From: hotlynx@SPAMBEGONEwhidbey.net Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 06:36:00 -0800 Organization: WhidbeyNet News Service Lines: 32 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: asn124.whidbey.net X-Newsreader: Anawave Gravity v2.00 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news-in-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!204.94.52.5!news.whidbey.com!not-for-mail A recent thread discussed Micro$oft's lack of success with products that it developed from scratch... and its spectacular profits from technology that it bought. Let's talk about that. Traf-o-meter was Gate's product ( I think) BASIC for Altair was something that Gates and Allen built. It could be argued that the Altair BASIC was an adaptation of somebody else's product. MS-DOS was bought outright. Windows was coded in house, based on ideas stolen from Apple (who stole them from Xerox). They did this reasonably well on version 3.1 - which was almost 10 years after the project started. Where did the pathetic piece-of-crap Word originate? I'm sure that M$ bought Excel, but can't back that up. Help? What about Access? Power Point? I could believe that M$ developed Exchange. It has all of the features, quality, and speed I expect from those folks. Bob squared. NT couldn't have happened without gutting Digital's OS group. After 8 years, they got something that worked. After 10 years, NT is a mere shadow of the VMS on which it is loosely based (granted, it has a GUI). -- L. Nino -- You can blame everything on me this year. ###### From: Paul Workman Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 12 Feb 1998 13:48:29 -0800 Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: shell15.ba.best.com X-Trace: 887320109 9011 paulcw 206.86.0.12 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news1.best.com!nntp2.ba.best.com!not-for-mail hotlynx@SPAMBEGONEwhidbey.net writes: > A recent thread discussed Micro$oft's lack of success with products that > it developed from scratch... and its spectacular profits from technology > that it bought. Let's talk about that. > > ... > I could believe that M$ developed Exchange. It has all of the features, > quality, and speed I expect from those folks. Bob squared. "Microsoft Bob" is I think the shining example of Microsoft "innovation". Although it wasn't completely lacking in good ideas (I've read about a few ideas in it that weren't completely off-base), as a whole it was a dumb, crusty idea that failed. One thing that DOES impress me about Microsoft is the VISUAL DESIGN of their products. I'm not talking about the clarity of their GUI's -- I find them frequently MORE obtuse than a straightforward CLI -- but the LOOK of their products. The color schemes, the little details: they all result in handsome-looking products, generally more attractive than what you see in, for example, X11 stuff. This may be a major contributing factor in their success. But they still suck. ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 12 Feb 1998 22:13:16 GMT Organization: home Message-ID: <6bvs5s$5p1$4@roch.zetnet.co.uk> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: man-171.dialup.zetnet.co.uk User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.30 (i486)) Lines: 32 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!fenelon.zetnet.co.uk!pete Paul Workman wrote: > One thing that DOES impress me about Microsoft is the VISUAL DESIGN of > their products. I'm not talking about the clarity of their GUI's -- I > find them frequently MORE obtuse than a straightforward CLI -- but the > LOOK of their products. The color schemes, the little details: they > all result in handsome-looking products, generally more attractive > than what you see in, for example, X11 stuff. You think? I thought the '95 user interface was a great step backwards in many respects -- far too many half-understood ideas from Motif, OS/2 and Apple in there. While we're on the subject of GUIs, a great guru once described Motif as having "that 1940s Utility Furniture Look" to it. Exactly right. I'm generally anti-GUI, I tend to prefer text to pictures; my favourite windowing environments tend to be minimalist ones, often by Rob Pike -- I like the look and feel of the blit/mux/layers/8.5 systems he's desgned. I also like Oberon, which I think is an absolutely excellent environment and system... Of GUI's I've not found totally offensive, I think the NeXT got it pretty close to right -- very classy and consistent; my Linux machines tend to run afterstep most of the time... I must say, though, kde looks almost useful, if only it wasn't so 95-ish :) pete -- Pete Fenelon ("There's no room for enigmas in built-up areas") pete@fenelon.zetnet.co.uk http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/petef/ 3 Beckside Gardens, Melrosegate, York, Y01 3TX +44 1904 438472 ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 12 Feb 1998 22:20:17 GMT Organization: home Message-ID: <6bvsj1$5p1$5@roch.zetnet.co.uk> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: man-171.dialup.zetnet.co.uk User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.30 (i486)) Lines: 26 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!fenelon.zetnet.co.uk!pete hotlynx@SPAMBEGONEwhidbey.net wrote: > I'm sure that M$ bought Excel, but can't back that up. Help? I'm pretty sure you're right -- Multiplan was M$'s spreadsheet product. > What about Access? Power Point ? Dunno -- I have a similar feeling about Access. I recall that the earliest versions of VC++ used to pay allegiance to some French software house or other... > I could believe that M$ developed Exchange. It has all of the features, > quality, and speed I expect from those folks. Bob squared. Exchange Server worries me -- I'm familiar with a site which has under 10 users on Exchange, and it pretty much takes a 96Mbyte P133 to look after it. You could probably run incoming and outgoing NNTP, SMTP smarthosting, and POP or IMAP for a couple of hundred fairly demanding Unix users off that :) Outlook causes me the same woes -- seems to want about 11Mbytes of virtual memory, for a second-rate mail client and a third-rate PIM. pete -- Pete Fenelon ("There's no room for enigmas in built-up areas") pete@fenelon.zetnet.co.uk http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/petef/ 3 Beckside Gardens, Melrosegate, York, Y01 3TX +44 1904 438472 ###### From: tnguru@termnetinc.com (Ben Coleman) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 23:01:44 GMT Organization: TermNet Merchant Services, Inc. Lines: 13 Message-ID: <34e37f2a.509198208@news.mindspring.com> References: <6bvsj1$5p1$5@roch.zetnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: user-38lcpdo.dialup.mindspring.com X-Server-Date: 12 Feb 1998 23:02:29 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!207.69.200.121!news.mindspring.com!usenet On 12 Feb 1998 22:20:17 GMT, Pete Fenelon wrote: >Dunno -- I have a similar feeling about Access. Which one? ISTR a failed terminal emulator product from MS called Access. Ben -- Ben Coleman ben@termnetinc.com | Senior Systems Analyst | TermNet Merchant Services, Inc. | Atlanta, GA | ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil.Franklin.remove.this@ccw.ch Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 13 Feb 1998 01:16:41 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 22 Message-ID: <1zx8l5p2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch> References: X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 hotlynx@SPAMBEGONEwhidbey.net wrote: > Windows was coded in house, based on ideas stolen from Apple (who stole > them from Xerox). They did this reasonably well on version 3.1 - which > was almost 10 years after the project started. IIRC it was mainly copied directly (first advertised autumn 1983), also see below. The first MS mouse is also 1983, pre Mac! > Where did the pathetic piece-of-crap Word originate? Xerox PARC (!). Its original author (Charles Simonyi) was part of the PARC team that wrote Bravo on the Alto. So it is also copied. He is also the originator of the "hungarian" naming style for function names in Windows (hwndXxxx() anyone?). -- Neil.Franklin.remove.this@ccw.ch, http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ for Geek Code, Papernet, Voicenet, PGP public key see http: Mac, 95 and NT users are CLUEless (Command Line User Environment) If I go missing, its once again my newsfeed that has craped ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? References: <1zx8l5p2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch> Organization: Plethora Internet X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test60 (5 October 1997) From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Lines: 33 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 04:17:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: herd.plethora.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:17:32 CST Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!newsfeed.wli.net!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail In article <1zx8l5p2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch>, wrote: >Xerox PARC (!). Its original author (Charles Simonyi) was part of the >PARC team that wrote Bravo on the Alto. So it is also copied. He is also >the originator of the "hungarian" naming style for function names in >Windows (hwndXxxx() anyone?). No, he's the originator of a set of formal rules for naming conventions. It's been pointed out that the Windows naming convention, and the Microsoft naming conventions in general, violate every single one of the rules in spirit. For instance, consider int iCount; What does the i tell you? NOTHING! What it should say is int ctFoo; or something similar - the prefix should tell you that this is a count, not how you happen to have implemented it, and the primary name should tell you *what it counts*. The microsoft naming convention is probably a good chunk of the reason their code sucks so badly. -s -- seebs@plethora.net -- I am not speaking for my employer. Copyright '97 All rights reserved. Boycott Spamazon! End Spam. C and Unix wizard - send mail for help, or send money for a consultation. Visit my new ISP --- More Net, Less Spam! Plethora . Net ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? References: <1zx8l5p2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch> Organization: Wizvax Communications, Troy, NY. USA From: multics@wizvax.wizvax.net (Richard Shetron) NNTP-Posting-Host: wizvax.wizvax.net Message-ID: <34e3d250.0@news.wizvax.net> Date: 13 Feb 98 04:55:44 GMT Lines: 15 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!newsfeed.internetmci.com!209.78.65.16!newsfeed.yosemite.net!newsfeed.wizvax.net!news.wizvax.net!wizvax.wizvax.net!multics In article <1zx8l5p2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch>, wrote: >hotlynx@SPAMBEGONEwhidbey.net wrote: >> Windows was coded in house, based on ideas stolen from Apple (who stole >> them from Xerox). They did this reasonably well on version 3.1 - which >> was almost 10 years after the project started. > >IIRC it was mainly copied directly (first advertised autumn 1983), >also see below. The first MS mouse is also 1983, pre Mac! The first mouse I saw was in 1977 when I worked at Rome Air Development Center (Griffiss AFB) used on Arpanet by people using a word processor running on Dec 10's someplace else on the net. I don't remember the number of buttons. ###### From: dpeschel@u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 13 Feb 1998 04:59:07 GMT Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Lines: 51 Message-ID: <6c0jur$h68$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: saul7.u.washington.edu X-Trace: nntp4.u.washington.edu 887345947 17608 (None) 140.142.64.4 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-User: dpeschel Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.onenet.net!news.oru.edu!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!wnfeed!204.127.130.5!worldnet.att.net!news.u.washington.edu!dpeschel In article , wrote: >Traf-o-meter was Gate's product ( I think) It's "Traf-O-Data", as I reacall. (Probably, it WAS "Traf-O-Data".) >BASIC for Altair was something that Gates and Allen built. It could be >argued that the Altair BASIC was an adaptation of somebody else's >product. > >MS-DOS was bought outright. Someone else wrote the floating-point routines, so BASIC was written by three people. Gates spent a lot of time on PDP-10's. Some DEC machine had PEEK and POKE commands (I forget which machine, or at what level), and these might have been "adapted" by Gates for MS' BASIC. I don't know. Certainly, the FAT which Gates used in his standalone BASICs (and IIRC added to DOS after buying it) bears a striking resemblance to the SAT or Storage Allocation Table in TOPS-6. (At least, that's how I remember it from e-mail with one of the TOPS-6 developers a while ago. He mentioned that even the original TOPS system was quite flaky, so the SAT was perhaps a bad data structure to borrow.) >Where did the pathetic piece-of-crap Word originate? People have already mentioned Charles Simonyi (who wrote Word, I think). He based it on ideas from the Bravo editor which ran on Xerox machines. Word hasn't always been crap in my opinion -- and the code base has changed a couple of times, too. >What about Access? Power Point? As people have mentioned, there are two Accesses. One was a contemptible terminal program of some sort. It failed so much that they had no qualms about recycling the name. I don't know about the database. >NT couldn't have happened without gutting Digital's OS group. After 8 >years, they got something that worked. After 10 years, NT is a mere >shadow of the VMS on which it is loosely based (granted, it has a GUI). In the case of Windows, I get the impression that MS didn't understand what they were doing. In the case of NT, I've heard that they _did_ understand what the program should have done, but decided not to do it anyway. (There's some quote about various design decisions which appear to be flaws actually being deliberate.) I know, I haven't checked any sources. At least I'm being honest. -- Derek ###### From: shokwave@well.com (Rob Hafernik) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:08:08 -0600 Organization: Shokwave Software, Inc Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: as1-dialup-31.wc-aus.io.com X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2.2 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!feed2.news.erols.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!209.98.98.14!darla.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!nntp.texas.net!news.io.com!news.io.com!as1-dialup-31.wc-aus.io.com!user In article , Paul Workman wrote: > One thing that DOES impress me about Microsoft is the VISUAL DESIGN of > their products. I'm not talking about the clarity of their GUI's -- I > find them frequently MORE obtuse than a straightforward CLI -- but the > LOOK of their products. The color schemes, the little details: they > all result in handsome-looking products, generally more attractive > than what you see in, for example, X11 stuff. This may be so, but one of the factors (and there were many) that lead graphics designers to early adoption of the Mac (back in the late 80's and such) was the fact that, to a person who does graphics design for a living, Windows looked like crap. Lots and lots of those kinds of folks (I personally heard this from several) were simply offended by the look of Windows. This got better with W95, but lots of them still have a bad taste left in their mouths. Inside the various applications (such as Word), things are a little better, it was the desktop that they objected to. One graphics designer once told me: "Windows looks like some goddamn PROGRAMMER designed it. I don't like the Mac that much either, but at least it looks like they TRIED." YMMV. ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 12:16:39 GMT Message-ID: <887372199snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <1zx8l5p2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch> Reply-To: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-User: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-Path: post-10.mail.demon.net!post.mail.demon.net!tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 887394423 19750 unclebob tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.29 Lines: 21 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!unclebob In article seebs@plethora.net "Peter Seebach" writes: > int iCount; > What does the i tell you? > > NOTHING! Actually, to me it means, "Oh no, not again!" BTW I once had to work on some win3.1 stuff, and took to wearing a Russian submariner's cap badge in my lapel. I said, "If I have to grope about in the murky depths of this stuff, I shall need a submarine..." -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: Paul Workman Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 13 Feb 1998 15:06:02 -0800 Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <6bvs5s$5p1$4@roch.zetnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell15.ba.best.com X-Trace: 887411163 20409 paulcw 206.86.0.12 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!fci-se!fci!fu-berlin.de!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!204.156.128.20!news1.best.com!nntp2.ba.best.com!not-for-mail Pete Fenelon writes: > > Paul Workman wrote: > > One thing that DOES impress me about Microsoft is the VISUAL DESIGN of > > their products. I'm not talking about the clarity of their GUI's -- I > > find them frequently MORE obtuse than a straightforward CLI -- but the > > LOOK of their products. The color schemes, the little details: they > > all result in handsome-looking products, generally more attractive > > than what you see in, for example, X11 stuff. > > You think? I thought the '95 user interface was a great step backwards in > many respects -- far too many half-understood ideas from Motif, OS/2 and > Apple in there. No, not the user interface design, I mean just the look of it. Imagine taking a screenshot of some application on W95, and then take a screenshot some application on X11. Make slides of them, then show the slides to a roomfull of people. The people who are intimidated by computers, will find the W95 stuff nicer to look at, and probably more inviting. That said, the actual user interface on W95 stuff isn't that great...better than W3.1...but what the hell does that prove... ###### From: Lars Duning Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:44:06 +0000 Organization: MDi Systems Lines: 13 Message-ID: <34E46A46.148B6C99@mdisystems.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: host5-99-53-182.btinternet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.onenet.net!news.oru.edu!fci-se!fci!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!streamer1.cleveland.iagnet.net!qual.net!iagnet.net!btnet-peer!btnet!neptunium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail Rob Hafernik wrote: > Inside the various applications (such as Word), things are a little > better, it was the desktop that they objected to. One graphics designer > once told me: "Windows looks like some goddamn PROGRAMMER designed it. I > don't like the Mac that much either, but at least it looks like they > TRIED." AFAIK, Apple requires professional experience in graphics design when recruiting interface engineers. Or at least did require it (who knows what Apple is doing today, or tomorrow (ok, maybe Steve does)). -- Lars Duening; lars@cableinet.co.uk (Home) ###### From: bayko@borealis.cs.uregina.ca (John Bayko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 13 Feb 1998 16:16:35 GMT Organization: University of Regina, Dept. of Computer Science Lines: 70 Message-ID: <6c1rl3$59q$1@sue.cc.uregina.ca> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: borealis.cs.uregina.ca Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.nodak.edu!netnews3.nwnet.net!netnews.nwnet.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cyclone.mbnet.mb.ca!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!tribune.usask.ca!news.uregina.ca!not-for-mail In article , wrote: >A recent thread discussed Micro$oft's lack of success with products that >it developed from scratch... and its spectacular profits from technology >that it bought. Let's talk about that. [...] >I'm sure that M$ bought Excel, but can't back that up. Help? Developed by MS, but much of it was merged from a Macintosh spreadsheed called WingZ, which was ported to Windows, and then bought by Microsoft which discontinued the competing (superior) product, incorporating many of the features into Excel. But there are two things that Microsoft does well that are responsible for its success, and marketing isn't one of them (many other companies can market as well, but are not in the position that gave Microsoft incredible leverage in the market). First, Microsoft is persistant. They will stick with a product, refine, improve, and develop it even if it loses money until it has been refined enough and is capable of functioning adequately that people will buy it. Windows 95 sucks, but it works 91% of the time, just past the 90% acceptance barrier. This process has been repeated with many bad Microsoft products. The second thing is that Microsoft listens to the users complaints, and addresses them. Usually with little or no insight into the fundimental problems, but that's not the point - each release, the users get something that they wanted, that makes a big fundimental problem less big and not as irritating. This constant improvement has a profound psychological effect on people, something that shouldn't be underestimated. Back in the late 80's, when DOS dominated over the Macintosh, people pointed out that there were thousands of programs and utilities for DOS, but only a few for Macintosh, but kept forgetting that most of these were to fix problems that the Macintosh didn't even have. Buying a DOS computer was an imcremental experience - first the computer, then QEMM to get more memory, then Norton Utilities to simplify file management, and so on. This feeling of improvement is an odd, but overpowering satisfaction for people. Oddly, Microsoft's add-hoc methods make them *seem* like they're more productive - making a problem better is a more visible result than eliminating the problem entirely. For example, the long filename aliases to extend 8.3-character names in Windows 95 were hailed as a wonderful advancement, even though OS/2 eliminated the 8.3 name restriction entirely with a more efficient file system. The OS/2 solution was rejected with accusations of incompatibility, even though it functioned more compatibly than the Microsoft version. That aside, the fact is that Microsoft does make a strong effort to respond to users, and when the users demand more, they end up getting more - check out the reviews of Microsoft Office 98 for Macintosh. Macintosh users refused to settle for Windows quality standards, and Microsoft lost a lot of potential profits and marketshare in a lucrative market (yes, the Macintosh market is profitable - many companies make the mistake that it's 'not worth it' because they think Microsoft abandoned it, when in reality, Microsoft merely failed in it). Incidentally, Microsoft might be looking at the Unix market next - they plan to port Internet Explorer to Unix systems. Most other companies don't seem to do this. For example, I've recently had a fair bit of experience with PowerBuilder versions 4 and 5, and it amazes me how many user interface problems in version 4 remain unfixed in version 5. Microsoft would never have allowed those to slip through, even at the expense of some functionality. Ooops, this turned into a long, rambling post. Anyway, the point is, Microsoft persists, and listens to customers. Not many other computer companies do that. -- John Bayko (Tau). bayko@cs.uregina.ca http://www.cs.uregina.ca/~bayko ###### From: tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 13 Feb 1998 16:39:27 GMT Organization: Mechanist Industries Lines: 16 Message-ID: <6c1svv$bu31@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> References: <6bvsj1$5p1$5@roch.zetnet.co.uk> Reply-To: tph@rmi.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cs0053.eld.ford.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news1.chicago.iagnet.net!qual.net!iagnet.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!jobone!dailyplanet.srl.ford.com!eccws1.dearborn.ford.com!longhorn!tph Pete Fenelon (pete@fenelon.zetnet.co.uk) wrote: : hotlynx@SPAMBEGONEwhidbey.net wrote: : > I'm sure that M$ bought Excel, but can't back that up. Help? : I'm pretty sure you're right -- Multiplan was M$'s spreadsheet product. When the Macintosh was new, Apple persuaded MS to develop a spreadsheet for it. This was the genesis of Excel. It was, certainly, based on existing ideas going back to VisiCalc, but I'm pretty sure it was coded in-house rather than bought. -- Tom Harrington --------- tph@rmii.com -------- http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph "Welcome to the real world - an interesting place to visit, but I refuse to live there." -Andy Rozmiarek Cookie's Revenge: ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/tph/cookie/cookies-revenge.sit.hqx ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: eric@fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? X-Nntp-Posting-Host: fudge.uchicago.edu Message-ID: Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) X-Newsposter: Pnews 4.0-test51 (15 Jan 97) Organization: The University of Chicago References: <6bvsj1$5p1$5@roch.zetnet.co.uk> <6c1svv$bu31@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:09:15 GMT Lines: 15 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news.clark.net!europa.clark.net!206.229.87.25!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Tom Harrington wrote: > When the Macintosh was new, Apple persuaded MS to develop a spreadsheet > for it. This was the genesis of Excel. It was, certainly, based on > existing ideas going back to VisiCalc, but I'm pretty sure it was > coded in-house rather than bought. Microsoft's first Mac spreadsheet was Multiplan, but this was a port of an existing program that ran on everything from TI-99/4As on up. Excel only came about when Microsoft was scared that Lotus's soon-to-be-released Jazz was going to blow Multiplan away. As it turned out, they needn't have worried, but they had no way to know that at the time. eric ###### From: glass2@glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 13 Feb 1998 18:55:18 GMT Organization: IBM Austin Lines: 24 Message-ID: <6c24um$216q$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> References: <1zx8l5p2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch> <887372199snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: wa4qal@vnet.ibm.com NNTP-Posting-Host: glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!newsfeed.internetmci.com!198.6.0.5!uunet!in3.uu.net!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!not-for-mail In <887372199snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk>, Robert Billing writes: > > BTW I once had to work on some win3.1 stuff, and took to wearing a >Russian submariner's cap badge in my lapel. I said, "If I have to grope >about in the murky depths of this stuff, I shall need a submarine..." > >-- >I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal >lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ >"Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock >phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" > > We're not programmers. We're not software engineers. We're software archaeologists. :*) Dave P.S. Standard Disclaimer: I work for them, but I don't speak for them. ###### From: dcranford@SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMliveoak.com (David Cranford) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 19:16:43 GMT Organization: Live Oak Software, Inc. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <34e49b26.10191004@news.wco.com> References: <1zx8l5p2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch> <34e3d250.0@news.wizvax.net> Reply-To: dcranford@SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMliveoak.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.21.31.30 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!207.20.0.50!peerfeed.ncal.verio.net!vncnews!HSNX.wco.com!news.ncal.verio.com!not-for-mail Meanwhile, back at the ranch, multics@wizvax.wizvax.net (Richard Shetron) wrote: >The first mouse I saw was in 1977 when I worked at Rome Air Development >Center (Griffiss AFB) used on Arpanet by people using a word processor >running on Dec 10's someplace else on the net. I don't remember the >number of buttons. In 1973, I played briefly with a 60's-era USAF air defense system called BUIC (Back-Up Intercept Control) which used a track ball - which was, IIRC, based on a similar device used to control the cursor on 50's-era manual radar systems. Is an upside-down mouse still a mouse? :-) -- David Cranford Live Oak Software, Inc. dcranford@SpamSpamSpamLiveoak.com I own the company. Its opinions are mine. Perform a spamectomy on my address. ###### From: dcranford@SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMliveoak.com (David Cranford) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 19:22:40 GMT Organization: Live Oak Software, Inc. Lines: 26 Message-ID: <34e59c69.10513628@news.wco.com> References: <6bvsj1$5p1$5@roch.zetnet.co.uk> Reply-To: dcranford@SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMliveoak.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.21.31.30 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!newsfeed.internetmci.com!199.4.94.15!vncnews!HSNX.wco.com!news.ncal.verio.com!not-for-mail Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Pete Fenelon wrote: >Dunno -- I have a similar feeling about Access. >I recall that the earliest versions of VC++ used to pay allegiance to >some French software house or other... > Access (the DBMS, not the incredibly lame terminal app) was, I seem to recall, developed under MSFT auspices. Not sure if it was actual MSFT staff vs. contract work, but they didn't buy an existing product - they spec'ed it and managed its development inhouse. I think development of Access started in 1989 as a project code-named "Redwood" or something similar, then was abandoned, then was resuscitated. I'm a little hazy these days on some of the details though... -- David Cranford Live Oak Software, Inc. dcranford@SpamSpamSpamLiveoak.com I own the company. Its opinions are mine. Perform a spamectomy on my address. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 14 Feb 1998 00:05:09 GMT Lines: 25 Message-ID: <6c2n3l$41c$4@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <6c0jur$h68$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-034.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!195.99.66.215!news-feed1.eu.concert.net!btnet-peer!btnet-feed1!btnet!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1998-02-13 dpeschel@u.washington.edu(D.Peschel) said: :>Where did the pathetic piece-of-crap Word originate? :People have already mentioned Charles Simonyi (who wrote Word, I :think). the dos or windows version? the dos version was interesting, from what we remember (we only ever used it the once). :In the case of Windows, I get the impression that MS didn't :understand what they were doing. windows was (apparently, quoting from some programmer's tech. ref.) originally conceived as a kind of graphical ansi.sys thing, which just gave you (well) windows and a uniform graphical system. but somewhere along the way it became a full-fledged (and half-arsed) gui. we used windows 1 at high school. boy... -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ###### From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 14 Feb 1998 00:05:14 GMT Lines: 44 Message-ID: <6c2n3q$41c$5@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <6c1rl3$59q$1@sue.cc.uregina.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-034.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!btnet-peer!btnet-feed1!btnet!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1998-02-13 bayko@borealis.cs.uregina.ca(JohnBayko) said: :First, Microsoft is persistant. They will stick with a product, :refine, improve, and develop it even if it loses money until it has :been refined enough and is capable of functioning adequately that :people will buy it. Windows 95 sucks, but it works 91% of the time, :just past the 90% acceptance barrier. ...and enough for microsoft to call it "stable" and not bother doing much for win98. yes, microsoft will stick with a product until it works, but many other companies either release stuff that works in the first place or realise they screwed up when nobody bothers with it. :The second thing is that Microsoft listens to the users :complaints, and addresses them. Usually with little or no insight :into the fundimental problems, but that's not the point - each :release, the users get something that they wanted, that makes a big :fundimental problem less big and not as irritating. This constant :improvement has a profound psychological effect on people, :something that shouldn't be underestimated. perhaps you're right - this feeling that "with just a few extra programs, we can make things *so* much better" is illusorily empowering. but it doesn't compensate for the thing being a crock in the first place - because it's very hard to retrofit foundations... in any case, we get the impression that microsoft only listens to the users it wants to listen to, the ones who work for big corporations and are quite happy to say "we'll buy your next system whatever, but if we could just have ... it would be soooo great". the people who are telling it "why the hell couldn't you scrap this heaposhite and start again??" are ignored. that's not how ms does things - even when it's blatantly bloody obvious that it should. the success of microsoft is largely due to the fact that by and large, people believe what they're told. it's also due in no small part to the success of microsoft... -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil.Franklin.remove.this@ccw.ch Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 14 Feb 1998 01:07:12 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <1zx8l5p2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch> <34e3d250.0@news.wizvax.net> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 In article <1zx8l5p2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch>, wrote: > also see below. The first MS mouse is also 1983, pre Mac! multics@wizvax.wizvax.net (Richard Shetron) > The first mouse I saw was in 1977 when I worked at Rome Air Development > Center (Griffiss AFB) used on Arpanet by people using a word processor > running on Dec 10's someplace else on the net. I don't remember the > number of buttons. Note that I said _MS_ mouse. The first mouse at all was in 1964 in the NLS project of Doug Engelbart at the Augmentation Research Center of Stanford Research Institute. (from: an paper given by DE to the ACM in 1988). -- private: Neil.Franklin.remove.this@ccw.ch, http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ for Geek Code, Papernet, Voicenet, PGP public key see http: office: franklin@arch.ethz.ch Mac, 95 and NT users are CLUEless (Command Line User Environment) If I go missing, its once again my newsfeed that has craped ###### From: "David Thompson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:06:10 -0800 Organization: WRQ Inc. Seattle, WA Lines: 26 Message-ID: <6cagqn$9gs$1@wrqnews.wrq.com> References: <6c4jf9$k1k@world6.bellatlantic.net> <6c5gcv$862$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.215.90.112 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!wrq.com!not-for-mail lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote in message <6c5gcv$862$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk>... > > >On 1998-02-14 geogray@bellatlantic.net said: > :I guess I am one of the minority (?) who happen to LIKE the look > :Mac only had ONE mouse button. > >because you can do everything with one mouse button on the mac. jobs >wanted it to be as simple as possible to use; more than one mouse button >he thought might confuse people. Like Gates said "No ever needs more than one mouse button". Oops I use that when I say I hate MS stuff. blah blah (so my damn nntp wii send this short reply). blah blah (so my damn nntp wii send this short reply). blah blah (so my damn nntp wii send this short reply). blah blah (so my damn nntp wii send this short reply). blah blah (so my damn nntp wii send this short reply). blah blah (so my damn nntp wii send this short reply). blah blah (so my damn nntp wii send this short reply). blah blah (so my damn nntp wii send this short reply). blah blah (so my damn nntp wii send this short reply). ###### From: tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 16 Feb 1998 16:57:06 GMT Organization: Mechanist Industries Lines: 29 Message-ID: <6c9r52$ero4@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> References: <6c1rl3$59q$1@sue.cc.uregina.ca> Reply-To: tph@rmi.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cs0053.eld.ford.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.onenet.net!news.oru.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!jobone!dailyplanet.srl.ford.com!eccws1.dearborn.ford.com!longhorn!tph hotlynx@SPAMBEGONEwhidbey.net wrote: : In article <6c1rl3$59q$1@sue.cc.uregina.ca>, bayko@borealis.cs.uregina.ca : says... : I do take issue with one comment: : > many companies make the mistake that it's 'not worth it' : > because they think Microsoft abandoned it, when in reality, Microsoft : > merely failed in it : Failed in it? Micro$oft is the leading provider of MAC software. Failed with Word 6 for Mac. When Word 6 came out, it was such a poorly- done program that Mac users simply refused to buy it. Word 5.1 was so much better than Word 6 that MS was put in the rare position of being forced to reintroduce an old version of the software in order to continue making sales. And that's not all; there was apparently a Word 5.1 "downgrade" package for people who had bought Word 6. The problem was partially resolved with Word 6.0.x, but people still stuck with 5.1 unless the change was unavoidable. MS learned their lesson, though, or at least that's what I hear. Word '98 for Mac is reportedly a great program, according to early reviews. We'll see; it's not available to the public until next month. -- Tom Harrington --------- tph@rmii.com -------- http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph "Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever." -The Adventures of Baron Munchausen Cookie's Revenge: ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/tph/cookie/cookies-revenge.sit.hqx ###### From: spoe@mindspring.com (Justin Stodola) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:04:50 GMT Organization: Not Much Lines: 12 Message-ID: <34e88d2e.46117110@news.mindspring.com> References: <34E46A46.148B6C99@mdisystems.com> <6c4jf9$k1k@world6.bellatlantic.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: user-37kb9tf.dialup.mindspring.com X-Server-Date: 16 Feb 1998 19:05:38 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!207.69.200.121!news.mindspring.com!usenet On Sun, 15 Feb 1998 22:21:49 -0600, shokwave@well.com (Rob Hafernik) wrote: >You could argue that today's more sophisticated users can handle >multiple-button mice and you might even be right. Certainly you can You'd probably be wrong. Ask anyone that has to tech support anything that has anything to do with Win 95. Getting somebody to right click on anything is nigh on impossible. -- Justin Stodola ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 21:19:50 GMT Message-ID: <887663990snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <6c1rl3$59q$1@sue.cc.uregina.ca> Reply-To: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-User: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-Path: post-20.mail.demon.net!post.mail.demon.net!tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 887665447 25508 unclebob tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.29 Lines: 15 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!unclebob In article shokwave@well.com "Rob Hafernik" writes: > then). About 18 months later, MS put out a new version that fixed the > problem. ...thereby infringing your copyright on the patch. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 16 Feb 1998 23:24:58 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 17 Message-ID: <6cahsa$tdb$5@news3.tufts.edu> References: <6c4jf9$k1k@world6.bellatlantic.net> <6c5gcv$862$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 887671498 30123 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: : (btw, the taskbar is actually a move away from ergonomic interfce design : in our view - in win3.11 our mail client used to change its icon when we : received mail. win95 can't do this, instead relying on putting a little : icon in the corner of the taskbar. ugh. I *miss* animated Icon art. It Win3.1 the icon had its own little client area you could paint on, just like the full sized windows... (I discovered this by accident, making little software toys.) Besides that, I think the task bar brings across a good dichotomy between running programs and programs or doucments that can be run. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com "If you haven't been rejected three times this week then your not trying." --www.emtex.com/toptips ###### From: shokwave@well.com (Rob Hafernik) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:08:27 -0600 Organization: Shokwave Software, Inc Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: <6c1rl3$59q$1@sue.cc.uregina.ca> <887663990snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.224.81.160 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2.2 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news.vt.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.us.hsanet.net!netnews.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!korova.insync.net!news.io.com!news.io.com!as4-dialup-22.wc-aus.io.com!user > > then). About 18 months later, MS put out a new version that fixed the > > problem. > > ...thereby infringing your copyright on the patch. Hmmm, maybe they did at that. I guess we should have snooped through the code in the new release to see if they had "stolen" our patch. Lesson learned... ###### From: Victor Eijkhout Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 17 Feb 1998 12:56:34 -0500 Organization: University of Tennessee Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: prancer.cs.utk.edu X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!howland.erols.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!192.249.1.30!utk.edu!not-for-mail hotlynx@SPAMBEGONEwhidbey.net writes: > Windows was coded in house, based on ideas stolen from Apple (who stole ^^^^^ > them from Xerox). ITYM "bought". HTH. HAND. -- Victor Eijkhout "The obvious mathematical breakthrough would be development of an easy way to factor large prime numbers." -- Bill Gates from "The Road Ahead," p. 265. ###### From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 17 Feb 1998 19:34:12 GMT Message-ID: <6cconk$ml8$7@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: man-190.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 27 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1998-02-15 shokwave@well.com(RobHafernik) said: :BOTH W95 and the Mac MULTITASK. They both have for years, to :suggest otherwise is silly. using that definition, anything that's event driven multitasks. but to us, co-operative multitasking is not true multitasking, because of the one process that will refuse to co-operate. however, provided that doesn't happen, it's probably the best approach to uniprocessor multitasking, and certainly the simplest. but it *is* fragile, and microsoft regularly seemed to build programs that broke their own implementation of it... :The Mac does not use PRE-EMPTIVE :multitasking and some people contend that W95 does (although those :who so contend are usually not coming from "real" multitasking :backgrounds, such as Unix). and that's precisely what we meant. -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ###### From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 17 Feb 1998 19:34:16 GMT Message-ID: <6ccono$ml8$8@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: man-190.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 39 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feed2.news.erols.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail actually, we suspect that the success of microsoft has nothing whatsoever to do with any talent or merit of the organisationitself, and everything to do with the extraordinary success of the architecture they first piggy-backed and then hi-jacked, despite the technical reasons why it should have fallen at the first hurdle. so the question is, why didn't pcs drop off the edge of the world once superior systems were available? probably because, by accident, it was a completely open and eminently cloneable design. by the time the clone market was established ibm didn't really know what had hit them, and when they tried to close it off again their hands were bitten. (mca, anyone...?) microsoft, because of this market, had a steady income in the shape of dos. they could do what they pleased, were free to tinker until they came up with something to replace dos, safe in the knowledge that they had a steady income anyway. they conceived first windows (a flop until version 3), then os/2 (a really bad flop, for all kinds of reasons) and then realised that they had a winner in win3 and dropped os/2 like a hot spud. so why did win3 take off? simply because the technology was ready for it. other companies had tried to do similar things (notably dr with gem) but the raw power just wasn't there in most cases; win3 coincided with the readily available "386 plus large-ish hard drive" system. it also had proportional fonts in the menus... and whatever could be said about it, it was easier than dos, and you could run several dos and windows programs at once using it. they also developed software for win3 that gave them a head start in that particular market. the rest is history, and now we're stuck with it... :< -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ###### From: john@thebeard.demon.co.uk (John Robinson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 22:35:33 GMT Organization: Number Ten Message-ID: <34ebfd0d.1852662@news.demon.co.uk> References: <6c4jf9$k1k@world6.bellatlantic.net> <6c5gcv$862$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <34e79532.1221095@news.ncl.ac.uk> Reply-To: John Robinson NNTP-Posting-Host: thebeard.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: thebeard.demon.co.uk [158.152.185.198] X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 19 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!thebeard.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail On Mon, 16 Feb 1998 01:25:06 GMT, Nigel Orr wrote: > On 15 Feb 1998 01:29:03 GMT, lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: > > >in our view - in win3.11 our mail client used to change its icon when we > >received mail. win95 can't do this, instead relying on putting a little > >icon in the corner of the taskbar. ugh. > > Actually, it can, at least with Eudora. And Forté Agent changes the icon too. -- John Robinson john@thebeard.demon.co.uk ________________________________________________________________________________ "You know, just once I'd like to meet an alien menace that wasn't immune to bullets." - Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart ###### From: dski@cameonet.cameo.com.twx (Dan Strychalski) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 18 Feb 1998 07:05:51 GMT Organization: Cameo Communications, Inc. Lines: 27 Message-ID: <6ce18f$2jg@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.72.104.4 Originator: dski@ Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!news.igateway.net!news.cwi.net!news1.channel1.com!news.pn.com!nntp.pn.com!uunet!in4.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!204.59.152.222!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!spring.edu.tw!feeder.seed.net.tw!news.seed.net.tw!!dski lisard@zetnet.co.uk > actually, we suspect that the success of microsoft has nothing > whatsoever to do with any talent or merit of the organisationitself, and > everything to do with the extraordinary success of the architecture they > first piggy-backed and then hi-jacked, despite the technical reasons why > it should have fallen at the first hurdle. Businesspeople trust the name IBM. Developers love expandable systems. Microsoft had the OS. They had everyone by the jugular, and they knew it. I recall a day in 1982, when I had a tiny booth at the West Coast Computer Faire where I sold my first copies of my beloved word processor, Volkswriter, and a fellow from Microsoft stopped by.... He said that Micropro needn't worry about me... and that Microsoft wasn't working on a word processor yet. But he predicted that someday Bill would decide to eat WordStar's lunch, and that then they would. -- Camilo Wilson, CEO, Cogix Corporation, April 17, 1996 http://www.cogix.com/NetscapeSunset.htm What we have seen, what the DOJ has attempted to address, is only the tip of the iceberg. Dan Strychalski dski at cameonet, cameo, com, tw Apologies for the anti-spam devices and non-threading newsreader. ###### From: bill_h Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:44:59 -0800 Organization: Starnet Lines: 20 Message-ID: <34EB9CAB.2076@azstarnet.com> References: <6cfquj$c5g$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> NNTP-Posting-Host: 169.197.33.164 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!169.197.1.22!feeder.news.azstarnet.com!reader1.news.azstarnet.com!news writer1@Eng.Sun.COM wrote: > The OS (QDOS) bought from Seattle Computer Products was a crude product, > which required a major effort to convert into MS-DOS. > > Sabu There are good reasons to doubt there ever was a QDOS. If ANYONE, including Bob Morrisette (sabu) can produce ANYTHING contemporaneous with it's alleged gestation period, then DO SO! Seattle Computer Products (Tim Paterson) created? developed? plagerized? 86-DOS. The earliest versions, 0.1 and 0.3, were sent, in very small numbers (probably under a hundred copies) to OEM's, reviewers, and developers. Version 1.0 was sold, along with Seattle Computer's S-100 8086 and support boards, to the public for a couple years or so. IBM's Personal Computer DOS was based on 86-DOS version 1.0, which was NOT backward compatible with the earlier versions. I can't confirm, but believe, that the 8086 operating system was sold under several names PRIOR to the release of the IBM PC, including SCP DOS. ###### From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 18 Feb 1998 20:57:53 GMT Message-ID: <6cfi0h$q9o$6@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <6ce18f$2jg@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-171.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 57 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1998-02-18 dski@cameonet.cameo.com.twx(DanStrychalski) said: :lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: :> actually, we suspect that the success of microsoft has nothing :> whatsoever to do with any talent or merit of the :>organisationitself, and everything to do with the extraordinary :>success of the architecture they first piggy-backed and then :>hi-jacked, despite the technical reasons why it should have :>fallen at the first hurdle. :Businesspeople trust the name IBM. Developers love expandable :systems. Microsoft had the OS. They had everyone by the jugular, :and they knew it. developers love expandable systems, yes, but they hate systems that have to be expanded to work properly - as soon as you get into that situation, you have a myriad of possible expansions to cover. ugh. graphics cards are a case in point, as are printers, etc. etc. then windoze comes along, says "hey! just write for virtual devices, we'll do the rest!" and everyone says "wow, at last" and because they've forgotten that when dr waved gem about and said much the same thing, the hardware was too slow to endure the killer performance hit, they see that it only almost cripples the computer and embrace it like good little bunnyrabbits, and never mind about those two lights coming up quickly from the distance there, petal, just stay between them and you'll be ok... :"I recall a day in 1982, when I had a tiny booth at the West Coast :Computer Faire where I sold my first copies of my beloved word :processor, Volkswriter, and a fellow from Microsoft stopped by.... :He said that Micropro needn't worry about me... and that Microsoft :wasn't working on a word processor yet. But he predicted that :someday Bill would decide to eat WordStar's lunch, and that then :they would." :-- Camilo Wilson, CEO, Cogix Corporation, April 17, 1996 is volkswriter for dos still available in some form somewhere? first word processor we ever used for dos. best as far as we can remember, too. :http://www.cogix.com/NetscapeSunset.htm :What we have seen, what the DOJ has attempted to address, is only :the tip of the iceberg. don't, please don't. the thought that keeps us going in this industry is that microsoft's nemesis can't be too far away now. take that away from us and we might as well shove pencils up our nostrils, underpants on our head, and sit in a corner drooling and saying things like "wibble", "millenium hand and shrimp", and "that bill gates is a really wonderful person, he's done wonders for the computer industry". -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ###### From: writer1@Eng.Sun.COM Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 18 Feb 1998 23:30:27 GMT Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <6cfquj$c5g$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> References: Reply-To: writer1@Eng.Sun.COM NNTP-Posting-Host: sabu.eng.sun.com Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!venus.sun.com!sunnews1.Eng.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!not-for-mail From hotlynx@SPAMBEGONEwhidbey.net >A recent thread discussed Micro$oft's lack of success with products that >it developed from scratch... and its spectacular profits from technology >that it bought. Let's talk about that. >MS-DOS was bought outright. The OS (QDOS) bought from Seattle Computer Products was a crude product, which required a major effort to convert into MS-DOS. Sabu ###### From: writer1@Eng.Sun.COM Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 19 Feb 1998 00:01:51 GMT Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <6cfspf$c5g$3@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> References: Reply-To: writer1@Eng.Sun.COM NNTP-Posting-Host: sabu.eng.sun.com Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!venus.sun.com!sunnews1.Eng.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!not-for-mail In article fsf@prancer.cs.utk.edu, Victor Eijkhout writes: > hotlynx@SPAMBEGONEwhidbey.net writes: > > > Windows was coded in house, based on ideas stolen from Apple (who stole > ^^^^^ > > them from Xerox). > > ITYM "bought". HTH. HAND. > > -- > Victor Eijkhout Then why did Xerox sue Apple? Prove your statement. Sabu ###### From: korpela@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 19 Feb 1998 01:00:58 GMT Organization: Cal Berkeley-- Space Sciences Lab Lines: 28 Message-ID: <6cg08a$dk8$1@agate.berkeley.edu> References: <6cfquj$c5g$1@engnews2.eng.sun.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: islay.ssl.berkeley.edu Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!agate!islay.ssl.berkeley.edu!korpela In article <6cfquj$c5g$1@engnews2.eng.sun.com>, wrote: >From hotlynx@SPAMBEGONEwhidbey.net > >>A recent thread discussed Micro$oft's lack of success with products that >>it developed from scratch... and its spectacular profits from technology > >>MS-DOS was bought outright. > >The OS (QDOS) bought from Seattle Computer Products was a crude product, >which required a major effort to convert into MS-DOS. > >Sabu It may be true that a major effort was required to convert QDOS into MS-DOS version 7. However, anyone who has seen both will tell you that the effort required to convert QDOS into PC-DOS 1.0 would hardly fill a skilled programmer's weekend. The hard part is the BIOS, and IBM did that. MS-DOS has always been a crude product, ranging from 5-15 years behind the state of the art. Eric -- Eric Korpela | An object at rest can never be korpela@ssl.berkeley.edu | stopped. Click here for more info. ###### From: "Ralph Wade Phillips" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 19 Feb 1998 02:34:14 GMT Organization: Phillips Enterprises Lines: 30 Message-ID: <01bd3ce0$0248aca0$f62cd6d0@ralphp.shreve.net> References: <6cfspf$c5g$3@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.214.44.246 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news.vt.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.cc.ukans.edu!srvr1.engin.umich.edu!sdd.hp.com!usc!howland.erols.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.oru.edu!news.shreve.net!not-for-mail Hi there! writer1@Eng.Sun.COM wrote in article <6cfspf$c5g$3@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM>... > In article fsf@prancer.cs.utk.edu, Victor Eijkhout writes: > > hotlynx@SPAMBEGONEwhidbey.net writes: > > > > > Windows was coded in house, based on ideas stolen from Apple (who stole > > ^^^^^ > > > them from Xerox). > > > > ITYM "bought". HTH. HAND. > > > > -- > > Victor Eijkhout > > Then why did Xerox sue Apple? Prove your statement. > > Sabu Because they hadn't been paid ENOUGH? I don't remember a Xerox/Apple lawsuit over the GUI. I !DO! remember the threat of a lawsuit against DRI and the lawsuit against Microsoft (which Xerox was joined into on the Microsoft side). RwP ###### From: hotlynx@SPAMBEGONEwhidbey.net Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 13:45:12 -0800 Organization: WhidbeyNet News Service Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <6cfquj$c5g$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <34EB9CAB.2076@azstarnet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: asn75.whidbey.net X-Newsreader: Anawave Gravity v2.00 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.wli.net!news-peer-west.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news-in-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!204.94.52.5!news.whidbey.com!not-for-mail In article <34EB9CAB.2076@azstarnet.com>, bill_h@azstarnet.com says... > writer1@Eng.Sun.COM wrote: > > There are good reasons to doubt there ever was a QDOS. If ANYONE, including > Bob Morrisette (sabu) can produce ANYTHING contemporaneous with it's > alleged gestation period, then DO SO! > > Seattle Computer Products (Tim Paterson) created? developed? plagerized? > 86-DOS. The earliest versions, 0.1 and 0.3, were sent, in very small numbers > (probably under a hundred copies) to OEM's, reviewers, and developers. > Version 1.0 was sold, along with Seattle Computer's S-100 8086 and support > boards, to the public for a couple years or so. IBM's Personal Computer > DOS was based on 86-DOS version 1.0, which was NOT backward compatible > with the earlier versions. > > I can't confirm, but believe, that the 8086 operating system was sold under > several names PRIOR to the release of the IBM PC, including SCP DOS. > "QDOS" was basically a rip off of cp/m, modified to work on an 8086 chip. Even though 8086 could sort of handle 16-bit instructions, the early iterations of QDOS/PC-DOS/MS-DOS pretended that it was written strictly for an 8-bit processor. It didn't break any new ground, and didn't even stretch to its own limits. It was a sign of what was to come from Micro$oft. -- L. Nino -- You can blame everything on me this year. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? References: <6ccono$ml8$8@irk.zetnet.co.uk> Organization: Plethora Internet X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test60 (5 October 1997) From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Lines: 20 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 17:17:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: herd.plethora.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:17:20 CST Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!ais.net!darla.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail In article <6ccono$ml8$8@irk.zetnet.co.uk>, wrote: >so the question is, why didn't pcs drop off the edge of the world once >superior systems were available? probably because, by accident, it was a >completely open and eminently cloneable design. No. Because it was made by IBM, and they made the typewriter it was supposed to replace. Later, because you already had one. Later, because this machine could run the software on the "old" PC. -s -- Copyright '98, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! Not speaking for my employer. Questions on C/Unix? Send mail for help. Visit my new ISP --- More Net, Less Spam! ###### From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 20 Feb 1998 21:58:53 GMT Message-ID: <6ckuat$eq$7@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: man-093.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 29 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1998-02-20 seebs@plethora.net(PeterSeebach) said: :In article <6ccono$ml8$8@irk.zetnet.co.uk>, :>wrote: so the question is, why didn't pcs drop off the edge of the :>world once superior systems were available? probably because, by :>accident, it was a completely open and eminently cloneable design. :No. Because it was made by IBM, and they made the typewriter it was :supposed to replace. naah - if it was just "because ibm made it", it wouldn't have been half so successful. the secret wasn't that ibm made it, so much as that anyone else could. including a lot of companies who had made the cp/m machines that also got replaced... if ibm had tried to enforce their copyrights on its design (not just its bios) the pc would have sunk under its own obsolescence. :Later, because you already had one. :Later, because this machine could run the software on the "old" PC. agreed here, though. -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ###### From: khchung@maths.unsw.EDU.AU (Kin Hoong CHUNG) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 21 Feb 1998 06:48:45 GMT Organization: University of New South Wales Lines: 19 Message-ID: <6cltcd$51s$4@mirv.unsw.edu.au> References: <6ccono$ml8$8@irk.zetnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: alpha.maths.unsw.edu.au X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!192.26.210.166!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uow.edu.au!metro!metro!unsw.edu.au!khchung Peter Seebach (seebs@plethora.net) wrote: : In article <6ccono$ml8$8@irk.zetnet.co.uk>, wrote: : >so the question is, why didn't pcs drop off the edge of the world once : >superior systems were available? probably because, by accident, it was a : >completely open and eminently cloneable design. : No. Because it was made by IBM, and they made the typewriter it was : supposed to replace. : Later, because you already had one. : Later, because this machine could run the software on the "old" PC. I suspect it is also a case of all this old data which needed a PC to read (with the old software). Cheers, Kin Hoong ###### From: hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com (Lisa or Jeff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 22 Feb 1998 16:30:42 GMT Organization: Net Access BBS Lines: 26 Message-ID: <6cpjri$8sd@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bbs.cpcn.com Originator: root@bbs.cpcn.com Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.algonet.se!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!netnews.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!netaxs.com!bbs.cpcn.com!root Marketing. Microsoft (and Bill Gates) are brilliant marketers. As I'v mentioned before, look at the early GM model. Alfred Sloan wanted to compete with Henry Ford. But Ford's factories built the Model T so efficiently there was no way to compete head-to-head. Well, Sloan sold _status_, not basic transportation. Sloan created the cachet of fancy cars, the buildup from Chevy to Buick to Cadillac. Ford, a very stubborn person, stuck to his Model T. GM flourished. Much later on GM stumbled in the late 1970s when it still stuck by selling "status" when the Japanese came in with superior cars. It took a long time for GM to catch on what the public really wanted. Getting back to Gates, how people REALLY need a Pentium CPU with 16 Meg of RAM? Most home users do not need all that horsepower to write a letter to the electric company. Indeed, an awful lot of business users write very simple memos or spreadsheets and would do fine with the horsepower of an 8088 or even a CPM machine. But Gates sold us on having Windows 95. And Intel has sold us on having a Pentium II MMX. You often hear people bragging about their CPU just as people bragged years back about their cars. ###### From: rhawkins@iastate.edu (Rick Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 23 Feb 1998 00:43:09 GMT Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa USA Lines: 40 Message-ID: <6cqgmt$bih$1@news.iastate.edu> References: <6cpjri$8sd@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pv2086.vincent.iastate.edu Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!news.iastate.edu!rhawkins In article <6cpjri$8sd@netaxs.com>, Lisa or Jeff wrote: >Marketing. > >Well, Sloan sold _status_, not basic transportation. Sloan created >the cachet of fancy cars, the buildup from Chevy to Buick to Cadillac. NOt quite that clearly. Sloan formed GM, and ended up with 10 brands, as well as a gaggle of parts companies. He then lost control to bankers (if I recall, it was using stock pledged as collateral. THe manner of loss would violate assorted laws today). Sloan responded by forming Chevy, getting a famous french race driver, Cheverolet, involved. The sales pitch was "a six for the price of a four." As has been becoming common again, the "levels" of car tracked well with the number of cylinders. Chevy prospered, and it, it's subsidiaries, and Sloans's friends (notably including the DuPonts, iirc), began quietly buying GM stock. After several years, Sloan appeared at the annual meeting for GM, and announced his control of 51% of the stock (can't do that anymore, either :). A new GM was formed in another state, and through this mechanism Chevy acquired GM. While I'm at it, but I forget where this fits into thetime sequence: Chevy, competing with the Model T, named a model with the T's price.(495?). And it also matched the T's price--sort of: some minor standard equipment, such as the electric starter, wasn't included :) rick -- R E HAWKINS rhawkins@iastate.edu These opinions will not be those of ISU until they pay my retainer. ###### From: ehrice@his.com (Edward Rice) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 02:20:05 -0500 Organization: NDS Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <6cpjri$8sd@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm3-43.his.com Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.cs.jhu.edu!news3.his.com!user In article <6cpjri$8sd@netaxs.com>, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com (Lisa or Jeff) wrote: > Getting back to Gates, how people REALLY need a Pentium CPU with > 16 Meg of RAM? Most home users do not need all that horsepower to > write a letter to the electric company. Indeed, an awful lot of > business users write very simple memos or spreadsheets and would > do fine with the horsepower of an 8088 or even a CPM machine. > > But Gates sold us on having Windows 95. And Intel has sold us > on having a Pentium II MMX. You often hear people bragging about > their CPU just as people bragged years back about their cars. What was the price of an 8088 system with printer, scope, "high-speed" 1200-baud modem, and as much memory as you needed to hang on it? What is the price of a like Pentium system? Now, why should we give up cheap, fast computers in favor of not-as-cheap slower computers? ###### From: writer1@Eng.Sun.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 23 Feb 1998 22:51:40 GMT Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <6csuhs$m5o$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> References: Reply-To: writer1@Eng.Sun.COM NNTP-Posting-Host: sabu.eng.sun.com Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news.vt.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsrelay.netins.net!nntp.kreonet.re.kr!logbridge.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!venus.sun.com!sunnews1.Eng.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!not-for-mail From hotlynx@SPAMBEGONEwhidbey.net "QDOS" was basically a rip off of cp/m, modified to work on an 8086 chip. Even though 8086 could sort of handle 16-bit instructions, the early iterations of QDOS/PC-DOS/MS-DOS pretended that it was written strictly for an 8-bit processor. It didn't break any new ground, and didn't even stretch to its own limits. It was a sign of what was to come from Micro$oft. ----------------------------------------------- Microsoft did not create QDOS. Can't blame them for everything. Sabu ###### From: William.Hamblen@nashville.com (William Hamblen) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:14:46 GMT Organization: Utterly Disorganized Lines: 37 Message-ID: <34f1128c.1272046@news.nashville.com> References: <6cpjri$8sd@netaxs.com> <6cqgmt$bih$1@news.iastate.edu> Reply-To: William.Hamblen@nashville.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 19009@207.65.180.88 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail On 23 Feb 1998 00:43:09 GMT, rhawkins@iastate.edu (Rick Hawkins) wrote: >In article <6cpjri$8sd@netaxs.com>, Lisa or Jeff wrote: >>Marketing. >> > >>Well, Sloan sold _status_, not basic transportation. Sloan created >>the cachet of fancy cars, the buildup from Chevy to Buick to Cadillac. > >NOt quite that clearly. Sloan formed GM, and ended up with 10 brands, >as well as a gaggle of parts companies. > >He then lost control to bankers (if I recall, it was using stock pledged >as collateral. THe manner of loss would violate assorted laws today). > >Sloan responded by forming Chevy, getting a famous french race driver, >Cheverolet, involved. The sales pitch was "a six for the price of a >four." As has been becoming common again, the "levels" of car tracked >well with the number of cylinders. > >Chevy prospered, and it, it's subsidiaries, and Sloans's friends >(notably including the DuPonts, iirc), began quietly buying GM stock. > >After several years, Sloan appeared at the annual meeting for GM, and >announced his control of 51% of the stock (can't do that anymore, either >:). > >A new GM was formed in another state, and through this mechanism Chevy >acquired GM. > >While I'm at it, but I forget where this fits into thetime sequence: >Chevy, competing with the Model T, named a model with the T's >price.(495?). And it also matched the T's price--sort of: some minor >standard equipment, such as the electric starter, wasn't included :) You're both confusing Sloan with Durant. ###### From: hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com (Lisa or Jeff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 24 Feb 1998 01:32:30 GMT Organization: Net Access BBS Lines: 14 Message-ID: <6ct7ve$4rm@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bbs.cpcn.com Originator: root@bbs.cpcn.com Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!netaxs.com!bbs.cpcn.com!root > What is the price of a like Pentium system? > Now, why should we give up cheap, fast computers in favor of not-as-cheap > slower computers? I'll tell you: How much does a radio cost? Not an easy answer. You can get simple "transistor radio" for $5. You can get a home entertainment system with Dolby sound, foot massage, etc., for $5,000. Both convert public radio waves to sound for you to hear. This price range has NOT happened in the computer world. A full service PC is still around $1,000. Why can't someone get a bare bones PC for $200? ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Boris Gjenero Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <34F23C66.B7CF2F8F@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca> Sender: news@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: cnts3p09.uwaterloo.ca Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: The First Frontier References: <6ct7ve$4rm@netaxs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 03:20:06 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.30 i586) Lines: 35 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!europa.clark.net!209.130.129.134!node2.frontiernet.net!node17.frontiernet.net!xcski.com!freenet-news.carleton.ca!cunews!nott!kwon!watserv3.uwaterloo.ca!news Lisa or Jeff wrote: > > > What is the price of a like Pentium system? > > Now, why should we give up cheap, fast computers in favor of not-as-cheap > > slower computers? > > I'll tell you: How much does a radio cost? > > Not an easy answer. You can get simple "transistor radio" for $5. You > can get a home entertainment system with Dolby sound, foot massage, etc., > for $5,000. Both convert public radio waves to sound for you to hear. > > This price range has NOT happened in the computer world. A full service > PC is still around $1,000. > > Why can't someone get a bare bones PC for $200? Maybe a new full service PC is expensive, but you can get used systems for much less. If you know where to look you can get reasonably modern used PC compatible systems for $200 or even less. If it doesn't have to be PC compatible you could get it practically for free even if it used to cost tens of thousands of dollars. Of course you can generally get a free OS and free software for it. So, basically... computers are not expensive if you're willing to look around. If you insist on just looking at new PCs they may still be expensive, but even that is changing. Some systems based on the new highly integrated chips like the MediaGX are rather inexpensive, and we may soon have $200 PCs -- | Boris Gjenero | | Home page: http://www.undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca/~bgjenero/ | | "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to | | depend greatly on our own point of view." - Obi-Wan Kenobi, ROTJ | ###### From: "Mark A. Malloy" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 07:54:39 -0500 Organization: A.C.R. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <34F2C30F.41C6@ntr.net> References: <6ct7ve$4rm@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: Pool-207-205-203-95.kop.grid.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01SGoldC-SGI (X11; I; IRIX 6.3 IP32) Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!newsfeed.wli.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.ntr.net!news2.ntr.net!usenet@ntr.net Lisa or Jeff wrote: > Why can't someone get a bare bones PC for $200? I bought a new Amiga 600 back in 1993 for $199. Of course, it was an Amiga, and you said PC... And it wasn't cutting edge technology, even among the Amiga lineup... And it didn't have a hard drive at first... ....but it was a new computer under $200. - Mark -- --- http://www.ntr.net/~reatta --- ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Tue, 24 Feb 98 09:05:55 GMT Message-ID: <888311155snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <6ct7ve$4rm@netaxs.com> Reply-To: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-User: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-Path: post-10.mail.demon.net!post.mail.demon.net!tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 888345386 14105 unclebob tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.29 Lines: 15 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news-dc-1.sprintlink.net!news-east.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!unclebob In article <6ct7ve$4rm@netaxs.com> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com "Lisa or Jeff" writes: > Why can't someone get a bare bones PC for $200? I looked at this a while back. Once you have paid for the case, power supply, monitor, keyboard and rodent, then the choice of CPU only makes a small difference to the overall component cost. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: w6nh2@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca (Sir Isle) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 24 Feb 1998 15:06:55 GMT Organization: Softouch Software Lines: 10 Message-ID: <6cunmf$mqv@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca> References: <6cpjri$8sd@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sol-alt1.unb.ca X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!205.252.116.205!howland.erols.net!torn!garnet.nbnet.nb.ca!news.unb.ca!sol!w6nh2 : hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com (Lisa or Jeff) wrote: : > Getting back to Gates, how people REALLY need a Pentium CPU with : > 16 Meg of RAM? Most home users do not need all that horsepower to : > write a letter to the electric company. Indeed, an awful lot of : > business users write very simple memos or spreadsheets and would : > do fine with the horsepower of an 8088 or even a CPM machine. True. Many would probably be more productive, since then the employees couldn't play solitare when no one was looking. ;) Isle ###### From: John Stracke Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:13:07 -0800 Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com Lines: 29 Message-ID: <34F353F8.6051FC85@thibault.org> References: <34E46A46.148B6C99@mdisystems.com> <6c4jf9$k1k@world6.bellatlantic.net> <6cupot$htl$1@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 15209@204.179.137.118 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; U; PPC) Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail (I came in late; in reponse to the subject: well, they made pretty good Basics, once upon a time, if you like that sort of thing. ;-) Duncan Grisby wrote: > Why is it that the main criterion for an "easy to use" system is ease > of learning? Two reasons, one marketing and one real: Marketing: If it's hard to learn, nobody will buy it, 'cause the people that evaluate it haven't learned it yet. Real: because ease of learning leads to continued ease of use, because there's less to remember. I remember N+1 details for Unix, sockets, protocols, etc...but that's my job. I have read the user's manual on my voicemail system, but I don't use any of the oddball stuff often enough to remember it; and I shouldn't have to. It's not my job. It's the system's job to make things obvious. -- /================================================================\ |John Francis Stracke| http://www.thibault.org |S/MIME & HTML OK| |francis@thibault.org|===========================================| |Power Mac w/PPP | My strength is as the strength of ten | |My Mac, my opinions.| because my code is pure. | \================================================================/ ###### From: Duncan Grisby Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 24 Feb 1998 15:42:21 GMT Organization: University of Cambridge Computer Laboratory Lines: 34 Message-ID: <6cupot$htl$1@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk> References: <34E46A46.148B6C99@mdisystems.com> <6c4jf9$k1k@world6.bellatlantic.net> Reply-To: Duncan Grisby NNTP-Posting-Host: ouse.cl.cam.ac.uk Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!server4.netnews.ja.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!not-for-mail In article , Rob Hafernik wrote: [...] >They tried mice with several different numbers of buttons. At the time, >when a mouse was a very new gadget, neophyte users (ie, their target >audience) did poorly with multi-button mice. They kept getting confused >about what button they were pressing. > >So Apple went with a single button and invented the idea of a double-click >as an alternate type of input. > >You could argue that today's more sophisticated users can handle >multiple-button mice and you might even be right. Certainly you can buy >them for the Mac if you want. > >Still we know that, in those days, a single button mouse was better, >because they TESTED actual people and found out. This statement exemplifies what, in my opinion, is wrong with a lot of user interface design. Everyone seems to concentrate on what is easiest for new users, when what is actually needed is a system which is efficient to use once it has been learnt. People -- both users and designers -- fail to realise that a little extra offort spent learning something can make a huge difference later on. Why is it that the main criterion for an "easy to use" system is ease of learning? -- -- Duncan Grisby -- -- dpg1001@cam.ac.uk -- -- finger dpg1001@badges.cl.cam.ac.uk for PGP public key -- ###### From: atbowler@thinkage.on.ca (Alan Bowler) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 24 Feb 1998 21:02:46 GMT Organization: Thinkage Ltd. Lines: 11 Message-ID: <6cvchm$mjr$1@nntp3.uunet.ca> References: <6c4jf9$k1k@world6.bellatlantic.net> <6cupot$htl$1@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.102.11.4 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uunet.ca!atbowler In article <6cupot$htl$1@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk> Duncan Grisby writes: > >Why is it that the main criterion for an "easy to use" system is ease >of learning? Because the criteria, is NOT "what will make the user productive", it is "what will make the salesman most productive". The salesman is cultured in "marketing theory" that maintains what is being sold is irrelevant (I.e. it is beneath his dignity to actually know something about the product), and the purchase choice is made by soeone other than the user (think of Dilbert's pointy headed boss). ###### From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 24 Feb 1998 23:53:11 GMT Lines: 35 Message-ID: <6cvmh7$1de$3@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <6ct7ve$4rm@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-164.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!peernews.ftech.net!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1998-02-24 hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com(LisaorJeff) said: :Why can't someone get a bare bones PC for $200? we bought a 286 the other day for 30 pounds; does that count? as regards your analogy, though; there are obvious differences between radios at both ends of the spectrum. the circuits will be quite different, the high-end ones will have much better sensitivity, etc. but in a computer system, the driving force is the software - if it doesn't run the software du jour, it doesn't cut it, and these days the software du jour is win95 - and really, aside from having more hard disk, or more ram (though it still wants to swap with 64mb - why...?) or bigger and better hard drives... you're stuck with the basic specification (plus a heap of mechanical bits whose manufacturing price stays about constant). that basic spec just can't be done for much under a grand (or 600 quid over here). things were different in the days of home computers, where you basically sequestered the family tv and tape deck and what you paid for was the odd little box you could play on - but nowadays, the shape of pcs is predefined, and it's just not worth making anything less. we'd love to see a basic computer coming out, which had lightweight software, a minimal spec (floppy-storage only perhaps?), a cheaper-than-cheap monitor, and a nice tiny keyboard. price $100. but can it be done...? we suspect it can be, it has been, and it's called a second-hand atari st. :< -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ###### From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 24 Feb 1998 23:53:15 GMT Message-ID: <6cvmhb$1de$4@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: man-164.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 52 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1998-02-23 ehrice@his.com(EdwardRice) said: :hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com (Lisa or Jeff) wrote: :> Getting back to Gates, how people REALLY need a Pentium CPU with :> 16 Meg of RAM? Most home users do not need all that horsepower to :> write a letter to the electric company. Indeed, an awful lot of :> business users write very simple memos or spreadsheets and would :> do fine with the horsepower of an 8088 or even a CPM machine. :> But Gates sold us on having Windows 95. And Intel has sold us :> on having a Pentium II MMX. You often hear people bragging about :> their CPU just as people bragged years back about their cars. :What was the price of an 8088 system with printer, scope, :"high-speed" 1200-baud modem, and as much memory as you needed to :hang on it? :What is the price of a like Pentium system? "like"? no, "like" would be asking what the price of an 8088 system would be today. and the answer is... not enough less than the pentium. sure, less, because your cpu would be $5 rather than $50 (or is it $25 these days?) and you'd only have to buy one 1Mb SIMM ($4) rather than 2 8Mb ones ($40). but you've only saved $81; you still need everything else to go with it, and it's just not worth the economy, sadly. you can buy things for farthings on the second hand market; but businesses looking to equip their office buildings will need more stability than that. :Now, why should we give up cheap, fast computers in favor of :not-as-cheap slower computers? don't - just boot up dos sometime, load the ten-year-old word processor of your choice (you know, the one you adored until you got a *much* faster machine and bought word / installed lyx / whatever, the one you found perfectly usable on a system with 2 floppies) and watch it fly. *that's* why the passing of such computers is sad. when programmers were up against it, they came through. now their life is easy, and the programs are sloppy. *sigh* -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ###### From: dski@cameonet.cameo.com.twx (Dan Strychalski) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 9 Mar 1998 12:14:24 GMT Organization: Cameo Communications, Inc. Lines: 82 Message-ID: <6e0mf0$rv1@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.72.104.4 Originator: dski@ Path: ccw.ch!bali.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-feed.fnsi.net!news.idt.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!spring.edu.tw!feeder.seed.net.tw!news.seed.net.tw!!dski This goes back a ways, but it needs saying. Quoting me and responding in , Communa posted -- > :What we have seen, what the DOJ has attempted to address, is only > :the tip of the iceberg. > > don't, please don't. You misunderstand. I wouldn't, couldn't, can't, and won't. People have been telling me for twelve years that I should -- and I never have. I'm a writer and a translator. The first thing I realized after starting to understand the workings of computers was that plain ASCII Control-key combinations, properly supported, meant I should never have to lift my hands from typing position in the course of my work on any microcomputer in existence. I was ecstatic. I considered this the greatest advance in the mechanics of writing since clay tablets, the greatest advance in machine operation since the lever. I was astounded at the elegance of the correspondence between character and control codes; I silently thanked whoever had formulated that standard, and all those who adhered to it in designing computer hardware and software. I nearly wept in gratitude. Gates disabled it. He didn't allow a choice between Control-key combinations on the one hand and out-of-the-way vendor-specific keys on the other, as many developers did at the time, nor did he put Control-key combinations to some other use after putting all basic control functions on IBM's dedicated cursor, function, paging, and editing keys. He simply moved all control functions to vendor-specific keystrokes and *disabled* whatever standards-based keystrokes he could get away with disabling, in both his text-based and his all-graphical sloughware. He peremptorily and gratituously *obliterated* a basic system resource. He robbed me; he robbed all of us. There is no question of forgiveness, appeasement, compromise, or acquiescence on my part. Gates is a criminal, and his crimes must be uncovered and undone, at the very least. (Note that I came to understand control codes [and so much more!] by studying a hexadecimal ASCII table in a CP/M manual. It took a while; I didn't even know at first that the table was in hex, or what hex was, but eventually the base 5 that I'd learned [no, not learned, just studied] fourteen years before in high school came back, and understanding EXPLODED on me.... MS/PC DOS manuals contain hex notation -- but there has *never* been a proper hexadecimal ASCII table in an MS/PC DOS manual.) What I meant by my comment about the tip of the iceberg is that the browser issue, though it might be important, pales in comparison to the squelched innovations, the undermined standards, the ruined companies, and the spreading ignorance resulting from the depredations of nearly two decades. There is much, much more than per-processor pricing and browser integration/bundling/what-have-you for the U.S. Dept. of Justice and other governmental agencies around the world to go after. I would give anything to know more about the "ongoing investigations" the DOJ keeps alluding to. > the thought that keeps us going in this industry is > that microsoft's nemesis can't be too far away now. take that away from > us and we might as well shove pencils up our nostrils, underpants on our > head, and sit in a corner drooling and saying things like "wibble", > "millenium hand and shrimp", and "that bill gates is a really wonderful > person, he's done wonders for the computer industry". Can a single person, organization, or phenomenon do it? Gary Reback? Ralph Nader? The European Commission? The US DOJ? Java? Linux? I doubt it. (Obviously I'm not a huge fan of Netscape or Sun.) Is a single nemesis what we want, anyway? The fight, as I see it, is in large degree one for *choice*, for *diversity* held together by non-proprietary standards. Not that I don't think you know that. Your tag line shows that you choose to be part of the solution and not part of the problem, that you are not just waiting for some nemesis to come along. But I felt it needed saying. > is volkswriter for dos still available in some form somewhere? first > word processor we ever used for dos. best as far as we can remember, > too. I haven't the foggiest. I never saw the program. Word Processors 'R` Us, though, and I'm very curious to know what you liked about it. Dan Strychalski dski at cameonet, cameo, com, tw. Apologies for the anti-spam devices and non-threading newsreader. ###### From: batemand@NO~SPAM.buck.com (Daniel Bateman) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Mon, 09 Mar 98 15:56:10 GMT Organization: Bell Atlantic Internet Solutions Lines: 37 Message-ID: <6e13mn$dhf@world2.bellatlantic.net> References: <34EB9CAB.2076@azstarnet.com> <6d1usn$dhf$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.111.6.11 X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.0 Path: ccw.ch!bali.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!newsfeed.interlog.com!news.uunet.ca!world2.bellatlantic.net!rudolph In article <6d1usn$dhf$1@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM>, writer1@Eng.Sun.COM wrote: >In article 2076@azstarnet.com, bill_h writes: >> writer1@Eng.Sun.COM wrote: >> > The OS (QDOS) bought from Seattle Computer Products was a crude product, >> > which required a major effort to convert into MS-DOS. >> > >> > Sabu >> >> There are good reasons to doubt there ever was a QDOS. If ANYONE, including >> Bob Morrisette (sabu) can produce ANYTHING contemporaneous with it's >> alleged gestation period, then DO SO! >> >> Seattle Computer Products (Tim Paterson) created? developed? plagerized? >> 86-DOS. The earliest versions, 0.1 and 0.3, were sent, in very small numbers >> (probably under a hundred copies) to OEM's, reviewers, and developers. >> Version 1.0 was sold, along with Seattle Computer's S-100 8086 and support >> boards, to the public for a couple years or so. IBM's Personal Computer >> DOS was based on 86-DOS version 1.0, which was NOT backward compatible >> with the earlier versions. >> >> I can't confirm, but believe, that the 8086 operating system was sold under >> several names PRIOR to the release of the IBM PC, including SCP DOS. >--------------------------------- >All of the literature on Microsoft mention Tim Paterson and his >almost CP/M clone he called QDOS. "The Making of Microsoft" by Ichbiah >and Knepper (1993), and "Gates" by Manes and Andrews are good examples. >It is difficult to believe that all Microsoft authors would make the >same mistake about QDOS. Paterson later sold it as 86-DOS and licensed >it to Microsoft under that name. It took a major effort by Microsoft to >make 86-DOS into MS-DOS. > I just wanted to break in here and say that it's amazing how hard it is for us to get a story straight from a mere 15 years ago. Makes you wonder how much of the history we've been taught is true. Dan ###### From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 9 Mar 1998 22:39:38 GMT Lines: 20 Message-ID: <6e1r3a$lfh$7@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <6dp1ar$k2b@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-163.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Path: ccw.ch!bali.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!btnet-peer!btnet-feed1!btnet!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1998-03-06 raphael@cs.mcgill.ca said: :NewDeal Office claims to have done just that. I tried looking at it :- I didn't really take the time to test it out (being that I don't :use /any/ office suite very much, so I don't have anything to :compare it against), but it seemed to be incredibly fast on my :Pentium. They claim that it'll run on just about any *86 computer, :maybe even 8088 (I can't remember). Anyone ever used it? I like the :concept, if nothing else. we never used newdeal, but we did use its predecessor, geoworks (version 1) which would have been great - a truly efficient gui, even on an 8088, and object-oriented from top to bottom as well as written in assembly language - except for the general lack of (a) software other than the rather weak bundle (a wp with no find and replace? come on now...) and (b) acceptably-priced development kits. a great shame... -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... ###### From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 9 Mar 1998 22:39:59 GMT Lines: 139 Message-ID: <6e1r3v$lfh$10@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <6e0mf0$rv1@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-163.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Path: ccw.ch!bali.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!158.43.192.17!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.clara.net!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1998-03-09 dski@cameonet.cameo.com.twx(DanStrychalski) said: :This goes back a ways, but it needs saying. we read your post and we agree with it almost 100%. :> don't, please don't. :You misunderstand. I wouldn't, couldn't, can't, and won't. People :have been telling me for twelve years that I should -- and I never :have. we don't misunderstand, we never thought you would. it's just that we despair of never having choice again. :I'm a writer and a translator. The first thing I realized after :starting to understand the workings of computers was that plain :ASCII Control-key combinations, properly supported, meant I should :never have to lift my hands from typing position in the course of :my work on any microcomputer in existence. I was ecstatic. I we never got to grips with control keys for cursor keys, but even the humblest of cp/m micros had them. but control keys for everything else, certainly. for 2 years we used vde as our word processor. it had everything, and you could get at it all without moving from the rectangle in the middle. and we weren't a typist then - we're almost a touch typist now, but we found it even more valuable then. :Gates disabled it. He didn't allow a choice between :Control-key combinations on the one hand and out-of-the-way :vendor-specific keys on the other, as many developers did at the :time, nor did he put Control-key combinations to some other use :after putting all basic control functions on IBM's dedicated cursor, :function, paging, and editing keys. He simply moved all control :functions to vendor-specific keystrokes and *disabled* whatever :standards-based keystrokes he could get away with disabling, in :both his text-based and his all-graphical sloughware. He :peremptorily and gratituously *obliterated* a basic system resource. :He robbed me; he robbed all of us. There is no question of :forgiveness, appeasement, compromise, or acquiescence on my part. :Gates is a criminal, and his crimes must be uncovered and undone, :at the very least. oh, gates' crimes go much further than that. for a start there was the deliberate sinking of a decent operating system once he realised that the broken dung heap that was windows was actually taking off. the refusal to even contemplate allowing ms-dos to become a remotely powerful (read "usable") system. the anti-competitive programming techniques, the "bundle and exterminate" approach to competition (the browser is just the latest manifestation of that - anyone remember stacker?)... and the worst thing is that we've all just sat back and let it happen. there was a time when microsoft "weren't that bad", even though it has been blatantly obvious throughout its history that bill gates wanted microsoft software running on every machine, everywhere, to the exclusion of all else. now it's happened, and he hasn't needed to do anything - simply by withholding documentation on crucial parts of the system he releases until he has developed software that uses it and can be released simultaneously. not necessarily good software, but when it glues itself to the os, what can you do about it really? :What I meant by my comment about the tip of the iceberg is that the :browser issue, though it might be important, pales in comparison to :the squelched innovations, the undermined standards, the ruined :companies, and the spreading ignorance resulting from the :depredations of nearly two decades. There is much, much more than :per-processor pricing and browser :integration/bundling/what-have-you for the U.S. Dept. of Justice :and other governmental agencies around the world to go after. I :would give anything to know more about the "ongoing investigations" :the DOJ keeps alluding to. it won't do any good though. the DOJ has to use laws formulated well before the current environment, and it may not even understand what it has taken on. besides which, microsoft is multinational, and the DOJ's ruling will only have an effect in the us. and in any case - look what they have done; microsoft have unbundled the thing, but are still selling the bundled version, for precisely $0.00 more than the unbundled version. what is required is for microsoft to be forcibly broken up in the same way as at&t was back in the 80s. will they do it? hmm... :>the thought that :>keeps us going in this industry is that microsoft's nemesis can't :>be too far away now. take that away from us and we might as well :>shove pencils up our nostrils, underpants on our head, and sit in :>a corner drooling and saying things like "wibble", "millenium :>hand and shrimp", and "that bill gates is a really wonderful :>person, he's done wonders for the computer industry". :Can a single person, organization, or phenomenon do it? Gary :Reback? Ralph Nader? The European Commission? The US DOJ? Java? :Linux? I doubt it. (Obviously I'm not a huge fan of Netscape or Sun. :) Is a single nemesis what we want, anyway? The fight, as I see it, :is in large degree one for *choice*, for *diversity* held together :by non-proprietary standards. perhaps it's time for someone to rewrite "1984" for the computer industry... what we want to know is how has this happened? how did we get to the point in this industry where there is no real choice, where most of the software running on most of the computers is written by one and only one software company...? what happened to diversity? do people *want* diversity in the computer world? or will they just use whatever came bundled with the computer? :Not that I don't think you know that. Your tag line shows that you :choose to be part of the solution and not part of the problem, that :you are not just waiting for some nemesis to come along. But I felt :it needed saying. no, we aren't waiting. so long as we stay ms-free at home, we can keep our integrity. (we have opendos on both our other computers, we have to transfer it across to this one at some point.) it's the fact that though everyone in our workplace hates ms equally, we all sit around and fiddle it into kind of working ish just about because it's what our users (techno-idiots, mainly - the ones that aren't still use unix) say they want, and we're too fucking wet to tell them not to be stupid, to tell them that if they want to do what they ask for they're going to have to use a proper system. this doesn't happen in any other industry; can you imagine a client telling a lawyer to use this law instead in building a defence, because he's heard good things and it came free with his summons...? :> is volkswriter for dos still available in some form somewhere? :>first word processor we ever used for dos. best as far as we can :>remember, too. :I haven't the foggiest. I never saw the program. Word Processors :'R` Us, though, and I'm very curious to know what you liked about :it. so would we. that's why we want a copy, to remind ourself. ;> it was a long time ago and we've used many things since then... -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil.Franklin.remove.this@ccw.ch Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 11 Mar 1998 21:40:19 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 45 Message-ID: References: <6e0mf0$rv1@news.seed.net.tw> <6e1r3v$lfh$10@irk.zetnet.co.uk> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 On 1998-03-09 dski@cameonet.cameo.com.twx(DanStrychalski) said: :This goes back a ways, but it needs saying. lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: > we read your post and we agree with it almost 100%. > what is required is for microsoft to be forcibly broken up in the same > way as at&t was back in the 80s. will they do it? hmm... That would be good. But I don't think the DOJ has enough teeth left. Taking on an business legend requires a lot of stamina to withstand all the accusations of destroying "Americas strength". :Can a single person, organization, or phenomenon do it? Gary :Reback? Ralph Nader? The European Commission? The US DOJ? Java? : Linux? I doubt it. (Obviously I'm not a huge fan of Netscape or Sun. :) Is a single nemesis what we want, anyway? The fight, as I see it, :is in large degree one for *choice*, for *diversity* held together :by non-proprietary standards. Replacing one evil empire with an other is no step forward. But the free software momement (GNU, BSD, Linux) looks more and more like an escape from the present situation (images of Star Wars rebels appear). > do people *want* diversity in the computer world? or will they just use > whatever came bundled with the computer? I don't think most droids want choice. It is inefficient in their book. They actually go out and deliberatly buy Office, despite WordPad being there. It is the File formats that drive them, the illusion of easy data exchange (at least if they all stay obediently upgraded). He who controls the file formats controls them all (images from Lord of the Rings, Sauron with that famous BG grin, where is the cream pie?). A free Mozilla with all W3 extensions being added will prevent him from doing that on the Internet. Reduce MS to being simply one software vendor, not the world ruler. -- private: Neil.Franklin.remove.this@ccw.ch, http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ office: franklin.remove.this@arch.ethz.ch, http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ I don't like it Microsoft, I like it Megahard If I go missing, its once again my newsfeed that has craped ###### From: jnickelsen@acm.org (Juergen Nickelsen) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 22:19:26 +0100 Organization: Unlimited Surprise Systems, Berlin Lines: 22 Message-ID: <1d5qzto.18z0t9a8aj9mwN@n227h094.berlin.snafu.de> References: <34E46A46.148B6C99@mdisystems.com> <6c4jf9$k1k@world6.bellatlantic.net> <6c5gcv$862$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6ddvg9$3qv@hexium.magnet> <6ducn9$va7$1@pravda.tisip.no> <6e0mf0$rv1@news.seed.net.tw> <6e1r3v$lfh$10@irk.zetnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: n227h094.berlin.snafu.de X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.3 Path: ccw.ch!bali.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!194.162.162.196!newsfeed.nacamar.de!fu-berlin.de!unlisys!news.snafu.de!jnickelsen wrote: > what is required is for microsoft to be forcibly broken up in the same > way as at&t was back in the 80s. will they do it? hmm... This could indeed be the way to go. Some colleagues and I discussed this some weeks ago and came up with the following independent divisions MS should be split into: - Operating systems - User applications (Office, Money, etc.) - Programming tools (compilers etc.) - Entertainment (games, Internet Explorer, whatever) Remarks: Yes, I think IE is an entertainment program, as well as Netscape Navigator at least since Version 4. "Microsoft Network" isn't worth mentioning anymore, or, is it? Any other opinions? -- Juergen Nickelsen ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.texas.net!nntp.flash.net!news.blkbox.COM!s58.max1.houston.box.net!user From: sderby@blkbox.com (Stuart P. Derby) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 01:22:33 -0600 Organization: As Little As Possible, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <6e0mf0$rv1@news.seed.net.tw> <6e1r3v$lfh$10@irk.zetnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: s58.max1.houston.box.net X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.3.1 In article , p.kerr@auckland.ac.nz (Peter Kerr) wrote: > I have dug my heels in: I will not install in our department any version > of Excel greater than 4, or any version of Word greater than 5.1, because > I will not accept responsibility for the effing macro viruses. Dunno how > much longer I can hold out tho', the heat's going on... What amazes me most about the macro problem is that a simple switch to disable auto-run of macros, and a default position of "off", would stop the macro virus problem in its tracks. I used to support a 25 person office and not a b---dy one of 'em used macros, but every month there I was, updating virus defintion files. If it weren't for Microsoft, the Mac virus problem would be almost dead. There was what, 1 or 2 variants of system viruses found last year? -Stu -- sderby@blkbox.com ###### From: pik@esmay.apana.org.au.no.junk.mail (Craig Pickering) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 14 Mar 1998 16:15:01 +1100 Organization: Phantasie Faktor - Kurri Kurri, NSW, Australia Lines: 9 Message-ID: <6ed3ol$qh@hexium.magnet> References: <6e0mf0$rv1@news.seed.net.tw> <6e1r3v$lfh$10@irk.zetnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: hexium.magnet X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.eecs.umich.edu!attila.apana.org.au!esmay.apana.org.au!esmay.apana.org.au!not-for-mail Peter Kerr (p.kerr@auckland.ac.nz) wrote: : Let's not forget that Gates made the best WP, and the best spreadsheet, Made, bought, or watched? -Pik. -- -- PiKTag v0.01L > "Is your head clear?" "No, it's opaque." ###### From: wall@bacon.ethz.ch (Ernst U. Wallenborn) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 14 Mar 1998 17:06:31 +0100 Organization: ETH Zurich Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <34E46A46.148B6C99@mdisystems.com> <6c4jf9$k1k@world6.bellatlantic.net> <6c5gcv$862$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6ddvg9$3qv@hexium.magnet> <6ducn9$va7$1@pravda.tisip.no> <6e0mf0$rv1@news.seed.net.tw> <6e1r3v$lfh$10@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <1d5qzto.18z0t9a8aj9mwN@n227h094.berlin.snafu.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: bacon.ethz.ch X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Path: ccw.ch!bali.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.wli.net!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!news-peer.gip.net!news-penn.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.belnet.be!news-zh.switch.ch!elna.ethz.ch!not-for-mail jnickelsen@acm.org (Juergen Nickelsen) writes: > wrote: > This could indeed be the way to go. Some colleagues and I discussed this > some weeks ago and came up with the following independent divisions MS > should be split into: > - Operating systems > - User applications (Office, Money, etc.) > - Programming tools (compilers etc.) > - Entertainment (games, Internet Explorer, whatever) you'd only replace one big fast growing monopoly with four small slow (initially) growing monopolies. what we need is competition in OSes. In the UNIX world, if one company doesn't get the job done, you can go to the next store and buy there. with MS this is not the case and (as usual in communist systems) bad things result. -- -- Ernst-Udo Wallenborn Laboratorium fuer Physikalische Chemie ETH Zuerich ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? References: <34E46A46.148B6C99@mdisystems.com> <6c4jf9$k1k@world6.bellatlantic.net> <6c5gcv$862$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6ddvg9$3qv@hexium.magnet> <6ducn9$va7$1@pravda.tisip.no> <6e0mf0$rv1@news.seed.net.tw> <6e1r3v$lfh$10@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <1d5qzto.18z0t9a8aj9mwN@n227h094.berlin.snafu.de> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.1 (NOV) From: mtpins@visi.com (Michael T Pins) Lines: 31 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 00:35:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: thumper.visi.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 18:35:38 CST Path: ccw.ch!bali.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!News.Vancouver.iSTAR.net!News.Toronto.iSTAR.net!news.istar.net!ais.net!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail wall@bacon.ethz.ch (Ernst U. Wallenborn) writes: >jnickelsen@acm.org (Juergen Nickelsen) writes: >> wrote: >> This could indeed be the way to go. Some colleagues and I discussed this >> some weeks ago and came up with the following independent divisions MS >> should be split into: >> - Operating systems >> - User applications (Office, Money, etc.) >> - Programming tools (compilers etc.) >> - Entertainment (games, Internet Explorer, whatever) >you'd only replace one big fast growing monopoly with four >small slow (initially) growing monopolies. Well, no. There are other user apps as good as, or better than, those from M$. (Quicken springs to mind.) If Office didn't come bundled, and had to actually compete, it wouldn't have the market share it does. Ditto for compilers (see Borland), web browsers (Netscrape), games (lots of companies), etc. -- ************************************************************************ * Michael T Pins | mtpins@visi.com * * keeper of the nn sources | mtpins@isca.uiowa.edu * * ftp.isca.uiowa.edu | #include * ###### From: afcasta@texas.net (Al Castanoli) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? References: <34E46A46.148B6C99@mdisystems.com> <6c4jf9$k1k@world6.bellatlantic.net> <6c5gcv$862$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6ddvg9$3qv@hexium.magnet> <6ducn9$va7$1@pravda.tisip.no> <6e0mf0$rv1@news.seed.net.tw> <6e1r3v$lfh$10@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <1d5qzto.18z0t9a8aj9mwN@n227h094.berlin.snafu.de> Organization: BagEnd Pixel Remodellers LTD X-No-Archive: yes Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.3.2 UNIX) Lines: 34 Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 14:55:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.127.4.3 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 08:55:33 CST Path: ccw.ch!bali.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!ais.net!nntp.texas.net!typhoon.texas.net!not-for-mail On Sun, 15 Mar 1998 15:16:42 +0100, John Hendrickx wrote in article : [...] :For an intel machine, you can choose from OS/2, NextStep, BeOS, Linux. :But if you want apps as well as an OS, MS is well, not your only choice, :but ... This wouldn't change if MS were split up either. The basic :problem is that it's too hard to port applications between platforms. :It's not economically feasible to make say, Wordperfect or Lotus for :Linux, the market is too small and the MS market is too lucrative. http://www.caldera.com/products/updates/wmb.html shows a native Linux port of WordPerfect. Caldera also sells a Linux port of WABI, whereby MS Office 4.3 and such can run on Linux. There is also the WordPerfect howto in the Linux Documentation Project, for those who already have the vanilla UNIX version of WP and wish to run it on Linux. I dunno about Lotus, but StarOffice and ApplixWare have also been ported to Linux. I don't think Netscape would have ported Communicator to Linux if they felt there was no market for it. -- Al Castanoli | home - afcasta@texas.net | work - afcasta@aia.af.mil | alternates - afn22800@afn.org & ah446@rgfn.epcc.edu "Usenet II -- because it's time for October" (Malcolm Ray in n.s.u.) ###### From: J.Hendrickx@maw.kun.nl (John Hendrickx) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 15:16:42 +0100 Organization: University of Nijmegen Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <34E46A46.148B6C99@mdisystems.com> <6c4jf9$k1k@world6.bellatlantic.net> <6c5gcv$862$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6ddvg9$3qv@hexium.magnet> <6ducn9$va7$1@pravda.tisip.no> <6e0mf0$rv1@news.seed.net.tw> <6e1r3v$lfh$10@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <1d5qzto.18z0t9a8aj9mwN@n227h094.berlin.snafu.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: ib089.extern.kun.nl X-Newsreader: Anawave Gravity v2.00 Path: ccw.ch!bali.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!newsfeed.internetmci.com!192.87.106.104!surfnet.nl!barba.uci.kun.nl!not-for-mail In article , wall@bacon.ethz.ch says... > jnickelsen@acm.org (Juergen Nickelsen) writes: > > > wrote: > > > This could indeed be the way to go. Some colleagues and I discussed this > > some weeks ago and came up with the following independent divisions MS > > should be split into: > > - Operating systems > > - User applications (Office, Money, etc.) > > - Programming tools (compilers etc.) > > - Entertainment (games, Internet Explorer, whatever) > > > you'd only replace one big fast growing monopoly with four > small slow (initially) growing monopolies. > > what we need is competition in OSes. In the UNIX world, if > one company doesn't get the job done, you can go to > the next store and buy there. with MS this is not the > case and (as usual in communist systems) bad things result. For an intel machine, you can choose from OS/2, NextStep, BeOS, Linux. But if you want apps as well as an OS, MS is well, not your only choice, but ... This wouldn't change if MS were split up either. The basic problem is that it's too hard to port applications between platforms. It's not economically feasible to make say, Wordperfect or Lotus for Linux, the market is too small and the MS market is too lucrative. We need crossplatform development tools. If it's easy to write a program that runs on any platform, software makers will stick out their scrawny necks just a little and start supporting alternative platforms that have a large enough user-base to be popular. *Then* we'll have a real choice of OSes. ###### From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 16 Mar 1998 19:48:37 GMT Message-ID: <6ejvml$hbj$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: man-076.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 33 Path: ccw.ch!bali.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1998-03-14 wall@bacon.ethz.ch(ErnstU.Wallenborn) said: :you'd only replace one big fast growing monopoly with four :small slow (initially) growing monopolies. no, you're wrong. microsoft has been able to get to the point it's at because it supplies - or can supply - *everything* in a computer, in one package. people now know they need to buy everything at once, so why take the trouble to buy more than one different package, or from more than one different manufacturer. :what we need is competition in OSes. In the UNIX world, if :one company doesn't get the job done, you can go to :the next store and buy there. for many many years, you could only get a commercial-grade unix from the manufacturer of your machine. linux shook things up considerably, as did stallman's gnu project (what's the status of the gnu kernel now?); it wasn't always this way. time was when microsoft were the good guys... :with MS this is not the :case and (as usual in communist systems) bad things result. bzzzzt! wrong. the computer industry is an instance of laissez-faire capitalism as pure as is ever likely to exist. this is what happens. when it comes down to it, there is *no* difference - it all comes down to the powerlust inherent in every human. (anyway, wine is getting pretty good these days.) -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... ###### From: bjr6@freenet.tlh.fl.us (Benjamin Robinson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Organization: Bandwidth Wasters, Intl. Message-ID: <350b1a42.14262657@198.69.104.3> References: <6e0mf0$rv1@news.seed.net.tw> <6e1r3v$lfh$10@irk.zetnet.co.uk> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 35 Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 00:37:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: max-tnt-39.digital.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:37:33 EST Path: ccw.ch!bali.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news-in-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!198.69.104.3!ddi2.digital.net!not-for-mail In "Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ," Stuart P. Derby wrote: > What amazes me most about the macro problem is that a simple switch to >disable auto-run of macros, and a default position of "off", would stop >the macro virus problem in its tracks. Word macro viruses spread by embedding themselves in document templates (the ".DOT" files), right? On my office computer, I marked all of those as being read-only, reasoning that if the virus couldn't modify them, it couldn't spread, either. This was much simpler than the official procedure, which was to detach an incoming Word document from its mail message, and run a DOS-based marco virus scanner. It wasn't the perfect solution. You couldn't add new text styles to your "normal" template, so your templates had to be pretty stable before write-protecting them. Also, this method doesn't remove viruses, so you could still pass them along to the next unwitting victim. The auto-run on/off switch Mr. Derby suggested would be the best solution. Perhaps we'll get it in Word99... -- Benjamin Robinson bjr6@freenet.tlh.fl.us This message may or may not contain sarcastic content; your burden to decide Your spam has become tiresome. Add 1 to username to reply by e-mail "Words are very unnecessary; they can only do harm" - Depeche Mode ###### From: dazed@xs4all.co.uk.wo (Mike Schenk) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 19 Mar 1998 22:59:13 +0100 Organization: Dazed and Confused Message-ID: <6es4fh$hdi$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> References: <6e0mf0$rv1@news.seed.net.tw> <350b1a42.14262657@198.69.104.3> NNTP-Posting-Host: xs1.xs4all.nl X-XS4ALL-Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 22:59:15 CET X-no-archive: yes X-Disclaimer: The opinions stated in this article are not necessarily supported in a sobre mood. X-Newsreader: TRN for WinNT 8.65a Lines: 29 Path: ccw.ch!bali.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!bullseye.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!xs4all!xs4all!not-for-mail Benjamin Robinson writes in alt.folklore.computers: >In "Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ," Stuart P. Derby wrote: > >> What amazes me most about the macro problem is that a simple switch to >>disable auto-run of macros, and a default position of "off", would stop >>the macro virus problem in its tracks. > >Word macro viruses spread by embedding themselves in document templates (the >".DOT" files), right? On my office computer, I marked all of those as being >read-only, reasoning that if the virus couldn't modify them, it couldn't >spread, either. This was much simpler than the official procedure, which >was to detach an incoming Word document from its mail message, and run a >DOS-based marco virus scanner. > >It wasn't the perfect solution. You couldn't add new text styles to your >"normal" template, so your templates had to be pretty stable before >write-protecting them. Also, this method doesn't remove viruses, so you >could still pass them along to the next unwitting victim. The auto-run >on/off switch Mr. Derby suggested would be the best solution. Perhaps we'll >get it in Word99... Unfortunately, that means we have to wait till at least 2002. Mike -- Unsollicited advertisements sent to my account will be charged at USD 25.00 for the first message and USD 100.00 for all subsequent messages from the same source. These charges include my fee for reading the message and my connection fees to the phone company. ###### From: dazed@xs4all.co.uk.wo (Mike Schenk) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 19 Mar 1998 23:02:04 +0100 Organization: Dazed and Confused Message-ID: <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> References: <6e1r3v$lfh$10@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <1d5qzto.18z0t9a8aj9mwN@n227h094.berlin.snafu.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: xs1.xs4all.nl X-XS4ALL-Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 23:02:09 CET X-no-archive: yes X-Disclaimer: The opinions stated in this article are not necessarily supported in a sobre mood. X-Newsreader: TRN for WinNT 8.65a Lines: 35 Path: ccw.ch!bali.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!EU.net!sun4nl!bullseye.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!xs4all!xs4all!not-for-mail Ernst U. Wallenborn writes in alt.folklore.computers: >jnickelsen@acm.org (Juergen Nickelsen) writes: > >> wrote: > >> This could indeed be the way to go. Some colleagues and I discussed this >> some weeks ago and came up with the following independent divisions MS >> should be split into: >> - Operating systems >> - User applications (Office, Money, etc.) >> - Programming tools (compilers etc.) >> - Entertainment (games, Internet Explorer, whatever) > > >you'd only replace one big fast growing monopoly with four >small slow (initially) growing monopolies. > >what we need is competition in OSes. In the UNIX world, if >one company doesn't get the job done, you can go to >the next store and buy there. with MS this is not the >case and (as usual in communist systems) bad things result. There is competition in OSs. Any system that runs NT or WIN95 could just as well run at least Linux or OS2. So there must be another reason people stick with MS OSs other than "there is no alternative" cause there is. After all, when one buys an HP or SUN workstation there isn't much alternative for OSs either (in fact less than for an Intel based PC). Mike -- Unsollicited advertisements sent to my account will be charged at USD 25.00 for the first message and USD 100.00 for all subsequent messages from the same source. These charges include my fee for reading the message and my connection fees to the phone company. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!ais.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!ganymede.isdn.uiuc.edu!wendling From: wendling@news.cso.uiuc.edu (Bil Wendling) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 20 Mar 1998 07:06:24 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign Lines: 53 Message-ID: <6et4hg$qg6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> References: <6e1r3v$lfh$10@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <1d5qzto.18z0t9a8aj9mwN@n227h094.berlin.snafu.de> <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: ganymede.isdn.uiuc.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] What's that again?: } > } >you'd only replace one big fast growing monopoly with four } >small slow (initially) growing monopolies. } > } >what we need is competition in OSes. In the UNIX world, if } >one company doesn't get the job done, you can go to } >the next store and buy there. with MS this is not the } >case and (as usual in communist systems) bad things result. } There is competition in OSs. Any system that runs NT or WIN95 could just } as well run at least Linux or OS2. So there must be another reason } people stick with MS OSs other than "there is no alternative" cause } there is. After all, when one buys an HP or SUN workstation there isn't } much alternative for OSs either (in fact less than for an Intel based } PC). The unfortunate fact of the matter is that there is essentially no choice given. MS, with the help of IBM, was introduced into the corporate world and has entrenched itself. Eventhough MS put out inferior products (read: Apple's interface, NeXT's interface, OS/2), they had a user base already established. When one looks at what system to develop on, they go for the one that will sell the most, in this case MS's OSes. The more products out there for one system which is already in place, the more likely someone will continue running that OS. A feed-back loop occurs where market drives development which drives the market. Example? DOS and Windows. DOS was/is very inferior to other products which were out ther. Windows, as has been mentioned in the group many times before, started out as something just short of absurd (if not going full blown into absurdity). What does this prove? When it comes to purchasing an OS for your machine for company X, you will want to purchase the OS which will run the most apps. Windows95 fits this nicely thanks to this feed-back loop and past, dubious business practices. All of this leads to a very narrowing of choices. Sure, other products may exist, but the going with another system is not a valid option for some people anymore. It would require conversion of entire corporate computer systems which, eventhough they may be bad, would be a big expense which IS professionals would have a hard time convincing their bosses to do...bosses being suits and all :-). What can change this? Linux can run on the same architecture as Windows and can even run some of the same apps. Some apps have been ported to linux. Will Linux defeat Windows? If I knew that, I'd be in Vegas betting on horse races -- || Bil Wendling wendling@ncsa.uiuc.edu ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!server5.netnews.ja.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!newsfeed.ed.ac.uk!news From: Tim Bradshaw Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 20 Mar 1998 15:13:12 +0000 Organization: AIAI, University of Edinburgh Lines: 22 Sender: tfb@todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk Message-ID: References: <6e1r3v$lfh$10@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <1d5qzto.18z0t9a8aj9mwN@n227h094.berlin.snafu.de> <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.2.25/XEmacs 19.14 * Mike Schenk wrote: > There is competition in OSs. Any system that runs NT or WIN95 could just > as well run at least Linux or OS2. So there must be another reason > people stick with MS OSs other than "there is no alternative" cause > there is. Not really, not if you want to exchange Word files, or Excel files, or almost any other Microsoft product's files. You can run Unix or OS/2, but as soon as you start needing to talk to people who run Windows & think it's fine to ship you Word-format MIME attachments you lose. > After all, when one buys an HP or SUN workstation there isn't much > alternative for OSs either (in fact less than for an Intel based > PC). No there isn't (actually, Linux & some of the BSDs run on (some) Suns), but Unix vendors typically don't tie you in with awful proprietary data formats like Windows does. They'd *like* to of course, but they aren't monopolies so they can't. --tim ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!news.iastate.edu!rhawkins From: rhawkins@iastate.edu (Rick Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 20 Mar 1998 20:51:58 GMT Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa USA Lines: 37 Message-ID: <6eukte$iqt$1@news.iastate.edu> References: <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: pv2086.vincent.iastate.edu In article , Tim Bradshaw wrote: >* Mike Schenk wrote: > >> There is competition in OSs. Any system that runs NT or WIN95 could just >> as well run at least Linux or OS2. So there must be another reason >> people stick with MS OSs other than "there is no alternative" cause >> there is. >Not really, not if you want to exchange Word files, or Excel files, or >almost any other Microsoft product's files. You can run Unix or OS/2, >but as soon as you start needing to talk to people who run Windows >& think it's fine to ship you Word-format MIME attachments you lose. Really? Then I guess I didn't install StarOffice on this linux box, and I guess I haven't been able to exchange files, and . . . :) Microsoft would like you to believe that this would be a problem, but it just plain isn't. Also, WordPerfect is available for linux. But why use wordperfect or word when I have lyx? >No there isn't (actually, Linux & some of the BSDs run on (some) >Suns), but Unix vendors typically don't tie you in with awful >proprietary data formats like Windows does. They'd *like* to of >course, but they aren't monopolies so they can't. I've always wanted to be utility when I grow up. Being a government sounds like too much trouble :) -- R E HAWKINS rhawkins@iastate.edu These opinions will not be those of ISU until they pay my retainer. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!203.97.37.6!clear.net.nz!auckland.ac.nz!p.kerr From: p.kerr@auckland.ac.nz (Peter Kerr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 13:56:16 +1200 Organization: School of Music University of Auckland Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <6e1r3v$lfh$10@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <1d5qzto.18z0t9a8aj9mwN@n227h094.berlin.snafu.de> <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: p.kerr.mus.auckland.ac.nz X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b6 Tim Bradshaw wrote: > but as soon as you start needing to talk to people who run Windows > & think it's fine to ship you Word-format MIME attachments you lose. Ah, jes' mosey down the File menu and click Mail... Now MS claim that this is a "feature" demanded by users. Are those who use it with reckless abandon really asserting their power of control over us, or are they just mindless dorks? -- Peter Kerr bodger School of Music chandler University of Auckland NZ neo-Luddite ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!sibyl.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!unclebob From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Sat, 21 Mar 98 22:59:27 GMT Message-ID: <890521167snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: Reply-To: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-User: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-Path: post-20.mail.demon.net!post.mail.demon.net!tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 890522290 2794 unclebob tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.29 Lines: 20 In article tfb@aiai.ed.ac.uk "Tim Bradshaw" writes: > but as soon as you start needing to talk to people who run Windows > & think it's fine to ship you Word-format MIME attachments you lose. There are two ways of looking at this. The other is to say, "the instructions you sent me were unreadable, as they seem to be in a format local to your system, and as I could not receive your instructions I have had to act on my own initiative..." I have got away with such, sometimes BAOFHIP. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!srvr1.engin.umich.edu!ftit From: ftit@engin.umich.edu (Sergej Roytman) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 22 Mar 1998 00:14:22 GMT Organization: University of Michigan, Ann Arbor Lines: 25 Message-ID: <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> References: <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: speer.ummu.umich.edu In article , Tim Bradshaw wrote: >* Mike Schenk wrote: >> [only way to exchange M$-format files] >Not really, not if you want to exchange Word files, or Excel files, or >almost any other Microsoft product's files. You can run Unix or OS/2, >but as soon as you start needing to talk to people who run Windows >& think it's fine to ship you Word-format MIME attachments you lose. I've seen a product called Softwindows (or something like) on some of my company's SGIs. It's a 95 emulator, and comes with many of the standard apps. I've played with it a little, and have gotten it to run other, random programs compiled for 8x86, so I guess it emulates your Intel box from the ground up. An interesting thing I've seen was when I suggested using an SGI server in a project for some non-computer-type users. They were afraid that the Unix box would not be as user-friendly as a Windoze box. After I promised to write a nice interface for them, they thought it was OK. Hm, something significant here? -- Sergej Roytman Use Microsoft's fine line of software products! (100,000,000 lemmings can't be wrong) ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!sibyl.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!darla.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? References: <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.1 (NOV) From: mtpins@visi.com (Michael T Pins) Lines: 33 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 00:29:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: thumper.visi.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 18:29:39 CST ftit@engin.umich.edu (Sergej Roytman) writes: >An interesting thing I've seen was when I suggested using an SGI server >in a project for some non-computer-type users. They were afraid that >the Unix box would not be as user-friendly as a Windoze box. After I >promised to write a nice interface for them, they thought it was OK. >Hm, something significant here? I've never understood this "user-friendly" argument. Workstations have always been more user-friendly than whatever M$ is foisting on people that year. Currently, given the choice between CDE and Win95, CDE is the clear winner. (How do you log out of a Win95 box? Start-Shutdown. This is intuitive???) The problem is, people think unix is a cryptic command-line only system, which it hasn't been since before Windows 1.0 shipped. Of course, the fact that the cryptic (and extrememly powerful) command-line is still there is what makes it useful for the rest of us, but the GUI is there and has been for many years. -- ************************************************************************ * Michael T Pins | mtpins@visi.com * * keeper of the nn sources | mtpins@isca.uiowa.edu * * ftp.isca.uiowa.edu | #include * ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!warm.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 13:22:26 GMT Organization: . Lines: 56 Message-ID: <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> References: <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02a-194-7-46-74.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes mtpins@visi.com (Michael T Pins) told us > I've never understood this "user-friendly" argument. Workstations have > always been more user-friendly than whatever M$ is foisting on people that > year. Currently, given the choice between CDE and Win95, CDE is the clear > winner. (How do you log out of a Win95 box? Start-Shutdown. This is > intuitive???) [Disclaimer: I don't know CDE, just plain X on Linux] This must be the 100th time that I read that "intuitive" argument about logging out. If you know a more intuitive way to do it, please tell us. In the mean time, don't look at "Start" as "start a program", but as a central place where you start doing something (no matter what). Contrary to unix, win95's UI isn't program oriented, it's task oriented - you don't have to know what exact app is doing any job. Or call it object oriented: you can start an app by starting the "document" (read data file) it's supposed to work with, without knowing which app that is. Along the same line, "Shutdown" isn't only shut down the computer, but also shut down the current session. And then, MS *have* moved the logout out of the shutdown corner: it's "Start / log off" now. > The problem is, people think unix is a cryptic command-line only system, > which it hasn't been since before Windows 1.0 shipped. Of course, the fact > that the cryptic (and extrememly powerful) command-line is still there is > what makes it useful for the rest of us, but the GUI is there and has been > for many years. There's a gui, alright, but is it user friendly? With scroll bars that behave differently in just about every other program, just to take an example? What I miss the most is that possibility when the system asks you for a filename, to go browsing for it if you don't remember the exact name or directory. In X you have to know them all by heart, or else start a file manager, locate the file and then *still* enter its full path manually in the other program's box. BTW, can anybody point me to a good file manager that can display a directory tree in one window and automatically sync a second window to show the selected directory's contents, like windows' explorer? (I must admit, I haven't been searching much). Then there's a lot of people complaining about the stupidity of online help in win95: partly I agree, I don't ever look at it either *because I already know the system*. I wish there was the same level of online help in *n*x, telling nothing more than the lowest basics for newbies like me, to be used only until I know the system. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!uninett.no!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!masternews.telia.net!mn6.swip.net!seunet!mn4.swip.net!lorelei!not-for-mail From: hoh@approve.se.NO_JUNK_EMAIL (Goran Larsson) Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Message-ID: <1998Mar22.134207.24019@lorelei.approve.se> Originator: hoh@approve.se.NO_JUNK_EMAIL (Goran Larsson) Sender: hoh@lorelei.approve.se.NO_JUNK_EMAIL (Goran Larsson) Organization: [1] + 5934 done /bin/rm -rf ~/ & X-No-Archive: yes X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test62 (21 February 1998) References: <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 13:42:07 GMT Lines: 13 In article , Tim Bradshaw wrote: > but as soon as you start needing to talk to people who run Windows > & think it's fine to ship you Word-format MIME attachments you lose. No. They lose. If they feel they have anything valuable to say, then it's their problem if they lock themselves into a proprietary format. -- Goran Larsson hoh AT approve DOT se I was an atheist, http://home1 DOT swipnet DOT se/%7Ew-12153/ until I found out I was God. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!nntp.texas.net!news.giganews.com!not-for-mail From: afcasta@texas.net (Al Castanoli) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? References: <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> Reply-To: Al Castanoli X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) Lines: 51 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 14:39:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.127.4.1 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 08:39:36 CST On Sun, 22 Mar 1998 13:22:26 GMT, Luc Van der Veken wrote: in article <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be>: :mtpins@visi.com (Michael T Pins) told us :> I've never understood this "user-friendly" argument. Workstations have :> always been more user-friendly than whatever M$ is foisting on people that :> year. Currently, given the choice between CDE and Win95, CDE is the clear :> winner. (How do you log out of a Win95 box? Start-Shutdown. This is :> intuitive???) : :[Disclaimer: I don't know CDE, just plain X on Linux] [MS put all tasking in start button... Un*x is less intuitive] :BTW, can anybody point me to a good file manager that can display :a directory tree in one window and automatically sync a second :window to show the selected directory's contents, like windows' :explorer? (I must admit, I haven't been searching much). :Then there's a lot of people complaining about the stupidity of :online help in win95: partly I agree, I don't ever look at it :either *because I already know the system*. :I wish there was the same level of online help in *n*x, telling :nothing more than the lowest basics for newbies like me, to be :used only until I know the system. There are a few window managers for X that do just that... Caldera OpenLinux Standard and CDE do that at a price, while the K Desktop Environment offers a free solution for non- commercial use. The help system in KDE is especially easy to follow. While the Caldera desktop is built on Linux, CDE and KDE can be used on the [Open Free Net]BSD Unix work-alike OSes. RedHat and others are working on user friendly free software versions of window managers for the X window system, as well. -- Al Castanoli | home - afcasta@texas.net | work - afcasta@aia.af.mil | freenets - afn22800@afn.org & ah446@rgfn.epcc.edu | San Antonio Linux Users Group - afcasta@alamo.satlug.org Hmm, I bet June Cleaver programs in Java. -Christi Alice Scarborough ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? References: <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.1 (NOV) From: mtpins@visi.com (Michael T Pins) Lines: 96 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 03:41:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: bambi.visi.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 21:41:08 CST lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) writes: >mtpins@visi.com (Michael T Pins) told us >> I've never understood this "user-friendly" argument. Workstations have >> always been more user-friendly than whatever M$ is foisting on people that >> year. Currently, given the choice between CDE and Win95, CDE is the clear >> winner. (How do you log out of a Win95 box? Start-Shutdown. This is >> intuitive???) >[Disclaimer: I don't know CDE, just plain X on Linux] Much like saying "I haven't seen a Mac since 1985, so I'll talk about the small monochome built-in monitors." >This must be the 100th time that I read that "intuitive" argument >about logging out. >If you know a more intuitive way to do it, please tell us. How about an Exit button on the "toolbar"? Or, how do you lock the screen on WinNT? Hit CNTL-ALT-DEL, then hit the lock screen button (there's no point in locking a Win95 screen as they don't even pretend it's secure). Compare to having a padlock on the "toolbar".... >In the mean time, don't look at "Start" as "start a program", but >as a central place where you start doing something (no matter >what). Contrary to unix, win95's UI isn't program oriented, it's >task oriented - you don't have to know what exact app is doing >any job. Or call it object oriented: you can start an app by >starting the "document" (read data file) it's supposed to work >with, without knowing which app that is. Actually, it's nearly impossible to find out what a win95 task is doing. Quite annoying when something isn't working properly. >Along the same line, "Shutdown" isn't only shut down the >computer, but also shut down the current session. Ah yes, that intuitive thing again. "shut down the current session" is something only M$ could pretend made sense. >> The problem is, people think unix is a cryptic command-line only system, >> which it hasn't been since before Windows 1.0 shipped. Of course, the fact >> that the cryptic (and extrememly powerful) command-line is still there is >> what makes it useful for the rest of us, but the GUI is there and has been >> for many years. >There's a gui, alright, but is it user friendly? Considerably more so than Win95. Which has been true at every release since Windoze1.0. >With scroll bars that behave differently in just about every >other program, just to take an example? You mean scroll bars that actually work, and are proportional? M$ scroll bars are the worst designed scroll bars I've ever seen. >What I miss the most is that possibility when the system asks you >for a filename, to go browsing for it if you don't remember the >exact name or directory. In X you have to know them all by heart, >or else start a file manager, locate the file and then *still* >enter its full path manually in the other program's box. If the software you are using doesn't do that, you either need to get better software or a better window manager. >Then there's a lot of people complaining about the stupidity of >online help in win95: partly I agree, I don't ever look at it >either *because I already know the system*. >I wish there was the same level of online help in *n*x, telling >nothing more than the lowest basics for newbies like me, to be >used only until I know the system. Both HP and Sun ship a help system (in addition to the man pages) that are not only easier to use than the M$ BS, but are actually useful (and yes, for novices as well). -- ************************************************************************ * Michael T Pins | mtpins@visi.com * * keeper of the nn sources | mtpins@isca.uiowa.edu * * ftp.isca.uiowa.edu | #include * ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!psinntp!gatech!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!not-for-mail From: cddukes@cc04du.unity.ncsu.edu (Christopher D Dukes) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 23 Mar 1998 04:52:23 GMT Organization: The Alfred Packer Memorial Dining Hall Lines: 8 Message-ID: <6f4pq7$h60$1@uni00nw.unity.ncsu.edu> References: <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: cc03du.unity.ncsu.edu X-Html-LART:

12:00

 X-UCE-Policy-00: Unsolicited Commercial E-mail sent to this account will X-UCE-Policy-01: be billed a $1000 editing fee. The sending of UCE to X-UCE-Policy-02: this account will be considered acceptance of these X-UCE-Policy-03: terms. Worst scrollbars award should go to Lotus Notes client under *IX. I did not realize one could get Motif to behave as poorly as Windows. -- The following must be destroyed. Microsoft, Lyons Partnership. Balkanize USENET! Vote from the rooftops!! The best thing in RTP is now SMOG! Sending unsolicited commercial massmail to this account may result in a network outage for your site. Have a nice day. "Securing a Windows NT system -- Wire Cutters or Thermite?" ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!psinntp!pubxfer.news.psi.net!abigail From: abigail@fnx.com (Abigail) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 23 Mar 1998 06:20:36 GMT Organization: FNX Ltd, Intelligent Risk Management Lines: 86 Message-ID: <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> References: <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> Reply-To: abigail@fnx.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.220.93.3 X-Date: MDCLXV September MCMXCIII X-HTTP: http://cthulhu.mandrake.net/%7Eabigail/ X-Revision: $Revision: 1.2 $ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 76 2E 82 7A 69 93 5F 97 AE 01 80 75 67 F3 45 D0 X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.3.2 UNIX) Luc Van der Veken (lucvdv@null.net) wrote on MDCLXIV September MCMXCIII in : ++ mtpins@visi.com (Michael T Pins) told us ++ ++ > I've never understood this "user-friendly" argument. Workstations have ++ > always been more user-friendly than whatever M$ is foisting on people that ++ > year. Currently, given the choice between CDE and Win95, CDE is the clear ++ > winner. (How do you log out of a Win95 box? Start-Shutdown. This is ++ > intuitive???) ++ ++ [Disclaimer: I don't know CDE, just plain X on Linux] ++ ++ This must be the 100th time that I read that "intuitive" argument ++ about logging out. ++ If you know a more intuitive way to do it, please tell us. That reminds me of a posting recently in comp.risks (19.60); a dialogue between the crew of the Space Shuttle and the Johnson Space Center: Crew: Urgent, Johnson, we can't get a DOS prompt! JSC: Press "C:". Crew: Heck, we're not familiar with all this. JSC: What screen are you looking at? Crew: It says "My Computer", and, er, various other icons. JSC: Click on "Start", and then "Shutdown". Crew: You click the "Start" button to shut down? JSC: Yeah. Isn't it obvious? Crew: Somebody get me an aspirin. JSC: Just hit the damn "Start" button. Crew: We can't do that. It didn't load a mouse. JSC: Didn't load any mouse at all? Crew: Well, yeah, a PS/2 or something. But we don't have one of those. JSC: Okay. Press Alt + Esc. Crew: And what does that do? JSC: It should help. Crew: Negative. JSC: Stand by, will attempt to replicate the problem down here. Crew: Roger. JSC: Okay then. Double-click on the MS-DOS icon. Crew: I don't have a mouse. JSC: Go to the backup plan. Crew: Which is what? JSC: Dock with the Russians. They have a Unix workstation you can borrow. ++ > The problem is, people think unix is a cryptic command-line only system, ++ > which it hasn't been since before Windows 1.0 shipped. Of course, the fact ++ > that the cryptic (and extrememly powerful) command-line is still there is ++ > what makes it useful for the rest of us, but the GUI is there and has been ++ > for many years. ++ ++ There's a gui, alright, but is it user friendly? ++ With scroll bars that behave differently in just about every ++ other program, just to take an example? And why not? Different programs, different needs. ++ What I miss the most is that possibility when the system asks you In UNIX, the system never asks you for a filename. An application might. ++ for a filename, to go browsing for it if you don't remember the ++ exact name or directory. In X you have to know them all by heart, ++ or else start a file manager, locate the file and then *still* ++ enter its full path manually in the other program's box. ++ ++ BTW, can anybody point me to a good file manager that can display ++ a directory tree in one window and automatically sync a second ++ window to show the selected directory's contents, like windows' ++ explorer? (I must admit, I haven't been searching much). ++ ++ Then there's a lot of people complaining about the stupidity of ++ online help in win95: partly I agree, I don't ever look at it ++ either *because I already know the system*. ++ I wish there was the same level of online help in *n*x, telling ++ nothing more than the lowest basics for newbies like me, to be ++ used only until I know the system. There are man pages, texinfo files, linuxdocs, Sunbooks, etc. Abigail ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.icl.net!btnet-feed2!btnet!carbon.eu.sun.com!uk-usenet.uk.sun.com!paddington!richardt From: R!ch Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 07:49:58 +0000 Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: paddington.uk.sun.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: richardt@paddington To: Sergej Roytman In-Reply-To: <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> On 22 Mar 1998, Sergej Roytman wrote: > I've seen a product called Softwindows (or something like) on some of > my company's SGIs. It's a 95 emulator, and comes with many of the > standard apps. I've played with it a little, and have gotten it to > run other, random programs compiled for 8x86, so I guess it emulates > your Intel box from the ground up. That's right: SoftWIndoze emulates the peecee hardware, not '95. A real copy of Winduhs runs in the emulation. -- R!ch (Email is flakey at present: use richardt@keaton.uk.sun.com) (Who worked on the CPU of SoftWindows 2 for a while) If it ain't analogue, it ain't music. #include \\|// - ? (o o) /==================================oOOo=(_)=oOOo========\ | Richard Teer richard.teer@uk.sun.com | | | | | | WWW: www.rkdltd.demon.co.uk | | .oooO | | ( ) Oooo. | \===================================\ (==( )==========/ \_) ) / (_/ ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.clark.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 23 Mar 1998 13:28:09 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 17 Message-ID: <6f5o19$6v2$1@news3.tufts.edu> References: <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> <1998Mar22.134207.24019@lorelei.approve.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890659689 7138 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Goran Larsson (hoh@approve.se.NO_JUNK_EMAIL) wrote: : In article , : Tim Bradshaw wrote: : > but as soon as you start needing to talk to people who run Windows : > & think it's fine to ship you Word-format MIME attachments you lose. : No. They lose. If they feel they have anything valuable to say, then : it's their problem if they lock themselves into a proprietary format. You must work in a vacuum. in many cases, you won't be in a position to or even able to get these people to change. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com "The claim that 'They laughed at Columbus' is tempered by the fact that they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." --NCAHF newsletter ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.clark.net!208.134.240.140!newsfeed.internetmci.com!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 23 Mar 1998 13:34:35 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 30 Message-ID: <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> References: <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890660075 7138 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Abigail (abigail@fnx.com) wrote: : Luc Van der Veken (lucvdv@null.net) wrote on MDCLXIV September MCMXCIII : in : [snip] : ++ There's a gui, alright, but is it user friendly? : ++ With scroll bars that behave differently in just about every : ++ other program, just to take an example? : And why not? Different programs, different needs. Oh, get off it! How many programs really have a need to scroll differently? What MS does (usually) provide is a decent standard that can be followed (including proportional scrollbars)-- : ++ What I miss the most is that possibility when the system asks you : In UNIX, the system never asks you for a filename. An application might. --but in Windows, 95% of the programs will ask you for a filename in the very same way, because the "system" provides that, and any program that needs something different still follows something closely resembling the standard. You learn it once, you've learned for a wide range of apps. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com "The claim that 'They laughed at Columbus' is tempered by the fact that they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." --NCAHF newsletter ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed1.news.luth.se!luth.se!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!news.idt.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: aax@ix.netcom.com(ANDREW GRYGUS ) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 23 Mar 1998 16:10:00 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 22 Message-ID: <6f61go$eo9@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> References: <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> <1998Mar22.134207.24019@lorelei.approve.se> <6f5o19$6v2$1@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pas-ca12-13.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Mar 23 8:10:00 AM PST 1998 In <6f5o19$6v2$1@news3.tufts.edu> kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) writes: > >: > but as soon as you start needing to talk to people who run Windows >: > & think it's fine to ship you Word-format MIME attachments you lose. > >: No. They lose. If they feel they have anything valuable to say, then >: it's their problem if they lock themselves into a proprietary format. > >You must work in a vacuum. in many cases, you won't be in a position to >or even able to get these people to change. With most Windows users, the problem is: they may be willing to change, but haven't the foggiest idea >>how<< to change. Andrew Grygus - California Republic ------------------------------------- Resist Microsoft! ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!ubnnews.unisource.ch!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newspeer.monmouth.com!agate!islay.ssl.berkeley.edu!korpela From: korpela@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 23 Mar 1998 17:01:58 GMT Organization: Cal Berkeley-- Space Sciences Lab Lines: 33 Message-ID: <6f64i6$69e$1@agate.berkeley.edu> References: <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: islay.ssl.berkeley.edu In article <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be>, Luc Van der Veken wrote: >This must be the 100th time that I read that "intuitive" argument >about logging out. >If you know a more intuitive way to do it, please tell us. How about an options on the root menu or toolbar labled "Exit" and "Restart"? And if that's not intuitive enough you can always modify the window manager settings to something that is intuitive. >In the mean time, don't look at "Start" as "start a program", but >as a central place where you start doing something (no matter >what). Contrary to unix, win95's UI isn't program oriented, it's >task oriented - you don't have to know what exact app is doing >any job. Or call it object oriented: you can start an app by >starting the "document" (read data file) it's supposed to work >with, without knowing which app that is. And every time you install a program capable of loading an image, it sets itself up as the default program for loading all image formats. Web browsers ask you every time if you want to make them the default browser. And I especially loved it when MS decided a user readable text file wasn't a "user-friendly" enough place to put settings and gave us that god-awful registry. Of course everyone knows that the settings for MS-Word should be under the label "08-4B-3N:PPWdMd". Eric -- Eric Korpela | An object at rest can never be korpela@ssl.berkeley.edu | stopped. Click for home page. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.idt.net!psinntp!pubxfer.news.psi.net!abigail From: abigail@fnx.com (Abigail) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 23 Mar 1998 17:13:17 GMT Organization: FNX Ltd, Intelligent Risk Management Lines: 42 Message-ID: <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> References: <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> Reply-To: abigail@fnx.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.220.93.3 X-Date: MDCLXV September MCMXCIII X-HTTP: http://cthulhu.mandrake.net/%7Eabigail/ X-Revision: $Revision: 1.2 $ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 76 2E 82 7A 69 93 5F 97 AE 01 80 75 67 F3 45 D0 X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.3.2 UNIX) Kirk Is (kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu) wrote on MDCLXV September MCMXCIII in : ++ Abigail (abigail@fnx.com) wrote: ++ : Luc Van der Veken (lucvdv@null.net) wrote on MDCLXIV September MCMXCIII ++ : in : ++ [snip] ++ ++ : ++ There's a gui, alright, but is it user friendly? ++ : ++ With scroll bars that behave differently in just about every ++ : ++ other program, just to take an example? ++ ++ : And why not? Different programs, different needs. ++ ++ Oh, get off it! How many programs really have a need to scroll ++ differently? What MS does (usually) provide is a decent standard that can ++ be followed (including proportional scrollbars)-- Which makes me wonder, how difficult are scrollbars that people get confused if not every scrollbar is the same? (What happens if people are suddenly confronted with a horizontal scrollbar (assuming windows has one)? They get a 2 day class on its usuage?) ++ : ++ What I miss the most is that possibility when the system asks you ++ ++ : In UNIX, the system never asks you for a filename. An application might. ++ ++ --but in Windows, 95% of the programs will ask you for a filename in the ++ very same way, because the "system" provides that, and any program that ++ needs something different still follows something closely resembling the ++ standard. You learn it once, you've learned for a wide range of apps. You mean in Unix more than 5% of the programs take filenames other than from the command line? Please name them. Abigail ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 23 Mar 1998 18:03:40 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 11 Message-ID: <6f685s$c9l$1@news3.tufts.edu> References: <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> <1998Mar22.134207.24019@lorelei.approve.se> <6f5o19$6v2$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f61go$eo9@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890676220 12597 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] ANDREW GRYGUS (aax@ix.netcom.com) wrote: : With most Windows users, the problem is: they may be willing to change, : but haven't the foggiest idea >>how<< to change. Yes, and this would be a problem when ANY operating system started to come into general usage by a large non-techie population. You're arguing against novice users in general in this case. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com "my henry to your june" --untested intellectual pickup line ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 23 Mar 1998 18:15:17 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 49 Message-ID: <6f68rl$c9l$2@news3.tufts.edu> References: <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890676917 12597 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Abigail (abigail@fnx.com) wrote: : Kirk Is (kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu) wrote on MDCLXV September MCMXCIII : ++ Oh, get off it! How many programs really have a need to scroll : ++ differently? What MS does (usually) provide is a decent standard that can : ++ be followed (including proportional scrollbars)-- : Which makes me wonder, how difficult are scrollbars that people get : confused if not every scrollbar is the same? To be honest, it wasn't my statement that 'every other unix program has a slightly different scrollbar' but given my experience with the Huge variety of unix GUI standards and crappy interfaces, I wouldn't be surprised-- : (What happens if people are suddenly confronted with a horizontal : scrollbar (assuming windows has one)? They get a 2 day class on : its usuage?) --no goofball, it works JUST LIKE YOU EXPECT IT TO, i.e. click on an arrow for a small shift, click to the side of the little widget for a larger jump, or grab onto the widget for a drag. And Windows' Horizontal Scrollbar looks (reasuringly) just like the vertical one (save for the orientation) in every program that uses a horizontal scrollbar. : ++ --but in Windows, 95% of the programs will ask you for a filename in the : ++ very same way, because the "system" provides that, and any program that : ++ needs something different still follows something closely resembling the : ++ standard. You learn it once, you've learned for a wide range of apps. : You mean in Unix more than 5% of the programs take filenames other : than from the command line? : Please name them. Are you SERIOUS? Ever heard of Emacs? And that's a biggie. I imagine most editors for Unix (text, image, or otherwise!) allow you to open a local file for editing, as do all software browsers. Of course, you could start a new instance from a command line with the file name there if you wanted to (either in a DOS window, or from the "Run program" dialog, or by making a shortcut) but believe or not, I sometimes want to open up a file in a program that's already running. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com "my henry to your june" --untested intellectual pickup line ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed1.news.luth.se!luth.se!masternews.telia.net!mn6.swip.net!seunet!mn4.swip.net!lorelei!not-for-mail From: hoh@approve.se.NO_JUNK_EMAIL (Goran Larsson) Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Message-ID: <1998Mar23.185114.5081@lorelei.approve.se> Originator: hoh@approve.se.NO_JUNK_EMAIL (Goran Larsson) Sender: hoh@lorelei.approve.se.NO_JUNK_EMAIL (Goran Larsson) Organization: [1] + 5934 done /bin/rm -rf ~/ & X-No-Archive: yes X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test62 (21 February 1998) References: <1998Mar22.134207.24019@lorelei.approve.se> <6f5o19$6v2$1@news3.tufts.edu> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 18:51:14 GMT Lines: 21 In article <6f5o19$6v2$1@news3.tufts.edu>, Kirk Is wrote: > Goran Larsson (hoh@approve.se.NO_JUNK_EMAIL) wrote: > : No. They lose. If they feel they have anything valuable to say, then > : it's their problem if they lock themselves into a proprietary format. > You must work in a vacuum. My experience is that they are the ones workin in a vacuum. They seem to be absolutely unaware of any world outside of the cosy environment created for them by MS. > in many cases, you won't be in a position to > or even able to get these people to change. Then it's their loss, not mine. -- Goran Larsson hoh AT approve DOT se I was an atheist, http://home1 DOT swipnet DOT se/%7Ew-12153/ until I found out I was God. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 23 Mar 1998 19:31:44 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 43 Message-ID: <6f6db0$6qm$1@news3.tufts.edu> References: <1998Mar22.134207.24019@lorelei.approve.se> <6f5o19$6v2$1@news3.tufts.edu> <1998Mar23.185114.5081@lorelei.approve.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890681504 6998 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Goran Larsson (hoh@approve.se.NO_JUNK_EMAIL) wrote: : In article <6f5o19$6v2$1@news3.tufts.edu>, : Kirk Is wrote: : > Goran Larsson (hoh@approve.se.NO_JUNK_EMAIL) wrote: : > : No. They lose. If they feel they have anything valuable to say, then : > : it's their problem if they lock themselves into a proprietary format. : > You must work in a vacuum. : My experience is that they are the ones workin in a vacuum. They : seem to be absolutely unaware of any world outside of the cosy : environment created for them by MS. Yes. That's where they are. They aren't very interested in technology for its own sake or for its elegance of design or even ease of use, they just want an easy to learn tool to do a job. MS are the tools handed to them, that make a cozy environment, that form a defacto standard for office life. It's a standard they like. They like it better than your standard, namely straight text, because it lets them keep formatting and fonts and all that other niceness. To make it worse, they might not be aware that your standard exists, or how to get from their standard to your standard. Now what are you going to do about it? Just ignore them if they won't or can't change their ways? : > in many cases, you won't be in a position to : > or even able to get these people to change. : Then it's their loss, not mine. As the one who has a techinal clue in this situation, the burden will be on you to turn them from the dark side. And some of these people might likely be in authority over you-- business execs aren't always the most tech saavy folk. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com There are no "facts"-- there is only *the fact* that man, every man everywhere in the world, is on his way to ordination. Some men take the long route and some take the short route. Every man is working out his own way and nobody can be of help except by being kind, generous, and patient. --Henry Miller, _Tropic of Capricorn_ ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!158.43.192.17!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:48:33 GMT Organization: . Lines: 65 Message-ID: <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> References: <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02a-194-7-46-101.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes abigail@fnx.com (Abigail) told us > Kirk Is (kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu) wrote on MDCLXV September MCMXCIII > ++ Oh, get off it! How many programs really have a need to scroll > ++ differently? What MS does (usually) provide is a decent standard that can > ++ be followed (including proportional scrollbars)-- > > Which makes me wonder, how difficult are scrollbars that people get > confused if not every scrollbar is the same? Not so much confused, as agitated because a click on a scrollbar takes them in exactly the opposite direction or at an entirely different distance than what they expected. MS doesn't always make the same thing act in the same way too, but X windows programs don't even *try* - which is not a big problem if you're working in the same app all the time, but becomes a nightmare if you switch from one program to another a lot. > (What happens if people are suddenly confronted with a horizontal > scrollbar (assuming windows has one)? They get a 2 day class on > its usuage?) This thing about "assuming" gives it away: you never saw a windo[ws|ze] PC from any closer than 20 feet. Please state explicitly in the future (like I did about CDE), or better: only discuss things you know. You may take me for an MS advocate: I don't consider myself one - there are enough reasons not to be one. But, following the title of this thread, I tried to point out a couple of things where I find they *are* better, after having double-booted win95 with Linux for some time. BTW, there are more aspects where I find MS better or easier to use, I just named a couple. The reactions it generates are just the ones I expected: a fair share not coming from unix or mac advocates, but from anti-MS advocates who believe it must be worthless just because it has "MS" stamped on it, without ever having taken a good look at what they are talking about (because they don't *want* to see it). > ++ : ++ What I miss the most is that possibility when the system asks you > ++ > ++ : In UNIX, the system never asks you for a filename. An application might. > ++ > ++ --but in Windows, 95% of the programs will ask you for a filename in the > ++ very same way, because the "system" provides that, and any program that > ++ needs something different still follows something closely resembling the > ++ standard. You learn it once, you've learned for a wide range of apps. > > > You mean in Unix more than 5% of the programs take filenames other > than from the command line? > > Please name them. Stop kidding. Even at only 5% I'd get flamed for wasting bandwidth listing them. But I'll try: something like most that have an 'x' as first character of their name (as far as they /take/ filenames), plus a couple of others? ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!newsfeed.internetmci.com!158.43.192.17!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:48:35 GMT Organization: . Lines: 57 Message-ID: <351abdda.8383513@news.innet.be> References: <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02a-194-7-46-101.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes abigail@fnx.com (Abigail) told us > Luc Van der Veken (lucvdv@null.net) wrote on MDCLXIV September MCMXCIII > in : > ++ Then there's a lot of people complaining about the stupidity of > ++ online help in win95: partly I agree, I don't ever look at it > ++ either *because I already know the system*. > ++ I wish there was the same level of online help in *n*x, telling > ++ nothing more than the lowest basics for newbies like me, to be > ++ used only until I know the system. > > There are man pages, texinfo files, linuxdocs, Sunbooks, etc. Exactly what I mean. In the MS world, you can compare those to the contents of an MSDN CD: a huge pile of documentation where you'll find what you are looking for, alphabetically sorted in subgroups (books) per topic, in MS's case even delivered with a good search engine. If you're very lucky, you'll even find what you need in less than an hour. Part of the time though, it will be exactly where you *least* expect it, if the author didn't find it so obvious that he didn't document it at all. It's just those obvious (not for newbies) things that you find first in MS's online help, however bad it may be for the rest. If you don't need that anymore, you skip to the 'heavier' docs (where the authors expect you to be familiar with the basic online help). Unix docs are near perfect if you want to use a command or a program, and want to refresh your memory about its details: they beat MS by lengths there. If you want to do something, but don't know what command or app to do it with (or you forgot, and all you remember is that it can be done), you're on your own. Some years ago, I tried out Coherent to get a feel of what unix is like. It had more limitations than power, but it did have one thing: a good introduction to unix(-clones), its shells and its commands. If I hadn't read that then, maybe I'd still not know that ln can be used to create a link, and just maybe I'd be copying files and updating them in sixfold instead. It's possible that an introduction like this exists somewhere on a default Linux installation too, but if it does, I still haven't found it in that large pile of doc files. BTW, I do know about HOWTO's - and I agree that they prove that Linux docs aren't all newbie-unfriendly (and in some specific cases better than MS). And of course, my main problem is that I just got a new ferrari, don't have a drivers licence yet, but I'd like to race my car around a F1 circuit tomorrow, in a manner of speach :-) ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:48:37 GMT Organization: . Lines: 48 Message-ID: <3519b642.6438789@news.innet.be> References: <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f64i6$69e$1@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02a-194-7-46-101.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes korpela@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) told us > And every time you install a program capable of loading an image, > it sets itself up as the default program for loading all image formats. Well, I didn't say the sun always shines :-/ Well-behaved programs don't, and after enough complaining all or most of the new ones seem to be (becoming) just that. > Web browsers ask you every time if you want to make them the default > browser. Unless you read what it says, notice the box "don't ask this again" and check it (well, there's something like that in IE, I don't know about netscape because I only use its Linux version). > And I especially loved it when MS decided a user readable > text file wasn't a "user-friendly" enough place to put settings and gave > us that god-awful registry. It's not ideal (softly stated), but at least it keeps all settings in one central place. Imo using a text file this way would slow things down too much (it's easier to delete a setting and re-add it at the end, than to shift 873683 lines to adjust for a change in length), and it keeps moron's fingers out of the settings. If you can't find it, you shouldn't change it. And, still imo, it beats a full directory of small config files (but not in all aspects: in a fucked up registry file, *everything* may be fucked up). > Of course everyone knows that the settings > for MS-Word should be under the label "08-4B-3N:PPWdMd". Actually, it's HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Office\8.0\Word (which makes it look like the registry is a directory tree full of config files, doesn't it?), and by the time you know enough of the system to find that, it usually won't hurt much to change something because you probably already know what you're doing. The format you meant is something like HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\CLSID\{00000300-0000-0000-C000-000000000046}, and if you don't know what the series of hex digits stand for, you better keep your fingers off - which is probably one of the reasons why they got such a cryptic name ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:48:39 GMT Organization: . Lines: 34 Message-ID: <351cc2cb.9648844@news.innet.be> References: <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02a-194-7-46-101.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes R!ch told us > On 22 Mar 1998, Sergej Roytman wrote: > > > I've seen a product called Softwindows (or something like) on some of > > my company's SGIs. It's a 95 emulator, and comes with many of the > > standard apps. I've played with it a little, and have gotten it to > > run other, random programs compiled for 8x86, so I guess it emulates > > your Intel box from the ground up. > > That's right: SoftWIndoze emulates the peecee hardware, not '95. A > real copy of Winduhs runs in the emulation. And Wine even emulates '95 in a limited way, and without that real copy of win. Not everything runs, and if you want speed you'd better boot the real Windoze, though. Rebooting won't take much longer than starting X + wine, btw. I tried out Freecell: it's playable, if you set the options to "fast play (no animation)". This may all sound a bit negative, but actually I think it's a magnificent piece. I just hope they get more programs to work. > -- > If it ain't analogue, it ain't music. Can I make you happy with some old cassette tapes from a TRS-80 model I or a Commodore 64? I can't even remember - was that Kansas City Standard, or did they use their own thing? ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!psinntp!pubxfer.news.psi.net!abigail From: abigail@fnx.com (Abigail) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 23 Mar 1998 23:29:27 GMT Organization: FNX Ltd, Intelligent Risk Management Lines: 58 Message-ID: <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> References: <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> Reply-To: abigail@fnx.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.220.93.3 X-Date: MDCLXV September MCMXCIII X-HTTP: http://cthulhu.mandrake.net/%7Eabigail/ X-Revision: $Revision: 1.2 $ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 76 2E 82 7A 69 93 5F 97 AE 01 80 75 67 F3 45 D0 X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.3.2 UNIX) Luc Van der Veken (lucvdv@null.net) wrote on MDCLXV September MCMXCIII in : ++ abigail@fnx.com (Abigail) told us ++ ++ > Kirk Is (kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu) wrote on MDCLXV September MCMXCIII ++ ++ > ++ Oh, get off it! How many programs really have a need to scroll ++ > ++ differently? What MS does (usually) provide is a decent standard that can ++ > ++ be followed (including proportional scrollbars)-- ++ > ++ > Which makes me wonder, how difficult are scrollbars that people get ++ > confused if not every scrollbar is the same? ++ ++ Not so much confused, as agitated because a click on a scrollbar ++ takes them in exactly the opposite direction or at an entirely ++ different distance than what they expected. Going into a different direction than I expected only happened to me once; recently, when I working on an NT machine. I've never seen an application on a UNIX machine where the scroll bar took me into a different direction than I expected. ++ > (What happens if people are suddenly confronted with a horizontal ++ > scrollbar (assuming windows has one)? They get a 2 day class on ++ > its usuage?) ++ ++ This thing about "assuming" gives it away: you never saw a ++ windo[ws|ze] PC from any closer than 20 feet. Please state ++ explicitly in the future (like I did about CDE), or better: only ++ discuss things you know. You see the question marks? It's a *question*, not a statement. ;) ++ > You mean in Unix more than 5% of the programs take filenames other ++ > than from the command line? ++ > ++ > Please name them. ++ ++ Stop kidding. Even at only 5% I'd get flamed for wasting ++ bandwidth listing them. ++ ++ But I'll try: something like most that have an 'x' as first ++ character of their name (as far as they /take/ filenames), plus a ++ couple of others? Hmmm, I've 92 programs that start with an x. Most of them either don't take any files (doesn't make much sense for xload or xeyes), of follow the convention programname [options] filename. 3 expections: xbiff and xmh, if they take a file other than the default, it's given as one of the options. The other exception is x-povray, a free raytraced program which runs on both Unix, DOS and Windows. Abigail ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!psinntp!pubxfer.news.psi.net!abigail From: abigail@fnx.com (Abigail) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 23 Mar 1998 23:32:40 GMT Organization: FNX Ltd, Intelligent Risk Management Lines: 20 Message-ID: <6f6reo$g7q$2@client3.news.psi.net> References: <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f64i6$69e$1@agate.berkeley.edu> Reply-To: abigail@fnx.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.220.93.3 X-Date: MDCLXV September MCMXCIII X-HTTP: http://cthulhu.mandrake.net/%7Eabigail/ X-Revision: $Revision: 1.2 $ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 76 2E 82 7A 69 93 5F 97 AE 01 80 75 67 F3 45 D0 X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.3.2 UNIX) Eric J. Korpela (korpela@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu) wrote on MDCLXV September MCMXCIII in : ++ In article <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be>, ++ Luc Van der Veken wrote: ++ >This must be the 100th time that I read that "intuitive" argument ++ >about logging out. ++ >If you know a more intuitive way to do it, please tell us. ++ ++ How about an options on the root menu or toolbar labled ++ "Exit" and "Restart"? And if that's not intuitive enough you ++ can always modify the window manager settings to something that ++ is intuitive. Who wants to work on a system where the restart/reboot/shutdown/ whatever buttons have to have a prominent place on the screen? I want actions availble that I use often - and restarting shouldn't be one of them. Abigail ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 23 Mar 1998 23:55:41 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 18 Message-ID: <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> References: <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890697341 7849 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Abigail (abigail@fnx.com) wrote: : Hmmm, I've 92 programs that start with an x. Most of them either : don't take any files (doesn't make much sense for xload or xeyes), : of follow the convention programname [options] filename. : 3 expections: xbiff and xmh, if they take a file other than the : default, it's given as one of the options. The other exception is : x-povray, a free raytraced program which runs on both Unix, DOS : and Windows. I'm still surprised that you don't use more standard editors that can open up a file without starting up an entire copy of the executable. I guess if cat > a.out was good enough for grandpa, it's good enough for you. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com "When your phone don't ring, it'll be me." --George Jones ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.mcgill.ca!cs.mcgill.ca!raphael From: Louis RAPHAEL Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 24 Mar 1998 02:23:25 GMT Organization: Societe pour la promotion du petoncle vert Lines: 20 Message-ID: <6f75et$87e@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca> References: <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: willy.cs.mcgill.ca User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971127 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m)) Abigail wrote: : Which makes me wonder, how difficult are scrollbars that people get : confused if not every scrollbar is the same? : (What happens if people are suddenly confronted with a horizontal : scrollbar (assuming windows has one)? They get a 2 day class on : its usuage?) And, BTW, who had the idea of horizontal scroll-bars? In win95-style apps, they're used excessively, and they're just about the stupidest thing I've ever seen. The only times I see them in X is when they're absolutely necessary. To think that I would want to horiz-scroll through an email is an idiocy that would only be designed by those that can afford 17" monitors, if you ask me... And yes, there's probably a two day class on usage... heck, *I've* never understood it! :-) Louis ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!psinntp!pubxfer.news.psi.net!abigail From: abigail@fnx.com (Abigail) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 24 Mar 1998 03:33:45 GMT Organization: FNX Ltd, Intelligent Risk Management Lines: 26 Message-ID: <6f79ip$j6v$2@client3.news.psi.net> References: <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> Reply-To: abigail@fnx.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.220.93.3 X-Date: MDCLXVI September MCMXCIII X-HTTP: http://cthulhu.mandrake.net/%7Eabigail/ X-Revision: $Revision: 1.2 $ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 76 2E 82 7A 69 93 5F 97 AE 01 80 75 67 F3 45 D0 X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.3.2 UNIX) Kirk Is (kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu) wrote on MDCLXV September MCMXCIII in : ++ Abigail (abigail@fnx.com) wrote: ++ : Hmmm, I've 92 programs that start with an x. Most of them either ++ : don't take any files (doesn't make much sense for xload or xeyes), ++ : of follow the convention programname [options] filename. ++ ++ : 3 expections: xbiff and xmh, if they take a file other than the ++ : default, it's given as one of the options. The other exception is ++ : x-povray, a free raytraced program which runs on both Unix, DOS ++ : and Windows. ++ ++ I'm still surprised that you don't use more standard editors that ++ can open up a file without starting up an entire copy of the executable. ++ I guess if cat > a.out was good enough for grandpa, it's good enough for ++ you. "standard editors"? If there's anything that shouldn't be standardized, it's editors. There's no point in having 145 editors that are all the same, except for the name. The only reason that there are different editors is that people have different preferences. Abigail ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed.nntp.acc.ca!News.Toronto.iSTAR.net!news.istar.net!news3.bellglobal.com!news1.bellglobal.com!dragon.sk.sympatico.ca!mongol.sasknet.sk.ca!news.uregina.ca!not-for-mail From: bayko@borealis.cs.uregina.ca (John Bayko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 24 Mar 1998 05:16:38 GMT Organization: University of Regina, Dept. of Computer Science Lines: 31 Message-ID: <6f7fjm$qqa$1@sue.cc.uregina.ca> References: <1d5qzto.18z0t9a8aj9mwN@n227h094.berlin.snafu.de> <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: borealis.cs.uregina.ca In article <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl>, Mike Schenk wrote: [...] >There is competition in OSs. Any system that runs NT or WIN95 could just >as well run at least Linux or OS2. So there must be another reason >people stick with MS OSs other than "there is no alternative" cause >there is. There may be alternatives, but they are unavailable to the vast majority of purchasers - very close to 100% of all PCs sold to individuals come with Windows95 pre-installed. Not many more people are willing to replace their OS as are willing to replace the engine in their car (despite the fact that it can't go uphill and stalls whenever crossing train tracks, everyone else's car does the same thing so it doesn't look like there's any hope of change or else, hey, they'd have changed already, right?). It's that simple. > After all, when one buys an HP or SUN workstation there isn't >much alternative for OSs either (in fact less than for an Intel based >PC). This is true too, for the most part, but the OS tends to be good enough that an alternative isn't needed. Still, there's always research OSs - Plan 9, Spring, and Linux are all available for Suns, I believe (but don't quote me on that). -- John Bayko (Tau). bayko@cs.uregina.ca http://www.cs.uregina.ca/~bayko ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.wli.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!diablo.theplanet.net!btnet-feed2!btnet!carbon.eu.sun.com!uk-usenet.uk.sun.com!paddington!richardt From: R!ch Teer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 07:49:04 +0000 Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f79ip$j6v$2@client3.news.psi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: paddington.uk.sun.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: richardt@paddington In-Reply-To: <6f79ip$j6v$2@client3.news.psi.net> On 24 Mar 1998, Abigail wrote: > "standard editors"? If there's anything that shouldn't be standardized, > it's editors. There's no point in having 145 editors that are all the > same, except for the name. More to the point, how many people leave their editor idling, so that they can load the next file? I personally find typing "vi foo.c" a bit easier than ":e foo.c", as I have enough windows open on my screen already so I don't want to waste one with just an editor. (Yeah, I know I can iconise them - but I tend not to.) And why you'd want to take your hands away from the keyboard to play with the mouse "Ok, take your hands from the home keys, stick them on the mouse. Now go to the menu bar (that's the line of text at the top of the window), and click where it says File. See the menu that drops down? Now click where it says open, and a box will pop up, eventually. Now you have to select the drive your data is on (cos some bozo made a wrong decision years ago), and the file name. Scroll through the list of files, and click on the one you want, and press the OK button. Now wait for the hour glass to go... There, your file's loaded! So much easier than that hard to use UNIX thing where you have to say (in vi), ":e filename"." -- R!ch Teer (Email is flakey at present: use richardt@keaton.uk.sun.com) If it ain't analogue, it ain't music. #include WWW: www.rkdltd.demon.co.uk ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!inet16.us.oracle.com!not-for-mail From: "Bill B." Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:33:30 -0800 Organization: Trying, but not quite Lines: 11 Message-ID: <3518189A.2781@us.oracle.com> References: <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f79ip$j6v$2@client3.news.psi.net> <6f8dpp$sg7$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f8uof$smd$13@client3.news.psi.net> <6f90p4$p88$3@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: upsizeme.us.oracle.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; AIX 2) Kirk Is wrote: > > Abigail (abigail@fnx.com) wrote: > > : No, I don't use emacs. Because I don't like its command names. I hate > : all the control-meta-alt key combinations. I wouldn't be at all happy > : with the emacs way as the standard way of switching buffers. The "emacs" acronym stands for Escape-Meta-Alt-Control-Shift and is just about as cumbersome until you get the .emacs (dot-emacs) control file all set up to your liking... ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news.rdc1.sfba.home.net!cypher.cagent.com!user From: tsw@cagent.com (Tom Watson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:43:01 -0800 Organization: CagEnt, Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f8rut$8cc@newsfeeds.rpi.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: alfred.cagent.com Cache-Post-Path: alfred.cagent.com!unknown@cypher.cagent.com In article <6f8rut$8cc@newsfeeds.rpi.edu>, coonec@rpi.edu (Christopher Michael Cooney) wrote: > Kirk Is (kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu) wrote: > : > : I'm still surprised that you don't use more standard editors that > : can open up a file without starting up an entire copy of the executable. > : I guess if cat > a.out was good enough for grandpa, it's good enough for > : you. > : > > Yes, vi takes _so_long_ to start up. > Perhaps you're just used to an environment where the 'standard' editor > is word. > He was probably used to 'EDLIN'. On modern machines, I suspect it starts up VERY quickly. Not very useful, but it starts up quickly. Came with every release of MS-DOS for quite a while. -- tsw@cagent.com (Home: tsw@johana.com) Please forward spam to: annagram@hr.house.gov (my Congressman), I do. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 24 Mar 1998 13:51:53 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 24 Message-ID: <6f8dpp$sg7$1@news3.tufts.edu> References: <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f79ip$j6v$2@client3.news.psi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890747513 29191 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Abigail (abigail@fnx.com) wrote: : Kirk Is (kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu) wrote on MDCLXV September MCMXCIII : in : : ++ I'm still surprised that you don't use more standard editors that : ++ can open up a file without starting up an entire copy of the executable. : ++ I guess if cat > a.out was good enough for grandpa, it's good enough for : ++ you. : "standard editors"? If there's anything that shouldn't be standardized, : it's editors. There's no point in having 145 editors that are all the : same, except for the name. Your ignoring my point. Replace "standard" with "any" in that statement. You don't use any editors that can open up a file? Never did a ctrl-x ctrl-f in emacs? Started up that huge lisp-parsing behemoth anew each time you need to edit something? : The only reason that there are different editors is that people have : different preferences. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com "I'd believe only in a god who understood how to dance" --Henry & June ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 24 Mar 1998 14:05:04 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 53 Message-ID: <6f8eig$sg7$2@news3.tufts.edu> References: <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f79ip$j6v$2@client3.news.psi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890748304 29191 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] R!ch Teer (richardt@uk.sun.com) wrote: : On 24 Mar 1998, Abigail wrote: : > "standard editors"? If there's anything that shouldn't be standardized, : > it's editors. There's no point in having 145 editors that are all the : > same, except for the name. : More to the point, how many people leave their editor idling, so that : they can load the next file? I personally find typing "vi foo.c" a I prefer more recent editors, such as emacs on unix and programmer's file editor on Windows, that take a noticeable time to load. If you're happy with vi's modal system, more power to you. [snip] : I can iconise them - but I tend not to.) And why you'd want to take your : hands away from the keyboard to play with the mouse "Ok, take your hands Ah, but Windows has some of the best all-keyboard support out there. : from the home keys, stick them on the mouse. Now go to the menu bar (that's : the line of text at the top of the window), and click where it says File. : See the menu that drops down? Now click where it says open, and a box : will pop up, eventually. Now you have to select the drive your data is : on (cos some bozo made a wrong decision years ago), and the file name. : Scroll through the list of files, and click on the one you want, and press : the OK button. Now wait for the hour glass to go... There, your file's : loaded! So much easier than that hard to use UNIX thing where you have : to say (in vi), ":e filename"." "ctrl-o filename", almost every text editor out there for Windows. or better yet, "alt-f o filename", again damn near universal. Pretty easy and my fingers never left the keyboard and it's very rare for me to have to relearn that if I happen to be in a different editor. There is the funky placement of the ctrl key on my keyboard, but that's not really microsoft's fault. (Just pressing alt and then using the arrow keys or menu accelerators is somewhat akin to going into command mode in vi, except I get to see all the commands visually, including a reminder of all the ctrl-s saves and ctrl-v paste shortcuts that the program has-- Plus-- Ctrl-X cuts Ctrl-C copies Ctrl-V pastes in and out of almost every modern piece of windows software, converting formats on the fly, and I already know what keys to press.) -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com "I'd believe only in a god who understood how to dance" --Henry & June ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.mcgill.ca!cs.mcgill.ca!raphael From: Louis RAPHAEL Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 24 Mar 1998 15:09:20 GMT Organization: Societe pour la promotion du petoncle vert Lines: 9 Message-ID: <6f8ib0$q5k@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca> References: <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f79ip$j6v$2@client3.news.psi.net> <6f8eig$sg7$2@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: willy.cs.mcgill.ca User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971127 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m)) Kirk Is wrote: : I prefer more recent editors, such as emacs on unix and programmer's file : editor on Windows, that take a noticeable time to load. If you're happy : with vi's modal system, more power to you. Yes, that's exactly the way it is. Louis ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!128.113.100.15!rpi!cortez.sss.rpi.edu!not-for-mail From: coonec@rpi.edu (Christopher Michael Cooney) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 24 Mar 1998 17:53:33 GMT Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA Lines: 17 Message-ID: <6f8rut$8cc@newsfeeds.rpi.edu> References: <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: cortez.sss.rpi.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Kirk Is (kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu) wrote: : : I'm still surprised that you don't use more standard editors that : can open up a file without starting up an entire copy of the executable. : I guess if cat > a.out was good enough for grandpa, it's good enough for : you. : Yes, vi takes _so_long_ to start up. Perhaps you're just used to an environment where the 'standard' editor is word. -- coonec@rpi.edu Comp. Science, Blah Blah Sparc MIPS Blah Walking through the basement of Fuller Labs wearing futuristic body armor and pushing a variable-geometry motorcycle raises eyebrows. Telling students that this is the true power of UNIX doesn't help. -UF ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!sibyl.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.idt.net!psinntp!pubxfer.news.psi.net!abigail From: abigail@fnx.com (Abigail) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 24 Mar 1998 18:32:12 GMT Organization: FNX Ltd, Intelligent Risk Management Lines: 18 Message-ID: <6f8u7c$smd$12@client3.news.psi.net> References: <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f79ip$j6v$2@client3.news.psi.net> <6f8eig$sg7$2@news3.tufts.edu> Reply-To: abigail@fnx.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.220.93.3 X-Date: MDCLXVI September MCMXCIII X-HTTP: http://cthulhu.mandrake.net/%7Eabigail/ X-Revision: $Revision: 1.2 $ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 76 2E 82 7A 69 93 5F 97 AE 01 80 75 67 F3 45 D0 X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.3.2 UNIX) Kirk Is (kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu) wrote on MDCLXVI September MCMXCIII in : ++ ++ (Just pressing alt and then using the arrow keys or menu accelerators is ++ somewhat akin to going into command mode in vi, except I get to see all ++ the commands visually, including a reminder of all the ctrl-s saves ++ and ctrl-v paste shortcuts that the program has-- Plus-- ++ Ctrl-X cuts Ctrl-C copies Ctrl-V pastes in and out of almost every ++ modern piece of windows software, converting formats on the fly, ++ and I already know what keys to press.) Uhm, you want to standardize everything, yet you still use *arrow* keys? They seem to be on a different place on every keyboard. At least an 'o' or an 'e' are on the same place on every keyboard. Abigail ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.idt.net!psinntp!pubxfer.news.psi.net!abigail From: abigail@fnx.com (Abigail) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 24 Mar 1998 18:41:19 GMT Organization: FNX Ltd, Intelligent Risk Management Lines: 29 Message-ID: <6f8uof$smd$13@client3.news.psi.net> References: <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f79ip$j6v$2@client3.news.psi.net> <6f8dpp$sg7$1@news3.tufts.edu> Reply-To: abigail@fnx.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.220.93.3 X-Date: MDCLXVI September MCMXCIII X-HTTP: http://cthulhu.mandrake.net/%7Eabigail/ X-Revision: $Revision: 1.2 $ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 76 2E 82 7A 69 93 5F 97 AE 01 80 75 67 F3 45 D0 X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.3.2 UNIX) Kirk Is (kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu) wrote on MDCLXVI September MCMXCIII in : ++ Abigail (abigail@fnx.com) wrote: ++ : Kirk Is (kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu) wrote on MDCLXV September MCMXCIII ++ : in : ++ : ++ I'm still surprised that you don't use more standard editors that ++ : ++ can open up a file without starting up an entire copy of the executable. ++ : ++ I guess if cat > a.out was good enough for grandpa, it's good enough for ++ : ++ you. ++ ++ : "standard editors"? If there's anything that shouldn't be standardized, ++ : it's editors. There's no point in having 145 editors that are all the ++ : same, except for the name. ++ ++ ++ Your ignoring my point. Replace "standard" with "any" in that statement. ++ ++ You don't use any editors that can open up a file? Never did ++ a ctrl-x ctrl-f in emacs? Started up that huge lisp-parsing ++ behemoth anew each time you need to edit something? No, I don't use emacs. Because I don't like its command names. I hate all the control-meta-alt key combinations. I wouldn't be at all happy with the emacs way as the standard way of switching buffers. Abigail ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed.wli.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news1.best.com!nntp2.ba.best.com!not-for-mail From: David E. Fox Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 19:09:15 -0800 Lines: 20 Message-ID: <98032419102300.09249@belvdere> References: <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f79ip$j6v$2@client3.news.psi.net> <6f8eig$sg7$2@news3.tufts.edu> <3519108a.8964053@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: belvdere.vip.best.com Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Trace: 890795509 8387 dfox 206.86.0.12 X-Newsreader: KRN http://ultra7.unl.edu.ar FollowupTo: alt.folklore.computers On Tue, 24 Mar 1998, Luc Van der Veken wrote: >kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) told us >BTW, does anyone know an editor like PFE that's easy to use and >powerful, but not so loaded with gadgets like emacs, and >preferably capable of running in character mode as well as under teco!!!!!11!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! : ) gd&r :) Seriously, give 'joe' a look see. You probably already have it in your /usr/bin directory. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ David E. Fox Tax Thanks for letting me dfox@belvdere.vip.best.com the change magnetic patterns root@belvedere.sbay.org churches on your hard disk. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.xcom.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 24 Mar 1998 19:10:12 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 20 Message-ID: <6f90ek$p88$1@news3.tufts.edu> References: <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f8rut$8cc@newsfeeds.rpi.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890766612 25864 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Christopher Michael Cooney (coonec@rpi.edu) wrote: : Kirk Is (kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu) wrote: : : : : I'm still surprised that you don't use more standard editors that : : can open up a file without starting up an entire copy of the executable. : : I guess if cat > a.out was good enough for grandpa, it's good enough for : : you. : : : Yes, vi takes _so_long_ to start up. : Perhaps you're just used to an environment where the 'standard' editor : is word. Well, my word for you is "emacs", aka "eight megs and constantly swapping" back when eight megs meant a lot. There's still a grating delay while that editor gets its act together. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com "The question is complex and life is short"--Protagoras on theism v. atheism ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 24 Mar 1998 19:12:20 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 15 Message-ID: <6f90ik$p88$2@news3.tufts.edu> References: <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f79ip$j6v$2@client3.news.psi.net> <6f8eig$sg7$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f8u7c$smd$12@client3.news.psi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890766740 25864 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Abigail (abigail@fnx.com) wrote: : Kirk Is (kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu) wrote on MDCLXVI September : Uhm, you want to standardize everything, yet you still use *arrow* keys? : They seem to be on a different place on every keyboard. At least an : 'o' or an 'e' are on the same place on every keyboard. Sorry to hear your unhappy when you use computers where they keep moving the arrow keys around. The 101-key-layout on PCs has been standardized for years (save for those new annoying 'microsoft' keys, and despite the silly capslock/ctrl switch) and my fingers know right where to go. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com "The question is complex and life is short"--Protagoras on theism v. atheism ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 24 Mar 1998 19:15:48 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 24 Message-ID: <6f90p4$p88$3@news3.tufts.edu> References: <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f79ip$j6v$2@client3.news.psi.net> <6f8dpp$sg7$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f8uof$smd$13@client3.news.psi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890766948 25864 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Abigail (abigail@fnx.com) wrote: : Kirk Is (kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu) wrote on MDCLXVI September : ++ : ++ You don't use any editors that can open up a file? Never did : ++ a ctrl-x ctrl-f in emacs? Started up that huge lisp-parsing : ++ behemoth anew each time you need to edit something? : No, I don't use emacs. Because I don't like its command names. I hate : all the control-meta-alt key combinations. I wouldn't be at all happy : with the emacs way as the standard way of switching buffers. Ok, but you have to admit it's not exactly a rarely used editor in the unix world. (I don't like it much either, but I find it better to use than most of the other universally installed alternatives.) Face it: many unix and x-window programs open up existing files, and the interfaces to do so are often not as standardized as they are in the Windows95 (or Mac, for that matter) world. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com "Jeez! Slow Down! You think apples grow on trees??" "Uh-" "Never mind!" ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 24 Mar 1998 21:14:17 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 22 Message-ID: <6f97n9$18e$1@news3.tufts.edu> References: <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f79ip$j6v$2@client3.news.psi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890774057 1294 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] John Hendrickx (J.Hendrickx@maw.kun.nl) wrote: : ctrl-o opens the open file dialog box, you can type [drive][path][name] : and hit enter if you want to. No problem, never was. You can also click : in the file area, then type the first letter or so, if you don't happen : to remember the filename (command line completion?). I have a nice little One thing I miss, though, is tab-completion of filenames. But it's very cool to be able to rename files in an intuitive way in that dialog. And I wish the 'Explorer' (not the two paned one, the one that opens up when you double click on a folder) had an option to bring back ".." as a folder item, since it would make keyboard only navigation *so* much easier. : add-on as well (file-ex), that automatically returns to the last used : folder, remembers recent files and folders. And if you see an hour glass : just to open a file, try defragmenting. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn" --Charlie Parker ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!192.87.106.104!surfnet.nl!barba.uci.kun.nl!not-for-mail From: J.Hendrickx@maw.kun.nl (John Hendrickx) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 21:59:17 +0100 Organization: University of Nijmegen Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f79ip$j6v$2@client3.news.psi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ib119.extern.kun.nl X-Newsreader: Anawave Gravity v2.00 In article , richardt@uk.sun.com says... > On 24 Mar 1998, Abigail wrote: > > More to the point, how many people leave their editor idling, so that > they can load the next file? I personally find typing "vi foo.c" a > bit easier than ":e foo.c", as I have enough windows open on my screen > already so I don't want to waste one with just an editor. (Yeah, I know > I can iconise them - but I tend not to.) And why you'd want to take your > hands away from the keyboard to play with the mouse "Ok, take your hands > from the home keys, stick them on the mouse. Now go to the menu bar (that's > the line of text at the top of the window), and click where it says File. > See the menu that drops down? Now click where it says open, and a box > will pop up, eventually. Now you have to select the drive your data is > on (cos some bozo made a wrong decision years ago), and the file name. > Scroll through the list of files, and click on the one you want, and press > the OK button. Now wait for the hour glass to go... There, your file's > loaded! So much easier than that hard to use UNIX thing where you have > to say (in vi), ":e filename"." > ?? ctrl-o opens the open file dialog box, you can type [drive][path][name] and hit enter if you want to. No problem, never was. You can also click in the file area, then type the first letter or so, if you don't happen to remember the filename (command line completion?). I have a nice little add-on as well (file-ex), that automatically returns to the last used folder, remembers recent files and folders. And if you see an hour glass just to open a file, try defragmenting. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 24 Mar 1998 22:09:39 GMT Message-ID: <6f9av3$f5t$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-050.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 29 On 1998-03-23 lucvdv@null.net(LucVanderVeken) said: :The reactions it generates are just the ones I expected: a fair :share not coming from unix or mac advocates, but from anti-MS :advocates who believe it must be worthless just because it has :"MS" stamped on it, without ever having taken a good look at what :they are talking about (because they don't *want* to see it). maybe, but plenty more of us have to use this shit every day at work, and are quite sick of being told that it's "absolutely wonderful!" (by it - why does an application we are already using have to plug itself?) or "better than you think" (by you, amongst others). perhaps you are the one speaking from ignorance? externally, win95 is a mess. internally, it's an even bigger mess. its effect on the software market as a whole is stultifying (except for the "alternative freeware" camps, which are doing rather well). and even if linux isn't quite as smooth - remember, it's being developed by people for nothing. win95 was developed by a multi-billion dollar multinational. the amazing thing is that there is so little to choose between them, and that linux is better is little short of astounding. it's no longer true that you get what you pay for in the software world. and microsoft software simply *isn't* any bloody good, whether you want to face it or not. it's all style and no substance. -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!colt.net!news.clara.net!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 24 Mar 1998 22:09:51 GMT Lines: 35 Message-ID: <6f9avf$f5t$3@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <3519b642.6438789@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-050.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X On 1998-03-23 lucvdv@null.net(LucVanderVeken) said: :The format you meant is something like :HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\CLSID\{00000300-0000-0000-C000-000000000046}, :and if you don't know what the series of hex digits stand for, :you better keep your fingers off - which is probably one of the :reasons why they got such a cryptic name oh ha ha. try giggling over that one after you have to update the bloody things every time you want to test the activex control you've just recompiled from inside the web page where it will actually be of any use. for those who don't know: the above format is how microsoft stores class names. it's a 128-bit globally unique number. microsoft did it this way rather than attempt to work out a sensible versioning mechanism for their object model's interfaces (and we came up with a perfectly workable one after two minutes' thought, so why it eluded them puzzles us), and because there's no support for prototyping, every recompile generates a new one. even when the interface didn't change, if you're unlucky enough to be using too high level a development environment. and of course, they have to be mapped both ways, so you get lots of keys like the above, each of which may hold the same name; yet the key bearing that moniker will only refer to the most recent of those keys. stupid, stupid, stupid design decision. and of course, it's the poor schmucks who have to develop for a living who have to live with microsoft's blithering inanities. -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.clara.net!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 24 Mar 1998 22:10:00 GMT Lines: 17 Message-ID: <6f9avo$f5t$4@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <351abdda.8383513@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-050.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X On 1998-03-23 lucvdv@null.net(LucVanderVeken) said: :Exactly what I mean. In the MS world, you can compare those to :the contents of an MSDN CD: a huge pile of documentation where :you'll find what you are looking for, alphabetically sorted in :subgroups (books) per topic, in MS's case even delivered with a :good search engine. yes, but in unix, all you need is a copy of vi and you can write your own documentation. a copy of perl too and you have a search engine. microsoft...? -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 24 Mar 1998 22:21:54 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 32 Message-ID: <6f9bm2$6fm$1@news3.tufts.edu> References: <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f9av3$f5t$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890778114 6646 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: : or "better than you think" (by you, amongst others). perhaps you are the : one speaking from ignorance? No. Points have been raised here that haven't been answered. [snip] : for nothing. win95 was developed by a multi-billion dollar : multinational. the amazing thing is that there is so little to choose : between them, and that linux is better is little short of astounding. No, it just shows that a product made by people making the product for themselves is better for those kind of people. And that Microsoft had to stay backwards compatible with much early DOS crap. : it's no longer true that you get what you pay for in the software world. Very true. : and microsoft software simply *isn't* any bloody good, Oh right, that must be why the corporate culture is having such a rough time of it. : whether you want : to face it or not. it's all style and no substance. Whatever. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com twinkle twinkle / rattle squeak / how i wonder / what you seek ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!bore.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 22:37:06 GMT Organization: . Lines: 43 Message-ID: <351806cb.6468241@news.innet.be> References: <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02a-194-7-46-113.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes abigail@fnx.com (Abigail) told us > Going into a different direction than I expected only happened to me once; > recently, when I working on an NT machine. I've never seen an application > on a UNIX machine where the scroll bar took me into a different direction > than I expected. YMMV, but I have. One button down & the other up, no matter where on the scrollbar you click. In other apps they move you down if you click in the lower part, up in the upper part like in windows (or is that only because I use fvwm2 with win95 look?) The first is easier, especially because you can control how far you want to jump (instead of a fixed screenful at a time), but it's not what you expect if you're used to MS style. > ++ > (What happens if people are suddenly confronted with a horizontal > ++ > scrollbar (assuming windows has one)? They get a 2 day class on > ++ > its usuage?) > ++ > ++ This thing about "assuming" gives it away: you never saw a > ++ windo[ws|ze] PC from any closer than 20 feet. Please state > ++ explicitly in the future (like I did about CDE), or better: only > ++ discuss things you know. > > You see the question marks? It's a *question*, not a statement. ;) (Sigh - she didn't flame me back ;) The first question made me think you were not sure windows has them, and I'm still not 100% confident about how I should interprete it - maybe because I'm not completely familiar with how some things are expressed in English (I speak Dutch at home). Of course it does. But then, *everybody* has seen windows, so you probably knew that. > Hmmm, I've 92 programs that start with an x. Most of them either > don't take any files (doesn't make much sense for xload or xeyes), > of follow the convention programname [options] filename. Agree, but don't they usually allow both approaches? ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 22:37:09 GMT Organization: . Lines: 28 Message-ID: <3519108a.8964053@news.innet.be> References: <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f79ip$j6v$2@client3.news.psi.net> <6f8eig$sg7$2@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02a-194-7-46-113.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) told us > I prefer more recent editors, such as emacs on unix and programmer's file > editor on Windows, that take a noticeable time to load. Noticeable time? I just tried to time PFE: as far as I can measure without putting a timer on it, under 1 second when it wasn't in the cache. The second time I tried, it appeared instantly. I use emacs too (on linux), but that one really is a slow loader (especially the first time you start it, from the cache it's a lot faster). BTW, does anyone know an editor like PFE that's easy to use and powerful, but not so loaded with gadgets like emacs, and preferably capable of running in character mode as well as under X? (Please, not vi: I tried it, and I dislike it. You're allowed to have a different opinion: tastes do differ.) > Ah, but Windows has some of the best all-keyboard support out there. The best part of which is: exactly the same keys in whatever program you are using (with only a few exceptions, and talking about PFE: its default keymapping is one: where the standard is F3 to [continue a] search, it beats me why they decided to make F2 search and F3 search-and-replace). ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!204.186.0.13!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 22:37:10 GMT Organization: . Lines: 21 Message-ID: <351a1abd.11574588@news.innet.be> References: <1998Mar22.134207.24019@lorelei.approve.se> <6f5o19$6v2$1@news3.tufts.edu> <1998Mar23.185114.5081@lorelei.approve.se> <6f6db0$6qm$1@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02a-194-7-46-113.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) told us > As the one who has a techinal clue in this situation, the burden will be > on you to turn them from the dark side. Some time ago, our lan admin was complaining to me that he had to upgrade to office'97 (against his will) because he couldn't read a respectable percentage of his mail anymore. My first though was: if *he* can't teach them, I sure as hell ain't gonna try. I don't put the blame completely on him: I know for sure that some of the people using a computer in our company would jump on top of their desk and start to cry if he tried to tell them how to change the setting. On the other hand, he installed the packages on most of their computers himself, because the only kind of CD they know how to use the one that has music on it... ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 24 Mar 1998 22:39:36 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 65 Message-ID: <6f9cn8$6fm$3@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890779176 6646 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Juergen Nickelsen (jnickelsen@acm.org) wrote: : Kirk Is wrote: : > --but in Windows, 95% of the programs will ask you for a filename in the : > very same way, because the "system" provides that, [...] : What "the system" provides are at least three different ways to ask for : a filename. One is the way recent Microsoft applications use (Office 95 : etc.). This one lets you use the Windows 95 / NT 4.0 hierarchy with "My : Computer" on the top, and lets you browse the network neighbourhood : without a hassle. The dialog box is a little on the baroque side, : though. Well, the Office 97 with built in "Find File" feature is getting a bit much, but the "standard" one from Win95 (that, say, Notepad and Wordpad and most other medium-small apps use) lets me get to the network with no problem. : Another one is used by some other applications (e.g. Visio). You can't : select shares on hosts that are not mapped to a drive letter, and you : have to select the drive letter separately from the path. Sometimes (but : not always!) you even have to explicitly specify that you want to use : some network drive, even *if* it is mapped to a drive letter. I'm not sure if I know this one. Oh wait, I just check it out on a cow orker's machine. Looks like they may have tried to emulate the look-and-feel of the usual dialog but didn't get it quite right? Anyway, I still saw "network neighborhood" and don't know how many other programs share the problems you're claiming. : A third one seems to be used by older programs. This one has a smaller : dialog box. It is in a way like the second, but isn't even capable : following the so-called "links" (which are a pain in the ass by : themselves). Horrible. Well, these are Win3.1 apps. They don't understand long file names (like, say, "Program Files") either. And I think the shortcut links system is pretty horendous, especially when compared to soft links in unix. : (Compared to the Unix world, this is a high level of consistency, : though.) : Why is Microsoft not even capable of *cloning* the Macintosh when they : try to? I like it better than the Mac, actually, though that may just be my DOS/ Windows roots. : IMHO the fastest and most useful way of selecting a file/path name is : file name completion as implemented by Bash and Emacs. Well, Microsoft : tried that (in NT 4.0), but they fucked up even that one: (a) to switch : it on, you have to set some obscure registry key, and (b) it does not : complete the path name separator '\', so it is painful to use. Sigh. Hmm. I like that as well. Too bad it's not more common in Windows-- partially because the Tab key has a universally different function. Interesting to see what the latest browsers are trying to do with URL-completion, however. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com twinkle twinkle / rattle squeak / how i wonder / what you seek ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news-pen-1.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!mn6.swip.net!seunet!mn4.swip.net!lorelei!not-for-mail From: hoh@approve.se.NO_JUNK_EMAIL (Goran Larsson) Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Message-ID: <1998Mar24.224451.16534@lorelei.approve.se> Originator: hoh@approve.se.NO_JUNK_EMAIL (Goran Larsson) Sender: hoh@lorelei.approve.se.NO_JUNK_EMAIL (Goran Larsson) Organization: [1] + 5934 done /bin/rm -rf ~/ & X-No-Archive: yes X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test62 (21 February 1998) References: <6f5o19$6v2$1@news3.tufts.edu> <1998Mar23.185114.5081@lorelei.approve.se> <6f6db0$6qm$1@news3.tufts.edu> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 22:44:51 GMT Lines: 41 In article <6f6db0$6qm$1@news3.tufts.edu>, Kirk Is wrote: > standard for > office life. How boring. Struggling with MS Word every day between 9 and 5. > It's a standard they like. It's the only standard they know. > They like it better than your > standard, namely straight text, because it lets them keep formatting and What the %^&%* do you know about what I use? The choice isn't between queer MS Word and straight text. > Now what are you going to do about it? Just ignore them if they won't or > can't change their ways? I already told you. I just ignore them. If they can't bother translating their proprietary format into something I can eat, then it isn't worth listening to. > As the one who has a techinal clue in this situation, the burden will be > on you to turn them from the dark side. And some of these people might > likely be in authority over you-- business execs aren't always the most > tech saavy folk. "authority over you"... To me that sounds like something L.R. Hubbard, creator of the $cientology cult, would have written. The President of our company knows better than to send me MS Word files. He knows he would have to buy me an extra computer with all needed "software" if he does. -- Goran Larsson hoh AT approve DOT se I was an atheist, http://home1 DOT swipnet DOT se/%7Ew-12153/ until I found out I was God. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news-pen-1.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!mn6.swip.net!seunet!mn4.swip.net!lorelei!not-for-mail From: hoh@approve.se.NO_JUNK_EMAIL (Goran Larsson) Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Message-ID: <1998Mar24.224451.16534@lorelei.approve.se> Originator: hoh@approve.se.NO_JUNK_EMAIL (Goran Larsson) Sender: hoh@lorelei.approve.se.NO_JUNK_EMAIL (Goran Larsson) Organization: [1] + 5934 done /bin/rm -rf ~/ & X-No-Archive: yes X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test62 (21 February 1998) References: <6f5o19$6v2$1@news3.tufts.edu> <1998Mar23.185114.5081@lorelei.approve.se> <6f6db0$6qm$1@news3.tufts.edu> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 22:44:51 GMT Lines: 41 In article <6f6db0$6qm$1@news3.tufts.edu>, Kirk Is wrote: > standard for > office life. How boring. Struggling with MS Word every day between 9 and 5. > It's a standard they like. It's the only standard they know. > They like it better than your > standard, namely straight text, because it lets them keep formatting and What the %^&%* do you know about what I use? The choice isn't between queer MS Word and straight text. > Now what are you going to do about it? Just ignore them if they won't or > can't change their ways? I already told you. I just ignore them. If they can't bother translating their proprietary format into something I can eat, then it isn't worth listening to. > As the one who has a techinal clue in this situation, the burden will be > on you to turn them from the dark side. And some of these people might > likely be in authority over you-- business execs aren't always the most > tech saavy folk. "authority over you"... To me that sounds like something L.R. Hubbard, creator of the $cientology cult, would have written. The President of our company knows better than to send me MS Word files. He knows he would have to buy me an extra computer with all needed "software" if he does. -- Goran Larsson hoh AT approve DOT se I was an atheist, http://home1 DOT swipnet DOT se/%7Ew-12153/ until I found out I was God. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.idt.net!psinntp!pubxfer.news.psi.net!abigail From: abigail@fnx.com (Abigail) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 24 Mar 1998 23:09:33 GMT Organization: FNX Ltd, Intelligent Risk Management Lines: 23 Message-ID: <6f9efd$6va$2@client3.news.psi.net> References: <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f79ip$j6v$2@client3.news.psi.net> <6f8eig$sg7$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f8u7c$smd$12@client3.news.psi.net> <6f90ik$p88$2@news3.tufts.edu> Reply-To: abigail@fnx.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.220.93.3 X-Date: MDCLXVI September MCMXCIII X-HTTP: http://cthulhu.mandrake.net/%7Eabigail/ X-Revision: $Revision: 1.2 $ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 76 2E 82 7A 69 93 5F 97 AE 01 80 75 67 F3 45 D0 X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.3.2 UNIX) Kirk Is (kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu) wrote on MDCLXVI September MCMXCIII in : ++ Abigail (abigail@fnx.com) wrote: ++ : Kirk Is (kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu) wrote on MDCLXVI September ++ ++ : Uhm, you want to standardize everything, yet you still use *arrow* keys? ++ : They seem to be on a different place on every keyboard. At least an ++ : 'o' or an 'e' are on the same place on every keyboard. ++ ++ Sorry to hear your unhappy when you use computers where they keep moving ++ the arrow keys around. The 101-key-layout on PCs has been standardized ++ for years (save for those new annoying 'microsoft' keys, and despite the ++ silly capslock/ctrl switch) and my fingers know right where to go. I've been using computers for 15 years; many different types of machines. They don't move arrow keys - I move computers. I'd love to have a keyboard without arrow keys, function keys, numpad, insert/del/home/end/page up/page down, etc. Just 5 rows. Abigail ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.idt.net!psinntp!pubxfer.news.psi.net!abigail From: abigail@fnx.com (Abigail) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 24 Mar 1998 23:12:37 GMT Organization: FNX Ltd, Intelligent Risk Management Lines: 35 Message-ID: <6f9el5$6va$3@client3.news.psi.net> References: <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f79ip$j6v$2@client3.news.psi.net> <6f8dpp$sg7$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f8uof$smd$13@client3.news.psi.net> <6f90p4$p88$3@news3.tufts.edu> Reply-To: abigail@fnx.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.220.93.3 X-Date: MDCLXVI September MCMXCIII X-HTTP: http://cthulhu.mandrake.net/%7Eabigail/ X-Revision: $Revision: 1.2 $ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 76 2E 82 7A 69 93 5F 97 AE 01 80 75 67 F3 45 D0 X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.3.2 UNIX) Kirk Is (kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu) wrote on MDCLXVI September MCMXCIII in : ++ Abigail (abigail@fnx.com) wrote: ++ : Kirk Is (kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu) wrote on MDCLXVI September ++ : ++ ++ : ++ You don't use any editors that can open up a file? Never did ++ : ++ a ctrl-x ctrl-f in emacs? Started up that huge lisp-parsing ++ : ++ behemoth anew each time you need to edit something? ++ ++ : No, I don't use emacs. Because I don't like its command names. I hate ++ : all the control-meta-alt key combinations. I wouldn't be at all happy ++ : with the emacs way as the standard way of switching buffers. ++ ++ Ok, but you have to admit it's not exactly a rarely used editor in the ++ unix world. (I don't like it much either, but I find it better to use than ++ most of the other universally installed alternatives.) ++ ++ Face it: many unix and x-window programs open up existing files, and the ++ interfaces to do so are often not as standardized as they are in the ++ Windows95 (or Mac, for that matter) world. Of course many unix and x-windows programs open up files. But most of them can be used in the standardway: on the command line, after the options. And of course it's different from inside the program. People who like emacs do it the emacs way; people who like vi & clones do it the vi way. Different ways: of course. That's a *f*e*a*t*u*r*e*. Abigail ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!sibyl.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.idt.net!psinntp!pubxfer.news.psi.net!abigail From: abigail@fnx.com (Abigail) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 24 Mar 1998 23:15:39 GMT Organization: FNX Ltd, Intelligent Risk Management Lines: 20 Message-ID: <6f9eqr$6va$4@client3.news.psi.net> References: <351abdda.8383513@news.innet.be> <6f9avo$f5t$4@irk.zetnet.co.uk> Reply-To: abigail@fnx.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.220.93.3 X-Date: MDCLXVI September MCMXCIII X-HTTP: http://cthulhu.mandrake.net/%7Eabigail/ X-Revision: $Revision: 1.2 $ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 76 2E 82 7A 69 93 5F 97 AE 01 80 75 67 F3 45 D0 X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.3.2 UNIX) lisard@zetnet.co.uk (lisard@zetnet.co.uk) wrote on MDCLXVI September MCMXCIII in : ++ ++ ++ On 1998-03-23 lucvdv@null.net(LucVanderVeken) said: ++ :Exactly what I mean. In the MS world, you can compare those to ++ :the contents of an MSDN CD: a huge pile of documentation where ++ :you'll find what you are looking for, alphabetically sorted in ++ :subgroups (books) per topic, in MS's case even delivered with a ++ :good search engine. ++ ++ yes, but in unix, all you need is a copy of vi and you can write your ++ own documentation. a copy of perl too and you have a search engine. ++ microsoft...? Vi clones have been ported to microsoft. Perl has been ported to microsoft. Abigail ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!fu-berlin.de!unlisys!news.snafu.de!jnickelsen From: jnickelsen@acm.org (Juergen Nickelsen) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:21:38 +0100 Organization: Unlimited Surprise Systems, Berlin Lines: 39 Message-ID: <1d6d9dl.18ngrvp1vd2kowN@n247-72.berlin.snafu.de> References: <34E46A46.148B6C99@mdisystems.com> <6c4jf9$k1k@world6.bellatlantic.net> <6c5gcv$862$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6ddvg9$3qv@hexium.magnet> <6ducn9$va7$1@pravda.tisip.no> <6e0mf0$rv1@news.seed.net.tw> <6e1r3v$lfh$10@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <1d5qzto.18z0t9a8aj9mwN@n227h094.berlin.snafu.de> <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: n247-72.berlin.snafu.de X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.3 Kirk Is wrote: > --but in Windows, 95% of the programs will ask you for a filename in the > very same way, because the "system" provides that, [...] Ok, let's pick on that one. What "the system" provides are at least three different ways to ask for a filename. One is the way recent Microsoft applications use (Office 95 etc.). This one lets you use the Windows 95 / NT 4.0 hierarchy with "My Computer" on the top, and lets you browse the network neighbourhood without a hassle. The dialog box is a little on the baroque side, though. Another one is used by some other applications (e.g. Visio). You can't select shares on hosts that are not mapped to a drive letter, and you have to select the drive letter separately from the path. Sometimes (but not always!) you even have to explicitly specify that you want to use some network drive, even *if* it is mapped to a drive letter. A third one seems to be used by older programs. This one has a smaller dialog box. It is in a way like the second, but isn't even capable following the so-called "links" (which are a pain in the ass by themselves). Horrible. (Compared to the Unix world, this is a high level of consistency, though.) Why is Microsoft not even capable of *cloning* the Macintosh when they try to? IMHO the fastest and most useful way of selecting a file/path name is file name completion as implemented by Bash and Emacs. Well, Microsoft tried that (in NT 4.0), but they fucked up even that one: (a) to switch it on, you have to set some obscure registry key, and (b) it does not complete the path name separator '\', so it is painful to use. Sigh. -- Juergen Nickelsen ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!fu-berlin.de!unlisys!news.snafu.de!jnickelsen From: jnickelsen@acm.org (Juergen Nickelsen) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:21:46 +0100 Organization: Unlimited Surprise Systems, Berlin Lines: 46 Message-ID: <1d6da5l.28u49650et6N@n247-72.berlin.snafu.de> References: <34E46A46.148B6C99@mdisystems.com> <6c4jf9$k1k@world6.bellatlantic.net> <6c5gcv$862$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6ddvg9$3qv@hexium.magnet> <6ducn9$va7$1@pravda.tisip.no> <6e0mf0$rv1@news.seed.net.tw> <6e1r3v$lfh$10@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <1d5qzto.18z0t9a8aj9mwN@n227h094.berlin.snafu.de> <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: n247-72.berlin.snafu.de X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.3 Luc Van der Veken wrote: [scrollbars etc.] > MS doesn't always make the same thing act in the same way too, > but X windows programs don't even *try* - which is not a big > problem if you're working in the same app all the time, but > becomes a nightmare if you switch from one program to another a > lot. Yes. But X isn't a GUI -- X is a mechanism, a protocol, and a library. X wasn't meant to be a GUI from the beginning. Even the Athena widget set was meant to be just an example (mostly to show how to use Xlib and the X Toolkit for implementing a GUI), but one soon to be discarded for something better. The sad thing is that this didn't happen soon, and that the Athena widgets are still with us. Motif was supposed to be the "something better", but because it was neither free nor cheap, lots of applications were still based on Athena or brought their own widgets (like XV). Tcl/Tk is free, but it came too late to be THE widget set to use. Another try to make something better was HP's VUE (Visual User Environment, based on Motif), and while it came with several applications and had this nice toolbar with some cute icons on it (the trashcan that opened and closed its lid, the exit button that looked like a power switch, etc.), it looked mostly clumsy and aesthetically displeasing. (And by setting X Defaults for *all* widgets, it made non-VUE applications look really gross.) OpenLook from Sun was better in this respect, but I found it always hard to remember (given that I did not work with it every day) which mouse button did what in which context. I *hated* its habit of moving the mouse pointer by itself. I have seen CDE only briefly. It seems to have taken a lot of VUE without being so ugly. With this history, I think X will never have an all-embracing GUI with (nearly) all applications behaving alike when trying to open a file. This is sad, but I'd rather live with that than with MS Windows' ways. And I'd rather curse and shout at single applications than at the whole system. -- Juergen Nickelsen ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.idt.net!psinntp!pubxfer.news.psi.net!abigail From: abigail@fnx.com (Abigail) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 25 Mar 1998 00:29:49 GMT Organization: FNX Ltd, Intelligent Risk Management Lines: 46 Message-ID: <6f9j5t$1qp$1@client2.news.psi.net> References: <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <351806cb.6468241@news.innet.be> Reply-To: abigail@fnx.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.220.93.3 X-Date: MDCLXVII September MCMXCIII X-HTTP: http://cthulhu.mandrake.net/%7Eabigail/ X-Revision: $Revision: 1.2 $ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 76 2E 82 7A 69 93 5F 97 AE 01 80 75 67 F3 45 D0 X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.3.2 UNIX) Luc Van der Veken (lucvdv@null.net) wrote on MDCLXVI September MCMXCIII in : ++ abigail@fnx.com (Abigail) told us ++ ++ > Going into a different direction than I expected only happened to me once; ++ > recently, when I working on an NT machine. I've never seen an application ++ > on a UNIX machine where the scroll bar took me into a different direction ++ > than I expected. ++ ++ YMMV, but I have. One button down & the other up, no matter where ++ on the scrollbar you click. In other apps they move you down if ++ you click in the lower part, up in the upper part like in windows ++ (or is that only because I use fvwm2 with win95 look?) ++ ++ The first is easier, especially because you can control how far ++ you want to jump (instead of a fixed screenful at a time), but ++ it's not what you expect if you're used to MS style. What I prefer: left button moves down, middle drags, right button up. And the amount of scrolling is determined by where you click. A single line at the top, a screen ful an the bottom. Just the way my xterms do. (Now, if only I could those scrollbars on the right hand side). ++ > You see the question marks? It's a *question*, not a statement. ;) ++ ++ (Sigh - she didn't flame me back ;) ++ The first question made me think you were not sure windows has ++ them, and I'm still not 100% confident about how I should ++ interprete it - maybe because I'm not completely familiar with ++ how some things are expressed in English (I speak Dutch at home). I'm a native Dutch speaker as well. ++ Of course it does. But then, *everybody* has seen windows, so you ++ probably knew that. Seen windows, yes. Used it? Very seldomly. I've used a horizontal scrollbar on NT recently, but that was from an application running on a Unix box - the NT machine was just used as X-term. I would find it logical Windows has horizontal scrollbars, but I wasn't sure. Abigail ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!europa.clark.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: jav-2@world.net.att.net (John Varela) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 25 Mar 1998 01:12:55 GMT Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 11 Message-ID: <6f9lmn$djo@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> References: <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f79ip$j6v$2@client3.news.psi.net> <6f8eig$sg7$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f8u7c$smd$12@client3.news.psi.net> <6f90ik$p88$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f9efd$6va$2@client3.news.psi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.68.76.217 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: ProNews/2 Version 1.00 On Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:09:33, abigail@fnx.com (Abigail) wrote: > I'd love to have a keyboard without arrow keys, function keys, numpad, > insert/del/home/end/page up/page down, etc. Just 5 rows. The original TRS-80 Model 1. It didn't even have a numbers pad. -- John "no lower case, either" Varela (delete . between world and net to e-mail me) ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: jav-2@world.net.att.net (John Varela) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 25 Mar 1998 01:17:06 GMT Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 12 Message-ID: <6f9lui$fap@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> References: <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f8rut$8cc@newsfeeds.rpi.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.68.76.217 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: ProNews/2 Version 1.00 On Tue, 24 Mar 1998 21:43:01, tsw@cagent.com (Tom Watson) wrote: > He was probably used to 'EDLIN'. On modern machines, I suspect it starts > up VERY quickly. Not very useful, but it starts up quickly. Came with > every release of MS-DOS for quite a while. It comes with MDOS in OS/2 Warp 4. -- John "and it starts quickly" Varela (delete . between world and net to e-mail me) ###### From: pik@esmay.apana.org.au.no.junk.mail (Craig Pickering) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 25 Mar 1998 01:17:51 +1100 Organization: Phantasie Faktor - Kurri Kurri, NSW, Australia Lines: 29 Message-ID: <6f8faf$2qr@hexium.magnet> References: <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <351cc2cb.9648844@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: hexium.magnet X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!europa.clark.net!141.211.144.13!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!news.eecs.umich.edu!attila.apana.org.au!esmay.apana.org.au!esmay.apana.org.au!not-for-mail Luc Van der Veken (lucvdv@null.net) wrote: : R!ch told us : > On 22 Mar 1998, Sergej Roytman wrote: : > : > > I've seen a product called Softwindows (or something like) on some of : > > my company's SGIs. It's a 95 emulator, and comes with many of the : > > standard apps. I've played with it a little, and have gotten it to : > > run other, random programs compiled for 8x86, so I guess it emulates : > > your Intel box from the ground up. : > : > That's right: SoftWIndoze emulates the peecee hardware, not '95. A : > real copy of Winduhs runs in the emulation. : And Wine even emulates '95 in a limited way, and without that : real copy of win. Not everything runs, and if you want speed : you'd better boot the real Windoze, though. I've asked this before and gotten nowhere, but.. I thought that WINE needed a live install of REAL Windoze on a FAT partition, just like dosemu needs real, live IO/DOS/COMMAND files? BTW - How the heck does WINE emulate 95 at all? I thought 95 needed a full 386PM system to run? -Pik. -- -- PiKTag v0.01L > A bore is a man who, when asked how he is, tells you. ###### From: pik@esmay.apana.org.au.no.junk.mail (Craig Pickering) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 25 Mar 1998 01:17:51 +1100 Organization: Phantasie Faktor - Kurri Kurri, NSW, Australia Lines: 29 Message-ID: <6f8faf$2qr@hexium.magnet> References: <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <351cc2cb.9648844@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: hexium.magnet X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!europa.clark.net!141.211.144.13!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!news.eecs.umich.edu!attila.apana.org.au!esmay.apana.org.au!esmay.apana.org.au!not-for-mail Luc Van der Veken (lucvdv@null.net) wrote: : R!ch told us : > On 22 Mar 1998, Sergej Roytman wrote: : > : > > I've seen a product called Softwindows (or something like) on some of : > > my company's SGIs. It's a 95 emulator, and comes with many of the : > > standard apps. I've played with it a little, and have gotten it to : > > run other, random programs compiled for 8x86, so I guess it emulates : > > your Intel box from the ground up. : > : > That's right: SoftWIndoze emulates the peecee hardware, not '95. A : > real copy of Winduhs runs in the emulation. : And Wine even emulates '95 in a limited way, and without that : real copy of win. Not everything runs, and if you want speed : you'd better boot the real Windoze, though. I've asked this before and gotten nowhere, but.. I thought that WINE needed a live install of REAL Windoze on a FAT partition, just like dosemu needs real, live IO/DOS/COMMAND files? BTW - How the heck does WINE emulate 95 at all? I thought 95 needed a full 386PM system to run? -Pik. -- -- PiKTag v0.01L > A bore is a man who, when asked how he is, tells you. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 25 Mar 1998 02:37:56 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 59 Message-ID: <6f9qm4$9e9$1@news3.tufts.edu> References: <6f5o19$6v2$1@news3.tufts.edu> <1998Mar23.185114.5081@lorelei.approve.se> <6f6db0$6qm$1@news3.tufts.edu> <1998Mar24.224451.16534@lorelei.approve.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890793476 9673 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Goran Larsson (hoh@approve.se.NO_JUNK_EMAIL) wrote: : In article <6f6db0$6qm$1@news3.tufts.edu>, : Kirk Is wrote: : > standard for office life. : How boring. Struggling with MS Word every day between 9 and 5. Yeah, well, it's a living for some people. : > It's a standard they like. : It's the only standard they know. Yes. They choose not to be techies and learn a dozen standards and concentrate on other things. (THink tools for doing stuff, not tools for their own sake-- not always the best tools, but functional) It's also why technically oriented peole can make an awful lot of money nowadays. : > They like it better than your : > standard, namely straight text, because it lets them keep formatting and : What the %^&%* do you know about what I use? The choice isn't between : queer MS Word and straight text. Well, e-mail generally comes in straight text, HTML (which gets on the nerves of most anti-Microsfot people as well) and Word Attachments, which do suck. I could care less whether you use one of the standards or some other wacky method. : > Now what are you going to do about it? Just ignore them if they won't or : > can't change their ways? : I already told you. I just ignore them. If they can't bother translating : their proprietary format into something I can eat, then it isn't worth : listening to. Yes, people who don't dedicate their life to the Right Technology can't possibly have anything important or interesting to say. : > As the one who has a techinal clue in this situation, the burden will be : > on you to turn them from the dark side. And some of these people might : > likely be in authority over you-- business execs aren't always the most : > tech saavy folk. : "authority over you"... To me that sounds like something L.R. Hubbard, : creator of the $cientology cult, would have written. What the HELL are you talking about? : The President of our company knows better than to send me MS Word : files. He knows he would have to buy me an extra computer with all : needed "software" if he does. Well then lucky for you for knowing such a clueful executive. They're a rare breed. Get used to it. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com "Run a damp sponge across a bookshelf, and you pick up a few bits of defunct comets, of grime ground off colliding asteroids, and of powder left behind when the planets formed." --The New Yorker ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 25 Mar 1998 02:40:37 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 19 Message-ID: <6f9qr5$9e9$2@news3.tufts.edu> References: <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f79ip$j6v$2@client3.news.psi.net> <6f8eig$sg7$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f8u7c$smd$12@client3.news.psi.net> <6f90ik$p88$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f9efd$6va$2@client3.news.psi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890793637 9673 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Abigail (abigail@fnx.com) wrote: : Kirk Is (kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu) wrote on MDCLXVI September : I've been using computers for 15 years; many different types of machines. : They don't move arrow keys - I move computers. And PC users change computers, but can get the sme keyboard layout from a wide range of manufacturers, one that's fairly standard. So it's reasonable to take advantage of that in the OS. : I'd love to have a keyboard without arrow keys, function keys, numpad, : insert/del/home/end/page up/page down, etc. Just 5 rows. That would be kind of cool, but I'd miss some of those keys. Well, maybe just delete. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com "Run a damp sponge across a bookshelf, and you pick up a few bits of defunct comets, of grime ground off colliding asteroids, and of powder left behind when the planets formed." --The New Yorker ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 25 Mar 1998 02:48:55 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 28 Message-ID: <6f9ran$9e9$3@news3.tufts.edu> References: <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f79ip$j6v$2@client3.news.psi.net> <6f8dpp$sg7$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f8uof$smd$13@client3.news.psi.net> <6f90p4$p88$3@news3.tufts.edu> <6f9el5$6va$3@client3.news.psi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890794135 9673 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Abigail (abigail@fnx.com) wrote: : Of course many unix and x-windows programs open up files. But most of : them can be used in the standardway: on the command line, after the : options. And I've already explained why people don't always start up a new editor for each file. Plus, you can start all of these programs the "standardway" with the filename on the commandline from the DOS prompt, so you have no point here. : And of course it's different from inside the program. People who like : emacs do it the emacs way; people who like vi & clones do it the vi : way. Yes. Good thing a vi user only ever uses for vi for every kind of editing (text, image, or otherwise) and same for the emacs user with emacs. : Different ways: of course. That's a *f*e*a*t*u*r*e*. Good thinking. It's so important that each editor have it's own syntax for locating a file. To bad Windows tends not to be that feature rich in that vein. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com "Run a damp sponge across a bookshelf, and you pick up a few bits of defunct comets, of grime ground off colliding asteroids, and of powder left behind when the planets formed." --The New Yorker ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 25 Mar 1998 02:56:35 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 33 Message-ID: <6f9rp3$9e9$4@news3.tufts.edu> References: <6f9m1l$8ag$1@newsreader.wustl.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890794595 9673 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Tom Stepleton (ssteplet@rototiller.wustl.edu) wrote: : All this talk of open dialogs has prompted me to give my opinion of them: : they're no good in a modern, multitasking GUI. If opening a document : in the finder/explorer/whatever these days automatically launches the : app (or signals the already running app), then why is it necessary to : present the user with two different methods of opening files? Sure, : the user has to switch windows/apps to select the file, but with today's : super-fast machines and application menus/taskbars/etc. this task is : usually neither time-consuming nor cumbersome. The advantage: the user : need only remember one metaphor for most file manipulation activities. : I tend to think of open dialogs as holdovers from the single-tasking : Mac days. Yes, there's a philosophy that says there should be One True Way to do any given task in an OS-- the SwyftCard or something for Apple II (hey- folklore!) was built around that principle, according to an interview in "Programmers at Work" But why should that be? People get used to the software that comes before. There's no reason in Win95 that they can't use your method, and only your method. But just because you think that method is the best method, why should everyone be forced from what they know? I think a better philosophy is to let every reasonable (from a historical and technological sense) way of doing a task work. I can invoke an editor with the file's name in the command line or a custom shortcut, I can use the open dialog, I can double click as you suggest, or I can drag and drop. Using one or two of these on a regular basis makes my life easier. Having One True Way is just a crutch for programmers. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com "Will we ever see each other again?" "I don't know. Probably no." --Rob et al. Summer 1995 ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!ais.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news-in-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!199.125.85.9!news.mv.net!newspump.wustl.edu!newsreader.wustl.edu!not-for-mail From: ssteplet@rototiller.wustl.edu (Tom Stepleton) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 25 Mar 1998 04:58:59 GMT Organization: Washington University in St. Louis Lines: 56 Message-ID: <6fa2uj$ano$1@newsreader.wustl.edu> References: <6f9m1l$8ag$1@newsreader.wustl.edu> <6f9rp3$9e9$4@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: as0-isdn-65.wustl.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Newsreader: knews 0.9.8 In article <6f9rp3$9e9$4@news3.tufts.edu>, kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) writes: > > Yes, there's a philosophy that says there should be One True Way to do any > given task in an OS-- the SwyftCard or something for Apple II (hey- > folklore!) was built around that principle, according to an interview in > "Programmers at Work" But why should that be? People get used to the > software that comes before. There's no reason in Win95 that they can't > use your method, and only your method. But just because you think that > method is the best method, why should everyone be forced from what they > know? I think a better philosophy is to let every reasonable (from a > historical and technological sense) way of doing a task work. I can > invoke an editor with the file's name in the command line or a custom > shortcut, I can use the open dialog, I can double click as you suggest, or > I can drag and drop. Using one or two of these on a regular basis makes > my life easier. Having One True Way is just a crutch for programmers. A valid assumption in theory, but consider that with so many apps featuring different open dialogs themselves (three have been mentioned in this thread previously - I believe WordPerfect also features its own open and save boxes) abolishing open dialogs altogether might be a benefit to most office computer users. I believe that allowing different means to complete a task is a good thing up to a point, but I also find consistency and software size to be very important. In most modern GUI operating systems the user is presented with two seperate metaphors for the filesystem: the Finder/Explorer and the open dialog mini-listing. In my opinion this redundancy is pointless, even if it is important to have different means to complete a task: we already have a graphical representation of the filesystem, why do we need to confuse people with another? Furthermore, despite their similarities to the Finder/Explorer metaphor, the open and save dialogs are still different enough to cause difficulties. Consider making a backup copy of an open file before you make further changes: in many applications, you must use Save As to save the backup file, then Save As again to return to the original file. Or do you use Save A Copy In...? Or is there some obscure copy command in the save dialog box as in some versions of WordPerfect? Having One True Way may be a crutch for programmers, but it is a boon for new users. If the One True Way is elegant and can fulfill all needs more quickly, elegantly, and intuitively than before, then it is a boon for most users. I don't pretend to claim that the Finder/Explorer is the best way, but in my opinion the open dialogs are too similar to it to be necessary and too different from it to be readily learned by most users with little prior expertise. Even after mastery, I doubt that they would save much time over the Finder/Explorer metaphor. I don't think open dialogs are 'reasonable' enough to merit their existance. They will be with us for a long time now, and the impulse to "go with what you know" is strong, but I wonder if they save time and money or reduce headaches with the confusion they can cause. Tom -- s/rototiller/artsci/ in my address to e-mail me... ###### Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: knews 0.9.8 Reply-To: jamstar@glasscity.net Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow, INC References: <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f8rut$8cc@newsfeeds.rpi.edu> <6f90ek$p88$1@news3.tufts.edu> From: jamstar@freddie.jamstar.com (Keven R. Pittsinger) Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.13.12.227 Message-ID: <3518b09f.0@news.glasscity.net> Date: 25 Mar 98 07:22:07 GMT Lines: 27 Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!208.13.0.3!news.glasscity.net!208.13.12.227 In article <6f90ek$p88$1@news3.tufts.edu>, kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) writes: > Christopher Michael Cooney (coonec@rpi.edu) wrote: >: Kirk Is (kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu) wrote: >: : >: : I'm still surprised that you don't use more standard editors that >: : can open up a file without starting up an entire copy of the executable. >: : I guess if cat > a.out was good enough for grandpa, it's good enough for >: : you. >: : > >: Yes, vi takes _so_long_ to start up. >: Perhaps you're just used to an environment where the 'standard' editor >: is word. > > Well, my word for you is "emacs", aka "eight megs and constantly swapping" > back when eight megs meant a lot. There's still a grating delay while > that editor gets its act together. Emacs isn't an editor, it's a *religion*. One that I don't follow, btw. My preferences are Wordstar-oid editors like joe, or vi when I *HAVE* to use vi. Most of the time, I just use pico, like I am right now... Keven ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.229.87.25!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!195.173.173.151!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!unclebob From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 07:27:24 GMT Message-ID: <890810844snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <6f9j5t$1qp$1@client2.news.psi.net> Reply-To: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-User: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-Path: post-20.mail.demon.net!post.mail.demon.net!tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 890866174 3770 unclebob tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.29 Lines: 13 In article <6f9j5t$1qp$1@client2.news.psi.net> abigail@fnx.com "Abigail" writes: > What I prefer: left button moves down, middle drags, right button up. One day I will get the middle button on this mouse working... -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: knews 0.9.8 Reply-To: jamstar@glasscity.net Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow, INC References: <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f9av3$f5t$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6f9bm2$6fm$1@news3.tufts.edu> From: jamstar@freddie.jamstar.com (Keven R. Pittsinger) Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.13.12.227 Message-ID: <3518b255.0@news.glasscity.net> Date: 25 Mar 98 07:29:25 GMT Lines: 40 Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!surfnet.nl!howland.erols.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!208.13.0.3!news.glasscity.net!208.13.12.227 In article <6f9bm2$6fm$1@news3.tufts.edu>, kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) writes: > lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: >: or "better than you think" (by you, amongst others). perhaps you are the >: one speaking from ignorance? > > No. Points have been raised here that haven't been answered. > > [snip] >: for nothing. win95 was developed by a multi-billion dollar >: multinational. the amazing thing is that there is so little to choose >: between them, and that linux is better is little short of astounding. > > No, it just shows that a product made by people making the product for > themselves is better for those kind of people. And that Microsoft had to > stay backwards compatible with much early DOS crap. Then why is Microsoft trying to dump all that DOS crap? Reports say there will be *NO* Win 3.x support in Win98. And the HD 'footprint' will be even larger than Win95 with little or no increase in capabilities. > >: it's no longer true that you get what you pay for in the software world. > > Very true. > >: and microsoft software simply *isn't* any bloody good, > > Oh right, that must be why the corporate culture is having such > a rough time of it.> They used to say, 'back in the days', that 'you can't go wrong by specifying IBM.' Or at least, the board of directors wouldn't *fire* you for it. These days, it's 'you can't go wrong by specifying Microsoft'. And people *DO* get fired for specifying standards *OTHER* than Microsoft. An unpleasant fact of life, but still a fact. Keven ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!unclebob From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 07:33:27 GMT Message-ID: <890811207snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: Reply-To: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-User: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-Path: post-20.mail.demon.net!post.mail.demon.net!tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 890866174 3766 unclebob tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.29 Lines: 20 In article richardt@uk.sun.com "R!ch Teer" writes: > More to the point, how many people leave their editor idling, so that > they can load the next file? I personally find typing "vi foo.c" a Well I do. I simply type "emacs *.h *.c" & in the morning, switch with C-x C-b all day, and type C-x C-c late at night. Emacs largely swaps and stays swapped, and GCC becomes resident, so compilations tend to flick through in seconds, with the lazy writes catching up later. This technique seems to work, and I have 8000 lines of C developed and debugged for a client since Christmas to prove it. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.wli.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!diablo.theplanet.net!btnet-feed2!btnet!carbon.eu.sun.com!uk-usenet.uk.sun.com!paddington!richardt From: R!ch Teer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 07:56:00 +0000 Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f9av3$f5t$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6f9bm2$6fm$1@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: paddington.uk.sun.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: richardt@paddington In-Reply-To: <6f9bm2$6fm$1@news3.tufts.edu> On 24 Mar 1998, Kirk Is wrote: > No, it just shows that a product made by people making the product for > themselves is better for those kind of people. And that Microsoft had to > stay backwards compatible with much early DOS crap. Nonsense: they didn't *have* to stay backwards compatible with DOS, they chose to. How many people these days try to run DOS software in Winduhs? Not that many (those that do might have to reboot, which is no big deal, as Winduhs users are constantly rebooting anyway). > Oh right, that must be why the corporate culture is having such > a rough time of it. Oh come on. The corporate culture is using it cos most of the people wouldn't know that alternatives exist. These are the sort of people who think they "need" a 300 MHz Pentium II, with 64 MB of RAM, and 4 GB of disk space, just to run a bloody word processor to type a few memos! They don't stop to think that maybe they don't need all the features of Word 98, and that maybe Word 2, on a 100 MHz 486 with 16 MB will do the same job, just as quickly, for a lot less money. -- R!ch Teer (Email is flakey at present: use richardt@keaton.uk.sun.com) If it ain't analogue, it ain't music. #include WWW: www.rkdltd.demon.co.uk ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!news-lond.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail From: jk@langley.softwright.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 09:28:52 -0600 Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 39 Message-ID: <6fb7na$b9r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <3519b642.6438789@news.innet.be> <6f9avf$f5t$3@irk.zetnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.129.107.143 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Mar 25 15:28:52 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.0; Windows NT) In article <6f9avf$f5t$3@irk.zetnet.co.uk>, lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: > > [on CLSIDs etc] > it's a 128-bit globally unique number. microsoft did it this way > rather than attempt to work out a sensible versioning mechanism for > their object model's interfaces (and we came up with a perfectly > workable one after two minutes' thought, so why it eluded them puzzles > us), and because there's no support for prototyping, every recompile > generates a new one. even when the interface didn't change, if you're > unlucky enough to be using too high level a development environment. Visual Basic, perchance? ISTR that selecting the "binary compatibility" option in VB stops your project from generating a new CLSID every time. I agree that it's *stupid* that VB munges the CLSID every recompile unless you explicitly tell it not to, but I don't agree that GUIDs are a senseless identification mechanism: I think it's actually rather cool that I can generate an identifier on my machine that's guaranteed to be (statistically) unique in space and time. FWIW, Microsoft didn't invent GUIDs; they lifted them from DCE RPC (which underpins COM anyway), the only change along the way being a terminology change: RPC calls them UUID (universally unique), COM calls them GUIDs (globally unique). ObSheesh: Sheesh. What am I doing in an OS advocacy thread? And what's an OS advocacy thread doing here? ObAFC: Writing self-modifiying code in C64 BASIC -- to allow the user to input expressions, for example -- by printing the lines to the screen followed by a RUN 100, poking a bunch of cursor-ups and newlines into the keyboard buffer, and ENDing. Good fun. -- James Kew -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!news.algonet.se!fci-se!fci!masternews.telia.net!newspost.telia.com!news.lejonet.se!not-for-mail From: Ingvar Mattsson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 25 Mar 1998 13:48:39 +0100 Organization: Foreningen Lejonet, Linkoping, Sweden Lines: 70 Message-ID: References: <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f79ip$j6v$2@client3.news.psi.net> <6f8eig$sg7$2@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ns.idasys.se X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) writes: > > R!ch Teer (richardt@uk.sun.com) wrote: > : On 24 Mar 1998, Abigail wrote: > > : > "standard editors"? If there's anything that shouldn't be standardized, > : > it's editors. There's no point in having 145 editors that are all the > : > same, except for the name. > > : More to the point, how many people leave their editor idling, so that > : they can load the next file? I personally find typing "vi foo.c" a > > I prefer more recent editors, such as emacs on unix and programmer's file > editor on Windows, that take a noticeable time to load. If you're happy > with vi's modal system, more power to you. > > [snip] > : I can iconise them - but I tend not to.) And why you'd want to take your > : hands away from the keyboard to play with the mouse "Ok, take your hands > > Ah, but Windows has some of the best all-keyboard support out there. Where? Oh, you mean the windows-keys, that manage to steal necessary spacebar area? If that is yu idea of "all-keyboard support", we're *not* speaking the same language. > : from the home keys, stick them on the mouse. Now go to the menu bar (that's > : the line of text at the top of the window), and click where it says File. > : See the menu that drops down? Now click where it says open, and a box > : will pop up, eventually. Now you have to select the drive your data is > : on (cos some bozo made a wrong decision years ago), and the file name. > : Scroll through the list of files, and click on the one you want, and press > : the OK button. Now wait for the hour glass to go... There, your file's > : loaded! So much easier than that hard to use UNIX thing where you have > : to say (in vi), ":e filename"." > > "ctrl-o filename", almost every text editor out there for Windows. > > or better yet, > "alt-f o filename", again damn near universal. Breaks whenever you move to a Win-installation in another language (not a problem for you, maybe, but depending on what machine I sit down at work, I get "swedish" or "english" windows installs). > Pretty easy and my fingers never left the keyboard and it's very rare for > me to have to relearn that if I happen to be in a different editor. > > There is the funky placement of the ctrl key on my keyboard, but > that's not really microsoft's fault. > > (Just pressing alt and then using the arrow keys or menu accelerators is > somewhat akin to going into command mode in vi, except I get to see all > the commands visually, including a reminder of all the ctrl-s saves > and ctrl-v paste shortcuts that the program has-- Plus-- > Ctrl-X cuts Ctrl-C copies Ctrl-V pastes in and out of almost every > modern piece of windows software, converting formats on the fly, > and I already know what keys to press.) Except MS Outlook, for some *silly* reason. And not *all* visual cues for "hot-keys" are correct. Usually, a button with an underscored letter means "use ALT- to activate me", but sometimes it means "Use CTRL- to activate me". //Ingvar -- Sysadmin, disgruntled, unpolite. I don't speak for my employer nor do they speak for me. Accept this and life will be easier. ingvar@idasys.se ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 25 Mar 1998 13:53:24 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 23 Message-ID: <6fb28k$ke8$1@news3.tufts.edu> References: <6fa2uj$ano$1@newsreader.wustl.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890834004 20936 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Tom Stepleton (ssteplet@rototiller.wustl.edu) wrote: [snip some very reasonable arguments] : I don't think open dialogs are 'reasonable' enough to merit their : existance. They will be with us for a long time now, and the impulse : to "go with what you know" is strong, but I wonder if they save time : and money or reduce headaches with the confusion they can cause. I see what your saying. Two counterpoints: 1. How in this Open-Dialog free system would save files? It seems as if a save dialog of some sort is a good idea, which then implies an open dialog for aesthetic symmetry. I suppose you could limit people to using the Finder/Explorer "create new ______ document", but that always struck me as not-too-convenient or intuitive. 2.You are following the Microsoft example of mixing "easy for newbies" with "easy to use", (at the expense of "irritating for slightly-oldtimers") Once the concept of documents in directories on disks is grasped (which isn't always the easiest process, admitedly) having two views isn't that confusing, I believe. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com "If I can't be free, at least I'll be cheap"--some guy on the net ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!209.6.107.173!newsfeed.xcom.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 25 Mar 1998 13:57:03 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 21 Message-ID: <6fb2ff$ke8$2@news3.tufts.edu> References: <3518b09f.0@news.glasscity.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890834223 20936 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Keven R. Pittsinger (jamstar@freddie.jamstar.com) wrote: : In article <6f90ek$p88$1@news3.tufts.edu>, : kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) writes: : > Well, my word for you is "emacs", aka "eight megs and constantly swapping" : > back when eight megs meant a lot. There's still a grating delay while : > that editor gets its act together. : Emacs isn't an editor, it's a *religion*. : One that I don't follow, btw. My preferences are Wordstar-oid editors : like joe, or vi when I *HAVE* to use vi. Most of the time, I just use : pico, like I am right now... Shhhh-- I like it to, but I was afraid to mention it. I think the emacs brigade would be jealous of my backspace key that always works and scornful of my easy onscreen ctrl-keymappings. Terrible to write code in, but good for normal text -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com "Double integral is also the shape of lovers curled asleep" --Pynchon ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 25 Mar 1998 14:10:04 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 34 Message-ID: <6fb37s$kmm$1@news3.tufts.edu> References: <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <3518b255.0@news.glasscity.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890835004 21206 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Keven R. Pittsinger (jamstar@freddie.jamstar.com) wrote: : In article <6f9bm2$6fm$1@news3.tufts.edu>, : kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) writes: : > No, it just shows that a product made by people making the product for : > themselves is better for those kind of people. And that Microsoft had to : > stay backwards compatible with much early DOS crap. : Then why is Microsoft trying to dump all that DOS crap? Reports say there : will be *NO* Win 3.x support in Win98. And the HD 'footprint' will be : even larger than Win95 with little or no increase in capabilities. Because by now even THEY are aware of how it's holding them back. Surprised to hear about the Win3.1 issue, But even if they cut out support for Win3.1 they still have to be Win95 compatabile, which had some design decsion made because of 3.1 and DOS. It's hard to completely break free. : >: and microsoft software simply *isn't* any bloody good, : > : > Oh right, that must be why the corporate culture is having such : > a rough time of it.> : They used to say, 'back in the days', that 'you can't go wrong by : specifying IBM.' Or at least, the board of directors wouldn't *fire* you : for it. These days, it's 'you can't go wrong by specifying Microsoft'. : And people *DO* get fired for specifying standards *OTHER* than Microsoft. : An unpleasant fact of life, but still a fact. Yes. They find a workable if not stellar one-stop-shopping standard is better than many standards.. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com "Bad artists borrow, good artists steal" --Picasso ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 25 Mar 1998 14:16:43 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 41 Message-ID: <6fb3kb$kmm$2@news3.tufts.edu> References: <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f9av3$f5t$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6f9bm2$6fm$1@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890835403 21206 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] R!ch Teer (richardt@uk.sun.com) wrote: : On 24 Mar 1998, Kirk Is wrote: : > No, it just shows that a product made by people making the product for : > themselves is better for those kind of people. And that Microsoft had to : > stay backwards compatible with much early DOS crap. : Nonsense: they didn't *have* to stay backwards compatible with DOS, they : chose to. How many people these days try to run DOS software in Winduhs? : Not that many (those that do might have to reboot, which is no big deal, : as Winduhs users are constantly rebooting anyway). The games community demanded, for instance. And I like the feature frankly, it's why I haven't switched to NT on my desktop. BTW, saying "Winduhs" really doesn't add force to your argument. : > Oh right, that must be why the corporate culture is having such : > a rough time of it. : Oh come on. The corporate culture is using it cos most of the people : wouldn't know that alternatives exist. These are the sort of people : who think they "need" a 300 MHz Pentium II, with 64 MB of RAM, and 4 GB : of disk space, just to run a bloody word processor to type a few memos! Yes, you're right. And frankly, most of the alternatives aren't as friendly or widely compatible as the Microsoft "solution" : They don't stop to think that maybe they don't need all the features : of Word 98, and that maybe Word 2, on a 100 MHz 486 with 16 MB will do : the same job, just as quickly, for a lot less money. On the other hand, Word in Office 97 has some really nice features that Word 2 doesn't, like underlining misspelled words and that little paperclip, which is actually going a long way towards user friendliness. Plus, it seems to me that Word97 opens up to a new document *much* faster than Word95. So it's not all pure bloat. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com "Bad artists borrow, good artists steal" --Picasso ###### From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 25 Mar 1998 14:23:27 GMT Organization: Tufts University Message-ID: <6fb40v$kmm$3@news3.tufts.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890835808 21206 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 44 Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!news.freedom2surf.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news-lond.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael Ingvar Mattsson (ingvar@sunserv.idasys.se) wrote: : kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) writes: : > Ah, but Windows has some of the best all-keyboard support out there. : Where? Oh, you mean the windows-keys, that manage to steal necessary : spacebar area? If that is yu idea of "all-keyboard support", we're : *not* speaking the same language. No, I hate those keys. I mean the way how I haven't touched my mouse since booting my PC at home this morning to logging onto my ISP to running telnet, starting up MS-Word to spellchek a word, to opening up a browser, checking my mail, and checking out the comments part of my website. And I only used a command line in that once, for telnet, just because I'm too lazy to add a shortcut. (I know I haven't touched my mouse because I'm sitting way back in my comfy chair with the mouse far away on the floor) I hate those keys too, but damn, how much "neccesary spacebar area" do you require? : > "ctrl-o filename", almost every text editor out there for Windows. : > : > or better yet, : > "alt-f o filename", again damn near universal. : Breaks whenever you move to a Win-installation in another language : (not a problem for you, maybe, but depending on what machine I sit : down at work, I get "swedish" or "english" windows installs). True enough. Though you could still hit 'alt' to get to the menu via the keyboard, then use down arrow to move the menu selector down to the "open" equivalent, then return to selct open. : Except MS Outlook, for some *silly* reason. And not *all* visual cues : for "hot-keys" are correct. Usually, a button with an underscored : letter means "use ALT- to activate me", but sometimes it means : "Use CTRL- to activate me". Hmmm. Yes, some MS apps don't follow the MS guidelines, which is dumb. Don't know about the 'hot-keys' thing. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com "Bad artists borrow, good artists steal" --Picasso ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!wnfeed!worldnet.att.net!209.150.160.22!newsfeed.wli.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!diablo.theplanet.net!btnet-feed2!btnet!carbon.eu.sun.com!uk-usenet.uk.sun.com!paddington!richardt From: R!ch Teer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:19:40 +0000 Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <351cc2cb.9648844@news.innet.be> <6f8faf$2qr@hexium.magnet> NNTP-Posting-Host: paddington.uk.sun.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: richardt@paddington In-Reply-To: <6f8faf$2qr@hexium.magnet> On 25 Mar 1998, Craig Pickering wrote: > BTW - How the heck does WINE emulate 95 at all? I thought 95 needed a full > 386PM system to run? You've sort of answered your own question. If '95 does need a 386 PM system to run, WINE must emulate one. -- R!ch Teer (Email is flakey at present: use richardt@keaton.uk.sun.com) If it ain't analogue, it ain't music. #include WWW: www.rkdltd.demon.co.uk ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.clark.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!diablo.theplanet.net!btnet-feed2!btnet!carbon.eu.sun.com!uk-usenet.uk.sun.com!paddington!richardt From: R!ch Teer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:34:54 +0000 Lines: 48 Message-ID: References: <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f9av3$f5t$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6f9bm2$6fm$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fb3kb$kmm$2@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: paddington.uk.sun.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: richardt@paddington In-Reply-To: <6fb3kb$kmm$2@news3.tufts.edu> On 25 Mar 1998, Kirk Is wrote: > The games community demanded, for instance. And I like the feature > frankly, it's why I haven't switched to NT on my desktop. Fair point, but what's wrong with having a dual boot machine: DOS for the games, and Winduhs for "work"? > BTW, saying "Winduhs" really doesn't add force to your argument. Possibly. I used to say Windoze, as an allusion to Windows' slothness. Given the CPU horsepower available on peecees these days, Windows isn't necessarily slow (until compareed to a Real OS). I use Winduhs these days, to imply that Windows is only of use to Induhviduals (see the Dilbert zone for more info about Induhviduals), as those more discerning would do the Right Thing and use an alternative. > Yes, you're right. And frankly, most of the alternatives aren't as > friendly or widely compatible as the Microsoft "solution" Mmm. As a rule, "friendly" means "what I know". I find Winduhs distinctly unfriendly, as I don't think the way it wants me to. Ditto for Macs. I find UNIX friendly, as over the years I've started thinking the UNIX way (especially with modern GUI frontends). Compatible? If one doesn't need to exchange documents with people outside of one's company, I don't think compatibilty counts much. Even then, most competative products can read each other's formats, so it's not such an issue. Also, there are product-unspecific ways of distributing docs, although admittedly you sometimes lose something in the translation. > On the other hand, Word in Office 97 has some really nice features that > Word 2 doesn't, like underlining misspelled words and that little > paperclip, which is actually going a long way towards user friendliness. > Plus, it seems to me that Word97 opens up to a new document *much* faster > than Word95. So it's not all pure bloat. But is Word '97 faster than Word 2, on the same hardware? -- R!ch Teer (Email is flakey at present: use richardt@keaton.uk.sun.com) If it ain't analogue, it ain't music. #include WWW: www.rkdltd.demon.co.uk ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 25 Mar 1998 16:05:28 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 73 Message-ID: <6fba08$n60$1@news3.tufts.edu> References: <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f9av3$f5t$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6f9bm2$6fm$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fb3kb$kmm$2@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890841928 23744 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] R!ch Teer (richardt@uk.sun.com) wrote: : On 25 Mar 1998, Kirk Is wrote: : > The games community demanded, for instance. And I like the feature : > frankly, it's why I haven't switched to NT on my desktop. : Fair point, but what's wrong with having a dual boot machine: DOS : for the games, and Winduhs for "work"? Annoying to balance two sets of drivers, besides the pain-in-the-butt-ness of rebooting. (Yes, when you load a Windows system up with a ton of doodads, it might require rebooting every month or so. YMMV.) : Possibly. I used to say Windoze, as an allusion to Windows' slothness. : Given the CPU horsepower available on peecees these days, Windows : isn't necessarily slow (until compareed to a Real OS). I use Winduhs : these days, to imply that Windows is only of use to Induhviduals : (see the Dilbert zone for more info about Induhviduals), as those : more discerning would do the Right Thing and use an alternative. I disagree. It's fun and compatible with everyone else at work. There's no compelling reason to switch, otherwise I would-- it's not as if I don't have the knowledge resources to install an alternative. I just wish the game "Koules" had been ported. : > Yes, you're right. And frankly, most of the alternatives aren't as : > friendly or widely compatible as the Microsoft "solution" : Mmm. As a rule, "friendly" means "what I know". I find Winduhs : distinctly unfriendly, as I don't think the way it wants me to. : Ditto for Macs. I find UNIX friendly, as over the years I've : started thinking the UNIX way (especially with modern GUI frontends). I don't think that the learning curve for Macs and PCs (starting from ground zero, not for someone like you) is not as steep as for Unix with X-Windows. The gap is closing, but it would be much tougher to find a modern affordable office-like suite for any other OS. : Compatible? If one doesn't need to exchange documents with people : outside of one's company, Which comes up. : I don't think compatibilty counts much. : Even then, most competative products can read each other's formats, : so it's not such an issue. Also, there are product-unspecific ways : of distributing docs, although admittedly you sometimes lose something : in the translation. Also, what about when you switch companies? Chances are good for a coorporate emplyee that they'll be going from one MS desktop to another, which makes the switch over easier for them. : > On the other hand, Word in Office 97 has some really nice features that : > Word 2 doesn't, like underlining misspelled words and that little : > paperclip, which is actually going a long way towards user friendliness. : > Plus, it seems to me that Word97 opens up to a new document *much* faster : > than Word95. So it's not all pure bloat. : But is Word '97 faster than Word 2, on the same hardware? Probably not, but it's A. Fast enough on a not-that-close-to-leading-edge system and B. More feature rich, including features I use all the time (realtime spellchecking, context sensitive menus, corrections of abbreviations or commonly mistyped words.) So if it's fast enough, why should I worry about how slow it would be on the hardware I had in 93 or 94? I upgrade to play the latest games, might as well get the MS wares to go with it. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com the rain in spain falls mainly on me. ###### From: R!ch Teer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:44:52 +0000 Lines: 53 Message-ID: References: <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f9av3$f5t$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6f9bm2$6fm$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fb3kb$kmm$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6fba08$n60$1@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: paddington.uk.sun.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: richardt@paddington In-Reply-To: <6fba08$n60$1@news3.tufts.edu> Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!news.freedom2surf.net!colt.net!Pollux.Teleglobe.net!wesley.videotron.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!Supernews73!supernews.com!newsfeed.wli.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!diablo.theplanet.net!btnet-feed2!btnet!carbon.eu.sun.com!uk-usenet.uk.sun.com!paddington!richardt On 25 Mar 1998, Kirk Is wrote: > Annoying to balance two sets of drivers, besides the pain-in-the-butt-ness > of rebooting. (Yes, when you load a Windows system up with a ton of > doodads, it might require rebooting every month or so. YMMV.) Granted. > I disagree. It's fun and compatible with everyone else at work. There's ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Not here it ain't! :-) > I don't think that the learning curve for Macs and PCs (starting from > ground zero, not for someone like you) is not as steep as for Unix with It'd be an interesting experiment, but you may be right. > X-Windows. The gap is closing, but it would be much tougher to find a Cretainly; the gap isn't as wide as it was when UNIX meant a straight VT100, with no graphical apps (although SunOS has had a windowing front-end longer than Winduhs, IIRC). > modern affordable office-like suite for any other OS. Star Office? Applixware (Doesn't really count tho': it's hardly cheap!), possibly others. > Also, what about when you switch companies? Chances are good for a > coorporate emplyee that they'll be going from one MS desktop to another, > which makes the switch over easier for them. :-) I'm a C/UNIX developer (contractor), so I can (and do) avoid using M$ at work. At home I use a Sun set up too. > So if it's fast enough, why should I worry about how slow it would be on > the hardware I had in 93 or 94? I upgrade to play the latest games, might > as well get the MS wares to go with it. Fair point, but I think that in the interest of industry diversification (sp?!) it'd be good to use another's companies products when possible. Granted, you have to go to M$ for the OS, but there's plenty of suppliers of Office productivity software. -- R!ch Teer (Email is flakey at present: use richardt@keaton.uk.sun.com) If it ain't analogue, it ain't music. #include WWW: www.rkdltd.demon.co.uk ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!btnet-peer!btnet!neptunium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail From: Lars Duning Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:58:33 +0000 Organization: MDi Systems Lines: 8 Message-ID: <351937B9.2AF0BBF7@mdisystems.com> References: <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f9av3$f5t$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6f9bm2$6fm$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fb3kb$kmm$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6fba08$n60$1@news3.tufts.edu> Reply-To: lars@cableinet.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: host5-99-60-53.btinternet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Kirk Is wrote: ["Windows" vs. "Winduhs"] > I disagree. It's fun and compatible with everyone else at work. You mean, it's compatible with itself? Ok, given Microsoft's track record this is in fact quite an achievement. -- Lars Duening; lars@cableinet.co.uk (Home) ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!Supernews60!supernews.com!news.umbc.edu!not-for-mail From: bhurle1@umbc.edu (hurley bryan) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 25 Mar 1998 17:52:17 -0500 Organization: University of Maryland, Baltimore County Lines: 53 Message-ID: <6fc1r1$k5f@umbc8.umbc.edu> References: <6f9bm2$6fm$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fbtj4$huf$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6fbvvh$u8i$1@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: umbc8.umbc.edu Win95 is on top of DOS, at least Caldera, makers of OpenDOS, claim. Jumping on the monoploy bandwagon, they claimed that MS has an illegal monopoly on the DOS market. They sucessfully removed MSDOS from under Win95 and substituted OpenDOS, and not only did it work, but there was a slight speed improvement too. I would like that install... bryan In article <6fbvvh$u8i$1@news3.tufts.edu>, Kirk Is wrote: >lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: > > >: On 1998-03-24 kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu(KirkIs) said: >: :lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: >: ::perhaps you are the one speaking from ignorance? > >: :No. Points have been raised here that haven't been answered. > >: what points? > >That Microsoft has better look-and-feel than the vast majority of >Unix/X-windows and has great strength in being a defacto corporate >standard. > >: backwards compatible, you say? win95 still runs on *top* of dos, it's > >Jeezie petes, not this lame ass argument *again* > >: not a question of whether to support backward compatibility. linux was >: always technically superior, and it's getting to a point of aesthetic >: superiority too now. and you have made the point many times about >: "starting up a whole app, just to edit another file". sorry, that's what > >You missed the point there pal, it's that Windows provides a consistent >"Open File" dialog that's more universal than anything across all Unix/X >apps. The "starting up a whole app" was actually a defense the anti-MS >people used (saying that unix users usually just invoke the filename from >the commandl ine.) Try again. > >[snip] > >: which parts of the corporate world are you involved with? > >Web developer for a subsidiary of Dow Jones. Why? > >-- >Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com >John Cage pointed out that we are never in silence- in the stillest of >rooms we carry the high pitched jangle of our nervous system, the low >throb of coursing blood. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.dpn.de!news-out1.du.gtn.com!news-in2.du.gtn.com!news.btu.de!news.rhein-neckar.de!tutnix.rhein-neckar.de!espresso.hf.org!hauke From: hauke@Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE (Hauke Fath) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 20:36:05 +0100 Organization: Einzeln auftretender Radfahrer Lines: 18 Message-ID: <19980325203605387869@erbse.hf.org> References: <6e0mf0$rv1@news.seed.net.tw> <6e1r3v$lfh$10@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <1d5qzto.18z0t9a8aj9mwN@n227h094.berlin.snafu.de> <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f8rut$8cc@newsfeeds.rpi.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: erbse.hf.org X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.2b3 Tom Watson wrote: > He was probably used to 'EDLIN'. On modern machines, I suspect it starts > up VERY quickly. Not very useful, but it starts up quickly. Came with > every release of MS-DOS for quite a while. MSDOS? I saw EDLIN.EXE in d:\winnt\system32 of an NT 4 installation just today. Didn't actually start it up though so I cannot tell if it's simply a wrapper for NOTEPAD.EXE. =8) hauke -- "It's never straight up and down" (DEVO) ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 25 Mar 1998 21:39:48 GMT Message-ID: <6fbtj4$huf$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <6f9bm2$6fm$1@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-157.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 41 On 1998-03-24 kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu(KirkIs) said: :lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: ::perhaps you are the one speaking from ignorance? :No. Points have been raised here that haven't been answered. what points? :: for nothing. win95 was developed by a multi-billion dollar :: multinational. the amazing thing is that there is so little to :: choose between them, and that linux is better is little short of :: astounding. :No, it just shows that a product made by people making the product :for themselves is better for those kind of people. And that :Microsoft had to stay backwards compatible with much early DOS crap. backwards compatible, you say? win95 still runs on *top* of dos, it's not a question of whether to support backward compatibility. linux was always technically superior, and it's getting to a point of aesthetic superiority too now. and you have made the point many times about "starting up a whole app, just to edit another file". sorry, that's what windows does. in fact, whether an application's text is shared or not is up to the application. unix always shares text, as far as we know, just as any multitasking system worth its salt would. :: and microsoft software simply *isn't* any bloody good, :Oh right, that must be why the corporate culture is having such :a rough time of it. well, the parts we program for are. in fact, they haven't upgraded from win3.x yet. and certainly developers who have to experience developing for microsoft platforms know it. which parts of the corporate world are you involved with? -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 25 Mar 1998 21:39:58 GMT Message-ID: <6fbtje$huf$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <6f9eqr$6va$4@client3.news.psi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-157.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 21 On 1998-03-24 abigail@fnx.com said: :Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers :lisard@zetnet.co.uk (lisard@zetnet.co.uk) wrote on MDCLXVI September 1666 september 1993? hmm. :MCMXCIII in : :++ :++ yes, but in unix, all you need is a copy of vi and you can write :++ your own documentation. a copy of perl too and you have a search :++ engine. microsoft...? :Vi clones have been ported to microsoft. :Perl has been ported to microsoft. we know, we use them. that isn't what we meant. we meant, precisely what is required to write a help file on microsoft's systems, in comparison with the simplicity of unix? -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 25 Mar 1998 21:40:06 GMT Message-ID: <6fbtjm$huf$3@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <6fb7na$b9r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-157.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 52 On 1998-03-25 jk@langley.softwright.co.uk said: :>every recompile generates a new one. even when the :>interface didn't change, if you're unlucky enough to be using too :>high level a development environment. :Visual Basic, perchance? ISTR that selecting the "binary :compatibility" option in VB stops your project from generating a :new CLSID every time. how did you guess? :> vb5cce, in fact. it's actually (for all our ms-bashing) not too bad an environment really. :I agree that it's *stupid* that VB munges the CLSID every recompile :unless you explicitly tell it not to, but I don't agree that GUIDs :are a senseless identification mechanism: I think it's actually :rather cool that I can generate an identifier on my machine that's :guaranteed to be (statistically) unique in space and time. it is, but it shouldn't be used in isolation, which is effectively what microsoft does. what bothers us, though, is not so much that they use these identifiers for naming classes, or naming objects - they use them for naming interfaces, which are then deemed immutable. this is a *seriously* poor design decision. java shows a rather better way to name class hierarchies. :FWIW, Microsoft didn't invent GUIDs; they lifted them from DCE RPC :(which underpins COM anyway), the only change along the way being a :terminology change: RPC calls them UUID (universally unique), COM :calls them GUIDs (globally unique). DCE underpins DCOM - it's the mechanism by which DCOM makes its RPCs between computers. COM predates the adoption of DCE (although they were always planning to use it). :ObSheesh: Sheesh. What am I doing in an OS advocacy thread? And :what's an OS advocacy thread doing here? don't look at us, we didn't start it. :> :ObAFC: Writing self-modifiying code in C64 BASIC -- to allow the :user to input expressions, for example -- by printing the lines to :the screen followed by a RUN 100, poking a bunch of cursor-ups and :newlines into the keyboard buffer, and ENDing. Good fun. our turn. a much better application of a distributed system was the V kernel. we intend to borrow bits of it at the earliest opportunity. also, does anyone have a spare alto? :> -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 25 Mar 1998 21:40:14 GMT Message-ID: <6fbtju$huf$4@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <6f9m1l$8ag$1@newsreader.wustl.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-157.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 22 On 1998-03-25 ssteplet@rototiller.wustl.edu(TomStepleton) said: :kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) writes: :> You're write. It's less an issue of time on that, and more that :>I'm not ususally using the command line, I can't double click on :>a file to edit it, I'd most likely drag it if it was in view or :>use the open dialog. :All this talk of open dialogs has prompted me to give my opinion of :them: they're no good in a modern, multitasking GUI. If opening a :document in the finder/explorer/whatever these days automatically :launches the app (or signals the already running app), then why is :it necessary to present the user with two different methods of :opening files? what happens when you double-click on a c file? -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 25 Mar 1998 22:20:33 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 41 Message-ID: <6fbvvh$u8i$1@news3.tufts.edu> References: <6f9bm2$6fm$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fbtj4$huf$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890864433 30994 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: : On 1998-03-24 kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu(KirkIs) said: : :lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: : ::perhaps you are the one speaking from ignorance? : :No. Points have been raised here that haven't been answered. : what points? That Microsoft has better look-and-feel than the vast majority of Unix/X-windows and has great strength in being a defacto corporate standard. : backwards compatible, you say? win95 still runs on *top* of dos, it's Jeezie petes, not this lame ass argument *again* : not a question of whether to support backward compatibility. linux was : always technically superior, and it's getting to a point of aesthetic : superiority too now. and you have made the point many times about : "starting up a whole app, just to edit another file". sorry, that's what You missed the point there pal, it's that Windows provides a consistent "Open File" dialog that's more universal than anything across all Unix/X apps. The "starting up a whole app" was actually a defense the anti-MS people used (saying that unix users usually just invoke the filename from the commandl ine.) Try again. [snip] : which parts of the corporate world are you involved with? Web developer for a subsidiary of Dow Jones. Why? -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com John Cage pointed out that we are never in silence- in the stillest of rooms we carry the high pitched jangle of our nervous system, the low throb of coursing blood. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!newsfeed.internetmci.com!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 25 Mar 1998 22:24:20 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 22 Message-ID: <6fc06k$u8i$2@news3.tufts.edu> References: <6f9m1l$8ag$1@newsreader.wustl.edu> <6fbtju$huf$4@irk.zetnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890864660 30994 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: : On 1998-03-25 ssteplet@rototiller.wustl.edu(TomStepleton) said: : :All this talk of open dialogs has prompted me to give my opinion of : :them: they're no good in a modern, multitasking GUI. If opening a : :document in the finder/explorer/whatever these days automatically : :launches the app (or signals the already running app), then why is : :it necessary to present the user with two different methods of : :opening files? : what happens when you double-click on a c file? Well, in Windows-land, you'd probably have it open up the IDE you're using for C. If you really want to, you could probably add a "compile" option to the context (right-mouse-button) menu, or mayube even make 'compile' the default action for the double click. The no-file-dialog system could work, I just don't think it's a great idea. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com "All life is 6-to-5 against, just enough to keep you interested" --Runyon ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!europa.clark.net!195.173.173.151!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!firepile.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: jaimie@firepile.demon.co.uk (Jaimie Vandenbergh) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:15:13 GMT Message-ID: <351e86b4.13252265@news.demon.co.uk> References: <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f79ip$j6v$2@client3.news.psi.net> <6f97n9$18e$1@news3.tufts.edu> Reply-To: jaimie@firepile.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: firepile.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: firepile.demon.co.uk [158.152.188.236] X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 44 On 24 Mar 1998 21:14:17 GMT, kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) wrote: >One thing I miss, though, is tab-completion of filenames. Still try and do it, though... >And I wish the 'Explorer' (not the two paned one, the one that opens up >when you double click on a folder) had an option to bring back ".." as a >folder item, since it would make keyboard only navigation *so* much >easier. Backspace, mate. But you lose selected-item focus for no readily apparent reason, so you can't just hut enter to go forward again. (and you might want to know this - Explorer/view/options/filetypes/folder/edit/explore/setdefault sets Explorer to be the default view) What annoys me is the regular consistency failures on windows. This, and the fact that you don't _expect_ any sort of consistency under any of the Unices I've explored is quite telling. Under Gates, there are a number of common ways of doing things that almost always work - alt+f4, ctrl-p, alt+arrowkeys+enter. When these don't work, you stumble. Working in Unix applications, you learn each app interface individually, so you don't get bothered by that sort of thing. Makes it slower to get into the functionality of each app, but that doesn't matter greatly as long as it's quick with practice. Oh, and to whoever first said "Scrollbars" - it's the ones that require three mouse buttons that get on my wick. Mouse1 for pgup, mouse2 for drag, mouse3 for pgdn. So leftclicking below the thumb will send the thumb upwards. Which widget set is that, anyway? Athena? Personally, the only thing (apart from games) keeping me on Win32 is Agent. If someone can lead me to an equally useful *off*line* newsreader, I'll close off this NTFS partition for good. Jaimie -- "Once you adopt the unix paradigm, the variants cease to be a problem - you bitch, of course, but that's because bitching is fun, unlike M$ OS's, where bitching is required to keep your head from exploding." - S Stremler in afc ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!firepile.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: jaimie@firepile.demon.co.uk (Jaimie Vandenbergh) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:15:17 GMT Message-ID: <351f87f2.13570203@news.demon.co.uk> References: <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f9av3$f5t$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6f9bm2$6fm$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fb3kb$kmm$2@news3.tufts.edu> Reply-To: jaimie@firepile.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: firepile.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: firepile.demon.co.uk [158.152.188.236] X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 On Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:34:54 +0000, R!ch Teer wrote: >But is Word '97 faster than Word 2, on the same hardware? Word two is much faster than Wordpad, and a bit slower than Notepad. I still quite like it, I must say. It does fully justified .txt files. Jaimie -- "Once you adopt the unix paradigm, the variants cease to be a problem - you bitch, of course, but that's because bitching is fun, unlike M$ OS's, where bitching is required to keep your head from exploding." - S Stremler in afc ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!newsfeed.internetmci.com!192.87.106.104!surfnet.nl!barba.uci.kun.nl!not-for-mail From: J.Hendrickx@maw.kun.nl (John Hendrickx) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:29:02 +0100 Organization: University of Nijmegen Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <34E46A46.148B6C99@mdisystems.com> <6c4jf9$k1k@world6.bellatlantic.net> <6c5gcv$862$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6ddvg9$3qv@hexium.magnet> <6ducn9$va7$1@pravda.tisip.no> <6e0mf0$rv1@news.seed.net.tw> <6e1r3v$lfh$10@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <1d5qzto.18z0t9a8aj9mwN@n227h094.berlin.snafu.de> <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <1d6d9dl.18ngrvp1vd2kowN@n247-72.berlin.snafu.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: ib108.extern.kun.nl X-Newsreader: Anawave Gravity v2.00 In article <1d6d9dl.18ngrvp1vd2kowN@n247-72.berlin.snafu.de>, jnickelsen@acm.org says... > > IMHO the fastest and most useful way of selecting a file/path name is > file name completion as implemented by Bash and Emacs. Well, Microsoft > tried that (in NT 4.0), but they fucked up even that one: (a) to switch > it on, you have to set some obscure registry key, and (b) it does not > complete the path name separator '\', so it is painful to use. Sigh. > Try "cmdedit", available from the /msdos/keyboards/ directory of your friendly neighbourhood SIMTEL archive. The original version was vintage 92, the latest updates are from 97. Provides aliases/shell functions and command line completion. AND a cd command that lets you change drives (look for that feature in Windows 2005). BTW, the DOS 7.0 "more" command lets you quit by pressing 'q'. Is that new, or wasn't I paying attention during earlier versions (the '/p' switch still requires a ^c). ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:51:22 GMT Organization: . Lines: 30 Message-ID: <3519585b.4589816@news.innet.be> References: <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f79ip$j6v$2@client3.news.psi.net> <6f8eig$sg7$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f8u7c$smd$12@client3.news.psi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02a-194-7-47-115.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes abigail@fnx.com (Abigail) told us > Uhm, you want to standardize everything, yet you still use *arrow* keys? > They seem to be on a different place on every keyboard. At least an > 'o' or an 'e' are on the same place on every keyboard. As long as you're in the US, yes. Arrow keys may move around from keyboard to keyboard, but at least they are always in a logical position with respect to each other. Compare US to European layouts: US France, Belgium Germany Q W E R T Y A Z E R T Y Q W E R T Z U A S D F Q S D F (don't remember Z X C V W X C V the rest) Can you imagine a program using A for left, S for right, Q or W for up and Z for down? And believe me, they exist (mostly games, but they exist). It doesn't bother me personally because I prefer a US layout. (Even though I once (looong ago) was an AZERTY touch typist - took me some time to adapt, but in those days computers didn't come with AZERTY keyboards yet: PDP-8, PDP-11, TRS-80, CBM PET,...) Nowadays, it's hard to find a PC with US layout over here. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:51:23 GMT Organization: . Lines: 8 Message-ID: <351a5fe4.6518255@news.innet.be> References: <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f79ip$j6v$2@client3.news.psi.net> <6f8eig$sg7$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f8u7c$smd$12@client3.news.psi.net> <6f90ik$p88$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f9efd$6va$2@client3.news.psi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02a-194-7-47-115.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes abigail@fnx.com (Abigail) told us > I'd love to have a keyboard without arrow keys, function keys, numpad, > insert/del/home/end/page up/page down, etc. Just 5 rows. It's easier to pretend they are not there, than to try and use them if they really aren't ;) ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:51:25 GMT Organization: . Lines: 32 Message-ID: <351d6c0a.9628710@news.innet.be> References: <6f9m1l$8ag$1@newsreader.wustl.edu> <6f9rp3$9e9$4@news3.tufts.edu> <6fa2uj$ano$1@newsreader.wustl.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02a-194-7-47-115.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes ssteplet@rototiller.wustl.edu (Tom Stepleton) told us > ..., but consider that with so many apps > featuring different open dialogs themselves (three have been mentioned > in this thread previously - I believe WordPerfect also features its own > open and save boxes) abolishing open dialogs altogether might be a > benefit to most office computer users. I believe that it was in your previous post that you suggested switching to explorer to do it every time. Even with today's computer speeds I'd find that a bit too time consuming, but also: A closer examination of open dialogs in win95 (except maybe WP's, I don't know that one) shows that they are in fact just narrowed-down explorer views: most things that can be done in explorer, can be done in these windows too: rename or delete files, create new directories,... (just try the right mouse button). So in fact you *are* going back to explorer. > I don't think open dialogs are 'reasonable' enough to merit their > existance. They will be with us for a long time now, and the impulse > to "go with what you know" is strong, but I wonder if they save time > and money or reduce headaches with the confusion they can cause. I agree in so far that we don't need four different ones, but I would't want have to do completely without them. And, trying to get to a 'one and only way' would probably come down to the same thing as trying to get all unix users to use the same shell and editor, and there have been threads about that... ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:51:27 GMT Organization: . Lines: 13 Message-ID: <35197468.11771320@news.innet.be> References: <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f79ip$j6v$2@client3.news.psi.net> <6f97n9$18e$1@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02a-194-7-47-115.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) told us > And I wish the 'Explorer' (not the two paned one, the one that opens up > when you double click on a folder) had an option to bring back ".." as a > folder item, since it would make keyboard only navigation *so* much > easier. Not so long ago, I changed the default to bring up the two paned one on my system. But did you ever try the backspace key in the single pane? (or: yet another example of how incomplete the online help is ;) ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-stock.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:51:28 GMT Organization: . Lines: 40 Message-ID: <351a7f5e.14577461@news.innet.be> References: <351abdda.8383513@news.innet.be> <6f9avo$f5t$4@irk.zetnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02a-194-7-47-115.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes lisard@zetnet.co.uk told us > On 1998-03-23 lucvdv@null.net(LucVanderVeken) said: > :Exactly what I mean. In the MS world, you can compare those to > :the contents of an MSDN CD: a huge pile of documentation where > :you'll find what you are looking for, alphabetically sorted in > :subgroups (books) per topic, in MS's case even delivered with a > :good search engine. > > yes, but in unix, all you need is a copy of vi and you can write your > own documentation. a copy of perl too and you have a search engine. > microsoft...? I didn't really mean that MS higher-level docs are better or worse than unix's. I meant that *both* are a jungle that you first have to find your way through before it is of any use. (IIRC, my next paragraph made that a little clearer). What's the use of a good search engine, when the documentation it's searching is a mess? (to you, probably not to a guru - but he doesn't need it). And that goes for both systems. Specific: you get either not what you were looking for, or you do get it in the middle of a list of hundreds of possible answers. It (the MSDN library) also comes with a tree-structured index, but often I'm searching in the wrong books or chapters. My fault, I guess ;) As for adding documentation: I either use word for mine, or put it in a simple text file. Win95 comes with its own search engines to search those. MSDN is changing to HTML format (just like the LDP for linux users). Now if they would only stop compressing it, it would become possible to add our own remarks and docs (at the cost of copying it from the CD to precious hard disk space). BTW, do you have any idea about how much documentation you can fit on a CD in compressed HTML? And it's full... ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-dc.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!158.43.192.17!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:51:29 GMT Organization: . Lines: 19 Message-ID: <351b8a3e.17362425@news.innet.be> References: <3519b642.6438789@news.innet.be> <6f9avf$f5t$3@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6fb7na$b9r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02a-194-7-47-115.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes jk@langley.softwright.co.uk told us > ObSheesh: Sheesh. What am I doing in an OS advocacy thread? And what's an OS > advocacy thread doing here? They are infesting usenet like a virus. And I think I'm a carrier, since I can never resist replying. > ObAFC: Writing self-modifiying code in C64 BASIC -- to allow the user to > input expressions, for example -- by printing the lines to the screen > followed by a RUN 100, poking a bunch of cursor-ups and newlines into the > keyboard buffer, and ENDing. Good fun. I vaguely remember doing something like that too, but I never used a C64. Did the PET allow it? Or maybe even before that - but I don't think it worked in FOCAL. Now *that* was a language! ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:51:31 GMT Organization: . Lines: 20 Message-ID: <351c8c41.17877609@news.innet.be> References: <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <351cc2cb.9648844@news.innet.be> <6f8faf$2qr@hexium.magnet> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02a-194-7-47-115.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes R!ch Teer told us > On 25 Mar 1998, Craig Pickering wrote: > > > BTW - How the heck does WINE emulate 95 at all? I thought 95 needed a full > > 386PM system to run? > > You've sort of answered your own question. If '95 does need a 386 PM > system to run, WINE must emulate one. AFAIK, there are not many '95 programs it can run, so its emulation is probably far from complete. Maybe it runs only the 16 bit apps, or only single-threaded or so? I don't know anything about the internals (I didn't even read much of the docs, just tried to launch Forte Agent, which didn't run, and Freecell, which ran), but I always thought wine just translates win API calls to X windows & linux calls. That must be one heck of a job, looking at the resulting speed. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!europa.clark.net!205.252.116.205!howland.erols.net!spring.edu.tw!feeder.seed.net.tw!news.seed.net.tw!!dski From: Dan Strychalski Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 26 Mar 1998 00:52:16 GMT Organization: Cameo Communications, Inc. Lines: 15 Message-ID: <6fc8s0$c95@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.72.104.4 Originator: dski@ Kirk Israel wrote -- > Sorry to hear your unhappy when you use computers where they keep moving > the arrow keys around. The 101-key-layout on PCs has been standardized > for years (save for those new annoying 'microsoft' keys, and despite the > silly capslock/ctrl switch) and my fingers know right where to go. Standardized? You got an ISO, ECMA, or ANSI number for that "standard"? My fingers know right where to go -- to command keystrokes based on real standards. Problem is, I am forced to use Windows at work, and in Windows those keystrokes are disabled when I need them most. One of the design goals of Windows was to make keyboarding an absolute, stinking horror. Dan Strychalski dski at cameonet, cameo, com, tw ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!psinntp!pubxfer.news.psi.net!abigail From: abigail@fnx.com (Abigail) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 26 Mar 1998 02:11:29 GMT Organization: FNX Ltd, Intelligent Risk Management Lines: 48 Message-ID: <6fcdgh$sfm$6@client2.news.psi.net> References: <6f9bm2$6fm$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fbtj4$huf$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6fbvvh$u8i$1@news3.tufts.edu> Reply-To: abigail@fnx.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.220.93.3 X-Date: MDCLXVIII September MCMXCIII X-HTTP: http://cthulhu.mandrake.net/%7Eabigail/ X-Revision: $Revision: 1.2 $ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 76 2E 82 7A 69 93 5F 97 AE 01 80 75 67 F3 45 D0 X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.3.2 UNIX) Kirk Is (kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu) wrote on MDCLXVII September MCMXCIII in : ++ lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: ++ ++ ++ : On 1998-03-24 kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu(KirkIs) said: ++ : :lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: ++ : ::perhaps you are the one speaking from ignorance? ++ ++ : :No. Points have been raised here that haven't been answered. ++ ++ : what points? ++ ++ That Microsoft has better look-and-feel than the vast majority of ++ Unix/X-windows and has great strength in being a defacto corporate ++ standard. So are high heels and ties. But I prefer wearing jeans. ++ : backwards compatible, you say? win95 still runs on *top* of dos, it's ++ ++ Jeezie petes, not this lame ass argument *again* ++ ++ : not a question of whether to support backward compatibility. linux was ++ : always technically superior, and it's getting to a point of aesthetic ++ : superiority too now. and you have made the point many times about ++ : "starting up a whole app, just to edit another file". sorry, that's what ++ ++ You missed the point there pal, it's that Windows provides a consistent ++ "Open File" dialog that's more universal than anything across all Unix/X Just the name, a "dialog". If I want to switch to another file while I'm editing, I don't want to engage in a dialog. I give the editor a command (yes, with command and filename completion (although switching to a different file are just one or two letter commands)). ++ apps. The "starting up a whole app" was actually a defense the anti-MS ++ people used (saying that unix users usually just invoke the filename from ++ the commandl ine.) Try again. No, you were looking for a uniform way. Putting files on the command line is your uniform way. Once the editor has started, they have different commands (and that's a *feature*). And yes, if you have different commands, they don't have a uniform way to switch files. Abigail ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!server3.netnews.ja.net!news.ox.ac.uk!not-for-mail From: Ben Hutchings Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 26 Mar 1998 02:23:59 -0000 Organization: Not organised Lines: 43 Sender: womble@eldritch.dyn.ml.org Message-ID: <6fce7v$5ju$1@eldritch.dyn.ml.org> References: <351cc2cb.9648844@news.innet.be> <6f8faf$2qr@hexium.magnet> NNTP-Posting-Host: max81.public.ox.ac.uk In article <6f8faf$2qr@hexium.magnet>, Craig Pickering wrote: >Luc Van der Veken (lucvdv@null.net) wrote: >: R!ch told us > >: > On 22 Mar 1998, Sergej Roytman wrote: >: > >: > > I've seen a product called Softwindows (or something like) on some of >: > > my company's SGIs. It's a 95 emulator, and comes with many of the >: > > standard apps. I've played with it a little, and have gotten it to >: > > run other, random programs compiled for 8x86, so I guess it emulates >: > > your Intel box from the ground up. >: > >: > That's right: SoftWIndoze emulates the peecee hardware, not '95. A >: > real copy of Winduhs runs in the emulation. > >: And Wine even emulates '95 in a limited way, and without that >: real copy of win. Not everything runs, and if you want speed >: you'd better boot the real Windoze, though. > >I've asked this before and gotten nowhere, but.. >I thought that WINE needed a live install of REAL Windoze on a FAT >partition, just like dosemu needs real, live IO/DOS/COMMAND files? It doesn't. Dosemu is not a DOS-emulator, but a PC virtual machine implementation designed to run DOS in. It requires a real copy of DOS or some other real-mode operating system. WINE is an (incomplete) emulation of the Windows APIs. It does not require a copy of Windows. >BTW - How the heck does WINE emulate 95 at all? I thought 95 needed a full >386PM system to run? As far as I know, WINE emulates very little of the newer Win32 API associated with Windows 95 and NT. Since WINE does not use a virtual machine, I don't see any fundamental problem in emulating these APIs. The real problem is the sheer bulk and complexity of the APIs - not only documented features but some undocumented features have to be emulated if software compatability is to be achieved. -- Ben Hutchings | ICOA User Rep election 1998: http://www.jms.org/election/ email/finger: m95bwh@ecs.ox.ac.uk | web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~worc0223/ If more than one person is responsible for a bug, no one is at fault. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail From: jk@langley.softwright.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 03:31:56 -0600 Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 40 Message-ID: <6fd794$3js$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <6f9bm2$6fm$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fbtj4$huf$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.129.107.143 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Mar 26 09:31:56 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.0; Windows NT) In article <6fbtj4$huf$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk>, lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: > > "starting up a whole app, just to edit another file". sorry, that's what > windows does. in fact, whether an application's text is shared or not is > up to the application. unix always shares text, as far as we know, just > as any multitasking system worth its salt would. Hmmm. Is it worth pointing out that, even if you have two or more instances of an excutable loaded in Win32, you only have *one* image of the executable in the VM (backed by the executable file on disk)? (To be fair, though, Win95 lacks WinNT's copy-on-write attribute for pages, which helps reduce the memory load further...) -- James Kew > > :: and microsoft software simply *isn't* any bloody good, > > :Oh right, that must be why the corporate culture is having such > :a rough time of it. > > well, the parts we program for are. in fact, they haven't upgraded from > win3.x yet. and certainly developers who have to experience developing > for microsoft platforms know it. > > which parts of the corporate world are you involved with? > -- > Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling > you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... > -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!spring.edu.tw!feeder.seed.net.tw!news.seed.net.tw!!dski From: Dan Strychalski Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 26 Mar 1998 07:54:37 GMT Organization: Cameo Commuications, Inc. Lines: 10 Message-ID: <6fd1jt$9va@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.72.104.4 Originator: dski@ In , Kirk Israel (kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu) wrote -- > There is the funky placement of the ctrl key on my keyboard, but > that's not really microsoft's fault. What makes you so sure of that? Dan Strychalski dski at cameonet, cameo, com, tw Apologies for the anti-spam devices and non-threading newsreader. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!news-lond.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!spring.edu.tw!feeder.seed.net.tw!news.seed.net.tw!!dski From: Dan Strychalski Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 26 Mar 1998 08:53:25 GMT Organization: Cameo Communications, Inc. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <6fd525$duf@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.72.104.4 Originator: dski@ Quoting "Abigail" (abigail@fnx.com), Luc Van der Veken (lucvdv@null.net) wrote in -- >> I'd love to have a keyboard without arrow keys, function keys, numpad, >> insert/del/home/end/page up/page down, etc. Just 5 rows. > > It's easier to pretend they are not there, than to try and use > them if they really aren't ;) It used to be easy to pretend they weren't there. Then developers started pretending the Ctrl key wasn't there. Now that pointless^H^H^H^Hing devices are ubiquitous, developers are pretending the idiot^H^H^H^H^H arrow, function, etc. keys aren't there. I, for one, dislike being treated like one of Pavlov's dogs. Dan Strychalski dski at cameonet, cameo, com, tw ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uow.edu.au!metro!unsw.edu.au!khchung From: khchung@maths.unsw.EDU.AU (Kin Hoong CHUNG) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 26 Mar 1998 10:39:34 GMT Organization: University of New South Wales Lines: 25 Message-ID: <6fdb96$18g$1@mirv.unsw.edu.au> References: <6f9bm2$6fm$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fbtj4$huf$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6fd794$3js$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: alpha.maths.unsw.edu.au X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] jk@langley.softwright.co.uk wrote: : In article <6fbtj4$huf$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk>, : lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: : > : > "starting up a whole app, just to edit another file". sorry, that's what : > windows does. in fact, whether an application's text is shared or not is : > up to the application. unix always shares text, as far as we know, just : > as any multitasking system worth its salt would. : Hmmm. Is it worth pointing out that, even if you have two or more instances : of an excutable loaded in Win32, you only have *one* image of the executable : in the VM (backed by the executable file on disk)? : This is part of Multics (if I remember correctly), and even OS9... Of course, OS9 did not have VM and very few other OS'es with VM force you to have a 2:1 ratio with real mem. Moreover, my limited experience with OS9 suggests that it would take effort to crash _all_ instances of an executable by crashing just one; of course, even that last trick is not new, as the Apple Macintosh has had that for many years (multifinder). Cheers, Kin Hoong ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newscore.univie.ac.at!fu-berlin.de!masternews.telia.net!newspost.telia.com!news.lejonet.se!not-for-mail From: Ingvar Mattsson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 26 Mar 1998 12:07:23 +0100 Organization: Foreningen Lejonet, Linkoping, Sweden Lines: 61 Message-ID: References: <6fb40v$kmm$3@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ns.idasys.se X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) writes: > > Ingvar Mattsson (ingvar@sunserv.idasys.se) wrote: > : kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) writes: > : > Ah, but Windows has some of the best all-keyboard support out there. > > : Where? Oh, you mean the windows-keys, that manage to steal necessary > : spacebar area? If that is yu idea of "all-keyboard support", we're > : *not* speaking the same language. [SNIP, proof of existing keybaord support] > I hate those keys too, but damn, how much "neccesary spacebar area" do you > require? Well, I don't use the middle of the spacebar, usually. I *do* use both ends, quite heavily (spacing with any close finger). So when sitting with a "windows-enabled" keyboard I tend to activate all sorts of funny behaviour (typing along, hitting a win-key instead of space, continue typing...). No, I usually don't look at the screen while writing. I tend to look out through the window or looking at, not registering, the screen. More zen-like that way. > : > "ctrl-o filename", almost every text editor out there for Windows. > : > > : > or better yet, > : > "alt-f o filename", again damn near universal. > > : Breaks whenever you move to a Win-installation in another language > : (not a problem for you, maybe, but depending on what machine I sit > : down at work, I get "swedish" or "english" windows installs). > > True enough. Though you could still hit 'alt' to get to the menu via the > keyboard, then use down arrow to move the menu selector down to the > "open" equivalent, then return to selct open. Yep, but then I have to think. With good keyboard support, I *know* what will happen when I press a key, without having to use my eyes. > : Except MS Outlook, for some *silly* reason. And not *all* visual cues > : for "hot-keys" are correct. Usually, a button with an underscored > : letter means "use ALT- to activate me", but sometimes it means > : "Use CTRL- to activate me". > > Hmmm. Yes, some MS apps don't follow the MS guidelines, which is dumb. > Don't know about the 'hot-keys' thing. Something I miss is a *fast* way to minimize windows in Windows. When on my X-termnal (like now), I just press Alt-F9 to minimize, Alt-F5 to normalize an iconized window, Alt-F8 to resize and Alt-F7 to move. If I'd prefer other keys, remap and restart window manager. In short, yes, you can use MS Windows with only a keyboard, but it is more pain than it is in the window system I'm used to. //Ingvar (still considers Windows' keyboard support to be a crutch, not something that's "fast and usable") -- Sysadmin, disgruntled, unpolite. I don't speak for my employer nor do they speak for me. Accept this and life will be easier. ingvar@idasys.se ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 26 Mar 1998 15:01:44 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 29 Message-ID: <6fdqko$fan$1@news3.tufts.edu> References: <6fc8s0$c95@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890924504 15703 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Dan Strychalski (dski@cameonet.cameo.com.twx) wrote: : Kirk Israel wrote -- : > Sorry to hear your unhappy when you use computers where they keep moving : > the arrow keys around. The 101-key-layout on PCs has been standardized : > for years (save for those new annoying 'microsoft' keys, and despite the : > silly capslock/ctrl switch) and my fingers know right where to go. : Standardized? You got an ISO, ECMA, or ANSI number for that "standard"? No, but save for these occasional gateway monstrosities, it's never different when I sit down at any PC. : My fingers know right where to go -- to command keystrokes based on real : standards. Problem is, I am forced to use Windows at work, and in Windows : those keystrokes are disabled when I need them most. One of the design : goals of Windows was to make keyboarding an absolute, stinking horror. Sorry you think so. (Which 'real standards' are you talking about, anyway?) For a windows editor, try "PFE" http://www.lancs.ac.uk/people/cpaap/pfe You can easily customize the keymapping to your heart's content. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com On The Longevity of Mass Storage devices: another poster pointed out that storage devices like clay tablets and cave walls have been shown to outlast entire civilizations, though difficult to mount or backup.--wjh@teleport.com ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 26 Mar 1998 15:08:02 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 33 Message-ID: <6fdr0i$fan$2@news3.tufts.edu> References: <6f9bm2$6fm$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fbtj4$huf$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6fbvvh$u8i$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fcdgh$sfm$6@client2.news.psi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890924882 15703 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Abigail (abigail@fnx.com) wrote: : Kirk Is (kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu) wrote on MDCLXVII September : ++ That Microsoft has better look-and-feel than the vast majority of : ++ Unix/X-windows and has great strength in being a defacto corporate : ++ standard. : So are high heels and ties. But I prefer wearing jeans. Well thank you for that pointless analogy. I wear jeans at work too. : ++ apps. The "starting up a whole app" was actually a defense the anti-MS : ++ people used (saying that unix users usually just invoke the filename from : ++ the commandl ine.) Try again. : No, you were looking for a uniform way. Putting files on the command line : is your uniform way. Once the editor has started, they have different : commands (and that's a *feature*). And yes, if you have different : commands, they don't have a uniform way to switch files. Switch files? You mean Ctrl-Tab, which works with every windows program that opens multiple files at once? Ok, I give up. I've explained that basic file manipulation should be and is consistent across all Windows apps, that there are some tasks every editor does esentially the same (by the very nature of a directory/file based OS) and that the interface for that should be the same. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com On The Longevity of Mass Storage devices: another poster pointed out that storage devices like clay tablets and cave walls have been shown to outlast entire civilizations, though difficult to mount or backup.--wjh@teleport.com ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed1.news.luth.se!luth.se!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.direct.ca!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!newsfeed.xcom.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 26 Mar 1998 15:10:15 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 20 Message-ID: <6fdr4n$fan$3@news3.tufts.edu> References: <6fd1jt$9va@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890925015 15703 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Dan Strychalski (dski@cameonet.cameo.com.twx) wrote: : In , Kirk Israel : (kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu) wrote -- : > There is the funky placement of the ctrl key on my keyboard, but : > that's not really microsoft's fault. : What makes you so sure of that? Well, I'm not sure, but considering Microsoft didn't into keyboard hardware 'til long after the ctrl-key placement was established in PC-land, it seemed like a reasonable assumption. Do you have evidence otherwise? Or is this just a microsoft being the root of all computer evil hypothesis? -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com On The Longevity of Mass Storage devices: another poster pointed out that storage devices like clay tablets and cave walls have been shown to outlast entire civilizations, though difficult to mount or backup.--wjh@teleport.com ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!newsfeed.xcom.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 26 Mar 1998 15:12:58 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 30 Message-ID: <6fdr9q$fan$4@news3.tufts.edu> References: <6fd525$duf@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890925178 15703 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Dan Strychalski (dski@cameonet.cameo.com.twx) wrote: : Quoting "Abigail" (abigail@fnx.com), Luc Van der Veken (lucvdv@null.net) : wrote in -- : >> I'd love to have a keyboard without arrow keys, function keys, numpad, : >> insert/del/home/end/page up/page down, etc. Just 5 rows. : > : > It's easier to pretend they are not there, than to try and use : > them if they really aren't ;) : It used to be easy to pretend they weren't there. : Then developers started pretending the Ctrl key wasn't there. Huh? : Now that pointless^H^H^H^Hing devices are ubiquitous, developers are : pretending the idiot^H^H^H^H^H arrow, function, etc. keys aren't there. : I, for one, dislike being treated like one of Pavlov's dogs. What system are you using? I hardly ever use the mouse in Win95 (which is why I like MS-IE better than Netscape for day to day use, at least with the 3.0 versions I use of both.) -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com On The Longevity of Mass Storage devices: another poster pointed out that storage devices like clay tablets and cave walls have been shown to outlast entire civilizations, though difficult to mount or backup.--wjh@teleport.com ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!europa.clark.net!207.172.3.49!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!newsfeed.xcom.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 26 Mar 1998 15:21:54 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 46 Message-ID: <6fdrqi$fan$5@news3.tufts.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890925714 15703 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Ingvar Mattsson (ingvar@sunserv.idasys.se) wrote: : kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) writes: [snip] : continue typing...). No, I usually don't look at the screen while : writing. I tend to look out through the window or looking at, not : registering, the screen. More zen-like that way. : > : Breaks whenever you move to a Win-installation in another language : > : (not a problem for you, maybe, but depending on what machine I sit : > : down at work, I get "swedish" or "english" windows installs). : > : Yep, but then I have to think. With good keyboard support, I *know* : what will happen when I press a key, without having to use my eyes. Good god, you switch between English and Swedish win installs without looking at the screen and then wonder why you have trouble. Well duh. So your definition of 'good keyboard support' is 'non-mnemonic', eh? : Something I miss is a *fast* way to minimize windows in Windows. When : on my X-termnal (like now), I just press Alt-F9 to minimize, Alt-F5 to : normalize an iconized window, Alt-F8 to resize and Alt-F7 to move. alt-space n to minimize alt-space s to resize alt-space m to move and alt-tabbing to the window normalizes an inconized window Not the smoothest to be fair, but I don't minimize that often, because I've grown to like the task bar. : If I'd prefer other keys, remap and restart window manager. I think mapping the 'microsoftflag' or 'context menu' key to 'alt-tab' would have made a lot more sense, but hey. : In short, yes, you can use MS Windows with only a keyboard, but it is : more pain than it is in the window system I'm used to. Seriously? What unix windowing system does it that much better? -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com On The Longevity of Mass Storage devices: another poster pointed out that storage devices like clay tablets and cave walls have been shown to outlast entire civilizations, though difficult to mount or backup.--wjh@teleport.com ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jhar@tardis.ed.ac.uk (Jonathan Harris) Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Organization: Very little References: <6f9bm2$6fm$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fbtj4$huf$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6fbvvh$u8i$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fcdgh$sfm$6@client2.news.psi.net> <6fdr0i$fan$2@news3.tufts.edu> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 X-No-Archive: yes Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 15:51:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: dhcp022.plc.psion.com Message-ID: <351a79f5.0@news.psion.com> Lines: 18 Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!bore.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.psion.com!jonathh In article <6fdr0i$fan$2@news3.tufts.edu>, kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) wrote: > Abigail (abigail@fnx.com) wrote: > : No, you were looking for a uniform way. Putting files on the command line > : is your uniform way. Once the editor has started, they have different > : commands (and that's a *feature*). And yes, if you have different > : commands, they don't have a uniform way to switch files. > > Switch files? You mean Ctrl-Tab, which works with every windows program > that opens multiple files at once? Apart from the odd program like Microsoft Word for Windows 95. Jonathan. -- Jonathan Harris | jhar@tardis.ed.ac.uk London, England | finger -l me for my PGP key ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 26 Mar 1998 16:35:55 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 14 Message-ID: <6fe05b$eq5$1@news3.tufts.edu> References: <6f9bm2$6fm$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fbtj4$huf$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6fbvvh$u8i$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fcdgh$sfm$6@client2.news.psi.net> <6fdr0i$fan$2@news3.tufts.edu> <351a79f5.0@news.psion.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890930155 15173 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Jonathan Harris (jhar@tardis.ed.ac.uk) wrote: : In article <6fdr0i$fan$2@news3.tufts.edu>, kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) wrote: : > Switch files? You mean Ctrl-Tab, which works with every windows program : > that opens multiple files at once? : Apart from the odd program like Microsoft Word for Windows 95. Jeez. That *is* stupid. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com Her eyes were cold and harsh, which made them tough to chew. --Roger Lee raj@netcom.com ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!sibyl.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!fu-berlin.de!unlisys!news.snafu.de!jnickelsen From: jnickelsen@acm.org (Juergen Nickelsen) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 18:30:11 +0100 Organization: Unlimited Surprise Systems, Berlin Lines: 12 Message-ID: <1d6ibsz.1civ3ox1jcq9e2N@n230h141.berlin.snafu.de> References: <34E46A46.148B6C99@mdisystems.com> <6c4jf9$k1k@world6.bellatlantic.net> <6c5gcv$862$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6ddvg9$3qv@hexium.magnet> <6ducn9$va7$1@pravda.tisip.no> <6e0mf0$rv1@news.seed.net.tw> <6e1r3v$lfh$10@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <1d5qzto.18z0t9a8aj9mwN@n227h094.berlin.snafu.de> <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f79ip$j6v$2@client3.news.psi.net> <6f8eig$sg7$2@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: n230h141.berlin.snafu.de X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.3 Ingvar Mattsson wrote: > Oh, you mean the windows-keys, that manage to steal necessary spacebar > area? I think these keys are a welcome opportunity to use more of X's 5 modifiers instead of only one. When I switch to a new job next week, and a "Windows" keyboard to go with the job, I plan to use these keys for window manager operations. -- Juergen Nickelsen ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!sibyl.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!fu-berlin.de!unlisys!news.snafu.de!jnickelsen From: jnickelsen@acm.org (Juergen Nickelsen) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 18:30:18 +0100 Organization: Unlimited Surprise Systems, Berlin Lines: 30 Message-ID: <1d6ic2c.1x4kmjl1l8mclcN@n230h141.berlin.snafu.de> References: <34E46A46.148B6C99@mdisystems.com> <6c4jf9$k1k@world6.bellatlantic.net> <6c5gcv$862$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6ddvg9$3qv@hexium.magnet> <6ducn9$va7$1@pravda.tisip.no> <6e0mf0$rv1@news.seed.net.tw> <6e1r3v$lfh$10@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <1d5qzto.18z0t9a8aj9mwN@n227h094.berlin.snafu.de> <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f79ip$j6v$2@client3.news.psi.net> <6f97n9$18e$1@news3.tufts.edu> <351e86b4.13252265@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: n230h141.berlin.snafu.de X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.3 Jaimie Vandenbergh wrote: > Oh, and to whoever first said "Scrollbars" - it's the ones that > require three mouse buttons that get on my wick. Mouse1 for pgup, > mouse2 for drag, mouse3 for pgdn. So leftclicking below the thumb will > send the thumb upwards. Which widget set is that, anyway? Athena? Yes. This might have been appealing in theory, but in practice I never really came to good terms with the Athena scrollbars. Extremely unusual, but quite interesting were the scrollbars of the debugger UPS: You could drag with button 2, but the vertical mouse movement did not command the amount to be scrolled, but the speed! Combined with pixelwise scrolling, you could scroll extremely fast over amounts of text, get slower to be able to recognize the text, get faster again, etc. Took some time to get used to it, but could be very efficient. For a mainstream, though, I think the Motif/MS/Nextstep/Tk style of scrollbars is quite good. > Personally, the only thing (apart from games) keeping me on Win32 is > Agent. If someone can lead me to an equally useful *off*line* > newsreader, I'll close off this NTFS partition for good. MacSOUP. Very well designed and implemented. Shareware, US$ 20. And you don't need an NTFS partition for it. :-) -- Juergen Nickelsen ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!RMplc!rmplc.co.uk!btgsch From: btgsch@rmplc.co.uk (ric) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 18:35:59 +0000 Organization: Those with six coloured blood Lines: 14 Message-ID: <1d6g0l5.ch5cue19q7hxcN@stingray-filt-21.rmplc.co.uk> References: <6c4jf9$k1k@world6.bellatlantic.net> <6c5gcv$862$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6ddvg9$3qv@hexium.magnet> <6ducn9$va7$1@pravda.tisip.no> <6e0mf0$rv1@news.seed.net.tw> <6e1r3v$lfh$10@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <1d5qzto.18z0t9a8aj9mwN@n227h094.berlin.snafu.de> <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f79ip$j6v$2@client3.news.psi.net> <6f8dpp$sg7$1@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: stingray-filt-21.rmplc.co.uk X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.3 Kirk Is wrote: > You don't use any editors that can open up a file? Never did > a ctrl-x ctrl-f in emacs? Started up that huge lisp-parsing > behemoth anew each time you need to edit something? Here's a dime kid, get a better computer :Apologies to S. Adams Seriously, my lesser linux box can pull up emacs in around 2 seconds, where lies the problem? Come to that, this mac manages it in maybe 4 seconds. -- 'ric ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news.idt.net!psinntp!pubxfer.news.psi.net!abigail From: abigail@fnx.com (Abigail) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 26 Mar 1998 19:09:10 GMT Organization: FNX Ltd, Intelligent Risk Management Lines: 43 Message-ID: <6fe94m$iod$1@client2.news.psi.net> References: <6f9bm2$6fm$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fbtj4$huf$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6fbvvh$u8i$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fcdgh$sfm$6@client2.news.psi.net> <6fdr0i$fan$2@news3.tufts.edu> Reply-To: abigail@fnx.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.220.93.3 X-Date: MDCLXVIII September MCMXCIII X-HTTP: http://cthulhu.mandrake.net/%7Eabigail/ X-Revision: $Revision: 1.2 $ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 76 2E 82 7A 69 93 5F 97 AE 01 80 75 67 F3 45 D0 X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.3.2 UNIX) Kirk Is (kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu) wrote on MDCLXVIII September MCMXCIII in : ++ Abigail (abigail@fnx.com) wrote: ++ : Kirk Is (kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu) wrote on MDCLXVII September ++ ++ : ++ That Microsoft has better look-and-feel than the vast majority of ++ : ++ Unix/X-windows and has great strength in being a defacto corporate ++ : ++ standard. ++ : So are high heels and ties. But I prefer wearing jeans. ++ ++ Well thank you for that pointless analogy. I wear jeans at work too. ++ ++ : ++ apps. The "starting up a whole app" was actually a defense the anti-MS ++ : ++ people used (saying that unix users usually just invoke the filename from ++ : ++ the commandl ine.) Try again. ++ ++ : No, you were looking for a uniform way. Putting files on the command line ++ : is your uniform way. Once the editor has started, they have different ++ : commands (and that's a *feature*). And yes, if you have different ++ : commands, they don't have a uniform way to switch files. ++ ++ Switch files? You mean Ctrl-Tab, which works with every windows program ++ that opens multiple files at once? Ctrl-Tab? You've just one way? My editor gives me the possibility to edit a file, (either new, or already in a buffer) (:e), redit a file (:e!), go to the next buffer (:n), the previous buffer (:p), switch to the previous visited file (__, :e# or ctrl-^), directly address a buffer (_ or _), or edit the file whose name appears under the cursor (ctrl-Xe). Of course, I am able to map any of those commands to any keystroke I want. Many commands, with the important ones availble with quick keystrokes. ++ Ok, I give up. I've explained that basic file manipulation should be and ++ is consistent across all Windows apps, that there are some tasks every ++ editor does esentially the same (by the very nature of a directory/file ++ based OS) and that the interface for that should be the same. And as I said, different interfaces are a *feature*. Abigail ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.idt.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 19:51:05 GMT Organization: . Lines: 52 Message-ID: <351bad21.5596942@news.innet.be> References: <6e0mf0$rv1@news.seed.net.tw> <6e1r3v$lfh$10@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <1d5qzto.18z0t9a8aj9mwN@n227h094.berlin.snafu.de> <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <1d6d9dl.18ngrvp1vd2kowN@n247-72.berlin.snafu.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02a-194-7-47-39.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes J.Hendrickx@maw.kun.nl (John Hendrickx) told us > In article <1d6d9dl.18ngrvp1vd2kowN@n247-72.berlin.snafu.de>, > jnickelsen@acm.org says... > > > > IMHO the fastest and most useful way of selecting a file/path name is > > file name completion as implemented by Bash and Emacs. Well, Microsoft > > tried that (in NT 4.0), but they fucked up even that one: (a) to switch > > it on, you have to set some obscure registry key, and (b) it does not > > complete the path name separator '\', so it is painful to use. Sigh. > > > Try "cmdedit", available from the /msdos/keyboards/ directory of your > friendly neighbourhood SIMTEL archive. The original version was vintage > 92, the latest updates are from 97. Provides aliases/shell functions and > command line completion. AND a cd command that lets you change drives > (look for that feature in Windows 2005). Or try 4DOS as a replacement for command.com (not only unix gives you a choiche between more than one shell :) It does completion, history, aliases, a MS-compatible cd plus its own cdd (change drive & dir), pushdir & popdir, memory-resident as well as 'normal' batch files, an enhanced batch command language, and all that in a smaller footprint than command.com (well, not really: it runs from high memory, UMB's, XMS and EMS, depending on what's available, but hardly uses any conventional memory) - and it's win95-aware (long filenames). Where microsoft doesn't do well, other people jump in. ===== BTW, anyone else received that e-mail today of someone who threatens to close down our usenet access if we don't stop posting in this thread? I wonder if we should just ignore him, or start looking out for our posts getting cancelled. If he said it because we're way off topic in a.f.c., he even has a point. But he didn't explicitly say *why* I had to stop, so I assume I just said something he didn't quite agree with :) If the first is true and you wrote it, please stop reading here. In the other case, I am happy to inform you that your mail is now back where it came from: /dev/null. -- The address in the "from" field is a real address, used as a spambox. Mail there may be read, or it may not. If you want to be sure, replace the domain by innet.be ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 26 Mar 1998 20:36:44 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 40 Message-ID: <6fee8s$ipm$1@news3.tufts.edu> References: <6f9bm2$6fm$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fbtj4$huf$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6fbvvh$u8i$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fcdgh$sfm$6@client2.news.psi.net> <6fdr0i$fan$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6fe94m$iod$1@client2.news.psi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890944604 19254 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Abigail (abigail@fnx.com) wrote: : Kirk Is (kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu) wrote on MDCLXVIII September : ++ Switch files? You mean Ctrl-Tab, which works with every windows program : ++ that opens multiple files at once? : Ctrl-Tab? You've just one way? My editor gives me the possibility to edit : a file, (either new, or already in a buffer) (:e), redit a file (:e!), : go to the next buffer (:n), the previous buffer (:p), switch to the : previous visited file (__, :e# or ctrl-^), directly address a buffer : (_ or _), or edit the file whose name appears under the : cursor (ctrl-Xe). Of course, I am able to map any of those commands : to any keystroke I want. No, there are tons of ways for my system as well, I just don't tend to waste the brain bandwidth on remembering them all. The fox knows many small things, the hedgehog knows one big thing, and I make a better hedgehog than a fox. : ++ Ok, I give up. I've explained that basic file manipulation should be and : ++ is consistent across all Windows apps, that there are some tasks every : ++ editor does esentially the same (by the very nature of a directory/file : ++ based OS) and that the interface for that should be the same. : And as I said, different interfaces are a *feature*. Yes I noticed-- again and again and again, usually with the same damn asterisks for emphasis-- but never a word of serious explanation. I could resort to saying "Having a consistent cross-app interface is a *feature*" but I choose to express my thoughts in a bit more depth than that. You, on the other hand, have not explained WHY someone should have to learn a different interface for the SAME DAMN TASK. (namely, basic file opening,saving, and switching.) -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com "Kid, you ever get a message from God? Something you just had to do? Something you just knew was gonna be the biggest thing in your life, ever?" "No..." "Me neither. But I'm working on it." ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil.Franklin.remove.this@ccw.ch Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 21:25:36 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 32 Message-ID: <351AB9C0.9765744A@ccw.ch> References: <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6f4uvk$b0$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f5odb$6v2$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6f657d$703$1@client3.news.psi.net> <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f6r8n$g7q$1@client3.news.psi.net> <6f6spt$7l9$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6f79ip$j6v$2@client3.news.psi.net> <6f97n9$18e$1@news3.tufts.edu> <351e86b4.13252265@news.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.27 i486) Jaimie Vandenbergh wrote: > > Oh, and to whoever first said "Scrollbars" - it's the ones that > require three mouse buttons that get on my wick. Mouse1 for pgup, > mouse2 for drag, mouse3 for pgdn. So leftclicking below the thumb will > send the thumb upwards. Which widget set is that, anyway? Athena? Yep, that is Athena. Try one of the many libXaw*.so replacements (assuming your Unix uses shared libraries). > Personally, the only thing (apart from games) keeping me on Win32 is > Agent. If someone can lead me to an equally useful *off*line* > newsreader, I'll close off this NTFS partition for good. Exactly what I use here, it is called INN :-) OK, back to earth: I installed an own News server on my 486. Then fetch the NGs I like with "suck". After read with the newsreader of my choice. And with lots of disk space and expire switched off I can search any newsgroup I read here locally. Isn't Unix modularity a nice thing! If you think INN is too intimidating, some colleagues swear on Leafnode for this purpose. -- private: Neil.Franklin.remove.this@ccw.ch http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ office: franklin.remove.this@arch.ethz.ch http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ Can a Microsoft allergy be claimed on job health insurence? ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!surfnet.nl!barba.uci.kun.nl!not-for-mail From: J.Hendrickx@maw.kun.nl (John Hendrickx) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 23:00:48 +0100 Organization: University of Nijmegen Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <6f9bm2$6fm$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fbtj4$huf$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6fbvvh$u8i$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fcdgh$sfm$6@client2.news.psi.net> <6fdr0i$fan$2@news3.tufts.edu> <351a79f5.0@news.psion.com> <6fe05b$eq5$1@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ib107.extern.kun.nl X-Newsreader: Anawave Gravity v2.00 In article <6fe05b$eq5$1@news3.tufts.edu>, kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu says... > Jonathan Harris (jhar@tardis.ed.ac.uk) wrote: > : In article <6fdr0i$fan$2@news3.tufts.edu>, kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) wrote: > : > Switch files? You mean Ctrl-Tab, which works with every windows program > : > that opens multiple files at once? > > : Apart from the odd program like Microsoft Word for Windows 95. > > Jeez. That *is* stupid. > Actually, Ctrl-F6 is the standard way of switching windows within an application. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 26 Mar 1998 23:42:13 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 17 Message-ID: <6fep4l$i09$1@news3.tufts.edu> References: <6fdrqi$fan$5@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 890955733 18441 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Peter Kerr (p.kerr@auckland.ac.nz) wrote: : kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) wrote: : > Good god, you switch between English and Swedish win installs without : > looking at the screen and then wonder why you have trouble. Well duh. : > So your definition of 'good keyboard support' is 'non-mnemonic', eh? : > : Mac don't have that trouble, switch between any of a dozen or more : language/culture specific environments at the click of a control panel... But don't the menus have words in that language? If so you have the same trouble as PCs. PCs offer accelrators that maybe you can't use, but you can always click on a menu, same as a mac. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com "When your phone don't ring, it'll be me." --George Jones ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!psinntp!pubxfer.news.psi.net!abigail From: abigail@fnx.com (Abigail) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 27 Mar 1998 01:20:39 GMT Organization: FNX Ltd, Intelligent Risk Management Lines: 28 Message-ID: <6feut7$kvn$1@client3.news.psi.net> References: <6f9bm2$6fm$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fbtj4$huf$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6fbvvh$u8i$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fcdgh$sfm$6@client2.news.psi.net> <6fdr0i$fan$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6fe94m$iod$1@client2.news.psi.net> <6fee8s$ipm$1@news3.tufts.edu> Reply-To: abigail@fnx.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.220.93.3 X-Date: MDCLXIX September MCMXCIII X-HTTP: http://cthulhu.mandrake.net/%7Eabigail/ X-Revision: $Revision: 1.2 $ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 76 2E 82 7A 69 93 5F 97 AE 01 80 75 67 F3 45 D0 X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.3.2 UNIX) Kirk Is (kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu) wrote on MDCLXVIII September MCMXCIII in : ++ ++ ++ Yes I noticed-- again and again and again, usually with the same ++ damn asterisks for emphasis-- but never a word of serious explanation. ++ I could resort to saying "Having a consistent cross-app interface is a ++ *feature*" but I choose to express my thoughts in a bit more depth than ++ that. You, on the other hand, have not explained WHY someone should have ++ to learn a different interface for the SAME DAMN TASK. (namely, basic file ++ opening,saving, and switching.) Uhm, perhaps for the same reason there are different OSses, different editors, different cars, different fast food chains, and different flavours of ice cream. Emacs has a certain philosophy. My editor (vile: a vi spin-off) has a certain philosophy. The emacs way of selecting a different file fits in its philosophy. My editors way of doing that fits in its philosophy. The different philosophies don't match. A common interface would either not fit in the emacs way, not fit in the vile way, or not fit in both. A common interface on the expense of internal inconsistancy? Rather not. Abigail ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!newsfeed.internetmci.com!203.97.37.6!clear.net.nz!auckland.ac.nz!p.kerr From: p.kerr@auckland.ac.nz (Peter Kerr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 10:28:08 +1200 Organization: School of Music University of Auckland Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <6fdrqi$fan$5@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: p.kerr.mus.auckland.ac.nz X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b6 kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) wrote: > Good god, you switch between English and Swedish win installs without > looking at the screen and then wonder why you have trouble. Well duh. > So your definition of 'good keyboard support' is 'non-mnemonic', eh? > Mac don't have that trouble, switch between any of a dozen or more language/culture specific environments at the click of a control panel... -- Peter Kerr bodger School of Music chandler University of Auckland NZ neo-Luddite ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!newsfeed.internetmci.com!203.97.37.6!clear.net.nz!auckland.ac.nz!p.kerr From: p.kerr@auckland.ac.nz (Peter Kerr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 10:33:19 +1200 Organization: School of Music University of Auckland Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <6f9bm2$6fm$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fbtj4$huf$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6fbvvh$u8i$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fc1r1$k5f@umbc8.umbc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: p.kerr.mus.auckland.ac.nz X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b6 In article <6fc1r1$k5f@umbc8.umbc.edu>, bhurle1@umbc.edu (hurley bryan) wrote: > Win95 is on top of DOS, at least Caldera, makers of OpenDOS, claim. > Jumping on the monoploy bandwagon, they claimed that MS has an illegal > monopoly on the DOS market. They sucessfully removed MSDOS from under > Win95 and substituted OpenDOS, and not only did it work, but there was a > slight speed improvement too. I would like that install... I'd like to see it too. As a Mac geek with the unfortunate experience last week of having to install a DSP card on a Win95 box, together with software ported from u**x, I was intrigued when having to set paths, config.sys, etc, that Win95 appeared to be running a DOS emulator. Does that DOS prompt really reach down to the underlying DOS? It wouldn't surprise me if MS had found it easier to run another app called DOS on top of Win95... -- Peter Kerr bodger School of Music chandler University of Auckland NZ neo-Luddite ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail From: jourgamund@hotmail.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:02:29 -0600 Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 86 Message-ID: <6fgm1l$4q0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f9av3$f5t$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6f9bm2$6fm$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fb3kb$kmm$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6fba08$n60$1@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.38.209.222 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Mar 27 17:02:29 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.03 [en] (WinNT; I ;Nav) kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) wrote: > R!ch Teer (richardt@uk.sun.com) wrote: > : > The games community demanded, for instance. And I like the feature > : > frankly, it's why I haven't switched to NT on my desktop. > : Fair point, but what's wrong with having a dual boot machine: DOS > : for the games, and Winduhs for "work"? > Annoying to balance two sets of drivers, besides the pain-in-the-butt-ness > of rebooting. But then again the majority of games *never* work under NT - meaning you *have* to have a dual boot system... >(Yes, when you load a Windows system up with a ton of > doodads, it might require rebooting every month or so. YMMV.) As oppose to, eg a Solaris system which went two years without a reboot - and that was only because I had to power it off! > : I use Winduhs > : these days, to imply that Windows is only of use to Induhviduals > : (see the Dilbert zone for more info about Induhviduals), as those > : more discerning would do the Right Thing and use an alternative. > I disagree. It's fun and compatible with everyone else at work. 2 Oxymorons: 1) Windows and Fun 2) Windows and Compatible > There's > no compelling reason to switch, otherwise I would-- it's not as if I don't > have the knowledge resources to install an alternative. Getting the best out of your hardware? Not having to wait 3 minutes every time you switch tasks before you can do anything. > : Mmm. As a rule, "friendly" means "what I know". I find Winduhs > : distinctly unfriendly, as I don't think the way it wants me to. > : Ditto for Macs. I find UNIX friendly, as over the years I've > : started thinking the UNIX way (especially with modern GUI frontends). > I don't think that the learning curve for Macs and PCs (starting from > ground zero, not for someone like you) is not as steep as for Unix with > X-Windows. The gap is closing, but it would be much tougher to find a > modern affordable office-like suite for any other OS. It took me less than 1/2 hour to learn Unix CLI, about 1 minute to work my way around VUE - large learning curve; Where? And what about other OS's - like Risc OS -more usuable than Windows and more friendly... > : Compatible? If one doesn't need to exchange documents with people > : outside of one's company, > Which comes up. There are many generic document types you can use - like the best one of all - ASCII. (And MS even cocks that one up!) [compatibility] > Also, what about when you switch companies? Chances are good for a > coorporate emplyee that they'll be going from one MS desktop to another, > which makes the switch over easier for them. So? The basic metaphor behind *any* word processor is the same - the rest is just visual sugar. In theory, anybody with an average intellegence should be able to use *any* word processor after about 2 mins of familisation. > : But is Word '97 faster than Word 2, on the same hardware? > Probably not, but it's A. Fast enough on a not-that-close-to-leading-edge > system A. hangs up your system every time you type anything... > B. More feature rich, including features I use all the time > (realtime spellchecking, context sensitive menus, corrections of > abbreviations or commonly mistyped words.) Strange; those are the features I *always* turn off, I hate the idea that the computer thinks that it knows what I want to write better than I do. Then again I could probably fit all those features into a noddy WP in less than about 20k of binary! dave -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!news.iastate.edu!rhawkins From: rhawkins@iastate.edu (Rick Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 27 Mar 1998 16:30:38 GMT Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa USA Lines: 33 Message-ID: <6fgk7e$h4k$1@news.iastate.edu> References: <6fd1jt$9va@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: pv2086.vincent.iastate.edu In article <6fd1jt$9va@news.seed.net.tw>, Dan Strychalski wrote: >In , Kirk Israel >(kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu) wrote -- > >> There is the funky placement of the ctrl key on my keyboard, but >> that's not really microsoft's fault. > >What makes you so sure of that? It happened back when microsoft was the good guy who was going to save us from ibm. IBM did it. Well, it came from ibm, at least. One night a lazy worker rebooted one of the mainframes in an ibm manufacturing facility without drawing a pentium around it, which should always be done before running windows or otherwi\se trafficcing with demons. Unfortuneately, this machine was crosscompilinging an early windows test suite, and the demon got out. Then, to mock God and man, it changed the template in the machine so that the control key was sent into exile, a crude parody of man being thrown from the garden. NEvermore would control be next to a, where it had been lovingly placed. It would always longingly search for this spot, and always fail. :) -- R E HAWKINS rhawkins@iastate.edu These opinions will not be those of ISU until they pay my retainer. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 27 Mar 1998 18:50:10 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 114 Message-ID: <6fgsd2$6se$1@news3.tufts.edu> References: <3516a6b4.2456007@news.innet.be> <6f9av3$f5t$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6f9bm2$6fm$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fb3kb$kmm$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6fba08$n60$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fgm1l$4q0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 891024610 7054 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] jourgamund@hotmail.com wrote: : kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) wrote: : >(Yes, when you load a Windows system up with a ton of : > doodads, it might require rebooting every month or so. YMMV.) : As oppose to, eg a Solaris system which went two years without a reboot - and : that was only because I had to power it off! Yeah, but it's not like a big deal on most Win95 systems. I don't need to get into uptime pissing contests. : > I disagree. It's fun and compatible with everyone else at work. : 2 Oxymorons: : 1) Windows and Fun : 2) Windows and Compatible Whatever. I find it both, from tooling in VB to the pretty dang nice Viusal IDE to tons of shareware and games (the fun) and then being able to read the MS97 documents sent to me by my company. Statements like your "2 Oxymorons" are worthless without an argument. : > There's : > no compelling reason to switch, otherwise I would-- it's not as if I don't : > have the knowledge resources to install an alternative. : Getting the best out of your hardware? Not having to wait 3 minutes every : time you switch tasks before you can do anything. If I had that problem I might switch. I don't. I've toyed with Linux (albeit around 93 or 4) and it's just not worth it. The only reason I might go dual-boot is to play Koules. : > I don't think that the learning curve for Macs and PCs (starting from : > ground zero, not for someone like you) is not as steep as for Unix with : > X-Windows. The gap is closing, but it would be much tougher to find a : > modern affordable office-like suite for any other OS. : It took me less than 1/2 hour to learn Unix CLI, about 1 minute to work : my way around VUE - large learning curve; Where? Yes, YOU TOO can be a sysadmin in 31 minutes! I wish I had you there when configuring X-windows in the bad old days of 93. : And what about other OS's - like Risc OS -more usuable than Windows and more : friendly... Because I actually want to DO THINGS on my PC. This requires APPS. Perferably these apps should be 100% compatible with what the rest of my company users. The nicest OS in the world is pointless if it doesn't run the software compatible withe software I want to run. : > : Compatible? If one doesn't need to exchange documents with people : > : outside of one's company, : > Which comes up. : There are many generic document types you can use - like the best one of all : - ASCII. (And MS even cocks that one up!) Hey, I like ascii, but understand that other peole want *italics* and _underline_ for real. And if people sent me nothing but Ascii, you'd have a point. But they don't, and I'm not going to be a martyr to try to change them. : [compatibility] : > Also, what about when you switch companies? Chances are good for a : > coorporate emplyee that they'll be going from one MS desktop to another, : > which makes the switch over easier for them. : So? The basic metaphor behind *any* word processor is the same - the rest is : just visual sugar. In theory, anybody with an average intellegence should be : able to use *any* word processor after about 2 mins of familisation. Of course if i just want to type words, but I all the shortcuts get lost when you switch, and those shortcuts are important. : > : But is Word '97 faster than Word 2, on the same hardware? : > Probably not, but it's A. Fast enough on a not-that-close-to-leading-edge : > system : A. hangs up your system every time you type anything... What the HELL are you talking about? Definately not MY system. : > B. More feature rich, including features I use all the time : > (realtime spellchecking, context sensitive menus, corrections of : > abbreviations or commonly mistyped words.) : Strange; those are the features I *always* turn off, I hate the idea that : the computer thinks that it knows what I want to write better than I do. Yeah, those context sensitive menus are a real bear. So are those tooltips. I'm still undecided about whether I like the realtime spellcheck (disrupts the flow of my typing) but correcting mistakes like TWo concurrent capitals? A Godsend. : Then again I could probably fit all those features into a noddy WP in less : than about 20k of binary! Bully for you. I'm sure someone else has already and not changed the world one iota. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com "Tough times make monkeys eat red peppers." --Frank Costello ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!nyd.news.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!news.eecs.umich.edu!news.bu.edu!acs3.bu.edu!aturley From: aturley@bu.edu (Andrew Turley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 27 Mar 1998 19:41:54 GMT Organization: Boston University Lines: 80 Message-ID: <6fgve2$24g$1@news1.bu.edu> References: <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> Reply-To: aturley@remove_me.bu.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: acs3.bu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Luc Van der Veken (lucvdv@null.net) wrote: : mtpins@visi.com (Michael T Pins) told us : > I've never understood this "user-friendly" argument. Workstations have : > always been more user-friendly than whatever M$ is foisting on people that : > year. Currently, given the choice between CDE and Win95, CDE is the clear : > winner. (How do you log out of a Win95 box? Start-Shutdown. This is : > intuitive???) : [Disclaimer: I don't know CDE, just plain X on Linux] : This must be the 100th time that I read that "intuitive" argument : about logging out. : If you know a more intuitive way to do it, please tell us. Um . . . maybe a logout menu item? : In the mean time, don't look at "Start" as "start a program", but : as a central place where you start doing something (no matter : what). Contrary to unix, win95's UI isn't program oriented, it's : task oriented - you don't have to know what exact app is doing : any job. Or call it object oriented: you can start an app by : starting the "document" (read data file) it's supposed to work : with, without knowing which app that is. I will grant that this does make things easier at first, but after you get used to the unix way, it is just as easy. : Along the same line, "Shutdown" isn't only shut down the : computer, but also shut down the current session. "Shutdown" is usually thought of as a bad thing. Nobody wants to be the guy or gal who turned the computer off when they were not supposed to. Anyone who spends time with computer users knows that this will get them in a great deal of trouble. The idea of "shutting down" the current session seems pretty strange to me, but I suppose if you can remember it then it is helpful. : And then, MS *have* moved the logout out of the shutdown corner: : it's "Start / log off" now. OK, that is more intutive. : There's a gui, alright, but is it user friendly? : With scroll bars that behave differently in just about every : other program, just to take an example? I have not run into this problem, but maybe I just have not been paying attention. : What I miss the most is that possibility when the system asks you : for a filename, to go browsing for it if you don't remember the : exact name or directory. In X you have to know them all by heart, : or else start a file manager, locate the file and then *still* : enter its full path manually in the other program's box. OK, this is a terrible arguement. If you forget where something is, open an xterm. Hit tab and you should (if you have the automatic completion turned on) get a list of files and directories in the current dirrectory. Type cd and use tab and type in a few letters and you will eventually get to the directory and file. Then cut and paste from the xterm into the place in the program where you need the info. Again, once you get used to it it becomes easier than windows IMHO. : Then there's a lot of people complaining about the stupidity of : online help in win95: partly I agree, I don't ever look at it : either *because I already know the system*. : I wish there was the same level of online help in *n*x, telling : nothing more than the lowest basics for newbies like me, to be : used only until I know the system. Good point. Unfortunately the assumtion is either that you will learn unix from somebody else, or you will buy a book. Fortunately, there seem to be more and more places on the web that can help you get started. Unix has a steep learning curve, but once you get past the rough stuff, you will never want to go back to M$. andy -- >84*>:#v_55+"ude.ub@yelruta">:#,_@>188*+>\02p\12p\:22p#v_$ 55+,1- v ^ 0 v +1\ _^#-+*< >22g02g*"_@"*-!1- #v_v> >:>::3g: ,\188 ^^ -1\g21\g22 References: <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <35190909.5838293@news.innet.be> <6fgve2$24g$1@news1.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 891029468 26954 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Andrew Turley (aturley@bu.edu) wrote: : I will grant that this does make things easier at first, but after you get : used to the unix way, it is just as easy. The document model is also more object oriented, and is arguably much closer to "the way it should be done" : or gal who turned the computer off when they were not supposed to. Anyone who : spends time with computer users knows that this will get them in a great deal : of trouble. The idea of "shutting down" the current session seems pretty : strange to me, but I suppose if you can remember it then it is helpful. Only oldtimers fear shutdown. Non-oldtimers are used to shutting down appliances all the time. : Good point. Unfortunately the assumtion is either that you will learn unix : from somebody else, or you will buy a book. Fortunately, there seem to be Yes, I was lucky enough to start out in a school environment for Unix. : more and more places on the web that can help you get started. Unix has a : steep learning curve, but once you get past the rough stuff, you will never : want to go back to M$. Wrong, at least in some cases. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com "Dreams are like sausages-- small, and, uh, full of good stuff and- uh- watch out, some are really spicy! And- oh, never mind." ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!btnet-peer!btnet-feed1!btnet!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 27 Mar 1998 20:15:50 GMT Lines: 38 Message-ID: <6fh1dm$nsg$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <351a7f5e.14577461@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-156.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X On 1998-03-25 lucvdv@null.net(LucVanderVeken) said: :What's the use of a good search engine, when the documentation :it's searching is a mess? (to you, probably not to a guru - but :he doesn't need it). And that goes for both systems. true. however, if you've forgotten the syntax of a particular keyword that you know already, unix wins by a mile. since we more commonly find ourselves in that situation, our preference is natural. :> and we also appreciate the ability to document our own programs using the same mechanisms as the standard kit uses with only a text editor. :It (the MSDN library) also comes with a tree-structured index, :but often I'm searching in the wrong books or chapters. My fault, :I guess ;) the msdn library also (currently) comes with a proprietary viewer, which is a real pain in the arse, especially given its low level of customisability. :MSDN is changing to HTML format (just like the LDP for linux :users). Now if they would only stop compressing it, it would :become possible to add our own remarks and docs (at the cost of :copying it from the CD to precious hard disk space). and use a different viewer, and write it using a text editor. html would work well for ms helpfiles. :BTW, do you have any idea about how much documentation you can :fit on a CD in compressed HTML? And it's full... at a guess - assuming 33% compression of text and maybe tokenised tags? about 1.5-2 Gb. that's a *lot* of hypertext - they'd better have a good search engine in there too. -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!btnet-peer!btnet-feed1!btnet!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 27 Mar 1998 20:16:09 GMT Lines: 15 Message-ID: <6fh1e9$nsg$5@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <351b8a3e.17362425@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-156.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X On 1998-03-25 lucvdv@null.net(LucVanderVeken) said: :> ObSheesh: Sheesh. What am I doing in an OS advocacy thread? And :>what's an OS advocacy thread doing here? :They are infesting usenet like a virus. And I think I'm a :carrier, since I can never resist replying. finally we have realised much the same thing. and we've decided - it stops here. we'll confine ourselves to ms-slagging in the privacy of our home, our office and other people's mailboxes. :> -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 27 Mar 1998 21:15:20 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 15 Message-ID: <6fh4t8$9sm$1@news3.tufts.edu> References: <351a7f5e.14577461@news.innet.be> <6fh1dm$nsg$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 891033320 10134 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: : true. however, if you've forgotten the syntax of a particular keyword : that you know already, unix wins by a mile. since we more commonly find : ourselves in that situation, our preference is natural. :> and we also : appreciate the ability to document our own programs using the same : mechanisms as the standard kit uses with only a text editor. Can you do that? Then why does man commandname > stored.copy produce such bizarre ctrl character results? -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com "Will we ever see each other again?" "I don't know. Probably no." --Rob et al. Summer 1995 ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!darla.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? References: <351a7f5e.14577461@news.innet.be> <6fh1dm$nsg$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6fh4t8$9sm$1@news3.tufts.edu> Organization: Plethora . Net - More Net, Less Spam! X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test62 (21 February 1998) From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Lines: 33 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 22:05:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: guild.plethora.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 16:05:44 CST In article <6fh4t8$9sm$1@news3.tufts.edu>, Kirk Is wrote: >: true. however, if you've forgotten the syntax of a particular keyword >: that you know already, unix wins by a mile. since we more commonly find >: ourselves in that situation, our preference is natural. :> and we also >: appreciate the ability to document our own programs using the same >: mechanisms as the standard kit uses with only a text editor. >Can you do that? Then why does man commandname > stored.copy produce such >bizarre ctrl character results? 'man foo' doesn't print the thing you write up. I might have text that says .SH NAME unsort \- unsort input or files and man might say N^HNA^HAM^HME^HE unsort - unsort input or files and 'man | col -b' might say NAME unsort - unsort input or files But I can edit the *real* man page with vi - and yet, if I want to send it to a printer, I get nice fonts, bold, italic, and the like. -s -- Copyright '98, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! Not speaking for my employer. Questions on C/Unix? Send mail for help. Visit my new ISP --- More Net, Less Spam! ###### ath: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!btnet-peer!btnet-feed1!btnet!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 27 Mar 1998 22:38:17 GMT Lines: 43 Message-ID: <6fh9op$o3q$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <351bad21.5596942@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-006.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X On 1998-03-26 lucvdv@null.net(LucVanderVeken) said: :It does completion, history, aliases, a MS-compatible cd plus its :own cdd (change drive & dir), pushdir & popdir, memory-resident :as well as 'normal' batch files, an enhanced batch command :language, and all that in a smaller footprint than command.com :(well, not really: it runs from high memory, UMB's, XMS and EMS, :depending on what's available, but hardly uses any conventional :memory) - and it's win95-aware (long filenames). :Where microsoft doesn't do well, other people jump in. nor is it the only one - there are a few command.com replacements around, it's just that 4dos seized the market (norton even borrowed it for ndos). but we thought that 4dos would be incorporated into msdos at some point. whatever happened to that idea? win95, no doubt... :BTW, anyone else received that e-mail today of someone who :threatens to close down our usenet access if we don't stop :posting in this thread? hmm. that's (a) highly unpleasant, (b) impossible. :I wonder if we should just ignore him, or start looking out for :our posts getting cancelled. complain to his sysop. that's harrassment. :If he said it because we're way off topic in a.f.c., he even has :a point. But he didn't explicitly say *why* I had to stop, so I :assume I just said something he didn't quite agree with :) a.f.c isn't moderated; even if he's a sysop, he'd still only be able to cancel them on his net. whatever the post, an attack on free speech is intolerable. -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ###### ath: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!btnet-peer!btnet-feed1!btnet!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 27 Mar 1998 22:38:17 GMT Lines: 43 Message-ID: <6fh9op$o3q$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <351bad21.5596942@news.innet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-006.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X On 1998-03-26 lucvdv@null.net(LucVanderVeken) said: :It does completion, history, aliases, a MS-compatible cd plus its :own cdd (change drive & dir), pushdir & popdir, memory-resident :as well as 'normal' batch files, an enhanced batch command :language, and all that in a smaller footprint than command.com :(well, not really: it runs from high memory, UMB's, XMS and EMS, :depending on what's available, but hardly uses any conventional :memory) - and it's win95-aware (long filenames). :Where microsoft doesn't do well, other people jump in. nor is it the only one - there are a few command.com replacements around, it's just that 4dos seized the market (norton even borrowed it for ndos). but we thought that 4dos would be incorporated into msdos at some point. whatever happened to that idea? win95, no doubt... :BTW, anyone else received that e-mail today of someone who :threatens to close down our usenet access if we don't stop :posting in this thread? hmm. that's (a) highly unpleasant, (b) impossible. :I wonder if we should just ignore him, or start looking out for :our posts getting cancelled. complain to his sysop. that's harrassment. :If he said it because we're way off topic in a.f.c., he even has :a point. But he didn't explicitly say *why* I had to stop, so I :assume I just said something he didn't quite agree with :) a.f.c isn't moderated; even if he's a sysop, he'd still only be able to cancel them on his net. whatever the post, an attack on free speech is intolerable. -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!feeder.qis.net!btnet-peer!btnet-feed1!btnet!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 27 Mar 1998 22:38:36 GMT Lines: 14 Message-ID: <6fh9pc$o3q$3@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <6fgk7e$h4k$1@news.iastate.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-006.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X On 1998-03-27 rhawkins@iastate.edu(RickHawkins) said: :It happened back when microsoft was the good guy who was going to :save us from ibm. IBM did it. Well, it came from ibm, at least. :One night a lazy worker rebooted one of the mainframes in an ibm :manufacturing facility without drawing a pentium around it, which don't you mean pentagram? ;> (apologies if we just trampled all over your humour.) -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!btnet-peer!btnet-feed1!btnet!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 27 Mar 1998 22:38:47 GMT Lines: 35 Message-ID: <6fh9pn$o3q$4@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <6fc06k$u8i$2@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-006.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X On 1998-03-25 kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu(KirkIs) said: :lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: :: what happens when you double-click on a c file? :Well, in Windows-land, you'd probably have it open up the IDE :you're using for C. ok, perhaps a c file was a poor choice. but what we were trying to illustrate is that there is a basic problem with making an os "object-oriented" in that sense - an object will usually only have one class, and you may want to do more than one thing with a file (for a c file, you might want to edit it, compile it, run it through lint - does msvc have lint? - etc). so we'd rather not be double clicking on some files at all. (on the other hand, with a text file, there's an obvious action you want.) :If you really want to, you could probably add :a "compile" option to the context (right-mouse-button) menu, or :mayube even make 'compile' the default action for the double click. yes, but you usually want to do both with equal regularity. :The no-file-dialog system could work, I just don't think it's a :great idea. one thought. perhaps the folder-file metaphor is not the best these days. it's done that way, it seems, because it's always been done that way - has anyone actually done any research into alternative ways of organising a file system? and perhaps should one be discovered, a no-file-dialog system could become more practical. -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!sibyl.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!ais.net!darla.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? References: <6fc06k$u8i$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6fh9pn$o3q$4@irk.zetnet.co.uk> Organization: Plethora . Net - More Net, Less Spam! X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test62 (21 February 1998) From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Lines: 19 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 00:33:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: guild.plethora.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 18:33:27 CST In article <6fh9pn$o3q$4@irk.zetnet.co.uk>, wrote: >(on the other hand, with a text file, there's an obvious >action you want.) No, there isn't. When I have a text file, typically I want to: 1. ask whether or not it contains a given string. 2. edit it. 3. print it. When I have a program, I may well want to: 1. ask whether or not it contains a given string. 2. edit it. 3. print it. 4. run it. -s -- Copyright '98, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! Not speaking for my employer. Questions on C/Unix? Send mail for help. Visit my new ISP --- More Net, Less Spam! ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!sibyl.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ais.net!darla.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? References: <351bad21.5596942@news.innet.be> <6fh9op$o3q$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> Organization: Plethora . Net - More Net, Less Spam! X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test62 (21 February 1998) From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Lines: 21 Message-ID: <%AXS.107$yg2.507410@ptah.visi.com> Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 00:35:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: guild.plethora.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 18:35:07 CST In article <6fh9op$o3q$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk>, wrote: >a.f.c isn't moderated; even if he's a sysop, he'd still only be able to >cancel them on his net. Untrue; unlike news.admin, this is not covered by a resurrector bot, anyone can cancel anything. >whatever the post, an attack on free speech is intolerable. This isn't strictly a Free Speach (tm) issue, but in general, yes, gratuitous cancels are probably bad. BI>=20, or binaries, sure, but not just useless threads. -s -- Copyright '98, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! Not speaking for my employer. Questions on C/Unix? Send mail for help. Visit my new ISP --- More Net, Less Spam! ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uow.edu.au!metro!unsw.edu.au!khchung From: khchung@maths.unsw.EDU.AU (Kin Hoong CHUNG) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 28 Mar 1998 03:59:07 GMT Organization: University of New South Wales Lines: 19 Message-ID: <6fhsib$a2g$2@mirv.unsw.edu.au> References: <351bad21.5596942@news.innet.be> <6fh9op$o3q$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <%AXS.107$yg2.507410@ptah.visi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: alpha.maths.unsw.edu.au X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Peter Seebach (seebs@plethora.net) wrote: : In article <6fh9op$o3q$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk>, wrote: : >a.f.c isn't moderated; even if he's a sysop, he'd still only be able to : >cancel them on his net. : Untrue; unlike news.admin, this is not covered by a resurrector bot, anyone : can cancel anything. : >whatever the post, an attack on free speech is intolerable. : This isn't strictly a Free Speach (tm) issue, but in general, yes, gratuitous : cancels are probably bad. BI>=20, or binaries, sure, but not just useless : threads. ... besides, what would a.f.c. be without topic drift :-). Cheers, Kin Hoong ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 28 Mar 1998 04:16:35 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 47 Message-ID: <6fhtj3$ggn$1@news3.tufts.edu> References: <6fc06k$u8i$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6fh9pn$o3q$4@irk.zetnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 891058595 16919 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: : On 1998-03-25 kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu(KirkIs) said: : :lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: : :: what happens when you double-click on a c file? : :Well, in Windows-land, you'd probably have it open up the IDE : :you're using for C. : :If you really want to, you could probably add : :a "compile" option to the context (right-mouse-button) menu, or : :mayube even make 'compile' the default action for the double click. : yes, but you usually want to do both with equal regularity. So assign it to double right click. Or something. I still think the basic idea is sound. Of course, Microsoft has determined that double clicking is too difficult a concept for newbies who've grown up clicking once to follow links, so will be trying to get rid of that in the latest interfaces. (thankfully with two modes, I believe, one the new html-like paradigm, one the old fashioned files.) : :The no-file-dialog system could work, I just don't think it's a : :great idea. : one thought. perhaps the folder-file metaphor is not the best these : days. it's done that way, it seems, because it's always been done that : way - has anyone actually done any research into alternative ways of : organising a file system? and perhaps should one be discovered, a : no-file-dialog system could become more practical. Ugh-- it's making my brain pulse just thinking about it... ouch... computer, no files... BOOM!!!! There went me brain. Kidding. From many office users perspective, there is no file system. Just documents you open in "My Documents". And didn't some old iron have "datasets" only, no files per se? -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com "When your phone don't ring, it'll be me." --George Jones ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 28 Mar 1998 04:19:13 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 25 Message-ID: <6fhto1$ggn$2@news3.tufts.edu> References: <6fc06k$u8i$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6fh9pn$o3q$4@irk.zetnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 891058753 16919 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Peter Seebach (seebs@plethora.net) wrote: : In article <6fh9pn$o3q$4@irk.zetnet.co.uk>, wrote: : >(on the other hand, with a text file, there's an obvious : >action you want.) : No, there isn't. When I have a text file, typically I want to: : 1. ask whether or not it contains a given string. : 2. edit it. : 3. print it. You forgot "view without editing, or risking accidental edits." : When I have a program, I may well want to: : 1. ask whether or not it contains a given string. : 2. edit it. : 3. print it. : 4. run it. I trust you mean source code. Otherwise you have much bigger programming Juevos than I ;-) (for numbers 2 and 3, at least) -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com "When your phone don't ring, it'll be me." --George Jones ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!unclebob From: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk (Robert Billing) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Sat, 28 Mar 98 08:54:58 GMT Message-ID: <891075298snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <351cc2cb.9648844@news.innet.be> <6f8faf$2qr@hexium.magnet> <6fce7v$5ju$1@eldritch.dyn.ml.org> Reply-To: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-User: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-Path: post-30.mail.demon.net X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 891164625 17192 unclebob tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.29 Lines: 17 In article <6fce7v$5ju$1@eldritch.dyn.ml.org> worc0223@sable.ox.ac.uk "Ben Hutchings" writes: > It doesn't. Dosemu is not a DOS-emulator, but a PC virtual machine > implementation designed to run DOS in. It requires a real copy of DOS Much to my surprise, when I accidentally booted an OS/2 disk in DOSEMU it actually got quite a long way until linux and the booting OS/2 seemed to get into a cat fight about the MMU. Linux won. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!unclebob From: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk (Robert Billing) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Sat, 28 Mar 98 09:00:32 GMT Message-ID: <891075632snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <1d6g0l5.ch5cue19q7hxcN@stingray-filt-21.rmplc.co.uk> Reply-To: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-User: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-Path: post-30.mail.demon.net X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 891164634 17197 unclebob tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.29 Lines: 16 In article <1d6g0l5.ch5cue19q7hxcN@stingray-filt-21.rmplc.co.uk> btgsch@rmplc.co.uk "ric" writes: > Seriously, my lesser linux box can pull up emacs in around 2 seconds, > where lies the problem? Come to that, this mac manages it in maybe 4 > seconds. .el vs .elc ? -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: pik@esmay.apana.org.au.no.junk.mail (Craig Pickering) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 28 Mar 1998 10:54:19 +1100 Organization: Phantasie Faktor - Kurri Kurri, NSW, Australia Lines: 23 Message-ID: <6fhe7b$2jb@hexium.magnet> References: <351cc2cb.9648844@news.innet.be> <6f8faf$2qr@hexium.magnet> <6fce7v$5ju$1@eldritch.dyn.ml.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: hexium.magnet X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.eecs.umich.edu!attila.apana.org.au!esmay.apana.org.au!esmay.apana.org.au!not-for-mail Ben Hutchings (worc0223@sable.ox.ac.uk) wrote: : In article <6f8faf$2qr@hexium.magnet>, : Craig Pickering wrote: : >I've asked this before and gotten nowhere, but.. : >I thought that WINE needed a live install of REAL Windoze on a FAT : >partition, just like dosemu needs real, live IO/DOS/COMMAND files? : It doesn't. Dosemu is not a DOS-emulator, but a PC virtual machine : implementation designed to run DOS in. It requires a real copy of DOS Albeit a non 386PM machine, correct? : or some other real-mode operating system. WINE is an (incomplete) : emulation of the Windows APIs. It does not require a copy of Windows. Ahh. This is what answers my question - It can't let a program run in 386PM, but it doesn't need to because it doesn't *run* 'doze, it only pretends to *be* 'doze. -Pik. -- -- PiKTag v0.01L > 2 wrongs dont make a right - but 3 lefts do! ###### From: pik@esmay.apana.org.au.no.junk.mail (Craig Pickering) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 28 Mar 1998 10:56:18 +1100 Organization: Phantasie Faktor - Kurri Kurri, NSW, Australia Lines: 29 Message-ID: <6fheb2$2jv@hexium.magnet> References: <6f9bm2$6fm$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fbtj4$huf$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6fd794$3js$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6fdb96$18g$1@mirv.unsw.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: hexium.magnet X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.eecs.umich.edu!attila.apana.org.au!esmay.apana.org.au!esmay.apana.org.au!not-for-mail Kin Hoong CHUNG (khchung@maths.unsw.EDU.AU) wrote: : jk@langley.softwright.co.uk wrote: : : In article <6fbtj4$huf$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk>, : : lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: : : > : : > "starting up a whole app, just to edit another file". sorry, that's what : : > windows does. in fact, whether an application's text is shared or not is : : > up to the application. unix always shares text, as far as we know, just : : > as any multitasking system worth its salt would. : : Hmmm. Is it worth pointing out that, even if you have two or more instances : : of an excutable loaded in Win32, you only have *one* image of the executable : : in the VM (backed by the executable file on disk)? : : : This is part of Multics (if I remember correctly), and even OS9... : Of course, OS9 did not have VM and very few other OS'es with VM force you : to have a 2:1 ratio with real mem. Moreover, my limited experience with : OS9 suggests that it would take effort to crash _all_ instances of an : executable by crashing just one; of course, even that last trick is not : new, as the Apple Macintosh has had that for many years (multifinder). What happens when your executable is a self-modifying monster? -Pik. -- -- PiKTag v0.01L > Never return a kindness---pass it on! ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!peernews.ftech.net!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 28 Mar 1998 11:40:19 GMT Lines: 30 Message-ID: <6finj3$q7t$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <6fh4t8$9sm$1@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-129.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X On 1998-03-27 kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu(KirkIs) said: :Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers :lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: :: true. however, if you've forgotten the syntax of a particular ::keyword that you know already, unix wins by a mile. since we more ::commonly find ourselves in that situation, our preference is ::natural. :> and we also appreciate the ability to document our ::own programs using the same mechanisms as the standard kit uses ::with only a text editor. :Can you do that? Then why does man commandname > stored.copy :produce such bizarre ctrl character results? it does it because man actually rams the manpages through nroff before displaying them. nroff restricts its interference to using backspace for bold and underlining (eg. B^HBO^HOL^HLD^HD) which terminals pick up and recognise. (it may use termcap entries instead, we don't recall - certainly when you pipe it to a file, that's what it does, and you can use sed to delete these and end up with plaintext.) if you go to the directories where the man pages are stored, and look at them using your favourite unix file viewer (view, more, less are the usual) you can see the nroff source. you can also do "nroff -man " to see the result - "an" is an nroff macro package which defines the appropriate macros. -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed.nntp.acc.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!spring.edu.tw!feeder.seed.net.tw!news.seed.net.tw!!dski From: Dan Strychalski Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 28 Mar 1998 12:42:55 GMT Organization: Cameo Communications, Inc. Lines: 42 Message-ID: <6fir8f$dl2@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.72.104.4 Originator: dski@ Kirk Israel posted in -- >: Standardized? You got an ISO, ECMA, or ANSI number for that "standard"? > > No, but save for these occasional gateway monstrosities, it's never > different when I sit down at any PC. Haven't seen Gateway keyboards.... There are a few keys that still move around from board to board, y'know -- I've got recent keyboards with backslash/bar in different places, as well as a few other oddities. The basic Selectric layout has become nearly ubiquitous, it's true. Having switched layouts a few times with no great trauma in twenty years of touch typing, I don't see that as extremely important. I've made a personal decision not to use the word _standard_ or any word derived from it for anything but a pronouncement, specification, scheme, formula, what have you, from a body such as ISO, ECMA, ANSI, the IEEE, etc. -- an organization set up expressly to bring together parties with conflicting interests and get them to agree formally on certain matters. Personal decision, as I say. Perhaps worth consideration by others. >: My fingers know right where to go -- to command keystrokes based on real >: standards. Problem is, I am forced to use Windows at work, and in Windows >: those keystrokes are disabled when I need them most. One of the design >: goals of Windows was to make keyboarding an absolute, stinking horror. > > Sorry you think so. (Which 'real standards' are you talking about, > anyway?) That'll be in my reply to the other post you quoted me in. Coming soon to a news server near you. > For a windows editor, try "PFE" > http://www.lancs.ac.uk/people/cpaap/pfe > You can easily customize the keymapping to your heart's content. Looked at it before, don't remember why I didn't bother with it. Given Windows' tyranny over the keyboard, I have serious doubts about the accuracy of your statement, but sure, I'll look. Right now, gotta run. Dan Strychalski dski at cameonet, cameo, com, tw ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!worldnet.att.net!news.u.washington.edu!dpeschel From: dpeschel@u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 28 Mar 1998 13:18:39 GMT Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Lines: 30 Message-ID: <6fitbf$9io$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> References: <6fc06k$u8i$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6fh9pn$o3q$4@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6fhtj3$ggn$1@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: saul7.u.washington.edu X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 891091119 9816 (None) 140.142.64.6 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-User: dpeschel In article <6fhtj3$ggn$1@news3.tufts.edu>, Kirk Is wrote: >And didn't some old iron have "datasets" only, no files per se? This question is pretty meaningless since you didn't give a basis to compare datasets to files. So I'll have to guess what you meant. In a trivial sense, the answer is yes. IBM users (and probably others) talked about data sets a lot, when we would refer to them as files. I've never understood why IBM comes up with such baroque terms, but that's the way it goes, I guess. The term is still used, and it _does_ make sense if your file really does contain a bunch of data (e.g., in scientific computing). If you were thinking of a difference in function, yes, there is one. Thanks to UNIX and other simple straightforward operating systems, most people would think of a database as something slapped on top of the underlying I/O system. Mainframes tend to be designed to do mostly database work, so the database "model" (of a series of records, with fields, possibly with indexing and other frills) is the core of the I/O system on them. The manuals don't mention anything about the underlying bytes, but only talk about records and fields. Even executable program files (which I think of as a series of bytes) can be thought of as a series of fixed-length records. Often the hardware gets involved (say, disk drives) and there _are_ no underlying bytes to speak of, unless you read the hardware manuals. If you're thinking of some deficiency, that's probably the fault of the specific software and not the abstraction. -- Derek ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!bore.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 14:46:35 GMT Organization: . Lines: 51 Message-ID: <351dff7a.3439733@news.innet.be> References: <6fc06k$u8i$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6fh9pn$o3q$4@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6fhtj3$ggn$1@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02a-194-7-46-40.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) told us > So assign it to double right click. Or something. I still think the > basic idea is sound. Is there a way to do that (in win95/NT)? Double ckicking is a part of the context menu system, and IMO the context menu system as we know it now, can't be enhanced much more. For those that don't know it, a summary (some of these things may already have been said in this thread, I'm just trying to put it all in one place here): - right-clicking on a file in explorer gives you a simple context menu with a few file type-specific choices. - shift-right click gives the context menu with a few more general choices added (like "open with" that lets you select a program from a list). (don't ask me what it's good for to have TWO context menus) - the system (or some program you installed) already defined a number of choices: like 'open' (= run) or 'quick view' for programs; 'open' (=run) or 'edit' for dos-style batch files; 'open' (=edit), 'print' for text files, etc. I just named a couple of the options for these file types here, there are more in reality (for example, 'quick view' is there for all of them - which is the "view without accidentally edit" option someone asked for). The only drawbacks here are MS's use of the word "open" for different functions, and the lack of a possibility to rename menu choices (you have to delete them and add them again under another name). You *can* rename them, if you do it manually in the registry. - You can easily add new fuctions to your own liking, or change the predefined ones. - You can make any function the default (printed in bold at the top of the menu, the rest is in alphabetic order) - Double-clicking on a file executes the default choice - Typing a filename to a command prompt in a shell window (without a program name) also executes the default choice Now that it is in one place, can't anyone create something like it for X windows (or point me to it if it exists)? ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 14:46:37 GMT Organization: . Lines: 41 Message-ID: <351efffa.3568072@news.innet.be> References: <6f9bm2$6fm$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fbtj4$huf$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6fbvvh$u8i$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fc1r1$k5f@umbc8.umbc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02a-194-7-46-40.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes p.kerr@auckland.ac.nz (Peter Kerr) told us > In article <6fc1r1$k5f@umbc8.umbc.edu>, bhurle1@umbc.edu (hurley bryan) wrote: > > > Win95 is on top of DOS, at least Caldera, makers of OpenDOS, claim. > > Jumping on the monoploy bandwagon, they claimed that MS has an illegal > > monopoly on the DOS market. They sucessfully removed MSDOS from under > > Win95 and substituted OpenDOS, and not only did it work, but there was a > > slight speed improvement too. I would like that install... > > I'd like to see it too. As a Mac geek with the unfortunate experience last > week of having to install a DSP card on a Win95 box, together with > software ported from u**x, I was intrigued when having to set paths, > config.sys, etc, that Win95 appeared to be running a DOS emulator. If you had to set paths & mangle with config.sys, you probably had an old (DOS) version of the software. You may want to look out for native win95 ones: they're easier to install, and generally faster too. If it's the drivers for that card, in many cases you can download them for free from the manufacturer's web site. > Does > that DOS prompt really reach down to the underlying DOS? It wouldn't > surprise me if MS had found it easier to run another app called DOS on top > of Win95... No, it doesn't. The DOS prompt is COMMAND.COM running on top of windows 95. You can actually run it two ways: when booting in DOS mode it runs on DOS, when booting to win95 it runs on top of win95 (with long filenames, using win's 32 bit drivers for disk access and win's disk cache etc., that you all don't have in DOS mode). But it is a fact that win95 keeps DOS in memory while it is running, and even uses some DOS functions to do smaller householding tasks (like getting the system time). That's why they say that win95 runs on top of DOS. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 14:46:39 GMT Organization: . Lines: 10 Message-ID: <3521052f.4900821@news.innet.be> References: <6f9bm2$6fm$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fbtj4$huf$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6fd794$3js$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6fdb96$18g$1@mirv.unsw.edu.au> <6fheb2$2jv@hexium.magnet> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02a-194-7-46-40.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes pik@esmay.apana.org.au.no.junk.mail (Craig Pickering) told us > What happens when your executable is a self-modifying monster? "moster" is the right word :) But afaik, in protected mode a program can't write to a code segment, nor is it allowed to execute data, so we won't have to worry about that. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 28 Mar 1998 18:56:05 GMT Message-ID: <6fjh45$r8u$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <6fhtj3$ggn$1@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-030.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 59 On 1998-03-28 kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu(KirkIs) said: :lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: :: yes, but you usually want to do both with equal regularity. :So assign it to double right click. Or something. I still think :the basic idea is sound. moreover, what if a program should take more than one file? not everything is a viewer. vb gets round it with project files, but that makes it less convenient to share components of projects. it's interesting, but it's necessarily a subset of useful thingsto do with a computer. now what would be interesting is to associate apps with files on a one-off, or possibly a multiple-type basis (like CLOS, which can use more than one object to select a method). although it would be confusing... ;> :Of course, Microsoft has determined that double clicking is too :difficult a concept for newbies who've grown up clicking once to :follow links, so will be trying to get rid of that in the latest :interfaces. (thankfully with two modes, I believe, one the new :html-like paradigm, one the old fashioned files.) actually, we quite liked that feature of internet explorer 4. but yes - so much for upward compatibility (hey, you can't run turbo pascal 3 under win95 either ;> - no fcb support). now, why didn't they have you double-clicking on links to go there? :> :: one thought. perhaps the folder-file metaphor is not the best ::these days. it's done that way, it seems, because it's always ::been done that way - has anyone actually done any research into ::alternative ways of organising a file system? and perhaps should ::one be discovered, a no-file-dialog system could become more ::practical. :Ugh-- it's making my brain pulse just thinking about it... ouch... :computer, no files... BOOM!!!! There went me brain. oh, well. no great loss then. ;> ;> ;> :Kidding. :From many office users perspective, there is no file system. Just :documents you open in "My Documents". and the folders you create in there, and the ones you create in there... if they want to organise their stuff, they'll run into it eventually. :And didn't some old iron have "datasets" only, no files per se? quite possibly. forth boxen tended not to use files, but rather ranges of blocks. so we have blocks -> files -> directories -> hierarchical directories -> directed acyclic graphs of directories -> ...? -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 28 Mar 1998 20:47:27 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 55 Message-ID: <6fjnkv$uo1$1@news3.tufts.edu> References: <6fhtj3$ggn$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fjh45$r8u$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 891118048 31489 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: : On 1998-03-28 kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu(KirkIs) said: : :lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: : moreover, what if a program should take more than one file? not : everything is a viewer. vb gets round it with project files, but that : makes it less convenient to share components of projects. Let's say you wanted to make a DLL out of a bunch of source files. You'd use the group selection box to hilight the files, and then double click, or context menu, or whatever. Besides, any file you can double click to open or add to a project via a dialog you can drag and drop into a special area within a program. But batch stuff in geenral gets a little hairy. Especially clever, unixy things. Which is why I like the hybrid system better. : it's interesting, but it's necessarily a subset of useful thingsto do : with a computer. What is, not having an open dialog? : actually, we quite liked that feature of internet explorer 4. but yes - : so much for upward compatibility (hey, you can't run turbo pascal 3 I hate, when editing html using MSIE3 to view the results, if I have a HREF to a directory, it opens up the explorer view instead. (Hint, Microsoft-- I NEVER WANT TO DO FILE MANIPULATION IN YOUR FRIGGIN WEB BROWSER. I need an option to disable that.) And double clicking then, on the directory's index.html doesn't open up that page in the browser like a sensible browser would, but only let's me save it (DUH! It's already on my disk!) or open it using an external viewer. Dummmmmm-de-dum-dum. Sorry. : :Ugh-- it's making my brain pulse just thinking about it... ouch... : :computer, no files... BOOM!!!! There went me brain. : oh, well. no great loss then. ;> ;> ;> :-P : and the folders you create in there, and the ones you create in there... : if they want to organise their stuff, they'll run into it eventually. Yeah, but lots of them don't muster that much know-how. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com "The death of God left the angels in very strange position." --Lions Unix Documentation ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!ais.net!darla.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? References: <6fc06k$u8i$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6fh9pn$o3q$4@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6fhto1$ggn$2@news3.tufts.edu> Organization: Plethora . Net - More Net, Less Spam! X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test62 (21 February 1998) From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Lines: 20 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 22:01:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: guild.plethora.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 16:01:29 CST In article <6fhto1$ggn$2@news3.tufts.edu>, Kirk Is wrote: >: When I have a program, I may well want to: >: 1. ask whether or not it contains a given string. >: 2. edit it. >: 3. print it. >: 4. run it. >I trust you mean source code. Otherwise you have much bigger programming >Juevos than I ;-) (for numbers 2 and 3, at least) Maybe I mean a program in a scripting language. Maybe I'm using my C interpreter, too... :) -s -- Copyright '98, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! Not speaking for my employer. Questions on C/Unix? Send mail for help. Visit my new ISP --- More Net, Less Spam! ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!ais.net!darla.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? References: <6fc06k$u8i$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6fh9pn$o3q$4@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6fhto1$ggn$2@news3.tufts.edu> Organization: Plethora . Net - More Net, Less Spam! X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test62 (21 February 1998) From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Lines: 20 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 22:01:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: guild.plethora.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 16:01:29 CST In article <6fhto1$ggn$2@news3.tufts.edu>, Kirk Is wrote: >: When I have a program, I may well want to: >: 1. ask whether or not it contains a given string. >: 2. edit it. >: 3. print it. >: 4. run it. >I trust you mean source code. Otherwise you have much bigger programming >Juevos than I ;-) (for numbers 2 and 3, at least) Maybe I mean a program in a scripting language. Maybe I'm using my C interpreter, too... :) -s -- Copyright '98, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! Not speaking for my employer. Questions on C/Unix? Send mail for help. Visit my new ISP --- More Net, Less Spam! ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.wli.net!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail From: william.hamblen@nashville.com (William Hamblen) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 02:45:17 GMT Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com Lines: 10 Message-ID: <3521b3e2.4072310@news.nashville.com> References: <6es4ks$ht0$1@xs1.xs4all.nl> <6f1l4u$92h@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <351cc2cb.9648844@news.innet.be> <6f8faf$2qr@hexium.magnet> NNTP-Posting-Host: 28407@207.65.180.122 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 On 25 Mar 1998 01:17:51 +1100, pik@esmay.apana.org.au.no.junk.mail (Craig Pickering) wrote: >BTW - How the heck does WINE emulate 95 at all? I thought 95 needed a full >386PM system to run? Linux needs at least a '386 and runs in protected mode, too, so if you're running Wine under Linux then there you are. Wine does have some, but not all, Win32 calls. I've never had success running anything more than Solitaire with Wine. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail From: william.hamblen@nashville.com (William Hamblen) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 02:45:19 GMT Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com Lines: 12 Message-ID: <3522b42e.4148118@news.nashville.com> References: <6f9bm2$6fm$1@news3.tufts.edu> <6fbtj4$huf$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6fd794$3js$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6fdb96$18g$1@mirv.unsw.edu.au> <6fheb2$2jv@hexium.magnet> NNTP-Posting-Host: 28407@207.65.180.122 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 On 28 Mar 1998 10:56:18 +1100, pik@esmay.apana.org.au.no.junk.mail (Craig Pickering) wrote: >[snipped quote mentioning OS-9] > >What happens when your executable is a self-modifying monster? Legal OS-9 modules have to be position-independent, reentrant and ROMable. No self-modifying code is alllowed. OS-9 is designed as a real time operating system for industrial applications and can run from ROM in a diskless system. It is an entirely different kettle of fish from Windows. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!server3.netnews.ja.net!news.ox.ac.uk!not-for-mail From: Ben Hutchings Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Supersedes: <6fkbp9$mul$1@eldritch.dyn.ml.org> Date: 29 Mar 1998 03:39:49 +0100 Organization: Not organised Lines: 37 Sender: womble@eldritch.dyn.ml.org Message-ID: <6fkc9l$n0g$1@eldritch.dyn.ml.org> References: <6fce7v$5ju$1@eldritch.dyn.ml.org> <6fhe7b$2jb@hexium.magnet> NNTP-Posting-Host: max84.public.ox.ac.uk In article <6fhe7b$2jb@hexium.magnet>, Craig Pickering wrote: >Ben Hutchings (worc0223@sable.ox.ac.uk) wrote: >: In article <6f8faf$2qr@hexium.magnet>, >: Craig Pickering wrote: >: >I've asked this before and gotten nowhere, but.. >: >I thought that WINE needed a live install of REAL Windoze on a FAT >: >partition, just like dosemu needs real, live IO/DOS/COMMAND files? > >: It doesn't. Dosemu is not a DOS-emulator, but a PC virtual machine >: implementation designed to run DOS in. It requires a real copy of DOS > >Albeit a non 386PM machine, correct? Dosemu supports DPMI so that programs running in dosemu can allocate and use memory throughout the 32-bit addressing range. Therefore it must support both real-mode and 386-protected-mode programs within the virtual machine. (It doesn't really change the mode, though. Each protected-mode task has various attributes including one to enable emulation of real-mode, sometimes known as "virtual-8086 mode".) : or some other real-mode operating system. WINE is an (incomplete) : emulation of the Windows APIs. It does not require a copy of Windows. >Ahh. This is what answers my question - It can't let a program run in >386PM, but it doesn't need to because it doesn't *run* 'doze, it only >pretends to *be* 'doze. No, the programs still use protected-mode addressing. As far as I know, very few Windows programs - and no recent ones - will work with real-mode addressing. -- Ben Hutchings | ICOA User Rep election 1998: http://www.jms.org/election/ email/finger: m95bwh@ecs.ox.ac.uk | web: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~worc0223/ Hoare's Law of Large Problems: Inside every large problem is a small problem struggling to get out. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.wli.net!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail From: genew@vip.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 23:51:25 GMT Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com Lines: 34 Message-ID: <351c8be5.45284510@news.vip.net> References: <6fc06k$u8i$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6fh9pn$o3q$4@irk.zetnet.co.uk> Reply-To: genew@vip.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 27954@204.209.212.52 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) wrote: >In article <6fh9pn$o3q$4@irk.zetnet.co.uk>, wrote: >>(on the other hand, with a text file, there's an obvious >>action you want.) > >No, there isn't. When I have a text file, typically I want to: Sure, there is. It just that it keeps changing. (I do get a headstart, right?) >1. ask whether or not it contains a given string. >2. edit it. >3. print it. 4) Use it as input to a utility program. I have files of filenames that I feed some of my utilities with. >When I have a program, I may well want to: >1. ask whether or not it contains a given string. >2. edit it. >3. print it. >4. run it. 5) Run it under a debugger. 6) Compile it. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko C Pronunciation Guide: y=x++; "wye equals ex plus plus semicolon" x=x++; "ex equals ex doublecross semicolon" ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail From: genew@vip.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 23:51:28 GMT Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com Lines: 45 Message-ID: <351c8ce5.45540955@news.vip.net> References: <6fc06k$u8i$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6fh9pn$o3q$4@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6fhtj3$ggn$1@news3.tufts.edu> Reply-To: genew@vip.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 27954@204.209.212.52 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) wrote: >lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: > > >: On 1998-03-25 kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu(KirkIs) said: >: :lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: >: :: what happens when you double-click on a c file? > >: :Well, in Windows-land, you'd probably have it open up the IDE >: :you're using for C. > >: :If you really want to, you could probably add >: :a "compile" option to the context (right-mouse-button) menu, or >: :mayube even make 'compile' the default action for the double click. > >: yes, but you usually want to do both with equal regularity. > >So assign it to double right click. Or something. I still think the >basic idea is sound. "sound"? I thought we were discussing screen interfacing. Mine doesn't talk to me. I may talk to it, but it doesn't have to listen. The idea is so good that we could come up with a way of specifying an arbitrary, dynamic binding. I have such a tool on my system. It's called a keyboard. [snip] >From many office users perspective, there is no file system. Just >documents you open in "My Documents". > >And didn't some old iron have "datasets" only, no files per se? I think you are referring to volumes that did not have filesystems. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko C Pronunciation Guide: y=x++; "wye equals ex plus plus semicolon" x=x++; "ex equals ex doublecross semicolon" ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!allegro!kisrael From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What does Micro$oft do Well ? Date: 30 Mar 1998 01:37:10 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 24 Message-ID: <6fmt06$pu0$1@news3.tufts.edu> References: <6fc06k$u8i$2@news3.tufts.edu> <6fh9pn$o3q$4@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6fhtj3$ggn$1@news3.tufts.edu> <351c8ce5.45540955@news.vip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: allegro.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 891221830 26560 (None) 192.138.177.97 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Gene Wirchenko (genew@vip.net) wrote: : kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) wrote: : >So assign it to double right click. Or something. I still think the : >basic idea is sound. : "sound"? I thought we were discussing screen interfacing. Mine : doesn't talk to me. I may talk to it, but it doesn't have to listen. Ba dum dum chhhhhhhhhhh : The idea is so good that we could come up with a way of : specifying an arbitrary, dynamic binding. I have such a tool on my : system. It's called a keyboard. Actually we were wondering if we could get rid of the Open File Dialog. Hey, I have as many one-letter unix aliases as the next guy, but lots of people don't have the need for pipes an