From: rhawkins@iastate.edu (Rick Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: vi hints & emacs folklore Date: 20 Feb 1998 16:50:17 GMT Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa USA Lines: 42 Message-ID: <6ckc89$uve$1@news.iastate.edu> References: <6cgh2e$gh1$2@mirv.unsw.edu.au> <6ci7iv$ta3$10@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6cjdbv$fao$1@news.kth.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: pv2086.vincent.iastate.edu Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!europa.clark.net!206.229.87.25!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!news.iastate.edu!rhawkins In article <6cjdbv$fao$1@news.kth.se>, Björn Turesson wrote: >In <6ci7iv$ta3$10@irk.zetnet.co.uk> lisard@zetnet.co.uk writes: >>On 1998-02-19 khchung@maths.unsw.EDU.AU(KinHoongCHUNG) said: >> :I shall now mention EMACS---Eight megs and constantly swapping. Let >> :the religious war begin! >>we also heard "eventually malloc()s all core storage" as another >>acronym... any more for any more? >Esc-Meta-Alt-Ctrls-Shift? >In spite of that, emacs is the first thing I install when I get to >a new computer (ok, ok _after_ the os) OK, to turn to folklore :) As an undergraduate, the computer room TA's, and some of the computer nerds, held emacs in awe. Mostly for being forbidden fruit, it seemed. Regular users had to use the tops-20 line editor. the TA's & operators, however, gleefully used emacs, while the nerds tried to find a way. It just hogged too much system resources to let mere mortals use it. And the way it pauses on a 400mhz alpha . . . (ok, that's probably more coming from a slow afs cell, but still . . .) Anyway, i find myself using vi on relatively small stuff, and emacs on a) large files, and b) program code. It's auto-indention, and, especially, the color coding, save lots of time for me--tends to highlight the types of typos i make. Now if only vi would color-code my F90 (i *knew* there was a reason for color displays :) rick -- R E HAWKINS rhawkins@iastate.edu These opinions will not be those of ISU until they pay my retainer. ###### From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: vi hints & emacs folklore Date: 20 Feb 1998 21:58:55 GMT Message-ID: <6ckuav$eq$8@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <6ckc89$uve$1@news.iastate.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-093.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 48 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1998-02-20 rhawkins@iastate.edu(RickHawkins) said: :As an undergraduate, the computer room TA's, and some of the :computer nerds, held emacs in awe. Mostly for being forbidden :fruit, it seemed. Regular users had to use the tops-20 line editor. :the TA's & operators, however, gleefully used emacs, while the :nerds tried to find a way. It just hogged too much system :resources to let mere mortals use it. any vis on those machines? does anyone still use a line editor btw? *why*? a friend of ours at work has suggested that people should learn to program using line editors, as it would encourage economy of thought and code... (his concepts; we think code should be written in html. ;> ) :And the way it pauses on a 400mhz alpha . . . (ok, that's probably :more coming from a slow afs cell, but still . . .) well, you get what you pay for... :Anyway, i find myself using vi on relatively small stuff, and emacs :on a) large files, and :b) program code. It's auto-indention, and, especially, the color :coding, save lots of time for me--tends to highlight the types of :typos i make. colour coding? as in syntax highlighting? the latest vim has this, iwrc... and it's free, and it's significantly smaller than emacs. btw, are the original emacs - the teco ones - available anywhere, and would they run on the pc clone of teco that is floating around the ethers? :Now if only vi would color-code my F90 (i *knew* there was a reason :for color displays :) we're still looking for the editor that will colour-code forth... well, looking for the excuse to write it, anyway. :> for some reason, we don't tend to use colour-coding with any other language, not even html or perl. must be too used to vanilla unix vi... or vanilla dos nye. :> -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: alderson@netcom16.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) Subject: Re: vi hints & emacs folklore In-Reply-To: lisard@zetnet.co.uk's message of 20 Feb 1998 21:58:55 GMT Message-ID: Sender: alderson@netcom16.netcom.com Reply-To: alderson@netcom.com Organization: NETCOM On-line services References: <6ckc89$uve$1@news.iastate.edu> <6ckuav$eq$8@irk.zetnet.co.uk> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 22:37:24 GMT Lines: 28 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news.clark.net!europa.clark.net!208.134.241.18!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.214.99.1!ix.netcom.com!netcom16!alderson In article <6ckuav$eq$8@irk.zetnet.co.uk> lisard@zetnet.co.uk writes: [referring to Tops-20 systems:] >any vis on those machines? Ye gods and little fishes, no! You had several versions of TECO, including two different display-oriented versions, EDIT (aka SOS), EMACS (built on top of a TECO), MUSE (a really sucky editor that some of my acquaintances thought was the be-all and end-all), and a number of screen-oriented editors available from the DECUS library. Why would you need *another* editor with all that? ;-> >btw, are the original emacs - the teco ones - available anywhere, and would >they run on the pc clone of teco that is floating around the ethers? We still supply TECO-based EMACS on the Toad-1 (a PDP-10 running Tops-20); I'm the maintainer of the sources (written in MIDAS, and still compilable on ITS, if there were any ITS boxes around). No, it won't run on any of the TECO variants that will run on an Intel archi- tecture, nor a PDP-8 nor a PDP-11 nor a VMS box: The hackers at MIT put all sorts of wonderful stuff into their TECO (including RMS's ^R mode, the basis of EMACS) which assumes 36-bit words and 9- or 12-bit bytes. -- Rich Alderson Last LOTS Tops-20 Systems Programmer, 1984-1991 last name @ XKL dot COM Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170) ###### From: abigail@fnx.com (Abigail) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: vi hints & emacs folklore Date: 21 Feb 1998 03:10:00 GMT Organization: FNX Ltd, Intelligent Risk Management Lines: 15 Message-ID: <6clgi8$kk8$1@client2.news.psi.net> References: <6ckc89$uve$1@news.iastate.edu> <6ckuav$eq$8@irk.zetnet.co.uk> Reply-To: abigail@fnx.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.220.93.3 X-Date: 1635 September 1993 X-HTTP: http://cthulhu.mandrake.net/%7Eabigail/ X-Revision: $Revision: 1.2 $ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 76 2E 82 7A 69 93 5F 97 AE 01 80 75 67 F3 45 D0 X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.3.2 UNIX) Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news.vt.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsrelay.netins.net!nntp.kreonet.re.kr!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!psinntp!pubxfer.news.psi.net!abigail lisard@zetnet.co.uk (lisard@zetnet.co.uk) wrote on 1634 September 1993 in : ++ ++ ++ does anyone still use a line editor btw? *why*? Yes, I do. When you are using a MUD, bandwidth is one of the limiting resources. Allowing people to use a screen oriented editor means that for every keystroke a package is send. Abigail ###### From: tep@galt.sdsc.edu (Tom Perrine) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: vi hints & emacs folklore Date: 21 Feb 1998 05:11:09 GMT Organization: San Diego Supercomputer Center, San Diego CA Lines: 22 Message-ID: <6clnld$33e@rosebud.sdsc.edu> References: <6ckc89$uve$1@news.iastate.edu> <6ckuav$eq$8@irk.zetnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: galt.sdsc.edu Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!ais.net!news.idt.net!nntp2.cerf.net!nntp3.cerf.net!news.sdsc.edu!newsserver.sdsc.edu!galt.sdsc.edu!tep In article , Richard M. Alderson III wrote: > >[referring to Tops-20 systems:] > >Ye gods and little fishes, no! You had several versions of TECO, including two >different display-oriented versions, EDIT (aka SOS), EMACS (built on top of a >TECO), MUSE (a really sucky editor that some of my acquaintances thought was >the be-all and end-all), and a number of screen-oriented editors available from >the DECUS library. Lets not forget the fabulous SOS editor's real name: Son of STOPGAP. I never saw the STOPGAP editor, but SOS was my editor of choice on 10's and 20's until I saw vteco. I think that SOS also ran on RSTS 11's ?? I had already imprinted on *Multics* Emacs by that time, so SOS was only my favorite DEC editor... -- Tom E. Perrine (tep@SDSC.EDU) | San Diego Supercomputer Center http://www.sdsc.edu/~tep/ | Voice: +1.619.534.5000 Been there, done that, erased the evidence, blackmailed the witnesses... ###### From: Landon Dyer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: vi hints & emacs folklore Date: 23 Feb 1998 16:58:46 GMT Organization: BEST Internet Communications, Inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <6cs9s6$9e$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> References: <6ckc89$uve$1@news.iastate.edu> <6ckuav$eq$8@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6clgi8$kk8$1@client2.news.psi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell9.ba.best.com X-Trace: 888253126 302 landon 206.184.139.132 X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA 970731; i386 FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE] Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!ais.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!204.156.128.20!news1.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!shell9.ba.best.com!landon Abigail wrote: :>lisard@zetnet.co.uk (lisard@zetnet.co.uk) wrote on 1634 September 1993 in :>: :>++ :>++ :>++ does anyone still use a line editor btw? *why*? :> :>Yes, I do. i still drop into unix ed(1) from time to time. just gotta love that '?' error message sometimes the right tool for the job is still a rock :-) -- landon@REMOVESPAM.best.com "Money can buy bandwidth, but latency is forever" ###### From: dg@ (David Given) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: vi hints & emacs folklore Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 17:14:25 GMT Organization: I'm organised? Wow! Message-ID: <888254065.10431.0.nnrp-03.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> References: <6ckc89$uve$1@news.iastate.edu> <6ckuav$eq$8@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6clgi8$kk8$1@client2.news.psi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: taos.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: taos.demon.co.uk [158.152.120.224] Lines: 22 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!taos.demon.co.uk!!dg In article <6clgi8$kk8$1@client2.news.psi.net>, Abigail wrote: [...] >When you are using a MUD, bandwidth is one of the limiting resources. >Allowing people to use a screen oriented editor means that for every >keystroke a package is send. Sigh. One of the first things I did when I was into LambdaMOO (great system, BTW) was hack up a set of TinyFugue macros and some back end verbs so that I could edit text and code with pico (these days I'd use vi). Worked a treat. You'd start up the line editor as normal, type "ledit", you'd be presented with a pico window. Exit pico and you'd be back in the line editor with your changes saved. It used all sorts of hairy macros to send the text back and forth from the client to the server... David Given dg@freeyellow.com ###### From: tsw@cagent.com (Tom Watson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: vi hints & emacs folklore Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 19:37:40 -0800 Organization: CagEnt, Inc. Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <6ckc89$uve$1@news.iastate.edu> <6ckuav$eq$8@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6cslk1$qi6$1@nntp2.uunet.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: alfred.cagent.com Cache-Post-Path: alfred.cagent.com!unknown@cypher.cagent.com Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news.rdc1.sfba.home.net!cypher.cagent.com!user In article <6cslk1$qi6$1@nntp2.uunet.ca>, atbowler@thinkage.on.ca (Alan Bowler) wrote: > In article <6ckuav$eq$8@irk.zetnet.co.uk> lisard@zetnet.co.uk writes: > > > >does anyone still use a line editor btw? *why*? > > Yes, I do. I use Fred a variant of QED (the ancestor of the line mode > stuff on VI). Fred differs from QED in having slightly better error > messages, better error detection ("tdsduff" is no longer a valid > command), multiple level undo (QED had no undo), and arbitrarily large > files (QED kept all data in memory and so had a small upper bound > on the size of file it could handle.) QED represents a significant > advance over most of its decendants (ED and EX in particular.)a > It had full regular expressions, multiple edit buffers and easy > programming. Unlike Emacs, you write your macros in the same language > you use for editing. Ahh, QED. Back in ancient times (it was the 60's) QED was just about the only editor available. On the SDS-940 it was pretty good, and after getting used to it, Fortran code could be had by all. The only other "editor" on the system was what was built into basic. Line numbers, etc... The nice people at Tymshare (it has changed names quite a few times since then) went on to develop 'EDITOR' which was an improved QED (on input you could copy from the line above). The problem was that at the command prompt you needed to type TWO characters 'ED' as the minimum, not one 'Q' to get to the editor. Besides 'Q' was easy to find. Another editor of the era was Wylbur on the /360. It ran on terminals that had (WOW!!) both cases. It mutated a couple of times, and got ripped off as well. One derivitave was called "Mutex" or something like that. ......In a galaxy far far away, a long time ago. BRS 131B (those who know understand this!!) -- tsw@cagent.com (Home: tsw@johana.com) Please forward spam to: annagram@hr.house.gov (my Congressman), I do. ###### From: atbowler@thinkage.on.ca (Alan Bowler) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: vi hints & emacs folklore Date: 23 Feb 1998 20:19:13 GMT Organization: Thinkage Ltd. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <6cslk1$qi6$1@nntp2.uunet.ca> References: <6ckc89$uve$1@news.iastate.edu> <6ckuav$eq$8@irk.zetnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.102.11.4 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news.vt.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsrelay.netins.net!nntp.kreonet.re.kr!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uunet.ca!atbowler In article <6ckuav$eq$8@irk.zetnet.co.uk> lisard@zetnet.co.uk writes: > >does anyone still use a line editor btw? *why*? Yes, I do. I use Fred a variant of QED (the ancestor of the line mode stuff on VI). Fred differs from QED in having slightly better error messages, better error detection ("tdsduff" is no longer a valid command), multiple level undo (QED had no undo), and arbitrarily large files (QED kept all data in memory and so had a small upper bound on the size of file it could handle.) QED represents a significant advance over most of its decendants (ED and EX in particular.)a It had full regular expressions, multiple edit buffers and easy programming. Unlike Emacs, you write your macros in the same language you use for editing. ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil.Franklin.remove.this@ccw.ch Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: vi hints & emacs folklore Date: 23 Feb 1998 23:55:37 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 18 Message-ID: <4t1qkk2e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch> References: <6ckc89$uve$1@news.iastate.edu> <6ckuav$eq$8@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6clgi8$kk8$1@client2.news.psi.net> <6cs9s6$9e$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 lisard@zetnet.co.uk (lisard@zetnet.co.uk) wrote on 1634 September 1993: > does anyone still use a line editor btw? *why*? Abigail wrote: > Yes, I do. Landon Dyer added: > i still drop into unix ed(1) from time to time. just gotta > love that '?' error message > sometimes the right tool for the job is still a rock :-) I just had to use ex today, on a Sun with an hosed termcap/terminfo. Good spare tyre, thankfull to have learned to use it. -- private: Neil.Franklin.remove.this@ccw.ch, http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ for Geek Code, Papernet, Voicenet, PGP public key see http: office: franklin.remove.this@arch.ethz.ch I don't like it Microsoft, I like it Megahard If I go missing, its once again my newsfeed that has craped ###### From: andyr@rmi.net (Andy Rabagliati) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: vi hints & emacs folklore Date: 24 Feb 1998 23:05:44 GMT Organization: wizzy Lines: 10 Message-ID: <6cvjo8$f48$1@news1.rmi.net> References: <6ckc89$uve$1@news.iastate.edu> <6clgi8$kk8$1@client2.news.psi.net> <6cs9s6$9e$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <4t1qkk2e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: webmark.com Bcc: andyr@wizzy.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test61 (25 January 1997) Originator: andyr@rmi.net (Andy Rabagliati) Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!199.222.50.6!newsjunkie.ans.net!news1.rmi.net!not-for-mail According to : > > I just had to use ex today, on a Sun with an hosed termcap/terminfo. > Good spare tyre, thankfull to have learned to use it. I use vi 'blind' on such occasions. Much use of / and ^L. Cheers, Andy! ###### From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: vi hints & emacs folklore Date: 24 Feb 1998 23:53:31 GMT Message-ID: <6cvmhr$1de$8@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <4t1qkk2e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-164.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 26 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!europa.clark.net!152.158.16.55!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail does anyone still use a line ed? Abigail wrote: :> Yes, I do. Landon Dyer added: :> i still drop into unix ed(1) from time to time. just gotta :> love that '?' error message :> sometimes the right tool for the job is still a rock :-) On 1998-02-23 Neil.Franklin.remove.this@ccw.ch said: :I just had to use ex today, on a Sun with an hosed :termcap/terminfo. Good spare tyre, thankfull to have learned to use :it. ok. thank you abigail, landon, neil, everyone else; we admit then, that our friend at work might have a point. we'll try using ed on our source tomorrow. (not ex. too easy to cheat. :> ) toodle-pip... -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ###### From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: vi hints & emacs folklore Date: 24 Feb 1998 23:53:33 GMT Message-ID: <6cvmht$1de$9@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <6cslk1$qi6$1@nntp2.uunet.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-164.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 16 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1998-02-23 atbowler@thinkage.on.ca(AlanBowler) said: :QED :represents a significant advance over most of its decendants (ED :and EX in particular.)a It had full regular expressions, multiple :edit buffers and easy programming. Unlike Emacs, you write your :macros in the same language you use for editing. source...? -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive