From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 98 14:11:47 GMT Message-ID: <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <34aace82.377062@news.cadvision.com> Reply-To: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-User: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-Path: post-10.mail.demon.net!post.mail.demon.net!tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 883670910 11954 unclebob tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.29 Lines: 39 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!ais.net!news.idt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!unclebob In article <34aace82.377062@news.cadvision.com> Digital.Magic@cadvision.com "John W Hall" writes: > I opine that it would be 'practically dangerous rather than > 'legally' dangerous to use these except for in-house purposes. > Since they are not published, MS could change or remove them at > any time without notice and your app would be blown away, with no > recourse. Actually the problem here is the generic one of third party, reverse engineered or folklore documentation. Having spent most of my working life hacking on DEC kit of one sort or another, I don't feel safe without a grey or orange wall [1]. Particularly I have always appreciated DEC giving hints about what you could safely do with particular system calls, and what worked, but wasn't guaranteed to be the same in the next release. I have since taught people to chant the mantra "These bits are reserved, must be zero" which DEC have been known to use. Basically this means that some areas of a data structure passed to the system must be zero, and the system may, but won't necessarily, choke if they aren't. Then, in the next release, these bits can safely be allocated to turn on a new feature and old software will still run. This is called compatibility between versions and is another thing we used to do before m$ invaded, see also "software reliability", "documentation", "program design"... [1] For non-decoids a VAX manual set in orange or grey binders can occupy >20' of shelf space. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: kensey@mindspring.com (Joe Thompson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 21:16:34 -0500 Organization: Orion Computer Consulting Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <34aace82.377062@news.cadvision.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: user-37kba92.dialup.mindspring.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Server-Date: 2 Jan 1998 02:16:18 GMT X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!news-xfer.siscom.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!newsfeed.internetmci.com!207.69.200.61!mindspring!news.mindspring.com!kensey In article <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk>, unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk wrote: > I have since taught people to chant the mantra "These bits are > reserved, must be zero" which DEC have been known to use. Basically > this means that some areas of a data structure passed to the system must > be zero, and the system may, but won't necessarily, choke if they > aren't. Then, in the next release, these bits can safely be allocated > to turn on a new feature and old software will still run. When Apple came out with the Mac System software, it was 24-bit. They told everybody "Do not use the upper 8 bits of addresses. They are reserved and at some indeterminate future point Bad Things will happen to apps that use them." Flash forward to 1991 and the advent of System 7: 32-bit, and sure enough, software that had stuffed data into the "reserved" bits died a horrible smoking death. Microsoft software was notorious; many people, rather than give up their precious Word and Excel, turned off 32-bit addressing. -- Joe -- Joe Thompson | Finger for Geek | Tech support is a fine Charlottesville, VA | Code and PGP key | art which, once mastered, Freelance PC service | | ensures loss of sanity. Technical Writing | http://driver-8.rlc.net/ By sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to the address above you agree to a proofreading fee of $1000 per message. ###### From: dpeschel@u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: 2 Jan 1998 05:24:11 GMT Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Lines: 29 Message-ID: <68htlr$l30$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu> References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <34aace82.377062@news.cadvision.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: saul7.u.washington.edu X-Trace: nntp4.u.washington.edu 883718651 21600 (None) 140.142.64.4 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-User: dpeschel Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!worldnet.att.net!news.u.washington.edu!dpeschel In article , Joe Thompson wrote: >When Apple came out with the Mac System software, it was 24-bit. They told >everybody "Do not use the upper 8 bits of addresses. They are reserved and >at some indeterminate future point Bad Things will happen to apps that use >them." > >Flash forward to 1991 and the advent of System 7: 32-bit, and sure enough, >software that had stuffed data into the "reserved" bits died a horrible >smoking death. Microsoft software was notorious; many people, rather than >give up their precious Word and Excel, turned off 32-bit addressing. -- Joe It would be unfair not to admit that some of Apple's own software has this problem. Some of their system software was delinquent... also, many machines had non-32-bit-clean ROM code. As far as I know, Apple has never sold any ROM upgrades to the public. They offered a software fix for some machines; Connectix (?) offered another one for more machines; I think Apple eventually arranged to use Connectix' code exclusively. I believe some programs are still broken (the font editor in ResEdit, for one; anyone know of a free bitmap font editor?). I read somewhere that the system software is designed to load Word and Excel at fixed locations. In the Mac world, this is not supposed to be necessary. (Now that I think about it, this could be another aspect of the problem that Joe mentioned.) -- Derek ###### From: "David Thompson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 11:22:16 -0800 Organization: WRQ Inc. Seattle, WA Lines: 16 Message-ID: <68jep2$nlp$1@wrqnews.wrq.com> References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <34aace82.377062@news.cadvision.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.215.90.112 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!news-xfer.siscom.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!newsfeed.internetmci.com!192.220.251.22!netnews.nwnet.net!wrq.com!not-for-mail >"documentation", "program design"... > >[1] For non-decoids a VAX manual set in orange or grey binders can >occupy >20' of shelf space. > I did VAX work for a long time. I always laugh when I hear someone complain about the cost of the NT DDK or Win32 SDK or MSDN when just a few years ago you would pay the same amount for two extra copies of a VAX manual. But, all in all DEC VMS, docs, and tools were outstanding, but expensive as hell by today's standards. Are they now price competive or ever will be again? ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 98 13:51:07 GMT Message-ID: <883749067snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <34aace82.377062@news.cadvision.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <34ABE914.29C6@idt.net> Reply-To: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-User: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-Path: post-20.mail.demon.net!post.mail.demon.net!tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 883816960 14668 unclebob tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.29 Lines: 16 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!unclebob In article <34ABE914.29C6@idt.net> trs@idt.net "Terry Richards" writes: > A quick search of the MSVC 4.2 help files on "reserved NEAR zero" gave > me 306 hits. The random few I looked at did indeed refer to fields or > parameters that are plainly marked as "reserved for future use, must be > zero." That's fine, but how do you look it up for /undocumented/ APIs? -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: ehrice@his.com (Edward Rice) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 16:28:49 -0500 Organization: NDS Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <34aace82.377062@news.cadvision.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm3-31.his.com Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.cs.jhu.edu!news3.his.com!user In article , kensey@mindspring.com (Joe Thompson) wrote: > Flash forward to 1991 and the advent of System 7: 32-bit, and sure enough, > software that had stuffed data into the "reserved" bits died a horrible > smoking death. Microsoft software was notorious; many people, rather than > give up their precious Word and Excel, turned off 32-bit addressing. -- Joe Microsloth was the worst, by far -- but what do you expect when you hire recent college grads who fancy themselves to be gunslinging hackers, and "test" them by giving them bit-specific problems to do over lunch? The real crime was that Microsoft didn't pay /any/ attention to the "32-bit is coming, it's REALLY coming, this is what you have to do to make sure your code will continue to run" notices that Apple sent out for about a year. They just ignored it, and figured the customer could always pay for their carelessness and "code efficiency" with delays and costly software upgrades. (I always wonder, though, how they can code so machine-specifically that everything breaks when someone in the next county sneezes, and still manage to consume all those terabytes of memory with their software. That must be the real Microsoft Magic, I guess.) Apple themselves got "bit" modestly -- MacPaint, for example, which came from Bill Atkinson of Apple, was one of the programs for which Apple had to rush out some quick fixes to make it keep running. ###### From: pete.fenelon@zetnet.co.uk (Pete Fenelon) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: 2 Jan 1998 20:11:19 GMT Lines: 13 Message-ID: <68jhl7$cbj$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <34aace82.377062@news.cadvision.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-193.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 BETA-950824-16colors PL0] Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!news-xfer.siscom.net!streamer1.cleveland.iagnet.net!iagnet.net!btnet-peer!btnet-feed1!btnet!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail Joe Thompson (kensey@mindspring.com) wrote: : When Apple came out with the Mac System software, it was 24-bit. They told : everybody "Do not use the upper 8 bits of addresses. They are reserved and : at some indeterminate future point Bad Things will happen to apps that use : them." I seem to recall something very similar happening to AmigaDOS, but I never got into Amigas... pete -- Pete Fenelon, 3 Beckside Gardens, Melrosegate, York, YO1 3TX. pete.fenelon@zetnet.co.uk http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/petef ###### From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: 2 Jan 1998 20:56:26 GMT Organization: teabag Message-ID: <68jk9q$qd$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <34aace82.377062@news.cadvision.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <68jep2$nlp$1@wrqnews.wrq.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk [193.237.4.110] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Newsreader: knews 0.9.8 Lines: 14 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail In article <68jep2$nlp$1@wrqnews.wrq.com>, "David Thompson" writes: > I did VAX work for a long time. I always laugh when I hear someone complain > about the cost of the NT DDK or Win32 SDK or MSDN when just a few years ago > you would pay the same amount for two extra copies of a VAX manual. When you say "manual," do you mean the infamous "wall?" :) And what was the average installation cost of a big VAX system; a hundred grand? A million? I doubt if anyone involved would bat an eyelid over the cost of these manuals -- especially as they were usually of a high enough standard that you wouldn't have to fork out the money again for a load of 3rd party manuals and tutorials! Chris. ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 98 09:31:00 GMT Message-ID: <883819860snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <34aace82.377062@news.cadvision.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <68jhl7$cbj$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> Reply-To: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-User: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-Path: post-10.mail.demon.net!post.mail.demon.net!tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 883822176 15315 unclebob tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.29 Lines: 42 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!unclebob In article <68jhl7$cbj$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> pete.fenelon@zetnet.co.uk "Pete Fenelon" writes: > I seem to recall something very similar happening to AmigaDOS, but I never > got into Amigas... It did. I remember when we first got hold of an A3000 and we ran the package I had developed for A500/A2000 for the first time. I knew that there were certain rules to be followed, although I forget the details now, and I had tried to follow them. If I had got it right then the package *should* run on any member of the Amiga family... It did. Reading the documentation has its rewards. For non-Amiga readers the major difference is in the "Agnus" custom device, which comes in "Standard" "Fat" and "Fatter" flavours, the difference being the number of address bits generated by the device. If you religiously code your requests for memory using the standard APIs, setting the bits to indicate the type of memory you want, then everything works. If you simply malloc and hope for the best then The Bogey Man Will Get You. Perhaps I ought to explain the last bit. There is a boundary in the Amiga memory at the point where Agnus is generating its highest possible address, using however many lines it has. Memory up to this point is available for video DMA, but program running in it can judder to a halt if you run DMA in "nasty" mode that uses up all the cycles. Memory above it is always available to the processor, and code will continue to run during nasty DMA, but attempting DMA into or out of it can have odd results. A classic example of a program with this bug is Lattice's screen editor (an unusual lapse from a company whose software is otherwise uniformly good) which places some of the graphics in the wrong sort of memory, with the result that the arrows at the ends of the scroll bars are wrecked. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: pete.fenelon@zetnet.co.uk (Pete Fenelon) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: 3 Jan 1998 10:37:12 GMT Message-ID: <68l4co$f48$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <34aace82.377062@news.cadvision.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <68jhl7$cbj$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <883819860snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-106.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 BETA-950824-16colors PL0] Lines: 20 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail Robert Billing (unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk) wrote: : can have odd results. A classic example of a program with this bug is : Lattice's screen editor (an unusual lapse from a company whose software : is otherwise uniformly good) which places some of the graphics in the : wrong sort of memory, with the result that the arrows at the ends of : the scroll bars are wrecked. I never liked Lattice C much -- the whole toolchain felt a little clunky. I was a very happy user of the "other" popular 68k micro (ST!) and found the PD Sozobon compiler (in its later versions) or Megamax's Laser C far more to my taste. Lattice was always floppy-juggling; the others managed tighter integration (important in those days with one 360 and one 720k floppy, and half a meg of ram!) Best ST development environment by far was HiSoft's Modula-2. But I digress. pete -- Pete Fenelon, 3 Beckside Gardens, Melrosegate, York, YO1 3TX. pete.fenelon@zetnet.co.uk http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/petef ###### From: Terry Richards Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 10:58:56 -0500 Organization: Terry Richards Software Lines: 39 Message-ID: <34AE6040.4C80@idt.net> References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <34aace82.377062@news.cadvision.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <34ABE914.29C6@idt.net> <883749067snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: trs@idt.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-16.ts-2.hp.idt.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-IDT-v5 (WinNT; U) To: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!atl-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!news Robert Billing wrote: > > In article <34ABE914.29C6@idt.net> trs@idt.net "Terry Richards" writes: > > > A quick search of the MSVC 4.2 help files on "reserved NEAR zero" gave > > me 306 hits. The random few I looked at did indeed refer to fields or > > parameters that are plainly marked as "reserved for future use, must be > > zero." > > That's fine, but how do you look it up for /undocumented/ APIs? > By definition, anything "undocumented" can't be looked up. On the *one* occaision that I genuinely needed to use something that was undocumented I called up MS and asked them. They faxed me the info while I was still talking to the engineer that wrote the particular feature I needed. This particular application was specific to Win 95 & NT4 and will have to be rewritten for future releases anyway. So it was of no concern to me that this particular feature might go away or behave differently in a later release. I'm sorry but I can't be more specific for non-disclosure reasons. Other than that, anybody that uses an undocumented feature deserves everything that happens to them. If you really, truly *have* to then you must assume the responsibility for what happens if/when the feature changes or disappears completely. > -- > I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal > lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ > "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock > phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" -- Terry Richards Terry Richards Software ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 98 12:52:55 GMT Message-ID: <883831975snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <34aace82.377062@news.cadvision.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <68jhl7$cbj$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <883819860snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <68l4co$f48$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> Reply-To: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-User: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-Path: post-10.mail.demon.net!post.mail.demon.net!tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 883836715 17613 unclebob tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.29 Lines: 21 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!atl-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!unclebob In article <68l4co$f48$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> pete.fenelon@zetnet.co.uk "Pete Fenelon" writes: > I never liked Lattice C much -- the whole toolchain felt a little > clunky. I was a very happy user of the "other" popular 68k micro (ST!) and I was quite happy with it, but I had hard drives in both Amigas, which covered a multitude of problems. > Best ST development environment by far was HiSoft's Modula-2. But I digress. ...but isn't digression the whole /point/ of having an alt.* hierarchy? -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: marcelk@stack.nl (Marcel van Kervinck) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: 3 Jan 1998 12:57:10 +0100 Organization: Eindhoven University of Technology, the Netherlands. Lines: 25 Message-ID: <68l92m$kl1@turtle.stack.nl> References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <68jhl7$cbj$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <68jplb$4on$1@max75.public.ox.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: turtle.stack.nl X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!205.252.116.205!howland.erols.net!surfnet.nl!news.tue.nl!turtle.stack.nl!not-for-mail Ben Hutchings (worc0223@sable.ox.ac.uk) wrote: > AmigaBasic, written by - guess who? - Microsoft, had this problem. > But it was nothing to do with changes in the OS, although these also > caused some problems for it. No, AmigaBasic used an instruction that directly accessed the status register. This is allowed on the 68000, but can't be done in user mode on any other m68k processor. This was documented from the beginning in the Hardware Reference Manual, Chapter 1 (Introduction), page 10: "Do not use assembler instructions which are priviledged on any 68000 family processor, most notable MOVE SR, which is priviledged on 68010/20/30." As anyone would expect from MS, they used the instruction. The binary could be patched to replace these intructions, and it would run after that. But I think no-one really bothered to do so, because it wasn't worth the effort. Marcel -- _ _ _| |_|_| |_ |_ Marcel van Kervinck |_| marcelk@stack.nl ###### From: Ben Hutchings Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: 4 Jan 1998 00:18:11 -0000 Organization: Not organised Lines: 26 Sender: womble@max85.public.ox.ac.uk Message-ID: <68mkg3$19j$1@max85.public.ox.ac.uk> References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <68jhl7$cbj$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <68jplb$4on$1@max75.public.ox.ac.uk> <68l92m$kl1@turtle.stack.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: max85.public.ox.ac.uk Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!news-xfer.siscom.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!server1.netnews.ja.net!server5.netnews.ja.net!server3.netnews.ja.net!news.ox.ac.uk!not-for-mail In article <68l92m$kl1@turtle.stack.nl>, Marcel van Kervinck wrote: >Ben Hutchings (worc0223@sable.ox.ac.uk) wrote: >> AmigaBasic, written by - guess who? - Microsoft, had this problem. >> But it was nothing to do with changes in the OS, although these also >> caused some problems for it. > >No, AmigaBasic used an instruction that directly accessed the status >register. I know that. I thought it also used the upper 8 bits of pointers, but I don't remember. My first Amiga had OS 2.0 so I never had much contact with AmigaBasic. Perhaps it fails to specify MEMF_CHIP when allocating memory for graphics or audio? Or maybe my memory is just inventing criticisms of AmigaBasic that are completely unjustified... Emacs uses the upper 5 bits of pointers in its LISP system for storing typing information. Of course, it clears these before deferencing the pointer, but that doesn't help when it allocates memory at addresses greater than 2**27, as it will on many Amigas, where main memory does *not* begin at 0 and addresses are not virtualised. -- Ben Hutchings, M&CS student | Jay Miner Society website: http://www.jms.org/ email/finger m95bwh@ecs.ox.ac.uk | homepage http://users.ox.ac.uk/~worc0223/ Quantity is no substitute for quality, but its the only one we've got. ###### From: Ben Hutchings Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: 4 Jan 1998 00:18:11 -0000 Organization: Not organised Lines: 26 Sender: womble@max85.public.ox.ac.uk Message-ID: <68mkg3$19j$1@max85.public.ox.ac.uk> References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <68jhl7$cbj$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <68jplb$4on$1@max75.public.ox.ac.uk> <68l92m$kl1@turtle.stack.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: max85.public.ox.ac.uk Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!news-xfer.siscom.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!server1.netnews.ja.net!server5.netnews.ja.net!server3.netnews.ja.net!news.ox.ac.uk!not-for-mail In article <68l92m$kl1@turtle.stack.nl>, Marcel van Kervinck wrote: >Ben Hutchings (worc0223@sable.ox.ac.uk) wrote: >> AmigaBasic, written by - guess who? - Microsoft, had this problem. >> But it was nothing to do with changes in the OS, although these also >> caused some problems for it. > >No, AmigaBasic used an instruction that directly accessed the status >register. I know that. I thought it also used the upper 8 bits of pointers, but I don't remember. My first Amiga had OS 2.0 so I never had much contact with AmigaBasic. Perhaps it fails to specify MEMF_CHIP when allocating memory for graphics or audio? Or maybe my memory is just inventing criticisms of AmigaBasic that are completely unjustified... Emacs uses the upper 5 bits of pointers in its LISP system for storing typing information. Of course, it clears these before deferencing the pointer, but that doesn't help when it allocates memory at addresses greater than 2**27, as it will on many Amigas, where main memory does *not* begin at 0 and addresses are not virtualised. -- Ben Hutchings, M&CS student | Jay Miner Society website: http://www.jms.org/ email/finger m95bwh@ecs.ox.ac.uk | homepage http://users.ox.ac.uk/~worc0223/ Quantity is no substitute for quality, but its the only one we've got. ###### From: tsw@cagent.com (Tom Watson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 16:30:49 -0800 Organization: CagEnt, Inc. Lines: 58 Message-ID: References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <34aace82.377062@news.cadvision.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <68htlr$l30$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu> <68r9ij$jnm3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: alfred.cagent.com Cache-Post-Path: alfred.cagent.com!unknown@cypher.cagent.com Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wnfeed!worldnet.att.net!205.252.116.205!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news.rdc1.sfba.home.net!cypher.cagent.com!user In article <68r9ij$jnm3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com>, tph@rmi.net wrote: > D. Peschel (dpeschel@u.washington.edu) wrote: > > : It would be unfair not to admit that some of Apple's own software has this > : problem. Some of their system software was delinquent... also, many machines > : had non-32-bit-clean ROM code. As far as I know, Apple has never sold any ROM > : upgrades to the public. > > As I recall, the ROMs in the affected systems were soldered in place, and > no upgrade socket was available. Upgrading the ROMs would have meant > replacing the logic boards in most cases. [Later Macs often have sockets > where a ROM upgrade could be installed, but no such upgrades have ever > been sold.] > There are only a few machines that don't have "32 bit clean" roms. Of these machines, only FOUR (4) really had any problems, as they were ones that could be used in 32 bit mode (the rest were 68000 machines). The four are: Mac II Mac IIx Mac IIcx Max SE/30 The Mac II has chip sockets for the roms, and the upgrade kit to add a 1.44 meg floppy disk includes a newer rom set (which isn't 32 bit clean either). The Mac IIx (as I understand it, no personal experience) has sockets for the ROMs. The Mac IIcx DOES have rom's soldered in, BUT, it also has a ROM-simm on the motherboard. Putting in a standard ROM simm will get you a "32 bit clean IIcx", and it will run System 7.1. Unfortunately there is some wierd test that makes it BARF when you update it to system 7.5 (been there, done that!!). The SE/30 only has a ROM-simm. The "dirty" roms can be removed, and replaced with nice clean ones. This suffers from the same problem in systen 7.5 as the Mac IIcx. Note: The Mac IIx, Mac IIcx, and the SE/30 used the SAME (yes, bit for bit) ROM set. If you upgraded your Mac II, it got this same rom set. From what I gather, the problem in the code is that in one place, it asks are you 32 bit clean roms, and another it asks are you an IIx, IIcx, SE/30. The two questions cause something to loop, and it stalls. One of these days I'll go into Macsbug and find out the solution. Apple never sold ROM upgrades for fear of having a black market in them for 3rd party hardware platforms. If Apple sold them the 3rd parties couldn't be accused of copyright stuff. Pity... -- tsw@cagent.com (Home: tsw@johana.com) Please forward spam to: annagram@hr.house.gov (my Congressman), I do. ###### From: tsw@cagent.com (Tom Watson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 16:33:42 -0800 Organization: CagEnt, Inc. Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <68jhl7$cbj$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <68jplb$4on$1@max75.public.ox.ac.uk> <68l92m$kl1@turtle.stack.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: alfred.cagent.com Cache-Post-Path: alfred.cagent.com!unknown@cypher.cagent.com Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wnfeed!worldnet.att.net!205.252.116.205!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news.rdc1.sfba.home.net!cypher.cagent.com!user In article <68l92m$kl1@turtle.stack.nl>, marcelk@stack.nl (Marcel van Kervinck) wrote: > Ben Hutchings (worc0223@sable.ox.ac.uk) wrote: > > AmigaBasic, written by - guess who? - Microsoft, had this problem. > > But it was nothing to do with changes in the OS, although these also > > caused some problems for it. > > No, AmigaBasic used an instruction that directly accessed the status > register. This is allowed on the 68000, but can't be done in user > mode on any other m68k processor. This was documented from the > beginning in the Hardware Reference Manual, Chapter 1 (Introduction), > page 10: > > "Do not use assembler instructions which are priviledged on > any 68000 family processor, most notable MOVE SR, which > is priviledged on 68010/20/30." > > As anyone would expect from MS, they used the instruction. The > binary could be patched to replace these intructions, and it > would run after that. But I think no-one really bothered to do so, > because it wasn't worth the effort. > Of course, the "proper" thing to do is have the trap code detect the violation, and put the proper (MOVE CCR,) in the offending location, then re-run the (new) instruction. Run-time patch. I've seen a Unix bix that does this. Probably what the user intended anyway. -- tsw@cagent.com (Home: tsw@johana.com) Please forward spam to: annagram@hr.house.gov (my Congressman), I do. ###### From: "David Thompson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 18:30:58 -0800 Organization: WRQ Inc. Seattle, WA Lines: 28 Message-ID: <68s5hb$b23$1@wrqnews.wrq.com> References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <34aace82.377062@news.cadvision.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <68jep2$nlp$1@wrqnews.wrq.com> <68jk9q$qd$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.215.90.112 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!wrq.com!not-for-mail The cost was like $400 for a single manual. Like you point out, the boxes were expensive. I worked at first on 11/780s and I do not remeber what they cost. We then had a cluster of four 8200s (I think) and it was around $2M with networking gear. The funny thing was the main application kept running on cheaper hardware 6200s and then 4200s. But, when we lost a manual, it still cost $400 for a manual for a $40,000 box (and a that is just one of bricks in the wall). But, it is true: RTFM always worked. Chris Hedley wrote in message <68jk9q$qd$1@teabag.demon.co.uk>... >In article <68jep2$nlp$1@wrqnews.wrq.com>, > "David Thompson" writes: >> I did VAX work for a long time. I always laugh when I hear someone complain >> about the cost of the NT DDK or Win32 SDK or MSDN when just a few years ago >> you would pay the same amount for two extra copies of a VAX manual. > >When you say "manual," do you mean the infamous "wall?" :) And what >was the average installation cost of a big VAX system; a hundred grand? >A million? I doubt if anyone involved would bat an eyelid over the cost >of these manuals -- especially as they were usually of a high enough standard >that you wouldn't have to fork out the money again for a load of 3rd >party manuals and tutorials! > >Chris. ###### From: tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: 5 Jan 1998 18:42:27 GMT Organization: Mechanist Industries Lines: 30 Message-ID: <68r9ij$jnm3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <34aace82.377062@news.cadvision.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <68htlr$l30$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu> Reply-To: tph@rmi.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cs0053.eld.ford.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!ais.net!news1.chicago.iagnet.net!iagnet.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!jobone!dailyplanet.srl.ford.com!eccws1.dearborn.ford.com!longhorn!tph D. Peschel (dpeschel@u.washington.edu) wrote: : It would be unfair not to admit that some of Apple's own software has this : problem. Some of their system software was delinquent... also, many machines : had non-32-bit-clean ROM code. As far as I know, Apple has never sold any ROM : upgrades to the public. As I recall, the ROMs in the affected systems were soldered in place, and no upgrade socket was available. Upgrading the ROMs would have meant replacing the logic boards in most cases. [Later Macs often have sockets where a ROM upgrade could be installed, but no such upgrades have ever been sold.] : They offered a software fix for some machines; : Connectix (?) offered another one for more machines; I think Apple eventually : arranged to use Connectix' code exclusively. Connectix's Mode32 extension worked on any Mac that suffered from 32-bit "dirty" ROMs. It was seamless, so much so that ROM upgrades became unnecessary. Connetcix has a well-earned reputation among Mac users for doing the impossible and making it look easy, and this was a classic case. Apple eventually paid Connectix a Large Sum Of Money, in exchange for which Connectix made the software freely distributable. But you still get people with older Macs, in the comp.sys.mac.* hierarchy, with all the symptoms of needing to install Mode32. -- Tom Harrington --------- tph@rmii.com -------- http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph "Eliminate the ninnies and the twits" -Devo Cookie's Revenge: ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/tph/cookie/cookies-revenge.sit.hqx ###### From: Ben Hutchings Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: 6 Jan 1998 01:16:57 -0000 Organization: Not organised Lines: 15 Sender: womble@max54.public.ox.ac.uk Message-ID: <68s0m9$1f1$1@max54.public.ox.ac.uk> References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <68htlr$l30$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu> <68r9ij$jnm3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: max54.public.ox.ac.uk Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!peernews.ftech.net!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!server3.netnews.ja.net!news.ox.ac.uk!not-for-mail In article , Tom Watson wrote: >Apple never sold ROM upgrades for fear of having a black market in them >for 3rd party hardware platforms. If Apple sold them the 3rd parties >couldn't be accused of copyright stuff. Pity... But some Apple dealers would sell them. The old hardware Mac emulators on the Amiga used to use Mac ROMs rather than ROM images. -- Ben Hutchings, M&CS student | Jay Miner Society website: http://www.jms.org/ email/finger m95bwh@ecs.ox.ac.uk | homepage http://users.ox.ac.uk/~worc0223/ "I say we take off; nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." ###### From: Ben Hutchings Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: 6 Jan 1998 01:23:21 -0000 Organization: Not organised Lines: 33 Sender: womble@max54.public.ox.ac.uk Message-ID: <68s129$1fm$1@max54.public.ox.ac.uk> References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <68jplb$4on$1@max75.public.ox.ac.uk> <68l92m$kl1@turtle.stack.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: max54.public.ox.ac.uk Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!server3.netnews.ja.net!news.ox.ac.uk!not-for-mail In article , Tom wrote: >In article <68l92m$kl1@turtle.stack.nl>, Marcel van Kervinck > writes >>No, AmigaBasic used an instruction that directly accessed the status >>register. This is allowed on the 68000, but can't be done in user >>mode on any other m68k processor. This was documented from the >>beginning in the Hardware Reference Manual, Chapter 1 (Introduction), >>page 10: >> >> "Do not use assembler instructions which are priviledged on >> any 68000 family processor, most notable MOVE SR, which >> is priviledged on 68010/20/30." > >At least MS didn't write the operating system ;-) > >On the Atari ST, in early (TOS 1.09 or before) versions of the operating >system, one of the first instructions executed when the processor first >got into user mode was the MOVE SR, instruction. The result was that >although it was perfectly possible to plug a 68010 into the 68000 >socket, the modification never worked because the people who wrote the >operating system had been too cretinous. AmigaOS releases before 2.0 (1990) were not cache-aware, and would never flush the CPU caches, even when one loaded programs using the appropriate OS function. This meant that crashes due to inconsistency of the instruction cache were possible on the 68020 and 68030, and almost certain on the 68040, if caches were enabled. -- Ben Hutchings, M&CS student | Jay Miner Society website: http://www.jms.org/ email/finger m95bwh@ecs.ox.ac.uk | homepage http://users.ox.ac.uk/~worc0223/ "I say we take off; nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." ###### From: shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: 6 Jan 1998 02:34:16 GMT Organization: TRIUMF, Canada's National Meson Facility Lines: 11 Message-ID: <68s578$sfl$1@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <68htlr$l30$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu> <68r9ij$jnm3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: alph02.triumf.ca Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!164.67.42.145!awabi.library.ucla.edu!137.82.194.1!unixg.ubc.ca!alph02.triumf.ca!shoppa In article , Tom Watson wrote: >Apple never sold ROM upgrades for fear of having a black market in them >for 3rd party hardware platforms. I think you mean to limit the above statement to Macintosh-related hardware, don't you? I've certainly done Apple-supplied ROM upgrades in Apple ]['s and Disk ][ controllers... (And yes, these were widely cloned by Apple-look-alikes 'round the world!) Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) ###### Date: 06 Jan 98 10:31:48 -0800 From: "Charlie Gibbs" Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) References: <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <68jhl7$cbj$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <68jplb$4on$1@max75.public.ox.ac.uk> <68l92m$kl1@turtle.stack.nl> Message-ID: <518.310T2412T6315249@sky.bus.com> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Lines: 14 X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) NNTP-Posting-Host: news.skybus.com Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!204.244.4.2!news.westel.com!news.skybus.com!204.244.247.117 In article tsw@cagent.com (Tom Watson) writes: >Of course, the "proper" thing to do is have the trap code detect >the violation, and put the proper (MOVE CCR,) in the offending >location, then re-run the (new) instruction. Run-time patch. >I've seen a Unix bix that does this. Probably what the user >intended anyway. There's an Amiga utility called "Decigel" that does this. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 14:08:15 +0100 Message-ID: From: peterk@combo.ganesha.com (Dr. Peter Kittel) Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Reply-To: peterk @ combo.ganesha.com References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <68jhl7$cbj$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <68jplb$4on$1@max75.public.ox.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: rn7.bas Lines: 37 Organization: Private Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.nacamar.de!blackbush.xlink.net!ganesha.ganesha.com!shorter!combo.ganesha.com!peterk In article <68jplb$4on$1@max75.public.ox.ac.uk> Ben Hutchings writes: >In article <68jhl7$cbj$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk>, >Pete Fenelon wrote: >>Joe Thompson (kensey@mindspring.com) wrote: >>: >>: When Apple came out with the Mac System software, it was 24-bit. They told >>: everybody "Do not use the upper 8 bits of addresses. They are reserved and >>: at some indeterminate future point Bad Things will happen to apps that use >>: them." >> >>I seem to recall something very similar happening to AmigaDOS, but I never >>got into Amigas... > >AmigaBasic, written by - guess who? - Microsoft, had this problem. Yes, but there's a relation to the Apple part above, in that AmigaBasic was a direct port of the MS Basic for the Mac (when was it abandoned, BTW?), and that Mac Basic indeed did use the upper 8 bits of some pointers for other purposes. >But it was nothing to do with changes in the OS, although these also >caused some problems for it. Indeed, the AmigaOS was 32-bit from day one, only that there was no 32-bit hardware available for some time coming, so that this particular error only began to show up when accelerator cards with bigger processors and memory in areas beyond 16 MB became available. Yet I remember another case of 24-bit pointers plus 8-bit data crammed into 32-bit memory places: This is one reason why some Emacs incarnations are so difficult to port to modern, >=32-bit OSes. And Emacs comes from UNIX, which makes me really wonder... -- Best Regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // http://www.pios.de of PIOS Private Site in Frankfurt, Germany \X/ office: peterk @ pios.de Still big newsfeed problems causing long delays. ###### From: bereza@pobox.com (Bill Bereza) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: 7 Jan 1998 06:01:58 GMT Organization: http://www.pobox.com/~bereza/ Lines: 30 Message-ID: <68v5om$8gm@examiner.concentric.net> References: <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <68l92m$kl1@turtle.stack.nl> <518.310T2412T6315249@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: viking.concentric.net Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!ais.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!global-news-master In article <518.310T2412T6315249@sky.bus.com>, Charlie Gibbs wrote: >In article tsw@cagent.com >(Tom Watson) writes: > >>Of course, the "proper" thing to do is have the trap code detect >>the violation, and put the proper (MOVE CCR,) in the offending >>location, then re-run the (new) instruction. Run-time patch. >>I've seen a Unix bix that does this. Probably what the user >>intended anyway. > >There's an Amiga utility called "Decigel" that does this. > That program was a permanent part of my startup-sequence when I "upgraded" my A1000 from a '000 to an '010. At the time I was sure my computer had been accelerated, but compared to the system I'm using now the difference between those two processors seems negligible. BTW, for the ceramic MC68010L8 packages, is that real gold in the center or just some gold-colored metal? I took the '010 chip out of my 1000 when it died, because it was too nice looking to leave in a dead motherboard. My replacement 1000 is still running strong, although with just a 68000. -- Bill Bereza bereza@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~bereza/ Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes. ###### From: p.kerr@auckland.ac.nz (Peter Kerr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 09:00:47 +1300 Organization: University of Auckland Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <34aace82.377062@news.cadvision.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <68htlr$l30$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu> <68r9ij$jnm3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p.kerr.mus.auckland.ac.nz X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b6 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.onenet.net!news.oru.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news2.chicago.iagnet.net!news1.chicago.iagnet.net!iagnet.net!ihug.co.nz!clear.net.nz!news.hn.netlink.co.nz!auckland.ac.nz!p.kerr tsw@cagent.com (Tom Watson) wrote: > Apple never sold ROM upgrades for fear of having a black market in them > for 3rd party hardware platforms. If Apple sold them the 3rd parties > couldn't be accused of copyright stuff. Pity... > Apple's biggest mistake, IMHO... -- Peter Kerr bodger School of Music chandler University of Auckland NZ Mac user, crying into his beer ###### From: tsw@cagent.com (Tom Watson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 15:27:42 -0800 Organization: CagEnt, Inc. Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <34aace82.377062@news.cadvision.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <68htlr$l30$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu> <68r9ij$jnm3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> < <690ssj$qph@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: alfred.cagent.com Cache-Post-Path: alfred.cagent.com!unknown@cypher.cagent.com Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.onenet.net!news.oru.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news.rdc1.sfba.home.net!cypher.cagent.com!user In article <690ssj$qph@nnrp4.farm.idt.net>, Eric Chomko wrote: <<>> > > Didn't Mode32 ext. fix the ROM problems that you are referring to? I mean > with 68020 and later Macs, prior to the permanent ROM fix that you mention > above. > > Or am I missing some particular detail? Mac system 7.6 doesn't work with Mode 32, and doesn't include it. You can't run System 7.6 on a II, IIx, IIcx, or SE/30 (much as I've tried) even with 32 bit clean roms. My original experience with Mode 32 and IIcx's was with a new disk driver. The boot sequence would repeat, and repeat. It seems that Mode 32 did wierd things to "non-standard" disks. This was corrected in later editions. ObFolklore: Big topic drift. But they are "old", but not compared to my 1620!! -- tsw@cagent.com (Home: tsw@johana.com) Please forward spam to: annagram@hr.house.gov (my Congressman), I do. ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil.Franklin.nospam@ccw.ch (remove .nospam) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: 08 Jan 1998 00:13:05 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <68jhl7$cbj$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <68jplb$4on$1@max75.public.ox.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 From: peterk@combo.ganesha.com (Dr. Peter Kittel) >Yet I remember another case of 24-bit pointers plus 8-bit data crammed >into 32-bit memory places: This is one reason why some Emacs incarnations >are so difficult to port to modern, >=32-bit OSes. And Emacs comes from >UNIX, which makes me really wonder... Are you sure of that one? AFAIK Emacs (RMS/GNU at least) derived from the Emacs on the LMI Lisp Machines, which were descendants of the MIT LispMs. I know that the Symbolics (also MIT derived) use 32 bit words divided as follows: 2 bit to describe "CONSing" 5 bit type identifier 25 bit data/instruction I would assume the MIT and LMI to have been similar. Emacs was then most likely changed to 8+24 because byte oriented machines do that faster. -- Neil.Franklin.nospam@ccw.ch (remove .nospam), http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ for Geek Code, Papernet, Voicenet, PGP public key see http: Mac, 95 and NT users are CLUEless (Command Line User Environment) ###### From: highlands@bigfoot.REMOVE-THIS-SPAM-BLOCK.com (Sigi Goode) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: 8 Jan 1998 02:24:40 GMT Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <34aace82.377062@news.cadvision.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <68htlr$l30$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu> <68r9ij$jnm3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> < <690ssj$qph@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.21.88 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!ais.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!munnari.OZ.AU!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!newshost.carno.net.au!facmg2-85.anu.edu.au!user > Tom Watson wrote: > [...] > : From what I gather, the problem in the code is that in one place, it asks > : are you 32 bit clean roms, and another it asks are you an IIx, IIcx, > : SE/30. The two questions cause something to loop, and it stalls Code: are you 32 bit clean? Roms: are you? Code: no, are *you*? Roms: asked you first! Code: did not! Roms: did too! Code: did not! Roms: did too! Code: did not! Roms: did too! Code: did not! Roms: did too! Code: huh! listen to you! Roms: well listen to you! Code: listen to *you*! Roms: oh listen to you! Code: look, are you or aren't you? Roms: who wants to know? Code: asked you first! Roms: did too! Code: did not! Code: did not! Roms: did too! etc. Sigi (with altogether too much time on his hands) ###### From: p.kerr@auckland.ac.nz (Peter Kerr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 12:42:02 +1300 Organization: University of Auckland Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <34aace82.377062@news.cadvision.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <68htlr$l30$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu> <68r9ij$jnm3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> < <690ssj$qph@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p.kerr.mus.auckland.ac.nz X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b6 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.ysu.edu!odin.oar.net!malgudi.oar.net!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news2.chicago.iagnet.net!iagnet.net!203.29.160.2!ihug.co.nz!clear.net.nz!news.hn.netlink.co.nz!auckland.ac.nz!p.kerr Eric Chomko wrote: > Didn't Mode32 ext. fix the ROM problems that you are referring to? I mean > with 68020 and later Macs, prior to the permanent ROM fix that you mention > above. > > Or am I missing some particular detail? Yeah, the detail you might be missing is the bit that "fell off" along the bumpy 7.5.x upgrade path. So the system (installer?) "forgot" about Mode32, and said Woops, se/30, II, IIx, etc, sorry, no go. P'raps someone out there managed to hack the installer so the Gestalt check always returned a valid number... -- Peter Kerr bodger School of Music chandler University of Auckland NZ neo-Luddite ###### From: dpeschel@u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: 9 Jan 1998 03:04:59 GMT Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Lines: 18 Message-ID: <69444r$7l7$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu> References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <690ssj$qph@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: saul2.u.washington.edu X-Trace: nntp4.u.washington.edu 884315099 7847 (None) 140.142.64.6 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-User: dpeschel Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.onenet.net!news.oru.edu!nntp.mid-ga.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!worldnet.att.net!news.u.washington.edu!dpeschel In article , Joe Thompson wrote: >7.0(.1) 7.0.1 with the Tune-Up patches installed labels itself as 7.0.1* (the * is actually a bullet character). At least I _think_ that's right. You may quibble about features, but it definitely has its own version number. >7 Pro Hah, I forgot about that one. >7.1(.2) >7.5(.[1235]) >7.6(.1) -- Derek ###### From: "Ralph Wade Phillips" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: 9 Jan 1998 05:27:22 GMT Organization: Phillips Enterprises Lines: 40 Message-ID: <01bd1cbf$ef7cb2a0$f62cd6d0@ralphp.shreve.net> References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <34aace82.377062@news.cadvision.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <68htlr$l30$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu> <68r9ij$jnm3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> < <690ssj$qph@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.214.44.246 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!solace!mn6.swip.net!nntp.uio.no!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.shreve.net!not-for-mail Hi, Eric! Eric Chomko wrote in article <690ssj$qph@nnrp4.farm.idt.net>... > Organization: IDT Internet Services > Distribution: (stuff deleted) > > : The Mac IIx (as I understand it, no personal experience) has sockets for > : the ROMs. > > The IIx ROMs are actually on a SIMM card. Just put one on a logic board > the other day. :) Actually, Apple used BOTH layouts. More accurately, Apple's IIx motherboard would run EITHER way, but Apple shipped them BOTH ways. Production boards were mostly ROM, though, by about a 2:1 margin. (stuff still deleted) > > Didn't Mode32 ext. fix the ROM problems that you are referring to? I mean > with 68020 and later Macs, prior to the permanent ROM fix that you mention > above. > > Or am I missing some particular detail? > > Eric > Sure, Mode32 fixed it. AFTER boot. So, how about 32bit clean 24bit DIRTY disk drivers or extensions that had to load BEFORE MOde32? RwP ###### From: Tim Bradshaw Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: 09 Jan 1998 11:41:58 +0000 Organization: AIAI, University of Edinburgh Lines: 14 Sender: tfb@wiay.aiai.ed.ac.uk Message-ID: References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <68jhl7$cbj$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <68jplb$4on$1@max75.public.ox.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: wiay.aiai.ed.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.2.25/XEmacs 19.14 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.onenet.net!news.oru.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!newsfeed.ed.ac.uk!news * remove nospam wrote: > I know that the Symbolics (also MIT derived) use 32 bit words divided > as follows: > 2 bit to describe "CONSing" > 5 bit type identifier > 25 bit data/instruction The CADR machine may have been like this but the real symbolics machines (3600 series) were 36 bits with (I think) 2 bits of cdr-code info, 4 bits of tag and (definitely) 32 bits of data. Later symbolics machines (ivory) are 40-bit, I presume with more tag. --tim ###### From: jnickelsen@acm.org (Juergen Nickelsen) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:24:25 +0100 Organization: Unlimited Surprise Systems, Berlin Lines: 24 Message-ID: <1d2kb9s.47e8pj1umoszkN@n163-181.berlin.snafu.de> References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <34aace82.377062@news.cadvision.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <68htlr$l30$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu> <68r9ij$jnm3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <690ssj$qph@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: n163-181.berlin.snafu.de X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.3 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!fu-berlin.de!unlisys!news.snafu.de!jnickelsen Tom Watson wrote: > Mac system 7.6 doesn't work with Mode 32, and doesn't include it. You > can't run System 7.6 on a II, IIx, IIcx, or SE/30 (much as I've tried) > even with 32 bit clean roms. Shame. I seem to remember that System 7.5 even runs on a Mac+. Is this true? When I start collecting Macs seriously, I will have to decide if I run the "original" system on each (i.e. the one current at this particular Macs release date) or the most recent system it is capable to run. Of course, having two of each and run both systems would be best. :-} (At the moment I have only a Classic II and a Quadra 700, both neither relly old nor exeactly recent.) > ObFolklore: Big topic drift. But they are "old", but not compared to my > 1620!! Thank God I own a PC that predates any Mac. -- Juergen Nickelsen ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil.Franklin.nospam@ccw.ch (remove .nospam Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: 10 Jan 1998 20:36:17 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <68jhl7$cbj$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <68jplb$4on$1@max75.public.ox.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 I wrote: > I know that the Symbolics (also MIT derived) use 32 bit words divided > as follows: > 2 bit to describe "CONSing" > 5 bit type identifier > 25 bit data/instruction Tim Bradshaw corrected: >The CADR machine may have been like this but the real symbolics >machines (3600 series) were 36 bits with (I think) 2 bits of cdr-code >info, 4 bits of tag and (definitely) 32 bits of data. Later symbolics >machines (ivory) are 40-bit, I presume with more tag. Oops, that was a Bio-Database error. I just looked up in my doku (c't magazine Oct 88, page 232). The scheme I showed above was the TI (Micro-)Explorer, not the Symbolics. As TI bought up LMI this would still be a descendant of the MIT machines, so it still does explain the stuff in Emacs. -- Neil.Franklin.nospam@ccw.ch (remove .nospam), http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ for Geek Code, Papernet, Voicenet, PGP public key see http: Mac, 95 and NT users are CLUEless (Command Line User Environment) If I go missing, its once again my newsfeed that has craped ###### From: ehrice@his.com (Edward Rice) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 22:17:42 -0500 Organization: NDS Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <34aace82.377062@news.cadvision.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <68htlr$l30$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm3-36.his.com Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.cs.jhu.edu!news3.his.com!user In article <68htlr$l30$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu>, dpeschel@u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) wrote: > also, many machines > had non-32-bit-clean ROM code. As far as I know, Apple has never sold any ROM > upgrades to the public. They offered a software fix for some machines; > Connectix (?) offered another one for more machines; I think Apple eventually > arranged to use Connectix' code exclusively. Apple did sell ROM upgrades, on several occasions, for several reasons. I had my Mac II upgraded from the A-level ROM set to the B-level ROM set; later, when I added a 1.44-MB floppy, I had to go all the way forward to the C-level ROM set. All legit, all true Apple-original parts installed by an Apple repair facility. However, not even the C-level ROM set (aka "the IIx ROMs") were 32-bit clean -- I /still/ had to use the Connectix Mode32 package to run System 7 et seq. (Oh -- I notice some later comments. It is true that Apple would not sell you a ROM. They would, however, upgrade your ROM and take the original ROM back. For people who wanted to use the oldest generation of Mac clones, the portables made by Outback, you had to acquire an old Mac, take the ROM chips out of it, and put them into your Outback. For a fairly reasonable price, the Outback dealers would do this scavenging for you. But you couldn't buy an Outback with new ROMs, it had to have ROMs made by Apple that were originally sold in Macintoshes. Kind of like acquiring new kidneys in Las Vegas, it was...) ###### From: Eric Chomko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: 12 Jan 1998 16:37:04 GMT Organization: IDT Internet Services Lines: 22 Message-ID: <69dgrg$itv@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <68htlr$l30$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu> <68r9ij$jnm3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <690ssj$qph@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> wrote: : In article <690ssj$qph@nnrp4.farm.idt.net>, Eric Chomko wrote: : <<>> : > : > Didn't Mode32 ext. fix the ROM problems that you are referring to? I mean : > with 68020 and later Macs, prior to the permanent ROM fix that you mention : > above. : > : > Or am I missing some particular detail? : Mac system 7.6 doesn't work with Mode 32, and doesn't include it. You : can't run System 7.6 on a II, IIx, IIcx, or SE/30 (much as I've tried) : even with 32 bit clean roms. Is 7.6 any better than 7.5? I mean since 7.6 came out and then System 8.0 soon after; one wonders if the only value of 7.6 is as a cheaper stepping stone to 8? Eric ###### From: Eric Chomko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: 12 Jan 1998 16:41:10 GMT Organization: IDT Lines: 24 Message-ID: <69dh36$itv@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <68htlr$l30$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu> <68r9ij$jnm3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <690ssj$qph@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> wrote: : Eric Chomko wrote: : > Didn't Mode32 ext. fix the ROM problems that you are referring to? I mean : > with 68020 and later Macs, prior to the permanent ROM fix that you mention : > above. : > : > Or am I missing some particular detail? : Yeah, the detail you might be missing is the bit that "fell off" along the : bumpy 7.5.x upgrade path. So the system (installer?) "forgot" about : Mode32, and said Woops, se/30, II, IIx, etc, sorry, no go. I tend to stay at least an OS release behind on all my systems. It's like buying the first car of a new series will have bugs, whereas the last of a series tends to be the best. I have and sell Mac II based systems and use 7.5 extensively. Thanks, for providing further support to my belief of letting someone else beta test new stuff before I jump in. Eric ###### From: btgsch@rmplc.co.uk (ric) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:53:34 +0000 Organization: Those with six coloured blood Lines: 41 Message-ID: <1d2qth4.tld83i1t3uyrkN@rm-dynf1-142.rmplc.co.uk> References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <34aace82.377062@news.cadvision.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <68htlr$l30$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu> <68r9ij$jnm3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <690ssj$qph@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <1d2kb9s.47e8pj1umoszkN@n163-181.berlin.snafu.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: rm-dynf1-142.rmplc.co.uk X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.3 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!news-xfer.siscom.net!Aladdin!aladdin.net!ns2.aladdin.net!RMplc!rmplc.co.uk!btgsch Juergen Nickelsen wrote: > Tom Watson wrote: > > > Mac system 7.6 doesn't work with Mode 32, and doesn't include it. You > > can't run System 7.6 on a II, IIx, IIcx, or SE/30 (much as I've tried) > > even with 32 bit clean roms. > > Shame. I seem to remember that System 7.5 even runs on a Mac+. Is this > true? Yes, all the way up to 7.5.5 > > When I start collecting Macs seriously, I will have to decide if I run > the "original" system on each (i.e. the one current at this particular > Macs release date) or the most recent system it is capable to run. Of > course, having two of each and run both systems would be best. :-} > I've settled on the most useful OS. This mean that: My plus runs 6.0.1 My SE runs 6.0.7 My SE/30 runs 7.0.1 My IIfx runs 7.1 My LCs run 7.1 and 7.5.5 My LCII runs 7.1 My LCIII runs 7.5.5 My LC475 runs 7.5.5 My SOs PB520 runs 7.5.5 My Duo230 runs 7.1 My Performa 630 runs either 7.5.5 or 7.6.1 or 8.0, depending My PowerMac runs 8.0 I'm aiming long term for the first 128 gestalt Ids, but I'm trying to avoid actually paying serious money for anything. Fortunately, the prices of II series machines are coming down nicely ATM. The other nice thing is that they are mostly doing useful work, either for relatives or colleagues, rather than just sitting in a cupboard. -- 'ric ###### From: Isaac Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 01:31:01 -0500 Organization: Florida State University Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <34aace82.377062@news.cadvision.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <68htlr$l30$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu> <68r9ij$jnm3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <690ssj$qph@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <1d2kb9s.47e8pj1umoszkN@n163-181.berlin.snafu.de> <1d2qth4.tld83i1t3uyrkN@rm-dynf1-142.rmplc.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: lab.housing.fsu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: isaac@lab.housing.fsu.edu In-Reply-To: <1d2qth4.tld83i1t3uyrkN@rm-dynf1-142.rmplc.co.uk> Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!atl-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.fsu.edu!lab.housing.fsu.edu!isaac On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, ric wrote: > I've settled on the most useful OS. This mean that: > > My IIfx runs 7.1 If you can find it, you ought to try A/UX 3.0 on your IIfx. MacOS never took full advantage of the fx's IO processors and other speed-enhancing quirks. The IIfx is, I hear, a real screamer under A/UX (well, a screamer for its vintage). -Isaac ###### From: Eric Chomko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: 13 Jan 1998 15:07:54 GMT Organization: IDT Lines: 33 Message-ID: <69g00a$25q@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <34aace82.377062@news.cadvision.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <68htlr$l30$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu> <68r9ij$jnm3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: u3.farm.idt.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961025] Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!atl-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!u3.farm.idt.net!not-for-mail Organization: IDT Internet Services Distribution: ric wrote: [...] : I've settled on the most useful OS. This mean that: : My plus runs 6.0.1 : My SE runs 6.0.7 : My SE/30 runs 7.0.1 : My IIfx runs 7.1 My fx runs 7.5 nicely. In fact given enough memory the II series does well with 7.5. : My LCs run 7.1 and 7.5.5 : My LCII runs 7.1 : My LCIII runs 7.5.5 : My LC475 runs 7.5.5 : My SOs PB520 runs 7.5.5 : My Duo230 runs 7.1 : My Performa 630 runs either 7.5.5 or 7.6.1 or 8.0, depending : My PowerMac runs 8.0 : I'm aiming long term for the first 128 gestalt Ids, but I'm trying to : avoid actually paying serious money for anything. Fortunately, the : prices of II series machines are coming down nicely ATM. The other nice : thing is that they are mostly doing useful work, either for relatives or : colleagues, rather than just sitting in a cupboard. I agree with your analysis about the II series. They are good systems. Eric ###### From: btgsch@rmplc.co.uk (ric) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:54:17 +0000 Organization: Those with six coloured blood Lines: 26 Message-ID: <1d2t5cv.1nuer1xtsyyaN@rm-dynf1-142.rmplc.co.uk> References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <34aace82.377062@news.cadvision.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <68htlr$l30$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu> <68r9ij$jnm3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <69g00a$25q@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: rm-dynf1-139.rmplc.co.uk X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.3 X-MD5: f9916fb2b00a91a4d619e77411884486 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.ysu.edu!news.ece.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!pitt.edu!dsinc!nntp.upenn.edu!msunews!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter0!news.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!peerfeed.ncal.verio.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!Aladdin!aladdin.net!ns2.aladdin.net!RMplc!rmplc.co.uk!btgsch Eric Chomko wrote: > Organization: IDT Internet Services > Distribution: > > ric wrote: > [...] > > : I've settled on the most useful OS. This mean that: > SNIP > : My IIfx runs 7.1 > My fx runs 7.5 nicely. In fact given enough memory the II series does well > with 7.5. > SNIP Agreed. Unfortunately my IIfx has a RasterOps video card which requires the 'RO driver disk' for 7.5 compatability according to their web site. Unfortunately their web site doesn't mention a source, and I'm reluctant to play with US voice mail systems over a transatlantic phone call. Sorry, not really on topic, but it has been annoying me as a problem for ages. -- 'ric ###### From: Eric Chomko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: 14 Jan 1998 02:59:23 GMT Organization: IDT Lines: 26 Message-ID: <69h9mb$fk0@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <34aace82.377062@news.cadvision.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <68htlr$l30$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu> <68r9ij$jnm3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> < NNTP-Posting-Host: u2.farm.idt.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961025] Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!atl-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!u2.farm.idt.net!not-for-mail Organization: IDT Internet Services Distribution: ric wrote: [..] : Agreed. Unfortunately my IIfx has a RasterOps video card which requires : the 'RO driver disk' for 7.5 compatability according to their web site. : Unfortunately their web site doesn't mention a source, and I'm reluctant : to play with US voice mail systems over a transatlantic phone call. : Sorry, not really on topic, but it has been annoying me as a problem for : ages. Hey as boring as the Mac newsgroups have become, I'd say we ARE on topic... Yeah, I know what you mean about system SW overhead. I just looked at what it woulkd take to upgrade from 7.5 to 7.5.5. Heck. first it's going through loads of 7.5.3 upgrades (7.5 v2), and the going from 7.5.3 to 7.5.5 another download mess. Until I see some concrete reason to spend an entire Saturday morning and probably part of the afternoon, I think I;ll stay put with 7.5. Ever thought about getting a different video card? Eric ###### From: slavins@hearsay.demon.nojunk.co.uk (Simon Slavin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:17:44 +0000 Organization: First Sirian Bank Message-ID: References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <68htlr$l30$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu> <68r9ij$jnm3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <690ssj$qph@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: hearsay.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: hearsay.demon.co.uk [194.222.24.177] Lines: 17 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.nodak.edu!netnews3.nwnet.net!netnews.nwnet.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!hearsay.demon.co.uk!user In article <69dgrg$itv@nnrp3.farm.idt.net>, Eric Chomko wrote: > Is 7.6 any better than 7.5? I mean since 7.6 came out and then System 8.0 > soon after; one wonders if the only value of 7.6 is as a cheaper stepping > stone to 8? I'm on 7.6.1. It's great. I don't buy things that end in '.0'. This is not folklore, dammit. Get back on-charter. Simon. -- Simon Slavin -- Computer Contractor. | If I ran usenet, the timestamp for http://www.hearsay.demon.co.uk | anything posted between 2am and 5am Check email address for UBE-guard. | would *blink*. -- Nancy Lebovitz My s/ware deletes unread >3 UBEs/day.| Junk email not welcome at this site. ###### From: abuse@orion-com.com (Joe Thompson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Folklore Documentation (was hidden APIs) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:18:32 -0500 Organization: Orion Computer Consulting Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <68dsv0$cep$1@shell15.ba.best.com> <883663907snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <68htlr$l30$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu> <68r9ij$jnm3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <690ssj$qph@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: user-37kba8i.dialup.mindspring.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Server-Date: 27 Jan 1998 02:18:25 GMT X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news-dc-3.sprintlink.net!news-dc-1.sprintlink.net!news-east.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!newsfeed.internetmci.com!207.69.200.121!news.mindspring.com!abuse In article <69dgrg$itv@nnrp3.farm.idt.net>, Eric Chomko wrote: > Is 7.6 any better than 7.5? I mean since 7.6 came out and then System 8.0 > soon after; one wonders if the only value of 7.6 is as a cheaper stepping > stone to 8? Not really. The price of upgrading from 7.5.x to 7.6, then upgrading that to 8, is more than just buying 8 outright. I think the relevant prices are $69 for upgrade, $99 for full version on both. -- Joe -- Joe Thompson | By sending commercial | Tech support is a fine Charlottesville VA | e-mail, you agree to | art which once mastered, Expert PC service | pay US$1000.00/item. | ensures loss of sanity. http://kensey.home.mindspring.com/