6 inigo@montoya.net (D. P. Roberts) wrote: > > What language did those wire grids with the iron beads use? CJK. You did mean an abacus? -- Peter Kerr bodger School of Music chandler University of Auckland NZ neo-Luddite ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uow.edu.au!metro!unsw.edu.au!khchung From: khchung@maths.unsw.EDU.AU (Kin Hoong CHUNG) Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.misc,misc.survivalism,alt.politics.usa.misc Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Followup-To: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.misc,misc.survivalism,alt.politics.usa.misc Date: 15 May 1998 07:32:56 GMT Organization: University of New South Wales Lines: 16 Message-ID: <6jgr38$emo$1@mirv.unsw.edu.au> References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <3552003c.15393013@newshost> <3556013B.1C07@ix.netcom.com> <894835619.770414@iris.nyx.net> <35574200.3057@rawrats.com> <3558793d.10591764@news.odyssey.on.ca> <355ef963.4958199@news.swbell.net> <6jfcej$spf$2@trog.dra.hmg.gb> NNTP-Posting-Host: alpha.maths.unsw.edu.au X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Walter Gray (wagray@taz.dra.hmg.gb) wrote: : In article <355ef963.4958199@news.swbell.net>, inigo@montoya.net (D. P. Roberts) writes: : [] : : :Put it all together -- computers crashing, possible wide-spread electrical : :outage and loss of satellites for communication/defense/weather. It could be : :pretty nasty. : So this is it? We're all gonna die? Nah... just make sure you take a nice long (3 month?) holiday over the Christmas period of December 1999 and let somebody else get the ulcers :-):-):-) Cheers, Kin Hoong ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: Robert and Frances Egan Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.misc,misc.survivalism,alt.politics.usa.misc Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 07:51:52 -0400 Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 18 Message-ID: <355C2C58.64D1@ix.netcom.com> References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <3552003c.15393013@newshost> <3556013B.1C07@ix.netcom.com> <894835619.770414@iris.nyx.net> <35574200.3057@rawrats.com> <3558793d.10591764@news.odyssey.on.ca> <355ef963.4958199@news.swbell.net> <6jfcej$spf$2@trog.dra.hmg.gb> <6jgr38$emo$1@mirv.unsw.edu.au> Reply-To: nospam_allowed@ix.netcom.com NNTP-Posting-Host: bos-ma6-10.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 15 7:07:23 AM CDT 1998 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; U) It wouldn't hurt to bring your own food and water on this vacation. And make sure it doesn't have to be refregirated, just in case. Cheers Robert Egan Kin Hoong CHUNG wrote: > > Walter Gray (wagray@taz.dra.hmg.gb) wrote: > > : So this is it? We're all gonna die? > > Nah... just make sure you take a nice long (3 month?) holiday over the > Christmas period of December 1999 and let somebody else get the ulcers :-):-):-) > -- To reply by email: nospam_allowed ==> egan263 ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter0!news.primenet.com!phil From: phil@imbe.foo.com (Phil) Newsgroups: seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,alt.religion.kibology Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: 15 May 1998 19:32:00 -0700 Organization: com.foo.imbe Lines: 4 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: bill@ms.com X-Posted-By: @207.218.35.238 (imbe) X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) What's up in 2048 anyway? Am I the only one who's not prepared? OOOPS! I deleted my geek code block! Phil ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!btnet-peer!btnet-feed1!btnet!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millenni Date: 15 May 1998 19:33:50 GMT Lines: 12 Message-ID: <6ji5au$jr9$3@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <355C2C58.64D1@ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-011.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X On 1998-05-15 nospam_allowed@ix.netcom.com said: :It wouldn't hurt to bring your own food and water on this vacation. :And make sure it doesn't have to be refregirated, just in case. alternatively, go holidaying in sweden over this period, where nature will take care of the refrigeration for you - but then you need some very warm clothing, enough to last a quarter without being washed. -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp.giganews.com!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!193.10.88.101!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!news99.sunet.se!news.datakom.su.se!not-for-mail From: d88-bli@bitbucket.nada.kth.se (Bo Lindbergh) Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.astrology,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millenni Date: 15 May 1998 23:25:52 GMT Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden Lines: 17 Distribution: world Message-ID: <6jiiu0$j9c$1@news.datakom.su.se> References: <355C2C58.64D1@ix.netcom.com> <6ji5au$jr9$3@irk.zetnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: dront.nada.kth.se X-From: remove first component of hostname before replying (What a nutty set of newsgroups....) In article <6ji5au$jr9$3@irk.zetnet.co.uk> lisard@zetnet.co.uk writes: > > On 1998-05-15 nospam_allowed@ix.netcom.com said: > :It wouldn't hurt to bring your own food and water on this vacation. > :And make sure it doesn't have to be refregirated, just in case. > > alternatively, go holidaying in sweden over this period, where nature > will take care of the refrigeration for you - but then you need some > very warm clothing, enough to last a quarter without being washed. Not really. Just choose a part of Sweden with enough trees for firewood and you'll have no problems staying both warm and clean. :-) /Bo Lindbergh (see X-From header field) ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.idt.net!feed.nntp.acc.ca!island.idirect.com!news.uunet.ca!inasec From: triso@remove-me.inasec.ca (Tris Orendorff) Newsgroups: seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 23:38:59 GMT Organization: UUNET Canada News Transport Lines: 29 Message-ID: <6jijn0$ju8$2@goblin.uunet.ca> References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <3552003c.15393013@newshost> <3556013B.1C07@ix.netcom.com> <894835619.770414@iris.nyx.net> <35574200.3057@rawrats.com> <3558ECDE.4C38E3B0@theGrid.net> <35590090.AD@ix.netcom.com> <35594620.923855BF@theGrid.net> <35597F61.1049@ix.netcom.com> <3559c888.761284649@news1.brigadoon.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.176.144.102 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 In article <3559c888.761284649@news1.brigadoon.com>, dmc@dmc.com (dmc) wrote: > > BTW, I hope everyone in the US has been informed of the IRS and how > they've spent taxpayer money on this issue, right? > > Five years ago, the IRS started its y2K conversion program. About a > year and a half ago, after spending $4,000,000,000 -- yes, four > BILLION dollars on it, they announced that the project was a failure > and would be starting over. > > Four billion dollars. Wasted by yours and my favorite organization. > > How exactly do you spend $4,000,000,000 before you realize you screwed > up? I suspect they tried to replace ALL their systems wih modern hardware and software rather than reworking what they already had. Sincerely, Tris Orendorff -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.12 GCS d++ s a C+ UC++++ P+ L E- W+ N++ o- K++ w+ O+ M !V PS+ PE Y+ PGP t+ !5 X- R- tv--- b++ DI++ D+ G+ e+ h---- r+++ y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news.vt.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: epawtows@cray-ymp.acm.vt.edu (Eric Pawtowski) Newsgroups: seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: 16 May 1998 21:12:40 -0400 Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 21 Message-ID: <6jldi8$ka7$1@cray-ymp.acm.vt.edu> References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <35597F61.1049@ix.netcom.com> <3559c888.761284649@news1.brigadoon.com> <6jijn0$ju8$2@goblin.uunet.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: cray-ymp.acm.vt.edu In article <6jijn0$ju8$2@goblin.uunet.ca>, Tris Orendorff wrote: >> >> How exactly do you spend $4,000,000,000 before you realize you screwed >> up? > > From what I heard, it was largely a case of creaping featureisim- that is, after they spent the first billion, they could only justify it by claiming that it could do a billion and a half worth of stuff, which reqired spending the half, but then you have ot claim two billion worth of benefit, etc., etc., etc. Plus the usual management errors you get when such a large project is managed by people who have vested interests in making it last as long as possible and have no particular reason to care if it works in the end because they know they'd have moved on to a different job. Eric -- epawtows@vt.edu---------------------------------------------------- ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!141.211.144.13!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!jobone!dailyplanet.srl.ford.com!eccws1.dearborn.ford.com!longhorn!tph From: tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) Newsgroups: seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,alt.religion.kibology Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Followup-To: seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,alt.religion.kibology Date: 18 May 1998 17:02:24 GMT Organization: Mechanist Industries Lines: 11 Message-ID: <6jppj0$pvg3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> References: Reply-To: tph@rmi.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cs0053.eld.ford.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Phil (phil@imbe.foo.com) wrote: : What's up in 2048 anyway? Am I the only one who's not prepared? I think you mean 2038. That's when time_t rolls over to 0 on many Unix systems. -- Tom Harrington --------- tph@rmii.com -------- http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph "Imagine 100,000 articles a week on every topic under the sun in no particular order!" -Bob Allisat on his vision for the ideal Usenet Cookie's Revenge: ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/tph/cookie/cookies-revenge.sit.hqx ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!blackbush.xlink.net!howland.erols.net!ais.net!news1.ispnews.com!news11.ispnews.com!not-for-mail From: dmc@dmc.com (dmc) Newsgroups: seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 17:38:13 GMT Organization: dmc Lines: 35 Sender: nai1@206.113.164.42 Message-ID: <356071c1.239668825@news1.brigadoon.com> References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <35597F61.1049@ix.netcom.com> <3559c888.761284649@news1.brigadoon.com> <6jijn0$ju8$2@goblin.uunet.ca> <6jldi8$ka7$1@cray-ymp.acm.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.113.164.42 X-Trace: news7.ispnews.com 895513146 28512 206.113.164.42 (18 May 1998 17:39:06 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 May 1998 17:39:06 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 On 16 May 1998 21:12:40 -0400, epawtows@cray-ymp.acm.vt.edu (Eric Pawtowski) wrote: >In article <6jijn0$ju8$2@goblin.uunet.ca>, >Tris Orendorff wrote: >>> >>> How exactly do you spend $4,000,000,000 before you realize you screwed >>> up? >> >> > From what I heard, it was largely a case of creaping featureisim- >that is, after they spent the first billion, they could only justify >it by claiming that it could do a billion and a half worth of stuff, >which reqired spending the half, but then you have ot claim two billion >worth of benefit, etc., etc., etc. Plus the usual management errors >you get when such a large project is managed by people who have vested >interests in making it last as long as possible and have no particular >reason to care if it works in the end because they know they'd have >moved on to a different job. That's a big part. In fact they went through several managers who would work on it for a while and then bail out knowing full well the project was a complete failure. One man finally had enough balls to stand up and say, "This project has failed. We need to try again." dmc *-- Daryl dmc dmc@brig-a-doon.com Remove the hyphens to reply ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!192.220.251.22!netnews.nwnet.net!news.microsoft.com!news From: "John Källén" Newsgroups: seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,alt.religion.kibology Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 19:30:17 -0700 Organization: Microsoft Corp. Lines: 30 Message-ID: <6jqre4$akq@news.microsoft.com> References: <6jppj0$pvg3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <7m3jcotr.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.30.160.219 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Neil Franklin wrote in message <7m3jcotr.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch>... >tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) wrote: >> Phil (phil@imbe.foo.com) wrote: >> : What's up in 2048 anyway? Am I the only one who's not prepared? >> >> I think you mean 2038. > >Up to here you were cruising OK, Tomtanic. > > >> That's when time_t rolls over to 0 on many Unix systems. > >Then the iceberg struck! > >In 2038 time_t will roll over from 2^31-1 to -2^31 on systems that: >define time_t as _signed_ int and have an int of _32_ bits. Unsigned >time_t or 64+ bit will go on without trouble. > >I wonder how many of such systems will be in production operation in >40 years time? More than the number of 1960's COBOL systems in operation causing the y2K scare today? -- John Källén -- johnkal at microsoft dot com My opinions, not my employers'. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-stock.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!ix.netcom.com!tor-nn1.netcom.ca!ntserv1!simon.law From: simon.law@ablelink.org (Simon Law) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Pr Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 21:32:00 GMT Organization: Ability Online Support Network Lines: 23 Message-ID: <895528476@ablelink.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ablelink.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 May 1998 18:05:35 EDT @SUBJECT:Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (waN To recap, TPH@LONGHORN.UUCP and ALL were talking about "Re: Y2K False Alarm or Pr" Hi tph@longhorn.uucp, TH>Phil (phil@imbe.foo.com) wrote: >: What's up in 2048 anyway? Am I the only one who's not prepared? TH>I think you mean 2038. That's when time_t rolls over to 0 on >many Unix systems. Hopefully the ISO standard will redefine time_t so that it uses a larger amount of bits! Yours Sincerely, Simon Law Internet: simon.law@ablelink.org FidoNet: Simon Law - 1:250/518 05-18-98 - 17:32 * 1st 2.00 ~ "I drank WHAT?!" -Socrates ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,alt.religion.kibology Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: 18 May 1998 22:21:36 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 25 Message-ID: <7m3jcotr.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch> References: <6jppj0$pvg3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) wrote: > Phil (phil@imbe.foo.com) wrote: > : What's up in 2048 anyway? Am I the only one who's not prepared? > > I think you mean 2038. Up to here you were cruising OK, Tomtanic. > That's when time_t rolls over to 0 on many Unix systems. Then the iceberg struck! In 2038 time_t will roll over from 2^31-1 to -2^31 on systems that: define time_t as _signed_ int and have an int of _32_ bits. Unsigned time_t or 64+ bit will go on without trouble. I wonder how many of such systems will be in production operation in 40 years time? -- private: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ office: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ WinCE car, crashing soon on a road near you ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!netnews.com!newsin.iconnet.net!stevens-tech.edu!not-for-mail From: "Jonathan Hurley" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: 19 May 1998 04:31:38 GMT Organization: Shadowland Lines: 35 Message-ID: <01bd82df$12456ea0$42dcf69b@shadowland.u96.stevens-tech.edu> References: <6jppj0$pvg3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <7m3jcotr.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: jhurley1.u96.stevens-tech.edu X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1162 Neil Franklin wrote in article <7m3jcotr.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch>... > tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) wrote: > > Phil (phil@imbe.foo.com) wrote: > > : What's up in 2048 anyway? Am I the only one who's not prepared? > > > > I think you mean 2038. > Up to here you were cruising OK, Tomtanic. > > That's when time_t rolls over to 0 on many Unix systems. > > Then the iceberg struck! > > In 2038 time_t will roll over from 2^31-1 to -2^31 on systems that: > define time_t as _signed_ int and have an int of _32_ bits. Unsigned > time_t or 64+ bit will go on without trouble. > > I wonder how many of such systems will be in production operation in > 40 years time? Especially since a recompile of POSIX-compliant source code after changing the lib time_t is in will fix the problem. Or did I misunderstand my Programming UNIX instructor? (It's not my fault if your code doesn't use time_t). -- Ian Silvercat claims the above in the name of himself! -------------- Those who would give up a little freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security -Benjamin Franklin Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly! Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@stevens-tech.edu) ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!uwm.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail From: jk@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 10:43:55 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 15 Message-ID: <6jrnpb$lj1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <6jppj0$pvg3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <7m3jcotr.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch> <01bd82df$12456ea0$42dcf69b@shadowland.u96.stevens-tech.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.129.107.143 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue May 19 10:43:55 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.0; Windows NT) In article <01bd82df$12456ea0$42dcf69b@shadowland.u96.stevens-tech.edu>, "Jonathan Hurley" wrote: > > Especially since a recompile of POSIX-compliant source code after changing > the lib time_t is in will fix the problem. Hmmm: what happens if you have lots of data files which contain timestamps which have been streamed in the "old" time_t format? -- James Kew -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!masternews.telia.net!newspost.telia.com!news.lejonet.se!not-for-mail From: Ingvar Mattsson Newsgroups: seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,alt.religion.kibology Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: 19 May 1998 11:34:54 +0200 Organization: Foreningen Lejonet, Linkoping, Sweden Lines: 41 Sender: ingvar@sunserv.idasys.se Message-ID: References: <6jppj0$pvg3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <7m3jcotr.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch> <6jqre4$akq@news.microsoft.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ns.idasys.se X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 "John Källén" writes: > > > Neil Franklin wrote in message <7m3jcotr.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch>... > >tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) wrote: > >> Phil (phil@imbe.foo.com) wrote: > >> : What's up in 2048 anyway? Am I the only one who's not prepared? > >> > >> I think you mean 2038. > > > >Up to here you were cruising OK, Tomtanic. > > > > > >> That's when time_t rolls over to 0 on many Unix systems. > > > >Then the iceberg struck! > > > >In 2038 time_t will roll over from 2^31-1 to -2^31 on systems that: > >define time_t as _signed_ int and have an int of _32_ bits. Unsigned > >time_t or 64+ bit will go on without trouble. > > > >I wonder how many of such systems will be in production operation in > >40 years time? > > > More than the number of 1960's COBOL systems in operation causing the y2K > scare today? My guess is that the biggest problem is data files with a signed 32-bit time_t stuck inside them. My guess is also that the biggest Y2k problem is that there are _lots_ and _lots_ of data with 2-digit years stuck inside them and that teh logic for deciding what is a date and what isn't isn't that easy to make. //Ingvar (now, there probably are more, but my guess is taht data conversion is the biggest resource hog) -- Sysadmin, disgruntled, unpolite. I don't speak for my employer nor do they speak for me. Accept this and life will be easier. ingvar@idasys.se ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.swip.net!masternews.telia.net!newspost.telia.com!news.lejonet.se!not-for-mail From: Ingvar Mattsson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Pr Date: 19 May 1998 11:49:05 +0200 Organization: Foreningen Lejonet, Linkoping, Sweden Lines: 26 Sender: ingvar@sunserv.idasys.se Message-ID: References: <895528476@ablelink.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ns.idasys.se X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 simon.law@ablelink.org (Simon Law) writes: > > @SUBJECT:Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (waN > To recap, TPH@LONGHORN.UUCP and ALL > were talking about "Re: Y2K False Alarm or Pr" > > Hi tph@longhorn.uucp, > > TH>Phil (phil@imbe.foo.com) wrote: > >: What's up in 2048 anyway? Am I the only one who's not prepared? > TH>I think you mean 2038. That's when time_t rolls over to 0 on > >many Unix systems. > > Hopefully the ISO standard will redefine time_t so that it uses a > larger amount of bits! What ISO standard? ANSI-C only guarantees that time_t is an arithmetic type. POSIX guarantees that it is an integer type, counting seconds since the beginning of 1970. //Ingvar (quite sure about the first, not so sure of the latter, though) -- Sysadmin, disgruntled, unpolite. I don't speak for my employer nor do they speak for me. Accept this and life will be easier. ingvar@idasys.se ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!stns.news.pipex.net!hose.news.pipex.net!grot.news.pipex.net!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!not-for-mail From: "Bobby D. Bryant" Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.misc,misc.survivalism,alt.politics.usa.misc Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 12:41:04 -0500 Organization: The University of Texas at Austin Lines: 12 Message-ID: <3561C42F.736F4C99@mail.utexas.edu> References: <354F04D2.794B@ptc.com> <3552003c.15393013@newshost> <3556013B.1C07@ix.netcom.com> <894835619.770414@iris.nyx.net> <35574200.3057@rawrats.com> <3558793d.10591764@news.odyssey.on.ca> <355ef963.4958199@news.swbell.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial-119-9.ots.utexas.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.32 i686) D. P. Roberts wrote: > Not only is the Y2K problem coming up, but it's one of the more minor things. > ... > I would recommend at the minumum a 60-90 day supply of food. And of course, we programmers should stock up on even more, because potential employers are going to *hate* us as a breed after the repair bill comes in. Bobby Bryant Austin, Texas ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!169.132.11.200!news.idt.net!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news.state.mn.us!news1.mr.net!news.mr.net!cdshub.cdc.com!not-for-mail From: Jim Esler Newsgroups: seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,alt.religion.kibology Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 13:36:11 -0500 Organization: udev.cdc.com Lines: 16 Message-ID: <3561D11B.2368@cdc.com> References: <6jppj0$pvg3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: heron.udev.cdc.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; U) Tom Harrington wrote: > > Phil (phil@imbe.foo.com) wrote: > : What's up in 2048 anyway? Am I the only one who's not prepared? > > I think you mean 2038. That's when time_t rolls over to 0 on > many Unix systems. 2048 is a power of two, and rollover problems could occur in any system that used eleven bits to store an integer year value. Such systems are probably very rare, but that only means that no one will look for such problems. At least people recognize the problems associated with 2000 and 2038. -- Jim Esler ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!blackbush.xlink.net!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!jobone!dailyplanet.srl.ford.com!eccws1.dearborn.ford.com!longhorn!tph From: tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) Newsgroups: seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,alt.religion.kibology Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Followup-To: seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,alt.religion.kibology Date: 19 May 1998 15:36:07 GMT Organization: Mechanist Industries Lines: 27 Message-ID: <6js8t7$95n3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> References: <6jppj0$pvg3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <7m3jcotr.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch> Reply-To: tph@rmi.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cs0053.eld.ford.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Neil Franklin (root@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch) wrote: : tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) wrote: : > I think you mean 2038. : Up to here you were cruising OK, Tomtanic. : > That's when time_t rolls over to 0 on many Unix systems. : Then the iceberg struck! : In 2038 time_t will roll over from 2^31-1 to -2^31 on systems that: : define time_t as _signed_ int and have an int of _32_ bits. Unsigned : time_t or 64+ bit will go on without trouble. D'oh! Of course, that's right. : I wonder how many of such systems will be in production operation in : 40 years time? That's what people thought 40 years ago, and now we have the y2k problems. -- Tom Harrington --------- tph@rmii.com -------- http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph "A little nonsense now and then, Is cherished by the wisest man." -Willy Wonka Cookie's Revenge: ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/tph/cookie/cookies-revenge.sit.hqx ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!surfnet.nl!ruu.nl!tijger.fys.ruu.nl!usenet From: Rik van Riel Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Pr Sender: usenet@fys.ruu.nl (News system Tijgertje) Message-ID: X-Sender: riel@mirkwood.dummy.home In-Reply-To: <895528476@ablelink.org> Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 16:25:31 GMT X-Nntp-Posting-Host: anx1p7.fys.ruu.nl Reply-To: Rik van Riel Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII References: <895528476@ablelink.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Organization: Linux memory management wishlist. Lines: 23 On Mon, 18 May 1998, Simon Law wrote: > Hi tph@longhorn.uucp, > TH>Phil (phil@imbe.foo.com) wrote: > >: What's up in 2048 anyway? Am I the only one who's not prepared? > TH>I think you mean 2038. That's when time_t rolls over to 0 on > >many Unix systems. > > Hopefully the ISO standard will redefine time_t so that it uses a > larger amount of bits! I wonder if time_t _is_ assigned a standard number of bits. The time_t type wasn't introduced just for fun, it's done to allow easy recompilation on machines which use another number of bits for the time_t type. Rik. +-------------------------------------------+--------------------------+ | Linux: - LinuxHQ MM-patches page | Scouting webmaster | | - kswapd ask-him & complain-to guy | Vries cubscout leader | | http://www.phys.uu.nl/~riel/ | | +-------------------------------------------+--------------------------+ ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.xcom.net!news.ultranet.com!not-for-mail From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: seattle.general,comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.usa,alt.religion.kibology Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:54:08 -0400 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 33 Message-ID: <356229B0.79D47979@stoneweb.com> References: <6jppj0$pvg3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <7m3jcotr.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch> <6jqre4$akq@news.microsoft.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: zephyr.ultranet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 20 May 1998 00:54:19 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) Ingvar Mattsson, in article nr. , wrote: > > My guess is that the biggest problem is data files with a signed > 32-bit time_t stuck inside them. A 32-bit unsigned time will work nicely in a 64 bit field if sign- extended. Even if not sign-extended gracefully, one can zero out the high-order 32 bits and the thing will still work. > My guess is also that the biggest Y2k problem is that there are > _lots_ and _lots_ of data with 2-digit years stuck inside them [...] Bingo. That, and the fact that there are a _lot_ of applications which are still running for which the source code has been lost. Without the source, unless one is willing to rewrite, _from_scratch_, said application one is lost. The standard gripe is that we've seen this coming more or less from the dawn of the "computer age" which spans maybe (anybody else want to have a go at the time?) 40 years. How soon will 2038 arrive? There really is no excuse for this "bug" (which it's most emphatically NOT!) other than short-sightedness. -- ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed1.news.luth.se!luth.se!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!199.232.56.18!news.ultranet.com!not-for-mail From: "dave porter" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Pr Date: 19 May 1998 21:26:17 GMT Organization: none of the above Lines: 50 Message-ID: <01bd836c$b3aa7000$0ba17392@glastonbury> References: <895528476@ablelink.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: 146.115.161.11 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 19 May 1998 21:26:17 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Not only is time_t not standardized as to the number of bits, but it's not standardized as to the meaning of any value. The base time is undefined. It's undefined as to whether there *is* a base time (i.e., it doesn't have to be a count of units-since-base, it could be a segmented binary representation with a given number of bits each for yy/mm/dd/hh/mm/ss/cc). The precision is undefined. It's not necessarily even an integer type. Etc. It's only Unix-conventional which says that time_t is an integral type counting seconds since 1970. All this is why there has to be a difftime() function in ANSI C. How many of you use it? :-) Oops, I lied about "any value" in my first sentence. (time_t)-1 is defined as an error return, so there can't be a valid time which looks like (time_t)-1. dave -- For email, please remove the 'w' from my address. Sorry. Rik van Riel wrote in article ... > On Mon, 18 May 1998, Simon Law wrote: > > Hi tph@longhorn.uucp, > > TH>Phil (phil@imbe.foo.com) wrote: > > >: What's up in 2048 anyway? Am I the only one who's not prepared? > > TH>I think you mean 2038. That's when time_t rolls over to 0 on > > >many Unix systems. > > > > Hopefully the ISO standard will redefine time_t so that it uses a > > larger amount of bits! > > I wonder if time_t _is_ assigned a standard number of bits. > > The time_t type wasn't introduced just for fun, it's done to > allow easy recompilation on machines which use another number > of bits for the time_t type. > > Rik. > +-------------------------------------------+--------------------------+ > | Linux: - LinuxHQ MM-patches page | Scouting webmaster | > | - kswapd ask-him & complain-to guy | Vries cubscout leader | > | http://www.phys.uu.nl/~riel/ | | > +-------------------------------------------+--------------------------+ > > ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!ubnnews.unisource.ch!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter.cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!EU.net!blackbush.xlink.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!howland.erols.net!surfnet.nl!ruu.nl!tijger.fys.ruu.nl!usenet From: Rik van Riel Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Sender: usenet@fys.ruu.nl (News system Tijgertje) Message-ID: X-Sender: riel@mirkwood.dummy.home In-Reply-To: <6jrnpb$lj1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 09:49:31 GMT X-Nntp-Posting-Host: anx1p4.fys.ruu.nl Reply-To: Rik van Riel Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII References: <6jppj0$pvg3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <7m3jcotr.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch> <01bd82df$12456ea0$42dcf69b@shadowland.u96.stevens-tech.edu> <6jrnpb$lj1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Organization: Linux memory management wishlist. Lines: 22 On Tue, 19 May 1998 jk@my-dejanews.com wrote: > In article <01bd82df$12456ea0$42dcf69b@shadowland.u96.stevens-tech.edu>, > "Jonathan Hurley" wrote: > > > > Especially since a recompile of POSIX-compliant source code after changing > > the lib time_t is in will fix the problem. > > Hmmm: what happens if you have lots of data files which contain timestamps > which have been streamed in the "old" time_t format? You convert them. Then all (recompiled) programs can use the new files without any rewriting. It'll cost you a few hours of downtime though... Rik. +-------------------------------------------+--------------------------+ | Linux: - LinuxHQ MM-patches page | Scouting webmaster | | - kswapd ask-him & complain-to guy | Vries cubscout leader | | http://www.phys.uu.nl/~riel/ | | +-------------------------------------------+--------------------------+ ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail From: jk@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Y2K False Alarm or Programmers LOOT the Public Purse (was: millennium Reading) Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 09:57:32 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 27 Message-ID: <6k0tqc$ihm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <6jppj0$pvg3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <7m3jcotr.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch> <01bd82df$12456ea0$42dcf69b@shadowland.u96.stevens-tech.edu> <6jrnpb$lj1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.129.107.143 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu May 21 09:57:32 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.0; Windows NT) In article , Rik van Riel wrote: > > On Tue, 19 May 1998 jk@my-dejanews.com wrote: > > In article <01bd82df$12456ea0$42dcf69b@shadowland.u96.stevens-tech.edu>, > > "Jonathan Hurley" wrote: > > > > > > Especially since a recompile of POSIX-compliant source code after > > > changing the lib time_t is in will fix the problem. > > > > Hmmm: what happens if you have lots of data files which contain timestamps > > which have been streamed in the "old" time_t format? > > You convert them. Then all (recompiled) programs can > use the new files without any rewriting. Yes, that was my point: there's more to it that a simple recompile. There are also versioning issues beyond this: you had better be sure that *all* your executables and *all* your data files get updated at the same time. Not always easy in a distributed enterprise: what happens if the Albanian branch doesn't get the fix and continues to send you old-format files...? -- James Kew -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading