Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-dc.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!205.254.224.3!news2.avtel.net!forrestDELETE-THIS! From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 14:28:59 -0700 Organization: "The Company" (Formerly Known As Obsidian) Lines: 108 Message-ID: References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: term4-16.vta.west.net X-Trace: daffy.sb.west.net 894317143 1131 205.254.241.112 (4 May 1998 21:25:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@daffy.sb.west.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 May 1998 21:25:43 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.3.5 In article , trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight) wrote: > In article <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca>, mennis@escape.ca (M > Ennis) wrote: > > > ] If the GUI was inevitable, why did Microsoft have to steal it from > > ] Apple? And why was M$ selling DOS for years after the Mac OS, AmigaDOS, > > ] and GEOS were all using GUIs? > > > > Or why did Apple steal it from Xerox-PARC :-P > > Apple paid. But since this was posted to alt.folklore.computers (along > with a zillion other groups, since trimmed from the header, I'm sure > you've already been told. If not, a.f.c. is the perfect place to learn > what actually happened. Is there a FAQ? If not, this should be topic > one. Here's what I know of the story, corrections welcome: Jef Raskin was the creative genious who came up with the idea. He wrote his thesis on it, called "The Quick Draw System". I can't remember what his involvement with PARC was, but suffice it to say he came up with the idea for both Apple and Xerox. But Apple and Xerox did two very different systems. Xerox had no overlapping windows, the mouse was used for graphical manipulation of text (drag-select, copy, paste) and for clicking icons, which instead of representing files as they do in most current GUIs (all of the ones I've seen , at least), they represented actions to execute, similar to how menus are used nowadays. Jef, when working at Apple, wanted to make the graphical computer of his dreams. Steve Jobs didn't like the idea. So Jef told him to go to Xerox PARC and look at their GUI system, to see how graphics could help in a computer. Steve and several Aple engineers went and payed a pricy fee for a quick hands-off tour of Xerox' system (either the Star or the Alto, I always get those two confused). Steve saw and liked the idea of graphics in a computer, so Apple started researching the best ways to implement it. Eventually they came up with a desktop on which icons of disks and a trash can rested, and when these icons were double-clicked (using a single button mouse, as studies showed multiple clicks with one button was better than the combination-clicking-of-many-buttons approach Xerox had used) they would open a window with more icons, representing files and directories. A bar across the top of the screen held menus, with various items in them representing actions. From this basic concept came two different approaches: the Macintosh and the Lisa (both code names originally). The Macintosh was Jef's baby, a simple graphical computing appliance that anybody could use, in one small box that sat on your desk. The Lisa was Steve's first baby, a super-powerfull machine with all the modern buzzwords (PMT, SMP, PM, VM), but the old 68000 processor didn't have an MMU, and so Apple had to use a separate MMU, and I think they also used various other coprocessors akin to the way the Amiga did it. This ended up with a very expensive, large box, as opposed to the nice, compact Mac. As we all now nowadays, nobody cares about quality when it comes to the almighty dollar, so they bought the cheaper Mac (Mouse-Activated Computer) over it's ultra-powered Lisa (Last Inane, Silly Acronym) counterpart. Meanwhile, several others were working on graphical systems as well. Back in these days, MS was friends with Apple, they were a big developer for the Apple II and many of their top-selling products today came out on the Mac originally, as they were graphical and couldn't be done well on DOS. MS' chief enemy was the guys who made VisiCALC, who's name escapes me (VisiSoft?). They were working on a project call VisiON, another GUI system (I have no details on this. Anyone?). So MS took Apple's prototype Mac they had (they were Mac developers, afterall) and hacked together a pseudo-clone of it on top of DOS, including very similar calls and such (so I'm told. I'm not a programmer). I also have a vague (sp?) memory of them buying out "VisiSoft", but that may be innacurate. The resulting product was called Program Manager or some such, and later evolved into Windows. Apple sued, and for a reason I don't recall, lost (although everyone - well, almost everyone - acknowledges that MS did steal the GUI idea from Apple). It took three full version number upgrades of Windows to finally be usable, during which time the Mac had evolved various features such as multitasking, a useable desktop, and thousands of apps. As a side note, MS was working with IBM to develop OS/2, an OS that would be graphical from the ground up ala the Mac and Lisa, but behind IBM's back MS made a full suite of apps for Windows, then pulled support for OS/2 and left IBM stranded. Windows now had it's own app suite, ran on the ever-pervasive IBM-PC machines and their clones (which IBM tried to circumvent, but that's another story) under a per-unit licence, and it ran the uncountable DOS programs as well, leading to the success of Windows and the relative failure of the Macintosh (and the near-absolute failure of OS/2). So it's a combination of luck, leaching off others, and general dirty tricks that lead to Windows being the dominant graphical OS, and eventually the dominant OS ever. You see, they used some of their code from OS/2 to develop Windows NT, a new OS with all the modern buzzwords now that the hardware could handle it. (Meanwhile Steve Jobs had left Apple and made another buzzword-compliant system with a great GUI, perfectly supplemental to that of the Mac). NT had the same interface as Windows. MS then began the development of Windows 4.0, which was to hack the buzzwords from NT on top of DOS with a hybrid Mac/Win/NeXT interface (which would also be grafted onto NT 4.0). Win4 eventually became Windows 93, 94, 95, and almost 96. All the time Apple had been developing Copland, a buzzword-compliant system (NuKernel) with an advanced interface. Copland failed (due to poor management and tackling backward compatibility from the wrong direction), Win95 came out, and now Apple is looked on as lagging behind, which admittedly they are but it's not because of laziness, it's management incompetance. Now, Apple bought back Steve's second baby, NeXT, and is making a cross-platform (Mac/Intel/MacOS/Win32/Unix), buzzword-compliant (Mach) system with an interface combining the best from Mac and NeXT without any of that MS inconsistant inelegant nonintuitive MDI shit. And MS is integrating a web browser. -Forrest Cameranesi Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember: "We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live." ###### From: "Scott Stevens" Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 18:01:39 -0500 Lines: 16 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: usr-401-1-137.isd.net Message-ID: <354e48b8.0@aedes.isd.net> Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-dc.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.he.net!Supernews60!supernews.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!aedes.isd.net!usr-401-1-137.isd.net Forrest Cameranesi wrote in message ... >Apple, wanted to make the graphical computer of his dreams. Steve Jobs >didn't like the idea. So Jef told him to go to Xerox PARC and look at >their GUI system, to see how graphics could help in a computer. Steve and >several Aple engineers went and payed a pricy fee for a quick hands-off >tour of Xerox' system It's my understanding that this "pricy fee" is the only payment Apple mad to Xerox for adopting the GUI. Can anybody corraborate this? I've heard more than once somebody claim that Apple "paid" to use the GUI. Is there a liscence agreement or contract showing said payment? ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!204.238.120.130!jump.net!jumpnet.com!tim From: tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 19:43:24 -0500 Organization: Jump Point Communications, Inc. Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: jump-k56flex-0144.jumpnet.com X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.1 | Jef Raskin was the creative genious who came up with the idea. He wrote | his thesis on it, called "The Quick Draw System". I can't remember what | his involvement with PARC was, but suffice it to say he came up with the | idea for both Apple and Xerox. He apparently conversed a lot with Dan Ingalls, who wrote the BitBlt for Smalltalk. | But Apple and Xerox did two very different | systems. Xerox had no overlapping windows... Actually, they *were* overlapping. However, the implementation didn't allow background updating of partially-obscured windows, which was implemented in QuickDraw as "regions". | the mouse was used for | graphical manipulation of text (drag-select, copy, paste) and for clicking | icons, which instead of representing files as they do in most current GUIs | (all of the ones I've seen , at least), they represented actions to | execute, similar to how menus are used nowadays. To compare how Xerox Smalltalk-80 looked with the Macintosh GUI, you can download a free version of "Squeak", a new Smalltalk based upon the original Smalltalk-80 distribution. Not only can you play with it to see for yourself what the original environment was like, but you also get a nice development enviroment with compiler, interpreter, debugger, decompiler, class browsers, object inspectors, a full class hierarchy of about 500 classes, a state-of-the-art generational garbage collector, a virtual-machine Smalltalk->C translator, sound synthesis, a web server, and *full source code* for the entire system. And all that fits in a 3 MB image. Compare that to today's bloatware! You can learn more about Squeak and download it for MacOS, Win95/WinNT, Linux, and most Unicies from: http://squeak.cs.uiuc.edu/ -- -- Tim Olson ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!news.mindspring.net!news.mindspring.com!atticus From: atticus@mindspring.com (Andy Walton) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 20:01:35 -0400 Organization: Waltonschauung Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: user-38lcj49.dialup.mindspring.com X-Server-Date: 5 May 1998 00:01:45 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 X-Face: nrf3>{WQ6c&r+7@e)"]0G60`-6ND^)I2mI%>)QGYa=9"=7jhd-g2|b3!>Al0+ Ccb%xGQshhi|g@QU2$ X-Face-Author: Tony Svanstrom mailto:tls@kagi.com http://tls.base.org/ If you want to use it please also use this Authorline. In article , forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote: :Here's what I know of the story, corrections welcome: Not a correction, but a suggestion: ore paragraph breaks would help readability. :Steve and :several Aple engineers went and payed a pricy fee for a quick hands-off :tour of Xerox' system (either the Star or the Alto, I always get those two :confused). They didn't pay a fee, exactly -- they allowed Xerox to buy several thousand shares of Apple, which was not publicly traded at the time. :As :we all now nowadays, nobody cares about quality when it comes to the :almighty dollar, so they bought the cheaper Mac (Mouse-Activated Computer) :over it's ultra-powered Lisa (Last Inane, Silly Acronym) counterpart. Actually, the Lisa came first, and was all but discontinued in favor of the Mac. In the early 128/512K Mac days, Mac development had to be done on a Mac XL, as the Lisa was renamed. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There's so much comedy on television. Does that cause comedy in the streets?" -- Dick Cavett -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Andy Walton * atticus@mindspring.com * http://atticus.home.mindspring.com/ ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-dc.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!nntprelay.mathworks.com!gatech!hubcap.clemson.edu!sc.edu!snoopy.uscsumter.edu!trev From: trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 20:35:41 -0400 Organization: Metaphysical Bunko Squad Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: nas-sa-p10.usc.net X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.1 X-Face: $2FWSI:vKmWrfn;g5agvV!?4r;o*3FH6e<0\HqR'1=bPf!YHo}C\*d1{g4TM7l{xwe38gJQI4JG^YzGa`#itr<2Zmf7sfIPf@$+oJ:50X=Xf9]r2~xD4k#/j`+dM!l_RZO""T[]lqM0!"59Im#p4 In article , forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote: > Windows. Apple sued, and for a reason I don't recall, lost (although > everyone - well, almost everyone - acknowledges that MS did steal the GUI > idea from Apple). It took three full version number upgrades of Windows to Apple lost for the same reason that Microsoft stands a chance before the DOJ...the people in charge of administering justice didn't have a grasp of the technological issues involved. Apple sued to protect (copyright? patent?) it's "look and feel" which is sorta an abstract concept when applied to computers. Windows 3.1 was sufficiently different from the Mac OS that direct rip-off wasn't evident in the "look and feel" (after all, how many of us agree that Win 3.1 is remotely similar UI-wise to MacOS?) If the first Windows had come out looking like Win95, complete with "Start" menu, it would have been more evident. > eventually the dominant OS ever. You see, they used some of their code > from OS/2 to develop Windows NT, a new OS with all the modern buzzwords > now that the hardware could handle it. (Meanwhile Steve Jobs had left Not only that, but fortunately for them, DEC sold it soul (the first time) and Microsoft ended up with lots of VMS technology and the chief VMS engineer Dave Cutler trying to whip NT into shape. NT has respectable lineage, it just pales in comparison with its parentage, even into version 4.0. It still can't hold a candle in many respects to VMS or OS/2...kinda illustrative of just what Microsoft is capable of doing to great technology. Trev -- trev@sc.eduEATMOSPAM (unmunge) ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!chnws03.mediaone.net!24.131.1.12!denws01.mw.mediaone.net!news.gmi.edu!nova.kettering.edu!root From: Munged Email Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 23:42:38 -0400 Organization: Kettering University (formerly GMI E&MI) - Flint MI Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354e48b8.0@aedes.isd.net> Reply-To: Munged Email NNTP-Posting-Host: nova.kettering.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: lee1089@nova.kettering.edu In-Reply-To: <354e48b8.0@aedes.isd.net> On Mon, 4 May 1998, Scott Stevens wrote: > > Forrest Cameranesi wrote in message ... > > >Apple, wanted to make the graphical computer of his dreams. Steve Jobs > >didn't like the idea. So Jef told him to go to Xerox PARC and look at > >their GUI system, to see how graphics could help in a computer. Steve and > >several Aple engineers went and payed a pricy fee for a quick hands-off > >tour of Xerox' system > > It's my understanding that this "pricy fee" is the only payment Apple mad to > Xerox for adopting the GUI. Can anybody corraborate this? I've heard more > than once somebody claim that Apple "paid" to use the GUI. Is there a > liscence agreement or contract showing said payment? The way I heard it was that Steve and Co. paid Xerox with stock to go through PARC and use any ideas that they wanted. I believe I read that in a book called "Computer Wars" about how IBM lost their dominance over the computer world. --- The address in the from field is a spam blocking address, replying to that address will redirect your mail to your sysadmin. To send mail to me my username is lee1089 and my domain is kettering dot edu. ###### Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 08:14:13 -0400 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Message-ID: References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.183.91.129 Lines: 22 Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!ubnnews.unisource.ch!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!amsterdam.news.unisource.nl!gate.news.unisource.nl!sun4nl!EU.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.he.net!news.pagesat.net!news.dca.net!news.dol.net!joe.ragosta In article , atticus@mindspring.com (Andy Walton) wrote: > In article , > forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote: > > :Steve and > :several Aple engineers went and payed a pricy fee for a quick hands-off > :tour of Xerox' system (either the Star or the Alto, I always get those two > :confused). > > They didn't pay a fee, exactly -- they allowed Xerox to buy several > thousand shares of Apple, which was not publicly traded at the time. That's a fee. In legal terms, any consideration is enough to make the contract binding. Allowing them to buy stock at below its fair value is a form of consideration. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!stns.news.pipex.net!hose.news.pipex.net!grot.news.pipex.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!207.250.5.2!nntp.inc.net!news.inc.net!not-for-mail From: M Rassbach Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 08:51:25 -0500 Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net Lines: 30 Message-ID: <354F195C.48813FD8@milestonerdl.com> References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> Reply-To: mark@milestonerdl.com NNTP-Posting-Host: dial192-82.mixcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) Joe Ragosta wrote: > In article , > atticus@mindspring.com (Andy Walton) wrote: > > They didn't pay a fee, exactly -- they allowed Xerox to buy several > > thousand shares of Apple, which was not publicly traded at the time. > > That's a fee. In legal terms, any consideration is enough to make the > contract binding. Allowing them to buy stock at below its fair value is a > form of consideration The sources I've read in PUBLISHED books show a different story. (It's called research and facts...perhaps you've heard of that Joe?) Documentation of how no one else wanted Steve Jobs in their group. Documentation of how Jobs DIDNT want to go to PARC, until pushed by Bill/Jef How PARC was an open lab for years. How Jobs lied to the Macintosh group about the name. How the Xerox investment was a PRIVATE investment, BEFORE the company became public. (thus blowing yet another hole in what Ragosta presents as FACT) How Jobs tried to kill the Macintosh. And how Jef Raskin (The documented creator of the Macintosh) believed what was seen was the shaping of what became Lisa/Macintosh, yet was not copied. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!stns.news.pipex.net!hose.news.pipex.net!grot.news.pipex.net!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news1.best.com!ns3.vrx.net!not-for-mail From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 5 May 1998 09:47:12 GMT Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton. Lines: 32 Message-ID: <6imn70$nkm$4@ns3.vrx.net> References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354e48b8.0@aedes.isd.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mothra.oaai.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.9.4 Beta(i) Cc: stevenss@freenet.msp.mn.us In <354e48b8.0@aedes.isd.net> "Scott Stevens" claimed: > >Apple, wanted to make the graphical computer of his dreams. Steve Jobs > >didn't like the idea. So Jef told him to go to Xerox PARC and look at > >their GUI system, to see how graphics could help in a computer. Steve and > >several Aple engineers went and payed a pricy fee for a quick hands-off > >tour of Xerox' system The ONLY reference I have heard to this story is from Jef. It goes something like he wanted the GUI, so he got Jobs to go to Xerox, then Jobs came back and took over the project. I've not heard this story anywhere else, nor have I heard anything like it anywhere else. I have my doubts about this story, at least portions of it. Jef sells it as "this was all my idea, and look where I am now", yet I think there's a lot more to it than that. What makes me wonder about the validity is that at that time the Mac project was a 6809 driven machine with a text interface, whos "idea" in life was a closed-box-appliance computer. The Mac that was released was utterly unlike the original Mac designs (AFAIK) and represents much more of the Lisa project than the Mac. It seems to me the truth is somewhere in between - the Mac was progressing as a "mini-Apple-II", Jobs saw the Xerox stuff (for whatever reason), and then after the Lisa started to get in trouble he took over Mac and turned that into mini-Lisa. The reason I'm skeptical is the last part. If the GUI and such was all Jef's idea why is it that the Mac project didn't have one (at least according to what I've read) until after Jobs came over from the Lisa? Am I the only one that finds Jef's version of the events somewhat suspect? Maury ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!digex!newsreader.digex.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter0!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 5 May 1998 10:52:04 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 96 Message-ID: References: <6imn70$nkm$4@ns3.vrx.net> X-Posted-By: @206.165.43.129 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/alt.folklore.computers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maury Markowitz said: >In <354e48b8.0@aedes.isd.net> "Scott Stevens" claimed: > >> >Apple, wanted to make the graphical computer of his dreams. Steve Jobs >> >didn't like the idea. So Jef told him to go to Xerox PARC and look at >> >their GUI system, to see how graphics could help in a computer. Steve and >> >several Aple engineers went and payed a pricy fee for a quick hands-off >> >tour of Xerox' system > > The ONLY reference I have heard to this story is from Jef. It goes >something like he wanted the GUI, so he got Jobs to go to Xerox, then Jobs >came back and took over the project. I've not heard this story anywhere >else, nor have I heard anything like it anywhere else. I have my doubts >about this story, at least portions of it. Jef sells it as "this was all my >idea, and look where I am now", yet I think there's a lot more to it than >that. Jef does NOT say that. He says that the basic idea of the Mac was his: a user-friendly design using a bitmapped monitor and pointing device. There's lots of technologies that came from PARC and lots of technologies that were developed on the way. Jobs didn't like the idea of wasting so much computer power on "pretty pictures" and he killed the project. Raskin went over his head to Apple CEO (and money man) Mike Markkula and got the project restarted. > > What makes me wonder about the validity is that at that time the Mac >project was a 6809 driven machine with a text interface, whos "idea" in >life >was a closed-box-appliance computer. Half-right. It may have been a cheapo 6809 machine, but it was already bitmapped, not text-driven (at least according to Raskin in our telephone conversation a few years back). The Mac that was released was >utterly >unlike the original Mac designs (AFAIK) and represents much more of the >Lisa >project than the Mac. The LISA design was originally text-driven, you know. It was meant to be user-friendly from the start, but it was meant to be another Apple-II-style computer. That changed after the visit to PARC. It seems to me the truth is somewhere in between - >the >Mac was progressing as a "mini-Apple-II", Jobs saw the Xerox stuff (for >whatever reason), and then after the Lisa started to get in trouble he took >over Mac and turned that into mini-Lisa. > Actually he was driven off the Lisa team, I understand. The Mac was meant to be a bitmapped/GUI machine from the start (again, according to private and public statements by Raskin, as well as invited articles in the ACM journals, including the 40th Anniversary issue of the CACM: The Next 50 Years in Computing). > The reason I'm skeptical is the last part. If the GUI and such was all >Jef's idea why is it that the Mac project didn't have one (at least according >to what I've read) until after Jobs came over from the Lisa? Am I the only >one that finds Jef's version of the events somewhat suspect? > According to what *I* have read and heard directly from Raskin, the Mac ALWAYS had a bitmapped interface. Many elements came from Raskin. Many came from PARC. Many came from Atkinson and other members of the Mac team. Given that Raskin invented (or co-invented, perhaps) the concept of WYSIWYG printing using a bitmap graphics screen and print engine for his 1967 Master's thesis, it seems silly to claim that he wouldn't have tried to use his own ideas in a computer that he was designing from scratch 12 years later. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter0!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 5 May 1998 11:00:05 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net> X-Posted-By: @206.165.43.129 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/alt.folklore.computers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Evandro Menezes said: >One must not forget the hard part of the story: Apple hardware became >closed, monopolized and expensive. Like the Apple ][, the PC was >open, competitive and cheap. This was the recipe for Apple's success >that IBM copied so well, even better than Apple itself when it devised >the Mac. > >Could someone shed some light why the Mac was so different from the ][ >in this point? The original Mac project apparently was to be a $500 settop-like box consumer device using a graphical interface, not a do-everything SOHO computer. When Jobs took over the project, he apparently wanted to keep the appliance idea, but wanted it to be a do everything SOHO computer. It was a schizophrenic merging of two concepts: consumer appliance and desktop computer. That's why it was so expensive, so limited and lacked all the expansion capabilities of the more mainstream designs. It wasn't until the Mac II, which added slots and color, that the Mac took off. It became a full-fledged, expandable SOHO computer at that point, instead of a compromise between a desktop computer and Raskin's original idea. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### Date: 05 May 98 11:23:11 -0800 From: "Charlie Gibbs" Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) References: <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> Message-ID: <1334.429T556T6833585@sky.bus.com> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Lines: 28 X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) NNTP-Posting-Host: news.skybus.com Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!204.244.4.2!news.westel.com!news.skybus.com!204.244.247.108 In article ralphp@techie.com (Ralph Wade Phillips) writes: > I've said it before, and I'll say it again - Microsoft is to >software what McDonald's is to food ... References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: term2-29.vta.west.net X-Trace: daffy.sb.west.net 894395238 8746 205.254.241.61 (5 May 1998 19:07:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@daffy.sb.west.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 May 1998 19:07:18 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.3.5 In article <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net>, evandro@geocities.com (Evandro Menezes) wrote: > In , > forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote: > > >So it's a combination of luck, leaching off others, and general dirty > >tricks that lead to Windows being the dominant graphical OS, and > >eventually the dominant OS ever. > > One must not forget the hard part of the story: Apple hardware became > closed, monopolized and expensive. Like the Apple ][, the PC was > open, competitive and cheap. This was the recipe for Apple's success > that IBM copied so well, even better than Apple itself when it devised > the Mac. > > Could someone shed some light why the Mac was so different from the ][ > in this point? Like many others have pointed out, IBM didn't intend for there to be any clones, but they did publish specs on their PC design so others could make additions and peripherals for it. This was the hole that let Compaq and later others clone IBM's design, and IBM took a big hit from that. Apple saw what happened to IBM, and instead of making an open system like the Apple II (which several people did try to clone, but lost in court to Apple) or the IBM-PC, they designed a closed, sealed box that was "hacker proof". This kept Apple from taking the fall that IBM did (which I'll bet they only survived because they also had mainframes and terminals and loads of other products), but it led to their design not becoming as prominant as the ensuing Wintel machines, and the tiny niche that Apple now commands, as opposed to the huge niche that MS and Intel command through the uncountable PC vendors. The one catch is, though, Apple could have let others clone their hardware and licences the software (MacOS), so they would have been in both IBM and MS' shoes. IBM took a hit and MS rose, but with Apple filling both roles they might, just MIGHT have been able to make it. But they didn't take that risk, and the rest is history. -Forrest Cameranesi Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember: "We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live." ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!pln-e!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news1 From: telam@iquest.net (Tom Elam) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 13:24:47 GMT Organization: What? Here? No way! Lines: 114 Message-ID: <35520e60.1701739@news.newsguy.com> References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-470.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 On Mon, 04 May 1998 14:28:59 -0700, forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote: >In article , trev@sc.edu (Trevor >Zion Bauknight) wrote: > >> In article <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca>, mennis@escape.ca (M >> Ennis) wrote: >> >> > ] If the GUI was inevitable, why did Microsoft have to steal it from >> > ] Apple? And why was M$ selling DOS for years after the Mac OS, AmigaDOS, >> > ] and GEOS were all using GUIs? >> > WOW - a really good post. I could not put it down - like a good CLancy novel! >> I was one of the early adopters of Visicalc - on a TRS80 machine. I speak with some authority here. >MS' chief enemy was the guys who made VisiCALC, who's name escapes me >(VisiSoft?). They were working on a project call VisiON, another GUI >system (I have no details on this. Anyone?). So MS took Apple's prototype Never got very far and was a much more limited concept than the Mac. Visi was putting together a group of programs designed to run together - Visiword, Visicalc, Visigraph.....hmmmm, who picked that idea up? >Mac they had (they were Mac developers, afterall) and hacked together a >pseudo-clone of it on top of DOS, including very similar calls and such >(so I'm told. I'm not a programmer). I also have a vague (sp?) memory of >them buying out "VisiSoft", but that may be innacurate. The resulting As I recall Lotus bought Visi, kept the good people, and buried the products. >product was called Program Manager or some such, and later evolved into >Windows. Apple sued, and for a reason I don't recall, lost (although >everyone - well, almost everyone - acknowledges that MS did steal the GUI >idea from Apple). It took three full version number upgrades of Windows to >finally be usable, during which time the Mac had evolved various features >such as multitasking, a useable desktop, and thousands of apps. As a side >note, MS was working with IBM to develop OS/2, an OS that would be >graphical from the ground up ala the Mac and Lisa, but behind IBM's back >MS made a full suite of apps for Windows, then pulled support for OS/2 and >left IBM stranded. Windows now had it's own app suite, ran on the IBM playing around with it's own proprietary bus (Microchannel) that OS/2 would have had some advantages on. IBM was starting down the road of trying to create a non-clone clone, with their own proprietary OS and peripheral cards, to pull away from the standard clone machines. Part of the disagreement was over how open the standards would be. You had MS and Intel on one side and IBM on the other. IBM lost and the Microchannel machine died a richly deserved death. >ever-pervasive IBM-PC machines and their clones (which IBM tried to >circumvent, but that's another story) under a per-unit licence, and it ran >the uncountable DOS programs as well, leading to the success of Windows >and the relative failure of the Macintosh (and the near-absolute failure >of OS/2). > >So it's a combination of luck, leaching off others, and general dirty >tricks that lead to Windows being the dominant graphical OS, and >eventually the dominant OS ever. You see, they used some of their code >from OS/2 to develop Windows NT, a new OS with all the modern buzzwords Some? Most of the first version of NT was based on OS/2. >now that the hardware could handle it. (Meanwhile Steve Jobs had left >Apple and made another buzzword-compliant system with a great GUI, >perfectly supplemental to that of the Mac). NT had the same interface as >Windows. MS then began the development of Windows 4.0, which was to hack >the buzzwords from NT on top of DOS with a hybrid Mac/Win/NeXT interface >(which would also be grafted onto NT 4.0). Win4 eventually became Windows >93, 94, 95, and almost 96. All the time Apple had been developing Copland, Oh, come now. Win 95 was launched in early July, it was nowhere close to Win 96. The 950 gold release was actually available in April - if you knew where to get it. I am still running that good old 950, patched a few times, today. >a buzzword-compliant system (NuKernel) with an advanced interface. Copland >failed (due to poor management and tackling backward compatibility from >the wrong direction), Win95 came out, and now Apple is looked on as >lagging behind, which admittedly they are but it's not because of >laziness, it's management incompetance. Now, Apple bought back Steve's WOW - spot on. Apple sat there for 3-4 years, watching Win 95. All they ever did was release incremental upgrades - System 6, System 7, 7.1, 7.11, 7.2, up to System 7.6.x, each one becoming less stable and making a lot of people very unhappy. Also, don't forget that MS lagged over a year on their Mac release of Word 6. That was a killer for many mixed IBM/Mac sites. >second baby, NeXT, and is making a cross-platform >(Mac/Intel/MacOS/Win32/Unix), buzzword-compliant (Mach) system with an >interface combining the best from Mac and NeXT without any of that MS >inconsistant inelegant nonintuitive MDI shit. And MS is integrating a web >browser. > >-Forrest Cameranesi > >Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember: >"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live." --------------------------------------------- Tom Elam The Family Home Page is at: http://members.iquest.net/~telam/homepage.html The universe is not only stranger than we imagine, it's stranger than we CAN imagine Isaac Asimov ###### Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!ais.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!xyzzy!nntp From: "Ralph Wade Phillips" Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) X-Nntp-Posting-Host: 129.172.150.50 Message-ID: X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Lines: 26 Sender: nntp@news.boeing.com (Boeing NNTP News Access) Organization: The Boeing Company X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> In article , >forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote: (stuff deleted for bandwidth ... ) >Not only that, but fortunately for them, DEC sold it soul (the first time) >and Microsoft ended up with lots of VMS technology and the chief VMS >engineer Dave Cutler trying to whip NT into shape. NT has respectable >lineage, it just pales in comparison with its parentage, even into version >4.0. It still can't hold a candle in many respects to VMS or OS/2...kinda >illustrative of just what Microsoft is capable of doing to great >technology. > >Trev I've said it before, and I'll say it again - Microsoft is to software what McDonald's is to food ... Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) X-Nntp-Posting-Host: 129.172.150.50 Message-ID: X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Lines: 26 Sender: nntp@news.boeing.com (Boeing NNTP News Access) Organization: The Boeing Company X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> In article , >forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote: (stuff deleted for bandwidth ... ) >Not only that, but fortunately for them, DEC sold it soul (the first time) >and Microsoft ended up with lots of VMS technology and the chief VMS >engineer Dave Cutler trying to whip NT into shape. NT has respectable >lineage, it just pales in comparison with its parentage, even into version >4.0. It still can't hold a candle in many respects to VMS or OS/2...kinda >illustrative of just what Microsoft is capable of doing to great >technology. > >Trev I've said it before, and I'll say it again - Microsoft is to software what McDonald's is to food ... Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) References: <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net> Message-ID: <596.429T2168T8885317@sky.bus.com> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Lines: 15 X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) NNTP-Posting-Host: news.skybus.com Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!204.244.4.2!news.westel.com!news.skybus.com!204.244.247.117 In article atticus@mindspring.com (Andy Walton) writes: >It's worth remembering that in 1984, when the Macintosh came out, Apple >thought IBM was its chief competition. No one gave MicroSoft (as it was >spelled back then) a second thought. Was it really spelled that way? I realize that the despicable practice of BiCapitalization was just taking root back then, but I have no recollection of Microsoft ever spelling their name that way. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news1.best.com!ns3.vrx.net!not-for-mail From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 5 May 1998 15:14:01 GMT Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton. Lines: 57 Message-ID: <6inabp$3of$7@ns3.vrx.net> References: <6imn70$nkm$4@ns3.vrx.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mothra.oaai.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.9.4 Beta(i) Cc: english@primenet.com In "Lawson English" claimed: > Jef does NOT say that. He says that the basic idea of the Mac was his: a > user-friendly design using a bitmapped monitor and pointing device. That's a simplification, the implication is (and to some degree directly stated) that he "pushed" Jobs into the Xerox trip (a statement no other published account repeats) and that when he came back it was off to the races. However before that time the Mac, according to what I've _read_ had a bit mapped display in the same way the Apple II did, and in general was a simplified and more powerful Apple, not a "downgraded" Lisa as the project later became. And THAT'S why I find the story suspect - according to everything I've seen on Apple's history the Mac became the _Mac_ when Jobs moved to it from the Lisa project. _if_ that's true then Jef's statements that Jobs went to Xerox because of his urging seems somewhat suspect. > Half-right. It may have been a cheapo 6809 machine, but it was already > bitmapped, not text-driven (at least according to Raskin in our telephone > conversation a few years back). But as I've said, this is the only indication of this. Others claim the machine was very Apple-like in everything but the specific technologies. The question is not about the specifics of the machine anyway, but it's goals, was Jef out to make the Mac (as we know it today) or something else? From what I can tell it's something else. > The LISA design was originally text-driven, you know. It was meant to be > user-friendly from the start, but it was meant to be another Apple-II-style > computer. That changed after the visit to PARC. It's possible I have the two projects confused? Possible but I don't think so. Are you sure it's not the other way around? > According to what *I* have read and heard directly from Raskin, the Mac > ALWAYS had a bitmapped interface. But so does a Apple II if you want it. That's not the issue, did it have a _GUI_? > Given that Raskin invented (or co-invented, perhaps) the concept of WYSIWYG > printing using a bitmap graphics screen and print engine for his 1967 > Master's thesis, it seems silly to claim that he wouldn't have tried to use > his own ideas in a computer that he was designing from scratch 12 years > later. No it's not, because I'm familiar with some of the efforts underway at the time, and it's hardly unique. For instance the SRI folks HAD a bitmapped machine with a pointing device AT THAT TIME (ie, not just papers) yet it had nothing that you'd call a GUI. The destinction here is more than what generates the characters, it's how you interact with the machine. I do ftp's from the command line in a bit mapped screen, but it's still not a GUI. Maury ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newshub.northeast.verio.net!news1.best.com!ns3.vrx.net!not-for-mail From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 5 May 1998 16:11:39 GMT Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton. Lines: 9 Message-ID: <6indnr$c0h$4@ns3.vrx.net> References: <6imn70$nkm$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inabp$3of$7@ns3.vrx.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mothra.oaai.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.9.4 Beta(i) Cc: gierkeNOSPAM@delaware.infi.net In Patrick William Gierke claimed: > I can answer this fully with one word: YES. I was exposed to the original > Macintosh (the one with 128k of RAM) when I was four years old. That is not the original Macintosh in terms of this thread. Maury ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!208.131.160.208!news.infi.net!gierkeNOSPAM From: gierkeNOSPAM@delaware.infi.net (Patrick William Gierke) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 16:53:16 -0500 Organization: Irish, and damn proud of it! Lines: 41 Message-ID: References: <6imn70$nkm$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inabp$3of$7@ns3.vrx.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-41.ile.infi.net X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 X-Face: "n8_iKH"Ho#{H7zT3_LwOQF'5]tkh.}&$xz;FnTFNFeelS\jP6U`lq5fg^kgk "U.EX&yu;shPi:JdV.Sg##"chDE/06q{]1G]mN&P1(QUHO&!`lGw`xb8VKQ_acmZH>uO =iA7N0YiXQ[MP$M~f([RK]J7<%R5JEKp%2sq`j But so does a Apple II if you want it. That's not the issue, did it have a > _GUI_? > I can answer this fully with one word: YES. I was exposed to the original Macintosh (the one with 128k of RAM) when I was four years old. We still have disks that contain system version 0.97 (that REALLY is zero-point-nine-seven), and it still operates under the same concepts of the MacOS today: Graphically based pull-down menus that are accessed via the mouse, windows with graphical "buttons" (which animate) and with scroll bars, icons which represent files and folders (although folders really didn't exist under the old MFS) as well as functions (the trash can). It's really fun for me to 'go retro' and pull out those old manuals on the Mac Plus (we upgraded our original Mac to a 512k, and then to a Plus) and flip through them. Its surprising on how many features have been added over the years. For example, the original version of the Mac system software did not have small icons for list views. It did not have the zoom widget. It did not have the windowshade widget. Didn't have a multitasking finder (multifinder came w/ system 5). It did not support drag and drop document opening.It could fit onto a 400k floppy w/ penty o' space. There was no support for color. The only way to install fonts and desk accessories (remember those..?) was with a special application. Extensions and control panels didn't exist for a few years (it was just the imagewriter driver, the clipboard, the Finder, and the system file). The early MacOS did have a few (very few) advantages. You could switch systems on the fly (just launch and app on another diskette, and the system files would change over). You could assign an application to replace the finder on startup (useful for emergency disks). You didn't have to worry about cluttering the screen with windows, simply because you could only have ONE app open at a time. -- ³I pledge to punch all switches, to never shoot where I could use grenades, to admit the existence of no level except Total Carnage, to never use Caps Lock as my Œrun¹ key, and to never, ever, leave a single Bob alive.² -- Oath of the Vidmaster ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed1.news.luth.se!luth.se!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!news.mindspring.net!news.mindspring.com!atticus From: atticus@mindspring.com (Andy Walton) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 17:15:46 -0400 Organization: Waltonschauung Lines: 43 Message-ID: References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: user-38lcdtd.dialup.mindspring.com X-Server-Date: 5 May 1998 21:15:58 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 X-Face: nrf3>{WQ6c&r+7@e)"]0G60`-6ND^)I2mI%>)QGYa=9"=7jhd-g2|b3!>Al0+ Ccb%xGQshhi|g@QU2$ X-Face-Author: Tony Svanstrom mailto:tls@kagi.com http://tls.base.org/ If you want to use it please also use this Authorline. In article <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net>, evandro@geocities.com (Evandro Menezes) wrote: :One must not forget the hard part of the story: Apple hardware became :closed, monopolized and expensive. Like the Apple ][, the PC was :open, competitive and cheap. This was the recipe for Apple's success :that IBM copied so well, even better than Apple itself when it devised :the Mac. : :Could someone shed some light why the Mac was so different from the ][ :in this point? It's worth remembering that in 1984, when the Macintosh came out, Apple thought IBM was its chief competition. No one gave MicroSoft (as it was spelled back then) a second thought. IBM's lunch was being eaten by cloners -- including Compaq, and some largely-forgotten names like Leading Edge. Apple wanted to avoid that -- and the Mac was designed from the bottom up to integrate hardware and software. So key OS routines were burned into the ROM, which was copyrighted. No clones. Remember that the rampant cloning of the PC was not a bonanza for IBM. What you praise as IBM's openness was an accident, one that cost Big Blue dearly. It was great for Compaq and Microsoft, but IBM hemorraghed money for a while (remember the billion-dollar losses of the early '90s?). So IBM tried again, still thinking it could single-handedly set standards the way it did in the mainframe market. The failure of OS/2 and the microchannel bus demonstrated how the market had changed. Apple wasn't looking at the Microsoft model, which barely existed at the time -- they were looking at IBM, which was being cut off at the knees by clones. So Apple succeeded, in that it avoided IBM's mistakes. It also avoided Microsoft's successes. But if any of us were more prescient than Apple -- if we knew Microsoft would have the success it has -- we would have bought stock then, and we'd be posting from a laptop on the beach at St. Tropez. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- How the hell would you like to be in MY position? Pathetic, ain't it? -- Bob Whitaker -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Andy Walton * atticus@mindspring.com * http://atticus.home.mindspring.com/ ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!165.166.15.6!news2.infoave.net!not-for-mail From: bernie@fantasyfarm.com (Bernie Cosell) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 17:16:24 GMT Organization: Fantasy Farm Fibers Lines: 52 Message-ID: <354f45fa.628426@nntp.infoave.net> References: <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354e48b8.0@aedes.isd.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pem05-30.swva.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 "Scott Stevens" wrote: } Forrest Cameranesi wrote in message ... } } >Apple, wanted to make the graphical computer of his dreams. Steve Jobs } >didn't like the idea. So Jef told him to go to Xerox PARC and look at } >their GUI system, to see how graphics could help in a computer. Steve and } >several Aple engineers went and payed a pricy fee for a quick hands-off } >tour of Xerox' system } } It's my understanding that this "pricy fee" is the only payment Apple mad to } Xerox for adopting the GUI. Can anybody corraborate this? I've heard more } than once somebody claim that Apple "paid" to use the GUI. Is there a } liscence agreement or contract showing said payment? In "Fumbling the Future", they write: Ensuing discussions between Xerox and Apple fizzled. But within months of Job's visit, Tesler left Xerox for Apple, and Jobs ordered an Apple team to design the "Lisa", a computer introduced in 1983. The Lisa replicated many features invented at Xerox ... "Office equipment analysts have started referring to PARC-style systems as "Lisa-like", not "Star-like", noted a reporter. Apple's next computer, MacIntosh, scheduled to ripen into a commercial product by the end of this year, could further identify Apple with PARC's ideas. ... The Jobs boner upset a number of PARC people who believed that the Xerox investment group should have been looking for ways to invest in developing, not disclosing, PARC's ideas. ... "To allow Jobs to see the power of the system and gain access to bright people was a dumb thing to do. And he did make off with Tesler. Once he saw it, the damage was done; he just had to know that it was doable. Just like the Russians and the A-bomb. They developed it very quickly once they knew it was doable." ....IN September of 1983, Fortune ran a major article entitle, "The Lab that Ran Away From Xerox." Featuring Ellenby, Simonyi and Tesler, the piece criticized Xerox both for letting so many talented researchers escape and for failing to profit from the computerized office systems invented at PARC. =================================================== There is no mention anywhere of there being any 'deal' between Apple and Xerox nor of Xerox getting any compensation for their work/ideas... /Bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.mindspring.net!news.mindspring.com!atticus From: atticus@mindspring.com (Andy Walton) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 17:22:48 -0400 Organization: Waltonschauung Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: user-38lcdtd.dialup.mindspring.com X-Server-Date: 5 May 1998 21:22:57 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 X-Face: nrf3>{WQ6c&r+7@e)"]0G60`-6ND^)I2mI%>)QGYa=9"=7jhd-g2|b3!>Al0+ Ccb%xGQshhi|g@QU2$ X-Face-Author: Tony Svanstrom mailto:tls@kagi.com http://tls.base.org/ If you want to use it please also use this Authorline. In article , "Lawson English" wrote: :It wasn't until the Mac II, which added slots and color, that the Mac took :off. It became a full-fledged, expandable SOHO computer at that point, :instead of a compromise between a desktop computer and Raskin's original :idea. Yes and no. The Mac really took off with the Mac Plus, which had a megabyte of RAM (ooh!) and SCSI. It had serious faults, but it had two things that no PC clone had -- the Laserwriter and Postscript. WYSIWYG. Desktop publishing. We've gotten used to it today, but it was revolutionary at the time. I produced my high school newspaper on a Mac Plus in the late '80s; $3000 worth of hardware (a Mac Plus, and we shared a LaserWriter with the rest of the county) saved us $600 or so per issue in typesetting fees. It did the same for small publications, church and club newsletters, and even serious publishers all over the country. The GUI may have been the Mac's greatest innovation, but it was PostScript that gave it the niche it needed to survive -- the Mac's most persistent niche to this day. -- "Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention, but the wheel does not go nearly as well with pizza." -- Dave Barry -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Andy Walton * atticus@mindspring.com * http://atticus.home.mindspring.com/ ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter0!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 5 May 1998 17:23:02 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <6inabp$3of$7@ns3.vrx.net> X-Posted-By: @206.165.43.149 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/alt.folklore.computers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maury Markowitz said: >> The LISA design was originally text-driven, you know. It was meant to be >> user-friendly from the start, but it was meant to be another Apple-II- >style >> computer. That changed after the visit to PARC. > > It's possible I have the two projects confused? Possible but I don't think >so. Are you sure it's not the other way around? Raskin explicitly told me this on the telephone. I've heard it from others, also. The Lisa actually started a month or two before the Mac did, from what I've rea, but it didn't get a GUI until AFTER the Jobs came back from PARC. The Mac was always meant to use a pointing device of some kind. Using bitmapped graphics (not just text) requires some kind of pointing device to handle it efficiently and easily. The Canon Cat, by the way, ALSO comes with a port for a pointing device (or so Raskin claims) but Canon didn't have one and they didn't have a dot matrix printer at the time, so they never marketed those features. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter0!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 5 May 1998 17:25:02 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <354f45fa.628426@nntp.infoave.net> X-Posted-By: @206.165.43.149 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/alt.folklore.computers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bernie Cosell said: > >There is no mention anywhere of there being any 'deal' between Apple and >Xerox nor of Xerox getting any compensation for their work/ideas... Raskin insists that there is in a Letter to the Editor of SIGCHI about 5 years ago. That's about as first-hand an account as you can get, quoting the original Macintosh Project leader, commenting explicitly on what went on between PARC and Apple at that time. Your sources are, at best, second-hand. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter0!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 5 May 1998 17:30:03 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: X-Posted-By: @206.165.43.149 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/alt.folklore.computers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andy Walton said: >But if any of us were more prescient than >Apple -- if we knew Microsoft would have the success it has -- we would >have bought stock then, and we'd be posting from a laptop on the beach at >St. Tropez. Actually, I have heard that at one time, Apple Computer was the largest corporate investor in Microsoft... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!in3.uu.net!bulb.garlic.com!stevehix From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 17:48:18 -0700 Organization: South Valley Internet Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip60.safemail.com X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.1 In article <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net>, evandro@geocities.com (Evandro Menezes) wrote: > In , > forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote: > > >So it's a combination of luck, leaching off others, and general dirty > >tricks that lead to Windows being the dominant graphical OS, and > >eventually the dominant OS ever. > > One must not forget the hard part of the story: Apple hardware became > closed, monopolized and expensive. Like the Apple ][, the PC was > open, competitive and cheap. Other than having expansion slots, the Apple][ line were never "open" particularly. Documentation of OS entry points was, often, included with the system documentation, but not always. It was also available for the Mac, but not for "free". Slots began appearing at least by the SE/30, and pretty much without exception from the Mac II on. > This was the recipe for Apple's success that IBM copied so well, even > better than Apple itself when it devised the Mac. IBM "succeeded" by losing its position in the marketplace when clones appeared and took the market away from them. > Could someone shed some light why the Mac was so different from the ][ > in this point? - It didn't have slots for expansion cards. - You had to pay more for programming model information. The original rationale was that the vast majority of buyers never did more than set up the system, switch it on and use it. (And complained about having to install floppy controller or any other internal or external devices. This was mistakenly understood by SJ as best being met by a machine with no expansion slots...) ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter0!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 5 May 1998 17:53:00 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <354FA875.BE6849D5@ccw.ch.remove> X-Posted-By: @206.165.43.149 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/alt.folklore.computers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Neil Franklin said: >> Jef Raskin was the creative genious who came up with the idea. He wrote >> his thesis on it, called "The Quick Draw System". I can't remember what >> his involvement with PARC was, > >AFAIK he visited Xerox in the Alto days and got the idea from there. The >original easy computer idea at Xerox was Alan Kays Dynabook (he called >the Alto the Interim Dynabook). > Raskin's Master thesis was published in 1967, several years before PARC got started. He visited PARC in the early days and traded ideas back and forth with some of the people there before working at Apple, but the core concepts of the Mac, according to Raskin, came from his 1967 paper, not his PARC visits. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!207.207.0.26!nntp.giganews.com!uunet!in4.uu.net!bulb.garlic.com!stevehix From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 17:55:41 -0700 Organization: South Valley Internet Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <6imn70$nkm$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inabp$3of$7@ns3.vrx.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip60.safemail.com X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.1 In article <6inabp$3of$7@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > In "Lawson English" claimed: > > According to what *I* have read and heard directly from Raskin, the Mac > > ALWAYS had a bitmapped interface. It did. > But so does a Apple II if you want it. Kind of sorta not really... You *could* address screen pixels directly, and things like games did it, but for most applications the text used was from system ROM. The Apple///, on the other hand, loaded the character set into RAM, which you could change on the fly. It wasn't there, either, but it was leaning in that direction. The //e could do some of the same stuff, and there was at least one graphics mode that changed characters on the fly to permit a similar effect. > That's not the issue, did it have a _GUI_? Not 'till later (pretty much not until after the Mac came out). ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter0!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 5 May 1998 17:57:01 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <354FA875.BE6849D5@ccw.ch.remove> X-Posted-By: @206.165.43.149 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/alt.folklore.computers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Neil Franklin said: >> Jef, when working at >> Apple, wanted to make the graphical computer of his dreams. Steve Jobs >> didn't like the idea. So Jef told him to go to Xerox PARC and look at >> their GUI system, to see how graphics could help in a computer. Steve and >> several Aple engineers went and payed a pricy fee for a quick hands-off >> tour of Xerox' system (either the Star or the Alto, I always get those two >> confused). Steve saw and liked the idea of graphics in a computer, so >> Apple started researching the best ways to implement it. > >AFAIK Steve went a lot later to Xerox and saw the Star/Cedar, an lot >more complex system than the Alto. He tried to copy that as the Lisa. >Later after setbacks he took over the Mac project and Lisaified it, >transforming it completely. Raskin had started work on a bitmapped graphics computer with pointing device that he called the "Macintosh" in March of 1979. Jobs didn't like it. The first Jobs-Atkinson visit to PARC took place in December of 1979 after Raskin coached Jobs and Atkinson (a former student who had come to work for Apple at Raskin's suggestion) in the principles of human centric design. The reason why Jobs got the reputation of being so brilliant in human-centered computing is because he neglected to tell anyone at PARC that his perceptive questions about GUIs and so on were drawn from his discussions of such things with Raskin at Apple a month or two earlier. He masterfully made it appear as though he was encountering bitmapped GUIs for the first time in his life instead of having discussed them with someone who had visited PARC himself. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!peerfeed.ncal.verio.net!Supernews60!supernews.com!uunet!in4.uu.net!bulb.garlic.com!stevehix From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 17:58:25 -0700 Organization: South Valley Internet Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <6imn70$nkm$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inabp$3of$7@ns3.vrx.net> <6indnr$c0h$4@ns3.vrx.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip60.safemail.com X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.1 In article <6indnr$c0h$4@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > In Patrick William Gierke > claimed: > > I can answer this fully with one word: YES. I was exposed to the original > > Macintosh (the one with 128k of RAM) when I was four years old. > > That is not the original Macintosh in terms of this thread. Even that wasn't really a Mac, it was a series of prototypes that eventually grew into what became the Mac. ###### Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 18:47:08 -0400 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Message-ID: References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net> X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.3.5 NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.196.78.47 Lines: 15 Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!howland.erols.net!news.pagesat.net!news.dca.net!news.dol.net!joe.ragosta In article <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net>, evandro@geocities.com (Evandro Menezes) wrote: > One must not forget the hard part of the story: Apple hardware became > closed, monopolized and expensive. I suppose you mean like Slot 1? Or Slot 2? Or the two different variants of mobile Pentium II mounting? -- Regards, Joe Ragosta See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!peerfeed.ncal.verio.net!Supernews60!supernews.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!bulb.garlic.com!stevehix From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 20:23:15 -0700 Organization: South Valley Internet Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354FA875.BE6849D5@ccw.ch.remove> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip60.safemail.com X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.1 In article <354FA875.BE6849D5@ccw.ch.remove>, Neil Franklin wrote: > Forrest Cameranesi wrote: > > Meanwhile, several others were working on graphical systems as well. Back > > in these days, MS was friends with Apple, they were a big developer for > > the Apple II and many of their top-selling products today came out on the > > I know of no MS product for Apple II, even the ROM Basic was not from > MS. Integer BASIC was originally developed by Apple (Woz). Applesoft was derived from Microsoft BASIC, IIRC. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!164.67.42.145!awabi.library.ucla.edu!132.239.1.220!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news1.ucsd.edu!mbkennel From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 5 May 1998 20:31:23 GMT Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd. Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> Reply-To: mbkennel yahoo.com NNTP-Posting-Host: lyapunov.ucsd.edu X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) :(after all, :how many of us agree that Win 3.1 is remotely similar UI-wise to MacOS?) In reality, quite so. Compared to the Xerox machines and Lisp machines and Sunview machines at the time which each had their own user interfaces, and especially the programmer interfaces, Windows was practically a clone. They really muffed it with ''innovations'' like Program Manager and File Manager instead of Finder, but -- * Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD - * "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that * there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk... * _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they *- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'" ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newshub.northeast.verio.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail From: viro@riemann.math.psu.edu (Alexander Viro) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 5 May 1998 20:55:03 -0400 Organization: -ENOENT Lines: 16 Approved: Who cares? Message-ID: <6iocd7$da8@riemann.math.psu.edu> References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.ne NNTP-Posting-Host: riemann.math.psu.edu In article , Joe Ragosta wrote: >In article <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net>, evandro@geocities.com >(Evandro Menezes) wrote: > >> One must not forget the hard part of the story: Apple hardware became >> closed, monopolized and expensive. > >I suppose you mean like Slot 1? Or Slot 2? Or the two different variants >of mobile Pentium II mounting? Yup. But way before these examples of similar stupidity. BTW, Intel idiocy with Slot 1, Slot 2, etc. made many people switch to AMD and Cyrix. At least they use normal Slot 7. Or yet another case: MCA. Results were: a) self-LARTed IBM; b) EISA accepted by everybody else. As for the _earlier_ examples of the same disease - think about connector conspiracy (DEC). ###### Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 21:37:06 -0500 From: djboccip@hiwaay.net (Dr. Dennis J. Boccippio) Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Message-ID: References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354FA875.BE6849D5@ccw.ch.remove> Organization: NASA/MSFC HR-20 X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Lines: 231 Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!208.147.154.58!news.hiwaay.net!djboccip NNTP-Posting-Host: tnt1-249.HiWAAY.net 208.147.147.249 For a little "background", see: http://www.mackido.com/Interface/ui_history.html If you cut through the obviously partisan spin here, and accept that these are personal letters and certainly not unbiased, there are still some very key points about the nature of the PARC and Lisa interfaces; specifically about treating interface elements as "nouns" or "verbs" (been a while since I read the piece, forgive the fuzziness). Regardless of the "who got it first" question, the fact remains that a significant amount of conceptual innovation went into the actual Lisa/Mac GUI. All things graphic are not necessarily equal... DJB In article <354FA875.BE6849D5@ccw.ch.remove>, Neil Franklin wrote: > Forrest Cameranesi wrote: > > > > Here's what I know of the story, corrections welcome: > > OK, I will try it. Of course my version may also be wrong. I am basing > it on "A History of Personal Workstations", Adele Goldberg (Ed), ACM > Press and on multiple magazine articles (mostly in 198x Byte issues). > > > > Jef Raskin was the creative genious who came up with the idea. He wrote > > his thesis on it, called "The Quick Draw System". I can't remember what > > his involvement with PARC was, > > AFAIK he visited Xerox in the Alto days and got the idea from there. The > original easy computer idea at Xerox was Alan Kays Dynabook (he called > the Alto the Interim Dynabook). > > > > but suffice it to say he came up with the > > idea for both Apple and Xerox. But Apple and Xerox did two very different > > systems. > > According to above book the original Xerox system (Alto, 1973) had no > native GUI, nor an all encompassing environment. Rather it DOS-like had > an simple program loader as its OS. Remember that we are talking about > an 5.883MHz, microcoded, 64kWord*16bit memory machine, with the > bitmapped video (606x808, 1bpp) coming from main memory (like todays > UMA) costing 30kWord and 2/3 machine cycles. > > > > Xerox had no overlapping windows, the mouse was used for > > graphical manipulation of text (drag-select, copy, paste) and for clicking > > icons, which instead of representing files as they do in most current GUIs > > (all of the ones I've seen , at least), they represented actions to > > execute, similar to how menus are used nowadays. > > Each Alto application had its own interface. The Bravo text editor used > Emacs-like (or did Emacs copy it) horizontal splitting. Markup draw > program used full screen with pop up menues. Smalltalk, the only GUI, > used "real" windows. Cedar on the Star (1980) had screen splitting (no > floating windows) and MS Program Manager like icons for programs (not > files) as an bar at the bottom. > > (I am describing this from an set of photos in above book). > > > > Jef, when working at > > Apple, wanted to make the graphical computer of his dreams. Steve Jobs > > didn't like the idea. So Jef told him to go to Xerox PARC and look at > > their GUI system, to see how graphics could help in a computer. Steve and > > several Aple engineers went and payed a pricy fee for a quick hands-off > > tour of Xerox' system (either the Star or the Alto, I always get those two > > confused). Steve saw and liked the idea of graphics in a computer, so > > Apple started researching the best ways to implement it. > > AFAIK Steve went a lot later to Xerox and saw the Star/Cedar, an lot > more complex system than the Alto. He tried to copy that as the Lisa. > Later after setbacks he took over the Mac project and Lisaified it, > transforming it completely. > > > > Eventually they > > came up with a desktop on which icons of disks and a trash can rested, and > > when these icons were double-clicked (using a single button mouse, as > > studies showed multiple clicks with one button was better than the > > combination-clicking-of-many-buttons approach Xerox had used) > > The trashcan and the one button mouse were genuine to Apple. These are > the 2 parts Microsoft ended up being forbidden to do in the law mess > with Apple. On all other points Apple lost. > > > > From this basic concept came two different > > approaches: the Macintosh and the Lisa (both code names originally). The > > Macintosh was Jef's baby, a simple graphical computing appliance that > > anybody could use, in one small box that sat on your desk. > > As for Jef Raskins ideas: when he left Apple in 1982 after Jobs took > over Mac he founded an firm called Information Appliance. There he wrote > Swyftware for the Apple II. He later designed custom Hardware (68000, > 256k RAM, 720k floppy, simple (typewriter) keyboard with 2 "leap" keys > (essentialy incremental search in both directions), no mouse, no > graphics, no icons. This was marketed as the Canon Cat into the > typewriter replacement market. All data was stored as one large text > scroll with separator lines (hints of Newton or PalmPilot?), no files > (all RAM was written to floppy in one stream, formatting at the same > time) and for programming sections of Forth could be inserted into the > text, then selected and press Run the key. > > (According to Byte Oct 87, page 121) > > > > Meanwhile, several others were working on graphical systems as well. Back > > in these days, MS was friends with Apple, they were a big developer for > > the Apple II and many of their top-selling products today came out on the > > I know of no MS product for Apple II, even the ROM Basic was not from > MS. > > > > system (I have no details on this. Anyone?). So MS took Apple's prototype > > Mac they had (they were Mac developers, afterall) and hacked together a > > pseudo-clone of it on top of DOS, including very similar calls and such > > (so I'm told. I'm not a programmer). > > Actually Charles Simonji (spelling?) who wrote Bravo came to MS and > there wrote first Word and then was project leader for Windows 1.x. So > MS copied directly from Xerox (they actually had an Star, so Xerox did > get something from them :-)). > > > > I also have a vague (sp?) memory of > > them buying out "VisiSoft", but that may be innacurate. > > No. The Visicalc people (not VisiSoft, but I can not remember the real > name) were bought by Lotus, to get rid of competition for 1-2-3. > > > > The resulting > > product was called Program Manager or some such, and later evolved into > > Windows. > > Program Manager only appeared in Windows 3.0. Anyone still remember that > awfull MS DOS Exectutive in per 3.0 Windows? > > Are you perhaps thinking of IBMs TopView? Or Quaterdecks DesqView? > > > > Apple sued, and for a reason I don't recall, lost (although > > everyone - well, almost everyone - acknowledges that MS did steal the GUI > > idea from Apple). > > See above: they were given exclusive rights to the trashcan (thats why > Windows has none), and to the one button mouse (that is why the MS mouse > has two). > > > > It took three full version number upgrades of Windows to > > finally be usable, during which time the Mac had evolved various features > > such as multitasking, a useable desktop, and thousands of apps. > > What multitasking? That is the one thing where Macs really suck. Even > compared to Windows 3.0!!! > > > > now that the hardware could handle it. (Meanwhile Steve Jobs had left > > Apple and made another buzzword-compliant system with a great GUI, > > perfectly supplemental to that of the Mac). > > He was thrown out over his plans for the Mac III. The result was that he > made the NeXT, Unix system with the nicest* GUI to ever grace an screen. > BTW: I am ex-president of the Swiss NeXT User Group (nice.ch). > > * OK, window maker and gnome for X/Linux ist even nicer. > > > > Windows. MS then began the development of Windows 4.0, which was to hack > > the buzzwords from NT on top of DOS with a hybrid Mac/Win/NeXT interface > > (which would also be grafted onto NT 4.0). Win4 eventually became Windows > > 93, 94, 95, and almost 96. > > Win95 is definitely a clone of the NeXTstep look. The only good bit of > Win95 :-). > > > > Now, Apple bought back Steve's > > second baby, NeXT, and is making a cross-platform > > (Mac/Intel/MacOS/Win32/Unix), buzzword-compliant (Mach) > > NeXTstep has had an Mach 2.5 Kernal under it since version 0.x. It has > been long ported to i386, HP-PA, Sparc. Rhapsody actualy makes the long > overdue step to Mach 3.0. > > > > system with an interface combining the best from Mac and NeXT > > Rhapsody is the NeXTstep port for PPC (NeXT had a cancelled PPC project) > with an Mac emulator thrown in for backwards compatibility. I at work > (ethz.ch) have an mixed Mac/SGI environment and am thinking of using > Rhapsody to unify Mac and Unix. > > > > without any of that MS > > inconsistant inelegant nonintuitive MDI shit. > > Yes, MDI is crap. Retch. If it weren't for the crashes I would call this > the most losing feature on Windows. BTW it came from avoiding an truly > integrated desktop out of fear of Apple. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cs.utexas.edu!not-for-mail From: mschaef@cs.utexas.edu (Michael Alan Schaeffer) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 5 May 1998 21:44:07 -0500 Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin Lines: 22 Message-ID: <6ioipn$gco$1@bark.cs.utexas.edu> References: <35520e60.1701739@news.newsguy.com> <6io6bs$adv$1@newshost.comnet.co.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: bark.cs.utexas.edu X-Trace: news.cs.utexas.edu 894422649 19481 mschaef 128.83.158.27 X-Complaints-To: usenet@cs.utexas.edu In article <6io6bs$adv$1@newshost.comnet.co.nz>, Gaven Miller wrote: > lol >Windows 95 was launched on August 24th, 1995. (A Thursday, I believe) That's right. A friend of mine and I went to CompUSA around five minutes past midnight on the 24th (to heckle :-). The line extended outside of the store and circled around most of the inside. People were picking up Win95 boxes, MS Plus boxes, and heading straight to the hardware upgrade section of the store. It was amazing. I wonder if Win98 will be similar. > -- -Mike http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mschaef ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!not-for-mail From: mschaef@cs.utexas.edu (Michael Alan Schaeffer) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 5 May 1998 21:56:50 -0500 Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin Lines: 35 Message-ID: <6iojhj$gfr$1@bark.cs.utexas.edu> References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.ne <354fb3d5.0@aedes.isd.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: bark.cs.utexas.edu X-Trace: news.cs.utexas.edu 894423412 19958 mschaef 128.83.158.27 X-Complaints-To: usenet@cs.utexas.edu In article <354fb3d5.0@aedes.isd.net>, Scott Stevens wrote: >I actually picked up a copy of it [HP NewWave] at one point, So did I. Kept it for about a week. >because I figured if Apple considered it an equal threat with Microsoft, it >must be pretty good stuff. >Essentially it's an "object-oriented" desktop overlay for Windows 3. It actually went further back than that. NewWave was originally an extension to Windows, in much the same way Windows extends DOS. An early Byte Magazine review of the product went into some detail about the process of converting a Windows application to NewWave. There were new messages, new API calls, a style guide. The end result was an application that could talk to the NewWave desktop, expose objects, use a common scripting language (Agents), and generally do a lot of what OLE now offert. What eventually happened is that HP relized that nobody was spending the effort to make NewWave aware applications (except for Samna, with Ami Pro) so they decided to make NewWave work better with existing applications. By the time I played around with NewWave, HP didn't even support development of NewWave native applications. The desktop still supported scripting and the rest, but it just wasn't well integrated enough to compete with the likes of Norton Desktop for Windows, etc. as a Windows desktop replacement. -- -Mike http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mschaef ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cs.utexas.edu!not-for-mail From: mschaef@cs.utexas.edu (Michael Alan Schaeffer) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 5 May 1998 22:06:20 -0500 Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin Lines: 17 Message-ID: <6iok3c$gl2$1@bark.cs.utexas.edu> References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <354FA875.BE6849D5@ccw.ch.remove> NNTP-Posting-Host: bark.cs.utexas.edu X-Trace: news.cs.utexas.edu 894423983 20307 mschaef 128.83.158.27 X-Complaints-To: usenet@cs.utexas.edu In article <354FA875.BE6849D5@ccw.ch.remove>, Neil Franklin wrote: >I know of no MS product for Apple II, even the ROM Basic was not from >MS. They made a CP/M board for the Apple II. >Program Manager only appeared in Windows 3.0. Anyone still remember that >awfull MS DOS Exectutive in per 3.0 Windows? Yup. A little known fact is that is was also in Windows 3.0. The default shell was just Program Manager. It's kind of like Program Manager being included in Win95. -- -Mike http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mschaef ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!nntprelay.mathworks.com!intgwlon.nntp.telstra.net!news.telstra.net.nz!newshost.comnet.co.nz!inca01!gmiller From: gmiller@inca.co.nz (Gaven Miller) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Followup-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Date: 5 May 1998 23:11:56 GMT Organization: Comnet Technologies Ltd, Wellington, NEW ZEALAND Lines: 28 Message-ID: <6io6bs$adv$1@newshost.comnet.co.nz> References: <35520e60.1701739@news.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 202.36.226.1 X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Tom Elam (telam@iquest.net) wrote in alt.folklore.computers: > >now that the hardware could handle it. (Meanwhile Steve Jobs had left > >Apple and made another buzzword-compliant system with a great GUI, > >perfectly supplemental to that of the Mac). NT had the same interface as > >Windows. MS then began the development of Windows 4.0, which was to hack > >the buzzwords from NT on top of DOS with a hybrid Mac/Win/NeXT interface > >(which would also be grafted onto NT 4.0). Win4 eventually became Windows > >93, 94, 95, and almost 96. All the time Apple had been developing Copland, > Oh, come now. Win 95 was launched in early July, it was nowhere close to Win > 96. The 950 gold release was actually available in April - if you knew > where to get it. I am still running that good old 950, patched a few times, > today. Windows 95 was launched on August 24th, 1995. (A Thursday, I believe) The "early July" versions were "pre-release" Beta/Gamma versions. -- All email sent to my inca address will fail, however I can now be contacted via an intermediary : gem at tos pl net. I would like to apologise to the genuine respondents that this may inconvenience. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!news.mindspring.net!news.mindspring.com!jason From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 6 May 1998 01:20:43 GMT Organization: I don't think so Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <6imn70$nkm$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inabp$3of$7@ns3.vrx.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip237.buffalo3.ny.pub-ip.psi.net X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.6 UNIX) Steve Hix wrote: >The Apple///, on the other hand, loaded the character set into RAM, >which you could change on the fly. It wasn't there, either, but it was >leaning in that direction. The //e could do some of the same stuff, >and there was at least one graphics mode that changed characters on >the fly to permit a similar effect. Hell, you could do that on an Atari 400. -- If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more "correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify that kind of performance loss. -- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news.sprintisp.com!sprintisp!drifterusa From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 01:46:54 -0500 Organization: KAOS Lines: 12 Message-ID: <199805060146541749471@sdn-ts-002txhousp05.dialsprint.net> References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <35520e60.1701739@news.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.133.129.40 X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.2.1 Tom Elam wrote: > Oh, come now. Win 95 was launched in early July, it was nowhere close to Win > 96. I thought it was August 24, 1995 -- almost 2/3 into the year. I know I was surprised at the time that they hadn't named it "96" to coincide with the new automobile model year. -- John Bauer ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 02:01:57 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 194 Message-ID: <354FA875.BE6849D5@ccw.ch.remove> References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.27 i486) Forrest Cameranesi wrote: > > Here's what I know of the story, corrections welcome: OK, I will try it. Of course my version may also be wrong. I am basing it on "A History of Personal Workstations", Adele Goldberg (Ed), ACM Press and on multiple magazine articles (mostly in 198x Byte issues). > Jef Raskin was the creative genious who came up with the idea. He wrote > his thesis on it, called "The Quick Draw System". I can't remember what > his involvement with PARC was, AFAIK he visited Xerox in the Alto days and got the idea from there. The original easy computer idea at Xerox was Alan Kays Dynabook (he called the Alto the Interim Dynabook). > but suffice it to say he came up with the > idea for both Apple and Xerox. But Apple and Xerox did two very different > systems. According to above book the original Xerox system (Alto, 1973) had no native GUI, nor an all encompassing environment. Rather it DOS-like had an simple program loader as its OS. Remember that we are talking about an 5.883MHz, microcoded, 64kWord*16bit memory machine, with the bitmapped video (606x808, 1bpp) coming from main memory (like todays UMA) costing 30kWord and 2/3 machine cycles. > Xerox had no overlapping windows, the mouse was used for > graphical manipulation of text (drag-select, copy, paste) and for clicking > icons, which instead of representing files as they do in most current GUIs > (all of the ones I've seen , at least), they represented actions to > execute, similar to how menus are used nowadays. Each Alto application had its own interface. The Bravo text editor used Emacs-like (or did Emacs copy it) horizontal splitting. Markup draw program used full screen with pop up menues. Smalltalk, the only GUI, used "real" windows. Cedar on the Star (1980) had screen splitting (no floating windows) and MS Program Manager like icons for programs (not files) as an bar at the bottom. (I am describing this from an set of photos in above book). > Jef, when working at > Apple, wanted to make the graphical computer of his dreams. Steve Jobs > didn't like the idea. So Jef told him to go to Xerox PARC and look at > their GUI system, to see how graphics could help in a computer. Steve and > several Aple engineers went and payed a pricy fee for a quick hands-off > tour of Xerox' system (either the Star or the Alto, I always get those two > confused). Steve saw and liked the idea of graphics in a computer, so > Apple started researching the best ways to implement it. AFAIK Steve went a lot later to Xerox and saw the Star/Cedar, an lot more complex system than the Alto. He tried to copy that as the Lisa. Later after setbacks he took over the Mac project and Lisaified it, transforming it completely. > Eventually they > came up with a desktop on which icons of disks and a trash can rested, and > when these icons were double-clicked (using a single button mouse, as > studies showed multiple clicks with one button was better than the > combination-clicking-of-many-buttons approach Xerox had used) The trashcan and the one button mouse were genuine to Apple. These are the 2 parts Microsoft ended up being forbidden to do in the law mess with Apple. On all other points Apple lost. > From this basic concept came two different > approaches: the Macintosh and the Lisa (both code names originally). The > Macintosh was Jef's baby, a simple graphical computing appliance that > anybody could use, in one small box that sat on your desk. As for Jef Raskins ideas: when he left Apple in 1982 after Jobs took over Mac he founded an firm called Information Appliance. There he wrote Swyftware for the Apple II. He later designed custom Hardware (68000, 256k RAM, 720k floppy, simple (typewriter) keyboard with 2 "leap" keys (essentialy incremental search in both directions), no mouse, no graphics, no icons. This was marketed as the Canon Cat into the typewriter replacement market. All data was stored as one large text scroll with separator lines (hints of Newton or PalmPilot?), no files (all RAM was written to floppy in one stream, formatting at the same time) and for programming sections of Forth could be inserted into the text, then selected and press Run the key. (According to Byte Oct 87, page 121) > Meanwhile, several others were working on graphical systems as well. Back > in these days, MS was friends with Apple, they were a big developer for > the Apple II and many of their top-selling products today came out on the I know of no MS product for Apple II, even the ROM Basic was not from MS. > system (I have no details on this. Anyone?). So MS took Apple's prototype > Mac they had (they were Mac developers, afterall) and hacked together a > pseudo-clone of it on top of DOS, including very similar calls and such > (so I'm told. I'm not a programmer). Actually Charles Simonji (spelling?) who wrote Bravo came to MS and there wrote first Word and then was project leader for Windows 1.x. So MS copied directly from Xerox (they actually had an Star, so Xerox did get something from them :-)). > I also have a vague (sp?) memory of > them buying out "VisiSoft", but that may be innacurate. No. The Visicalc people (not VisiSoft, but I can not remember the real name) were bought by Lotus, to get rid of competition for 1-2-3. > The resulting > product was called Program Manager or some such, and later evolved into > Windows. Program Manager only appeared in Windows 3.0. Anyone still remember that awfull MS DOS Exectutive in per 3.0 Windows? Are you perhaps thinking of IBMs TopView? Or Quaterdecks DesqView? > Apple sued, and for a reason I don't recall, lost (although > everyone - well, almost everyone - acknowledges that MS did steal the GUI > idea from Apple). See above: they were given exclusive rights to the trashcan (thats why Windows has none), and to the one button mouse (that is why the MS mouse has two). > It took three full version number upgrades of Windows to > finally be usable, during which time the Mac had evolved various features > such as multitasking, a useable desktop, and thousands of apps. What multitasking? That is the one thing where Macs really suck. Even compared to Windows 3.0!!! > now that the hardware could handle it. (Meanwhile Steve Jobs had left > Apple and made another buzzword-compliant system with a great GUI, > perfectly supplemental to that of the Mac). He was thrown out over his plans for the Mac III. The result was that he made the NeXT, Unix system with the nicest* GUI to ever grace an screen. BTW: I am ex-president of the Swiss NeXT User Group (nice.ch). * OK, window maker and gnome for X/Linux ist even nicer. > Windows. MS then began the development of Windows 4.0, which was to hack > the buzzwords from NT on top of DOS with a hybrid Mac/Win/NeXT interface > (which would also be grafted onto NT 4.0). Win4 eventually became Windows > 93, 94, 95, and almost 96. Win95 is definitely a clone of the NeXTstep look. The only good bit of Win95 :-). > Now, Apple bought back Steve's > second baby, NeXT, and is making a cross-platform > (Mac/Intel/MacOS/Win32/Unix), buzzword-compliant (Mach) NeXTstep has had an Mach 2.5 Kernal under it since version 0.x. It has been long ported to i386, HP-PA, Sparc. Rhapsody actualy makes the long overdue step to Mach 3.0. > system with an interface combining the best from Mac and NeXT Rhapsody is the NeXTstep port for PPC (NeXT had a cancelled PPC project) with an Mac emulator thrown in for backwards compatibility. I at work (ethz.ch) have an mixed Mac/SGI environment and am thinking of using Rhapsody to unify Mac and Unix. > without any of that MS > inconsistant inelegant nonintuitive MDI shit. Yes, MDI is crap. Retch. If it weren't for the crashes I would call this the most losing feature on Windows. BTW it came from avoiding an truly integrated desktop out of fear of Apple. -- private: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ office: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ Lawyers are killing society, perhaps we should return the favour. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!serv.hinet.net!spring.edu.tw!feeder.seed.net.tw!news.seed.net.tw!!dski From: Dan Strychalski Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 6 May 1998 04:38:21 GMT Organization: Cameo Communications, Inc. Lines: 24 Message-ID: <6iopft$khi@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.72.104.4 Originator: dski@ Forrest Cameranesi (forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net) wrote -- > Like many others have pointed out, IBM didn't intend for there to be any > clones, but they did publish specs on their PC design so others could make > additions and peripherals for it. This was the hole that let Compaq and > later others clone IBM's design, and IBM took a big hit from that. [...] I don't pretend to know what IBM did or did not intend or expect. For what it's worth -- and given the source, it ain't worth bug poop to me -- I offer: . . . GATES: See, the contract with IBM called for us to do all this work on the design of the machine and all this software. We didn't get paid that much -- the total was something like $186,000 -- but we knew there were going to be clones of the IBM PC. We structured that original contract to allow them. It was a key point in our negotiations. . . . From _10/2/95 BILL GATES & PAUL ALLEN TALK_, Dan Strychalski dski at cameonet, cameo, com, tw Apologies for the anti-spam devices and non-threading newsreader. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newshub.northeast.verio.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!serv.hinet.net!spring.edu.tw!feeder.seed.net.tw!news.seed.net.tw!!dski From: Dan Strychalski Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 6 May 1998 07:00:44 GMT Organization: Cameo Communications, Inc. Lines: 7 Message-ID: <6ip1qs$t2h@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.72.104.4 Originator: dski@ John Bauer (drifterusa@sprintmail.com) wrote -- > I thought it was August 24, 1995 -- almost 2/3 into the year. [...] It was. That's why I got my wife a computer on August 23, 1995. Dan ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!sun4nl!bullseye.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!unclebob From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Wed, 06 May 98 07:43:33 GMT Message-ID: <894440613snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <6imn70$nkm$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inabp$3of$7@ns3.vrx.net> Reply-To: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-User: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-Path: post-20.mail.demon.net!post.mail.demon.net!tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 894455482 4790 unclebob tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.29 Lines: 18 In article gierkeNOSPAM@delaware.infi.net "Patrick William Gierke" writes: > never use Caps Lock as my run key, and to never, ever, leave a > single Bob alive. -- Oath of the Vidmaster ^^^ I don't like this game, can we play a different one? :*) Uncle Bob Billing -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 07:56:54 -0400 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Message-ID: References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354F195C.48813FD8@milestonerdl.com> X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.183.91.124 Lines: 46 Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!stns.news.pipex.net!hose.news.pipex.net!grot.news.pipex.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!btnet-peer!btnet!newsfeed.internetmci.com!205.252.116.205!howland.erols.net!news.pagesat.net!news.dca.net!news.dol.net!joe.ragosta In article <354F195C.48813FD8@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote: > Joe Ragosta wrote: > > > In article , > > atticus@mindspring.com (Andy Walton) wrote: > > > They didn't pay a fee, exactly -- they allowed Xerox to buy several > > > thousand shares of Apple, which was not publicly traded at the time. > > > > That's a fee. In legal terms, any consideration is enough to make the > > contract binding. Allowing them to buy stock at below its fair value is a > > form of consideration > > The sources I've read in PUBLISHED books show a different story. > (It's called research and facts...perhaps you've heard of that Joe?) > > Documentation of how no one else wanted Steve Jobs in their group. > Documentation of how Jobs DIDNT want to go to PARC, until pushed by Bill/Jef > How PARC was an open lab for years. > How Jobs lied to the Macintosh group about the name. > How the Xerox investment was a PRIVATE investment, BEFORE the company became > public. (thus blowing yet another hole in what Ragosta presents as FACT) > How Jobs tried to kill the Macintosh. > > > And how Jef Raskin (The documented creator of the Macintosh) believed what was seen > was the shaping of what became Lisa/Macintosh, yet was not copied. And all but one of these arguments are complete strawman arguments. I never made a statement about the history of Jobs or Raskin or any of that stuff. I'm just not interested. You can lash out all you want, but you're directing it at the wrong person. I'M JUST NOT INTERESTED IN WHO DID WHAT AND WHEN. The only statement I made was that Xerox received a fee for what Apple got. That part is clearly true. I then stated that the fee was the right to buy stock below its fair value. That part might not be accurate since it's from memory only. I also don't believe it's very important. Xerox was paid--regardless of the form the payment took. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!204.156.128.20!news1.best.com!ns3.vrx.net!not-for-mail From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 6 May 1998 08:20:55 GMT Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <6ip6h7$oum$1@ns3.vrx.net> References: <6inabp$3of$7@ns3.vrx.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mothra.oaai.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.9.4 Beta(i) Cc: english@primenet.com In "Lawson English" claimed: > Raskin explicitly told me this on the telephone. I've heard it from others, > also. The Lisa actually started a month or two before the Mac did, from > what I've rea, but it didn't get a GUI until AFTER the Jobs came back from > PARC. The question is whether or not the _Mac_ had one before Jobs went to PARC. > The Mac was always meant to use a pointing device of some kind. Using > bitmapped graphics (not just text) requires some kind of pointing device to > handle it efficiently and easily. But again this _could_ be a logical decendant of SRI's work, it was both graphical and mouse based, but definitely not a GUI. > The Canon Cat I don't know this machine, what is it? Maury ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!204.156.128.20!news1.best.com!ns3.vrx.net!not-for-mail From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 6 May 1998 08:22:20 GMT Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton. Lines: 15 Message-ID: <6ip6js$oum$2@ns3.vrx.net> References: <6imn70$nkm$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inabp$3of$7@ns3.vrx.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mothra.oaai.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.9.4 Beta(i) Cc: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org In Jason S. claimed: > >The Apple///, on the other hand, loaded the character set into RAM, > >which you could change on the fly. It wasn't there, either, but it was > >leaning in that direction. The //e could do some of the same stuff, > >and there was at least one graphics mode that changed characters on > >the fly to permit a similar effect. > > Hell, you could do that on an Atari 400. And the Atari was bitmapped as well - if the definition is that you could refer to the pixel at x,y. And it had a pointing device, all sorts of them in fact. Still not a GUI though. Maury ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!nntp.abs.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter0!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 6 May 1998 12:33:01 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 65 Message-ID: References: <6ip6h7$oum$1@ns3.vrx.net> X-Posted-By: @206.165.43.51 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/alt.folklore.computers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maury Markowitz said: >In "Lawson English" claimed: >> Raskin explicitly told me this on the telephone. I've heard it from others, >> also. The Lisa actually started a month or two before the Mac did, from >> what I've rea, but it didn't get a GUI until AFTER the Jobs came back from >> PARC. > > The question is whether or not the _Mac_ had one before Jobs went to >PARC. > According to Raskin, the Mac was designed *from the start* to have a bitmapped display and pointing device. "It makes no sense to have bitmapped graphics without a pointing device." Now, as to the details of how this pointing device would interact with the display, I don't know. >> The Mac was always meant to use a pointing device of some kind. Using >> bitmapped graphics (not just text) requires some kind of pointing device >to >> handle it efficiently and easily. > > But again this _could_ be a logical decendant of SRI's work, it was both >graphical and mouse based, but definitely not a GUI. > Perhaps. I don't know what interface elements were licensed from PARC. I *do* know that Raskin acknowledges that some were. Others were developed independently of PARC, such as drop-down menus. Even though prototyped drop-down menus were being experimented with at PARC, Raskin claims that Atkinson never saw a demo of those [from memory of our discussions and things by him that I've read] and came up with the idea independently. Raskin [Atkinson?] came up with the idea of drag and drop. With the interface that Jobs and Atkinson saw, you would click on a print file, move the mouse and click on the print icon. One or the other showed that one could more easily click-drag-release than click-move-click. >> The Canon Cat > > I don't know this machine, what is it? Some kind of Canon word processor. By all accounts, it was a very slick word processor, but Raskin managed to add some design details that went beyond what Canon marketed it as. You'd have to ask him for more info. He said that the full capabilties of the Canon Cat were more in line with what he had in mind for the Mac, but that everyone assumed that the marketed features were all that was available and that that he had meant that he only wanted a text-only, non-GUI word processor unit. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter0!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 6 May 1998 12:34:00 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: X-Posted-By: @206.165.43.51 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/alt.folklore.computers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe Ragosta said: >The only statement I made was that Xerox received a fee for what Apple >got. That part is clearly true. >I then stated that the fee was the right to buy stock below its fair >value. That part might not be accurate since it's from memory only. I also >don't believe it's very important. Xerox was paid--regardless of the form >the payment took. I believe that it was the right to buy stock -either options, or stock itself, several years before Apple and an IPO on Nasdaq. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!ubnnews.unisource.ch!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter.cosy.sbg.ac.at!cosy.sbg.ac.at!Cabal.CESspool!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed.wli.net!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter0!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 6 May 1998 12:37:01 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: X-Posted-By: @206.165.43.51 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/alt.folklore.computers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ralph Wade Phillips said: >ORIGINALLY, the owner's manual for the Apple ][ (the "Red Book") >included such nicities as the logic Woz used to develope the 16(!!) card >slots (8 in original production), the monitor ROMs listing, and schematics. >Most boards, until the middle to late 80's, that Apple sold or designed for >the ][ family included such nicities as ROM listings and schematics in the >owner's manual (two prime examples are the 13sector disk interface card >and >the much beloved / maligned Super Serial Card). According to what I have read, the engineers that designed the IBM PC were mandated to copy the most sucessful desktop design, so they analyzed the Apple ][ quite extensively. Rumor has it that it was their preferred machine to use, also. What is ironic is that the Apple ][ was based on a hardware design BY a hobbyist, FOR hobbyists. It certainly wasn't be best possible business/home design that they could have come up with. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news1.best.com!ns3.vrx.net!not-for-mail From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 6 May 1998 15:22:30 GMT Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <6ipv7m$d3u$3@ns3.vrx.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: mothra.oaai.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.9.4 Beta(i) Cc: english@primenet.com In "Lawson English" claimed: > What is ironic is that the Apple ][ was based on a hardware design BY a > hobbyist, FOR hobbyists. It certainly wasn't be best possible business/home > design that they could have come up with. At the time though, who knows? Of all of them I'd say the PET or Peanut were the best "home" designs from an industrial standpoint, but they were both failures for their own reasons. After that I'd say it had to be the Atari's, notably the early ones with their cast-Al interiors. However, technical superiority again proved not to be the real factor and all of these machines had smaller markets. As the the very early days the market _was_ hobbiests so I think it was good in that respect, later machines even from Apple (like the IIc) seemed pretty well designed. Maury ###### Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!207.207.0.26!nntp.giganews.com!uunet!in4.uu.net!xyzzy!nntp From: "Ralph Wade Phillips" Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) X-Nntp-Posting-Host: 129.172.150.50 Message-ID: X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Lines: 35 Sender: nntp@news.boeing.com (Boeing NNTP News Access) Organization: The Boeing Company X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354f1f6e.4323477@ Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 15:36:39 GMT Steve Hix wrote in message ... >In article <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net>, evandro@geocities.com >(Evandro Menezes) wrote: > >> In , >> forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote: >> >> >So it's a combination of luck, leaching off others, and general dirty >> >tricks that lead to Windows being the dominant graphical OS, and >> >eventually the dominant OS ever. >> >> One must not forget the hard part of the story: Apple hardware became >> closed, monopolized and expensive. Like the Apple ][, the PC was >> open, competitive and cheap. > >Other than having expansion slots, the Apple][ line were never "open" >particularly. Documentation of OS entry points was, often, included >with the system documentation, but not always. It was also available >for the Mac, but not for "free". > ORIGINALLY, the owner's manual for the Apple ][ (the "Red Book") included such nicities as the logic Woz used to develope the 16(!!) card slots (8 in original production), the monitor ROMs listing, and schematics. Most boards, until the middle to late 80's, that Apple sold or designed for the ][ family included such nicities as ROM listings and schematics in the owner's manual (two prime examples are the 13sector disk interface card and the much beloved / maligned Super Serial Card). RwP ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!howland.erols.net!wnfeed!204.127.130.5!worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: thlayli@usa.net (Thlayli) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 16:36:09 GMT Organization: Watership Down, Ltd. Lines: 13 Distribution: world Message-ID: <6iq3km$bj0@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.3.143 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 atticus@mindspring.com (Andy Walton) wrote: >The GUI may have been the Mac's greatest innovation, but it was PostScript >that gave it the niche it needed to survive -- the Mac's most persistent >niche to this day. Not PostScript itself, but rather the application which used it - PageMaker. -- Thlayli thlayli@usa.net http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Sands/5932/ This message printed on 100% recycled electrons (40% post-consumer) ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: thlayli@usa.net (Thlayli) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 16:36:10 GMT Organization: Watership Down, Ltd. Lines: 28 Distribution: world Message-ID: <6iq3ko$bj0@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354FA875.BE6849D5@ccw.ch.remove> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.3.143 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) wrote: >In article <354FA875.BE6849D5@ccw.ch.remove>, Neil Franklin > wrote: >> Forrest Cameranesi wrote: > >> > Meanwhile, several others were working on graphical systems as well. Back >> > in these days, MS was friends with Apple, they were a big developer for >> > the Apple II and many of their top-selling products today came out on the >> >> I know of no MS product for Apple II, even the ROM Basic was not from >> MS. > >Integer BASIC was originally developed by Apple (Woz). > >Applesoft was derived from Microsoft BASIC, IIRC. Applesoft was Microsoft 6502 BASIC with extensions for accessing the Apple II's color graphics capabilities. MS also sold the Softcard, an expansion card with a Z-80 chip on it that could make an Apple run CP/M. -- Thlayli thlayli@usa.net http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Sands/5932/ This message printed on 100% recycled electrons (40% post-consumer) ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!peer.news.zetnet.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news-lond.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!141.211.144.13!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gumby!news.cs.hope.edu!news From: root@odo.dusknet.dyn.ml.org (The root of all evil) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 6 May 1998 18:48:29 -0400 Organization: Dusk To Dawn Computing, Inc. Message-ID: <6iqpbt$2pn$1@odo.dusknet.dyn.ml.org> References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <354e48b8.0@aedes.isd.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ts1-236.grnet.com Lines: 22 In article <354e48b8.0@aedes.isd.net>, Scott Stevens wrote: >Forrest Cameranesi wrote in message ... > >>Apple, wanted to make the graphical computer of his dreams. Steve Jobs >>didn't like the idea. So Jef told him to go to Xerox PARC and look at >>their GUI system, to see how graphics could help in a computer. Steve and >>several Aple engineers went and payed a pricy fee for a quick hands-off >>tour of Xerox' system > >It's my understanding that this "pricy fee" is the only payment Apple mad to >Xerox for adopting the GUI. Can anybody corraborate this? I've heard more >than once somebody claim that Apple "paid" to use the GUI. Is there a >liscence agreement or contract showing said payment? Actually, in one of those PBS specials (The Nerd Revolution or something like that), it was described that Xerox's payment was about $15 million in nonvoting stock. Needless to say, everyone was happy with the deal...perhaps until the Mac became so popular, thanks to Scully's method of selling tons of Macs. Jobs may have been the driving force getting it out the door, but Scully made it fly. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!feeder.news.azstarnet.com!reader1.news.azstarnet.com!news From: bill_h Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 18:49:48 -0700 Organization: Starnet Lines: 21 Message-ID: <3551133C.33D0@azstarnet.com> References: Reply-To: bill_h@azstarnet.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 169.197.30.19 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win16; I) Lawson English wrote: ..... > According to what I have read, the engineers that designed the IBM PC were > mandated to copy the most sucessful desktop design, so they analyzed the > Apple ][ quite extensively. They were competing with the group that did the Displaywriter and also the group that built the 5100 Desktop "Portable" machines. The Displaywriter used an 8086, while the 5100 used TTL and proprietary stuff but no microprocessor. The biggest challenge was making the thing CHEAP. And, the inside of an Apple sure LOOKED cheap! > Rumor has it that it was their preferred > machine to use, also. Somehow, I doubt that. But this is "folklore", after all...... ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!news.iastate.edu!rhawkins From: rhawkins@iastate.edu (Rick Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 6 May 1998 20:44:22 GMT Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa USA Lines: 27 Message-ID: <6iqi36$tb7$1@news.iastate.edu> References: <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <1334.429T556T6833585@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pv2086.vincent.iastate.edu In article <1334.429T556T6833585@sky.bus.com>, Charlie Gibbs wrote: >In article ralphp@techie.com >(Ralph Wade Phillips) writes: >> I've said it before, and I'll say it again - Microsoft is to >>software what McDonald's is to food ... >I'm often tempted myself to compare M$ to McDonald's. Indeed, in >a lot of ways it's a good analogy: both create products that are >standard, readily available, and adopted by millions. Not the >greatest quality, but consistent. But to go any farther wouldn't >be fair to McDonald's. Otherwise, many people would get food >poisoning, and McD's would deny it's bacterial ("That's not a bug, >it's a feature!"). People would line up for the latest burger >style, and some would later line up at the nearest hospital to >get their stomachs pumped. For some reason, this would be accepted >as normal. OK, so , taking food poisioning into account, Jack in the Box would be a better comparison than McDonald's :) -- R E HAWKINS rhawkins@iastate.edu These opinions will not be those of ISU until they pay my retainer. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!ais.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!bulb.garlic.com!stevehix From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 20:46:36 -0700 Organization: South Valley Internet Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip66.safemail.com X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.1 In article , "Ralph Wade Phillips" wrote: > Steve Hix wrote in message ... > >(Evandro Menezes) wrote: > >> One must not forget the hard part of the story: Apple hardware became > >> closed, monopolized and expensive. Like the Apple ][, the PC was > >> open, competitive and cheap. > >Other than having expansion slots, the Apple][ line were never "open" > >particularly. Documentation of OS entry points was, often, included > >with the system documentation, but not always. It was also available > >for the Mac, but not for "free". > ORIGINALLY, the owner's manual for the Apple ][ (the "Red Book") > included such nicities as the logic Woz used to develope the 16(!!) card > slots (8 in original production), the monitor ROMs listing, and schematics. Yep, they *literally* went around and scooped up various documents from various desks and included them in the Red Book. The system schematic was particularly nice. Notice how many different output sources got used, even electrostatic printer output. > Most boards, until the middle to late 80's, that Apple sold or designed for > the ][ family included such nicities as ROM listings and schematics in the > owner's manual (two prime examples are the 13sector disk interface card and > the much beloved / maligned Super Serial Card). Thank you. (The SSC manual was one of the first hardware manuals I worked on.) Convinced them to let me include the firmware listing for the //c Reference before I left Apple. That sort of thing wasn't an unmixed blessing, though. For one thing, it encouraged some people to use parts of the system other than "blessed" entry points. If (when) code was reworked, you stood a good chance of your program breaking because you used some bit of code that ended up getting changed on later machines, or just later revs of the same machine. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!ais.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!bulb.garlic.com!stevehix From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 20:48:35 -0700 Organization: South Valley Internet Lines: 16 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354FA875.BE6849D5@ccw.ch.remove> <6iq3ko$bj0@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip66.safemail.com X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.1 In article <6iq3ko$bj0@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>, thlayli@usa.net (Thlayli) wrote: > stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) wrote: > >Applesoft was derived from Microsoft BASIC, IIRC. > Applesoft was Microsoft 6502 BASIC with extensions for accessing the Apple > II's color graphics capabilities. > MS also sold the Softcard, an expansion card with a Z-80 chip on it that could > make an Apple run CP/M. Had one of those, too. Needed to run a "serious" database application. Glad I never bought the memory card that MS "bundled" with their BASIC for S-100 machines. It was known to not work reliably... ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 21:16:47 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3550B71F.5264191@ccw.ch.remove> References: <6imn70$nkm$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inabp$3of$7@ns3.vrx.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.27 i486) Patrick William Gierke wrote: > > over the years. For example, the original version of the Mac system > software did not have small icons for list views. It did not have the zoom > widget. It did not have the windowshade widget. Didn't have a multitasking > finder (multifinder came w/ system 5). It did not support drag and drop > document opening.It could fit onto a 400k floppy w/ penty o' space. There The original Mac OS was in ROMs, not on floppy. IIRC the Mac128 and Mac512 had 64k ROM, the Plus upped this to 128. The floppy only contained apps, fonts, user files and the desktop. -- private: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ office: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ Lawyers are killing society, perhaps we should return the favour. ###### Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 21:33:24 -0400 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Message-ID: References: <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net> <354fb3d5.0@aedes.isd.net> <3552f43c.731045@news.nabi.net> X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.3.5 NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.196.78.107 Lines: 18 Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!ais.net!uunet!in4.uu.net!news.dca.net!news.dol.net!joe.ragosta In article <3552f43c.731045@news.nabi.net>, evandro@geocities.com (Evandro Menezes) wrote: > Unfortunately, nowadays some of the companies that grew thanks to the > PC phenomenon - read Intel and Microsoft -, have the same monopolist > aim as Apple has: be the single source for hardware and software. > > I just hope that AMD, Cyrix, IDT, Linux, BSD and BeOS keep us free > from their stronghold! :-) You're missing the best chance to break the monopoly--Rhapsody. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!news.cc.ukans.edu!not-for-mail From: "R. Kirk McPike" Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 21:36:19 -0500 Organization: University of Kansas Computing Services Lines: 43 Message-ID: <6ir6ml$4pi$1@news.cc.ukans.edu> References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <354e48b8.0@aedes.isd.net> <6iqpbt$2pn$1@odo.dusknet.dyn.ml.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: kuts8p01.cc.ukans.edu X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 The root of all evil wrote in message <6iqpbt$2pn$1@odo.dusknet.dyn.ml.org>... >In article <354e48b8.0@aedes.isd.net>, >Scott Stevens wrote: > >>Forrest Cameranesi wrote in message ... >> >>>Apple, wanted to make the graphical computer of his dreams. Steve Jobs >>>didn't like the idea. So Jef told him to go to Xerox PARC and look at >>>their GUI system, to see how graphics could help in a computer. Steve and >>>several Aple engineers went and payed a pricy fee for a quick hands-off >>>tour of Xerox' system >> >>It's my understanding that this "pricy fee" is the only payment Apple mad to >>Xerox for adopting the GUI. Can anybody corraborate this? I've heard more >>than once somebody claim that Apple "paid" to use the GUI. Is there a >>liscence agreement or contract showing said payment? > >Actually, in one of those PBS specials (The Nerd Revolution or something like >that), it was described that Xerox's payment was about $15 million in >nonvoting stock. Needless to say, everyone was happy with the deal...perhaps >until the Mac became so popular, thanks to Scully's method of selling tons >of Macs. Jobs may have been the driving force getting it out the door, but >Scully made it fly. He also made the two decisions that prevented Apple from taking over the world: he priced the Macintosh 128k at $2,499, instead of Jobs' suggested $1,999. That made the Mac a thousand dollars more expensive than the average IBM clone. Not as bad as the $25,000 Star or the $9,999 Lisa, but still, not priced right "for the rest of us." He also refused Bill Gates' 1985 offer to have Microsoft help Apple create a large Macintosh clone market by licensing the Mac OS to Motorola, Northern Telecom, and AT&T. That, more than the above, sealed the Macs fate as the "second platform." Kirk ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!news.efn.org!not-for-mail From: "S. L. Wellborn" Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 22:40:04 -0700 Organization: Oregon Public Networking Lines: 9 Message-ID: <6irh8a$613$1@haus.efn.org> References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354faf31.0@aedes.isd.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak-ip86.efn.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Scott Stevens wrote in message <354faf31.0@aedes.isd.net>... >but organic cheese made by a whole food cooperative (i.e. Linux). (I've >stretched the cheese analogy here a bit far...) Is this where someones supposed to insert the "who cut the cheese" joke? ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail From: rinaqeb@trbpvgvrf.pbz (Evandro Menezes) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 23:53:02 GMT Organization: E&R Lines: 36 Message-ID: <3556f7cc.1642451@news.nabi.net> References: <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net> <354fb3d5.0@aedes.isd.net> Reply-To: evandro@geocities.com (Evandro Menezes) NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.6.184.143 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 894498990 7FE11U3.SB88FD006C usenet76.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 In <354fb3d5.0@aedes.isd.net>, "Scott Stevens" wrote: >Joe Ragosta wrote in message ... >>In article <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net>, evandro@geocities.com >>(Evandro Menezes) wrote: >> >>> One must not forget the hard part of the story: Apple hardware became >>> closed, monopolized and expensive. >> >>I suppose you mean like Slot 1? Or Slot 2? Or the two different variants >>of mobile Pentium II mounting? > >I think he means socket 7 (for which four(?) vendors make x86 chips), and >the x86 architecture in general. It's true, one could say, that Intel is >becoming more Mac-like with the Pentium II chips. When you can't compete in >an open-standards market, run away down a proprietary alley. I was referring to the PC's origins. Unfortunately, nowadays some of the companies that grew thanks to the PC phenomenon - read Intel and Microsoft -, have the same monopolist aim as Apple has: be the single source for hardware and software. IBM tried the same with Micro Channel PS/2 and OS/2, but it was fortunately too late. Isn't it ironic that the same companies that kept the PC open now want to take control of it and are managing to be more or less succesful at that? I just hope that AMD, Cyrix, IDT, Linux, BSD and BeOS keep us free from their stronghold! :-) ____________________________________________________________ Evandro Menezes Austin, TX USA Tel:+1-512-502-9199 ICQ:7957253 mailto:evandro@geocities.com http://over.to/evandro ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) References: <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <1334.429T556T6833585@sky.bus.com> <6iqi36$tb7$1@news.iastate.edu> Organization: Wizvax Communications, Troy, NY. USA From: multics@wizvax.wizvax.net (Richard Shetron) NNTP-Posting-Host: wizvax.wizvax.net Message-ID: <35510477.0@news.wizvax.net> Date: 7 May 98 00:46:47 GMT Lines: 31 Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!ulowell.uml.edu!newsfeed.wizvax.net!news.wizvax.net!wizvax.wizvax.net!multics In article <6iqi36$tb7$1@news.iastate.edu>, Rick Hawkins wrote: >In article <1334.429T556T6833585@sky.bus.com>, >Charlie Gibbs wrote: >>In article ralphp@techie.com >>(Ralph Wade Phillips) writes: > >>> I've said it before, and I'll say it again - Microsoft is to >>>software what McDonald's is to food ... > >>I'm often tempted myself to compare M$ to McDonald's. Indeed, in >>a lot of ways it's a good analogy: both create products that are >>standard, readily available, and adopted by millions. Not the >>greatest quality, but consistent. But to go any farther wouldn't >>be fair to McDonald's. Otherwise, many people would get food >>poisoning, and McD's would deny it's bacterial ("That's not a bug, >>it's a feature!"). People would line up for the latest burger >>style, and some would later line up at the nearest hospital to >>get their stomachs pumped. For some reason, this would be accepted >>as normal. > >OK, so , taking food poisioning into account, Jack in the Box would be a >better comparison than McDonald's :) > >-- >R E HAWKINS >rhawkins@iastate.edu I Don't think even Jack in the Box is a fair comparison, the quality is still too high there then at MS. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail From: jk@langley.softwright.co.uk Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 08:42:15 -0600 Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 18 Message-ID: <6isdnn$luc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <6imn70$nkm$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inabp$3of$7@ns3.vrx.net> #1/1 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.129.107.143 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu May 07 13:42:15 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.0; Windows NT) In article #1/1, gierkeNOSPAM@delaware.infi.net (Patrick William Gierke) wrote: > > [Mac System nostalgia] > Didn't have a multitasking finder (multifinder came w/ system 5). When did Switcher first appear? That was quite fun... > The only way to install fonts and desk > accessories (remember those..?) was with a special application. Ah yes, Font/DA Mover. Horrible clunky thing, that was. -- James Kew -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter0!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 7 May 1998 14:30:01 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: X-Posted-By: @206.165.43.45 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/alt.folklore.computers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Munged Email Munged Email said: >The Mac was supposed to be an appliance. In other words, you just plug it >in and turn it on just like a stove, microwave, refrigeratior, etc. The so-called "Toaster Mac." However, you still have to get bread in and out of a toaster for it to be useful. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### Date: 07 May 98 15:43:07 -0800 From: "Charlie Gibbs" Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) References: <1334.429T556T6833585@sky.bus.com> Message-ID: <1446.431T397T9433874@sky.bus.com> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Lines: 34 X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) NNTP-Posting-Host: news.skybus.com Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!204.244.4.2!news.westel.com!news.skybus.com!204.244.247.116 In article root@127.0.0.1 (Munged Email Munged Email) writes: >On 5 May 1998, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > >> I'm often tempted myself to compare M$ to McDonald's. Indeed, in >> a lot of ways it's a good analogy: both create products that are >> standard, readily available, and adopted by millions. Not the >> greatest quality, but consistent. But to go any farther wouldn't > >You left out "they both hire mostly from the bottom of the intelligence >chain." When I worked at McDonald's my cow orkers consisted of >recovering drug addicts, people who were forced off welfare, and >people who were getting their first jobs. Sounds a lot like MS's >hiring practices to me. Good point. They can't go hiring people whose experience might get in the way. Such people are too prone to asking embarrassing questions, and might have even developed a sense of integrity. Better to start with someone with a bright, shiny, brand-new empty brain which you can fill up with your own ideology. >> be fair to McDonald's. Otherwise, many people would get food >> poisoning, and McD's would deny it's bacterial ("That's not a bug, >> it's a feature!"). People would line up for the latest burger >> style, > >No, not burgers, happy meal toys and monopoly games. Thank you. I stand corrected. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### Date: 07 May 98 15:47:51 -0800 From: "Charlie Gibbs" Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) References: <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net> Message-ID: <676.431T2595T9476064@sky.bus.com> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Lines: 21 X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) NNTP-Posting-Host: news.skybus.com Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!204.244.4.2!news.westel.com!news.skybus.com!204.244.247.116 In article jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton) writes: >In article Munged Email Munged Email, root@127.0.0.1 says... > >> On Tue, 5 May 1998, Steve Hix wrote: >> The Mac was supposed to be an appliance. In other words, you >> just plug it in and turn it on just like a stove, microwave, >> refrigeratior, etc. > >Stove, Microwave, Refrigerator, Computer. > >Which one of these things doesn't belong, which one is not like the >other... Refrigerator. The others make things hot. (Ever seen a computer user with steam coming out his ears?) -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!news.ti.com!news.itg.ti.com!not-for-mail From: jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 16:01:48 -0500 Organization: Texas Instruments Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cna0391438.itg.ti.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10.940 In article Munged Email Munged Email, root@127.0.0.1 says... > On Tue, 5 May 1998, Steve Hix wrote: > The Mac was supposed to be an appliance. In other words, you just plug it > in and turn it on just like a stove, microwave, refrigeratior, etc. Stove, Microwave, Refrigerator, Computer. Which one of these things doesn't belong, which one is not like the other... -- A world without the Mac is a step closer to utopia. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!not-for-mail From: mschaef@cs.utexas.edu (Michael Alan Schaeffer) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 7 May 1998 16:25:22 -0500 Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin Lines: 15 Message-ID: <6it8s2$sb9$1@bark.cs.utexas.edu> References: <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> NNTP-Posting-Host: bark.cs.utexas.edu X-Trace: news.cs.utexas.edu 894576325 20739 mschaef 128.83.158.27 X-Complaints-To: usenet@cs.utexas.edu In article , Jason McNorton wrote: >Stove, Microwave, Refrigerator, Computer. >Which one of these things doesn't belong, which one is not like the >other... In a few years, When your MS Stove 1.0 commits a GPF and burns down your home, this may not seem so obvious. -- -Mike http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mschaef ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!209.89.75.15!News.Toronto.iSTAR.net!news.istar.net!feed.nntp.acc.ca!newsin.agis.net!agis!cancer.vividnet.com!denws01.mw.mediaone.net!news.gmi.edu!nova.kettering.edu!root From: Munged Email Munged Email Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 16:46:01 -0400 Organization: Kettering University (formerly GMI E&MI) - Flint MI Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <35520e60.1701739@news.newsguy.com> Reply-To: Munged Email Munged Email NNTP-Posting-Host: nova.kettering.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: lee1089@nova.kettering.edu In-Reply-To: <35520e60.1701739@news.newsguy.com> On Tue, 5 May 1998, Tom Elam wrote: > Oh, come now. Win 95 was launched in early July, it was nowhere close to Win > 96. The 950 gold release was actually available in April - if you knew > where to get it. I am still running that good old 950, patched a few times, > today. The official release date was Aug 24, just four months before the end of 1995. > WOW - spot on. Apple sat there for 3-4 years, watching Win 95. All they ever > did was release incremental upgrades - System 6, System 7, 7.1, 7.11, 7.2, up > to System 7.6.x, each one becoming less stable and making a lot of people very > unhappy. Also, don't forget that MS lagged over a year on their Mac release of > Word 6. That was a killer for many mixed IBM/Mac sites. First of all, System 7 was no where near an "incremental upgrade". There are more differnces between System 6 and System 7 than you can shake a stick at. True, past System 7.1 or so they began to get very unstable. However, 7.6 fixed a lot of problems and MacOS 8 is at least as stable as Windows 95. The Mac release of Word 6 was a catastrophe, both for Apple and for MS. People were switching over to WordPerfect, Nisus Writer, Write Now, and others in droves. It was so bad that MS had to offer a downgrade to 5.1. It was so slow, broken, and windows-like that it was obviously a "write once, compile many" type of program. MS seems to have repented, at least for the moment, with Office 98, but it's still a piece of MS crap. Apple seems to have learned from it's past mistakes and Rhapsody looks to make up for many past sins. --- The address in the from field is a spam blocking address, replying to that address will redirect your mail to your sysadmin. To send mail to me my username is lee1089 and my domain is kettering dot edu. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!208.133.72.20!news.megsinet.net!elnws02.ce.mediaone.net!24.131.1.12!denws01.mw.mediaone.net!news.gmi.edu!nova.kettering.edu!root From: Munged Email Munged Email Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 16:47:12 -0400 Organization: Kettering University (formerly GMI E&MI) - Flint MI Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <1334.429T556T6833585@sky.bus.com> Reply-To: Munged Email Munged Email NNTP-Posting-Host: nova.kettering.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: lee1089@nova.kettering.edu In-Reply-To: <1334.429T556T6833585@sky.bus.com> On 5 May 1998, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > In article ralphp@techie.com > (Ralph Wade Phillips) writes: > > > I've said it before, and I'll say it again - Microsoft is to > >software what McDonald's is to food ... > I'm often tempted myself to compare M$ to McDonald's. Indeed, in > a lot of ways it's a good analogy: both create products that are > standard, readily available, and adopted by millions. Not the > greatest quality, but consistent. But to go any farther wouldn't You left out "they both hire mostly from the bottom of the intelligence chain." When I worked at McDonald's my cow orkers consisted of recovering drug addicts, people who were forced off welfare, and people who were getting their first jobs. Sounds a lot like MS's hiring practices to me. > be fair to McDonald's. Otherwise, many people would get food > poisoning, and McD's would deny it's bacterial ("That's not a bug, > it's a feature!"). People would line up for the latest burger > style, No, not burgers, happy meal toys and monopoly games. > and some would later line up at the nearest hospital to > get their stomachs pumped. For some reason, this would be accepted > as normal. > > But even worse, McD's would add some sort of enzyme to their food > so that once you ate it, your digestive system would be transformed > in such a way that you wouldn't be able to digest anyone else's food > very well. It'd be cheaper to just continue eating Big Macs than > to go through the lengthy and expensive therapy needed to bring your > system back to normal. (Yes, this is a blatant rip-off of Pohl & > Kornbluth's "The Space Merchants".) --- The address in the from field is a spam blocking address, replying to that address will redirect your mail to your sysadmin. To send mail to me my username is lee1089 and my domain is kettering dot edu. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!24.128.1.125!chnws03.mediaone.net!24.131.1.12!denws01.mw.mediaone.net!news.gmi.edu!nova.kettering.edu!root From: Munged Email Munged Email Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 16:47:26 -0400 Organization: Kettering University (formerly GMI E&MI) - Flint MI Lines: 58 Message-ID: References: <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net> Reply-To: Munged Email Munged Email NNTP-Posting-Host: nova.kettering.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: lee1089@nova.kettering.edu In-Reply-To: On Tue, 5 May 1998, Steve Hix wrote: > In article <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net>, evandro@geocities.com > (Evandro Menezes) wrote: > > > In , > > forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote: > > > > >So it's a combination of luck, leaching off others, and general dirty > > >tricks that lead to Windows being the dominant graphical OS, and > > >eventually the dominant OS ever. > > > > One must not forget the hard part of the story: Apple hardware became > > closed, monopolized and expensive. Like the Apple ][, the PC was > > open, competitive and cheap. > > Other than having expansion slots, the Apple][ line were never "open" > particularly. Documentation of OS entry points was, often, included > with the system documentation, but not always. It was also available > for the Mac, but not for "free". > > Slots began appearing at least by the SE/30, and pretty much > without exception from the Mac II on. The Plus was the first Mac with SCSI, the SE (System Expansion) came with a processor direct slot and ADB. The Plus was also the first Mac with upgradable memory. The SE/30 was a later version of the SE with a 68030 processor (it actually should have been called the SEX like the IIx machines, x meant 030 in Apple model parlance at that time). The SE/30 had an improved processor direct slot. > > This was the recipe for Apple's success that IBM copied so well, even > > better than Apple itself when it devised the Mac. > > IBM "succeeded" by losing its position in the marketplace when clones > appeared and took the market away from them. > > > Could someone shed some light why the Mac was so different from the ][ > > in this point? > > - It didn't have slots for expansion cards. > - You had to pay more for programming model information. > > The original rationale was that the vast majority of buyers never did more > than set up the system, switch it on and use it. (And complained about having > to install floppy controller or any other internal or external devices. This > was mistakenly understood by SJ as best being met by a machine with no > expansion slots...) The Mac was supposed to be an appliance. In other words, you just plug it in and turn it on just like a stove, microwave, refrigeratior, etc. --- The address in the from field is a spam blocking address, replying to that address will redirect your mail to your sysadmin. To send mail to me my username is lee1089 and my domain is kettering dot edu. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!24.128.1.125!chnws03.mediaone.net!24.131.1.12!denws01.mw.mediaone.net!news.gmi.edu!nova.kettering.edu!root From: Munged Email Munged Email Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 16:47:33 -0400 Organization: Kettering University (formerly GMI E&MI) - Flint MI Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <6imn70$nkm$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inabp$3of$7@ns3.vrx.net> <894440613snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: Munged Email Munged Email NNTP-Posting-Host: nova.kettering.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: lee1089@nova.kettering.edu In-Reply-To: <894440613snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> On Wed, 6 May 1998, Robert Billing wrote: > In article > gierkeNOSPAM@delaware.infi.net "Patrick William Gierke" writes: > > > never use Caps Lock as my run key, and to never, ever, leave a > > single Bob alive. -- Oath of the Vidmaster > ^^^ > > I don't like this game, can we play a different one? :*) Don't worry, it's just a Marathon reference. The other (worthless) humans (that you are trying to save (except for the fake ones with bombs)) are called BoBs. It's short for Born on Board. All people in the game are called BoB, even though they aren't named Bob. So, unless you were born on the Marathon you shouldn't worry. > Uncle Bob Billing BTW, for those of y'all that don't know, Marathon is a "Doom-style" game for the Mac. --- The address in the from field is a spam blocking address, replying to that address will redirect your mail to your sysadmin. To send mail to me my username is lee1089 and my domain is kettering dot edu. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!24.128.1.125!chnws03.mediaone.net!24.131.1.12!denws01.mw.mediaone.net!news.gmi.edu!nova.kettering.edu!root From: Munged Email Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 16:52:35 -0400 Organization: Kettering University (formerly GMI E&MI) - Flint MI Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <6imn70$nkm$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inabp$3of$7@ns3.vrx.net> <3550B71F.5264191@ccw.ch.remove> Reply-To: Munged Email NNTP-Posting-Host: nova.kettering.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: lee1089@nova.kettering.edu In-Reply-To: <3550B71F.5264191@ccw.ch.remove> On Wed, 6 May 1998, Neil Franklin wrote: > Patrick William Gierke wrote: > > > > over the years. For example, the original version of the Mac system > > software did not have small icons for list views. It did not have the zoom > > widget. It did not have the windowshade widget. Didn't have a multitasking > > finder (multifinder came w/ system 5). It did not support drag and drop > > document opening.It could fit onto a 400k floppy w/ penty o' space. There > > The original Mac OS was in ROMs, not on floppy. > IIRC the Mac128 and Mac512 had 64k ROM, the Plus upped this to 128. > > The floppy only contained apps, fonts, user files and the desktop. Nope. Most of the OS was in the ROMs but you still had to have a System file and a Finder to boot from. One trick was to rename a large program "Finder" so you delete the finder file and fit the large program and System file on the same disk. When you turned it on it came right up into the program and when you quit the program the Mac would prompt you for another boot disk or you could turn it off if you wanted. I still have a Mac somewhere in my house (I'm at college) but sans mouse so it's not very useful but if you turn it on without a boot disk it just sits there with the flashing floppy-disk-with-a-question-mark icon. --- The address in the from field is a spam blocking address, replying to that address will redirect your mail to your sysadmin. To send mail to me my username is lee1089 and my domain is kettering dot edu. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!stns.news.pipex.net!hose.news.pipex.net!grot.news.pipex.net!bore.news.pipex.net!pipex!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.idt.net!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!news1.best.com!ns3.vrx.net!not-for-mail From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 7 May 1998 17:08:32 GMT Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <6ispqg$j2p$6@ns3.vrx.net> References: <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <35520e60.1701739@news.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mothra.oaai.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.9.4 Beta(i) Cc: root@127.0.0.1 In Munged Email Munged Email claimed: > First of all, System 7 was no where near an "incremental upgrade". There > are more differnces between System 6 and System 7 than you can shake a > stick at. True, past System 7.1 or so they began to get very unstable. > However, 7.6 fixed a lot of problems and MacOS 8 is at least as stable as > Windows 95. Still the point remains - 7 came out in what, 90? Between then and '95 they did little to change the OS. Instead they bet everything on one big upgrade, Copeland. Oddly it seems there weren't a lot of people working on it at any point until about when '95 was about to ship. Everyone here is fond of blaming IS/IT managers, marketing, MS, whatever, but Apple's woes are Apple's fault. And now they have a team that knows this and won't appologize for their mistakes (sometimes you need to do the massive upheaval thing) and the problems are being solved, sometimes several at a time. Maury ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!ubnnews.unisource.ch!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter.cosy.sbg.ac.at!cosy.sbg.ac.at!Cabal.CESspool!bofh.vszbr.cz!howland.erols.net!news.idt.net!nntp2.cerf.net!nntp.ni.net!bhahn From: bhahn@spam-spam.go-away.com (Brendan Hahn) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 17:20:44 -0800 Organization: Transoft Corp Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <35520e60.1701739@news.newsguy.com> <6ispqg$j2p$6@ns3.vrx.net> Reply-To: bhahn@transoft.mangle.net (unmangle address to reply) NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.180.87.35 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > Still the point remains - 7 came out in what, 90? Between then and '95 >they did little to change the OS. Instead they bet everything on one big >upgrade, Copeland. Oddly it seems there weren't a lot of people working on >it at any point until about when '95 was about to ship. You are neglecting the transition from 68K to PowerPC. A certain amount of engineering effort was required. bhahn@transoft.mangle.net <-- unmangle to reply ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!ubnnews.unisource.ch!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter.cosy.sbg.ac.at!cosy.sbg.ac.at!Cabal.CESspool!bofh.vszbr.cz!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news1.best.com!ns3.vrx.net!not-for-mail From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 7 May 1998 19:29:30 GMT Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton. Lines: 15 Message-ID: <6it22q$ptu$1@ns3.vrx.net> References: <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <35520e60.1701739@news.newsguy.com> <6ispqg$j2p$6@ns3.vrx.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mothra.oaai.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.9.4 Beta(i) Cc: bhahn@spam-spam.go-away.com In Brendan Hahn claimed: > You are neglecting the transition from 68K to PowerPC. A certain amount of > engineering effort was required. Sure, but at the same time the amount of wasted effort was ASTOUNDING. PowerTalk for instance, at my last job one of the guys figured that it added $10 to the cost of ever Mac. GX, PlainTalk, Newton, OpenDoc, this huge list of "killer apps" that were pretty much useless. Had they invested that much effort in the OS rather than these silly pet projects, heck, we'd be running Copeland now and no-one would have heard of OpenStep (sadly too, the is ZERO doubt in my mind that Apple could have built it). Maury ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!Supernews60!supernews.com!ihug.co.nz!clear.net.nz!auckland.ac.nz!p.kerr From: p.kerr@auckland.ac.nz (Peter Kerr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 7 May 1998 20:36:52 GMT Organization: School of Music University of Auckland Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net> <596.429T2168T8885317@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p.kerr.mus.auckland.ac.nz X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b6 "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: > Was it really spelled that way? I realize that the despicable > practice of BiCapitalization was just taking root back then, > but I have no recollection of Microsoft ever spelling their > name that way. P'raps one of our UK readers could check Wireless World from the mid 70s. I have ripped the ads off mine for archiving :-( but I distinctly remember a company from the western USA selling a compiler for microcomputer(s) called MicroSoft. -- Peter Kerr bodger School of Music chandler University of Auckland NZ neo-Luddite ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newshub.northeast.verio.net!news-stl.cp.verio.net!news-lnk.cp.verio.net!crcnews.unl.edu!manager From: 00093182@bigred.unl.edu (Josh Hesse) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 7 May 1998 23:35:36 GMT Organization: CANeM///Cabal Academic Network Monitoring///[tinc] Lines: 24 Message-ID: <6itgg8$772@crcnis3.unl.edu> References: <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net>
X-URL: http://www.binary.net/conc X-BumperSticker: HONK IF YOU LOVE VI! X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950621BETA PL0] Jason McNorton (jmcn@msg.ti.com) wrote: : : Stove, Microwave, Refrigerator, Computer. : : Which one of these things doesn't belong, which one is not like the : other... : Stove. All of the others tend to use electricity exclusively. : -- : A world without the Mac is a step closer to utopia. A world without MS-Windows is a step closer to sanity. -Josh -- Do not send mail to this account. Really. "Talk about silly conspiracy theories..." -Wayne Schlitt in unl.general This post (C)1998, Josh Hesse. Quoted material is (C) of the person quoted. |ess|erb|unl|u| (Oo) MYTHOS How's my posting? 1-800-DEV-NULL email: jh|e@h|ie.|.ed| /||\ NEW AEON .Sigfile freshness date: 4/2/98 Free Karate practices for UNL students & staff--- Just ask me. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter0!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 8 May 1998 00:22:01 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <6iu4va$q7n$1@news.cc.ukans.edu> X-Posted-By: @206.165.43.10 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/alt.folklore.computers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit R. Kirk McPike said: >>other... > >The refrigerator! It's the only one that doesn't generate heat! Sure it does. It's a heat pump and its not 100% efficient so not only does it get hotter on the outside but it generates waste heat also. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!204.186.110.126!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!news.cc.ukans.edu!not-for-mail From: "R. Kirk McPike" Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 00:25:10 -0500 Organization: University of Kansas Computing Services Lines: 20 Message-ID: <6iu4va$q7n$1@news.cc.ukans.edu> References: <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: kuts8p03.cc.ukans.edu X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Jason McNorton wrote in message ... >In article Munged Email Munged Email, root@127.0.0.1 says... >> On Tue, 5 May 1998, Steve Hix wrote: >> The Mac was supposed to be an appliance. In other words, you just plug it >> in and turn it on just like a stove, microwave, refrigeratior, etc. > >Stove, Microwave, Refrigerator, Computer. > >Which one of these things doesn't belong, which one is not like the >other... The refrigerator! It's the only one that doesn't generate heat! Kirk -- A world without people who want to see options other than those they support is a step closer to Utopia. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!24.128.1.125!chnws03.mediaone.net!24.131.1.12!denws01.mw.mediaone.net!news.gmi.edu!nova.kettering.edu!root From: Munged Email Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 03:17:25 -0400 Organization: Kettering University (formerly GMI E&MI) - Flint MI Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net> Reply-To: Munged Email NNTP-Posting-Host: nova.kettering.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: lee1089@nova.kettering.edu In-Reply-To: On Thu, 7 May 1998, Jason McNorton wrote: > In article Munged Email Munged Email, root@127.0.0.1 says... > > On Tue, 5 May 1998, Steve Hix wrote: > > The Mac was supposed to be an appliance. In other words, you just plug it > > in and turn it on just like a stove, microwave, refrigeratior, etc. > > Stove, Microwave, Refrigerator, Computer. > > Which one of these things doesn't belong, which one is not like the > other... I didn't say it was a good idea or a workable idea just that it was the idea behind it's design. Apple learned its lesson later and added slots, SCSI, separate monitor/CPU, etc. --- The address in the from field is a spam blocking address, replying to that address will redirect your mail to your sysadmin. To send mail to me my username is lee1089 and my domain is kettering dot edu. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!24.128.1.125!chnws03.mediaone.net!24.131.1.12!denws01.mw.mediaone.net!news.gmi.edu!nova.kettering.edu!root From: Munged Email Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 03:17:46 -0400 Organization: Kettering University (formerly GMI E&MI) - Flint MI Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <35520e60.1701739@news.newsguy.com> <6ispqg$j2p$6@ns3.vrx.net> Reply-To: Munged Email NNTP-Posting-Host: nova.kettering.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: lee1089@nova.kettering.edu In-Reply-To: <6ispqg$j2p$6@ns3.vrx.net> On 7 May 1998, Maury Markowitz wrote: > In Munged > Email Munged Email claimed: > > First of all, System 7 was no where near an "incremental upgrade". There > > are more differnces between System 6 and System 7 than you can shake a > > stick at. True, past System 7.1 or so they began to get very unstable. > > However, 7.6 fixed a lot of problems and MacOS 8 is at least as stable as > > Windows 95. > > Still the point remains - 7 came out in what, 90? Between then and '95 > they did little to change the OS. Instead they bet everything on one big > upgrade, Copeland. Oddly it seems there weren't a lot of people working on > it at any point until about when '95 was about to ship. And when did Windows 3.1 come out? About the same time. What did MS do to chage the OS? Windows3.11 about as incremental an upgrade as they come. If things would have went better for Apple, Copland (note the spelling) would have come out in 96. Of course they didn't but they did have a plan for a next-gen. OS. Remember, OS development takes *years*. Besides, Copland was a much more agressive project than Windows 95. Apple was trying for complete PMT and PM except for the legacy apps. MS merely had crappy PMT and MP and only in the *total absence* of legacy apps. One legacy app, no PMT--it's that simple. > Everyone here is fond of blaming IS/IT managers, marketing, MS, whatever, > but Apple's woes are Apple's fault. And now they have a team that knows this > and won't appologize for their mistakes (sometimes you need to do the massive > upheaval thing) and the problems are being solved, sometimes several at a > time. If you've read my post you'll note that I do blame Apple on their arrogance. However, no man is an island and neither is a computer company. MS has blood on their hands as well. Blood from Apple, IBM, Amiga, Commodore, Lotus, WordPerfect, etc, etc, etc. --- The address in the from field is a spam blocking address, replying to that address will redirect your mail to your sysadmin. To send mail to me my username is lee1089 and my domain is kettering dot edu. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!24.128.1.125!chnws03.mediaone.net!24.131.1.12!denws01.mw.mediaone.net!news.gmi.edu!nova.kettering.edu!root From: root@127.0.0.1 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 03:17:56 -0400 Organization: Kettering University (formerly GMI E&MI) - Flint MI Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net> <596.429T2168T8885317@sky.bus.com> Reply-To: root@127.0.0.1 NNTP-Posting-Host: nova.kettering.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: lee1089@nova.kettering.edu In-Reply-To: On 7 May 1998, Peter Kerr wrote: > "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: > > Was it really spelled that way? I realize that the despicable > > practice of BiCapitalization was just taking root back then, > > but I have no recollection of Microsoft ever spelling their > > name that way. > > P'raps one of our UK readers could check Wireless World from the mid 70s. > I have ripped the ads off mine for archiving :-( but I distinctly remember > a company from the western USA selling a compiler for microcomputer(s) > called MicroSoft. I just saw an old box the other day from MicroSoft. It was a blue box and MicroSoft was written in silver ink with the o in soft silver at the edge slowly fading to blue in the center. I noted the capital S immediately as I too was unaware of the former spelling. --- The address in the from field is a spam blocking address, replying to that address will redirect your mail to your sysadmin. To send mail to me my username is lee1089 and my domain is kettering dot edu. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter0!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 8 May 1998 07:59:00 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: <6iui84$1fd$2@ns3.vrx.net> X-Posted-By: @206.165.43.17 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/alt.folklore.computers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maury Markowitz said: >> Apple was trying for complete PMT and PM except for the legacy apps. > > That's NOT TRUE. There was no way to write a PMT _app_ under Copland. Not quite. PMT apps were supported under Copland, but not with a PMT interface. All interfaces shared the same process and only one interface could be active at a time, but the PRocess Manager (Task Manager?) would do the scheduling and that one active interface (primary task, 'twas called, I think) would be in the same pre-emptive schedule as all non-interface tasks. A primary task could launch secondary tasks and THOSE were pre-emptive with the active primary task and each other. Pre-Copland applications would behave as though they were primary tasks with no secondary task available. I believe that all primary tasks shared the shared the same process/task-level within a System 7 scheduling process that ensured that only one would be active at a time via the standard System 7 WaitNextEvent call. It was also possible to have "faceless" tasks that were completely pre-emptive. I've forgotten the terminology, but I still have the Copland programming manuals handy if you want me to give you a more precise and comprehensible description. At some later date, Gershwin would provide a PMT version of QuickDraw and other non-reentrant ToolBoxes so that all tasks, even those with interfaces, could be PMT. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 09:05:55 -0400 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Message-ID: References: <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net> <6iu4va$q7n$1@news.cc.ukans.edu> X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.183.91.99 Lines: 30 Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!europa.clark.net!208.134.241.18!newsfeed.internetmci.com!198.6.0.5!uunet!in4.uu.net!news.dca.net!news.dol.net!joe.ragosta In article <6iu4va$q7n$1@news.cc.ukans.edu>, "R. Kirk McPike" wrote: > Jason McNorton wrote in message ... > >In article Munged Email Munged Email, root@127.0.0.1 says... > >> On Tue, 5 May 1998, Steve Hix wrote: > >> The Mac was supposed to be an appliance. In other words, you just plug it > >> in and turn it on just like a stove, microwave, refrigeratior, etc. > > > >Stove, Microwave, Refrigerator, Computer. > > > >Which one of these things doesn't belong, which one is not like the > >other... > > The refrigerator! It's the only one that doesn't generate heat! Sorry, wrong. Refrigerators generate heat. All they do is move heat from inside the box to outside. If they were 100% efficient, then there would be no net generation of heat. Since they're not 100% efficient, they generate heat. The correct answer is: Stove: The only one a college student doesn't need. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news1.best.com!ns3.vrx.net!not-for-mail From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 8 May 1998 09:11:32 GMT Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton. Lines: 56 Message-ID: <6iui84$1fd$2@ns3.vrx.net> References: <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <35520e60.1701739@news.newsguy.com> <6ispqg$j2p$6@ns3.vrx.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mothra.oaai.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.9.4 Beta(i) Cc: root@127.0.0.1 In Munged Email claimed: > And when did Windows 3.1 come out? About the same time. What did MS do to > chage the OS? They released Win95. > things would have went better for Apple, Copland (note the spelling) would > have come out in 96. No it would not have, there is _zero_ possibility of Copeland coming out in '96. More to the point although it tore out a lot of the innards, it really didn't change the MacOS very much from an application standpoint. There is simply nothing in the world like Rhapsody. I've looked. > Of course they didn't but they did have a plan for a > next-gen. No, they had _plans_, and that was one of the many problems. When the project first started it was seen as a relativily easy upgrade to get the MacOS running over a kernel - other items would be left for future versions. But as happened with all other projects of it's time the project quickly blew into a HUGE effort including a SOM based GUI lib (a poor one IMHO), adding SMP to the kernel, the new file manager, a new event mechanism and all sorts of other things. I mean you don't add SMP to your development half way though! > OS. Remember, OS development takes *years*. Don't tell _me_ that, I watched the debacle from the first demos in _94_. > Besides, Copland was a much more agressive project than Windows 95. That's the problem! Had Apple decided instead to move the OS progressively they wouldn't have been caught with their pants down! Since the new policy we've had what, FIVE releases? And each one offers something new. Had they not attempted to do everything at once it would have worked. > Apple was trying for complete PMT and PM except for the legacy apps. That's NOT TRUE. There was no way to write a PMT _app_ under Copland. > and MP and only in the *total absence* of legacy apps. One legacy app, no > PMT--it's that simple. Completely incorrect. > If you've read my post you'll note that I do blame Apple on their > arrogance. However, no man is an island and neither is a computer company. > MS has blood on their hands as well. Blood from Apple, IBM, Amiga, > Commodore, Lotus, WordPerfect, etc, etc, etc. But I don't really care what those people did wrong, I'm a Mac user. Maury ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!atl-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.ti.com!news.itg.ti.com!not-for-mail From: jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 10:22:08 -0500 Organization: Texas Instruments Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net> <35529c22.2466375@news.vip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cna0391438.itg.ti.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10.940 In article Gene Wirchenko, genew@vip.net says... > jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton) wrote: > > >In article Munged Email Munged Email, root@127.0.0.1 says... > >> On Tue, 5 May 1998, Steve Hix wrote: > >> The Mac was supposed to be an appliance. In other words, you just plug it > >> in and turn it on just like a stove, microwave, refrigeratior, etc. > > > >Stove, Microwave, Refrigerator, Computer. > > > >Which one of these things doesn't belong, which one is not like the > >other... > > stove: It's a monosyllabic word. The others aren't. > > microwave: You might take the others on a hiking-style camping > trip, but not a microwave. > > refrigerator: The others heat things. > > computer: The others tend to have large "storage" areas inside of > them. And so, we have the Macuser's view of the world.. Computers-toasters are what they want. And, it's what Steve Jobs wants them to have! A vastly overpriced product (original Mac/original NeXT) that has almost no expandability and will have to be supported by legions of cultists who will buy them. Sorry, I need a computer that isn't a sealed box like Jobs wants to give you. A computer is unlike those appliances in that it's not designed for a single function. It is inherently complex. Over the years, that Mac has had to adjust to that to survive. If you guys are so out of touch to think that a computer, stove, and the other kitchen products are really that similar, then please continue to march off that cliff into Jobs' version of Hell. I'll stick to my Wintel utopia, thank you very much. -- A world without the Mac is a step closer to utopia. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!unclebob From: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk (Robert Billing) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Fri, 08 May 98 10:55:14 GMT Message-ID: <894624914snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <6imn70$nkm$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inabp$3of$7@ns3.vrx.net> <894440613snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-User: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-Path: post-12.mail.demon.net X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 894634654 26729 unclebob tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.29 Lines: 17 In article root@127.0.0.1 "Munged Email Munged Email" writes: > Don't worry, it's just a Marathon reference. The other (worthless) humans Similarly mine was a reference to Bluebottle in the Goon Show who, whenever he is shot, flattened or blown to bits (several times in some episodes) says something like, "This is a rotten game, look at my knees, they are ruined!" -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news.eecs.umich.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!newsstand.tc.umn.edu!usenet From: "George R. Gonzalez" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 10:56:35 -0500 Organization: University of Minnesota Lines: 14 Message-ID: <6iv9u6$dho@epx.cis.umn.edu> References: <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net> <35529c22.2466375@news.vip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: b134-164.dhcp.umn.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 IMHO one of Apple's BIG mistakes was latching onto "MultiFinder". MultiFinder worked well enough that they thought "Well, we're all geniuses, we're way ahead of MSDOS, we can keep building on this shaky architecture with no memory protection, visible OS global variables, a non-reentrant GUI, fuzzily defined and allocated stack space, tons of system procedure hooks, pre and post traps, two incompatible file systems, poor algorithms in the resource manager, memory manager, menu manager, TCP, ..... Let's not work on HARD, un-fun stuff like a REAL system, let's do a bunch of FUN, flashy sideshows, like (list all System 7 features here). ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!news1.best.com!ns3.vrx.net!not-for-mail From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 8 May 1998 12:01:08 GMT Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton. Lines: 10 Message-ID: <6ius64$9fa$1@ns3.vrx.net> References: <6iui84$1fd$2@ns3.vrx.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mothra.oaai.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.9.4 Beta(i) Cc: english@primenet.com In "Lawson English" claimed: > Not quite. PMT apps were supported under Copland, but not with a PMT > interface. Nope, only threads. The kernel could spawn them and apps could, but that's it, the context for a non-kernel executable was held outside the kernel - it has to be. Maury ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!feeder.qis.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter0!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 8 May 1998 13:02:00 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <6ius64$9fa$1@ns3.vrx.net> X-Posted-By: @206.165.43.140 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/alt.folklore.computers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maury Markowitz said: >In "Lawson English" claimed: >> Not quite. PMT apps were supported under Copland, but not with a PMT >> interface. > > Nope, only threads. The kernel could spawn them and apps could, but that's >it, the context for a non-kernel executable was held outside the kernel - it >has to be. > I'm totally confused. What does a kernel have to do with PMT? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!209.89.75.15!News.Toronto.iSTAR.net!News.Vancouver.iSTAR.net!news.istar.net!nr1.ottawa.istar.net!tait From: tait@primeline.net (Gary Tait) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Fri, 08 May 98 13:40:30 GMT Organization: Bruce Municipal Telephone System Lines: 27 Message-ID: <894634769.89250@Virginia> References: <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net> <6iu4va$q7n$1@news.cc.ukans.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: virginia.bmts.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.0 Beta #0 Cache-Post-Path: Virginia!unknown@pm3-155.primeline.net In article <6iu4va$q7n$1@news.cc.ukans.edu>, "R. Kirk McPike" wrote: # #Jason McNorton wrote in message ... #>In article Munged Email Munged Email, root@127.0.0.1 says... #>> On Tue, 5 May 1998, Steve Hix wrote: #>> The Mac was supposed to be an appliance. In other words, you just plug it #>> in and turn it on just like a stove, microwave, refrigeratior, etc. #> #>Stove, Microwave, Refrigerator, Computer. #> #>Which one of these things doesn't belong, which one is not like the #>other... # #The refrigerator! It's the only one that doesn't generate heat! # #Kirk #-- #A world without people who want to see options other than those they support #is a step closer to Utopia. # # A the purpose of a microwave oven is not to generate heat,but to generat microwave energy,which will then cause the food to be heated .Sure heat is produced by the electronics,but that's not the principal of it's operation. Gary Tait,VE3VBF ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!newsfeed.wli.net!newsfeed.sgi.net!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail From: genew@vip.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 15:01:07 GMT Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com Lines: 29 Message-ID: <35529c22.2466375@news.vip.net> References: <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net> Reply-To: genew@vip.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.209.212.42 X-Trace: 894639786 A01OARAUVD42ACCD1C usenet87.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton) wrote: >In article Munged Email Munged Email, root@127.0.0.1 says... >> On Tue, 5 May 1998, Steve Hix wrote: >> The Mac was supposed to be an appliance. In other words, you just plug it >> in and turn it on just like a stove, microwave, refrigeratior, etc. > >Stove, Microwave, Refrigerator, Computer. > >Which one of these things doesn't belong, which one is not like the >other... stove: It's a monosyllabic word. The others aren't. microwave: You might take the others on a hiking-style camping trip, but not a microwave. refrigerator: The others heat things. computer: The others tend to have large "storage" areas inside of them. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko C Pronunciation Guide: y=x++; "wye equals ex plus plus semicolon" x=x++; "ex equals ex doublecross semicolon" ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: thlayli@usa.net (Thlayli) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 15:27:55 GMT Organization: Watership Down, Ltd. Lines: 20 Distribution: world Message-ID: <6iv8d8$6ed@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <35520e60.1701739@news.newsguy.com> <6ispqg$j2p$6@ns3.vrx.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.3.251 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Munged Email wrote: >> Still the point remains - 7 came out in what, 90? Between then and '95 >> they did little to change the OS. Instead they bet everything on one big >> upgrade, Copeland. Oddly it seems there weren't a lot of people working on >> it at any point until about when '95 was about to ship. > >And when did Windows 3.1 come out? About the same time. What did MS do to >chage the OS? Windows3.11 about as incremental an upgrade as they come. Windows 3.0 came out about the same time ('90). 3.1 came out ~'92, and was pretty much an "incremental upgrade", as you say. WfWG 3.11, OTOH, offered significant new functionality in 32-bit disk and file access. Also, the NT 3.x series was being developed concurrently. -- Thlayli thlayli@usa.net http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Sands/5932/ This message printed on 100% recycled electrons (40% post-consumer) ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!peerfeed.ncal.verio.net!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail From: rinaqeb@trbpvgvrf.pbz (Evandro Menezes) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 16:27:30 GMT Organization: E&R Lines: 22 Message-ID: <35533147.6762550@news.nabi.net> References: <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net> <6iu4va$q7n$1@news.cc.ukans.edu> Reply-To: evandro@geocities.com (Evandro Menezes) NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.6.184.170 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 894645054 7FE11U3.SB8AAD006C usenet76.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 In , joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote: >Refrigerators generate heat. All they do is move heat from inside the box >to outside. If they were 100% efficient, then there would be no net >generation of heat. Since they're not 100% efficient, they generate heat. Wrong. Some thermal machines can be more than 100% efficient actually. Some AC are, but it just means that the energy output is more than the input, which is easy to understand when heat from the environment is also used as free energy, i.e., not taken into account when calculating the efficiency. Therefore, most of the heat outside a fridge was inside it; only a very small fraction is due to the motor. HTH, though it's got nothing to do with the subject and it's not the right group to discuss it. ____________________________________________________________ Evandro Menezes Austin, TX USA Tel:+1-512-502-9199 ICQ:7957253 mailto:evandro@geocities.com http://over.to/evandro ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news1.best.com!ns3.vrx.net!not-for-mail From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 8 May 1998 16:36:29 GMT Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <6ivcad$k58$5@ns3.vrx.net> References: <6ius64$9fa$1@ns3.vrx.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mothra.oaai.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.9.4 Beta(i) Cc: english@primenet.com In "Lawson English" claimed: > I'm totally confused. What does a kernel have to do with PMT? Uhhhh, you mean something other than the obvious I assume... Under Unix you have "kernel threads", under Mach (and nuKernel) you have both full "applications" running in the kernel (servers) and their threads too. It's simply another space to run "apps". However in the _user_ space under Copeland there were neither threads nor PMT apps - the PMT threads they talked about (IIRC) were promoted into the kernel (actually I'm doubting that now, but I'm sure of the end result). Basically no _app_ could have any PMT, although portions of it's code could be. Why? Shared graphics state - that's where the events come from. I suppose they could have added some sort of AS-only event queue for other apps (and they kinda did, STARTING in '96 though!) to allow for truely headless app launching all the way up, but they didn't. Maury ###### hn From: bhahn@spam-spam.go-away.com (Brendan Hahn) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 18:19:59 -0800 Organization: Transoft Corp Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <6ius64$9fa$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ivcad$k58$5@ns3.vrx.net> Reply-To: bhahn@transoft.mangle.net (unmangle address to reply) NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.180.87.35 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > Under Unix you have "kernel threads", under Mach (and nuKernel) you have >both full "applications" running in the kernel (servers) and their threads >too. It's simply another space to run "apps". However in the _user_ space >under Copeland there were neither threads nor PMT apps - the PMT threads they >talked about (IIRC) were promoted into the kernel (actually I'm doubting that >now, but I'm sure of the end result). Basically no _app_ could have any PMT, >although portions of it's code could be. This isn't quite right. "Kernel threads" refers to threads that are implemented and managed (created, destroyed, and most importantly switched) by kernel (supervisor-mode) software. It doesn't mean that the threads themselves run in the kernel (though they may). You can also have user-mode threading. NuKernel had kernel threads, but they ran in user-mode. The issue with Copland was that all the GUI, Toolbox, events, etc., the "visible face" of the OS, ran in its own thread, which internally multi-tasked in the older MacOS fashion. Any code wanting to use that stuff had to join in with this thread and live more or less like a classic MacOS app. It could spawn separate threads (not in the kernel, though), but they could not interact with the user. The design is basically a predecessor of the Rhapsody Blue Box, with the big difference that in Copland *only* code in the Blue Box is allowed to pop up a window. It's not a distinction between user and kernel mode, though. bhahn@transoft.mangle.net <-- unmangle to reply ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: ehrice@his.com (Edward Rice) Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Message-ID: Organization: NDS Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 23:47:45 -0400 References: <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net> <596.429T2168T8885317@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm5-106.his.com Lines: 16 X-Authenticated-User: ehrice Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news4.his.com!user In article <596.429T2168T8885317@sky.bus.com>, "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: > >It's worth remembering that in 1984, when the Macintosh came out, Apple > >thought IBM was its chief competition. No one gave MicroSoft (as it was > >spelled back then) a second thought. > > Was it really spelled that way? I realize that the despicable > practice of BiCapitalization was just taking root back then, > but I have no recollection of Microsoft ever spelling their > name that way. In 1984? No. It had long since dropped the internal capital. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.mindspring.net!gatech!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail From: cddukes@cc04du.unity.ncsu.edu (Christopher D Dukes) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 9 May 1998 00:35:09 GMT Organization: The Alfred Packer Memorial Dining Hall Lines: 27 Message-ID: <6j08bt$j73$1@uni00nw.unity.ncsu.edu> References: <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net> <676.431T2595T9476064@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cc03du.unity.ncsu.edu X-Html-LART:

12:00

 X-UCE-Policy-00: Unsolicited Commercial E-mail sent to this account will X-UCE-Policy-01: be billed a $1000 editing fee. The sending of UCE to X-UCE-Policy-02: this account will be considered acceptance of these X-UCE-Policy-03: terms. In article <676.431T2595T9476064@sky.bus.com>, Charlie Gibbs wrote: >In article jmcn@msg.ti.com >(Jason McNorton) writes: > >>In article Munged Email Munged Email, root@127.0.0.1 says... >> >>> On Tue, 5 May 1998, Steve Hix wrote: >>> The Mac was supposed to be an appliance. In other words, you >>> just plug it in and turn it on just like a stove, microwave, >>> refrigeratior, etc. >> >>Stove, Microwave, Refrigerator, Computer. >> >>Which one of these things doesn't belong, which one is not like the >>other... > >Refrigerator. The others make things hot. (Ever seen a >computer user with steam coming out his ears?) I've heard of some old watercooled computers doing that. -- The following must be destroyed. Microsoft, Lyons Partnership. Balkanize USENET! Vote from the rooftops!! The best thing in RTP is now SMOG! Sending unsolicited commercial massmail to this account may result in a network outage for your site. Have a nice day. "Securing a Windows NT system -- Wire Cutters or Thermite?" ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!gatech!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail From: cddukes@cc04du.unity.ncsu.edu (Christopher D Dukes) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 9 May 1998 00:38:01 GMT Organization: The Alfred Packer Memorial Dining Hall Lines: 20 Message-ID: <6j08h9$jcn$1@uni00nw.unity.ncsu.edu> References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <1d8qjpw.8m9mjr1lo1bhoN@n36-62.berlin.snafu.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: cc03du.unity.ncsu.edu X-Html-LART:

12:00

 X-UCE-Policy-00: Unsolicited Commercial E-mail sent to this account will X-UCE-Policy-01: be billed a $1000 editing fee. The sending of UCE to X-UCE-Policy-02: this account will be considered acceptance of these X-UCE-Policy-03: terms. In article <1d8qjpw.8m9mjr1lo1bhoN@n36-62.berlin.snafu.de>, Juergen Nickelsen wrote: >Forrest Cameranesi wrote: > >> As a side note, MS was working with IBM to develop OS/2, an OS that would >> be graphical from the ground up ala the Mac and Lisa, [...] > >If I remember correctly, early OS/2 releases (like 1.3?) were text-mode >only. OS/2 1.2 and 1.3 both had the GUI, although my memory is a tad fuzzy about OS/2 1.1. (I can't remember if I installed it, or used it as blank diskettes). -- The following must be destroyed. Microsoft, Lyons Partnership. Balkanize USENET! Vote from the rooftops!! The best thing in RTP is now SMOG! Sending unsolicited commercial massmail to this account may result in a network outage for your site. Have a nice day. "Securing a Windows NT system -- Wire Cutters or Thermite?" ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!fu-berlin.de!unlisys!news.snafu.de!jnickelsen From: jnickelsen@acm.org (Juergen Nickelsen) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 01:20:20 +0200 Organization: Unlimited Surprise Systems, Berlin Lines: 10 Message-ID: <1d8qjpw.8m9mjr1lo1bhoN@n36-62.berlin.snafu.de> References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: n36-62.berlin.snafu.de X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.3 Forrest Cameranesi wrote: > As a side note, MS was working with IBM to develop OS/2, an OS that would > be graphical from the ground up ala the Mac and Lisa, [...] If I remember correctly, early OS/2 releases (like 1.3?) were text-mode only. -- Juergen Nickelsen ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!Cabal.CESspool!bofh.vszbr.cz!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uow.edu.au!metro!unsw.edu.au!khchung From: khchung@maths.unsw.EDU.AU (Kin Hoong CHUNG) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Followup-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Date: 9 May 1998 07:34:44 GMT Organization: University of New South Wales Lines: 18 Message-ID: <6j10uk$ihm$4@mirv.unsw.edu.au> References: <6imn70$nkm$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inabp$3of$7@ns3.vrx.net> <894440613snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <894624914snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: alpha.maths.unsw.edu.au X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Robert Billing (unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk) wrote: : In article : root@127.0.0.1 "Munged Email Munged Email" writes: : > Don't worry, it's just a Marathon reference. The other (worthless) humans : Similarly mine was a reference to Bluebottle in the Goon Show who, : whenever he is shot, flattened or blown to bits (several times in some : episodes) says something like, "This is a rotten game, look at my : knees, they are ruined!" From what Goonish I have heard on radio recently, it is more like "You rotten swine!" and "I have been deaded again." Would a bag of licorice allsorts help? Cheers, Kin Hoong ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newshub.northeast.verio.net!news.he.net!nixon.area.com!not-for-mail From: mattack@area.com (Matt Ackeret) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 9 May 1998 09:26:27 GMT Organization: Area Systems, Mountain View, California Lines: 37 Message-ID: <6j17g3$cci$1@nixon.area.com> References: <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <35520e60.1701739@news.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: access.class-a.net X-Newsposter: Pnews 4.0-test46 (31 Oct 96) In article <6it22q$ptu$1@ns3.vrx.net>, Maury Markowitz wrote: >In Brendan Hahn >claimed: >> You are neglecting the transition from 68K to PowerPC. A certain amount of >> engineering effort was required. > > Sure, but at the same time the amount of wasted effort was ASTOUNDING. >PowerTalk for instance, at my last job one of the guys figured that it added >$10 to the cost of ever Mac. GX, PlainTalk, Newton, OpenDoc, this huge list >of "killer apps" that were pretty much useless. Had they invested that much Newton useless? Having something electronic to write notes on (without learning some weird heiroglyphic to use to input information) is cool... (I don't have one -- I think they were always far too expensive... If they were down to the price of the PalmPilots, they'd've been much more popular.) Powertalk -- did you ever use it? I think the whole mailbox on the desktop idea is pretty cool. Hell, I'd still be running 7.5.5 at work (without the mailbox extension) *solely* for the keychain, the best feature of powertalk... I would be, but am not, since we were basically ordered to upgrade at some point. OpenDoc -- really cool idea that never caught on. It's the sole concept in the GUI world that I've ever seen get even *remotely close* to being like the Lego-like usefulness of UNIX programs.. (lots of comparatively "little" programs that you use in combination to get useful work done.) With OpenDoc, I could pick to use editor so-and-so, and someone else would use editor whatever-other-editor, and we could exchange data with nobody being the wiser... Just like me using vim and someone else using emacs.. Unfortunately I think that Cyberdog, while another cool idea, is totally a goofy use of OpenDoc.. I mean, the net isn't "document centric".. You're not working on a *file* like you are in a word processor. So Cyberdog is sort of using the wrong tool for the job. -- mattack@area.com ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail From: "Todd Bandrowsky" Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 20:17:46 -0400 Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com Lines: 125 Message-ID: <6j2u9i$llp$2@supernews.com> References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.183.92.104 X-Trace: 894762098 VRL06/YYI5C68CCB7C usenet87.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 > >Here's what I know of the story, corrections welcome: > >Jef Raskin was the creative genious who came up with the idea. He wrote >his thesis on it, called "The Quick Draw System". I can't remember what >his involvement with PARC was, but suffice it to say he came up with the >idea for both Apple and Xerox. But Apple and Xerox did two very different >systems. Xerox had no overlapping windows, the mouse was used for >graphical manipulation of text (drag-select, copy, paste) and for clicking >icons, which instead of representing files as they do in most current GUIs >(all of the ones I've seen , at least), they represented actions to >execute, similar to how menus are used nowadays. Jef, when working at >Apple, wanted to make the graphical computer of his dreams. Steve Jobs >didn't like the idea. So Jef told him to go to Xerox PARC and look at >their GUI system, to see how graphics could help in a computer. Steve and >several Aple engineers went and payed a pricy fee for a quick hands-off >tour of Xerox' system (either the Star or the Alto, I always get those two >confused). Steve saw and liked the idea of graphics in a computer, so >Apple started researching the best ways to implement it. Eventually they >came up with a desktop on which icons of disks and a trash can rested, and >when these icons were double-clicked (using a single button mouse, as >studies showed multiple clicks with one button was better than the >combination-clicking-of-many-buttons approach Xerox had used) they would >open a window with more icons, representing files and directories. A bar >across the top of the screen held menus, with various items in them >representing actions. From this basic concept came two different >approaches: the Macintosh and the Lisa (both code names originally). The >Macintosh was Jef's baby, a simple graphical computing appliance that >anybody could use, in one small box that sat on your desk. The Lisa was >Steve's first baby, a super-powerfull machine with all the modern >buzzwords (PMT, SMP, PM, VM), but the old 68000 processor didn't have an >MMU, and so Apple had to use a separate MMU, and I think they also used >various other coprocessors akin to the way the Amiga did it. This ended up >with a very expensive, large box, as opposed to the nice, compact Mac. As >we all now nowadays, nobody cares about quality when it comes to the >almighty dollar, so they bought the cheaper Mac (Mouse-Activated Computer) >over it's ultra-powered Lisa (Last Inane, Silly Acronym) counterpart. True. The original Lisa was $10,000. >MS' chief enemy was the guys who made VisiCALC, who's name escapes me >(VisiSoft?). They were working on a project call VisiON, another GUI >system (I have no details on this. Anyone?). My understanding is that Visi-On was even slower than the original Windows, by a wide margin. It was even buggier than the original Windows, and it was written in real mode exclusively and not in color. True, the original Windows was also real mode, but MS took some pains to hide that so that at least 3.0 was not too painful. >Apple sued, and for a reason I don't recall, lost (although >everyone - well, almost everyone - acknowledges that MS did steal the GUI >idea from Apple). I believe they lost for the same reasons that Lotus lost in its suit against Borland. Apple copyrighted their U/I, but you MS got around it by changing iconography, etc. >As a side >note, MS was working with IBM to develop OS/2, an OS that would be >graphical from the ground up ala the Mac and Lisa, but behind IBM's back >MS made a full suite of apps for Windows, then pulled support for OS/2 and >left IBM stranded. Actually, that is not true. Originally, MS was way way behind on the Windows desktop market. Lotus was very late, but early Windows leaders were Borland (Quattro Pro for Windows), and Samna (AmiPro). MS basically kept spending on Office, and Access / Foxpro really crushed Borland. As for the IBM deal. It's my understanding that IBM wanted OS/2 to run primarily on PS/2 machines. Microsoft's other customers, such as emergingly powerful Compaq and AST were to be more or less cut out of the new future or made subservient to IBM, along with MS. A lot of MS bashers don't remember how much MS did to prevent IBM from taking over the PC industry. That would have been really, really bad. Windows now had it's own app suite, ran on the >ever-pervasive IBM-PC machines and their clones (which IBM tried to >circumvent, but that's another story) under a per-unit licence, and it ran >the uncountable DOS programs as well, leading to the success of Windows >and the relative failure of the Macintosh (and the near-absolute failure >of OS/2). the issue with Windows acceptance was that it was NOT a radical leap like the macintosh. This was before all the DOS command line lovers jumped to PC Unixes. Basically, the idea behind Windows was that you could install it, play with it, and still run DOS. If you didn't like Windows, you didn't have to type "win". > >So it's a combination of luck, leaching off others, and general dirty >tricks that lead to Windows being the dominant graphical OS, and Not true. Actually, Windows was dead in the water as a real mode operating system until like one or two guys at MS were pissed off that OS/2 was getting all the attention, so they went off and made Windows run in 16 bit PM. A lot of people were really, really, afraid of IBM re-exerting control over the PC industry. Nobody wanted IBM to dominate PC's the way it did midrange computing. So as soon as MS said, "here's Windows", a lot of developers flocked to it because they could afford it, could afford to develop for it, and it wasn't IBM. >eventually the dominant OS ever. You see, they used some of their code >from OS/2 to develop Windows NT, a new OS with all the modern buzzwords >now that the hardware could handle it. (Meanwhile Steve Jobs had left Windows NT was originally going to be OS/2 3.0. Now, Apple bought back Steve's >second baby, NeXT, and is making a cross-platform >(Mac/Intel/MacOS/Win32/Unix), buzzword-compliant (Mach) system with an >interface combining the best from Mac and NeXT without any of that MS >inconsistant inelegant nonintuitive MDI shit. And MS is integrating a web >browser. The idea of integrating a web browser into the UI makes a lot of sense if you think of it as a replacement for .RC files. ###### Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 03:42:40 -0600 From: kreme@SPAM.kreme.com (Kreme) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Message-ID: References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <35520e60.1701739@news.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.3.5 Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.174.31.3 Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.he.net!Supernews60!supernews.com!coop.net!news.coop.net!cronkite.chisp.net!kreme In article <35520e60.1701739@news.newsguy.com>, telam@iquest.net (Tom Elam) wrote: > Oh, come now. Win 95 was launched in early July, it was nowhere close to Win > 96. The 950 gold release was actually available in April - if you knew > where to get it. I am still running that good old 950, patched a few times, > today. Windows 95 was released in August, and it was released far too early. It took my attempting to change the screen resolution to crash the system so badly it had to be re-initialized (this was on Windows 95'd release day). By the time the system stabalized with the patches, it was early 1996. So yes, I would say it was very close to 1996. Heck, I would say it actually was 1996 before Windows 95 was anything more than a "boot-launch-crash-repeat" toy. > WOW - spot on. Apple sat there for 3-4 years, watching Win 95. All they ever > did was release incremental upgrades - System 6, System 7, 7.1, 7.11, 7.2, up > to System 7.6.x, each one becoming less stable and making a lot of people very > unhappy. Also, don't forget that MS lagged over a year on their Mac release of > Word 6. That was a killer for many mixed IBM/Mac sites. Err.. less stable? 7.1 was certainly better than 7.0, 7.5.(x>0) is a badly remembered dream. 7.6 is amazingly stable, as is 8.0 and 8.1. I think 8.1 is the best OS out there, bar none (at least in terms of stability). ###### Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 03:45:42 -0600 From: kreme@SPAM.kreme.com (Kreme) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Message-ID: References: <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <35520e60.1701739@news.newsguy.com> <6ispqg$j2p$6@ns3.vrx.net> X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.3.5 Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.174.31.3 Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!199.45.255.100!coop.net!news.coop.net!cronkite.chisp.net!kreme In article <6ispqg$j2p$6@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > In Munged > Email Munged Email claimed: > > First of all, System 7 was no where near an "incremental upgrade". There > > are more differnces between System 6 and System 7 than you can shake a > > stick at. True, past System 7.1 or so they began to get very unstable. > > However, 7.6 fixed a lot of problems and MacOS 8 is at least as stable as > > Windows 95. > > Still the point remains - 7 came out in what, 90? Between then and '95 > they did little to change the OS. Instead they bet everything on one big > upgrade, Copeland. Oddly it seems there weren't a lot of people working on > it at any point until about when '95 was about to ship. > > Everyone here is fond of blaming IS/IT managers, marketing, MS, whatever, > but Apple's woes are Apple's fault. And now they have a team that knows this > and won't appologize for their mistakes (sometimes you need to do the massive > upheaval thing) and the problems are being solved, sometimes several at a > time. I don't think you will find anyone who denies Apple has made serious mistakes with the Macintohs all through it's history. Apple has been stunningly incompetent many times over the last 14 years. No denial. On the other hand, Apple has been screwed many times by many different people in this time period, and many times it has been Billy-Bob Gates doing the screwing. ###### Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 03:49:05 -0600 From: kreme@SPAM.kreme.com (Kreme) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Message-ID: References: <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <35520e60.1701739@news.newsguy.com> <6ispqg$j2p$6@ns3.vrx.net> <6it22q$ptu$1@ns3.vrx.net> X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.3.5 Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.174.31.3 Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!peerfeed.ncal.verio.net!Supernews60!supernews.com!coop.net!news.coop.net!cronkite.chisp.net!kreme In article <6it22q$ptu$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > In Brendan Hahn > claimed: > > You are neglecting the transition from 68K to PowerPC. A certain amount of > > engineering effort was required. > > Sure, but at the same time the amount of wasted effort was ASTOUNDING. > PowerTalk for instance, at my last job one of the guys figured that it added > $10 to the cost of ever Mac. GX, PlainTalk, Newton, OpenDoc, this huge list > of "killer apps" that were pretty much useless. Had they invested that much > effort in the OS rather than these silly pet projects, heck, we'd be running > Copeland now and no-one would have heard of OpenStep (sadly too, the is ZERO > doubt in my mind that Apple could have built it). I'll give you most of those, but not OpenStep. OpenStep was a killer app. It deserves to be part of the system right now, and part of rhapsody. It was steved because Steve decided to consentrate on the core OS. I can't fault him for this decision, we are seeing leaps and bounds, but I hope that not too far down the road, OpenDoc is un-steved. Is un-steved a word? It's happened already with some components, so maybe there's some hope. ###### Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 03:52:59 -0600 From: kreme@SPAM.kreme.com (Kreme) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Message-ID: References: <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354e48b8.0@aedes.isd.net> <354f45fa.628426@nntp.infoave.net> X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.3.5 X-Face: nrf3>{WQ6c&r+7@e)"]0G60`-6ND^)I2mI%>)QGYa=9"=7jhd-g2|b3!>Al0+ Ccb%xGQshhi|g@QU2$ X-Face-Author: Tony Svanstrom mailto:tls@kagi.com http://tls.base.org/ If you want to use it please also use this Authorline. Lines: 9 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.174.31.3 Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!Supernews60!supernews.com!coop.net!news.coop.net!cronkite.chisp.net!kreme In article <354f45fa.628426@nntp.infoave.net>, bernie@fantasyfarm.com (Bernie Cosell) wrote: > There is no mention anywhere of there being any 'deal' between Apple and > Xerox nor of Xerox getting any compensation for their work/ideas... Well, no, there wouldn't be, would there? After all, Xerox was allowed to buy stock in a company that didn't trade stock. Chances are the details of that deal would not be disclosed. ###### Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 04:22:58 -0600 From: kreme@SPAM.kreme.com (Kreme) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Message-ID: References: <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net> X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.3.5 X-Face: nrf3>{WQ6c&r+7@e)"]0G60`-6ND^)I2mI%>)QGYa=9"=7jhd-g2|b3!>Al0+ Ccb%xGQshhi|g@QU2$ X-Face-Author: Tony Svanstrom mailto:tls@kagi.com http://tls.base.org/ If you want to use it please also use this Authorline. Lines: 47 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.174.31.3 Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-stock.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!199.45.255.100!coop.net!news.coop.net!cronkite.chisp.net!kreme In article , Munged Email Munged Email wrote: > On Tue, 5 May 1998, Steve Hix wrote: > > > In article <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net>, evandro@geocities.com > > (Evandro Menezes) wrote: > > > > > In , > > > forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote: > > > > > > >So it's a combination of luck, leaching off others, and general dirty > > > >tricks that lead to Windows being the dominant graphical OS, and > > > >eventually the dominant OS ever. > > > > > > One must not forget the hard part of the story: Apple hardware became > > > closed, monopolized and expensive. Like the Apple ][, the PC was > > > open, competitive and cheap. > > > > Other than having expansion slots, the Apple][ line were never "open" > > particularly. Documentation of OS entry points was, often, included > > with the system documentation, but not always. It was also available > > for the Mac, but not for "free". > > > > Slots began appearing at least by the SE/30, and pretty much > > without exception from the Mac II on. The SE/30 was after the Mac II (the Mac II was out in the summer of 1987). By the time the SE/30 came out, the Mac IIx was out (the original Mac II used a 68020 (it could have ben a 68010?) and the "x" meant 68030. The first slot was probably the SE, I don't remember when it came out. Not to much before the Mac II though. The Mac II introduced nubus, and was eventually upgradable to a Mac IIfx, the speed champion Mac for several years. > The Plus was the first Mac with SCSI, the SE (System Expansion) came with > a processor direct slot and ADB. The Plus was also the first Mac with > upgradable memory. The SE/30 was a later version of the SE with a 68030 > processor (it actually should have been called the SEX like the IIx > machines, x meant 030 in Apple model parlance at that time). The SE/30 had > an improved processor direct slot. Of course, the first Apple with an ADB port was the Apple //gs, but hen everyone knows that, right? The //gs was also the first Apple that could handle more than 4 megs of RAM. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!ais.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!bulb.garlic.com!stevehix From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 10:19:44 -0700 Organization: South Valley Internet Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <4dl30p$kba@news.sdsmt.edu> <4dmbca$2c5@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <35520e60.1701739@news.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip51.safemail.com X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.1 > In article <35520e60.1701739@news.newsguy.com>, telam@iquest.net (Tom > Elam) wrote: > > WOW - spot on. Apple sat there for 3-4 years, watching Win 95. All they ever > > did was release incremental upgrades - System 6, System 7, 7.1, 7.11, 7.2, up > > to System 7.6.x, each one becoming less stable and making a lot of people very > > unhappy. Weird...the revisions after 7.5.3 kept getting more reliable, not less. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!feeder.qis.net!news.idt.net!nntp.giganews.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!bulb.garlic.com!stevehix From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 10:33:04 -0700 Organization: South Valley Internet Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip51.safemail.com X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.1 In article , jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote: > Kreme wrote: > > >The first slot was probably the SE, I don't remember when it came out. > >Not to much before the Mac II though. > > The same day, IIRC. Sometime in March of 1987, I believe. Intro dates: - Mac SE ; Mar 87 - Mac SE/30; Jan 89 - Mac II; Mar 87 - Mac IIx; Sep 88 - Mac IIci; Sep 89 The SE was the first one with a slot, an SE PDS. The Mac II first with non-proprietary slot, NuBus. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter0!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 10 May 1998 13:39:00 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: X-Posted-By: @206.165.43.187 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/alt.folklore.computers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kreme said: >The SE/30 was after the Mac II (the Mac II was out in the summer of >1987). By the time the SE/30 came out, the Mac IIx was out (the original >Mac II used a 68020 (it could have ben a 68010?) and the "x" meant 68030. >The first slot was probably the SE, I don't remember when it came out. >Not to much before the Mac II though. The SE and Mac II were introduced simultaneously. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!Cabal.CESspool!bofh.vszbr.cz!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!news.mindspring.net!news.mindspring.com!jason From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 10 May 1998 13:53:46 GMT Organization: I don't think so Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <-1901960409200001@206.26.113.22> <4doj82$qlm@meaddata.lexis-nexis.com> <4dp5p6$1pd@spectator.cris.com> <3100cac3.4983674@newshost.uwo.ca> <1d8giaj.wv8pg51v3bxq7N@pppsl475.chicagonet.net> <53831.229$Dc.1570901@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca> <354f1f6e.4323477@news.nabi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip168.buffalo3.ny.pub-ip.psi.net X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.6 UNIX) Kreme wrote: >The first slot was probably the SE, I don't remember when it came out. >Not to much before the Mac II though. The same day, IIRC. Sometime in March of 1987, I believe. -- If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more "correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify that kind of performance loss. -- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy ###### Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers From: ehrice@his.com (Edward Rice) Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Message-ID: Organization: NDS Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 01:20:19 -0400 References: NNTP-Posting-Host: pm5-110.his.com Lines: 21 X-Authenticated-User: ehrice Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news.linkline.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!europa.clark.net!209.130.129.214!nntp.frontiernet.net!205.252.121.18.MISMATCH!news4.his.com!user In article , "Lawson English" wrote: > Kreme said: > > >The SE/30 was after the Mac II (the Mac II was out in the summer of > >1987). By the time the SE/30 came out, the Mac IIx was out (the original > >Mac II used a 68020 (it could have ben a 68010?) and the "x" meant 68030. > >The first slot was probably the SE, I don't remember when it came out. > >Not to much before the Mac II though. > > The SE and Mac II were introduced simultaneously. And the SE/30, as he said, came later. The II was indeed the first 68020 processor (to support Kreme's memory) in the Mac line, and the SE/30 with the 68030 naturally came along later. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.139.184.50!newsfeed.pfmc.net!206.139.184.4!not-for-mail From: Sunder Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:58:33 -0400 Organization: SunderNET.com Lines: 20 Message-ID: <355A0979.35242C0E@brainlink.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: sunder.pfmc.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (WinNT; I) Edward Rice wrote: > And the SE/30, as he said, came later. The II was indeed the first 68020 > processor (to support Kreme's memory) in the Mac line, and the SE/30 with > the 68030 naturally came along later. It was interesting for a while back then on betting what the machine next in line from the SE would get called since the next machine up from the II was called the IIx for the '030. :) too bad apple didn't want to sell the Mac SEx :) -- =====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos============== .+.^.+.| Ray Arachelian |Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see |./|\. ..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were |/\|/\ <--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run |\/|\/ ../|\..| "A toast to Odin, |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/. .+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were.... |..... ======================= http://www.sundernet.com ========================== ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!news.iastate.edu!rhawkins From: rhawkins@iastate.edu (Rick Hawkins) Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: GUI History (was: Re: THE DEATH OF APPLE COMPUTER) Date: 19 May 1998 14:43:12 GMT Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa USA Lines: 22 Message-ID: <6js5q0$fcm$1@news.iastate.edu> References: <6iu4va$q7n$1@news.cc.ukans.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pv2086.vincent.iastate.edu In article , Lawson English wrote: >R. Kirk McPike said: > >>>other... >> >>The refrigerator! It's the only one that doesn't generate heat! > > > >Sure it does. It's a heat pump and its not 100% efficient so not only does >it get hotter on the outside but it generates waste heat also. which, of course, also lands on the outside. rick -- R E HAWKINS rhawkins@iastate.edu These opinions will not be those of ISU until they pay my retainer.