From: inwap@best.com (Smith and O'Halloran) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Curious about 10s. Date: 8 Dec 1997 01:53:46 -0800 Organization: Chez INWAP (people, computers, cats) Lines: 43 Message-ID: <66gg3a$r8g$1@shell3.ba.best.com> References: <34837B44.5AD8E95F@stoneweb.com> <34889994.8C0F6033@eng.pko.dec.com> <348B556D.167E@eng.pko.dec.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: 881574828 8693 inwap 206.184.139.132 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!atl-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail In article <348B556D.167E@eng.pko.dec.com>, Don Dossa wrote: >And I still have TOPS10 on a DECtape. Remember back when it would >still fit on one DECtape? Remember DECtape? >Don Dossa >Former KL10 microcode engineer Oooo! That's tiny! "A standard reel of DECtape consists of 578 prerecorded blocks each capable of storing 128 36-bit words of data." That's 73,984 words, which equals 295,936 bytes (using 8-bit bytes and wasting 4 bits per word) 332,928 bytes (with 9 8-bit bytes split between 2 36-bit words) 369,920 ASCII characters (7-bit bytes) 443,904 SIXBIT characters (6-bit bytes). A single DECtape held about as much data as a double-density 8-inch floppy and less data as a 360K double-sided double-density 5.25-inch floppy disk. And it was limited to a maximum of 22 files per DECtape. The block allocation table was sort of like a FAT, only in the reverse. Instead of the file pointing to a FAT entry (with each FAT entry pointing to the FAT entry of the next cluster), each block number entry was a 5-bit number pointing back to the file name. It was real easy to tell which blocks belonged to a given file, but not which was the first block. To determine that, the Monitor could read in any one of the blocks allocated to the file (preferably the one closest to block 100, where the directory was stored) and look at the first word of that block. Each data block on the DECtape had one header word and 127 data words. The header had 9 unused bits, 10 bits of next block number, 10 bits of first block number, and 7 bits of word count (set to 127 in all blocks but the last one). The Computing Center at the Colorado School of Mines sold DECtapes to students for $12 each. The tapes were stored on-site, and required operator intervention via the MOUNT command. -Joe -- INWAP.COM is Joe and Sally Smith, John and Chris O'Halloran and our cats See http://www.inwap.com/ for "ReBoot", PDP-10, and Clan MacLeod. ###### From: William "Chops" Westfield Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Curious about 10s. Date: 08 Dec 1997 16:45:52 -0800 Organization: Cisco Systems, Inc. Lines: 15 Message-ID: <544t4jny2n.fsf@iwan-view4.cisco.com> References: <34837B44.5AD8E95F@stoneweb.com> <34889994.8C0F6033@eng.pko.dec.com> <348B556D.167E@eng.pko.dec.com> <66gg3a$r8g$1@shell3.ba.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: iwan-view4.cisco.com In-reply-to: inwap@best.com's message of 8 Dec 1997 01:53:46 -0800 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.1 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!ais.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-master.cisco.com!not-for-mail The Computing Center at the Colorado School of Mines sold DECtapes to students for $12 each. The tapes were stored on-site, and required operator intervention via the MOUNT command. LIRICS on Long Island had a similar scheme. After you graduated from high school or otherwise no longer had access to the account, you could pick up your tape and take it with you. I think I still have mine somewhere - probably full of embarassing basic programs named after female friends and acquaintences... It's a good things files were so much smaller back then! BillW -- (remove spam food from return address) ###### From: mwood@woodshed.iupui.edu (Mark H. Wood) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Curious about 10s. Followup-To: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:10:09 GMT Organization: La Petite Hackerie Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <34837B44.5AD8E95F@stoneweb.com> <34889994.8C0F6033@eng.pko.dec.com> <348B556D.167E@eng.pko.dec.com> <66gg3a$r8g$1@shell3.ba.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mhw.oit.iupui.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950515BETA PL0] Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.nodak.edu!netnews3.nwnet.net!netnews.nwnet.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!ais.net!news1.chicago.iagnet.net!iagnet.net!news.indiana.edu!news.iupui.edu!woodshed!mwood Smith and O'Halloran (inwap@best.com) wrote: [deletia] : The Computing Center at the Colorado School of Mines sold DECtapes to students : for $12 each. The tapes were stored on-site, and required operator : intervention via the MOUNT command. Sounds like the IUPUI RCC. I think I paid $10.00 for mine, when I was a student. When the last TU56 was retired, I rescued my tape, and I've still got it. It might even still contain the world's worst chess program. :-) -- Mark H. Wood Speaking, as always, for himself MWOOD@INDYVAX.IUPUI.EDU Our nation suffers from too little leadership, and far too much management. ###### From: "Richard Kutta" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Curious about 10s. Date: 11 Dec 1997 04:19:10 GMT Organization: Kuttmeye Lines: 37 Message-ID: <66npju$h4r@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> References: <34837B44.5AD8E95F@stoneweb.com> <34889994.8C0F6033@eng.pko.dec.com> <348B556D.167E@eng.pko.dec.com> <66gg3a$r8g$1@shell3.ba.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.66.161.106 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1162 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.onenet.net!news.oru.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!newsadm Yep! You could get the operating system and the backup program (FAILSAFE) on one. After re-formatting the disk and going through the Once-Only dialog (alias Once-again) you mounted your DecTape and restored the rest of the files, at least on the KA's and KI's. The OS got a bit too big to do this on the KL's! Nancy Meyer Smith and O'Halloran wrote in article <66gg3a$r8g$1@shell3.ba.best.com>... > In article <348B556D.167E@eng.pko.dec.com>, > Don Dossa wrote: > >And I still have TOPS10 on a DECtape. Remember back when it would > >still fit on one DECtape? Remember DECtape? > >Don Dossa > >Former KL10 microcode engineer > > Oooo! That's tiny! > > "A standard reel of DECtape consists of 578 prerecorded blocks each > capable of storing 128 36-bit words of data." > > That's 73,984 words, which equals > 295,936 bytes (using 8-bit bytes and wasting 4 bits per word) > 332,928 bytes (with 9 8-bit bytes split between 2 36-bit words) > 369,920 ASCII characters (7-bit bytes) > 443,904 SIXBIT characters (6-bit bytes). > > A single DECtape held about as much data as a double-density 8-inch floppy > and less data as a 360K double-sided double-density 5.25-inch floppy disk. > And it was limited to a maximum of 22 files per DECtape. > ###### From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Curious about 10s. Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:29:33 -0600 Organization: Consolidated Communications Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <34837B44.5AD8E95F@stoneweb.com> <34889994.8C0F6033@eng.pko.dec.com> <348B556D.167E@eng.pko.dec.com> <66gg3a$r8g$1@shell3.ba.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.29.81.10 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: <66gg3a$r8g$1@shell3.ba.best.com> Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!198.82.160.249.MISMATCH!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.24.40.10!ns1.ccinet.net!bsdserver.tek-star.net!dseagrav On 8 Dec 1997, Smith and O'Halloran wrote: > In article <348B556D.167E@eng.pko.dec.com>, > Don Dossa wrote: > >And I still have TOPS10 on a DECtape. Remember back when it would > >still fit on one DECtape? Remember DECtape? Anyone have ITS on tapes? I should write an emulator myself, it'd be fun to have ITS on your desktop... Hmm... How hard could it be? (Goes and retrieves that instruction list...) Lemme see, 64 times 8... (Counts on fingers&toes) Umm... I retract that stupid question... Actually, given that the instructions are all one word and all in the same spot, it doesn't sound too hard... and if the I/O instructions are all you'd need to emulator for devices, it'd just be sheer work! This would be a decent opportunity to learn C... Is C capable of setting/testing/clearing bits by itself? I could do this in ANSI C, so it's run on the VAX or my PC... (That would be just plain EVIL! Using a VAX/VMS to emulate a 10! Well, it's better than a WinNT port...) ###### From: werme@alingo.zk3.dec.com (Eric Werme) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Curious about 10s. Date: 11 Dec 97 22:50:48 GMT Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <34837B44.5AD8E95F@stoneweb.com> <34889994.8C0F6033@eng.pko.dec.com> <348B556D.167E@eng.pko.dec.com> <66gg3a$r8g$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <66npju$h4r@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> Reply-To: werme@zk3.dec.com NNTP-Posting-Host: alingo.zk3.dec.com Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!news.telenet.pt!news.rccn.net!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news1.digital.com!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!alingo.zk3.dec.com!werme "Richard Kutta" writes: >Yep! You could get the operating system and the backup program (FAILSAFE) >on one. >After re-formatting the disk and going through the Once-Only dialog (alias >Once-again) >you mounted your DecTape and restored the rest of the files, at least on >the KA's and KI's. >The OS got a bit too big to do this on the KL's! Heck, before CMU got RM10B drums, we had the monitor, editor, SAIL compiler, and linker on one tape. Users would usually use two others, one to read from, one to write to. With 5 drives, 2 users could use it pretty comfortably. TECO was neat - it often started without being read in from the tape. It was the only program that could initialize its own data area, the LOSEG. Code lived in the HISEG, and the OS would try to keep that in core. That was in 1969, and the 4N50 monitor, even before it was renamed TOPS-10. Happy day after DEC-10 day! -- -- <> Eric (Ric) Werme <> The above is unlikely to contain official <> <> <> claims or policies of Digital Equipment Corp. <> <> <> ###### From: shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Curious about 10s. Date: 11 Dec 1997 23:54:44 GMT Organization: TRIUMF, Canada's National Meson Facility Lines: 20 Message-ID: <66pug4$jog$1@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> References: <348B556D.167E@eng.pko.dec.com> <66gg3a$r8g$1@shell3.ba.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: alph02.triumf.ca Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!recycled.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!164.67.42.145!awabi.library.ucla.edu!137.82.194.1!unixg.ubc.ca!alph02.triumf.ca!shoppa In article , Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: >Anyone have ITS on tapes? On RP05... >I should write an emulator myself, it'd be fun to have ITS on your >desktop... >Hmm... How hard could it be? >(Goes and retrieves that instruction list...) >Actually, given that the instructions are all one word and all in the same >spot, it doesn't sound too hard... and if the I/O instructions are all >you'd need to emulator for devices, it'd just be sheer work! No, it's more than just work. The details of the I/O subsystems are arcane and hairy. It's a *lot* of work, with many iterations between how the documents say it works, then realizing how the system actually works! Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) ###### From: bh@anarres.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Brian Harvey) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Curious about 10s. Date: 12 Dec 1997 00:09:01 GMT Organization: University of California, Berkeley Lines: 5 Message-ID: <66pvat$93g$1@agate.berkeley.edu> References: <348B556D.167E@eng.pko.dec.com> <66gg3a$r8g$1@shell3.ba.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: anarres.cs.berkeley.edu Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!agate!bh "Daniel A. Seagraves" writes: >Hmm... How hard could it be? When KLH wrote his, he said that the hardest part was getting 36-bit floating point to perform exactly like a -10 on 32-bit IEEE machines. ###### From: inwap@best.com (Smith and O'Halloran) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Curious about 10s. Date: 12 Dec 1997 10:23:05 -0800 Organization: Chez INWAP (people, computers, cats) Lines: 28 Message-ID: <66rve9$a0t$1@shell3.ba.best.com> References: <348B556D.167E@eng.pko.dec.com> <66gg3a$r8g$1@shell3.ba.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: 881950987 5000 inwap 206.184.139.132 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail In article , Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: >I should write an emulator myself, it'd be fun to have ITS on your >desktop... >Hmm... How hard could it be? >(Goes and retrieves that instruction list...) >Lemme see, 64 times 8... >(Counts on fingers&toes) >Umm... I retract that stupid question... > >Actually, given that the instructions are all one word and all in the same >spot, it doesn't sound too hard... and if the I/O instructions are all >you'd need to emulator for devices, it'd just be sheer work! It's been mentioned before in alt.sys.pdp10 that getting an emulator up and running to where it could run EDDT is not too hard. But in that case, you are running the user-mode instructions plus the read/write from the console terminal. But as soon as you attempt to enable interrupts, you've got a hold new can of worms to deal with. The goal is to run the ITS or other Monitor *WITH NO CHANGES*. That is, load SYSTEM.EXE verbatim off of an emulated RP06. This last part takes a couple of man-years of effort, and relies on information that is not documented in any DEC manual. -Joe -- INWAP.COM is Joe and Sally Smith, John and Chris O'Halloran and our cats See http://www.inwap.com/ for "ReBoot", PDP-10, and Clan MacLeod. ###### From: William "Chops" Westfield Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Curious about 10s. Date: 12 Dec 1997 17:17:37 -0800 Organization: Cisco Systems, Inc. Lines: 11 Message-ID: <54zpm6ca8e.fsf@flipper.cisco.com> References: <348B556D.167E@eng.pko.dec.com> <66gg3a$r8g$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <66rve9$a0t$1@shell3.ba.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: flipper.cisco.com In-reply-to: inwap@best.com's message of 12 Dec 1997 10:23:05 -0800 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.1 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.onenet.net!news.oru.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-master.cisco.com!not-for-mail The goal is to run the ITS or other Monitor *WITH NO CHANGES*. Why? I doubt that this was a goal for the TOAD-1, the SC-30, or the KL. I'm quite sure it wasn't a goal of the Foonleys. All *I* care about is being able to GET a 'corrected' version of the OS, and having user mode applications work. BillW -- (remove spam food from return address) ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Curious about 10s. References: <66gg3a$r8g$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <66rve9$a0t$1@shell3.ba.best.com> Organization: D Bit, Troy, NY From: wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson) NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com Message-ID: <34922ceb.0@news.wizvax.net> Date: 13 Dec 97 06:36:27 GMT Lines: 25 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!209.78.65.16!newsfeed.yosemite.net!newsfeed.wizvax.net!news.wizvax.net!dbit.com!wilson In article <66rve9$a0t$1@shell3.ba.best.com>, Smith and O'Halloran wrote: >The goal is to run the ITS or other Monitor *WITH NO >CHANGES*. Correct me if I'm wrong, but even KLH10 couldn't do this -- it required mods to DSKDMP I believe, because apparently instantaneous disk I/O was breaking a spot where code was still executing inside a buffer where a disk read had been requested. This is why Ersatz-11 has user-settable delays on almost all controller commands, real world code is full of dependencies on hardware taking at least a certain amount of time (or more likely, a certain number of instructions) to execute commands. Anyway it seems like in a case where 99% of the hardware is long dead (so there's little chance of turning back after switching to an emulator), it's not *so* bad to have to make a few changes if it hugely simplifies emulation. Assuming your goal is a usable system, rather than a museum specimen under glass (in which case emulation is really cheating anyway). A lot of the old devices were hell to program anyway... Of course the problem then is, if you have no live hardware any more, how do you reassemble the OS after hacking it to accommodate an incomplete emulation? I'd hate to have to write a 100% MIDAS-compatible cross-assembler for some other machine! John Wilson D Bit ###### From: mwood@woodshed.iupui.edu (Mark H. Wood) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Curious about 10s. Followup-To: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:05:31 GMT Organization: La Petite Hackerie Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <348B556D.167E@eng.pko.dec.com> <66gg3a$r8g$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <66pug4$jog$1@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: mhw.oit.iupui.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950515BETA PL0] Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.eng.convex.com!newsgate.duke.edu!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!131.103.1.116!news2.chicago.iagnet.net!iagnet.net!129.79.5.185!news.indiana.edu!news.iupui.edu!woodshed!mwood Tim Shoppa (shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca) wrote: : In article , : Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: : >Anyone have ITS on tapes? : : On RP05... : : >I should write an emulator myself, it'd be fun to have ITS on your : >desktop... : >Hmm... How hard could it be? : >(Goes and retrieves that instruction list...) : >Actually, given that the instructions are all one word and all in the same : >spot, it doesn't sound too hard... and if the I/O instructions are all : >you'd need to emulator for devices, it'd just be sheer work! : : No, it's more than just work. The details of the I/O subsystems : are arcane and hairy. It's a *lot* of work, with many iterations between : how the documents say it works, then realizing how the system actually : works! Well, this depends on what you want to emulate. One *could* design new, emulated "devices" that aren't so hairy, and add new drivers for them to the kernel. One would then know exactly how the new subsystems work and could be reasonably certain of having a usable system. If a usable system is one's goal, and all sources are available, it might not be unreasonably hard for a sharp team. If one insists on being able to emulate, say, a DTE, you've taken on quite a different project. Bit-for-bit and bug-for-bug emulation is not for the faint of heart. (OK, let the corrections roll. I did a fair amount of customization and debugging on DN87S, but didn't actually have to touch the DTE code on either side. Likewise with DAS79, and I don't even remember what 10/11 adaptor we had back then, I'm ashamed to say.) -- Mark H. Wood Speaking, as always, for himself MWOOD@INDYVAX.IUPUI.EDU Our nation suffers from too little leadership, and far too much management. ###### From: inwap@best.com (Smith and O'Halloran) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Curious about 10s. Date: 15 Dec 1997 12:02:22 -0800 Organization: Chez INWAP (people, computers, cats) Lines: 12 Message-ID: <6742ce$a1b$1@shell3.ba.best.com> References: <66rve9$a0t$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <54zpm6ca8e.fsf@flipper.cisco.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: 882216145 14036 inwap 206.184.139.132 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail In article <54zpm6ca8e.fsf@flipper.cisco.com>, William "Chops" Westfield wrote: > The goal is to run the ITS or other Monitor *WITH NO CHANGES*. > >Why? I doubt that this was a goal for the TOAD-1, the SC-30, or the KL. It was the goal of the SC-30. Systems Concepts bragged about being able to run unmodified DSKB:SYSTEM.EXE or PS:MONITR.EXE on their hardware. -joe -- INWAP.COM is Joe and Sally Smith, John and Chris O'Halloran and our cats See http://www.inwap.com/ for "ReBoot", PDP-10, and Clan MacLeod. ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers From: alderson@netcom16.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) Subject: Re: Curious about 10s. In-Reply-To: inwap@best.com's message of 15 Dec 1997 12:02:22 -0800 Message-ID: Sender: alderson@netcom16.netcom.com Reply-To: alderson@netcom.com Organization: NETCOM On-line services References: <66rve9$a0t$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <54zpm6ca8e.fsf@flipper.cisco.com> <6742ce$a1b$1@shell3.ba.best.com> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 18:51:37 GMT Lines: 34 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.eng.convex.com!newsgate.duke.edu!nntprelay.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ix.netcom.com!netcom16!alderson In article <6742ce$a1b$1@shell3.ba.best.com> inwap@best.com (Smith and O'Halloran) writes: >In article <54zpm6ca8e.fsf@flipper.cisco.com>, >William "Chops" Westfield wrote: >> The goal is to run the ITS or other Monitor *WITH NO CHANGES*. >>Why? I doubt that this was a goal for the TOAD-1, the SC-30, or the KL. >It was the goal of the SC-30. Systems Concepts bragged about being able to >run unmodified DSKB:SYSTEM.EXE or PS:MONITR.EXE on their hardware. That was certainly the *goal* of the SC-30M, though it wasn't entirely met--it was not *completely* bug-for-bug compatible with the KL10B, although it tried. Because the SC-30M was a pipelined architecture, something that should not have worked on the KL10B (but did) failed in the SC box: In the EXEC command-editor was located an instruction POP P,0(P) which caused, on the SC box, some very subtle errors. I fixed the EXEC at Stanford, rather than running off to Stewart to make this particular bogosity work. It most emphatically is *not* the goal for the TOAD-1, which is a PDP-10 but not fully compatible with the DEC systems: Larger address space, different I/O model, modern peripherals, etc. -- Rich Alderson You know the sort of thing that you can find in any dictionary of a strange language, and which so excites the amateur philo- logists, itching to derive one tongue from another that they know better: a word that is nearly the same in form and meaning as the corresponding word in English, or Latin, or Hebrew, or what not. --J. R. R. Tolkien, alderson@netcom.com _The Notion Club Papers_ ###### From: gah@u.washington.edu (G. Herrmannsfeldt) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Curious about 10s. Date: 17 Dec 1997 19:05:40 GMT Organization: University of Washington Lines: 23 Message-ID: <6797q4$s6g$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu> References: <34837B44.5AD8E95F@stoneweb.com> <34889994.8C0F6033@eng.pko.dec.com> <348B556D.167E@eng.pko.dec.com> <66gg3a$r8g$1@shell3.ba.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mcclintock.u.washington.edu X-Trace: nntp4.u.washington.edu 882385540 28880 (None) 140.142.64.7 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-User: gah Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!gah "Daniel A. Seagraves" writes: >Actually, given that the instructions are all one word and all in the same >spot, it doesn't sound too hard... and if the I/O instructions are all >you'd need to emulator for devices, it'd just be sheer work! This would >be a decent opportunity to learn C... Is C capable of >setting/testing/clearing bits by itself? I could do this in ANSI C, so >it's run on the VAX or my PC... (That would be just plain EVIL! Using a >VAX/VMS to emulate a 10! Well, it's better than a WinNT port...) C can do bit set and clear, with & and | operator. I believe the PowerPC was designed with emulation in mind, more than most other processors, and would be my choice for an emulation, other than that OSes for it are going away fast. For addressing convenience, you might store each 36 bit word in a 64bit word on the emulator. I thought I knew someone working on an FPGA version of the 10, but I don't know about that any more. -- glen ###### From: dpeschel@u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Curious about 10s. Date: 18 Dec 1997 02:39:08 GMT Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Lines: 22 Message-ID: <67a2cc$mbg$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu> References: <66gg3a$r8g$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <66rve9$a0t$1@shell3.ba.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: saul3.u.washington.edu X-Trace: nntp4.u.washington.edu 882412748 22896 (None) 140.142.64.2 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-User: dpeschel Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!dpeschel In article <66rve9$a0t$1@shell3.ba.best.com>, Smith and O'Halloran wrote: >But as soon as you attempt to enable interrupts, you've got a hold new can of >worms to deal with. The goal is to run the ITS or other Monitor *WITH NO >CHANGES*. That is, load SYSTEM.EXE verbatim off of an emulated RP06. This >last part takes a couple of man-years of effort, and relies on information >that is not documented in any DEC manual. > -Joe I'm curious about the undocumented aspects of the -10 family. You've mentioned interrupts; other people mentioned device drivers, single instructions that have dangerous/subtle/mysterious effects, and pipelining. Weren't the -10's generally asynchronous? So: Are there other things that are undocumented? And since they _are_ undocumented, how do people magically know how to explot them? (Perhaps all the sneaky code was written at DEC, as opposed to MIT or Stanford?) Thanks, -- Derek ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers From: mbg@world.std.com (Megan) Subject: Re: Curious about 10s. Message-ID: Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA References: <66gg3a$r8g$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <66rve9$a0t$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <67a2cc$mbg$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 04:41:36 GMT Lines: 28 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!solace!mn6.swip.net!nntp.uio.no!uninett.no!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!world!mbg dpeschel@u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) writes: >I'm curious about the undocumented aspects of the -10 family. You've mentioned >interrupts; other people mentioned device drivers, single instructions that >have dangerous/subtle/mysterious effects, and pipelining. Weren't the -10's >generally asynchronous? >So: Are there other things that are undocumented? And since they _are_ >undocumented, how do people magically know how to explot them? (Perhaps all >the sneaky code was written at DEC, as opposed to MIT or Stanford?) It might be really good if someone could start collecting any such undocumented gotchas as people remember them, or encounter them (if anyone else out there is trying to write an emulator). This could be added to a pdp-10 faq... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry | tcp/ip (work): gentry@zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support and Engineering Group | or: gentry@rusure.enet.dec.com | | Digital Equipment Corporation | (non-work): mbg@world.std.com | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "Still real-time after all these | | (603) 881 1055 | years." | +--------------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Curious about 10s. Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 06:07:02 -0500 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 56 Message-ID: <349903D6.1BDD2193@stoneweb.com> References: <66gg3a$r8g$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <66rve9$a0t$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <67a2cc$mbg$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: zephyr.ultranet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 18 Dec 1997 11:07:09 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-sea-19.sprintlink.net!news-in-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!199.232.56.18!news.ultranet.com!not-for-mail D. Peschel, in article nr. <67a2cc$mbg$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu>, wrote: > > I'm curious about the undocumented aspects of the -10 family. You've > mentioned interrupts; other people mentioned device drivers, single > instructions that have dangerous/subtle/mysterious effects, and > pipelining. Weren't the -10's generally asynchronous? There was some limited pipelining done in the -10 line, at least in the later models. Usually this had to do with beginning a fetch before the previous instruction completed. The PDP-6 (the -10's progenitor) and the KA-10 were asynchronous machines, the KI-10 was a synchronous time-state machine, and the KL- and KS-10 were microcode implementations (pretty much by definition synchronous). > So: Are there other things that are undocumented? And since they > _are_ undocumented, how do people magically know how to explot them? One of the reasons that the -10 looms so large in hacker (_true_ hacker, that is - not the modern usage) lore is that one got to spend lots of time on them and learn all the little ins and outs of them. Usually an undocumented "oddity" (unlike now where an un- documented problem is a "bug" and a documented one a "feature") would be discovered by accident and some enterprising soul would find a way to exploit it to advantage (speed or code size). If a "thingy" was particularly nasty, DEC would issue an ECO to fix it (the floating point divide comes to mind). If it wasn't too bad, it'd get left alone. To give an idea of the level -10 "heads" went to, one never used the "JUMP" instruction to branch to another location, one used "JRST" (Jump and ResTore flags) with no flag bits set. It used fewer CPU cycles and, hence, was a smidgen faster than "JUMP". Note that this behaviour is _not_ a bug. > (Perhaps all the sneaky code was written at DEC, as opposed to MIT > or Stanford?) I suspect that "sneaky code" came from everywhere about equally. Sometimes finding a "bug" in a machine you can exploit to improve performance is a Good Thing. Of course being "bug-compatible" is _very_ difficult to get right in a simulator and usually requires a set of logic prints and microcode listings (if applicable) to model the code after. -- ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| ###### From: Erik Naggum Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Curious about 10s. Date: 18 Dec 1997 16:55:29 +0000 Organization: Naggum Software; +47 8800 8879; http://www.naggum.no Lines: 16 Message-ID: <3091452929606768@naggum.no> References: <66gg3a$r8g$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <66rve9$a0t$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <67a2cc$mbg$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu> <349903D6.1BDD2193@stoneweb.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: naggum.no mail-copies-to: never X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 2000/no MULE Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!europa.clark.net!205.252.116.205!howland.erols.net!recycled.news.erols.com!news-feed.ifi.uio.no!Norway.EU.net!not-for-mail * Carl R. Friend | To give an idea of the level -10 "heads" went to, one never used the | "JUMP" instruction to branch to another location, one used "JRST" (Jump | and ResTore flags) with no flag bits set. It used fewer CPU cycles and, | hence, was a smidgen faster than "JUMP". Note that this behaviour is | _not_ a bug. I remember when I tried to use the intuitively named "JUMP" instruction, and nothing happened. turns out that "SKIP" and "JUMP" were conditional and that the default condition was "never". "JUMPA" would Always jump. (just another reason why people never used the "JUMP" instruction... :) #\Erik -- If you think this year is number 97, | Help fight MULE in GNU Emacs 20! _you_ are not "Year 2000 Compliant". | http://sourcery.naggum.no/emacs/ ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Curious about 10s. References: <66rve9$a0t$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <67a2cc$mbg$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu> <349903D6.1BDD2193@stoneweb.com> Organization: D Bit, Troy, NY From: wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson) NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com Message-ID: <34997aab.0@news.wizvax.net> Date: 18 Dec 97 19:34:03 GMT Lines: 16 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!newsfeed.wizvax.net!news.wizvax.net!dbit.com!wilson In article <349903D6.1BDD2193@stoneweb.com>, Carl R. Friend wrote: > To give an idea of the level -10 "heads" went to, one never used >the "JUMP" instruction to branch to another location, one used >"JRST" (Jump and ResTore flags) with no flag bits set. It used fewer >CPU cycles and, hence, was a smidgen faster than "JUMP". Note >that this behaviour is _not_ a bug. There's nothing tricky about this from an emulation perspective though, it's just a hint that if possible you should decode the AC field in your top-level dispatch table (unless you think that that will flood your cache and thus make things worse rather than better). The JUMPA and JRST instructions do work as advertised... John Wilson D Bit ###### From: pete.fenelon@zetnet.co.uk (Pete Fenelon) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Curious about 10s. Followup-To: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Date: 19 Dec 1997 18:56:03 GMT Message-ID: <67eg03$qg4$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <34837B44.5AD8E95F@stoneweb.com> <34889994.8C0F6033@eng.pko.dec.com> <348B556D.167E@eng.pko.dec.com> <66gg3a$r8g$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <6797q4$s6g$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-164.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 BETA-950824-16colors PL0] Lines: 12 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail G. Herrmannsfeldt (gah@u.washington.edu) wrote: : I thought I knew someone working on an FPGA version of the 10, but I : don't know about that any more. : Joe Engle is doing an FPGA -8 -- I think a -10 would be a considerably hairier enterprise! pete -- Pete Fenelon, 3 Beckside Gardens, Melrosegate, York, YO1 3TX. pete.fenelon@zetnet.co.uk http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/petef ###### From: mwood@woodshed.iupui.edu (Mark H. Wood) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Curious about 10s. Followup-To: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 16:24:01 GMT Organization: La Petite Hackerie Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <66gg3a$r8g$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <66rve9$a0t$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <67a2cc$mbg$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu> <349903D6.1BDD2193@stoneweb.com> <3091452929606768@naggum.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: mhw.oit.iupui.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950515BETA PL0] Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.eng.convex.com!newsgate.duke.edu!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!131.103.1.116!news2.chicago.iagnet.net!iagnet.net!129.79.5.185!news.indiana.edu!news.iupui.edu!woodshed!mwood Erik Naggum (clerik@naggum.no) wrote: : * Carl R. Friend : | To give an idea of the level -10 "heads" went to, one never used the : | "JUMP" instruction to branch to another location, one used "JRST" (Jump : | and ResTore flags) with no flag bits set. It used fewer CPU cycles and, : | hence, was a smidgen faster than "JUMP". Note that this behaviour is : | _not_ a bug. : : I remember when I tried to use the intuitively named "JUMP" instruction, : and nothing happened. turns out that "SKIP" and "JUMP" were conditional : and that the default condition was "never". "JUMPA" would Always jump. : (just another reason why people never used the "JUMP" instruction... :) It used to be a favorite saying of mine that "SKIP doesn't skip and JUMP doesn't jump." The -10 architecture is full of no-operations like these or, say, SETMM (which could have far-reaching side effects on paged machines, even though it didn't affect its operands in any way). To say that such instructions were never used is going a bit far, since (on the earlier implementations, at least) they had precise timing characteristics and could be used for various kinds of delays. Or they might be chosen because placeholder instructions were needed and it was neat-o to use a different instruction each time. Obviously JUMP wasn't used to alter the location counter, 'cos it wouldn't, but I'm sure that it *was* used. In fact, I recall someone's claiming that he had used every single instruction in the -10 repertoire, even though some were (at first glance) useless, redundant, or even ridiculous. -- Mark H. Wood Speaking, as always, for himself MWOOD@INDYVAX.IUPUI.EDU Our nation suffers from too little leadership, and far too much management. ###### From: mwood@woodshed.iupui.edu (Mark H. Wood) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Curious about 10s. Followup-To: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 16:34:41 GMT Organization: La Petite Hackerie Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <34837B44.5AD8E95F@stoneweb.com> <34889994.8C0F6033@eng.pko.dec.com> <348B556D.167E@eng.pko.dec.com> <66gg3a$r8g$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <6797q4$s6g$1@nntp4.u.washington.edu> <67eg03$qg4$1@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <349B3862.446B@s054.aone.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: mhw.oit.iupui.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950515BETA PL0] Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.eng.convex.com!newsgate.duke.edu!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!131.103.1.116!news2.chicago.iagnet.net!iagnet.net!129.79.5.185!news.indiana.edu!news.iupui.edu!woodshed!mwood Mark & Suzanne (gcs@s054.aone.net.au) wrote: [deletia] : I think if the target was PDP-6 or maybe KA10 it would not be that bad. : Its certianly not a linear scale in difficulty this is how I would : rate them from easiest to most difficult :- : : PDP-6 : KA10 : KI10 : KS10 : KL10-Ax no extened addressing : KL10-Bx with extend addressing : KC10-xx or KL10-Cx or whatever jupiter was meant to be called Wow! Let me know when you have the KC10 emulator running! :-) We were just *itching* to get our hands on a DECSYSTEM-2080 when we got the word that there wasn't going to *be* one. Rats. I will never forget the wistful feeling I had, perusing Monitor listings and seeing all the comments: "Support the 2080", knowing that I'd never see those fixes in action. -- Mark H. Wood Speaking, as always, for himself MWOOD@INDYVAX.IUPUI.EDU Our nation suffers from too little leadership, and far too much management. ###### From: JCGreen@ix.netcom.com (John C Green Jr) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Curious about 10s. Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 03:42:31 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 44 Message-ID: <68hnrr$mnm@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> References: <34837B44.5AD8E95F@stoneweb.com> <34889994.8C0F6033@eng.pko.dec.com> <348B556D.167E@eng.pko.dec.com> <66gg3a$r8g$1@shell3.ba.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sjc-ca7-33.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jan 01 7:44:59 PM PST 1998 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.wildstar.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!netnews.com!ix.netcom.com!news mbg@world.std.com (Megan) wrote: >Mark & Suzanne writes: >>Maybe the PDP-6 would make an interesting Uni project the only trouble >>is I think may not find any OS for it. >Or much in the way of documentation, either. So unless someone >remembers and documents the differences between it and the KA, >then it will be more difficult... but then again, what software >would you run on it? Someone got something squirreled away for >a rainy day? One difference was on PDP-6 400000,000000 / 2 = 0 instead of 600000,000000. This was reported in 1969 on the KA10 as a FORTRAN bug. The FORTRAN compiler maintainer, not one of DEC's wizards, looked at the code, single stepped with DDT and submitted it as a DDT bug. The DDT maintainer determined that the hardware was getting the wrong answer. Alan Kotok verified it by using his KSR-35 to login to KA10 #2. He checked the flowchart, saw the bug. He couldn't believe Leo Gossell's diagnostics didn't check this edge case. Checking the sources he saw that Leo had checked this case. Unfortunately his simulation (not using the IDIV instruction under test) implemented the algorithm in the flowchart, which had the bug. Kotok thought the bug might have been in the PDP-6 also. He returned to his KSR-35, switched his A-B box from KA10 to PDP-6 and logged on. Sure enough the PDP-6 had the bug too. An ECO was issued for the KA10. Alan said, "The last thing you want to do to a PDP-6 is get a soldering iron near its wiring." No ECO was issued for the PDP-6. Anyone have a program that depends on this PDP-6 bug? :-) - - - RP10 (controller for RP02) Project Engineer 21483 Old Mine Rd (408)353-1870 Los Gatos CA 95030 JCGreen@ix.netcom.com ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Curious about 10s. Date: Sat, 03 Jan 98 08:49:56 GMT Message-ID: <883817396snz@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <68ivu3$f0r$2@decius.ultra.net> Reply-To: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-User: unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-Path: post-10.mail.demon.net!post.mail.demon.net!tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 883822176 15311 unclebob tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.29 Lines: 16 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!unclebob In article <68ivu3$f0r$2@decius.ultra.net> jmfbahxx@ma.ultranet.com writes: > must have been in the late 70s) that involved finding the > results of 0/0. Every processor (KA/KI/KL/KS) had a _different_ Incidentally, the Transputer correctly generated the 0/0 NAN if you did this in floating point. The C printf would then output this as the string "NAN 0/0". I remember how I jumped when I first saw that one. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: JCGreen@ix.netcom.com (John C Green Jr) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Curious about 10s. Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 04:24:18 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 31 Message-ID: <68pnef$kme@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> References: <34837B44.5AD8E95F@stoneweb.com> <34889994.8C0F6033@eng.pko.dec.com> <348B556D.167E@eng.pko.dec.com> <66gg3a$r8g$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <68hnrr$mnm@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <68ivu3$f0r$2@decius.ultra.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: sjc-ca8-36.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jan 04 8:26:55 PM PST 1998 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.onenet.net!news.oru.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ix.netcom.com!news jmfbahxx@ma.ultranet.com wrote: >In article <68hnrr$mnm@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, > JCGreen@ix.netcom.com (John C Green Jr) wrote: >>mbg@world.std.com (Megan) wrote: >> >>[SNIP] >> >>One difference was on PDP-6 400000,000000 / 2 = 0 instead of >>600000,000000. >> >>An ECO was issued for the KA10. Alan said, "The last thing >>you want to do to a PDP-6 is get a soldering iron near its >>wiring." No ECO was issued for the PDP-6. >> >>Anyone have a program that depends on this PDP-6 bug? :-) >I remember Jim Flemming doing a little research project (it >must have been in the late 70s) that involved finding the >results of 0/0. Every processor (KA/KI/KL/KS) had a _different_ >result. But I don't know any of details. CDO? Do you remember? >I don't even remember what started the project. I do remember >Jim being tickled to death about it :-). Nope. I was only at DEC for 21 months from JUN1968 to FEB1970. Then went on to Systems Concepts. - - - RP10 (controller for RP02) Project Engineer 21483 Old Mine Rd (408)353-1870 Los Gatos CA 95030 JCGreen@ix.netcom.com ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers From: alderson@netcom17.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) Subject: Re: Curious about 10s. In-Reply-To: JCGreen@ix.netcom.com's message of Mon, 05 Jan 1998 04:24:18 GMT Message-ID: Sender: alderson@netcom17.netcom.com Reply-To: alderson@netcom.com Organization: NETCOM On-line services References: <34837B44.5AD8E95F@stoneweb.com> <34889994.8C0F6033@eng.pko.dec.com> <348B556D.167E@eng.pko.dec.com> <66gg3a$r8g$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <68hnrr$mnm@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <68ivu3$f0r$2@decius.ultra.net> <68pnef$kme@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 18:39:26 GMT Lines: 14 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.structured.net!news-out.communique.net!communique!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom17!alderson In article <68pnef$kme@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> JCGreen@ix.netcom.com (John C Green Jr) writes: >I was only at DEC for 21 months from JUN1968 to FEB1970. >Then went on to Systems Concepts. Were you still with Mike and Stewart when they delivered an SC-30M to Stanford in 1986? I didn't meet everyone at SC; mostly, I worked with Fred Wright, and occasionally Bertram or Pete Sampsen. -- Rich Alderson You know the sort of thing that you can find in any dictionary of a strange language, and which so excites the amateur philo- logists, itching to derive one tongue from another that they know better: a word that is nearly the same in form and meaning as the corresponding word in English, or Latin, or Hebrew, or what not. --J. R. R. Tolkien, alderson@netcom.com _The Notion Club Papers_ ###### From: JCGreen@ix.netcom.com (John C Green Jr) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Curious about 10s. Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 23:38:54 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 32 Message-ID: <68rr3g$4nd@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <34837B44.5AD8E95F@stoneweb.com> <34889994.8C0F6033@eng.pko.dec.com> <348B556D.167E@eng.pko.dec.com> <66gg3a$r8g$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <68hnrr$mnm@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <68ivu3$f0r$2@decius.ultra.net> <68pnef$kme@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sjc-ca4-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jan 05 5:41:36 PM CST 1998 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.structured.net!news-out.communique.net!communique!recycled.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!ix.netcom.com!news alderson@netcom17.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) wrote: >In article <68pnef$kme@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> JCGreen@ix.netcom.com >(John C Green Jr) writes: >>I was only at DEC for 21 months from JUN1968 to FEB1970. >>Then went on to Systems Concepts. >Were you still with Mike and Stewart when they delivered an SC-30M to Stanford >in 1986? I didn't meet everyone at SC; mostly, I worked with Fred Wright, and >occasionally Bertram or Pete Sampsen. Nope. By then I was at Alliant and delivered an FX/8 to a room full of DEC-10 stuff. Looked like a museum. Len Bosack gave me a tour. Their KA-10 was used rarely; the sole purpose for keeping it was to read an occational paper tape. I'm still friends with Mike and Stew and will see them again MLK Jr weekend when I'm in Reno to play in a SCRABBLE tournament. The crew when I was there was Mike, Stew, Jack Holloway, and Fred plus me as #5. I left before Pete Samson started. I knew him from TMRC in Cambridge when he was at MIT and I was at DEC but never worked with him at SC or anywhere else. - - - RP10 (controller for RP02) Project Engineer 21483 Old Mine Rd (408)353-1870 Los Gatos CA 95030 JCGreen@ix.netcom.com