From: dski@cameonet.cameo.com.twx (Dan Strychalski) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Word Perfect History Date: 11 Feb 1998 01:11:34 GMT Organization: Cameo Communications, Inc. Lines: 13 Message-ID: <6bqts6$obv@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.72.104.4 Originator: dski@ Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!spring.edu.tw!feeder.seed.net.tw!news.seed.net.tw!!dski Tris Orendorff (triso@remove-me.inasec.ca) wrote -- > Can anyone point me to a brief history of Word Perfect? Yeah, yeah. I know > it's not that old, but it is about to become history. A few starting points: http://werple.mira.net.au/~jromney/TheAge/cw290394.htm http://www.kaizengroup.com/andre.htm http://207.179.49.21/info.htm Dan Strychalski WordPerfect power, WordStar keystrokes, Macintosh menus. It works. ###### From: skb@xmission.removethis.com (Scott Brown) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Word Perfect History Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 04:43:47 GMT Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0900) Lines: 10 Message-ID: <34e12c5a.188567842@news.xmission.com> References: <6bqts6$obv@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: slc31.modem.xmission.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!xmission!not-for-mail On 11 Feb 1998 01:11:34 GMT, dski@cameonet.cameo.com.twx (Dan Strychalski) wrote: >Tris Orendorff (triso@remove-me.inasec.ca) wrote -- > >> Can anyone point me to a brief history of Word Perfect? Yeah, yeah. I know >> it's not that old, but it is about to become history. Oh no, not *again*! ###### From: mpsayler@cs.utexas.edu (Matthew Sayler) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Word Perfect History Date: 11 Feb 1998 13:40:46 -0600 Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <6boenc$go4$2@nntp1.uunet.ca> <6bsue0$s3g$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> Reply-To: mpsayler@cs.utexas.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: beret.cs.utexas.edu X-Trace: news.cs.utexas.edu 887226048 15341 mpsayler 128.83.144.38 X-Complaints-To: usenet@cs.utexas.edu X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.2 UNIX) Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cs.utexas.edu!mpsayler I distinctly remember lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote in alt.folklore.computers: > > > On 1998-02-10 triso@remove-me.inasec.ca(TrisOrendorff) said: > :Can anyone point me to a brief history of Word Perfect? Yeah, yeah. > :I know it's not that old, but it is about to become history. > > wasn't it first written in forth? or are we thinking of something else > here? (not to perpetuate rumors or anything ...) I heard that it was written in assembler for versions < 5.0. For versions >= 5.0 it was rewritten in C. This was the point where WP got a major feature-ing. At least that's what I remember. m@ -- /* Matt Sayler -- mpsayler@cs.utexas.edu -- Austin, Texas (512)457-0086 -- http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mpsayler Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations? */ ###### From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Word Perfect History Date: 11 Feb 1998 19:33:20 GMT Lines: 14 Message-ID: <6bsue0$s3g$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <6boenc$go4$2@nntp1.uunet.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-065.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news1.chicago.iagnet.net!qual.net!iagnet.net!btnet-peer!btnet-feed1!btnet!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1998-02-10 triso@remove-me.inasec.ca(TrisOrendorff) said: :Can anyone point me to a brief history of Word Perfect? Yeah, yeah. :I know it's not that old, but it is about to become history. wasn't it first written in forth? or are we thinking of something else here? -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ###### From: "George Gray" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Word Perfect History Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:54:42 -0500 Organization: Bell Atlantic Internet Solutions Lines: 5 Message-ID: <6btrve$kvj@world6.bellatlantic.net> References: <6boenc$go4$2@nntp1.uunet.ca> <6bsue0$s3g$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209340158.bellatlantic.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!newsfeed.wli.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!netnews.com!newsin.iconnet.net!world6.bellatlantic.net!news The real demise to the once-mighty word processor took place when Novell bought the product. It was on the verge of becoming a really nice product. It should have died then. ###### From: mcv@wxs.nl (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Word Perfect History Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 05:29:14 GMT Organization: World Access Lines: 16 Message-ID: <34f986af.313742050@news.wxs.nl> References: <6boenc$go4$2@nntp1.uunet.ca> <6bsue0$s3g$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <6btrve$kvj@world6.bellatlantic.net> Reply-To: mcv@wxs.nl NNTP-Posting-Host: hlm0073.wxs.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99g/32.326 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!209.95.128.196!news-nyc.telia.net!masternews.telia.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.wxs.nl!news On Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:54:42 -0500, "George Gray" wrote: >The real demise to the once-mighty word processor took place when Novell >bought the product. Novell seems to be in the business of buying Microsoft competitors and killing them off (or at least doing absolutely nothing with them): DR-DOS (vs. MS DOS), the Unix trademark (vs. Windows[NT]), WordPerfect (vs. Word)... There's great conspiracy-theory material here... ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv@wxs.nl Amsterdam ###### From: hotlynx@SPAMBEGONEwhidbey.net Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Word Perfect History Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 06:36:02 -0800 Organization: WhidbeyNet News Service Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <6boenc$go4$2@nntp1.uunet.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: asn124.whidbey.net X-Newsreader: Anawave Gravity v2.00 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news-in-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!204.94.52.5!news.whidbey.com!not-for-mail In article <6boenc$go4$2@nntp1.uunet.ca>, triso@remove-me.inasec.ca says... > Can anyone point me to a brief history of Word Perfect? Yeah, yeah. I know > it's not that old, but it is about to become history. Well, it started in the early 80's as a product of SSI (Satellite Software, Inc.) It was quickly ported from PC-DOS to VMS and a few other OS. I still see VMS for VMS on client's VAXes. It was so superior to the biggie - WordStar - that within a few years, Wordstar was gasping for air (kind of like WordPerfect is doing now as Word steamrolls WP). Word was a feeble, almost laughable word processor (not much has changed there). Borland had a truly cool wordprcessor (name escapes me) that was easily configured to look like either of those 3. Nota Bene (???) and Ami had niches in the market. Oh yeah! Borland sold PASCAL source code for a darned good editor that produced straight ASCII files. I built that into several other apps, and still use it frequently today (its macros make it good for HTML). But I digress. WP had so many cool features, and a quirky, but effective interface. I still see WP for DOS in clients offices because it works so well. WP was late jumping on the Windows bandwagon. Not that it mattered. Microsoft had WP in its gunsights, and that the kiss of death. ON the ropes, but still viable, WP and Quattro Pro got bounced around from owner-to-owner, each managing to screw up worse. -- L. Nino -- You can blame everything on me this year. ###### From: dski@cameonet.cameo.com.twx (Dan Strychalski) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Word Perfect History Date: 12 Feb 1998 10:41:40 GMT Organization: Cameo Communications, Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <6bujl4$4kq@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.72.104.4 Originator: dski@ Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!spring.edu.tw!feeder.seed.net.tw!news.seed.net.tw!!dski Miguel Carrasquer Vidal (mcv@wxs.nl) wrote -- > Novell seems to be in the business of buying Microsoft competitors and > killing them off (or at least doing absolutely nothing with them): > DR-DOS (vs. MS DOS), the Unix trademark (vs. Windows[NT]), WordPerfect > (vs. Word)... There's great conspiracy-theory material here... Ooh! Ooh! A new project! Gotta check out the keystrokes used by NetWare utilities.... ;-) Slightly more seriously, if any product's documentation and on-screen messages could drive people to Windross, NetWare/DOS's could.... The guy who set up NetWare 3 and 4 at my old office just shook his head at the mention of these.... Dan Strychalski dski at cameonet, cameo, com, tw Apologies for the anti-spam devices and non-threading newsreader. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: eric@fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Subject: Re: Word Perfect History X-Nntp-Posting-Host: fudge.uchicago.edu Message-ID: Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) X-Newsposter: Pnews 4.0-test51 (15 Jan 97) Organization: The University of Chicago References: <6boenc$go4$2@nntp1.uunet.ca> <6bsue0$s3g$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:19:37 GMT Lines: 9 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news-dc-1.sprintlink.net!news-east.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail In article <6bsue0$s3g$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk>, wrote: > wasn't it [WordPerfect] first written in forth? or are we thinking of > something else here? I think you're thinking of EasyWriter, "Captain Crunch"'s Apple II word processor that was the first to be ported to the IBM PC. eric ###### From: jorn@mcs.com (Jorn Barger) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Word Perfect History Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:22:54 -0500 Organization: http://www.mcs.net/~jorn/html/weblog.html Lines: 20 Message-ID: <1d4cvmb.18egzx714ous4bN@jorn.pr.mcs.net> References: <6boenc$go4$2@nntp1.uunet.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: jorn.pr.mcs.net X-Face: #0%K`N$`(&&tLbyv~^Ip59&CqKAo;?NXix@bv2a,uQX;y*zAek26=&iDOJou, 2\2pLI"TKqjx.[BfZf#2 wrote: > In article <6boenc$go4$2@nntp1.uunet.ca>, triso@remove-me.inasec.ca > says... > > Can anyone point me to a brief history of Word Perfect? Yeah, yeah. I know > > it's not that old, but it is about to become history. Pete Peterson's "Almost Perfect" tells the early story in great detail-- recommended! > Well, it started in the early 80's as a product of SSI (Satellite > Software, Inc.) It was quickly ported from PC-DOS to VMS and a few other > OS. It started out on some mainframe/mini. -- "Tell me, Eutrapelus, which is the weaker person: he that yields to another, or he that is yielded to?" --Erasmus ###### From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Word Perfect History Date: 12 Feb 1998 21:49:48 GMT Message-ID: <6bvqps$vss$11@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: man-136.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 32 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1998-02-12 hotlynx@SPAMBEGONEwhidbey.net said: :In article <6boenc$go4$2@nntp1.uunet.ca>, triso@remove-me.inasec.ca :says... :> Can anyone point me to a brief history of Word Perfect? Yeah, :>yeah. I know it's not that old, but it is about to become :>history. :Well, it started in the early 80's as a product of SSI (Satellite :Software, Inc.) It was quickly ported from PC-DOS to VMS and a few :other OS. I still see VMS for VMS on client's VAXes. well, it's a nice idea for an emulation package, if a little redundant... ;> :Borland had :a truly cool wordprcessor (name escapes me) that was easily :configured to look like either of those 3. sprint, was that? looked like an emacs/scribe clone to us - in fact, we have a copy of it sitting on our hard disk. btw, is there a freeware|pd|gpl'd version of scribe out there anywhere? there was some mention of it in microemacs last time we looked, but that was a hell of a long time ago now. -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil.Franklin.remove.this@ccw.ch Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Word Perfect History Date: 13 Feb 1998 00:47:13 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 11 Message-ID: <3ehol726.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch> References: <6boenc$go4$2@nntp1.uunet.ca> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 hotlynx@SPAMBEGONEwhidbey.net wrote: > Borland had a truly cool wordprcessor (name > escapes me) that was easily configured to look like either of those 3. It was called Sprint. -- Neil.Franklin.remove.this@ccw.ch, http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ for Geek Code, Papernet, Voicenet, PGP public key see http: Mac, 95 and NT users are CLUEless (Command Line User Environment) If I go missing, its once again my newsfeed that has craped ###### From: khchung@maths.unsw.EDU.AU (Kin Hoong CHUNG) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Word Perfect History Date: 18 Feb 1998 05:08:24 GMT Organization: University of New South Wales Lines: 28 Message-ID: <6cdqc8$lca$1@mirv.unsw.edu.au> References: <6boenc$go4$2@nntp1.uunet.ca> <350c11fd.868301282@206.210.64.12> NNTP-Posting-Host: alpha.maths.unsw.edu.au X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uow.edu.au!metro!metro!unsw.edu.au!khchung Joseph M. Newcomer (newcomer@flounder.com) wrote: : I have a complete WP distribution from SSI, including the original : manual. Cool stuff to have in my collection. : Everyone seems to be making comments about how bad Word is. What, : exactly, is the "best" word processor? The more important question is "what do you use your word-processor for?" If you just want something to process plain text, then Word is overblown, and something smaller like vi or even the M$-DO$ "edit" is preferable. If all you want to do is small simple documents then Word is as adequate as any other product. Writing a simple letter in TeX is not usually worth the trouble If you have big, complicated documents with the complicated rules which you need for it to look like a professionally produced book, then the only thing which is adequate is TeX or LaTeX, and the more mathematics you use, the more necessary TeX is. Moreover, mucking about in TeX is _hard_, thereby reducing one's temptation to stuff things up. Of course, it is available for M$-DO$, and you can use word for your editor too. I do agree that FrameMaker is a joke, but that is because it is not designed for anything more than amateurish typesetting. Cheers, Kin Hoong ###### From: l3q90@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca (Warnica) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Word Perfect History Date: 18 Feb 1998 16:21:03 GMT Organization: University of New Brunswick, Fredericton, NB, Canada Lines: 37 Message-ID: <6cf1pf$gal@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca> References: <6boenc$go4$2@nntp1.uunet.ca> <350c11fd.868301282@206.210.64.12> <6cdqc8$lca$1@mirv.unsw.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: sol-alt1.unb.ca X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!garnet.nbnet.nb.ca!news.unb.ca!sol!l3q90 Kin Hoong CHUNG (khchung@maths.unsw.EDU.AU) wrote: : The more important question is "what do you use your word-processor for?" : If you just want something to process plain text, then Word is overblown, : and something smaller like vi or even the M$-DO$ "edit" is preferable. Well, being at least a bit in the publishind industry (university paper, yearbooks etc) and having a bit of experence with old text editors (wp4.1 on DOS and Speedscript on a C=64) and more experence with new page formaters - Pagemaker 6.5, and also a "computer for computer" sake type, I know there is a difference beteween programing PDLs, and design. All in all, most people wont use 90% of the features of there word processor, and If you actualy used al of them in, say, Word, you proably want to use photoshop/illistrator/pagemaker (Or freehand/quark...). But then agian most people wont use 90% of the features of any program on a daily basis. Most people are going to write letters, do some tabs, _maby_ do a multi colum pamphlet, prehaps add some clip art. Though it is possible to dust off a *roff/TeX/Postscrip book and do it by hand, its easier for most people to do it in a WSIWYG enviroment.. Programers who know should program editors for documents or vecrot images. Designers should use thouse tools to design things. Programers make programs - desiginers make documents. And to make good designs with PDLs you woud have to be a good designer, and a good programer. -- Jeff Warnica jeff.warnica@unb.ca The preceding message was most likely HHOS From the University Of New Brunswicks really crappy NFSd fortune file: State: A state is a situation which can be recognized if it occurs again. ###### From: triso@remove-me.inasec.ca (Tris Orendorff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Word Perfect History Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 03:03:26 GMT Organization: UUNET Canada News Transport Lines: 17 Message-ID: <6cg7ce$8c0$1@nntp1.uunet.ca> References: <6boenc$go4$2@nntp1.uunet.ca> <350c11fd.868301282@206.210.64.12> <6cdqc8$lca$1@mirv.unsw.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.176.144.103 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!inasec In article <6cdqc8$lca$1@mirv.unsw.edu.au>, khchung@maths.unsw.EDU.AU (Kin Hoong CHUNG) wrote: > Joseph M. Newcomer (newcomer@flounder.com) wrote: > : I have a complete WP distribution from SSI, including the original > : manual. Cool stuff to have in my collection. What version is this? Sincerely, Tris Orendorff -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d++ s a C+ UC++++ P+ L E- W+ N++ o- K++ w+ O+ M !V PS+ PE Y+ PGP t+ !5 X- R- tv--- b++ DI++ D+ G+ e+ h---- r+++ y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Word Perfect History References: <6boenc$go4$2@nntp1.uunet.ca> <350c11fd.868301282@206.210.64.12> <6cdqc8$lca$1@mirv.unsw.edu.au> Organization: Plethora Internet X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test60 (5 October 1997) From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Lines: 76 Message-ID: <4%iH.74$tr1.188963@ptah.visi.com> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 17:24:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: herd.plethora.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:24:16 CST Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!ais.net!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail In article <6cdqc8$lca$1@mirv.unsw.edu.au>, Kin Hoong CHUNG wrote: >The more important question is "what do you use your word-processor for?" Indeed! I use four werps regularly, all for wildly different things. * WordPerfect for letters, expense reports, and other simple documents which merit pretty-printing. * PageStream for anything that wants layout. * HoTMetaL for some web pages (but not, as of yet, my personal web page... And probably not until they support something better than a game machine with their current version...). * vi for anything else. Text, code, web pages, postings, mail, anything. >If you just want something to process plain text, then Word is overblown, >and something smaller like vi or even the M$-DO$ "edit" is preferable. Indeed; I will go out on a limb and suggest that an enhanced vi (like Bostic's nvi) is worth learning. The infinite undo, alone, has justified the effort of getting nvi running on new machines for me. >If all you want to do is small simple documents then Word is as adequate >as any other product. Writing a simple letter in TeX is not usually worth >the trouble I am not sure I agree; if you have a good set of predefined macros, a TeX letter may well look like \squiggle-meta-foo Paragraph one Paragraph two Sincerely, Name It's a stunningly good environment, simply because the defaults are almost always what you wanted anyway. >If you have big, complicated documents with the complicated rules which >you need for it to look like a professionally produced book, then the >only thing which is adequate is TeX or LaTeX, and the more mathematics you >use, the more necessary TeX is. Moreover, mucking about in TeX is >_hard_, thereby reducing one's temptation to stuff things up. Of course, >it is available for M$-DO$, and you can use word for your editor too. TeX is certainly one of the best rendering devices out there - but I don't consider it a word processor, because it's not. It's a markup language; the related word processor is whatever you like that generates text. >I do agree that FrameMaker is a joke, but that is because it is not designed >for anything more than amateurish typesetting. I have never even looked at it. One part of Xerox used to sell (and probably still does) some fairly weak form-editing (single page-oriented layout) software. It can sell for thousands of dollars, because your other alternative is a *programmer*, to write the code the big lasers use. It will be a while yet before industrial lasers catch on to the PostScript thing; mostly, they do idiotic things like use a 486 to rasterize. -s -- Copyright '98, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! Not speaking for my employer. Questions on C/Unix? Send mail for help. Visit my new ISP --- More Net, Less Spam!