From: Grant Connolly Newsgroups: alt.consciousness.near-death-exp Subject: What do I believe... Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 01:25:02 -0500 Organization: Bell Solutions Lines: 26 Message-ID: <350B743E.1C4A@sympatico.ca> Reply-To: grant.connolly@sympatico.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.172.223.89 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news21.bellglobal.com 889942978 27492 (None) 206.172.223.89 X-Complaints-To: usenet@news20.bellglobal.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA (Win95; U) Path: ccw.ch!bali.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.sovam.com!sovam!news3.bellglobal.com!news1.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com!not-for-mail There comes a time when we as individuals must sit down and determine what we really believe to be true in life. What is the sum total of all the experiences we've had and what does that lead us to believe? Here is what I believe: I believe that when my body dies, that which is truly me will continue elsewhere. I will not die. I know that I cannot prove this, but I am not here to provide proof for anyone. I believe that I must make the most of my time here and that my highest purpose is to form positive relationships with those I meet in this life. I am responsible and accountable for the time I spend here. I believe that I must help others, not by pushing my beliefs down their throats, but by helping them find their own truths. In helping others I recognize that I am truly helping myself. I believe that I am capable of all things whether good or bad, great or despicable. I am human and am learning to forgive myself. And finally, I believe in God and give thanks for my awareness of Him. I submit the above because I have found it useful to remind myself what it is I believe, not what someone tells me to believe or tries to convince me to believe. What do YOU believe.... ###### From: empath@skipper.spamblock.org (Empath) Newsgroups: alt.consciousness.near-death-exp,alt.consciousness.4th-way,alt.fan.art-bell,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: What do I believe... Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 10:10:34 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 55 Message-ID: <350c90bb.22173269@enews.newsguy.com> References: <350B743E.1C4A@sympatico.ca> Reply-To: empath@skipper.spamblock.org NNTP-Posting-Host: p-156.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.01/32.397 X-No-Archive: yes Path: ccw.ch!bali.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news-dc-1.sprintlink.net!news-east.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!pln-e!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Grant Connolly wrote: >There comes a time when we as individuals must sit down and determine >what we really believe to be true in life. What is the sum total of all >the experiences we've had and what does that lead us to believe? Why MUST we? Belief isn't based on experience. Those that wish to believe, will find evidence for their belief. Those that wish not to believe, will find evidence also. Belief at times is simply a form of denial. > >Here is what I believe: > >I believe that when my body dies, that which is truly me will continue >elsewhere. I will not die. I know that I cannot prove this, but I am not >here to provide proof for anyone. > >I believe that I must make the most of my time here and that my highest >purpose is to form positive relationships with those I meet in this >life. I am responsible and accountable for the time I spend here. > >I believe that I must help others, not by pushing my beliefs down their >throats, but by helping them find their own truths. In helping others I >recognize that I am truly helping myself. > >I believe that I am capable of all things whether good or bad, great or >despicable. I am human and am learning to forgive myself. > >And finally, I believe in God and give thanks for my awareness of Him. > >I submit the above because I have found it useful to remind myself what >it is I believe, not what someone tells me to believe or tries to >convince me to believe. What do YOU believe.... To believe is to give up. Believing means to go no farther in your pursuit of truth. That which I believe is not based on experience, signs, or evidence. That which I believe is based on heart felt desire. Beyond that, I use the word "believe" very sparingly. Let me be judged by what is in my heart, not by intellectual conclusion.. I believe in a creator with a purpose. I believe that purpose, or God's will and kingdom, moves steadily toward realization. I believe our wishes (beliefs) are inconsequential unless it agrees with that purpose. I believe I'm too ignorant to know God's mind. (Try figuring out why I wish that to be true) Seek First The Kingdom. Thanks, Grant. It's a good theme. Empath ###### From: ely@tiac.net (Eric) Newsgroups: alt.consciousness.near-death-exp,alt.consciousness.4th-way,alt.fan.art-bell,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: What do I believe... Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 12:05:13 GMT Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc. Lines: 61 Message-ID: <6egfre$gan@news-central.tiac.net> References: <350B743E.1C4A@sympatico.ca> <350c90bb.22173269@enews.newsguy.com> Reply-To: ely@tiac.net NNTP-Posting-Host: p24.tc1.metro.ma.tiac.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Path: ccw.ch!bali.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news-dc-1.sprintlink.net!news-east.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!howland.erols.net!news-feed1.tiac.net!posterchild2!news@tiac.net Conclusion signifies an end to inquiry, not belief. empath@skipper.spamblock.org (Empath) wrote: >Grant Connolly wrote: >>There comes a time when we as individuals must sit down and determine >>what we really believe to be true in life. What is the sum total of all >>the experiences we've had and what does that lead us to believe? >Why MUST we? Belief isn't based on experience. Those that wish to >believe, will find evidence for their belief. Those that wish not to >believe, will find evidence also. Belief at times is simply a form of >denial. >> >>Here is what I believe: >> >>I believe that when my body dies, that which is truly me will continue >>elsewhere. I will not die. I know that I cannot prove this, but I am not >>here to provide proof for anyone. >> >>I believe that I must make the most of my time here and that my highest >>purpose is to form positive relationships with those I meet in this >>life. I am responsible and accountable for the time I spend here. >> >>I believe that I must help others, not by pushing my beliefs down their >>throats, but by helping them find their own truths. In helping others I >>recognize that I am truly helping myself. >> >>I believe that I am capable of all things whether good or bad, great or >>despicable. I am human and am learning to forgive myself. >> >>And finally, I believe in God and give thanks for my awareness of Him. >> >>I submit the above because I have found it useful to remind myself what >>it is I believe, not what someone tells me to believe or tries to >>convince me to believe. What do YOU believe.... >To believe is to give up. Believing means to go no farther in your >pursuit of truth. That which I believe is not based on experience, >signs, or evidence. That which I believe is based on heart felt >desire. Beyond that, I use the word "believe" very sparingly. >Let me be judged by what is in my heart, not by intellectual >conclusion.. >I believe in a creator with a purpose. >I believe that purpose, or God's will and kingdom, moves steadily >toward realization. >I believe our wishes (beliefs) are inconsequential unless it agrees >with that purpose. >I believe I'm too ignorant to know God's mind. (Try figuring out why >I wish that to be true) >Seek First The Kingdom. >Thanks, Grant. It's a good theme. >Empath ###### From: Look@mysig.emailthere (*DrPostman/) Newsgroups: alt.consciousness.near-death-exp,alt.consciousness.4th-way,alt.fan.art-bell,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: What do I believe... Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 21:38:13 GMT Organization: A.S.S.F.U.C. -American Association of Spam Free Usenet Crusaders Lines: 26 Message-ID: <350d4915.4041809@news.mindspring.com> References: <350B743E.1C4A@sympatico.ca> <350c90bb.22173269@enews.newsguy.com> Reply-To: Look@mysig.emailthere NNTP-Posting-Host: pool-207-205-131-136.atln.grid.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Server-Date: 15 Mar 1998 21:35:36 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: ccw.ch!bali.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news-dc-1.sprintlink.net!news-east.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.mindspring.com!not-for-mail empath@skipper.spamblock.org (Empath) wrote: >Why MUST we? Belief isn't based on experience. Those that wish to >believe, will find evidence for their belief. Those that wish not to >believe, will find evidence also. Belief at times is simply a form of >denial. Why can't belief be based on experience? What I believe in has been shaped by my experiences, especially in the last 10 years. If you are talking about religious belief then I can agree, or perhaps I am a bit confused as to what you mean. I'm not getting into any arguments about any musts - just wondering what you folks think. For an example - my recovery began by being based upon watching and listening to other folks in my fellowship - wouldn't that be belief? -- Dr.Postman USPS, MBMC, BsD; "Disgruntled, But Unarmed" High Counselor of the New Usenet Order Addicted to Art Bell? http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1282 Member,Board of Directors of afa-b, Lifetime member of the Art Bell Internet Fan Club, SKEP-TI-CULTŪ member #15-51506-253. You can email me at: jamiemps(at)mindspring.com ###### From: Look@mysig.emailthere (*DrPostman/) Newsgroups: alt.consciousness.near-death-exp,alt.consciousness.4th-way,alt.fan.art-bell,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: What do I believe... Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:37:53 GMT Organization: A.S.S.F.U.C. -American Association of Spam Free Usenet Crusaders Lines: 34 Message-ID: <351062f2.2704705@news.mindspring.com> References: <350B743E.1C4A@sympatico.ca> <350c90bb.22173269@enews.newsguy.com> <350d4915.4041809@news.mindspring.com> <350da5b8.15511430@news.ionet.net> Reply-To: Look@mysig.emailthere NNTP-Posting-Host: pool-207-205-130-110.atln.grid.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Server-Date: 16 Mar 1998 17:35:24 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: ccw.ch!bali.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!feeder.qis.net!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!newsfeed.internetmci.com!207.69.200.121!news.mindspring.com!usenet lekatt@ionet.net (Leroy Kattein) wrote: >Your watching and listening is experience. When one experiences an >event then the belief turns into knowledge and becomes "knowing" >instead of just belief. There can be a blurring of the perimeters of >belief and knowing, however. One can believe in a Creator without >experiencing the Creator. But, as in a NDE where one experiences a >Creator, then that experience turns into knowing, at least for the >experiencer it does. > >Others looking only at the story the experiencer has to tell may only >believe, not believe, or withhold judgement of it, whatever their >choice may be. But they don't have the right to criticize another's >experience. > >Our language is far from being precise. Words are ambiguous and >different people hold different meanings to them. It is the idea or >concept that is important. Not picking at every word of a post. Ok, I can agree with that. I once had a sponsor say to me that what he believes in the deepest he cannot explain rationally. I cannot tell you exactly what my beliefs are except in general terms. -- Dr.Postman USPS, MBMC, BsD; "Disgruntled, But Unarmed" High Counselor of the New Usenet Order Addicted to Art Bell? http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1282 Member,Board of Directors of afa-b, Lifetime member of the Art Bell Internet Fan Club, SKEP-TI-CULTŪ member #15-51506-253. You can email me at: jamiemps(at)mindspring.com ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil.Franklin.remove.this@ccw.ch Newsgroups: alt.consciousness.near-death-exp,alt.consciousness.4th-way,alt.fan.art-bell,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: What do I believe... Date: 16 Mar 1998 20:37:29 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 47 Message-ID: References: <350B743E.1C4A@sympatico.ca> <350c90bb.22173269@enews.newsguy.com> <350d4915.4041809@news.mindspring.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 empath@skipper.spamblock.org (Empath) wrote: >Why MUST we? Belief isn't based on experience. Those that wish to >believe, will find evidence for their belief. Those that wish not to >believe, will find evidence also. Belief at times is simply a form of >denial. Look@mysig.emailthere (*DrPostman/) objected: > Why can't belief be based on experience? What I believe in has been > shaped by my experiences, especially in the last 10 years. Actually belief is based on interpreting experience. That in contrast to knowledge that is based directly on experience. An example to illustrate the point: When I experience an piece of material, say wood, I experience that it is hard, stiff, heavy exc. So I _know_ from then on that wood is hard/stiff/heavy, from eperience. But then the process starts of trying to _explain_ why wood is so. For this I produce speculative ideas (called hypothesis) about why this should be so (such as "stick corpuscles", AKA atoms). Then I select the most appealing (= least contradicting) and use that as belief. > If you are > talking about religious belief then I can agree, or perhaps I am a bit > confused as to what you mean. All beliefs are beliefs, nature, sociology, religion, science... They are all attempts to describe what is happening, all not provable, just all subject to being possibly falsified. Until then pick your favourite and hope it is right. But see also the next mail for continuation of this point. > For an example - my recovery began by being based upon watching > and listening to other folks in my fellowship - wouldn't that be > belief? No. That would be experience, and so lead to knowledge, about how they behave. Belief started whey you started speculationg about the how and why. -- private: Neil.Franklin.remove.this@ccw.ch, http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ office: franklin.remove.this@arch.ethz.ch, http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ If I go missing, its once again my newsfeed that has craped ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil.Franklin.remove.this@ccw.ch Newsgroups: alt.consciousness.near-death-exp,alt.consciousness.4th-way,alt.fan.art-bell,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: What do I believe... Date: 16 Mar 1998 21:02:03 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 98 Message-ID: <90qammkk.fsf@chonsp.franklin.lugs.ch> References: <350B743E.1C4A@sympatico.ca> <350c90bb.22173269@enews.newsguy.com> <350d4915.4041809@news.mindspring.com> <350da5b8.15511430@news.ionet.net> <351062f2.2704705@news.mindspring.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 lekatt@ionet.net (Leroy Kattein) wrote: >Your watching and listening is experience. Up to now I agree, actually "is" -> "gives". > When one experiences an >event then the belief turns into knowledge and becomes "knowing" >instead of just belief. Just the other way round. Knowledge is the direct thing (see previous post), belief follows when trying to explain what one knows. > There can be a blurring of the perimeters of >belief and knowing, however. More likely: belief is blurry (because speculative) while knowledge is focused (becuase experienced). > One can believe in a Creator without >experiencing the Creator. Of course, the same as one can believe in atoms without ever having experienced them (have you ever?). That is the normal case with beliefs, else you would have knowledge. > But, as in a NDE where one experiences a >Creator, then that experience turns into knowing, at least for the >experiencer it does. And then you commit the error. One does not experience "a/the creator". One experiences (and such knows about) an great light of love (or did you see the light doing creation?). One may or may not then speculate a belief that this light has something to do with an equally speculative being/intelligence responsible for creating the universe. But that is belief, not knowledge, not even after NDE. One can: 1. grab the first belief that one likes (the method of religion) 2. become aware of multiple beliefs and systematically find arguments for and against them (the method of science) 3. become aware if the undecidability and drop the futile search for the "real belief" (the method of buddhist and cartesian philosophy) >Others looking only at the story the experiencer has to tell may only >believe, not believe, or withhold judgement of it, whatever their >choice may be. They can: a) decide to believe or not believe the story of the experience (this is believe in the sense of "truth/lieing(1)", not "liking/disliking speculation(1)" b) decide to follow or reject the experiencers choice of speculation to believe. As an example: I believe(1) the story of NDE happening, but I do not believe(2) the speculation of the light being a/the creator. > But they don't have the right to criticize another's >experience. The experience not, but they do have the right to criticise chosen beliefs being peddled as the proven truth. >Our language is far from being precise. Words are ambiguous and >different people hold different meanings to them. It is the idea or >concept that is important. Not picking at every word of a post. Word picking may be not optimal, but it does demonstrate to the writer that he may have been misunderstood. That will hopefully lead to clarifications, to an agreement what the word should mean (at least temporally for this discussion) and then one can discuss whether the ideas convayed are right or wrong. Look@mysig.emailthere (*DrPostman/) answered: >Ok, I can agree with that. I once had a sponsor say to me that >what he believes in the deepest he cannot explain rationally. I >cannot tell you exactly what my beliefs are except in general terms. Ratio is not that limited, just most people never learned to really make use of it. Precise usage (and definition) of words is only the beginning. That brush with buddhism certainly helped me in that respect. -- private: Neil.Franklin.remove.this@ccw.ch, http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ office: franklin.remove.this@arch.ethz.ch, http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ If I go missing, its once again my newsfeed that has craped