Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.wli.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-master.cisco.com!not-for-mail From: John Ahlstrom Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:16:23 -0800 Organization: Cisco Systems, Inc. Lines: 9 Message-ID: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: swing.cisco.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.4 sun4m) Microsoft provides EXTREMELY COST-EFFECITVE software for 10s of millions of people. Not the best, not the cheapest. but VERY VERY COST-EFFECTIVE. John Ahlstrom jahlstrom@cisco.com -- Do something small, useful now. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-dc.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!newsfeed.wli.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsgate.tandem.com!uunet!in4.uu.net!newsfeed.attap.net!mango.singnet.com.sg!dahlia.singnet.com.sg!columbine.singnet.com.sg!not-for-mail From: Mathias Koerber Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: 22 Mar 1998 05:33:05 GMT Organization: SingNet Lines: 24 Message-ID: <6f27qh$7uv$2@columbine.singnet.com.sg> References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> Reply-To: mathias@singnet.com.sg NNTP-Posting-Host: singapura.singnet.com.sg User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971224 (UNIX) (OSF1/V3.2 (alpha)) Only if you pirate it. Linux, FreeBSD etc and their applications are usually cheaper.., some very much so.. John Ahlstrom wrote: : Microsoft provides EXTREMELY COST-EFFECITVE software for : 10s of millions of people. : Not the best, not the cheapest. but VERY VERY COST-EFFECTIVE. : John Ahlstrom : jahlstrom@cisco.com : -- : Do something small, useful now. -- Mathias Koerber | Tel: +65 / 471 9820 | mathias@staff.singnet.com.sg SingNet NOC | Fax: +65 / 475 3273 | mathias@koerber.org Q'town Tel. Exch. | PGP: Keyid: 768/25E082BD finger mathias@singnet.com.sg 2 Stirling Rd | 1A 8B FC D4 93 F1 9A FC BD 98 A3 1A 0E 73 01 65 S'pore 148943 | Disclaimer: I speak only for myself I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings. -- Albert Einstein ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!nntp.abs.net!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!newsfeed.sgi.net!news.sgi.net!not-for-mail Message-ID: <35155987.16D6@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> From: Adam Stouffer X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 10 Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 18:28:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: dial-s2w1-p13.monroe.sgi.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 13:28:01 EST John Ahlstrom wrote: > > Microsoft provides EXTREMELY COST-EFFECITVE software for > 10s of millions of people. > This better be a joke beause I'm not laughing. Adam -- __________________________ | Remove the NO-SPAM | __________________________ ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!208.223.233.19!newsfeed.sgi.net!news.sgi.net!not-for-mail Message-ID: <351559DD.3ED5@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> From: Adam Stouffer X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f27qh$7uv$2@columbine.singnet.com.sg> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 11 Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 18:29:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: dial-s2w1-p13.monroe.sgi.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 13:29:27 EST Mathias Koerber wrote: > > Only if you pirate it. Linux, FreeBSD etc and their applications > are usually cheaper.., some very much so.. > Thats why I sell people copies of windows 95 for $3 and NT 4.0 for $5. -- __________________________ | Remove the NO-SPAM | __________________________ ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!server3.netnews.ja.net!news.ox.ac.uk!not-for-mail From: Ben Hutchings Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: 22 Mar 1998 22:33:52 -0000 Organization: Not organised Lines: 18 Sender: womble@eldritch.dyn.ml.org Message-ID: <6f43kg$2ct$1@eldritch.dyn.ml.org> References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: max96.public.ox.ac.uk In article <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com>, John Ahlstrom wrote: >Microsoft provides EXTREMELY COST-EFFECITVE software for >10s of millions of people. > >Not the best, not the cheapest. but VERY VERY COST-EFFECTIVE. Have you taken into account the hidden costs: * loss of productivity due to bugs? * technical support? * training (MS apps are *not* intuitive)? * regular hardware upgrades to support application bloat? -- Ben Hutchings | ICOA User Rep election 1998: http://www.jms.org/election/ email/finger: m95bwh@ecs.ox.ac.uk | web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~worc0223/ Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it. - Donald Knuth ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: aax@ix.netcom.com(ANDREW GRYGUS ) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: 22 Mar 1998 22:48:40 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 27 Message-ID: <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f27qh$7uv$2@columbine.singnet.com.sg> <351559DD.3ED5@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pas-ca6-02.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Mar 22 4:48:40 PM CST 1998 In <351559DD.3ED5@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> Adam Stouffer writes: > >Mathias Koerber wrote: >> >> Only if you pirate it. Linux, FreeBSD etc and their applications >> are usually cheaper.., some very much so.. >> > >Thats why I sell people copies of windows 95 for $3 and NT 4.0 for $5. As a person with unasailable anti-Microsoft credentials, I say this to you. Windows95 and NT 4.0 are Microsoft's property, to be dispositioned as they see fit. If you sell these products for $3 and $5, you are stealing Microsoft's property and are a criminal - plain flat out exactly that. Further: by passing on this stolen property at unrealisticaly low prices, you undermine the livelihood of honest, hard working folks who provide superior products to Microsoft's at lower cost. In short, sir, you smell to high heaven, and so do your "customers". Andrew Grygus - California Republic --------------------------------------- Resist Microsoft! ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news.mindspring.net!gatech!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail From: cddukes@cc04du.unity.ncsu.edu (Christopher D Dukes) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: 22 Mar 1998 23:32:36 GMT Organization: North Carolina State University Lines: 20 Message-ID: <6f472k$750$1@uni00nw.unity.ncsu.edu> References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f43kg$2ct$1@eldritch.dyn.ml.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: cc03du.unity.ncsu.edu X-Html-LART:

12:00

 X-UCE-Policy-00: Unsolicited Commercial E-mail sent to this account will X-UCE-Policy-01: be billed a $1000 editing fee. The sending of UCE to X-UCE-Policy-02: this account will be considered acceptance of these X-UCE-Policy-03: terms. In article <6f43kg$2ct$1@eldritch.dyn.ml.org>, Ben Hutchings wrote: > >Have you taken into account the hidden costs: >* loss of productivity due to bugs? >* technical support? >* training (MS apps are *not* intuitive)? Are you implying that say Blotus Apps ARE intuitive? >* regular hardware upgrades to support application bloat? You forgot frequent reinstalls due to bitrot. Odd ball application behavior due to app installers that like installing backlevel DLLs. -- The following must be destroyed. Microsoft, Lyons Partnership. Balkanize USENET! Vote from the rooftops!! The best thing in RTP is now SMOG! Sending unsolicited commercial massmail to this account may result in a network outage for your site. Have a nice day. "Securing a Windows NT system -- Wire Cutters or Thermite?" ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-stock.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.idt.net!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!greenaum.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: sam@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk (Sam.) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 07:04:11 GMT Message-ID: <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f27qh$7uv$2@columbine.singnet.com.sg> <351559DD.3ED5@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: sam@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk NNTP-Posting-Host: greenaum.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: greenaum.demon.co.uk [194.222.71.189] X-No-Archive: yes X-Newsreader: TIN / Lines: 16 aax@ix.netcom.com(ANDREW GRYGUS ) wrote: >Further: by passing on this stolen property at unrealisticaly low >prices, you undermine the livelihood of honest, hard working folks who >provide superior products to Microsoft's at lower cost. I thought piracy was supposed to *increase* prices. Make your mind up, you can't have it both ways. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "When I said 'hello' just now, it sounded exactly like Jason. Which isn't surprising. Because I'm him!" - Jason, Havakazoo XXsam@greenaum.demon.co.ukXX http://www.greenaum.demon.co.uk/ ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!sibyl.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!howland.erols.net!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!unclebob From: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk (Robert Billing) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 98 07:17:21 GMT Message-ID: <890637441snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f27qh$7uv$2@columbine.singnet.com.sg> <351559DD.3ED5@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-User: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-Path: post-30.mail.demon.net X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 890645749 18375 unclebob tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.29 Lines: 18 In article <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> aax@ix.netcom.com(ANDREW "ANDREW GRYGUS " writes: > >Thats why I sell people copies of windows 95 for $3 and NT 4.0 for $5. > > As a person with unasailable anti-Microsoft credentials, I say this to > you. Windows95 and NT 4.0 are Microsoft's property, to be He didn't say they were *accurate* copies. Perhaps he uses a photocopier... -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.icl.net!btnet-feed2!btnet!carbon.eu.sun.com!uk-usenet.uk.sun.com!paddington!richardt From: R!ch Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 07:47:44 +0000 Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f27qh$7uv$2@columbine.singnet.com.sg> <351559DD.3ED5@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: paddington.uk.sun.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: richardt@paddington To: ANDREW GRYGUS In-Reply-To: <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> On 22 Mar 1998, ANDREW GRYGUS wrote: > As a person with unasailable anti-Microsoft credentials, I say this to > you. Windows95 and NT 4.0 are Microsoft's property, to be > dispositioned as they see fit. If you sell these products for $3 and > $5, you are stealing Microsoft's property and are a criminal - plain > flat out exactly that. > > Further: by passing on this stolen property at unrealisticaly low > prices, you undermine the livelihood of honest, hard working folks who > provide superior products to Microsoft's at lower cost. > > In short, sir, you smell to high heaven, and so do your "customers". In short, sir, you seem to be humour impaired. Of course the original poster doesn't sell Winduhs for $3 - $5; no-one would buy it. He gives it away freely. A great service I might add: coasters from stores are *so* expensive! Oh yeah: :-) -- R!ch (Email is flakey at present: use richardt@keaton.uk.sun.com) If it ain't analogue, it ain't music. #include \\|// - ? (o o) /==================================oOOo=(_)=oOOo========\ | Richard Teer richard.teer@uk.sun.com | | | | | | WWW: www.rkdltd.demon.co.uk | | .oooO | | ( ) Oooo. | \===================================\ (==( )==========/ \_) ) / (_/ ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: aax@ix.netcom.com(ANDREW GRYGUS ) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: 23 Mar 1998 08:03:28 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 22 Message-ID: <6f550g$rjn@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f27qh$7uv$2@columbine.singnet.com.sg> <351559DD.3ED5@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: pas-ca5-06.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Mar 23 12:03:28 AM PST 1998 In <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> sam@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk (Sam.) writes: > >aax@ix.netcom.com(ANDREW GRYGUS ) wrote: > >>Further: by passing on this stolen property at unrealisticaly low >>prices, you undermine the livelihood of honest, hard working folks who >>provide superior products to Microsoft's at lower cost. > >I thought piracy was supposed to *increase* prices. Make your mind up, >you can't have it both ways. Piracy increasess the price of the >>product being pirated<< (development amortized over fewer sales). Piracy >>destroys sales<< for products other than the one being pirated - why buy the less expensive product when you didn't pay for the expensive one? Why buy the better product when you didn't pay for the "good enough" one? Andrew Grygus - California Republic ------------------------------------- Resist Microsoft! ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!diablo.theplanet.net!btnet-feed2!btnet!carbon.eu.sun.com!uk-usenet.uk.sun.com!paddington!richardt From: R!ch Teer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:22:34 +0000 Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f27qh$7uv$2@columbine.singnet.com.sg> <351559DD.3ED5@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> <6f550g$rjn@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: paddington.uk.sun.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: richardt@paddington In-Reply-To: <6f550g$rjn@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> On 23 Mar 1998, ANDREW GRYGUS wrote: > Piracy increasess the price of the >>product being pirated<< > (development amortized over fewer sales). Piracy >>destroys sales<< > for products other than the one being pirated - why buy the less > expensive product when you didn't pay for the expensive one? Why buy > the better product when you didn't pay for the "good enough" one? While I agree with this in principle, there's a builtin assumption that the person who uses pirated software would have bought it if a pirated version wasn't available. For example, years ago I had loads of ripped of games for my BBC Micro. Would I have bought them if I didn't own ripped off copies? No. Therefore, the software companies in question didn't lose any money (from me) as I wouldn't have bought the game in the first place. The only game I did buy was Elite - because I thought it was worth the money. > Resist Microsoft! This should be done at all costs! -- R!ch Teer (Email is flakey at present: use richardt@keaton.uk.sun.com) If it ain't analogue, it ain't music. #include WWW: www.rkdltd.demon.co.uk ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed1.news.luth.se!luth.se!fu-berlin.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ais.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: aax@ix.netcom.com(ANDREW GRYGUS ) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: 23 Mar 1998 15:58:23 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 15 Message-ID: <6f60qv$i5n@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f27qh$7uv$2@columbine.singnet.com.sg> <351559DD.3ED5@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pas-ca12-13.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Mar 23 7:58:23 AM PST 1998 In R!ch writes: > >In short, sir, you seem to be humour impaired. Of course the original >poster doesn't sell Winduhs for $3 - $5; no-one would buy it. He gives >it away freely. A great service I might add: coasters from stores are >*so* expensive! Coasters? Don't you guys have AOL over there? Andrew Grygus - California Republic ------------------------------------- Resist Microsoft! ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.clark.net!192.148.253.68!netnews.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: aax@ix.netcom.com(ANDREW GRYGUS ) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: 23 Mar 1998 16:07:18 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 27 Message-ID: <6f61bm$khp@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com> References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f27qh$7uv$2@columbine.singnet.com.sg> <351559DD.3ED5@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> <6f550g$rjn@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pas-ca12-13.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Mar 23 10:07:18 AM CST 1998 In R!ch Teer writes: > >While I agree with this in principle, there's a builtin assumption >that the person who uses pirated software would have bought it >if a pirated version wasn't available. For example, years ago I >had loads of ripped of games for my BBC Micro. Would I have bought >them if I didn't own ripped off copies? No. Therefore, the software >companies in question didn't lose any money (from me) as I wouldn't >have bought the game in the first place. The only game I did buy >was Elite - because I thought it was worth the money. This is certainly true for a significant percentage, but, if you didn't have the pirated software around to play with, might you have purchased one or two titles from some other publisher? In the U.S., with about the lowest piracy rate in the world, I see about 5 pirated copies of AutoCAD for every purchased one. Would these people have purchased if they hadn't pirated? Just about every one. Now, how much is due to the publisher's pricing? If the price was lower would there be less piracy, thus more income? Where would the break-even be? Picking a price point is the most difficult thing any software publisher can do. Andrew Grygus - California Republic ------------------------------------ Resist Microsoft! ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!news-lond.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!news.idt.net!darla.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <351559DD.3ED5@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> Organization: Plethora . Net - More Net, Less Spam! X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test62 (21 February 1998) From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Lines: 30 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 17:12:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: guild.plethora.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:12:08 CST In article <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk>, Sam. wrote: >aax@ix.netcom.com(ANDREW GRYGUS ) wrote: > >>Further: by passing on this stolen property at unrealisticaly low >>prices, you undermine the livelihood of honest, hard working folks who >>provide superior products to Microsoft's at lower cost. > >I thought piracy was supposed to *increase* prices. Make your mind up, >you can't have it both ways. It does! If you sell NT for $5, you've undercut a Linux distribution at $20, so they get fewer sales, so their prices have to go up if they want to make enough money selling CD's to stay in business. Also, anything that promotes the use of Microsoft software, in any way shape or form, will *dramatically* increase the cost of just about everything, because it will hurt productivity wherever it goes. -s -- Copyright '98, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! Not speaking for my employer. Questions on C/Unix? Send mail for help. Visit my new ISP --- More Net, Less Spam! ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!news-lond.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!209.98.98.32!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f550g$rjn@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <6f61bm$khp@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com> Organization: Plethora . Net - More Net, Less Spam! X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test62 (21 February 1998) From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Lines: 31 Message-ID: <3LwR.41$DZ.193473@ptah.visi.com> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 17:13:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: guild.plethora.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:13:35 CST In article <6f61bm$khp@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com>, ANDREW GRYGUS wrote: >In the U.S., with about the lowest piracy rate in the world, I see >about 5 pirated copies of AutoCAD for every purchased one. Would these >people have purchased if they hadn't pirated? Just about every one. >Now, how much is due to the publisher's pricing? If the price was >lower would there be less piracy, thus more income? Where would the >break-even be? Picking a price point is the most difficult thing any >software publisher can do. When I was a kid, we knew a local AutoCAD distributor, and he gave me a free copy. It ran on the Z-100. The rationale? Small children don't buy AutoCAD, but I was having a lot of fun with it. A couple of years later, we built a plotter from a kit, and got it working as an output device. I did a lot of my gaming maps in autocad... -s -- Copyright '98, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! Not speaking for my employer. Questions on C/Unix? Send mail for help. Visit my new ISP --- More Net, Less Spam! ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.mcgill.ca!cs.mcgill.ca!raphael From: Louis RAPHAEL Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: 23 Mar 1998 17:30:41 GMT Organization: Societe pour la promotion du petoncle vert Lines: 28 Message-ID: <6f6681$oif@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca> References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f27qh$7uv$2@columbine.singnet.com.sg> <351559DD.3ED5@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> <6f550g$rjn@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <6f61bm$khp@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: willy.cs.mcgill.ca User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971127 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m)) ANDREW GRYGUS wrote: : In the U.S., with about the lowest piracy rate in the world, I see : about 5 pirated copies of AutoCAD for every purchased one. Would these : people have purchased if they hadn't pirated? Just about every one. : Now, how much is due to the publisher's pricing? If the price was : lower would there be less piracy, thus more income? Where would the : break-even be? Picking a price point is the most difficult thing any : software publisher can do. Seeing the pricing of that piece of (otherwise excellend) software, it is obvious that AutoDesk is (every time, but unsuccessfully) relying on their copy protection "insert" to prevent piracy, and choosing to gouge the market. IMHO, it serves them right that they always fail. In practice, what ends up happening with their product is what happens with every other piece of software - the legitimate copy is used at work (and paid for, at the extremely high price), and the pirated copy at home, away from prying eyes. Software publishers seem to have accepted this status quo, and appear to be happy with it... as are the users. I came to this conclusion after trying to report a spammer (spamming about "CD-ROMS") to the SPA and other similar agencies. Presumably, they never reacted, as the spams kept on coming. Now, I normally wouldn't report someone for piracy, but I figure all means are good for dealing with a spammer :-). Louis ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f61bm$khp@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com> <6f6681$oif@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca> Organization: Plethora . Net - More Net, Less Spam! X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test62 (21 February 1998) From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Lines: 41 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:36:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: guild.plethora.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:36:27 CST In article <6f6681$oif@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca>, Louis RAPHAEL wrote: >I came to this conclusion after trying to report a spammer (spamming >about "CD-ROMS") to the SPA and other similar agencies. Presumably, >they never reacted, as the spams kept on coming. Now, I normally >wouldn't report someone for piracy, but I figure all means are good >for dealing with a spammer :-). Never, ever, deal with the SPA - they themselves spam! They spammed a lot of alleged "FTP admins" a while back. One of the machines that spam came from was *broken in to*, even. (The SPA admits that they sent mail from "other computers", not their own, but will not address the question of whether or not they broke into the octree.com server to send out mail, or whether someone paid by them might have done so. They don't return calls or letters on this, either.) Essentially, they're lying. They don't care about piracy; I've met people who have come to the SPA with *PROOF* of piracy, and the SPA has said "sorry, not big enough to care about", even though it was, say, more software stolen than the company in question was selling at the time. They're hypocrites; they just want to fuck with people, they think they're above the law, and, worst of all, they're spammers. -s -- Copyright '98, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! Not speaking for my employer. Questions on C/Unix? Send mail for help. Visit my new ISP --- More Net, Less Spam! ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:48:40 GMT Organization: . Lines: 15 Message-ID: <351dc5ae.10387992@news.innet.be> References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f43kg$2ct$1@eldritch.dyn.ml.org> <6f472k$750$1@uni00nw.unity.ncsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02a-194-7-46-101.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes cddukes@cc04du.unity.ncsu.edu (Christopher D Dukes) told us > You forgot frequent reinstalls due to bitrot. > Odd ball application behavior due to app installers that like installing > backlevel DLLs. Good thing that you remind me of "bitrot", maybe we can get back to folklore now. Nowadays everybody makes it sound as if MS has the only platforms susceptible to it, but isn't the word or expression "bit rot" older than MS itself? The jargon file explains the meaning, but not the origin of it. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!195.173.173.151!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!greenaum.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: sam@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk (Sam.) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 01:05:13 GMT Message-ID: <35170601.10135667@news.demon.co.uk> References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f27qh$7uv$2@columbine.singnet.com.sg> <351559DD.3ED5@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> <6f550g$rjn@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: sam@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk NNTP-Posting-Host: greenaum.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: greenaum.demon.co.uk [194.222.71.189] X-No-Archive: yes X-Newsreader: TIN / Lines: 21 aax@ix.netcom.com(ANDREW GRYGUS ) wrote: >for products other than the one being pirated - why buy the less >expensive product when you didn't pay for the expensive one? But Linux is free you silly person. Why did however many million people go and spend $70 or whatever it was when Win 95 came out? Because they like it. Because it caters reasonably well for the users it targets. For beginners -> intermediate technical people it fits the bill very well, and has nice features (a send to menu, object orientation) that many osses don't have. It doesn't require me to plough through and understand half a meg of text files to get it to use my friggin video card. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "When I said 'hello' just now, it sounded exactly like Jason. Which isn't surprising. Because I'm him!" - Jason, Havakazoo XXsam@greenaum.demon.co.ukXX http://www.greenaum.demon.co.uk/ ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.mcgill.ca!cs.mcgill.ca!raphael From: Louis RAPHAEL Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: 24 Mar 1998 02:39:47 GMT Organization: Societe pour la promotion du petoncle vert Lines: 34 Message-ID: <6f76dj$87e@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca> References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f61bm$khp@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com> <6f6681$oif@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: willy.cs.mcgill.ca User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971127 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m)) Peter Seebach wrote: [Incidentally, I notice that I typo'ed "excellent"...] : Never, ever, deal with the SPA - they themselves spam! They spammed : a lot of alleged "FTP admins" a while back. One of the machines that spam : came from was *broken in to*, even. (The SPA admits that they sent mail : from "other computers", not their own, but will not address the question : of whether or not they broke into the octree.com server to send out mail, : or whether someone paid by them might have done so. They don't return : calls or letters on this, either.) A quick look though DN confirms this story - yuck! I'll remember that next time, and try to forward wonder-spammer's spams to the cops directly. I doubt that they'll care either, though. : Essentially, they're lying. They don't care about piracy; I've met : people who have come to the SPA with *PROOF* of piracy, and the SPA has : said "sorry, not big enough to care about", even though it was, say, more : software stolen than the company in question was selling at the time. Is it what I say? That they unofficially ignore individual and VSB (very small business) piracy? : They're hypocrites; they just want to fuck with people, they think they're : above the law, and, worst of all, they're spammers. I must admit that I've never liked those types in general... but I thought that I'd found the one and only good use for them... I guess I was wrong. From the way you talk, they appear to be closely apparented to rogue US Federal agents or ATFnicks in mentality, if nothing else... :-( Louis ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> <6f550g$rjn@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <35170601.10135667@news.demon.co.uk> Organization: Plethora . Net - More Net, Less Spam! X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test62 (21 February 1998) From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Lines: 19 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 03:43:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: guild.plethora.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 21:43:30 CST In article <35170601.10135667@news.demon.co.uk>, Sam. wrote: >But Linux is free you silly person. Why did however many million >people go and spend $70 or whatever it was when Win 95 came out? >Because they like it. Because it caters reasonably well for the users >it targets. I disagree. Everyone I know who got Win '95 got it because some new video game required it. -s -- Copyright '98, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! Not speaking for my employer. Questions on C/Unix? Send mail for help. Visit my new ISP --- More Net, Less Spam! ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-fw.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!news.eecs.umich.edu!srvr1.engin.umich.edu!ftit From: ftit@engin.umich.edu (Sergej Roytman) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: 24 Mar 1998 05:35:56 GMT Organization: University of Michigan, Ann Arbor Lines: 22 Message-ID: <6f7gns$5h6@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f27qh$7uv$2@columbine.singnet.com.sg> <351559DD.3ED5@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: spence.ummu.umich.edu In article <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, ANDREW GRYGUS wrote: >In <351559DD.3ED5@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> Adam Stouffer > writes: >> >>Mathias Koerber wrote: >>> >>> Only if you pirate it. Linux, FreeBSD etc and their applications >>> are usually cheaper.., some very much so.. >>Thats why I sell people copies of windows 95 for $3 and NT 4.0 for $5. >As a person with unasailable anti-Microsoft credentials, I say this to >you. Windows95 and NT 4.0 are Microsoft's property, to be >dispositioned as they see fit. If you sell these products for $3 and >$5, you are stealing Microsoft's property and are a criminal - plain >flat out exactly that. Hey, it's not as if Micro$oft has ever had scruples about a little theft here and there... But yeh, aside from that, I agree that piracy is uncool. -- Sergej Roytman ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.wli.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!diablo.theplanet.net!btnet-feed2!btnet!carbon.eu.sun.com!uk-usenet.uk.sun.com!paddington!richardt From: R!ch Teer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 07:39:33 +0000 Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f27qh$7uv$2@columbine.singnet.com.sg> <351559DD.3ED5@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> <6f550g$rjn@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <35170601.10135667@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: paddington.uk.sun.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: richardt@paddington In-Reply-To: <35170601.10135667@news.demon.co.uk> On Tue, 24 Mar 1998, Sam. wrote: > But Linux is free you silly person. Why did however many million > people go and spend $70 or whatever it was when Win 95 came out? > Because they like it. Because it caters reasonably well for the users Nonsense. The fools bought it because they believed what the M$ bullshit^Wmarketing machine told them. -- R!ch Teer (Email is flakey at present: use richardt@keaton.uk.sun.com) If it ain't analogue, it ain't music. #include WWW: www.rkdltd.demon.co.uk ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.xcom.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: 24 Mar 1998 14:09:04 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 21 Message-ID: <6f8eq0$sg7$3@news3.tufts.edu> References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f27qh$7uv$2@columbine.singnet.com.sg> <351559DD.3ED5@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> <6f550g$rjn@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <35170601.10135667@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890748544 29191 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] R!ch Teer (richardt@uk.sun.com) wrote: : On Tue, 24 Mar 1998, Sam. wrote: : > But Linux is free you silly person. Why did however many million : > people go and spend $70 or whatever it was when Win 95 came out? : > Because they like it. Because it caters reasonably well for the users : Nonsense. The fools bought it because they believed what the M$ : bullshit^Wmarketing machine told them. Well that to some extent, plus the games comment someone else made, plus the fact that it promised to be very similar to what they used before but with tweaks, but mainly -- IT'S WHAT EVERYONE ELSE IS GOING TO BE USING so they better get on board. The power of 80-90% office marketshare, or whatever it was then. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com The cat is trying to open the door on the hinge side. I laugh, then realize that I make the same mistake with people, ideas, and doors, too. --New Yorker cartoon ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!203.97.37.6!clear.net.nz!auckland.ac.nz!p.kerr From: p.kerr@auckland.ac.nz (Peter Kerr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:46:14 +1200 Organization: School of Music University of Auckland Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f27qh$7uv$2@columbine.singnet.com.sg> <351559DD.3ED5@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> <6f550g$rjn@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <35170601.10135667@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p.kerr.mus.auckland.ac.nz X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b6 sam@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk wrote: > But Linux is free you silly person. Why did however many million > people go and spend $70 or whatever it was when Win 95 came out? > Because they like it. Because it caters reasonably well for the users > it targets. For beginners -> intermediate technical people it fits the > bill very well, and has nice features (a send to menu, object > orientation) that many osses don't have. It doesn't require me to > plough through and understand half a meg of text files to get it to > use my friggin video card. So, getting back to topic, this must be something that MS does well? I have to agree, sifting through comments in source code to find out how to set preferences is not my cup of tea either... -- Peter Kerr bodger School of Music chandler University of Auckland NZ neo-Luddite ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!diablo.theplanet.net!btnet-feed2!btnet!carbon.eu.sun.com!uk-usenet.uk.sun.com!paddington!richardt From: R!ch Teer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:15:18 +0000 Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f27qh$7uv$2@columbine.singnet.com.sg> <351559DD.3ED5@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> <6f550g$rjn@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <35170601.10135667@news.demon.co.uk> <6f8eq0$sg7$3@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: paddington.uk.sun.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: richardt@paddington In-Reply-To: <6f8eq0$sg7$3@news3.tufts.edu> On 24 Mar 1998, Kirk Is wrote: > Well that to some extent, plus the games comment someone else made, > plus the fact that it promised to be very similar to what they used > before but with tweaks, but mainly -- IT'S WHAT EVERYONE ELSE IS GOING > TO BE USING so they better get on board. The power of 80-90% office > marketshare, or whatever it was then. Reminds me of a quote from a Dilbert book, about business men acting like sheep, and their suits being made from wool... -- R!ch Teer (Email is flakey at present: use richardt@keaton.uk.sun.com) If it ain't analogue, it ain't music. #include WWW: www.rkdltd.demon.co.uk ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil.Franklin.remove.this@ccw.ch Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:17:16 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 32 Message-ID: <3517C06C.5D38AB0E@ccw.ch> References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f43kg$2ct$1@eldritch.dyn.ml.org> <6f472k$750$1@uni00nw.unity.ncsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.27 i486) Christopher D Dukes wrote: > Ben Hutchings wrote: > >Have you taken into account the hidden costs: > >* loss of productivity due to bugs? > >* technical support? > >* training (MS apps are *not* intuitive)? > Are you implying that say Blotus Apps ARE intuitive? > > >* regular hardware upgrades to support application bloat? > > You forgot frequent reinstalls due to bitrot. > Odd ball application behavior due to app installers that like installing > backlevel DLLs. Don't forget the one I consider the worst: employee and sysadmin motivation killing. That air of fatalism when faced with yet annother faillure ("its MS, it behaves that way, we just have to put up with it"). > "Securing a Windows NT system -- Wire Cutters or Thermite?" Wouldn't fdisk leave the computer in an more servicable state (say to install Linux or *BSD or an pdp11 or 1620 emulator? -- private: Neil.Franklin.remove.this@ccw.ch http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ office: franklin.remove.this@arch.ethz.ch http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ Can a Microsoft allergy be claimed on job health insurence? ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: 24 Mar 1998 16:16:48 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 28 Message-ID: <6f8m9g$tql$1@news3.tufts.edu> References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f27qh$7uv$2@columbine.singnet.com.sg> <351559DD.3ED5@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> <6f550g$rjn@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <35170601.10135667@news.demon.co.uk> <6f8eq0$sg7$3@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890756208 30549 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] R!ch Teer (richardt@uk.sun.com) wrote: : On 24 Mar 1998, Kirk Is wrote: : > Well that to some extent, plus the games comment someone else made, : > plus the fact that it promised to be very similar to what they used : > before but with tweaks, but mainly -- IT'S WHAT EVERYONE ELSE IS GOING : > TO BE USING so they better get on board. The power of 80-90% office : > marketshare, or whatever it was then. : Reminds me of a quote from a Dilbert book, about business men acting like : sheep, and their suits being made from wool... Actually, bringing this right back into a folklore vein, it's more like how the old mainframes used to be roughly divided into Business and Scientific specialties, with each set of computers better at a different type of math (Business better at dealing with dollars and cents, Scientific better at floating point arithmetic? I think.) Now, business people all use Microsoft products, while the techie elite stick to their Unix guns. But the funny part is the group of techies who are so aghast at Micosoft's heavy handed and rushed-to-market business tactics that they can't acknowledge what Microsoft does right, things like de facto standards and fairly friendly interfaces. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com "Anything worth doing well is worth doing slowly." --Gypsy Rose Lee ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!128.113.100.15!rpi!cortez.sss.rpi.edu!not-for-mail From: coonec@rpi.edu (Christopher Michael Cooney) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: 24 Mar 1998 18:05:17 GMT Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA Lines: 19 Message-ID: <6f8skt$8cc@newsfeeds.rpi.edu> References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f27qh$7uv$2@columbine.singnet.com.sg> <351559DD.3ED5@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> <6f550g$rjn@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <35170601.10135667@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: cortez.sss.rpi.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Sam. (sam@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk) wrote: : aax@ix.netcom.com(ANDREW GRYGUS ) wrote: : : >for products other than the one being pirated - why buy the less : >expensive product when you didn't pay for the expensive one? : : But Linux is free you silly person. Why did however many million : people go and spend $70 or whatever it was when Win 95 came out? Because it was the default choice. It came with their computer, so they didn't have to install it. -chris -- coonec@rpi.edu Comp. Science, Blah Blah Sparc MIPS Blah Walking through the basement of Fuller Labs wearing futuristic body armor and pushing a variable-geometry motorcycle raises eyebrows. Telling students that this is the true power of UNIX doesn't help. -UF ###### Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: knews 0.9.8 Reply-To: jamstar@glasscity.net Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow, INC References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f27qh$7uv$2@columbine.singnet.com.sg> <351559DD.3ED5@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> <6f550g$rjn@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <35170601.10135667@news.demon.co.uk> From: jamstar@freddie.jamstar.com (Keven R. Pittsinger) Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.13.12.227 Message-ID: <3518ab43.0@news.glasscity.net> Date: 25 Mar 98 06:59:15 GMT Lines: 53 Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!208.13.0.3!news.glasscity.net!208.13.12.227 In article <35170601.10135667@news.demon.co.uk>, sam@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk (Sam.) writes: > aax@ix.netcom.com(ANDREW GRYGUS ) wrote: > >>for products other than the one being pirated - why buy the less >>expensive product when you didn't pay for the expensive one? > > But Linux is free you silly person. Why did however many million > people go and spend $70 or whatever it was when Win 95 came out? > Because they like it. Because it caters reasonably well for the users > it targets. For beginners -> intermediate technical people it fits the > bill very well, and has nice features (a send to menu, object > orientation) that many osses don't have. It doesn't require me to > plough through and understand half a meg of text files to get it to > use my friggin video card. > 1. Microsoft got every assembler of Intel-oid computers to install Win95 on every computer they put out the door, then spent millions informing anybody who'd slow down for half a second that Win95 was indeed shipping. The cost of the OS was passed to the consumer by the assembler of the computer. 2. Microsoft announced withdrawl of support for Windows 3.x about the same time. 3. Major software houses followed MS's lead in dropping support of the old 16 bit apps and advertised their 'new and improved' products that would work *only* on Win95. This manuver guaranteed them revenue for 'upgrades' that in most cases, were entirely unnecessary. Who *REALLY* needs a 32 bit word processor to write a simple bloody letter??? 4. In order to be able to use these 'upgrades', Win 3.x users were *FORCED* to 'upgrade' to Win95, and then to buy those other 'upgraded' applications. Were these moves *VOLUNTARY* on the part of the end users? Not a chance. Did this move make MS a *PILE* of money? Absolutely. Not only did they get money for Win95, but they ALSO got royalties from any software house that writes their wares to work with Win95. Is Win95 more 'stable' or easier to work with than Win 3.x? As far as stability goes, it's about the same. As far as useability goes, it's a personal opinion call. For me, it's about the same as Win 3.x. Some people like it. Other people think it's the Antichrist. Windows became a standard because of intense marketting and market penetration. The Windows-based applications that were written became standards because there was a consistent platform to run them on. Technical issues ignored, Windows was a marketting coup and a cash cow for Bill. And the consumers are still betatesting it at 120/per. Keven ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!diablo.theplanet.net!btnet-feed2!btnet!carbon.eu.sun.com!uk-usenet.uk.sun.com!paddington!richardt From: R!ch Teer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 07:45:18 +0000 Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f27qh$7uv$2@columbine.singnet.com.sg> <351559DD.3ED5@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> <6f550g$rjn@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <35170601.10135667@news.demon.co.uk> <6f8eq0$sg7$3@news3.tufts.edu> <6f8m9g$tql$1@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: paddington.uk.sun.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: richardt@paddington In-Reply-To: <6f8m9g$tql$1@news3.tufts.edu> On 24 Mar 1998, Kirk Is wrote: > But the funny part is the group of techies who are so aghast at > Micosoft's heavy handed and rushed-to-market business tactics that they > can't acknowledge what Microsoft does right, things like de facto > standards and fairly friendly interfaces. De facto standards? Possibly - at the cost of established ones. MS Java, anyone? How about MS' equivalent of NFS, that does almost the same thing, yet doesn't inter-operate with it. Or how about the "standard" Word document format - you know, the one that changes in each release? M$ deliberately ignore established standards, and attempt to replace them with their own, proprietory "standards". -- R!ch Teer (Email is flakey at present: use richardt@keaton.uk.sun.com) If it ain't analogue, it ain't music. #include WWW: www.rkdltd.demon.co.uk ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!SnUK10!supernews.xara.net!xara.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail From: jk@langley.softwright.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:33:12 -0600 Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 27 Message-ID: <6fbevs$i19$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f27qh$7uv$2@columbine.singnet.com.sg> <351559DD.3ED5@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> <6f550g$rjn@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <35170601.10135667@news.demon.co.uk> <3518ab43.0@news.glasscity.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.129.107.143 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Mar 25 17:33:12 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.0; Windows NT) In article <3518ab43.0@news.glasscity.net>, jamstar@glasscity.net wrote: > > Did this move make MS a *PILE* of money? Absolutely. Not only did they > get money for Win95, but they ALSO got royalties from any software house > that writes their wares to work with Win95. Nope; you don't pay royalties or a licensing fee to develop software using the Win32 API. Pay through the nose for tools, training, and developer support, yes... > Is Win95 more 'stable' or > easier to work with than Win 3.x? That's an opinion thing. Personally, I came into the Windows world from 5+ years of Mac and Unix experience and I find Win95 *much* easier and more pleasant to work with than Win31. I would say, though, that from a development point of view the Win32 API is easier -- flat 32-bit API, no need to worry about memory models etc -- and a richer than the Win16 API. -- James Kew -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading ###### From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: 25 Mar 1998 14:26:09 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 25 Message-ID: <6fb461$kmm$4@news3.tufts.edu> References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f27qh$7uv$2@columbine.singnet.com.sg> <351559DD.3ED5@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> <6f550g$rjn@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <35170601.10135667@news.demon.co.uk> <6f8eq0$sg7$3@news3.tufts.edu> <6f8m9g$tql$1@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890835969 21206 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!news.freedom2surf.net!colt.net!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael R!ch Teer (richardt@uk.sun.com) wrote: : On 24 Mar 1998, Kirk Is wrote: : > But the funny part is the group of techies who are so aghast at : > Micosoft's heavy handed and rushed-to-market business tactics that they : > can't acknowledge what Microsoft does right, things like de facto : > standards and fairly friendly interfaces. : De facto standards? Possibly - at the cost of established ones. : MS Java, anyone? How about MS' equivalent of NFS, that does almost : the same thing, yet doesn't inter-operate with it. Or how about : the "standard" Word document format - you know, the one that changes : in each release? M$ deliberately ignore established standards, and : attempt to replace them with their own, proprietory "standards". I was thinking de facto standards for interfaces, though MS is happy to push "the latest MS word edition" as the de facto standard ;-) You do have a point, and that's one of the more unpleasant parts of MS in general. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com "Bad artists borrow, good artists steal" --Picasso ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!151.201.0.37!world6.bellatlantic.net!news From: "George Gray" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:28:08 -0500 Organization: Bell Atlantic Internet Solutions Lines: 28 Message-ID: <6fblsg$t46@world6.bellatlantic.net> References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f27qh$7uv$2@columbine.singnet.com.sg> <351559DD.3ED5@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> <6f550g$rjn@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <35170601.10135667@news.demon.co.uk> <6f8eq0$sg7$3@news3.tufts.edu> <6f8m9g$tql$1@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 2093408.bellatlantic.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Big BAD Microsoft! Shame on them for FORCING EVERYONE to go the Windows way! I'll atest to the fact they held a gun to my head and forced me buy Windows 95. Oh...I forgot, they MAKE me write Win32 apps too! They just about broke my arm on that one. Yeah, they be bad. Reno should bazooka them! Seriously, folks, get a grip. They are a successfull company that knows how to market. So what if they, at times, use questionable means to do so. Who hasn't? I seem to recall an incident in 1948 involving a modest company trying to make a better car. Tucker was the name. The 'big three' in Detroit conspired against Tucker. What happened? Tucker won the court case but was still out of business. The big three still came out smelling like roses. No one cared. Why the hell should I care how Microsoft markets it's stuff? At least they can. If a Microsoft product flops (MS BOB comes to mind) they don't go running to Uncle Sam to complain (i.e. Sun, Netscape) about unfair competition. The court says MS has to supply an OEM version of Win95 without IE hoping 'competition' would take place. What's happened? The PC makers are STILL bundling IE and Win95. BFD. I would really like to meet someone who HAS NEVER lied or cheated or done something questionable to get what they wanted. Everyone does it (and no, that does not make right) and EVERY company does it. Time will catch up to Microsoft. They probably have five more really good and dominant years left before the whole industry changes. Who knows, the next Gates maybe your neighbor. Something to think about the next time you go out to get your paper... R!ch Teer wrote in message ... > ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!151.201.0.37!world6.bellatlantic.net!news From: "George Gray" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:28:08 -0500 Organization: Bell Atlantic Internet Solutions Lines: 28 Message-ID: <6fbltt$t8t@world6.bellatlantic.net> References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f27qh$7uv$2@columbine.singnet.com.sg> <351559DD.3ED5@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> <6f550g$rjn@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <35170601.10135667@news.demon.co.uk> <6f8eq0$sg7$3@news3.tufts.edu> <6f8m9g$tql$1@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 2093408.bellatlantic.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Big BAD Microsoft! Shame on them for FORCING EVERYONE to go the Windows way! I'll atest to the fact they held a gun to my head and forced me buy Windows 95. Oh...I forgot, they MAKE me write Win32 apps too! They just about broke my arm on that one. Yeah, they be bad. Reno should bazooka them! Seriously, folks, get a grip. They are a successfull company that knows how to market. So what if they, at times, use questionable means to do so. Who hasn't? I seem to recall an incident in 1948 involving a modest company trying to make a better car. Tucker was the name. The 'big three' in Detroit conspired against Tucker. What happened? Tucker won the court case but was still out of business. The big three still came out smelling like roses. No one cared. Why the hell should I care how Microsoft markets it's stuff? At least they can. If a Microsoft product flops (MS BOB comes to mind) they don't go running to Uncle Sam to complain (i.e. Sun, Netscape) about unfair competition. The court says MS has to supply an OEM version of Win95 without IE hoping 'competition' would take place. What's happened? The PC makers are STILL bundling IE and Win95. BFD. I would really like to meet someone who HAS NEVER lied or cheated or done something questionable to get what they wanted. Everyone does it (and no, that does not make right) and EVERY company does it. Time will catch up to Microsoft. They probably have five more really good and dominant years left before the whole industry changes. Who knows, the next Gates maybe your neighbor. Something to think about the next time you go out to get your paper... R!ch Teer wrote in message ... > ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!europa.clark.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!diablo.theplanet.net!btnet-feed2!btnet!carbon.eu.sun.com!uk-usenet.uk.sun.com!paddington!richardt From: R!ch Teer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:40:00 +0000 Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f27qh$7uv$2@columbine.singnet.com.sg> <351559DD.3ED5@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> <6f550g$rjn@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <35170601.10135667@news.demon.co.uk> <6f8eq0$sg7$3@news3.tufts.edu> <6f8m9g$tql$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fb461$kmm$4@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: paddington.uk.sun.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: richardt@paddington In-Reply-To: <6fb461$kmm$4@news3.tufts.edu> On 25 Mar 1998, Kirk Is wrote: > You do have a point, and that's one of the more unpleasant parts of MS in > general. It's M$' attitude (like this, and others) that make me boycott their products, and why I encourage everyone else to do the same. See www.vcnet.com/bms for more. -- R!ch Teer (Email is flakey at present: use richardt@keaton.uk.sun.com) If it ain't analogue, it ain't music. #include WWW: www.rkdltd.demon.co.uk ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:51:32 GMT Organization: . Lines: 26 Message-ID: <351d8fde.18802665@news.innet.be> References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f27qh$7uv$2@columbine.singnet.com.sg> <351559DD.3ED5@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> <6f550g$rjn@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <35170601.10135667@news.demon.co.uk> <3518ab43.0@news.glasscity.net> <6fbevs$i19$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02a-194-7-47-115.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes jk@langley.softwright.co.uk told us > In article <3518ab43.0@news.glasscity.net>, > jamstar@glasscity.net wrote: > > > > Did this move make MS a *PILE* of money? Absolutely. Not only did they > > get money for Win95, but they ALSO got royalties from any software house > > that writes their wares to work with Win95. > > Nope; you don't pay royalties or a licensing fee to develop software > using the Win32 API. Pay through the nose for tools, training, and developer > support, yes... Oh, where are the good old Digital days. Those cheap PDP11 OSes and compilers... And a little later, the TRS-80: you already had a good (and I did say /good/, not a hobbyist one) third-party C compiler for - how much was it? About the same as what you now pay for an SMDN enterprise subscription (including Visual C++ and a couple of other languages, plus win95, plus NT client, plus win98 betas and the real thing if it ever comes out)? That is, if you didn't want the library sources. Adding those made it cost more. ###### Date: 26 Mar 98 12:43:31 -0800 From: "Charlie Gibbs" Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) References: <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> <6f550g$rjn@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <35170601.10135667@news.demon.co.uk> <351a57c2.4405483@news.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <507.389T1585T7635402@sky.bus.com> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Lines: 17 X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.244.247.7 Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!204.244.4.2!news.westel.com!news.skybus.com!204.244.247.129 In article <351a57c2.4405483@news.demon.co.uk> sam@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk (Sam.) writes: >They've also got a good idea of what people want, That's easy if you're the one telling them what they want. Or did they spend $300 million on the roll-out of Win95 for some other reason? >and what they can use. Whatever M$ decides to give them. No more, no less. "If we don't have it, you don't need it." -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!greenaum.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: sam@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk (Sam.) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:27:32 GMT Message-ID: <351a57c2.4405483@news.demon.co.uk> References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f27qh$7uv$2@columbine.singnet.com.sg> <351559DD.3ED5@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> <6f550g$rjn@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <35170601.10135667@news.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk NNTP-Posting-Host: greenaum.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: greenaum.demon.co.uk [194.222.71.189] X-No-Archive: yes X-Newsreader: TIN / Lines: 27 p.kerr@auckland.ac.nz (Peter Kerr) wrote: >So, getting back to topic, this must be something that MS does well? Yes, as someone else mentioned they do a (fairly) good job of user interfaces, they manage to come up with something usable at least 50% of the time. They've also got a good idea of what people want, and what they can use. In Linux I had the potential to run X in any video mode I cared to invent, if I worked out the scan frequency and vertical blank period on a piece of paper. In Windows you can't do that, but they must have realised nobody in their right mind wants to anyway. Stuff like the Start and Send to menus being exactly equivalent to directories, and the fairly flexible shortcut system speed a lot of things up, newbies can just leave it alone and let their installers take care of it, tinkerers can mess about with it to mould the system around themselves. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "When I said 'hello' just now, it sounded exactly like Jason. Which isn't surprising. Because I'm him!" - Jason, Havakazoo XXsam@greenaum.demon.co.ukXX http://www.greenaum.demon.co.uk/ ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.idt.net!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!greenaum.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: sam@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk (Sam.) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:27:35 GMT Message-ID: <351a57c5.4408436@news.demon.co.uk> References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f27qh$7uv$2@columbine.singnet.com.sg> <351559DD.3ED5@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> <6f550g$rjn@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <35170601.10135667@news.demon.co.uk> <6f8skt$8cc@newsfeeds.rpi.edu> Reply-To: sam@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk NNTP-Posting-Host: greenaum.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: greenaum.demon.co.uk [194.222.71.189] X-No-Archive: yes X-Newsreader: TIN / Lines: 18 coonec@rpi.edu (Christopher Michael Cooney) wrote: >: But Linux is free you silly person. Why did however many million >: people go and spend $70 or whatever it was when Win 95 came out? > >Because it was the default choice. It came with their computer, so >they didn't have to install it. I was referring to the day in 1995 when it launched, and people who didn't have it went and bought it, a few million of them. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "When I said 'hello' just now, it sounded exactly like Jason. Which isn't surprising. Because I'm him!" - Jason, Havakazoo XXsam@greenaum.demon.co.ukXX http://www.greenaum.demon.co.uk/ ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!news.eecs.umich.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!newsstand.tc.umn.edu!krueger From: krueger@cs.umn.edu (Alan Krueger) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: 26 Mar 1998 15:36:01 GMT Organization: Computer Science Department, University of Minnesota Lines: 26 Message-ID: <6fdsl1$kpf@epx.cis.umn.edu> References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <35170601.10135667@news.demon.co.uk> <6f8skt$8cc@newsfeeds.rpi.edu> <351a57c5.4408436@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: seneca.cs.umn.edu In article <351a57c5.4408436@news.demon.co.uk>, Sam. wrote: > coonec@rpi.edu (Christopher Michael Cooney) wrote: > > >: But Linux is free you silly person. Why did however many million > >: people go and spend $70 or whatever it was when Win 95 came out? > > > >Because it was the default choice. It came with their computer, so > >they didn't have to install it. > > I was referring to the day in 1995 when it launched, and people who > didn't have it went and bought it, a few million of them. And, IIRC, some in the wee hours of the morning as certain stores ( stayed open late | opened really early ) for those who REALLY wanted to get it Right Now. Of course, all those Trendy, Sexy people were the ones who didn't realize why one should *wait* a bit and let those same Trendy, Sexy people first shake out the multitude of bugs inherent in any initial product release. -- W. Alan Krueger | http://bounce.to/alan-krueger Software Engineer |------------------------------------------------------- EXi Corporation | Support the anti-spam bill - http://www.cauce.org/ www.exicorp.com | Why don't spammers use Web sites like the rest of us? ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!server3.netnews.ja.net!news.ox.ac.uk!not-for-mail From: Ben Hutchings Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: 26 Mar 1998 18:49:29 -0000 Organization: Not organised Lines: 17 Sender: womble@eldritch.dyn.ml.org Message-ID: <6fe7vp$6v8$1@eldritch.dyn.ml.org> References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f8skt$8cc@newsfeeds.rpi.edu> <351a57c5.4408436@news.demon.co.uk> <6fdsl1$kpf@epx.cis.umn.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: max57.public.ox.ac.uk In article <6fdsl1$kpf@epx.cis.umn.edu>, Alan Krueger wrote: >Of course, all those Trendy, Sexy people were the ones who didn't realize >why one should *wait* a bit and let those same Trendy, Sexy people first >shake out the multitude of bugs inherent in any initial product release. As if Microsoft didn't *know* of hundreds of bugs in Windows 95 release 1 that it hadn't managed to fix in time... OEM release 2 fixed a lot of the bugs, as it happens. This may explain the widely varying reports of Win95 (in)stability. -- Ben Hutchings | ICOA User Rep election 1998: http://www.jms.org/election/ email/finger: m95bwh@ecs.ox.ac.uk | web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~worc0223/ Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat. - John Lehman ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-dc.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.idt.net!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!greenaum.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: sam@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk (Sam.) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 23:08:26 GMT Message-ID: <351ada69.3217828@news.demon.co.uk> References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f27qh$7uv$2@columbine.singnet.com.sg> <351559DD.3ED5@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> <6f550g$rjn@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <35170601.10135667@news.demon.co.uk> <3518ab43.0@news.glasscity.net> Reply-To: sam@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk NNTP-Posting-Host: greenaum.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: greenaum.demon.co.uk [194.222.71.189] X-No-Archive: yes X-Newsreader: TIN / Lines: 37 jamstar@freddie.jamstar.com (Keven R. Pittsinger) wrote: >3. Major software houses followed MS's lead in dropping support of the >old 16 bit apps and advertised their 'new and improved' products that >would work *only* on Win95. This manuver guaranteed them revenue for >'upgrades' that in most cases, were entirely unnecessary. Who *REALLY* >needs a 32 bit word processor to write a simple bloody letter??? Obviously people thought they did. I used W3.1 up til the end of last year, and changed because I was sick of not being able to run Netscape, Real Audio, and anything that needed any CPU power or memory without it crashing every 5 minutes and locking the computer up during heavy disk access. Using modern progs and modern hardware on W3.1 is a real strain, all the bad decisions they made in it are really badly exposed. Using the same programs, or the 32-bit versions, I have no problems. >4. In order to be able to use these 'upgrades', Win 3.x users were >*FORCED* to 'upgrade' to Win95, and then to buy those other 'upgraded' >applications. Yes but where doesn't that happen? It's apparently the way computers are that things get obsolete. >Windows became a standard because of intense marketting and market >penetration. No really, show me something that fits the same needs better for however many million people. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "When I said 'hello' just now, it sounded exactly like Jason. Which isn't surprising. Because I'm him!" - Jason, Havakazoo XXsam@greenaum.demon.co.ukXX http://www.greenaum.demon.co.uk/ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f8skt$8cc@newsfeeds.rpi.edu> <351a57c5.4408436@news.demon.co.uk> <6fdsl1$kpf@epx.cis.umn.edu> Organization: Wizvax Communications, Troy, NY. USA From: multics@wizvax.wizvax.net (Richard Shetron) NNTP-Posting-Host: wizvax.wizvax.net Message-ID: <351ae1b0.0@news.wizvax.net> Date: 26 Mar 98 23:16:00 GMT Lines: 19 Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!newsfeed.wizvax.net!news.wizvax.net!wizvax.wizvax.net!multics In article <6fdsl1$kpf@epx.cis.umn.edu>, Alan Krueger wrote: [snip] >And, IIRC, some in the wee hours of the morning as certain stores >( stayed open late | opened really early ) for those who REALLY wanted >to get it Right Now. > >Of course, all those Trendy, Sexy people were the ones who didn't realize >why one should *wait* a bit and let those same Trendy, Sexy people first >shake out the multitude of bugs inherent in any initial product release. > >-- > W. Alan Krueger | http://bounce.to/alan-krueger And one of the local news shows did live coverage and even followed a happy customer home to see how easy the upgrade was. After several hours of MS tech support, they followed the unhappy customer back to the store where they returned the software that failed to run on TV ;) ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!news-feed.ifi.uio.no!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!204.71.76.137!news.campus.mci.net!mwfunk From: mwfunk@uncc.campus.mci.net (Michael Funk) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: 27 Mar 1998 10:21:37 GMT Organization: CampusMCI Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f27qh$7uv$2@columbine.singnet.com.sg> <351559DD.3ED5@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> <6f550g$rjn@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <35170601.10135667@news.demon.co.uk> <6f8eq0$sg7$3@news3.tufts.edu> <6f8m9g$tql$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fblsg$t46@world6.bellatlantic.net> Reply-To: mwfunk@uncc.campus.mci.net NNTP-Posting-Host: s20-pm14.snaustel.campus.mci.net X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) George Gray wrote: >Big BAD Microsoft! Shame on them for FORCING EVERYONE to go the Windows way! >I'll atest to the fact they held a gun to my head and forced me buy Windows >95. Oh...I forgot, they MAKE me write Win32 apps too! They just about >broke my arm on that one. Yeah, they be bad. Reno should bazooka them! > >Seriously, folks, get a grip. They are a successfull company that knows how >to market. So what if they, at times, use questionable means to do so. Who >hasn't? I seem to recall an incident in 1948 involving a modest company >trying to make a better car. Tucker was the name. The 'big three' in >Detroit conspired against Tucker. What happened? Tucker won the court case >but was still out of business. The big three still came out smelling like >roses. No one cared. Why the hell should I care how Microsoft markets it's >stuff? Just listen to yourself! Obviously (for whatever incomprehensible, ungodly reason) you *like* MS and their products, and even like developing on them. Going back to the (actually pretty good) Tucker analogy, you would probably feel quite a bit differently about it if you were a big Tucker fan. You are the modern day equivalent of someone who was actually a big fan of the "big three", fully acknowledged their sliminess, didn't like Tucker all that much (or more likely knew nothing about it), and said "Who cares?" because your side came out on top. You are blatantly basing your opinion on "They're on my side, therefore I don't care what they do" than on any objective analysis of the situation. Your natural response to such an accusation is probably something along the lines of sour grapes and all of that, but believe it or not some people base their opinions on reason rather than any us vs. them mentality, or some simplistic notion of the intrinsic correctness of laissez-faire capitalism. I would also wager that you've never used/developed for a non-MS environment to any reasonable degree, and perhaps didn't even get starting programming until well into the Dark Ages (the modern era of the Windows monopoly). Mike ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!europa.clark.net!141.211.144.13!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!news.iastate.edu!rhawkins From: rhawkins@iastate.edu (Rick Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: 28 Mar 1998 19:50:42 GMT Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa USA Lines: 28 Message-ID: <6fjkai$2i8$1@news.iastate.edu> References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> <6f550g$rjn@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pv2086.vincent.iastate.edu In article <6f550g$rjn@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com>, ANDREW GRYGUS wrote: >In <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> >sam@greenaum.demon.co.ARSE!ARSE!ARSE!uk (Sam.) writes: >>I thought piracy was supposed to *increase* prices. Make your mind up, >>you can't have it both ways. >Piracy increasess the price of the >>product being pirated<< >(development amortized over fewer sales). Piracy >>destroys sales<< >for products other than the one being pirated - why buy the less >expensive product when you didn't pay for the expensive one? Why buy >the better product when you didn't pay for the "good enough" one? Not to defend the scum who steal software by piracy, but for a monopoly product, or even for monopolistic competition (distingising features for different brands, which would apply to most software), piracy, within limits, could actually bring the price down. By increasing competition, it reduces the ability to charge the monopoly premium. But it's still wrong. rick -- R E HAWKINS rhawkins@iastate.edu These opinions will not be those of ISU until they pay my retainer. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!newsfeed.sgi.net!news.sgi.net!not-for-mail Message-ID: <352153D7.72FE@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> From: Adam Stouffer X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> <6f550g$rjn@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <6fjkai$2i8$1@news.iastate.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 20:29:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: dap-144-81.monroe.sgi.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 15:29:56 EST Rick Hawkins wrote: > > > Not to defend the scum who steal software by piracy, but for a monopoly > product, or even for monopolistic competition (distingising features for > different brands, which would apply to most software), piracy, within > limits, could actually bring the price down. By increasing competition, > it reduces the ability to charge the monopoly premium. > > But it's still wrong. Thats what I believe. I sell win95 cds for $3 and NT4 cd's for $5. Pretty soon you can buy NT server off me for $10. Adam -- _________________________ | | | Remove the NO-SPAM | | | _________________________ ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!server5.netnews.ja.net!server3.netnews.ja.net!doc.ic.ac.uk!not-for-mail From: David Wragg Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: 31 Mar 1998 22:54:49 +0000 Organization: Dept. of Computing, Imperial College, University of London, UK. Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> <6f550g$rjn@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <6fjkai$2i8$1@news.iastate.edu> <352153D7.72FE@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: getsetgo.doc.ic.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.3 - "Vatican City" Adam Stouffer writes: > > Thats what I believe. I sell win95 cds for $3 and NT4 cd's for $5. > Pretty soon > you can buy NT server off me for $10. > I find this reprehensible. What kind of person would charge $5 for a change of two registry entries? -- Dave Wragg ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.maz.net!newsfeed.ecrc.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail From: jk@langley.softwright.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 03:07:37 -0600 Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 22 Message-ID: <6ft02g$g23$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> <6f550g$rjn@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <6fjkai$2i8$1@news.iastate.edu> <352153D7.72FE@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.129.107.143 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Apr 01 09:07:37 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.0; Windows NT) In article <352153D7.72FE@NO-SPAM.sgi.net>, Adam Stouffer wrote: > [for the second time] > I sell win95 cds for $3 and NT4 cd's for $5. > Pretty soon you can buy NT server off me for $10. Regardless of your feelings for Microsoft, if these are not original CDs you are breaking the law. You've also repeatedly stated this in a public forum and your posts are archived publicly on DejaNews: http://search.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=339568611 -- James Kew SSA Softwright -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp2.dejanews.com!not-for-mail From: jk@langley.softwright.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 03:07:37 -0600 Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 22 Message-ID: <6ft02a$kke$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> <6f550g$rjn@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <6fjkai$2i8$1@news.iastate.edu> <352153D7.72FE@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.129.107.143 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Apr 01 09:07:37 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.0; Windows NT) In article <352153D7.72FE@NO-SPAM.sgi.net>, Adam Stouffer wrote: > [for the second time] > I sell win95 cds for $3 and NT4 cd's for $5. > Pretty soon you can buy NT server off me for $10. Regardless of your feelings for Microsoft, if these are not original CDs you are breaking the law. You've also repeatedly stated this in a public forum and your posts are archived publicly on DejaNews: http://search.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=339568611 -- James Kew SSA Softwright -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-fw.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!server3.netnews.ja.net!news.ox.ac.uk!not-for-mail From: Ben Hutchings Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: 1 Apr 1998 05:24:32 +0100 Organization: Not organised Lines: 18 Sender: womble@eldritch.dyn.ml.org Message-ID: <6fsfi0$m9$1@eldritch.dyn.ml.org> References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6fjkai$2i8$1@news.iastate.edu> <352153D7.72FE@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: max97.public.ox.ac.uk In article , David Wragg wrote: >Adam Stouffer writes: >> >> Thats what I believe. I sell win95 cds for $3 and NT4 cd's for $5. >> Pretty soon >> you can buy NT server off me for $10. >> > >I find this reprehensible. What kind of person would charge $5 for a >change of two registry entries? There's more software with it, too. Probably spreads over several CDs. -- Ben Hutchings | ICOA User Rep election 1998: http://www.jms.org/election/ email/finger: m95bwh@ecs.ox.ac.uk | web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~worc0223/ To err is human; to really foul things up requires a computer. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.wli.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!venus.sun.com!uk-usenet.uk.sun.com!paddington!richardt From: R!ch Teer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What Microsoft Does Well (was Re: What does Micro$oft do well) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 07:37:03 +0100 Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <351314E7.167EB0E7@cisco.com> <6f44g8$kcg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <35160817.12719045@news.demon.co.uk> <6f550g$rjn@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <6fjkai$2i8$1@news.iastate.edu> <352153D7.72FE@NO-SPAM.sgi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: paddington.uk.sun.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: richardt@paddington To: David Wragg In-Reply-To: On 31 Mar 1998, David Wragg wrote: > Adam Stouffer writes: > > > > Thats what I believe. I sell win95 cds for $3 and NT4 cd's for $5. > > Pretty soon > > you can buy NT server off me for $10. > > > > I find this reprehensible. What kind of person would charge $5 for a > change of two registry entries? Obviously, he's charging for his time. :-) -- R!ch Teer (Email is flakey at present: use richardt@keaton.uk.sun.com) If it ain't analogue, it ain't music. #include WWW: www.rkdltd.demon.co.uk